216 - Internal Family Systems & Addiction w/ Jenna Riemersma

You're listening to the Pure Desire podcast. Your safe place to find hope, healing and freedom from sexual addiction, betrayal and relationship issues. Hey, hey, hey. I'm your host, Trevor Windsor and you're listening to episode 216 of the Pure Desire podcast. Here joining me as always, my co host, Nick Stumbo.

Under the sea, under the sea. Are you gonna finish it, darling? It's better down where it's wetter. Take it from me.

Do do, do do do. One of the Disney movies we haven't watched yet.

Really?

With Brady, our four year old. Yes.

You know, you may not want to. I've been listening to a podcast series by Malcolm Gladwell which is a favorite of mine. Some listeners know that. But he is right now doing a three part series on the the evils, if you will, of the Little Mermaid.

Oh man. Like Ursula?

No, it's fascinating because it's more about what it does with a contract or the law that Ariel signs and really asking the question like what are we teaching our kids about the fact that an evil person holds the power of the law and even when good people doing the right thing want to break it, they're powerless. That is not why I did that intro. The intro is just because we are getting into the themes of our upcoming summit and this below the surface idea of looking at what's going on in our life under the surface of what people see. And Jenna Reimersma, our guest today, talking about this internal family systems. That's a lot of. It's like going below the waterline of my life and looking at what's going on in there and making sense of it. So the tie into the Little Mermaid is from there and not actually from Malcolm Gladwell.

Okay, fair. But this is the first episode of a two parter that we have with Jenna Reimersma and today we're talking about ifs and addiction specifically to people who have sexual brokenness, sexually acting out, sexually addicted. And it really, really is an excellent episode. She has so much really to to offer. This therapy model is fascinating and is really, really powerful. And you know, she's a speaker at our upcoming summit and we're really, really excited about that. She's going to be speaking two sessions and just so you know, if like it's only like three weeks away and so if you can't make it to Troutdale, Oregon September 10 and 11 to be at Harvest Christian Church, it's okay. We are offering a fully virtual registration. So you just go to PureDesire.org summit and you can register for that and you will get to hear Jenna just rock it. But a couple things real quick. Before we get into our time with Jenna today, subscribe to the podcast. We're on all the major platforms. Follow us on social media and listen. I don't usually pause on this one. I usually just go right through this one. But you need right now to stop listening to this episode. I mean, don't. But do stop listening to this episode.

This is quite.

Pull over.

Do whatever you need to do to pull this up on YouTube and watch it. Because Jenna is an excellent teacher and communicator. But the visuals that she uses, if you've seen the episode we did with her before, you know, visuals are a huge part of her communication when it comes to internal family systems. So if you want to listen to it now and then watch it later, great. If you want to pause it and now and watch it later, great. This stuff, you need to watch it. We have the full episode up on YouTube.

Yeah. And buckle up because it's good.

It's deep.

It's lengthy, but I think lengthy because we want people to really be able to grapple with what is kind of a new concept, a new lens. And I think there's just so much good that comes from going under the surface and looking at these parts. And this week through the lens of addiction. And we really tried to ask some specific questions of help us understand addiction through this IFS lens. And then next week on the betrayal side.

Yep. So here is part one of our conversation with Jenna Reimersma and we are talking about internal family systems and addiction. Jenna Reimersma, welcome back to the Pure Desire podcast. We are super excited to have you.

Glad to be back. Thanks, Trevor.

The last time I saw you, I was sitting in on the ITAP PSAP mod one and got to experience IFS for an entire day. It was amazing. And you really, you press into this, you're one of the teaching faculty for itap, but you also, and we've talked about it a lot with the last time, which I'm just going to tell you, it's one of the most watched videos we have on our channel is the different parts of me where we explored that. And people continually talk to me about the props that you used. And I'm just telling you right now, listener and viewer, there are going to be more today, more props in use. But Jenna, you are also going to be speaking at next month's summit. You are a keynote speaker. We're really, really excited to have you in person. Praise the Lord. Take that, Covid. And so we just wanted to take this opportunity with your new book and your counseling and its focus on the therapy model called Internal Family Systems. It's a really powerful and fascinating model that we wanted to just see how it plays out with addictions. And then we're going to do a follow up episode after this on also how it integrates with betrayal, what it looks like in that. So for our listeners, if maybe they haven't listened to that episode, maybe Internal Family Systems is a new model. Can you just give us a real quick breakdown and description of the IFS therapy model?

Yeah, you bet. IFS Internal Family Systems is a way of understanding human behavior that really conceptualizes each of us as a human being with at our core, what I would call the God image within every one of us. IFS calls it our self or our authentic self. And it is always there all the time. And it is always comprised of positive healing qualities. IFS calls this the 8C qualities. Calm, courageous, curious, compassionate, connected. Lots of different C words. Then we all have many different parts that just create our own unique personalities. When difficult things happen in life, our parts become burdened with the pain of those difficult things. The parts of us that become burdened with our negative emotions, our negative beliefs, we call our exile parts. That's because the stuff that they're feeling doesn't feel really good. And all the rest of our system wants to exile them. Then we have protector parts that try to protect us from the pain of the exiles. Those are parts that become burdened with jobs that are trying to be helpful and they wind up making the problem worse. There's two types of those. There's proactive ones that are called managers, and they try to prevent the pain of the exiles from getting activated. They do things like controlling people, pleasing perfectionism, those types of things. That old inner critic is one of our managers. And then we have the reactive protectors. Those are called firefighters. And they jump in to try to put out the pain of the exiles when it gets activated. So those are the parts of us that do things like act out with alcohol, act out sexually, that compulsively overeat, dissociate, self, harm, rage, those types of things. So we all have a core self. We have exiles that hold our pain. And we have two types of protectors, proactive and reactive. That's kind of the Internal Family Systems model.

This is why she's the pro. She can just boom, boom, boom, boom. There it is.

Yeah, I have a feeling that. Jenna, you've answered that question a few times before. Like, give us the overview.

Yes.

So the parts of our God image or core self, the exiles and the protectors and together. Is that what makes what you would call the family, like the idea that we all have this internal family of. Of voices, so to speak, that are interacting with us and with one another?

Yeah. It's this idea that within us, it's really a complete opposite approach of understanding human beings than this idea that we are all one singular monolith. And that idea would tell us that if we feel something or if we struggle with the behavior that is all of who we are. So if I deal with anxiety, then my statement is going to be, I am anxious. Yeah. If I have a part that is. That tries to, I don't know, eat, Eat lots of Oreos, I'll say, I am an overeater. Okay. So it's my whole identity.

Yeah.

Ifs teaches us exactly the opposite, that we do have this core self that's always there. It's the image of God, I would argue. And. And it is kind of the leader of all of the different aspects of our personality internally. All these different parts of. And all the many different parts of us have their own feelings, beliefs, and goals for our lives.

Yeah. Well, I've had people ask me. They're like, well, I thought this was going to be about, like, my family of origin and my mom and my dad and like, where is the family at? But it's really more an understanding of what's going on inside of us, certainly related to our family of origin, but it's not necessarily about a study of our family. And I think that might be helpful for listeners that are new to this concept. And the other thing we found for listeners and folks in general that are new to the internal family systems idea is just what you're saying. This concept of looking at myself as these separate parts that have their own personalities and a sense of identity, a voice, even the way they talk to each other, that can feel for a lot of people, like, whoa, we've just departed firm biblical thinking and we're now way out there. But I know in truth, that's not the way you or many other IFS folks see this. And so talk a little bit about that. For those that might be a little weirded out by the parts language. Where do you see these elements in scripture? And could you give maybe an example or two of how you see ifs integrated into our spirituality and our faith?

I love this question because at first it does seem a little woo Woo. Crazy. When you think about talking to parts of yourself, that really sounds kind of out there. But part of the reason that I wrote my book altogether, you was really to integrate the power of internal family systems with spirituality, and specifically Christian spirituality, and help readers understand the overlap between the two. And when I put on the. What I call the lenses of ifs through which I really do see the world, and I picked up the pages of Scripture, I realized that literally from Genesis 1 to Revelation, parts language is throughout. So, for example, if we go back to Genesis 1:26 and we read that we're created in the image of God, well, that's one God with three parts. And then we fast forward a little bit more and we're told that God puts us into one body, the body of Christ with many different parts. And so wouldn't it make sense that we are one person with many different parts? And we really do just read this throughout the pages of Scripture, Paul, in kind of his famous Romans 7 angst, says, you know, why do I do the things I don't want to do? Doesn't that sound like every recovery group ever? I'm doing this thing?

Yes.

And it's like killing me, and I don't want to do it, but that's the thing I do. And the good thing that I want to do, I don't do that. And within me. So let's listen through the lens of ifs. There is something that desires goodness. That's the self according to ifs or the God image. But there's another law at work in my being, in my parts. And that's the law of what I would call trauma from a clinical lens, or what biblical language would call sin that takes over the parts of us and causes them to behave in ways that are not what they were designed to do. It doesn't change the goodness of the way that God created those parts, but it obscures their access to that goodness. And we hear Paul himself wrestling with this. Why do I do the things I don't want to do? Oh, there's different parts of me at war inside of me. And honestly, when I read the Psalms, I'm sort of loving this because you hear this all throughout the Psalms. David will go, oh, how long, oh, Lord, how long are you not looking at these people? Would you please zap them with a lightning bolt? And then immediately in the next sentence, he goes, but I trust in you, and my soul rests in you alone. And there's this radical flip, like you can literally see the parts of David taking him over. And it is a completely different person who's speaking in the next verse. And so it really is throughout the pages of Scripture.

Yeah, yeah, well. And I think for a lot of us, we understand how this works in our physical body, that if I have like a broken toe, I might say, boy, my. The pain in my foot is really talking to me today. Or it's. And I don't think of myself as a person in pain. My foot is in pain. There's a part of me that's hurting and it can really take over my life and my thinking for that day. But it doesn't. If I really think about it, I know it doesn't define me. And so if we could take that idea and even apply it just to kind of our emotional, mental well being, it's these parts. And I was thinking of an example that I think Jesus uses some parts language in the story of the prodigal son, because we have the prodigal son. In Luke 15, it says he came to himself and he essentially says, self, you know, even my father's hired hands at home have it better than I do. And he's like having this dialogue between a shame filled part of himself that's stuck in the mud and this probably a protector or a manager that's like, you know, we got to get out of here. This isn't going to work. Here's a solution. And he's dialoguing with himself. And that's a story that Jesus told that I think shows a way that we kind of interact with ourselves.

Yeah, I think part of it too. Because as I was hearing you talk about that, there are so many of us that probably think we're crazy because one second we're just like, my life is over and it's ruined. And then the next second you get a sip of coffee and you're like, oh my gosh, today's fine. I'm totally good. Like, let's go do this. So there's this weird. And I've struggled with that, you know, And I know some people don't love this language, but for me, kind of pressing a little bit into the enneagram being a seven, like for me, joy and positivity is all I'm about. And so when I experience those lower moments during the day, those little pockets, I'm like, what is going on with me? Like, I must be so off. But when you can put that. I love that language. When you put the lens of ifs on, you can understand those are just different parts that are Talking about how they're experiencing your day, and it makes me feel less like a crazy person.

Yeah, that's exactly right. You know, it makes me think of the Garden of Gethsemane. Even Jesus himself had that very wrestling. One part of me, like, is willing to go to the cross, and another part of me says, God, please take this cup away from me. And that was not a strange thing for Jesus. So it certainly ought not be a strange thing for us. We all. We all have parts at war, and that is a normal part of being human. One of the things that I love the most about this model is that there is no pathology in this model. That when we put on the lens of ifs, there is no sense of, I am bad, I am broken. What there is is a sense of I have many different parts, and. And some of my parts, because of trauma or sin, have gotten stuck trying to help me in ways that are actually not helpful. They're actually making the problem worse. But if I get to know this part and I understand where it first started to try to help me in this way, suddenly I have compassion. And now I've opened the doorway for this part to be able to heal. And the way I understand the Christian faith journey, this is exactly the heart of God for us. I am for you. I see who you are. Like, greetings, Gideon, mighty warrior. God looks through all the wonky stuff that our parts are doing.

Yeah.

Cowering in a wine press and freaking out and having a panic attack and says, yo, I see who you truly are. I see the self, the core, the essence, the God image of who you are. And you, my beloved, are a mighty warrior.

Yeah. So let's press into that with the IFS model, how it interacts with these. Really specifically in this episode, we want to look at how it integrates or is attached to addiction and how it plays out. And so does sexual brokenness specifically impact our God image or our core as the language that you use in your book? Like, how does it. Does it impact that? Just how do those two kind of play with each other?

Yeah, it's a great question, and I think I have two parts to my response. The first is that IFS does not understand the word brokenness. So IFS is not ever going to understand or use a term sexual brokenness, because what does that convey? It conveys I'm broken. Like, there's a problem with me, and something about me is not, I am broken. And it turns out that rather than that being my belief, the way that God sees us or the way that we see ourselves through the lens of ifs, that is actually what trauma communicates to our parts. That language of brokenness, or I am broken, is actually a trauma message that parts of us carry that needs healing. The language that ifs would resonate with is a part that is trying to help, that's gotten stuck acting out sexually to try to help get needs met, either for attachment or love or, you know, self soothing, whatever it might be. So that would kind of be the first. The second question is, does having a part that's doing a wonky thing affect the God image within us? And the answer to that is very simple. No. Because by virtue of the fact that our core is the very image of the divine within us, definitionally, it cannot be tarnished. It cannot be broken. And this is radical. This is a radical concept because it changes the way that we understand the fundamental depravity of man and the burden of sin. It doesn't mean that that isn't there. What it means is that when we go from believing that we are just one entity, one singular entity. So anything that any part of us is doing or feeling or believing is all of who we are. When we have that model, then the fundamental depravity of man has to mean all of me is bad. If any one part of me is doing something bad, then all of me is bad. This lens allows us much more depth and nuance of understanding of scripture. The God image within us cannot be tarnished because it's the very image of God. Our parts, on the other hand, carry the burden of sin. And that sin obstructs. And I'm sort of putting my. If you come to the conference, you'll see my fancy schmancy props. I'm going to use plug, plug, plug plug.

We love it.

But what happens is this good part of me? If you envision, for those who don't have visual, for whom you're just audio. I've got my little fist here representing a part of me. Let's say that this part of me is a part that desires connection, healthy, intimate connection. But because of trauma, or if we want to use church language, sin in the world. Let's say that as a child, this person's early experience, experience with intimate relationships is very unsafe. Let's say mom or dad are alcoholic or yelling or raging. And this person is a small child. And those relationships that should be safe are very unsafe. And there's no one there to comfort this child. This part may get taken over by a trauma. Burden of Self soothing through masturbation. Because, let's say, for that child in that circumstance, touching their body was the only comfort that they could access in that frightening circumstance. And so what sin or trauma has done is it has overlaid on top of one part of the individual, but it has in no way tarnished the God image within. And this carries profound implications because once I came into contact with this model, all of a sudden it began to make sense to me how a God could look at me through the sinful behavior of all the different wonky things that all my parts do and see me and love me as whole. Because one burden of one of my parts does not define me and does not define you. And at our core, we are good because we are image bearers of God. Not bad at our core, I am bad. At my core is a trauma message that is not the message that God. My belief that God speaks into who we are, regardless of what any parts of us may be doing. And that's a big statement. But I believe with all of my heart, all of my clinical experience, all of my theological training, that that is the heart of God. And that's why this model is so powerful to bring about healing. There's no shame.

Somebody needs to hear that today as they're listening. They need to hear that. That at your core you're not bad, that God does see you holistically.

It helps us make sense of the scripture passages we read that talk about being made in the image of God. And David saying in the Psalms that I was fearfully and wonderfully made, I was knit together in my mother's womb. And there is some sense of theology that seems to think. But then when we were born, we were born into sin and all of us were just bad. It's like, whoa, whoa, wait a minute. What happened to all this beautiful God image and made in my mother's womb? I lost that. No, it seems to be much better alignment to say I was born into a world that created some things that covered over those pieces. And yet, as you shared in Gideon's story, the way that God still sees right through all that, because he knows the us that we made. You know, I think of the number of times I've heard Ted Roberts quote that prayer saying, lord, help me to see the person you had in mind when you created the original me. It's kind of that sense of there's this original God ordained created me that is still there. It's just become marred in my vision through all the other stuff that's happened. To me. But my growth in faith is really about learning to agree with who God already sees me as, not somehow conjuring up enough faith to become the different person that I, you know, I really ought to be, which I think a lot of us have suffered under. Like, well, if I could only become that better person versus what if that God created person. And that core is already there. And I'm just trying to learn how to more consistently reconnect with it through the work of the Holy Spirit in my life.

Yeah, I've heard people talk about it like you're shoulding on yourself, like, which is just, you know, it's like, ironic and kind of funny, but it's true. We do, we hear that message that if only I could do this, or if I was only able to do that, then somehow I would. Which the irony of all of it is, like scripture makes it really clear we don't earn God's love or his salvation or favor in any capacity. But yet we still fall into that narrative in that way of thinking.

Yeah, yeah, for sure. For sure. And it's a real cognitive dissonance that I think we are not really encouraged to think critically about. You know, how can it be that it's by grace you've been saved and this is a gift. It's not through works. And yet, if only we could try harder, pray more, nail it to the cross, give it to Jesus, get on over there, closer to God. And there's this real cognitive dissonance in our experience sometimes. And the beauty of seeing ourselves through the lens of ifs is it's not only that God sees our core and sees our core as a reflection of his image, and that is profoundly good, but it actually goes even deeper than that. God sees all the parts of us, and he calls them good as well. Not that the behavior that their trauma has trapped them in is good, but the part itself is fundamentally good. And this is where the phrase that just resonates so much with me comes from. All parts of you are welcome. All parts of you and of me are good. Even if they've gotten stuck with being overlapped and taken over, hijacked by a trauma burden, they are still good, and they are all welcome. So it's not even this sense that, well, who you are at your core is good because, you know, that reflects the image of God. But these parts of you are bad, and these parts of you are good, and we're going to kind of sift them out. No, no, no. All. All of who we are good. And all parts of us get stuck sometimes because of trauma or if we want to use church language, sin. And they get stuck in behaviors that aren't helpful, even though they're trying hard to help. And when we have that space of compassion and curiosity with all the different parts of us, even the parts that are really hard to love, like the inner critic or the part that's acting out sexually, then we open the doorway for true transformation. Rather than trying to tell them that they're bad and lock them in the basement and get them away from all the other parts of ourselves so we don't have to have those yucky parts, we actually move toward them instead of against them or away from them. It's crazy powerful.

Yeah. And so that really leads into Jenna. What we wanted to do specifically in this episode was help people think through sexual addiction in particular, and maybe addiction on the whole, to just think of that through the lens of ifs. So let's go back to that concept of our exiles, that our exiles are that part of us that carry our pain, that have experienced that trauma. How does the presence of exiles in our life relate to. Specifically relate to sexual addiction?

I am so happy you asked me that. And you know, Nick, I'm thinking that in order to really fully illustrate that, we should have some props. Don't you agree?

I'm thinking so.

I'm thinking so.

And everyone watching started clapping and doing a round of applause.

We need some props. Okay. I'm sort of reluctant to give away. I have some new props. They're not just my little plastic guys.

So she's moving up in the world, everybody.

Yeah, she. It's a. It's a line. It's a budget line item now. In her budget, she has props now.

It's true. I have the Dollar Store Baby Yoda props. So I'm just going to. For the time being, I gotta tell you, I did. I was in TJ Maxx and they had this big white heart shaped pillow, and I wanted so badly to buy that because that would represent the God image at our core. But I couldn't figure out how to get that on the plane and get it to Portland, so I left it there. And now I'm having regrets. So we don't have that. But I'm just gonna use. I'm gonna use Baby Yoda as the God image inside of me. And I hope no one thinks that's disrespectful, but he's just so cute and sweet and lo, I'm just going to call that The God image within. Okay, so let's say this is a stretch, isn't it? This is who we are at our core, you and I. Yeah, right.

We could only wish.

That's right.

To be that at our core. Right?

Yes. Maybe Yoda. Yeah, we are. You can feel it, can't you? Just feel the force. Okay. And so deep within us, if you're deeply offended, just don't watch the video version of this podcast. Deep within us, we have this. This core positive essence that is always there. Kind of like the sun. Sometimes it gets covered over by the clouds, but it's still there. And this part of us that is who we truly are always has those eight C qualities. We're always calm, curious, creative, courageous, connected. When we're connected to this part of ourselves, we're not having to strive for that. It spontaneously bubbles over out of us. Galatians 5. It's good stuff. Okay? But I don't know about you, I don't walk around doing Baby Yoda all day long like, this is not me on a daily basis. And the reason is because we have parts and our parts obscure our access to the core of who we are. Let me see if I can find an exile. Hmm? Oh, okay. I got a good one. All right, so what do we know about the primary negative core belief of most individuals, honestly, in the world, but particularly who are struggling with addiction? What's the primary feeling or core belief? Yes, exactly. I read your minds. It is shame. And that core belief that something is wrong with me. Right, so in the addiction literature, those are the negative core beliefs. Interesting. Notice that the number one core belief that kicks off addiction is something is wrong with me. And that would be the exact same negative core belief that we are being taught in the monolithic model of fundamental depravity of man brokenness. Something's wrong with you. It's a trauma message. I don't believe it's. I don't believe it's the heart of God. So you ready for my shame?

Let's do it.

Here it comes. And I'm going to put batteries in this next time I bring it. The batteries are all worn out. This, I think, was from trick or treat, maybe 10 years ago when my kids were this age. But are you ready? Here it comes. Alright. So here's the core of who I really am. And then I'm going along and I am completely my adult self and I'm chilling, bringing my baby Yoda. And all of a sudden something happened and it triggers me, right? We call this in Addiction work, a trigger to act out in ifs. We call it getting flooded by an exile. Darth Vader just feels like a great representation of shame to me. Okay, has Baby Yoda gone anywhere?

No, can still see his ears. He's there.

Yep, you can still see his ears. But do I have any access to him?

Not much.

I do not have access. What do I have access to right now? What feels like it's in charge of me. My shame.

Yep, that's right.

The darkness. And boy, does shame not feel like it sucks you into the dark side. I know when I feel it. It does. And when we get taken over by a part, we absolutely lose access to our calm, clear minded, curious, courageous, compassionate self. Like, whoops, we don't have any access to it. It's still there, but it's been obscured. And we think the thoughts of the part that has taken us over. We feel the emotions of the part that has taken us over. And we experience the body sensations of the part that has taken us over. So when I get a trigger, let's say I'm going along and I don't know, what would a trigger be? Give a presentation at work and the boss says, you know, you really messed up here on line 42 and you should have said XYZ and this is going to cost us the customer. And all of a sudden I go from being a 51 year old adult executive to I feel flooded with shame. Okay? So I feel the emotion of this shame part. The thoughts that go through my head are, I'm such a failure. I can't believe I'm never going to get it right. I'm an idiot, I'm going to get fired. Okay? And then somatically, we're experiencing in our body whatever this part experiences. So we might flush red, we might close over like this. And so we know that we've lost access to the God image within us because we've been overtaken by shame. Okay? And this happens in a hot second. It happens so fast that we're very often completely unaware of it. And we don't tolerate this very well because this is an excruciating thing to feel. If you're like me and you have a lot of shame, this is intolerable. We will do almost anything to make this stop because this feeling is like death. It really is just like Darth Vader. So what happens? Well, we get flooded by an exile and instantly the heroic parts of us see there's an emergency inside. In our inner family, our God image has been obscured. We are flooded by shame. Five alarm fire. And I'm working on my props. I don't have a sexual acting out, big mask prop. I'm not exactly sure what that would look like, and I don't think you probably want me to bring it, but. Okay.

So much grace.

Let's go with this one. Okay.

Yep.

So we're gonna be. We're gonna come in with the hero, the firefighter who's gonna go look at pornography and masturbate. Okay. So let's call this. For the purpose of today's illustration. This is the part that has gotten stuck in an unhelpful role, trying to help us not have to feel this shame. So it comes in to make the shame go away. And with all of our burdened parts, no matter what they're doing, there's an important truth we need to know. They're all trying hard to help make things better, and they all eventually make it worse. So let me say that again. All of our burdened protective parts. So parts that drink alcohol, parts that overspend, parts that eat Oreo cookies, parts that act out sexually, parts that control, parts that people please, parts that rage, parts that disappear and get small and don't use our voice, they're all trying to help us with a certain problem. And in the short run, it seems to work. We get a minute of relief, sometimes just a hot minute. And then almost immediately, or in the longer run, it makes it worse. Because of course, this part jumps in, this firefighter acts out for a minute, and whoo. Relief. And then what happens?

More shame.

Is our shame better or worse? Worse. Ah, now it's worse. Now this guy has to amp up his strategies. And this is why addiction is a progressively escalating situation. Because the very behavior that's trying to extinguish the shame is exacerbating the shame, which requires more of the behavior, which makes more of the shame. And round and round we go. And our strategies for making this better are often quite unhelpful. So traditionally, we look at this part and we say, that's bad. Now, let me just be really clear. What this part is doing is not good. And that's true of all of our protective parts, including the ones that look very socially acceptable, like over volunteering at the church so that we feel good enough about ourselves. Right. They're all engaged in behavior that is not helpful. The consequences of the behavior of this part are significant, but the part is not bad. It is a helpful. It's a part that's trying to help and we typically try to lock it in the basement. So now we have nothing to address the shame. And this guy feels hated and ostracized. And what tends to happen is he busts back out and takes over because he feels like he has to. And that move against strategy of moving against the parts of us that are trying to help us in the best way they know how is often ineffective. And I would suggest moving towards them with curiosity and compassion is actually the way to help them heal.

Yeah, I just feel like you have to sit with that for a minute. Yeah, that. Because that's not. I mean, even. It's not just the messages that I think that we hear, you know, growing up or even in the church or in our friend groups, but we naturally just want to move against those things because that. That is just. I don't know, maybe that's just something that we innately pick up on, is that we need to fight against those things and defeat them. And that's the only way that they'll back down, that's the only way we'll have victory, is if we somehow move against. To use your language and defeat them.

That's exactly right. But.

She'S now wearing the Yoda.

Yes.

Please watch. Making it hard for me to concentrate.

But you'll notice that Scripture is pretty consistent in teaching us that it is not in our own power that we are going to conquer these situations. It is the power of the divine. And guess where we can access that power? I mean, certainly the power of the divine is outside of us as well. But the God image within us is where we actually have the power to heal these parts. And if you look through the pages of scripture, it turns out that we have a move toward kind of God. God is not a move against kind of a God. God moves toward the lepers. He moves toward the prostitutes. He moves toward the woman caught in adultery, moves toward the storm, he moves toward the cross. And it turns out he also moves toward even the least of these parts of us. And when we can help our parts to unblend, give us a little bit of space, and we get access to this core God image within us. And we can create some relationship here between the God image within us and this part of us that is trying to help by doing this wonky thing that it does, it turns out that God says the same thing to this part that he says to everybody else in all the pages of scripture. Oh, sweet little one, come to me. You are burdened and weary and heavy laden. Come here. I will change Your name. I will release this burden of trauma from you. And let's restore you to what I originally designed you to be. Because you're not the burden of trauma that you've gotten covered over with. You are actually something good. And this is where the healing comes from. It does not come. I can't see through this. It does not come from an angry manager. Part of us that hates this part, whoops, he's upside down.

Yeah.

And tries to beat on it with God language or with, you know, 12 step, you know, whatever, whatever. Anytime we are using something good like God language or 12 step to beat up on one of our parts, we're missing the power of the God image within us. Because God doesn't beat up on our parts. God doesn't move against, God moves toward. And that is where the healing resides.

Yep. So let's talk about. Because you're getting into the protectors part. So what? Like maybe, maybe you can just describe a little bit what that pattern. You're looking at it a little bit where the God image. And then something happens, we get flooded and then we feel shame. And then firefighters and managers start to interact. Can you walk us through maybe another scenario? You know, in this context, you know, porn addiction being something that comes in as maybe more of the firefighter. But how then do the managers interact with that? And then maybe those two parts start to work. Can you kind of walk through that a little bit?

Yeah, you bet. And I think it is also important to kind of point out that there is more than just the trauma burdens happening here with the firefighters and managers. So what we know is that the pornography of today is very different than the playboy of yesteryear. And the graphic immediately accessible online content really hits at the dopamine reward center of the brain. It is not simplistic. There's neurobiology that's involved here with reward seeking. But on a global level, here's the God image we're walking along. Let me see, Let me make up what would be another scenario where can you hit me with another scenario where somebody might act out with porn?

I mean, rejection I think is one even, even in marriage. Like maybe a husband or wife pursues their spouse and the spouse is not into it that evening, they get rejected.

Right. And I want to be really careful in using that as an illustration. It's a good one because what happens in a person's system matters and that is a rejection trigger. And it is not the responsibility of the spouse to manage this parts war in their beloved. And it Is not the fault of the spouse. If the spouse needs to set a healthy boundary and for whatever reason they're not able to or don't choose to show up intimately with their full, authentic. Yes, that's absolutely the spouse's purview and they need to be supported in that. So I just want to be really, really clear that all parts welcome does not mean anything goes. Okay. And it doesn't mean that spouses need to be welcoming these parts. And what these parts are doing, that is not. We can talk a lot more about that, but that's not what that means. So let's say this individual is feeling amorous, reaches out to the spouse, and the spouse is not in a place where they're able to connect sexually. And so here we come with the. The shame, exile, it floods. And now this individual is feeling rejected, undesired, not loved, not wanted, that type of thing. Okay. And very likely, another thing that's important to know is that our parts, our burdened parts, are stuck at the age when they first became burdened.

Yeah, that's good.

So this may be a 51 year old married person with three children, but this is not. This shame might feel 3, 4, 5 years old or younger until we actually do the unburdening work. These parts are stuck way back in the past. So that person then might choose if they've got this firefighter to go act out with pornography. And for an instant, there's this sense of, I'm chosen, I'm connected, I'm desirable. And that's about a hot 30 seconds. And then this gets worse. And now what happens is here comes the inner critic. Or don't you love my high tech props? I'm so high tech. Or the spiritualizer part. Okay, now, important thing I want to point out about the spiritualizer part. This is my little. My little cross with rubber bands and sharpies. The spiritualizer part is very different than the true connection to the divine. Very different. Even though they may use the same language on the surface, the true connection to the divine exists at our core right here in Baby Yoda. Yes, I just said that. The true connection to the divine exists right here in Baby Yoda. However, we have parts that take on unhelpful roles trying to help us. And of course, our inner critic and spiritualizing parts are going to be very angry at the firefighter that just acted out with porn, like horrified. And so they're going to jump up and start yelling at the firefighter who was just trying to help with the shame. And these Guys butt heads and they tend to escalate. Okay. Left to their own devices, this parts at war situation will escalate. And so the more acting out, the louder the shame of the inner critic and the spiritualizer. You just need to repent. You need to turn around and go the other way. You need to nail it to the cross. Why don't you trust Jesus? If you would just pray more, you wouldn't do this. And. And that is all spiritual language, right. Being used to try to move against a part that the spiritualizer doesn't like. Okay. Which is very different than the heart of the divine within that actually has a heart of healing and compassion for this part. Not saying what it's doing is okay. I really want to underscore that. Not at all.

Yeah.

But that the most effective way to help it to heal is actually to meet it with that love of the divine, not the shame. And move against energy of the spiritualizer or the inner critic. Because that cycle of act out critic, act out critic, act out critic amps up until at some point it becomes intolerable. And some other things jump in. Like a little bit of. Of alcohol. We might have to throw some alcohol in that because that inner warring is too loud. Or sometimes. Okay, I just. I gotta use this one because it's my favorite cookie. Okay. Might want to eat some Oreos or suicidality. When this battle gets so extreme, I have had many clients say, I just wish I were dead. I cannot make this stop. Because the only way they know to make it stop is to scream from the manager at the firefighter, which is highly ineffective. And then a part that is burdened with thoughts of suicidality or with our betrayed partners. Sometimes homicidality or self harm jumps in and says, I'll save the day. This pain has escalated to the point that the alcohol and the cookies and the acting out are not covering it. I know how to make it stop. Yes. Even this part is a good part. Stuck in a bad role. It doesn't actually want to suicide. What it wants to do is make the pain stop. And it can see that nothing else is working. Our firefighters escalate if left to their own devices. And they travel in packs. So we see alcohol, sexual acting out, overworking, compulsive eating. They travel in packs because the pain that's driving them is so intense that it tends to need a team to try to put it out.

So, Jenna, I think a lot of people as they're listening to this, they can think back to experiences they've had of Relapsing or being stuck in these patterns and hopefully start to analyze some of the steps they've taken and see, oh, yeah, I can see where that firefighter took over. I'm recognizing some of the. The exile that jumped in because of the pain I was feeling. I can see my managers and all of that is obviously healthy to look back and start to see. But in terms of recovery, that's being able to move forward and see in the moment, like, oh, I can recognize something is happening. And so let's get into that kind of forward looking idea. How can someone, especially when we're talking along these lines of pornography addiction, sexual addiction, which is the focus for this episode, like, how could someone who's been stuck in those patterns begin to recognize that they're being taken over by that firefighter? And when they realize it's happening, what steps could they take to head in a different direction and not just continue this cycle that you've been talking about with escalating a firefighter. Manager. Firefighter manager, because so many of us have been stuck in that. So what does a different future look like to change that pattern?

Yeah, that's a beautiful question. And I really think that's at the heart of the meat of this, because what we typically do is we instruct people in recovery. And this is not a bad instruction. It's a good instruction. It just is very difficult. Once we have a trigger, if we're fully flooded by that trigger, what is the admonition? Pick up the phone and call your sponsor. You know, don't drink, go to a meeting. And when this is fully taken us over, what's the probability of picking up the phone and calling a sponsor?

Very low.

Approximately zero. Because does this part want to call the sponsor? Absolutely not. That's another part that wants to call the sponsor. This part's job is to put the pain out by acting out. And the sponsor is a direct threat to that. To move against this part with that kind of an instruction is very, very difficult. And people tend to internalize a lot of failure when that happens and they didn't call their sponsor or do whatever. Recovery behavior. By contrast with this model, we can move toward that part when it is there and actually really validate why it's there. The model itself is fairly complex and it would take a long time to sort of talk about all the different pieces and how we do that. So I have actually created a synthesis of the most powerful parts of it that are distilled from this model and attachment and mindfulness into Three words. Okay. And I call it move toward, because it's how we move toward the parts of ourselves that are creating pain in our lives. And it's three simple words. If you can remember these three words, you can actually do this in the moment. This is relapse prevention. Notice, no need. And if you ask me really nicely, I would even lead us through a brief guided meditation of how to notice, know, and need, if you'd like, and I can show you what it's like.

Yes, please. Yes, please.

Do we have time?

Yes. I mean, if you have time, we have time.

Okay. Excellent. All right. So for our listeners, you do not have to say anything, do anything. Just let your mind drift back to the last time you remember being triggered and starting to get taken over by the part of you that wants to go act out. Just remember what that's like. Now, instead of moving against the part of you or trying to move against it that wants to act out, let's move toward it. So, number one, notice. Just take a moment to very gently notice. Where does this part show up in or around your body? Okay. Wherever it shows up in your body, could you just let your gentle awareness be with it for a moment without any effort to change it or shift it in any way whatsoever, just very lovingly, compassionately being with it and just. Just welcome this part of you for just a moment. Now you're ready for the second word, which is no. Ask this part of you. What does it want you to know about why it took you over in this moment? What does it want you to know about how it's trying to help you? What does it want you to know about where it first learned how to try to help you in this way? What does it want you to know about what it's afraid would happen if it didn't take over and make you act out? And once you have a sense of that, then you're ready for step three, which is need. Ask this part of you what it needs from you right now to feel just a little more comfortable, a little less activated. You may notice that this part of you needs something internally. Might need just to be welcomed and not shunned. Might literally just want a hug in your inner imagination, or a chair to sit down in or a snack, or it might need something from you in your external world. It might need you to use your voice or set a boundary or say that you're hurt or feeling rejected or ask for help. And so just notice if there's something that this part needs from you so that it doesn't have to be so active in your life right now. And you can set an intention to do that so that it can calm down and not have to work so hard to try to protect you in this way. As you've gotten to know this part of you by these three simple steps of move toward, notice, no and need. And you've come to understand how this part of you really makes sense, how it's probably been working very, very hard for a very long time to try to protect you in some way. You might even be able to extend some gratitude and appreciation to it. And then when you're ready, just returning your attention back out into the room.

Yeah.

And listeners, if you were doing something, if you were driving, I mean, revisit that, go back and listen through that so you can really experience it. We got to do it in mod one, and that was fascinating. We don't have time to talk about everything we learned there, but that is something that. What I know is that's something you can do to multiple parts of you. It's not just one specific part you're trying to battle. Jenna, let's transition. As we're getting closer to time with these protectors that you've said are good parts that are stuck in bad roles. And then we start to take those three steps and start to understand more about them and have compassion toward them. How do we then work with those parts and assign them a new and a helpful role?

Yeah, it's a good question. So we will never assign them a different role. However, we can help them to settle when we come into better relationship with them by even just using those three simple steps. Because when we can listen to the message that they're actually carrying for us, they don't have to take us over anymore. Because then in our God image or in our authentic self, we are actually getting our needs met. And this part doesn't feel like it has to take over, but at the end of the day, what we really have to do is go one step beyond that, because that part is only operating in the way it's operating. Because of this, we ultimately are going to need to do business with this. For those who don't have video, this is the shame mask. We are going to need to do some trauma healing. When we see repeated relapses, very often it's because people have only been addressing the part that's acting out and have not done anything about the pain that's driving it. So ultimately, we want to begin by helping this part calm down and learn how to listen well to it. But we often will need professional therapeutic support. People like myself who do trauma work, who can really just give us that little extra edge of support to do the trauma healing so that we're no longer carrying all that shame in our system and sense of brokenness. And then it turns out the parts of us that have been trying to help with the pain don't need to do the jobs that they're doing anymore. And they actually get freed up to do what they were created by God to do for us, which is something typically exactly the opposite of the job that they've gotten stuck in. It's not at all uncommon for me to be doing unburdening with a client and discover that the part that was acting out sexually, actually who it truly is as a part that really desires intimate and authentic connection with the spouse. It's a real sweetness and I think very consistent with scripture. When we encounter God and the power of the divine, and it unburdens us from the burden of trauma and sin, it changes our identity. I think the name changing in scripture is a real picture of this. We're no longer wounded, lonely, outcast and afraid. We're now, you know, intimate, whole, you know, seen and loved.

So, yeah, I think it speaks to me of what the goal of ifs is. That it's not just to get my parts to clean up and behave better. That the goal is really to understand them and allow for myself to have more ready access to that core God image, to be in that place where I'm living out Galatians 5 and the fruit of the Spirit. Because all these parts aren't jumping in and taking me over. So it's. It's not about transforming those parts as much as it is what you're saying, Janet. Letting them take a deep breath and be at peace with us so that we're living out the God image. So, you know, as we think about that just in these last couple of questions, and you already mentioned it, Jenna, about how many of us carry around that shame message. And often it shows up in some pretty harsh negative self talk or criticism. And for some people, they've maybe been stuck in that for years, if not decades, of parts of themselves that they just beat up over and over. And so what would you say to that person to help them start to move towards those parts of themselves, to overcome maybe that negative self talk that has just become their second language for so long? How can we change and move towards those unwanted, what we perceive to be the unwanted? Parts of ourselves.

Yeah, that's it's so important and so valuable. And I think a way that we can do a quick check to see if we're in our God image or in a part is just to ask how am I feeling if the answer is some of the 8C qualities while I'm feeling really calm and connected and curious. Okay, great. I'm probably in my God image if the answer is I'm feeling really selfish, critical self hatred. Oh, I've got a part blended. Right. And so we do. Exactly. Trevor was mentioning, you know, this, this move toward is not just for parts acting out sexually. It's for all of our parts if we're noticing. I just love this mask. Isn't this great? This is about what my inner critic looks like. It's pretty. Is pretty scary looking. The inner critic is actually. And I actually, I made so little self disclosure here. I made a mistake several weeks ago and immediately because I'm a one on the enneagram. So it's super important to all of my parts that we do everything just right. And I've got some burden parts that are perfectionistic. So it's like a hot mess when I make a mistake. Of course my shame flooded. My critic jumped up and like really started letting me have it. And it was a tough couple of weeks for me because moving towards some parts of ourselves is harder than others. And for me anyway, moving toward my critic is just not easy because my critic is so nasty. But I eventually was able to get enough space that I was able to notice where was this coming up in my body? I was noticing it with a lot of critical thoughts, a lot of just like a pit in my stomach, this sense of just self loathing. And I'm a failure. I'll never do it right. I'm just a horrible person. And I was able to ask this part, what did it want me to know about how it was trying to help me and where it first learned how to help me in that way. And guys, I've been doing this work for a really long time and I have been a client in this work for a really long time and hope to be until the day I die. And my little sweet critic and I had a really beautiful and pretty transformational session, just me and my critic. I was just one morning, my quiet time with my journal and I just was like, I really want to understand critic, like how are you trying to help me? What's your message for me? And I got like four or five separate bullet points for how my Critic was yelling at me so ferociously because in my early life, the danger to my survival was so profound. In my environment, if I didn't do everything perfectly, it would risk all of my primary attachment. It risked everything. And so my critic was a young part of me that took on this horrible role of yelling at me. It doesn't like the role. It hates it, but it is trying desperately to prevent me from ever making a mistake so that I don't lose the connection that I needed as a young one for survival. And, you know, at the end of that, my feeling toward my critic was this, honey, thank you. Thank you so much for trying to help me survive in that way. And that's a pretty awful job that you've had to do for all these years. I'm so sorry. And I have not totally unburdened my critic, but, man, was that transformational. So notice where is it in your body? Stay with it until you can get some compassion toward it. Know what does it want you to know and need? What does it need from you right now to feel a little less activated? And my critic needed me to go and make a repair, which I did. It was actually pretty transformational. And my critic calmed way down. So notice no and need, and we can move toward those critical voices or anything else literally that comes up in our system ever.

Jenna, this stuff is so good, and it's so. I think it's so easy, even as I'm just listening to you. I've heard you talk about this a number of times, but it's easy to kind of gloss over this. But I would just encourage all of our listeners to spend time with their parts and give it the time that it needs to. And maybe it's a quiet time. Maybe it's, you know, taking a walk during your lunch break, something to just explore because it can be really, really meaningful. And it's not just attached to sexual brokenness, but it's attached to man. I mean, there's just so many dynamics to the parts that we have. So just kind of as we wrap up and as we lead into the summit, just what are some final thoughts? Maybe some encouragement that you have for people who are on the recovery journey from sexual addiction and brokenness and really want to integrate ifs in a way that's meaningful for them.

Yeah. Well, I think the most important thing I would say is that you are good, you are not bad, you are not broken, and all parts of you are good, and all parts of you are welcome. Even the part that's acting out what it's doing is not good or helpful, but that part of you is a good part and it's trying to help. And we can help unburden it. All parts welcome is truly, truly transformational. And that's part of my passion for really transforming the world and helping people to reconnect to an authentic connection to God at their core. It's a big part of why I wrote my book altogether. You experiencing personal and spiritual transformation with internal family systems therapy, which is available on Amazon. I've written that book specifically to be very conversational with lots of application so that people can literally take these concepts and apply them and change their lives like today. And I've also created this move toward movement. And I've got a ton of free guided meditation videos for moving toward every part of you you can imagine on my website, jennarimersma.com and I know it's hard to spell, so maybe you can put it in the show notes. Yeah, there's a move toward tab. Just click right on that and go to the guided meditations. There's a ton of them that are free. Move toward your anxiety, your depression, your child's anxiety, your overwhelm, your all the different things. So I'm just really passionate about making this available free of charge or EAS access so that people's lives can change today. And if you don't remember anything else other than Baby Yoda from today, notice, know and need. Those three words I believe could change your life.

Yeah. So good.

And come to the summit. It's going to be really fun.

Yes. Because Jenna is our keynote speaker at next month's Pure Desire Summit. If you like any of this stuff, if you. You're going to absolutely love her two sessions. This year's summit is the focus is just that healing happens below the surface. So we're going below the surface. We're going to explore parts. We're going to explore wounds and trauma and the family, the family of origin that we have. So register now, September 10th and 11th at Harvard Harvest Christian Church in Troutdale, Oregon. We have both in person and virtual admission available. Register now and let's go below the surface together. Go to PureDesire.orgSummit for more information and to register. Jenna, thanks for just being with us. We love spending time with you. Obviously, the props are amazing, but you just have such a heart for people and just a beautiful way of describing this model and how it helps people. And we are just big fans of you. So thanks for being with us.

Thanks, guys. I absolutely love you guys and everything that you do, and it's always a delight to be with you.

And wherever you're at on your journey, Pure Desire is here to help create a roadmap for your healing. If you or someone you know is impacted by sexual brokenness or betrayal trauma, go to PureDesire.org and let's start the healing journey today. Don't forget to subscribe to the podcast. Each week we put out new content to help you on the road to freedom from the effects of sexual brokenness and betrayal trauma. And lastly, never stop being healthy.