217 - Internal Family Systems & Betrayal w/ Jenna Riemersma

You're listening to the Pure Desire podcast, your safe place to find hope, healing and freedom from sexual addiction, betrayal and relationship issues. What is up? I'm your host, Trevor Windsor and you're listening to episode 217 of the Pure Desire podcast. Here joining me as always is my co host, Nick Stumba.

The foot is down. The foot is down.

So good. I know what it is. Do you know what it is? Justin?

Now he's doing pop quizzes on the producer. Wow.

Pop quiz. Okay, I'm not even going to fill it in. I'm not even going to fill it in for the listener.

Just say the sports. That's always a good guess.

The sports. No, no, that is from the movie Inside out and it.

Yeah, because we mentioned the movie.

We did mention. So I had to, we had to bring it in. Yes, and I'm gosh, so glad that you did. So this is episode two of our two part series with Jenna Reemerisma. Jenna is a clinician, she's a speaker and she speaks and has written. She's also an author, wrote a book called Altogether your and it talks about a therapy model known as Internal Family Systems. And we had her on today to round out this two part episode on ifs and betrayal.

Yeah, yeah. We just want to keep introducing to people a new lens, and she uses that terminology, a new lens of seeing their world and in particular their interior world. And so last week, focusing on the addiction side, you know, wanting to do the same with the betrayal side, to just say, how could these insights from IFS better benefit the work that we're doing in recovery? Because it's, I think the language is very harmonious with what we do at Pure Desire and in our groups. But it, it just brings in some different dynamics that I mean, honestly, I hadn't really heard or thought about until I encountered IFS 2, three years ago. So for, for some listeners, this is just going to build on insights they have. For others, like we mentioned last week, it's kind of new and I would highly recommend her book. Her book is really, I think, put at a level that all of us can understand. It's not like counseling jargon. And it's, it's not just if you're in a master's degree program. I really think God has gifted Jenna to communicate this to the body of Christ in a way that we can digest it and go, oh, I've never thought about it like that. So if, if you like today and you haven't picked up altogether, you, that is on our website at Pure Desire or on Amazon. We'd love to have you get that. In addition to coming and hearing Jenna at the summit, the summit right around the corner.

She is just in a couple weeks. She is our KeyNote speaker speaking two sessions at our Pure Desire Summit. You can register for in person here in Troutdale, Oregon September 10 and 11. Or you can register virtually just go to PureDesire.org summit. And today the episode is sponsored by one of the sponsors of the summit and that's Bethesda Workshops. They're located in Nashville, Tennessee. They provide short term Christian based clinical workshops for people affected by sexual addiction. They're all led by certified sex addiction therapists. Their four day workshops are for partners of sex addicts, male and female sex addicts, couples and teens. The fees for these cover lodging, meals and transportation to and from the airport. And they do have payment plans and limited scholarships. Bethesda is, like I said, one of our sponsors for the upcoming Pure Desire Summit. Remember that? September 10 and 11, either online or in person at Harvest Christian Church in Troutdale, Oregon. For more information on Bethesda workshops and to register you can visit Bethesda workshops.org and jumpstart your healing process. Few more things before we get into the episode with Jenna. Subscribe to the podcast, follow us on social media and remember and listen. You are going to want to watch this episode on YouTube. The audio is so great. But man, last week was so good. You have to see these. So, so good. So here is our conversation with Jenna Reimersma on internal family systems and betrayal. All right Jenna, reemerisma, back to back episodes. Thanks for spending some more time with us.

Take two.

Great to be here.

We love our time with you. And this is a part two. If you have not listened and we'll talk about this in the intro as well. But if you have not listened to part one, please listen to part one. And if you want maybe even an entire episode on Eternal Family Systems, go back and listen to episode 160 that we did with her. But Jenna, your new book and your counseling is focused on therapy model. That's called Internal Family Systems. It's a great model. It's really, really powerful and you get to talk about it at our upcoming summit next month. We're really, really excited about that. But we wanted to have this two parter where we talk about how the IFS therapy model integrates with helping people with addiction. And then now we want to in this episode look at how it integrates with betrayal because there are a lot of What I understand to be similar messages, but, man, not all the parts might look the same or be in the same kind of roles. So I'm excited for this. And I'll just say this for you, listener, if you want a more of a recap of the ifs. Like I said, go back and listen to the episode before this one. And then also Jenna talks about how our God image or our core isn't impacted by the flooding of the system by any of the exiles that we have. Am I just making sure I'm saying that right? That that doesn't change? Okay, cool. All right, so let's just jump in then with the betrayal side. You talked about exiles and we specifically talked about shame being one of those exiles in the last episode. How do exiles play out in betrayal? Is there anything specific about how those exiles show up when we experience betrayal trauma?

Yeah, for sure. And just for those who may not have familiarity with the model, the model just basically states that at our core, we are created in the image of God, and the God image is there within us. In ifs language, we call that our self or our authentic self. Our exiles are the parts of us that carry our pain, and our protectors are the parts of us that try to protect us from pain. Managers do it proactively. Firefighters do it reactively. With betrayal trauma, very often the flooding of the exiles is exactly the same as the flooding of the exiles. With someone who has a part that's acting out sexually, very often there is shame. There's a sense of worthlessness or rejectability or brokenness or a sense that something is wrong with me, I'm undesirable. And so those exiles can for sure flood when someone is dealing with betrayal trauma, particularly when the betrayal trauma parallels previous traumas in that individual's life that have communicated those same messages. What can happen is that that God image that is always at our core all the time can be obscured by the flooding or the taking over of an exile that feels, for example, shame or rejectability or worthlessness.

So what would you say, Jen? I'm just thinking of a follow up question here for some of our listeners that maybe feel like, you know, they didn't have betrayal trauma as a child, they didn't experience sexual abuse, and I mean, I know many did, and so they might find an easier connection if they've had that kind of trauma. But what about the listeners? Like, I grew up in a good Christian home, never felt betrayed, but I still feel that my spouse's betrayal is tapping into some deep wounds. Or trauma. Do you see that happening? And how would you help that person make that connection when it's not as clear or obvious?

Oh, absolutely. There are a million and one different life experiences that can cause us to develop exiles of shame, worthlessness, brokenness. For example, in my own life, I grew up, my dad was in the military. We moved every nine to 12 months growing up. And I was an only child. And so I was never around a peer group. And I was always kind of the new kid on the outside looking in. And I was just super awkward, Buck teeth, headgear, acne, you know, just the whole nine yards going into adolescence and was just severely bullied. And so even though I grew up in a loving Christian home and had all my needs provided for and parents who cared for me, I still to this day, after lots of my own therapy and work, have exiles that feel ugly, rejectable, stupid, broken, worthless and shame. So we can develop exiles from all kinds of life experiences, and they don't have to be what we call overt traumas. So overt traumas are the traumas on the end of the spectrum that are like the abuse, the neglect, those types of things. Covert traumas are the ones that are more stealth, that can be like having a sibling who has a chronic health condition. And so we develop an exile that believes my feelings and needs don't matter because I can't have feelings and needs because my sibling has this physical issue. It doesn't have to be because someone intentionally was harming us. We develop exiles from all kinds of situations in the world.

Yeah, so it sounds like those exiles that we carry are kind of, if you will, they're holding onto a theme, a theme of being alone, a theme of being worthless, a theme of being not enough. And that could come from overt or covert trauma. It doesn't really matter what created, it's just that that theme is there. And then in betrayal, it taps into the same theme of see, you really are not good enough. See you really are alone, you really are worthless. Would that be a good way for someone to maybe think about the possible connections?

Exactly. And I have a cheesy phrase that I use. If it's hysterical, it's historical. And what that means is if we have an elevated emotional response to a situation, it's telling us it's tapping into something deeper. And I want to be cautious with that because betrayal trauma, no matter where kind of on the, on the spectrum the acting out behavior was, betrayal trauma is a massive capital T trauma. So it is appropriate and reasonable to have a really strong emotional response to betrayal trauma. What we notice is that when it's tapping into something deeper, it's going to feel almost impossible to navigate that emotional flooding. It's going to feel almost even bigger than the betrayal trauma. And that just lets us know that we have some exiles from perhaps earlier in our life that are getting activated in this current situation because it's reminding them of the themes of the trauma burdens that they carry. And there's honestly no person on the face of the planet who has not endured some type of trauma. We are all trauma survivors at this point. Even if you just want to look at global pandemic or global wildfires and flooding just from natural phenomenon, we are all trauma survivors. And so we all have exiles that are going to flood when we feel powerless, rejected, hopeless, worthless. It's just a natural part of being human.

Yeah, I like what you're saying, Jenna. The way that we can really see these universal principles, that this isn't just for, like, a select group that's experienced really bad stuff, but that all of us carry these exiles that are carrying our pain and can get activated. And then what we talked about in the last episode is the way that those managers step in. I mean, the protectors, both the proactive managers, and then the reactive firefighters. So through that lens of betrayal trauma, talk a little bit about how those protectors tend to work when a spouse is feeling all these deep emotions of betrayal and walking through recovery.

Yeah, for sure. I'm thinking that to illustrate that, it's really going to be kind of important to have a few props. What do you think?

Always. You know the answer to this already.

Okay, I know. Okay, Very good. All right, so for those of you joining us by video, I'm holding up my very fabulous baby Yoda mask from the Dollar store. And this is as close as I could find to representing the God image within us. So I'm going to go with this sort of Zen, powerful baby, Baby Yoda thing. And so if this represents the God image at our core. And then we were, where'd my Darth Vader go? And then we were. Because, you know, you really can't talk about trauma without Darth Vader. And we have someone who is experiencing betrayal trauma and goes through, let's say, a trauma trigger. So let me just put together kind of a random composite fictional client. So let's say we've got an individual who's been married, you know, two kids, married 12 years, discovers husband's acting out, husband gets in recovery Spouse gets in healing support groups and is going along, they're kind of rebuilding. And all of a sudden there's a trigger. Maybe a spouse walks into the living room and the person in sexual recovery snaps down their laptop and it may have been perfectly innocent, but all of a sudden the betrayed spouse gets flooded with an exile. And I'm representing that here by my Darth Vader mask. So we instantly stop feeling calm, curious, connected. Right? That goes away immediately. And suddenly we're feeling afraid, powerless, panicked, rejected, all of those things. And so this is a really intolerable state. And so betrayed partners often will develop protectors to try to manage this. One of them might be rage. It might be raging at the person, what are you doing on that computer? And of course, the goal of that raging part is to try to protect the partner from having to feel this powerlessness and this sense of rejection. And of course that actually creates the very outcome it's trying to avoid. Because when we rage at someone, they tend to reject us and, and so it just reinforces that sense of rejection. Another manager, actually the raging would be a firefighter. But many betrayed spouses develop managers that are kind of looking, looking, looking and wanting to kind of get in all the weeds and, and control, we would say, and this is not who that part of the spouse is, but it can take over and, and obscure the baby Yoda. And so we no longer are feeling calm, curious, connected. And now there's this kind of panicky, like, I've got to put a tracker on the car and manage things and read all the things. Exactly. And this is a very well intentioned manager part that's gotten stuck in an unhelpful role. It's clear it's trying to help protect the betrayed partner from the terrifying experience, experience of having something come out of ever loving left field and demolish their world. And usually the theory of this controlling manager part is if I can control everything, or if I can know all the information or read all the phone records, or read all the emails or whatever it is, then nothing can come out of left field and sucker punch me like this did the first time. So this of course, is a very understandable manager. It's gotten stuck in an unhelpful role and it winds up just like all of our burden parts, making things worse, even though it's trying to make it better. Now, I do want to say with that that it is appropriate and reasonable in the trust rebuilding process for people who are in recovery to rebuild trust by daily checking in with their betrayed spouse or partner, what their recovery behaviors have been. So this idea that like their recovery is their business and you don't need to know anything about it is kind of a denial place. And that's a firefighter. You do have a right to know the global pieces of the person's recovery. Are they going to meetings, are they working on their trauma, are they doing their steps? Because that's a trust rebuilding act. So I want to differentiate between a controlling manager that is striving to protect the betrayed partner from fear or terror or powerlessness and a very reasonable kind of self led, God image, led request or boundary that the person in recovery be checking in on their sobriety behavior daily. Does that make sense? So those are two different things.

Yep, totally.

One. This one, I love this one. So, so this is a manager and this is my. I'm fine, everything's fine, we're all fine here. Nothing to see here. Move along folks. This is my cute little squishy guy with the woo hair and thumbs up. And this is a denial manager that is desperately trying to prevent this shame, powerlessness, worthlessness from being activated by bypassing it and just saying everything's fine. I mean, he said he'd never do it again. She said she, she broke up with him. He promised that I'm the only one. She said she only has eyes for me, so we're fine. Or it can take on. It can kind of get partnered up here with our little sweet spiritualizer part and it can kind of take the form of, you know, I've been called to forgive 70 times 7 and turn the other cheek. And so you know what, that's in the past. And behold, the old has passed away and the new has come and we are just not going to go there. I'm trusting Jes for his blah blah, blah blah blah. And, and kind of using denial combined with spiritual language and then scripture taken out of context to bypass or attempt to bypass the very real terror, powerlessness, fear, rejection that is underneath that. And of course very well intentioned parts. And usually these parts are behaving in those ways because they are afraid that if they didn't do that and they allowed the person to connect with what is really happening, the person would be so overwhelmed with the pain of the exiles that they would absolutely go offline and be unable to function. And so these can be very, very strong parts and they're very wonderful parts trying to help the individual survive. But that's one, here's another one with partners. So this one is a firefighter and what can happen, this firefighter develops. Let's talk a little bit about this. So let's say that we experience a situation that is profoundly terrifying. Okay. And we can't fight and we can't flee. Okay? Fight, flight, or flee. These are the body's autonomic responses. And let's say that we are trapped and unable to do that. So the dorsal vagal response is freeze or fawn. And so this firefighter can come in, which is dissociation. And this is a very, very, just, incredibly resilient part that has figured out, hey, if you are experiencing a trauma and you can't get out of there, I'm going to come and remove you from your body, even if your body can't leave. And so these dissociative firefighters are really, really powerful and strong because they often form in early childhood trauma. Because as children, we can't go up against the adults who may be creating a lack of safety for us. And we can't run away because we can't survive on our own. So dissociation is a super resourceful firefighter part that jumps in when circumstances are overwhelming to take us out of our bodies so that we can survive. And so that's another one that can come up in betrayal trauma.

Yeah. Gosh, there's so much there. I mean, one of the. I think this is like a follow up question because I have heard this a lot in a number of different scenarios. But you bring up the point and I don't. I would just say in my context, it tends to be. This is where the wife is when it comes to her relationship with her husband. That it is biblical to forgive. Right. Like it is not bad that God tells us that forgiveness is good. And it's important to me. He models it perfectly. So how can we tell? It's that spiritualizer mixed with the denial. And where's that line between that and actual forgiveness? Like the actual. I am processing it. I am. Can you kind of help give that distinction?

Yeah, it's a beautiful question because I think that that is. We tend to not know the difference because the language and what it looks like on the outside looks identical.

Yeah.

But what I will say is that authentic forgiveness is coming from this place here, the God image within us. And yes, forgiveness is important. It is healthy, it is freeing. And. Well, there's a couple of things I want to say about that. We know the difference because this spirit of forgiveness is an overflow and it is more of a surrender. This forgiveness is what it is, a desperate Attempt to avoid feeling pain. And that's a very different thing because we can forgive someone who is not repentant, who is not in recovery, who's not doing any of the things, but we don't necessarily stay in relationship with those people. And in that case, we can forgive as just simply an act of the will. However, if we are going to authentically forgive from this place of the God image, in order for that not to be a place of denial, there's a couple of things we need to make sure are happening and they need to happen in the right order. Number one, we have to know what we are forgiving. Okay, read formal disclosure, not discovery, not I promise that's all there is. Not dribble and a little more comes out. I mean, formal disclosure, we get the whole story, we get the whole truth. And number two, we have to feel and grieve the losses associated with what we have lost. We have to feel it in order to heal it. The third step then is forgiveness. And if we try to get the cart before the horse and we try to offer forgiveness before we know what we're forgiving or before we've grieved what we are forgiving, forgiveness is not forgiveness. It's denial. And there's also a phrase for this called spiritual bypass. It's basically trying to use the spiritual language of forgiveness as a way of bypassing the grief work. And what happens is it short circuits our healing process and we get stuck. So we have to keep revisiting and revisiting and revisiting. And we get really angry and frustrated because it's, quote, not working and we don't feel free and we, you know, all the things and that can really impair the coupleship's recovery.

Yeah.

And again, not because the betrayed spouse is at fault for the acting out, but when we have heard teaching about forgiveness that it's just a, you just do it and you don't, you don't need to know the things, you don't need to grieve it. Whatever creates this dilemma for the betrayed spouse of being stuck in the grief process and not necessarily knowing why and then getting blamed, like, why can't you get over it? When are you going to get past this? He's been in recovery for three years and this kind of blaming and all that's happened is we've just gotten a little bit the cart before the horse on forgiveness and we' short circuited their process. Yeah, I think we do that anyway to answer. Sorry.

Oh, I was just jumping in to agree and say, you know, as a pastor, I think we use verses and the intention behind them is good to say like, you know, forgive one another as God in Christ Jesus has forgiven you. And we can take that and apply it kind of in a spiritualized way of like, well, I have no choice here. I just have to forgive and move on. And there is some truth to that command to forgive. But what we miss when we teach that is that that God already, when God forgave you in Christ Jesus, he knew perfectly, 100% what he was forgiving. And as you know, a perfectly emotionally regulated being, he didn't in a sense need that time or space to grieve. He was able to move to that place of forgiving us through Christ Jesus. And yet when we tell people, well, just forgive like God forgave you. It's, it's almost like saying to people, because you have to be like God, you have to. But we don't, we don't know perfectly what's been done to us. We haven't had time to grieve. And so I think in the encouragement we give to people, that forgiveness, I believe, yes, is commanded, but being God is not commanded or wise or healthy to attempt. And so as human beings, we need to be able to know what's happened and process. And I just think it means for many of us, if we're listening and we're in leadership or have a role in speaking or counseling, like, we need to allow for that process, just like you said, Jenna, to take place so that when forgiveness comes, it's really coming from that authentic place of it's true forgiveness and not just, well, an act of the will, like I, you know, grit my teeth and say, I forgive. And yet we find out over and over that person just stays stuck.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think that we can tell the difference when we drop underneath it and look at what's motivating it. If we're engaged in a behavior and it doesn't matter what the behavior is, spiritualizing and forgiving or exercising, and we're engaged in that in an attempt to avoid pain, like I have to forgive so I don't have to feel these yucky feelings of betrayal, or I have to exercise so that I stay looking a certain way and then I don't get rejected. If what's motivating it is avoiding pain, it's a burdened part. If what's motivating it is an overflow of our authentic kind of centered, grounded self or God image, then it's not and they can look identical on the surface, but have very different motivators.

Yeah, yeah. And that's going to take some work to discern what's happening. And, I mean, this is a good plug for why groups are so important or why going to see a counselor is so important. You're giving the keys to someone else who can help you see those. Those distinctions. Because, man, I. I'll tell you what, like, my spiritualizer wears a very nice cloak, and it look. He looks a whole lot like living a righteous and holy life. So inviting people in is really, really important. Jenna, with. With ifs, how does it help specifically? And maybe you can give us a scenario or maybe you can just kind of break it down. How does ifs help a betrayed so spouse heal from that betrayal trauma?

Yeah. I get asked this question a lot, and I think that there's a couple of answers. The first is that when we say all parts are welcome, what we are not saying to the betrayed spouse is, everything that your betrayer has done is totally fine. And it all makes sense that you need to welcome these parts. Oh, no, no, no, no. All parts welcome means all of your parts. All parts of you make sense and are welcome. And in fact, that. That when you welcome and embrace and get to know all parts of you, they can calm and settle, and you can become more, as we would say in Christendom, led by the spirit, or as I would say with my props, led by Yoda. And it's actually from this core God image place that we can express our rage, that we can express our hurt, that we can set and hold and follow through on healthy boundaries. This is actually our place of authentic power. We can feel all the feelings and we can express them in healthy ways without attacking or without getting small or getting big. And this is the place that healthy boundaries happen. And so when we say to spouses, like all parts welcome, what that does not mean is anything goes. And I think that's the number one thing I want to say, actually. All parts welcome helps you to say, this does not go with me anymore, and I am now honoring myself by setting these boundaries. And if you choose to continue in dishonoring behavior, I will choose to create safety for myself in the following ways and actually follow through. But for spouses, how this can be so helpful? Many spouses come in and feel deeply pathological. Either they've been pathologized. Well, if you would have slept with him more, if you would have, you know, been a better husband, she wouldn't have acted out like that, you know, you get pathology that goes along, especially when it's tinged with some scripture that's taken out of context about your body's not your own and those types of things, and shamed for the other person's behavior, and then having these really strong reactions of maybe rage one minute and then absolutely numb and dissociated the next, and then flooded with shame and feeling about three years old and then eating all of the cookies and then just in complete denial. And that can feel inside of someone like, you're going crazy. And I've had many betrayed spouses come to work with me and say, I think I'm going crazy. And I say, oh, sweet one, no, you're not. This makes complete sense. And every one of those. Those parts of you is welcome and makes sense. And what we're going to do is we are going to get to know them and understand why they're activated, where they first learned how to feel what they're feeling and help them to calm down so that you, in your God image can lead these parts of you and help them to heal and be in that core, grounded, centered, authentic self. And it's really powerful and very, very helpful with betrayal, trauma. Yeah, I think very validating. Yeah.

Yeah. To say to that betrayed spouse that everything you are feeling and experiencing actually makes sense. And whether that is they're more on the proactive side or they're trying to fix it by being more sexually available, attractive, because we get that in spouses that are like, well, man, I'll fix them. And to be able to say that, you know, that reaction, it makes sense. It's not because there's something wrong with you or the spouse that's angry and shut down and vindictive, like, yeah, that makes sense. And like, I know for my wife, when we went through the counseling process with pure desire, we didn't have the language of ifs, ifs. But I know for her to have someone else validate her feelings, the good ones, to care for me, because she would beat herself up over that. Like, he's hurt me. Why do I still care about it? And she'd be beating herself up over positive emotions and the negative ones. And just to have someone be able to look at her and say, yeah, that makes sense. And we hear that a lot. And you're not alone. It does just help someone now start to face, okay, well, where is this coming from? And how does this connect to my past? And as all those pieces of the puzzle kind of fall into place, that picture of healing I think can start to look a lot clearer. And I think it begins with just what you said, Jenna, that. That it says, this makes sense and you're not alone.

That's right. That's exactly right. And it is completely normal for all human beings to have parts at war, particularly when they're triggered in trauma. And so most spouses or partners that I've ever worked with have one part that wants to connect with the person who's acting out, maybe be hypersexual for a while and try to meet those sexual needs or caretake the person who's been acting out. And then other parts that want to just absolutely rip them to shreds and divorce today. And those are two different parts that are at war, both of which are trying to help protect the betrayed spouse or betrayed partner in ways that make sense. And when we understand that the individual can listen to both of those parts of themselves, gain the wisdom from them, and then move forward in a really honoring way. Yeah.

So let's talk about the relationships for that person who's experienced betrayal. Because when there's betrayal, obviously it's relationships in particular marriage, that's often been undercut. And we're trying to figure out, okay, how do I relate to people now? So for that betrayed spouse, when they realize that their spouse's or maybe even a family member's behavior is triggering a protector in them, is that something they should communicate? Is that something they should say to their spouse or family member? Or is this the kind of work that they should do on their own or with someone else? What are your thoughts about that as a betrayed spouse is working through, realizing they're being triggered?

Yeah, there's so many different life contexts that I think that that would be very individual. For example, if someone is in a domestic violence situation, I would not be communicating that I would be looking for a. A shelter, you know, and a place that someone could go to avoid the domestic violence. If you're in a relationship where both people are in therapy and in recovery and you're working with someone who's very tender hearted and wanting to, you know, rebuild trust, to say, in that moment, you know what? I'm aware that there's a part of me. And notice how powerful that language is. It's not all of me. It's a part of me. Let's use the example that I used before, where the betrayed spouse or partner walks into the room and the individual shuts their laptop really fast rather than being taken over by a part, either a part that says, my Feelings and needs don't matter. So it pretends like didn't see anything or a raging part or a controlling part. Open that up right now and let me see what you were looking at. Rather than that saying, you know what, hold on a second. Would it be okay if I just checked in for a minute? I'm realizing that a part of me saw you close the computer really quickly and got really frightened that you might have been looking at something that would be dangerous to me. Another part of me wants to jump up and, like, get in your face and interrogate you. And another part of me wants to pretend like I didn't see anything. I just need to name that those parts of me are present. Can you tell me what was going on for you? Would you be willing to talk to me about that? Whoa. That's a different way of having a conflict resolution. That can be very, very powerful. It takes a lot of self awareness and a lot of parts awareness. But I say it's very contextual based on the circumstance. Most people need a lot of practice in a safe therapy setting before they're in a space where they can speak for their parts in the moment.

So as a betrayed spouse, is it, you know, because as we get into. Because we really want both a betrayed spouse and anyone who's experiencing, to use your language, who has a part that's acting out sexually in unhealthy ways. We want them both to be in healing and recovery together, like we both want. You know, our friend Drew Boa, who you mentioned last in our conversation, that he talks about the three different recoveries. Your recovery, your spouse's recovery, and then the coupleship recovery. So as a betrayed spouse, is it okay, or is it important for us as the betrayed spouse to know the exiles and protectors of our spouse who's struggling with sexually acting out?

I would say, again, that depends on the classic answer. Uniqueness.

Next question. Thank you.

Well, because I think circumstances vary, there are some betrayed partners whose way of coping is wanting to know everything, and they would like to be in the other person's therapy session. They want to know everything that they're working on, and that is a control manager for that person. I would say that it actually might not be helpful. And what would be helpful is to take what we call a U turn. So instead of directing their energy outward at what are you doing in your therapy? Actually redirect the energy, take a U turn, and say, what is coming up in me? Oh, fear is coming up in me that he or she isn't Working on this stuff, and then they're going to hurt me again. Okay. And what parts of me come up around that? And that's the work that the person has to do. On the other hand, what I would say, and it may be more appropriate for later in the healing journey when you're really doing repair in the coupleship. It can be incredibly powerful and incredibly tender when you have enough safety on board in the coupleship for both people to begin to share the parts of them that are getting activated in these patterns. And that's really helpful because, number one, it helps each person recognize that what's happening is not all of their beloved. It is just one part of them. And it's not even a part of them that is from the current moment. It's a part of them that started when they were three and dad came home drunk and was raging. So in other words, it goes from being, this is who you are, and this is hopeless, and maybe I never should have married you in the first place to oh, my gosh, I understand why you're shutting down.

Yeah.

Because that was the only thing that could keep you safe. And it's really hard to connect. Would you be willing to, you know, work with that shutdown part and then come back to this conversation? It can really be transformational, and that might be helpful for a little bit later on in the process, but it can be profound. Profound.

Yeah. Yeah. So what I hear you saying, Jenna, and what I think I've seen even in my own experience is like when both the betrayed spouse and the acting out spouse are starting to get personal traction in their own recovery. Recovery. They've got a support system around them. They're making good progress in understanding their own exiles, protectors, where their firefighters and managers are at, and they're starting to see their life through that lens. Then coming to that coupleship of how can we learn about each other could be profoundly helpful and bonding and create new conversations. But doing that too soon or too early in the process can start to become a way actually to. To deflect away from my own healing and be more mindful of wanting my spouse to get better. And I guess I just wanted to speak up and say this for all who are listening that are on the sexual addiction or the acting outside. We tend to be in a hurry to want to look across the room or the sofa, if you will, to say, well, what are you doing? Because look at all this great work I'm doing in my group, and I'm not acting out. And we want to See their products, like, we got to be really careful before making that turn and make sure that we have really made significant strides and that when we make that turn towards our spouse, it's not out of a, well, now I'm going to help fix you, but out of a place of really. I want to truly understand what drives you. I want to understand the things that are important to you. I want to understand, you know, what's led to the exiles in your life so that we can grow and mature as a couple. Then that, as you said, Jenna, can be a really beautiful thing.

Yeah. What that is, once there's enough safety established in the coupleship, is its true intimacy.

Yeah.

Because that is the definition of into me, you see, and at least what I've experienced in my own life and seen in couples lives. So I've been married 26 years, and every marriage has repetitive conflict where over time your parts develop relationships with your partner's parts. And oddly, we pick people who are parts, wound each other's early exiles in their behaviors, and that becomes the chronic, repetitive cycle in the coupleship. And I know that my husband and I have had some really profound moments around our little repetitive go around and the kind of repetitive conflict that we have had in our lives when we stopped speaking from our protective parts and started speaking for our parts. This is 15 years of therapy later, but saying, you know what? There's a really young part of me, this little girl who always felt so overwhelmed by this important person in my early life who brought a lot of attention to us, and the only way she knows how to get started safe is to shut down. And when you get big like that, I. When I experience that bigness, this little girl gets triggered and wants to shut down. And then for him to say, wow, well, when I don't feel safe or when I don't feel heard, this part of me that had to get big to keep me safe when I was in my early life wants to get big and get bigger so that you'll hear me. And it's really trying hard to protect this vulnerable little one that wasn't feeling heard when I was very young. And so that. That can just be transformational. And that is intimacy.

Gosh.

These episodes are opposite of addiction.

Yeah, totally. These episodes are like counseling sessions. Like, I. I'm listening to her and I'm just like, dang it, I do that. Oh, yeah, there's that part. Oh, yeah. Oh, I didn't.

All parts welcome.

That part's been hiding over there in the corner for a While like, yeah.

All parts welcome.

I think for a lot of couples, just that little nugget of wisdom could help them to start speaking for their parts and not saying, well, I am so angry, but instead saying, you know, there's a part of me that's really triggered to anger because of this. And here's, here's why I think it triggers so much anger. And that's just like you said, it's a different conversation than just expressing the anger and acting like that's all of me. So hopefully some couples could work on just using that language this week. You know, Jenna, another thing that we've seen to be so true is that our spouse's addiction can trigger really deep seated feelings in us of rejection, shame comparison. Why am I not enough? So if we're the betrayed spouse, how can we learn to have compassion for those parts of us that feel so shameful and not enough and move towards them? When in our background or theology we've defined those parts as being so negative or ugly, how can we move towards them?

Yeah, this can be difficult if the, if we've received messages that if we're feeling negative emotions, we are doing our quote, our faith wrong. So like, we feel fear or brokenness, that, that is because we don't have enough faith, or we're not close enough to God, or we're not trusting God enough that there's something sinful about neg emotion. And the truth is that God actually put those negative emotions in us for a reason, and they are in us so that we will listen to the messages that they have to deliver to us. There's a major problem if we cannot feel pain. And in my book, I talk about how leprosy is the physical equivalent of this. In leprosy, the nerve endings die and so you can't feel any physical pain. Well, that's our culture's definition of nirvana. But the reality is when we can't feel pain, there's a real problem. Because if I'm chatting you up and I put my hand on a hot stove, I'm not going to realize that my hand is burning until I smell the flesh and I look down and say, oh, no, my hand is on the stove. It is vitally critical. And God put these emotions in us so that we could listen to the messages that they have for us. And moving toward them is the way to do that. And we really instinctively move against them because we're told they're sinful or they're wrong and they certainly don't feel good. So it's very hard to move toward them. So to help people with that, I have actually distilled the power of the essence of the internal family systems model and attachment and some other theories down into three words. Because I realized there's this huge gap between the number of people who are suffering and access to care. And I wanted to bridge that gap. So I distilled it into three words that everybody can remember and apply and change their life. And those three words are notice, know, and need. And that is the whole essence of how we move toward, which is the name of this approach. Move toward the parts of ourselves that are hard to move toward. So what I would say is, if you're noticing that you are being flooded with fear, let's say, great, number one, notice it. Where is it showing up in your body? Maybe a racing heart, maybe shortness of breath, maybe a tightening in the throat. Just be with it. Let your gentle, compassionate attention breathe, love and welcome into those sensations in your body. Just for 30 seconds. Just be with it without any effort to change it or shift it in any way. So welcoming and noticing this part of you. The number two is no. You can literally ask this part of you, what do you want me to know? What do you want me to know about why you just got triggered in this moment? What do you want me to know about where you first learned to feel this way? Where did you first learn how to feel panic and fear? Oh, when dad lost his job and we got thrown out of our house and we didn't know where we were going to live and how we were going to eat. Great. Can you just let that part of you know you're really getting it right? And then number three is need. Ask this part of you, what do you need from me right now? To feel just a little bit less activated. So fear. Welcome. You are welcome. And you make sense. Gosh, you've been doing. You've been feeling this for a really long time. It's very frightening. What do you need from me right now? Fear may just need to be embraced, like in your inner awareness. It may just finally need you to say, hey, come here, I got you, I got you. And have somebody just hold it. And that inner God image is the ultimate attachment to figure. Let those little ones run to Jesus and do not forbid them, for such is the kingdom of heaven. These parts of us that feel fear, shame, terror, these are young parts of us. Let them just run and cling to Jesus. Not in a spiritualizer sense, in a like genuine, genuine way. Maybe this part of you, needs you to do something in your external world. Use your voice, set a boundary, say something is not acceptable, that you're no longer going to tolerate being abused or mistreated or lied to or gaslit. Maybe it needs you to ask for help or prioritize your feelings and needs and then it will calm down. So you can see that this simple three word approach, notice no and need, can really be transformational because no matter what part of us we're flooded by fear, shame, any of that, we can learn to listen to the important message that it has and what it means us to do in our adult self and that God image to help take care of it so that we can be, quote, led by the spirit and not by our burdened parts.

And Jenna talked through that same process in our last episode. So listener, if you missed that, not only did she talk through it, but then actually led us through kind of a guided exercise to take those steps. And I think what's important to acknowledge here is we want to move towards whether we're the one acting out or feeling betrayed or we're somewhere on both sides of the spectrum. Like, this is the kind of work we can all do. This isn't just reserved for a few people that have deep insights into themselves. Because I think in a journey like this, we might feel like, I don't know what I'm feeling. I'm just feeling really angry or hopeless or lost. And what I've just seen over and over, both for myself and others, using some of these tools that Jenna has, is if you'll take a few deep breaths and just without expectations, walk through that process. It is amazing how much your parts want to talk with you, how much, how much your inner world wants to say something and be listened to. And I just want to say to you, listener, like, there's more here probably than you're expecting. And so just go into it with an open heart to say, lord, if you can use this to help me get in touch with what's really going on inside of me, if I can learn in a new way to move towards those parts of myself that I've ignored for my whole life, God, I want you to use this. And I just wanted to vouch for that. I really think there's a lot of benefit here, no matter where you're at on your journey.

And honestly, it takes time to develop relationships in life. It takes time to develop relationships with your parts that you've been running away from. Like, you know, allow yourself, give yourself that grace that maybe Your first couple conversations are going to be super awkward and. And that's okay. Something, Jenna, as you were talking too, that came to mind is that we know that the healing process requires having new experiences to replace those old traumatic experiences. And what I just realized is you're describing an experience for that part that's been burdened and damaged by trauma and sin. And you're facilitating a conversation that is creating that new experience for that part. I think that it's gotta incorporate other people as well to some level. But what's really cool is I'm kind of kickstarting this brand new experience with this part where, look, you are welcome. Here it is. Okay. Like, you know, I've heard you talk about it, Nick, in the counseling process where Dr. Ted was talking to you about thanking the addiction for what it, like, did for you. So those kind of conversations, and that's what's really cool, is we can almost kick start those brand new experiences just by ourselves by engaging in this approach to our parts.

That's right. And you know, one of the things that creates the quality of trauma is not just the experience. Because two people can go through the same traumatic experience and one person will come out with a burdened part and the other one won't. And very often what makes the difference is the experience. Experience of being alone in it and powerless over it. And so for these burdened young parts of us, they very often, when they originally became burdened with these feelings, they were all alone. When we were four or five years old and alcoholic parent came in and started beating up mom or dad, there was nobody there to protect or to care for, to create safety. And so there's this profound sense of I'm all alone, like it's up to me to figure this out. And I'm three years old, I don't know how to do that. And so when we bring these parts into relationship with the God image within, the part is no longer alone. And that is repair. And that's profoundly repairing and healing. And then that flows out into other relationships. And it's an inside out job rather than an outside in. And we carry that, that perfect attachment figure of the divine within us at all times. We don't have to go looking for it or wait till our partner is in recovery long enough to become a good attachment figure. It's in here.

When we were in, I just want to say this. When we were in Mod 1 and you were teaching, you talked about the movie Inside out. And there was this little piece of how it was Integrated with ifs. Can you just say that really quick? So Pete, because like the movie is profound because of its integration with ifs. Can you talk about that for a second?

I would love to. So IFS is taking the world by storm, not just the therapy world. It is growing. Right now there are 9,000, last I heard, people on the wait list to get into the level one training and it's gone to a lottery system. They cannot keep up with it. So we have IFS being developed in school systems for dealing with bullying and depression anxiety among our children. We have IFS being in international peace negotiations. We have certainly IFS is used in therapy. We have ifs being used with business leaders to be self led leaders. And IFS is being used to bring awareness to the world. And Pixar partnered with the IFS Institute to create the movie Inside out, specifically to bring the principles of IFS to children so that even little bitties could understand this. And so moms and dads, for those of our listeners who are moms and dads and are broken hearted, starting to realize the generational legacies that have been passed down, that have wound them up in listening to this podcast and wanting to interrupt those generational patterns before they reach their children, there is nothing more powerful that you can do. You are not going to be able to shield your children from all pain and suffering. I so wish we had that easy button, but we don't have it. But what we can do is when our children encounter this pain and this suffering that sexual addiction and betrayal trauma is going to bring into the family, it is to teach them to name what they're feeling. Welcome it, it's safe to feel all the things you're feeling and teach them. Yeah. Where do you notice the anger in your body? Do you think there's something the angry part of you wants you to know? It needs you to like pound on something awesome. Let's go get pillows and beat the pillows. Even little bitties can understand these concepts. And parents, I promise you, this is an outpouring of the vaccinating that you will provide to your children against growing up to grow into addiction or marry into addiction. When we can welcome and move toward our feelings, we do not need addicted parts. So if we can equip our children to notice, no need identify their feelings and move toward them. Man, who is unbelievable. The legacy patterns that will be changing. Just look out because imagine I want you, listener to rewind in your own life story and imagine if your mom or dad had had the chance to Know what you know after listening to this and had been able to begin, not perfectly, but begin to move toward their parts and notice. No. And need and then teach you to do the same, can you even fathom the different trajectory that your life would have taken? So that gift that we can offer our children is profound. Do not underestimate it. This is what changes those generational patterns. And I believe that's why in scripture it says the sins of the fathers are going to pass down the second and third generation. Why? Because God's vindictive? No, because in that day and age, the second and third generation lived under the same roof together. So that's what was going on in the milieu. But the blessings, the blessings go to the thousandth generation. When somebody stops that trajectory and begins to move toward all the feelings changes everything for all the many generations following. And it is powerful. So let me encourage you, moms and dads. This stuff is not just for us as individuals. This is for our kiddos and it changes everything.

So good. Thank you for going off on that. That's great. That's one of a great way just really to end the episode. But I also want to give you the opportunity just for anybody who is experiencing betrayal trauma and is working through or realizing they need to work through and heal that when it comes to ifs, what encouragement would you give someone in that situation?

Yes, run, do not walk to your nearest way that you can get ifs. And I'm passionate about bringing this to the world in really accessible ways. So if you go to my website, jennarimersma.com I have a move towards tab. I have an IFS tab. You can click on that. And I've got all kinds of free guided meditations to help you move toward different parts of you. I have free downloadable worksheets. I've got all kinds of things. I've written my book altogether you experiencing personal and spiritual transformation with internal family systems therapy specifically to help everyday people who don't have a therapy background not only understand these concepts, but then apply them. This book is just filled with active exercises to help you get a little nugget and then apply it and get a nugget and apply it. I have an online workshop where I literally teach through the book and do guided meditations and have journaling exercises. And that's available on my website and on bloomforwomen.com and pathformen.com I teach free courses that explain parts and use props and pillows to demonstrate betrayal, trauma and parts that act out sexually. So I'm really, my heart is just to pour out resources into the community as much as possible. I have a referral list of Christian IFS therapists on my website that is ever growing and international. So if you love this model and you want to get with someone who identifies as a Christian and an IFS therapist, go there and find someone in your state or your area. I also have a link to the whole IFS Therapist directory all over the world for all IFS therapists. And those are great ways that you can connect with support and really begin to move toward all parts of you so they can heal. Because Betrayed partners. Recovery is not because you've done something wrong. Recovery is recovery from trauma. Trauma that has been done to you, but that does not need to define you.

And another resource is that Jenna is going to be at the summit just in a couple weeks after this episode comes out. So if you like any of this stuff, you're going to love her. Two sessions at the summit and this year's summit is really focused on the reality that healing happens below the surface. So if you register now, you are going to get to hear Jenna talk more and more about this and we'll make sure all the resources that she talked about will be in the show notes as well. But just know September 10 and 11 at Harvest Christian Church in Troutdale, Oregon, we have both in person and virtual admission available for the Summit. Register@puredesire.org Summit Jenna, you know, maybe it's the baby Yoda, maybe it's that you use Darth Vader, who you know, there's probably something in there why he's my favorite character of all time, which we can talk about when I hire you as my counselor. But thank you so much for what you do and thanks for just spending time with us. We appreciate you.

Thanks guys. It's always a pleasure, pleasure to be with you, appreciate you having and wherever.

You'Re at on your journey, pure desire is here to help create a road map for your healing. If you or someone you know is impacted by sexual brokenness or betrayal trauma, go to PureDesire.org and let's start the healing journey today. Don't forget to subscribe to the podcast. Each week we put out new content to help you on the road to freedom from the effects of sexual brokenness and betrayal traumas. And lastly, never stop being healthy.