218 - Healing Below The Surface

You're listening to the Pure Desire podcast, your safe place to find hope, healing and freedom from sexual addiction, betrayal and relationship issues.

Hey, hey, hey.

I'm your host, Trevor Windsor, and you're listening to episode 218 of the Pure Desire podcast. Here, joining me as always, my co host, Nick Stumbo.

I wanna dig, dig, dig a little deeper Wanna dig, dig, dig a little deeper this is where you come in. Dig a little deeper in his love.

Oh, no, sorry, that is that. Was that a song you learned on a flannel graph?

Well, what a lot of our listeners don't know is that for five years of my life I was in a men's quartet.

I'm not mean, I'm not.

We have a couple of CDs out there.

I can tell, I can tell. That was good.

We were stand. You'd ground. If you can find a stand your ground cd, it's probably like on ebay. Oh, the. That'd be very optimistic, Trevor.

If it is, we'll put it in the show notes.

Southern Gospel a cappella. And that was one of our songs was Dig a Little Deeper.

So today we talked to Heather Kolb, who is our neuroscience expert, content manager and speaker as well, at our Pure Desire summit. That is this week. It is this week. It is only in a few days, Friday and Saturday. And we talked about the theme of the summit, but really we went, pun intended, deeper than just the theme of our summit to talk about going below the surface to get healing and recovery.

Yeah, yeah, we want to dig a little deeper and look into what does that.

Perfect.

What does that mean? What's. What is the outcome of it? Yeah. And I think joking aside, you know that song says digging a little deeper in his love. That. That to me, that may be an overarching theme of this podcast is not just getting below the surface because it can be messy and complicated and hard. And so we're not just going there for the sake of like staying there and becoming aware, but so that. So that we can dig into God's love for us and his identity. That's something that comes up a lot in this podcast that I think people are really going to enjoy is going Below the Surface is about finding where has my identity become twisted by just false ideas, whether from this world or from an enemy or from my painful experiences growing up. Just where has that become twisted and how do I invite God and others into that process so that my identity that really resides in kind of a below the surface place in my life that my identity can get set Right. And so that from there comes new behaviors and new actions that above the surface, then do look like the kind of life I want to live.

Yeah.

Yeah.

There is a lot to this episode, and it was fun. It was a really good conversation, which makes me even more excited about the summit. But a few things before we get into the episode. Subscribe to the podcast, follow us on social media, and these full episodes are up on YouTube. And because the episode is going to be telling you to go to the summit anyways, I'll just say you can register right now for in person or virtual. Go to Pure Desire, PureDesire.org summit. And here is our conversation.

Maybe I'll even sing for you. Oh, don't hold your breath.

Okay. Well, either way, here's our conversation with Heather Kolb on healing below the surface. Heather, welcome back. Thanks for being here.

Thank you. Happy to be here.

Yeah, I just noticed, like, you almost jumped in. You weren't sure if I was gonna keep going or, like, I feel like there are two people. I feel like we struggle with introductions. Heather, she just wants to jump in, right. And Ashley, because she's just so awkward. If you listen to any episode with Ashley Jamison, she's like, hi. And it's like, okay, Ashley, come on.

Let'S just get into it already. Hopefully she listens to this episode.

Yeah, this will be the test. Ashley, our group's coordinator, do you listen to the podcast? Okay. And this week, we are having the Pure Desire Summit, 2021, Troutdale, Oregon, Harvest Christian Church. And the theme.

And online.

And online. You're right. Yes.

Did I also get left out?

You know, well, okay, so if you're listening to this and just hearing about the summit, it's likely you're not coming to Trowdale, Oregon, so you can register online, which we will get to that and we'll talk. We've talked about it already in the intro, but the theme is going below the surface. And the first question, really, as we get into the episode, is gonna explore that a little bit more. So on a number of occasions, the 101, when we did our events with the PDC, the pure desire Conference going around the country, we talked about our lives being like an iceberg. And really what the imagery is is that above the waterline is our behaviors. So what we see externally, but that's just above the waterline. And like an iceberg, there are. So there's so much below the surface. And so this first question really is just kind of developing that imagery. Like, what is below the surface. So if our behaviors are above the waterline, what is below the surface when it comes to our lives?

I would actually say that there's a lot below the surface. And especially if you look at like in the 101, we talk about how our thoughts and feelings are below the surface. But even if you break it up and say that what's above the surface is what we allow others to see in our lives, those are the behaviors that everybody sees. Our daily lives, whatever that looks like. Then even logically below the surface, mixed in with our thoughts and feelings are those other things that we keep hidden from other people. The things we do in secret, the parts of us that really we don't want other people to see, whatever that looks like. And so there really is a lot to who we are and what we do and why we do it that sits below the surface, which is a great thing to explore.

Yeah. And we sometimes talk about the layers of those thoughts and feelings are the things that are maybe just below the water, that if at any given moment I'm willing to pause and really kind of think about, okay, where am I at? What am I feeling? What am I thinking? I can fairly quickly become aware of that level. But then there's even another depth where we talk about our core beliefs or what we really believe to be true about ourselves. And things like, where does my value, worth and identity come from? And sometimes those are things that are not immediately present to us even if we stop to think about them. That it takes a process, maybe of being in a group environment or having someone who is skilled in a counseling office or maybe a life coaching situation to help us kind of unpack. When you really get into some of those things, what do you believe about yourself? What do you believe to be true? And we're not just talking like that mental ascent, like why I believe that blue is the best color.

That belief is because it's not the best color.

It's these deeper things of what do I believe about me? What do I believe about relationships? And many of those things have been formed by our family of origin, past wounds and trauma, negative experiences and positive experiences. Things that have shaped us. And we can't always readily access some of that. It takes a willingness to go to those places and sometimes can be a process.

Yeah. And the reason why it's so important that we have this conversation and why an entire event for us is going to be focused on this is because change and healing doesn't happen above the waterline. That's not where it Happens, that is going to be the fruit or the reflection of what is taking place underneath the surface and the work that we've done. Moving on.

Yeah, we talk about that at Pure Desire, that the point in healing is not to stop a behavior, because the behavior above the waterline will often just lead to a different kind of behavior, dealing with the same things that are below the surface. We're really here to change the way we do life, and that involves impacting our thoughts and attitudes, but also going into those core beliefs. And so thinking along those lines. What would we say are the benefits of going below the surface? Because it can be messy, it can be uncertain. There can be challenges there. So why would we want to go below the surface when it comes to healing and recovery?

Yeah, the big one for me is that you realize that all of life is connected, that your core beliefs are connected to your thoughts and your feelings, and those thoughts and feelings are always connected to your behaviors. There's this integration of it, and I love that word. We're living an integrated life that we are aware of what is motivating my behaviors, my thoughts and feelings, and where I'm at emotionally. Just. It's funny. Yesterday I was with my wife when we were driving over some friend's house, and I just. The motor of my brain was just going, going, going, going, and I just started sharing. And as I started sharing, what I realized is I had, like, talked for almost the entire time. And, like, I'm not, like, running my wife over. Like, I'm sorry, I keep sharing. She's like, no, this is good. Like, you can keep going. And I kept going. And I realized all of this stuff that's going on in my head, thoughts and feelings over here, some beliefs about myself over here, some of the experience I had that day, they're all connected to what's going on. There's not just like, here's my relationships over here and here's my work. Here's right here, and here's how I feel as a dad over here. Like, they are all integrated. And I think that that's what is a huge benefit of going below the surface is that you realize all of it is integrated and all of it impacts you at some level.

Yeah. And, Nick, you already even mentioned this, that really, when it comes to our healing and recovery, that we're not just changing a behavior. And so when you look at the way that this benefits us is that this is how we change our brain, because all of those things are core beliefs that drive the way we behave. And we act. And all of those things that are a core part of our brain function, really, the only way that we can change those for a lifelong change, is to go below the surface and look at really, where do those core beliefs come from? Where do those thoughts and feelings come from? Because it really is amazing how you can talk to somebody and they'll have just got a promotion or something great happens in their life. And the minute that that happens, at the same time, there's this negative thought that enters their mind that says, you got this promotion today, but just wait till they see who you really are, you know, because that's how those lies and those core beliefs, they show up in our life. And it's really one of the important things to being able to identify those things, but even dig deep to find out where does that come from? Why, when I'm even experiencing something that's a really good thing in my life, why does it show up at the same time? What's happening there? And I think it really comes from that sustainable brain work that we talk about at Pure Desire and we do in our groups and all of that integration into our healing.

Yeah, I think it's going to the Apostle Paul's question in Romans 7, where he's addressing, why do I do what I don't want to do? And. And going below the surface is really about looking at those why questions of what, what drives me, what motivates me? Where does it come from? And the other illustration I think of the benefits are it's the roots and fruits that if I only spend my life looking at the fruits of my behaviors and actions, and. And in particular, if I don't like some of the fruit I'm getting, if all I do is keep picking those bad apples and, you know, throwing them away and getting rid of them, but I never do anything else, well, guess what? The next season there's going to be more bad apples, like, oh, what's going on? And just keep picking the bad ones off. The roots and what's going into the plant are really what need to be addressed. So it's. It's in our lives dealing with some of that deeper stuff so that we do get the outcomes, we do get the behaviors, we do get the kind of life that we feel good about because it is integrated, it is consistent. But we'll never get there just by fixing behaviors. And even if we did amend all of our behaviors but left the underneath stuff unaddressed, sooner or later, something's going to find its way back in and we're going to just keep dealing with the fruit. So I think it's a willingness to go to those places that leads to that lasting change that really we're all after.

Yep.

And so then what's at stake if we're not willing to go there, if we're not willing to do the work and dig below the surface?

Yeah. What comes to mind for me is the word awareness, or in this case, really a lack of awareness. You know, if I've got something going on in my body physically, and I'm just kind of aware that it's there, but I don't want to get, you know, the X rays or the MRI or the CAT scan or, you know, whatever would be required. If you're like, nope, I don't want to go there. It doesn't change my reality. Like, whatever's going on is still going on, and it is going to affect me. The only thing that's been impacted is my lack of awareness, that I'm not willing to see it. And so if we don't go below the surface, I think that's the reality that we're essentially saying, I just don't want to deal with those things. It's not changing our reality, though. Those things are all still there.

Right.

We have maybe unwanted core beliefs that are still driving us. We have thoughts and attitudes that may be creating problems in our relationships or our marriages. And. And by not addressing it, we're just not changing anything. So I. I think that's what's at stake, is we may be allowing something unhealthy that really could be dealt with. We may be allowing it to stay there just because we don't want to go to that place.

Yeah, I think it just. It's exhausting if you don't go below the surface because you're doing all this work, because maybe you do have some. We all do. We have unwanted behaviors in our lives that we'd like to see change or some. Some shift in our rhythms or in our attitudes or whatever. None of that will change. You'll keep working and working and working. You're just a hamster on the wheel, going, going, going. And eventually, like, you're going to hit burnout. And burnout for me in my recovery has led to relapse and led to going even further into some unwanted behaviors. And so I think that's at stake. I think the reality that if you don't go down to your core beliefs and identify what are the lies there, you will continue to operate based on lies for the Rest of your life not a good place to be. I mean, you fill in the blank of all the ways that can manifest. And then I think about my kids. Like, if I'm someone who never goes under the surface, below the surface, to work on anything, what am I modeling and teaching to them? I'm teaching that daddy does a lot of behavior modification stuff that doesn't actually work. So good luck, buddy. You can do this. You know, and it's like, well, no, dad, I can't, because you're not showing. You know, So I think there's a modeling piece to that, too, that we're not just doing this. You know, the terminology I use is the inner world. Or, like, the inner work, I think is the way I've coined it in my life, that if I'm not willing to do the inner work, it doesn't just impact me, it also impacts those around me, both in modeling of what it looks like, but then also they'll get the positive or negative ramifications of the work I do or don't do.

Yeah, I think that's a really good observation that we tend to pass on to our kids, to people around us, those things that are driving us, particularly when we're unaware of them. And it can just cycle its way through family generations because no one's really addressed the anger problem or the compulsivity problem or the spending issues, because everyone just, you know, keep the happy face on it. We're all okay. And yet it just keeps going down through generations. And I think that's when we go below the surface, we have the opportunity to change the trajectory of our family. And I would say, in what I've seen, even if we feel as the individual, we're not completely successful in correcting it ourselves in our life. You know, it may be an ongoing thing that we're wrestling through, but if I'm open about it, if I'm honest with my kids about the things that I'm dealing with and what I'm learning, they're going to see that in a whole different light. Because now it's safe to talk about right now. It's no longer this taboo thing in anyone's life. Well, no, we bring it to the surface and we address it. And what we do then is, I think we really equip our kids with a lot better perspective and capacity to handle something that if we don't go there and they don't go there, and then, just like I said, it keeps on going through our family. And so that may be A motivation for some to see, like, wow, as I address these things, I really am impacting future generations.

Absolutely.

It also seems like another thing that's at stake is that to some extent we're setting ourselves up for disappointment only because it's going to keep coming up. You know, we can push it down and shove it down and not deal with it, but even over time, it's not just going to stay in one place, but it seems to even get bigger and bigger. And then when it does go above the surface, it is super ugly and nasty and much more challenging to deal with.

Totally. I mean, thinking of Nick's illustration of the tree, like, if you made some changes right. When you planted it, that's easy to do, right. But you're gonna have to cut the whole tree down if you let it grow and it's got all this bad fruit. Like there's that. If you take that illustration down the road, there's a lot of negative ramifications that can happen. Okay, so I think, and this is a good, I think a good question in general is when it comes to something like this, like going below the surface, where do we see this, like, modeled or talked about in scripture, do we see it in the life of, of Jesus? Like, because I think that there can be this, like, aversion to anything that feels therapy, ish, therapeutic, clinical, whatever. So how would we answer this question? Where in scripture do we see something like this?

Yeah, I mean, I think of a number of places and we could list many more. But I think of things like what I already said about the Apostle Paul and his wrestling with why do I do what I don't want to do. I think even about the habit or the pattern that Jesus shows us of often withdrawing to a private place to pray, pray that here he had, you know, essentially a limited three year window of time to do public ministry. And I think a lot of us especially, you know, threes and sevens and eights on the enneagram would be like, man, we just got to go get it done. We gotta, we gotta make it happen. There's only so much time and there's a, you know, a death, a crucifixion coming up pretty soon. I don't, I gotta go do it.

Yeah.

And yet there's many times that disciples are like, where'd Jesus go? What are you doing? He's off praying. He's off with the Father in my mind, doing that interior work of knowing who he is before the Father, being reminded of his mission, being, I think, just in that relationship with receiving the love of God at a deep level, not because of his performance and his preaching and the miracles, but because just of that relationship they had. So I see that model. I mean, I think the psalmist David gives us many places throughout those songs of his where he's talking about, you know, search me and try me, Lord. See if there be anything in me that is offensive to you, lead me in an everlasting way that he's saying, you know, know my heart and bring it. Bring it to my attention so that I can confess it, renounce it, repent of it, and walk in a different way. And so many of those psalms just, I think, give us a great pattern that we could even pray as we're trying to go below the surface. Like, we could just pray what David did and then kind of listen and become aware of what God might bring to mind. I also think we see many, perhaps negative examples of what happens when someone doesn't do below the surface kind of interior work. One of those for me, has always been Gideon in the Old Testament, who was, you know, raised up to be a judge over Israel. Did, you know, really some incredible things for the country. But at the beginning of his story, we see him protesting God's call in his life because he says, you know, who am I in my family? I'm the least of my family. We're the least of the tribes. He's very resistant to God's call. Because what I think you see there is a mindset of not being enough or not being sufficient. And what is often forgotten in Gideon's life is at the end, he really, in a very inappropriate or sinful way, steps into the role as being a priest and making an affad for himself and having the Israelites essentially worship he and his family, which I see as being kind of this great reversal of, I'm finally somebody, I finally have something. And now it feels good that as the leader, like the people are worshiping me. And what it says there at the very tail end of Gideon's story is that he did more to cause Israel to fall into sin because of that ephod, making the ephod than he did in his victories. And to me, it's a very, very sad statement about an unaddressed, below the surface, kind of interior world that he never course corrected to find out that what makes me enough is God in my life and his call. And then he wouldn't have needed that at the end. So I think that's just one of many examples we could actually find where in some of those stories, the characters did not do their interior work, and it really ended up causing harm, not only to them, but to a lot of people around them.

This is one of the things that I really love about our curriculum at Pure Desire, our group curriculum, because it really helps people walk through this process of being able to. It's not like your first group meeting that we're going to say, share all your deep, dark secrets and. But it just is through that process of learning more about yourself and about your trauma and about how you've been wounded and also how you connect to other people and how you behave in relationships. And I think all of that change and awareness comes from when we're willing to go below the surface and look at what's there and look at why it's there. I think it's important.

I think we'd be. I think people would be sad if we didn't bring up David, because Dr. Ted talks about him so often in. In the material. That idea of being wounded as a child and how he's seeing that manifesting. You know, you talk about him being a great explorer of his inner world, and you're also having baggage that comes with some negative core beliefs. The thought for me on this one is. And I'm not saying that these writings, this is the only or the primary meaning, but I've also paid attention over the years when Paul's writing his letters, that primarily it starts with identity in Christ and who you are, and then moves into what is the outflow of. And I think that that is evidence that it's important to understand who you are at your core belief level all the way down to the core, to the bottom, if you will, of, you know, the ocean, the water, whatever is your life. And so I think that even in the way, because I've learned this, it's not just what is said in the Bible that is incredible and inspired. It's also the actual organization of it that is also beautiful and meaningful. So, yeah, that's my nerdy section.

You got a lot.

I really appreciate the Gideon stuff, too. That's. That's good. It's very profound.

Yeah. Well. And some of those stories we kind of gloss over the end because we don't like that. Oh, they didn't end real well. But let's just focus on the victories and the miracles.

Right?

I think ending well in life is about knowing who I am and not needing to continually prove myself to others or, you know, win the battles to feel like I'm A somebody. So it's hopefully motivation for everyone to look at and go, you know, if I want to finish, well, going below the surface is part of it. So along those lines, really, practically speaking, what does it look like to go below the surface? It's probably a concept. A lot of listeners are like, yep, yeah, yep, let's do more of that. So how could I. How could we begin to identify some of those below the surface thoughts and feelings and then practically start to address them?

Snorkel flippers.

Just kidding.

Okay, go ahead.

I'm super excited about this because this is the topic of my breakout session for the summit where plug. Yes. Where we're going to really look at not only where do those core beliefs, where do they develop, how do they develop, but even just giving people practical tools to be able to go through a process, to dig deep. And so I'm just gonna use this example because it just happened recently that I was listening to a podcast that was about eating disorders, and at one point the. The doctor who was the expert on it was saying that people who struggle with anorexia, that they tend to be anxious and fearful. And because I have that in my history, that that's one of my things that I struggle with. And so the more I thought about that, even initially I was like, I'm not anxious and fearful.

Shut up, doctor.

Exactly. That doesn't describe me. But then when I could just think about it and even just mull over those words, what does that mean? Then I could look at that and say, I don't want those labels because that makes me feel weak. Because that, if you look at that, that's a weakness. And then even after mulling over it a little bit more, I started to realize that, okay, I can see times in my life where this has been true, that even if it's based on circumstance or something that I'm going through, that there's times when I've been anxious and fearful. And so. But what does that mean? And so even to the point where a few days later, I'm thinking, you know, it might benefit me to have a chat with my mom and see if she describe me as that when I was a child, because there are things that I don't remember or that that wasn't part of my worldview when I was a child. And so a lot of times it's that type of process. It's not that you're going to have this revelation about who you are or what's part of your identity or what's even part of your core belief. And you're going to say, oh, yeah, that totally makes sense. Because initially, we might not like what we see. We might not like what's happening below the surface. But the more that we can evaluate it and walk through this process and even get to a where we can say, you know, okay, Lord, did you make me anxious and fearful? Because scripture says that fear doesn't come from the Lord. So then where does this come from? And even being able to dissect that process is so healthy because it's not gonna happen overnight. It's gonna be a process. And for me, sometimes, because my rational brain wants to say, this doesn't make sense. This doesn't fit with who I am today. Let's just throw this out. But then I'd be really doing myself a disservice to not kind of dig into that and go a little bit below the surface and be able to look at where that comes from. Because if I don't do it today, I'm pretty sure it's going to pop up somewhere else.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Along the lines of this question, I was thinking about the church where I pastored in Washington state. Right behind it, we had a little hill, a small valley that had a small creek in the bottom. And when I mean small, I mean, like 30ft down to the creek, 30ft up the other side, you could have thrown a rock across it easily. I mean, there was houses on the other side, so don't throw rocks. Right, right. But I'm just. I'm trying to give people a picture. It's not like this massive valley, but it was the kind of thing that I drove in and parked by it for 10 years and never really thought about it, paid any attention, looked at it. But one day we had a young gal visit our church to come and see our counselor that we had on staff. And as she got out of her car, I don't know if she was just in kind of a crisis and wasn't thinking straight, or if she put it in neutral and forgot to set the parking brake. But as she got out of the car, her car started to roll away, and it went over the curb and down into that valley. And on that day, I really noticed the valley because we heard her scream. We heard the car. There was a loud crash. We had to go out there with her, console her, and call the tow company, and they come and get a long winch and go down in there with a couple of guys. I mean, it was of kind. Like that day, I paid a Lot of attention.

Totally.

And I remember kind of reflecting on it, going. I spent more time looking at that valley today than I had in the last 10 years. And there were a couple principles about that that I think apply to going deeper. Like, one, on that day, we stopped and we paused. We took time. And I think going deeper takes time. You've got to be willing to step away maybe from your day or your routine and create some space to. To process, to think. The second thing that happened that day is we really noticed. I mean, I noticed a lot about the stream and the size of it and the kind of trees that were down there and the foot, like, because we were just standing there looking. I. I think that's part of going deeper too, is. Is to notice. To notice. What are the thoughts and feelings that come up? What are the beliefs that I tend to hear a lot. Where are they? It's that willingness to notice them. And then the third part of the story that I think is applicable. It required other people's help that. That that car was not going to come out of that little valley without the tow company. And in some ways, there are parts of our inner world, deeper, you know, going deeper, that are so familiar to us that we're not going to be able to fully get into them without some other people that can kind of reflect that process with us, are doing similar work. Because then we know, like, oh, I never thought about that in my own story, that there's just something about having community around us and that might be with a spouse or family member, or it might be a pure desire group, but when others are engaged in that process with us, I think we see a lot more and are able to do a lot more work than we could ever do on our own.

Yeah, absolutely. It's funny, too, you say that it's not funny for that woman, but sometimes it takes a crisis or something happening to cause us to evaluate and to notice.

Oh, there's something here.

Yeah. I think two things came to mind for me. Ask questions, and I mean that in two senses. One, like, I think oftentimes we'll say, like, why do I keep doing this? And then we just move on from that thought. Like, sit there for a second, like, why do I do this? Why do I feel that way? I'm not an expert in this, but just yesterday I was sitting at my computer working on some video stuff, and I literally felt like the fingers of stress were just crawling up my back and I just, like, I was tense, my shoulders were up, and I just, like, Stopped for a second and I was like, what is going on? And this is what's cool is the more I've practiced it, I've realized it's all integrated. Like it's all there. My physical feeling and that the senses mean something. And so I was able to sit there for a second and be like, okay, I just got back from vacation. I have 200 emails in my inbox. I'm pressed to get this video stuff done. No wonder I feel like, get off me stress, you know, like that was a feeling. So I think asking questions like that and then here's like another plug for the summit. Jenna Reimersma is gonna come and talk about internal family systems and that therapy model which you compassionately ask questions about behaviors and feelings and thoughts to try to understand it. When we did that great episode with her of the different parts of me, which we'll put in the show notes, I was dealing with anger at the time and I started to look at my anger not as something that was this terrible, awful thing that I should avoid and never think about, but actually something I should poke holes in and ask questions and try to evaluate what is going on. Why do you keep showing up? What are you trying to help me with? Those kind of things? That's kind of the first part. And Jenna, just so everyone's clear, Jenna is going to be doing two sessions on ifs. It's going to be amazing. Please register for that. Absolutely. Another thing is finding an outlet for the reflection. Like you guys are talking about reflection, sitting, evaluating, waiting, noticing those kind of things. If you don't have some sort of practice or rhythm to evaluate or reflect on those things, I think it ends up being short lived. So for me, journaling is that like. Journaling is a page that I can burden is the best way I've heard it described. I can burden this page with everything going on in my life and it allows me to both get it out and then take a step back and look and just evaluate that valley, so to speak. So I think finding an outlet for reflection is the one thing a lot of people are missing. That's my guess.

Yeah. That is so good. So when it comes to all of this that we're talking about below the surface, let's dig a little bit deeper and really talk about what does it look like to go down to that lowest level of our core beliefs.

Yeah, there's two thoughts for me that come to mind there that we're trying to get at those ideas of what do I really believe to be True about myself and about the world around me. And it really becomes in our brains, it's kind of that construct or that lens through which I see the world and interpret everything else. And I think there are two ways we can kind of get into those. One may be starting at the present and working back. So, like you brought up the illustration, Heather, someone who gets the promotion, but that voice in their head says, oh, you're going to mess this up, or this isn't going to work. When they really find out what you're made of, you're going to be out of there. So for some, it may be paying attention to what are the negative messages I hear even in positive times, or for maybe more of us, it's what are the messages I'm hearing when I am feeling low down? Because I think a lot of us have kind of tape recorder messages about our worth and value that if we paid attention to, we go, oh, I'm always hearing something that says, I'm not good enough or I'm in the way, or I'll never be noticed or I'll never be desired. That's a core belief that we could kind of start working backwards to say, okay, where might that have first come up in my life? Where do I have experiences? Maybe in my childhood or perhaps even before I had cognitive memory that may have communicated those things to me because I can do some investigative work into my family of origin. I can go to my parents and ask questions about our home environment when I was 2, 3, 4 years old. Because we're not trying to recreate the past. But look, honestly, those are many times where our brain was so impressionable that the environments we grew up in may have kind of downloaded some software of this is your value or worth before we even remember some of where it came from. So obviously we're, again, we're not trying to create memories that weren't there. There's, you know, forms of psychology that get way off the mark in that of, you know, trying to remember what happened to you as a baby and then blame people. We're not. We're not trying to blame anyone for those problems.

Yeah.

But just have an honest assessment of what might have happened to me growing up that made me feel like I was in the way. And that can be really, really helpful. The second approach would be more to start with the past and work forward. So we do this in a lot of the pure desire groups. There's an exercise on identifying your 10 worst moments. And in particular, best exercise. Everybody loves that one. Seven Pillars really trying to identify moments earlier in life. And what I think happens for a lot of group members is in a couple of them, they start to pick up on a theme of, like, wow, I had never realized how significant broken relationships were in my life because, you know, my parents didn't divorce. But, man, here's a time where an authority figure broke trust with me. Here's another time a teacher. Here's a time where. And so they start to realize my core belief is I can't trust people. And I'm actually seeing where it came from. So I think those are the two approaches I see working most often. And I think for a lot of people, maybe a combination of those two, of both being aware of what am I presently dealing with, that kind of comes into my head a lot. And what are those experiences from my past that might have created an ongoing false core belief?

Yeah, I think one of the ways that you can identify core beliefs, specifically negative ones, is what are those situations where someone says something to you or does something for you and you're like, no. You know, you kind of have this, like, aversion to, you know, a wound of mine is growing up not feeling like I was smart, like I was just an athlete, and that's all I was good at. And so when someone does tell me that I am smart or that my perspective does matter or I'm just like, that's nice, you know, like, kind of cheeky.

Like they're just saying that.

They're just saying, you're just a nice person, you know. But for me, that is an evidence of a core belief. You know, Another one is when people serve me or do something for me, I try to avoid that or I try to create a situation where someone doesn't have to, because I believe at the core that my needs don't actually matter. And so I, like, weirdly, in a roundabout way, try to avoid that situation because of this belief that I. That my needs don't actually matter. And so I think that being able to identify maybe some of those situations where. And I see it. It's so funny. I see it all the time where someone. And, you know, it's funny, I'll just say this, and she might kill me later for it. But, like, my wife is the most gracious, empathetic, and just giving person. And people talk about that a lot with her. And I think as Christians, we're not very good at receiving compliments. There's my little mini sermon. Work on that later. But, like, the people will say that and it's. We either we all do this, we quickly change the topic, or we find some way to minimize this, like, really nice thing. Somewhere someone said. And so for me, it's like intelligence or someone doing something. For my wife, it could be more like, you're so kind, you know, and of course, you just be like, shut up. Like, leave me alone. Like, you know, let's do something else. Like. But that. I believe that that is an evidence that there's a negative core belief and a wound tied to that that we have to address. As you talked about, we ought to either go from now to the past or the past to now and build up to what that is.

Yeah. And I also think that the reason why it's so important to go down to those core beliefs is because in that mix is our identity, the way we see ourselves, the way we think God sees us, the way we see God, the way we see others. I mean, that's why it's really core to everything that we do through the recovery and healing process. And so if it's. I mean, and I think that it's easy for people to get to the point where they go into those thoughts and feelings and they can have a greater awareness there, and then they're like, okay, I'm good. But really, you haven't done all the work. If you're not willing to then after some time, go down into a little bit deeper to those core beliefs, because otherwise, then you're going to still struggle with who you are.

Yeah. So how do we know we've gone deep enough? Just like, flat out, if we know that behaviors are up top and then you've got thoughts and feelings underneath and then all the way at the bottom, motivating everything we do, our core beliefs, how do we know we've gone all the way down to the bottom to address those? How do we know we've gone deep enough?

So this is an interesting question because.

I helped me write it, by the way.

Yes. Well, because I think that it's easy, especially when we're in the recovery process and we're. We're going through the. The curriculum and we're doing the work to then get to a point where it's like, yes, I've. I've finally arrived. I've done it. I know what this means, and I'm good. And then a little bit later, something else will come up and something that maybe isn't exactly the same as what you worked on before, but I think that there's always parts of us that need Deeper healing. I can't tell you the amount of people at a conference that would come up and say, you know what? I have no memory from before the age of 12. It's a common thing in this arena. And I think that sometimes that's because our brain is protecting us, because it's trying to help us survive whatever our life is throwing at us, that it really has closed off these parts of our brain that we have no awareness of. But then as we get healing and when we're ready, God's going to say, okay, I think you're ready for this, and it's going to reveal something new to us. And so I don't know if. If we actually ever get to the. To the bottom of it. I think that as we continue to grow and grow in all those areas of our life, in mental health and emotional health and spiritually and all of the above, that the more we grow, the more the Lord is going to reveal these areas of our woundedness and really that are attached to that core part of us. And so that would be my answer, is that we don't ever get done. It just is that the healthier that we get, the more willing we are to go there and the more aware we are of when something, you know, catches our attention about ourselves and causes us really to say, okay, maybe this needs a little more evaluation.

Yeah, I totally agree that it's a process and it's ongoing and it may be a lifelong journey that we're on. And that's not to say we'll always battle some deep, dark core belief. I think there definitely will be growth along the way, there will be progress, but there's just so much depth to who we are. And I think part of it is the gift that God wants to invite us into, of helping us learn ever more who we are in Christ. And that that is enough that supersedes the negative core messages of our past, so that in a positive way, can be something we keep learning and exploring and growing in at the same time. You know, I would encourage, like, asking the question, am I moving in the right direction? Might be good. And what I think of is when you experience some strong negative emotions or have those messages come into your mind about, oh, you're such a, you know, you're so worthless. Am I able to pause and think about, oh, oh, yeah, this is one of those old core messages. I'm tempted to believe I can recognize where it's come from. And I've learned some strategies to deal with it that I don't just have to dwell in it for several days before, you know, or go back to an old behavior to cope with it. I'm actually equipped now to deal with it better. I really see those as evidences of making progress, moving in that right direction. And still, yes, an ongoing process, but. But if you're beginning to see some of those awareness pieces and better tools to deal with it, I think you're really at a good place.

Yeah, absolutely.

So we've talked about this a little bit in going deeper that there are definitely parts of it we have to be willing to do as individuals, but it's really not a solo mission that involving other people can be really crucial. So who else should be involved in our exploration of below the surface kind of stuff?

All of your exes. Oh, wow. That just got a lot harder curveball. No, I think that if you're married, your spouse, for sure, and I mean, assess the level of safety and intimacy that's maybe in your marriage. So, you know, exercise some discernment and wisdom there. But at, like, best case, your spouse absolutely should be familiar with what's below the surface because they are probably the person who can best and most often minister to you in those moments if you have a good enough relationship with them. I would say your family can help you explore what's below the surface because they were a part of both the positive experiences and the negative experiences that you have growing up that formed those core beliefs that one can probably be really challenging on some levels. For me, I have a spirit of being very critical, and I believe that that was birthed from my family of origin. But I can't. You know, even as we were talking in this episode, I'm thinking about, like, how do I have that conversation? Just, like, sit my whole family down and be like, we're just a bunch of critical jerks.

Here we go.

You guys suck. You know, like, no, like, that's not.

A family dinner that night.

Oh, gosh, just so bad. And then the third one for me is your group or community or friends, like, the people who know you best. I think what's really cool and I've done this. Our producer, Justin, who's sitting right here, who's one of my best friends in the whole world, he just perked up. Now he's listening.

I could see it.

But, like, I will ask him questions about my experience to, like. And I'm like, I'm pulling him underneath. I'm throwing him some goggles, you know, and an oxygen pack, saying, hey, come down here with me. For a second. Can you help me explore and figure it out? He comes down with a flashlight, right? And he's just like, oh, there it is. Like, hopefully you're watching this because that's probably fun for you. But. But I think that that is a really cool way where you invite your group members or your friends who know you well, your community, the people who you trust and are intimate with, to help you explore because they will be able to point things out that maybe you've glossed over before. They've got a fresh set of eyes coming down to it. So I think those are the three groups of people I think I would involve.

Yeah, those are good. And I know that with the story that I shared earlier about that feedback of being anxious and fearful, I immediately went to my core people and I this is what this episode said. Do you see this in me? And one of my friends said, let me think about that. The other one was like, oh, yeah, I can totally see that. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

And I'm like, was that Ashley? That sounds like Ashley.

No, but it was just this idea that they have a different lens than I have. Then they see even everything that they know about me. They see that different and can say, oh, yeah, I can see this. When you've done this, that's what that looks like. Or when you've done this, that's what that looks like. Which is great for me because then it gives me the opportunity to look at that with a different lens, with a new lens, and get a new perspective about that. So I think that your safe people, like you said, are super important. And then even sharing with my husband that same day, and he had some other things to say about it that gave me another new pair of lens. So that's.

I missed one. Can you get it? Do you know which one I missed? I missed a big one.

Well, I'll share my answer, then you can jump back in. I think the groups of people you guys are sharing about, to me, what is needed. And they could be family, spouses, friends, group members. It's people who are on the same journey is what we need. Those that can relate, those that are walking that same path, because we will hear things in their story that we are seeing. And that sense of not being alone, I mean, I think about the betrayed spouses, groups that we offer through pure desire, and the ways that for so many women, and in a smaller degree, men as well, we just don't have as many of those groups. But so many women have said, I thought I was the only one. I thought it was my problem. I thought I wasn't good enough. But when I heard. And then they'll say, you know, this group member share, I realized I saw my story differently. And so I think when we've got other people headed in the same direction that are doing their work as well, and I would emphasize that, like, not just people that are going to wallow in the misery with you. You can go to any bar in the world and find that. No, I mean, people that they're actually trying to deal with their stuff too, and grow and change. You'll just hear things from them that will help you in your story. And so I think that's what's needed. So if your issue is pornography, find people that are working hard to recover from pornography. If it's betrayal, find that. If it's eating issues, find that group. If it's abuse issues, like, find people that are walking that road because it'll make such a difference in your ability to go to those places that maybe you just haven't had the tools to before.

Yeah, the one I missed is really obvious, I think.

Is it Jesus?

It absolutely is the law. I know, it's funny, but, like, as I'm even saying this, I'm like, how quickly I go to my wife or my friends or my journal or whatever. But don't actually take it to the Lord, because I know for me, I struggle with inviting the Lord into those messy parts. Like, is he there? Absolutely. He's already there. Like, you know, one of my favorite books from this last year said that your brokenness is not a hotel that God checks in and checks out of. It's literally where he takes up his permanent residence. Residence, which is. I love that. So beautiful. But I need to lean into that. Like, I need to invite him in and say, where am I acting out of this belief? That's not true. Help me, Lord. And the Holy Spirit is really, really powerful. It can do amazing things. But I oftentimes. I often. And this. There's this weird dynamic between, you know, God's will and my free will and how they interact and play. But, like, God does want to be invited in to your life, to below the surface, to help you explore. And he is the best at it. And so I just. Even in my answer, I was so quick to just like, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Totally, totally. But I think it's important to circle back. Like, he should be first and foremost in that.

So then, is it ever possible for someone to go so deep, you know, Go so deep into those core beliefs that they get stuck?

You know, that's a really good question. As I think about it, I don't think it's a problem with going too deep, because I think there's no depth where the Holy Spirit doesn't meet us. And I mean, we talk about, you know, nor height, nor depth, nor anything in all creation can separate us from God's love. Like, any depth you go to, God's spirit is there, and I believe he'll bring people along that are willing to go there with us. Yeah, but there are definitely places we can get stuck. And I would go back to the medical analogy. Like, if I do go face whatever I've been feeling and get the MRI or CAT scan and I get a report back about cancer, I can get stuck in, you know, looking at the results and looking at the. The scanned images and studying what cancer is and researching the problem and where does it come from. And if that's all I do, I'm really stuck in my diagnosis, and that's not healthy. If I never turn the page and say to the doctor, like, okay, what are the. What are the solutions? What can we do? What are the remedies? What. What approaches can I take for health? What procedures can be done like that, that turn? And it's so obvious in medical things. It's like, well, of course, who would want to be stuck in the cancer? And yet, I think in our core beliefs, there is a temptation sometimes to wallow or be stuck in. Man, I feel worthless, and here's where it came from. And I had a terrible upbringing, and all these things happened to me, and. And you can hear people kind of live in there, and it's like, you know, that's not your destiny. Like, you need to turn the page to realize I'm. The purpose of seeing that is so that I can learn who I really am in Christ. I can replace those negative core experiences with new positive experiences where I remember who God says I am, and I experienced his value in my life. It's about turning that corner. So, yeah, I think there's lots of places we can get stuck. I don't know that it's about going too deep, because I wouldn't ever want someone to feel like, well, I don't want to get too deep or it's dangerous. Like, no, I just don't want to get stuck in the diagnosis because I want to believe that the purpose of the diagnosis is so that God, through his Holy Spirit and others can meet me and we can work towards health and recovery.

And I think that's what's so important about having a group or having a community is that those are the people who be like, you've been saying this for six months now. And I like, and you know, someone's.

Your friend, I love you, but what are you doing?

Yeah. What are, like, what's up? Like, come on. You know, And I think that there is a moment in relationship and I think that that's what's so cool is you give the keys to your healing, to your health, to your ongoing process of sanctification to other people. Absolutely.

I think there are certain things that happen to us and around us in our lives that maybe require us to stay deep for a little bit longer. You know, sometimes we have to walk through that in order to get to the other side to be able to turn the page. And, and, but I completely agree that there really isn't anything that should be fearful about going deep. It's just making sure that we have healthy people around us and even if we feel stuck, that maybe we get counseling or maybe we do something that's going to help us in a different way or in a new way to keep moving forward.

Yeah. I wanted to add that caveat. As we talk about being stuck, we don't want to shame ourselves or others for being stuck.

Right.

Because sometimes, and we've talked about this a lot on the podcast, like we might be trying to tell someone, get over it. Just, you know, hurry up, move through it. Like, yeah, this is not a speed sport and it's not predictable how quickly someone might move through things. And so if you're feeling stuck, I think it's healthy to maybe ask why? And maybe if the answer is, I'm just grieving, it's like, okay, grieve and grieve as long as you need to. And don't feel like shame on me for grieving for, you know, this period of time when others got over it a lot faster. But maybe you do realize, well, I think I'm stuck because I'm not inviting others in or I'm not working on my self care or I'm not, you know, so you might be able to see some things you could work on, but. But that you'll probably never get to the health of that question if you're beating yourself up for being stuck. So I just wanted to make sure in our answers to this, someone doesn't take away like, okay, if I'm stuck, shame on me. Because that's not what we're saying. We are. We are saying we can get stuck if we don't look at the solution. But if you're feeling stuck, like, like Heather said, invite others in and maybe analyze why am I stuck here? And for a time, that might just be where you're at, but believe that's not your destiny. That's not where you're intended to stay forever. And there will be tomorrow. There will be a next step where your life will look different.

Yeah, it's a good word. All right, so plug of all plugs right here. Okay. How will this week's summit? We've talked a couple, like, a little bit about your session and some of Jenna's sessions as well. How is this week's summit going to help us go below the surface?

Well, because we've told all the speakers, that's the theme.

That was a very practical response.

All joking aside, like, these are really high caliber people, whether we're talking Jenna or our staff that are really thinking through, what does this look like in my life, what does this look like in parenting or in groups or in my personal walk. And they're really going to bring, I think, their stories, they're going to bring their experience and expertise and. And, you know, I just love sitting under people that have done work like that. And that's not to say any of us are perfect, that are presenting, but there's some processing. And I think just being around this kind of environment, it's like my daughter, I just thought of the story last week. She was at a really kind of high level running camp. And when we picked her up and we were driving home, one of the things she said was, I think my favorite part was just being around people who think and talk like I do.

Cool.

That, like, they really. They get excited about races and they talk about shoe brands and they look at, you know, the kind of running shorts and. Yeah, because she'll bring that up in her circle of friends at her high school. And a lot of her friends are.

Like, ugh, all Alyssa Nike's better than Brooks. What are you talking about?

They just say, well, all Lissa talks about is running. And in this environment, it was like, yeah, because we all loved running. And so they couldn't stop talking about it. I think that's what the conference, the summit is like, is being around an environment where going below the surface is something we all look at and go, yeah, this is so good for us. It's so healthy. There's so much redeeming work that can come of this that it'll just Be an environment that really spurs and motivates all of us towards the next step in our journey.

Yeah.

I'm super excited about all of the sessions, the main sessions, as well as the breakout sessions that are gonna, like, you mentioned a couple of them, but go below the surface in your marriage or go below the surface in our emotions. And I just think that it's gonna be super fun. And like you said, it's gonna be all the people who we love. Pure desire. We love what Pure Desire is about. And this just gives us all an opportunity to really dig a little bit deeper, a little bit deeper into our healing.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, another great reason. Me and Jen Howey are gonna be hosting and emceeing the whole thing. It is gonna be a riot. It's gonna be amazing. But yeah. Ben Bennett speaking. Keith Jenkins, Jenna Reimersman. Nick and Ashley also have some other general sessions. Parent, you already talked about parenting, emotional health, marriage. We are covering the gambit with it and it's going to be really, really fun and meaningful. And that's what we want. We want it to be a good experience and to be profitable for you as well. So if you can't tell, this whole episode is to encourage you to register for this week's Pure Desire Summit. Go to PureDesire.orgSummit. you can register. And again, if you're local, you can register for in person. Do it. If you're not local in the Oregon area might be a little bit late, but we do have virtual options. You will have access to the entire live stream of it and be able to see all of the breakouts as well. So please go register to that. Guys, thank you for the conversation. This is meaningful. This isn't just something that's about an event. This is a topic that we all need in our healing and recovery.

Yes.

And our process of growth. So thanks for your time.

Yeah, this was fun.

Good stuff. Thanks.

And wherever you're at on your journey, Pure Desire is here to help create a roadmap for your healing. You or someone you know is impacted by sexual brokenness or betrayal trauma. Go to PureDesire.org and let's start the healing journey today. Don't forget to subscribe to the podcast. Each week we put out new content to help you on the road to freedom from the effects of sexual brokenness and betrayal trauma. And lastly, never stop being healthy.

Sam.