219 - Introverts In Group

You're listening to the Pure Desire Podcast, your safe place to find hope, healing and freedom from sexual addiction, betrayal and relationship issues. What's up, people? I'm your host, Trevor Windsor, and you're listening to episode 219 of the Pure Desire Podcast. You're joining me, as always, is my co host, Nick Stumbo.

That's me. Stapler. No, that's my stapler.

Why don't you fill the people in on. I don't remember the name of that character.

I don't. And I just watched the movie like. Yeah, about a year ago. I mean, about a month ago I saw the movie again and yeah, we're gonna have to move your desk. Poor guy gets moved all over. But man, in the end, like, he's the one that gets that kind of just reward. But yeah, I can't remember his name either. I should have looked it up. As you know, I've got some phone issues right now, so I didn't have my, my Googler handy for that. But classic movie, great line. And I'm guessing a true introvert, that man.

There we go. There's the connection. So today we had Dan Howey, who's our online groups administrator, to talk about introverts who are in Pure Desire groups.

Yeah, we're just in the next two weeks. The introvert extrovert side of recognizing that our personality types, the ways we're wired to, just our level of comfortability about being around other people impacts our journey. And so we all need to go through healing through our own lens. Like it's gonna be different person to person, but we don't wanna see either as either a bad thing or a good thing. So it's a really great theme in this podcast, is like, it's not that introverts are bad and extroverts are good, it's that we're all facing our own challenges in a different way. And I think that's one of the themes that came out today. So I think for everyone, whether you're the introvert, you're married to an introvert, or you've been in group with introverts, you're going to take a lot out of this. Just in thinking through how can we all be, how can we all benefit or bless one another on this journey, no matter what side of that spectrum we land on.

Totally. And Dan's an introvert, so he speaks directly to it, which is great. So this is a really good episode, but a few things. Subscribe to the podcast on all the major platforms and if you can write us a review. I haven't said that in a while, but if you do write us a review, it helps other people find the podcast and gets us on really new people find us when you do that. So please do that on any platform. Follow us on social media, your desirepdmi. And then we are also full episodes of these are up on YouTube. And Nick, we just wanna circle back every once in a while and remind people that they can join our team on something we're calling Team 58.

Yeah, you know, I was thinking the other day about the story of Nehemiah, and when they came back to Jerusalem and the city was vulnerable because there was no wall, and what a massive undertaking that had to be for a country to feel like, how do we rebuild this wall when we've got, like, no resources, very little, you know, supplies? But there's a line in there that says that every family worked on the wall in front of their own home. And as everyone did that, they actually completed the wall in like, 52 days. And it made the nations fearful because they saw that God was on their side. And it just struck me how when everyone was doing what they could do, it allowed a group of people to accomplish something really, really significant. And I think that's for us, what Team 58 is all about. Team 58 is what we've called everyone who's a part of making a monthly gift of any size to Pure Desire Ministries. Because then together, it's like we're building this wall of safety and protection and healing and hope and freedom. And if it's only a few of us building, it leaves a lot of gaps in the wall. And so we're just inviting people to be a team. 58 comes from Isaiah 58, as listeners know where at the end of Isaiah 58, the prophet says that you will be known as those who rebuild the broken walls and restore the fallen cities. And I think as God brings healing into our life and we're looking at, how can I be a part of helping others? This is one of the ways we can do that. And so if it helps, the team acronym helps us feel like, remind us that we're doing it together. That's what it's all about. Yeah.

And you absolutely can be a part of helping rebuild and restore homes and families and communities. So if you want to join team 58, go to PureDesire.org give all right, here is our conversation with the introvert himself, Dan Howey, on introverts in Pure Desire groups. Dan Howey, welcome back.

Thank You, Trevor.

What's funny?

People don't understand this. Probably if you've been listening to the podcast for a while, you might know this, but we used to just cut those out. Like if somebody did something like that, we'd just be like, and we're gonna start again. But now we're just. This is our authentic self.

I feel like. Did you do that on purpose to do like a robot voice for the introvert theme? Is that.

No, I was trying to think of something much wittier to say and that's all that came.

Huh.

And this. I got nothing.

Fair enough. Well, let's awkwardly transition.

We're off to a roaring start. Yes. Yes.

Or a non vocal start. Dan, you have led tons of groups, and from my personal experience of you, I would call you an introvert.

I would say that that is accurate.

Okay. So we figured it would be a super comfortable scenario to have you on to talk about introverts in pure desire groups.

There you go.

So let's just start this. Let's say we're an introvert. We are thinking about a pure desire group. What are some things that we need to be aware of when we're joining that peer desire group?

I think the first thing that came to mind when I read that question was, if I'm going to a group with many other men, the goal might be to change me from an introvert to an extrovert. If you were just different. I mean, we're going there because we have a problem. If we're just different, everything will get better. And, and often people will say, you know, you just don't talk too much. You know, you're just quiet. Maybe, maybe we could hear more from you. And, and the feeling as an introvert that you get is, oh, my introversion is. Is something to be conquered and eventually change it. And that's not the goal of group. The goal is not to change you from an introvert to an extrovert. The definition isn't of an introvert isn't that you don't want to speak. It's that you, you typically don't gain energy or don't gain life by being with a lot of people. You're just, that's, that's just the way your makeup is. So I think ideally, understanding that you're, you're fine. But the goal of group isn't to change you.

So, yeah, yeah. I think it's important to consider what we mean by introvert. That an introvert isn't just someone that doesn't like being around People. Because if we struggle with that, we may need to take an honest look at. Why don't I like being around people? Do I have. Do I have trust issues? Do I have. I don't like being vulnerable. So there may be some areas of growth there. But what you just pointed out, Dan, an introvert is really someone that is fueled or re. Energized more by being alone and by solitude and being around people, particularly the more people. It's draining. And so I think for the introvert joining group, that's what I would say is just to be aware that your group night might be draining. It might be heavy. I mean, and I think many of us, even who are extroverts, have found that. I mean, I remember when I would go to counseling at the beginning of my journey and I would just drive home, like I felt like I was beat, like I just run a marathon or something, but on an emotional level. And so I think if you're an introvert, especially to just be aware of that and maybe try to plan accordingly that the night after group you're able to just go home and lay low, or maybe the next day is an off day or whatever, you need to kind of find that healthy rhythm. Because if group is going to be kind of a draining experience, like Dan said, that doesn't mean that's wrong or you need to fix that. That just may be a reality of how you're wired and so kind of planning accordingly so that you have adequate time to get refueled around your group. Time could be really important.

Yeah, I think it's important to know as an introvert walking in a group, that participation is absolutely essential, like whatever level that may look like, not just for you. I mean, this is a big thing for me that I experienced through group is that in order for me, if I'm an introvert, which everyone who listens to this podcast knows I'm not, but let's pretend, okay? If I'm an introvert and I walk into group and I don't participate, my own healing is I'm gonna lose. I'm gonna lose in that scenario. I'm not gonna gain what I could gain. I'm not gonna get the traction I want to get. But also, the people who are in the group as well will lose out on my participation. They'll lose out on the work that I have done at the examples or stories from my life that I'm sharing. And so I think you just need to understand that your participation is essential for the group to. To Process the way it's supposed to process. But again, you don't have to love it or it be the most exciting time of your week, but just know that your participation is very much needed.

Yeah.

So as extroverts, Dan, sometimes we are interested in trying to draw the introvert out and fix them, so to speak, make them more social. But that may not always be the most helpful method. So what can we do as group members or group leaders to really try to connect with an introvert and help them feel welcome and included in the group?

I think the first, most important piece, like any group member is building trust. And trust comes from being a vulnerable leader. So that's why we say, you know, when you start group as a leader, the first person, the first story that's shared is yours. Just lay it on the line. You are in the same boat. A realization I had about myself around this was vulnerability. I just like, why am I unwilling to be vulnerable? And it finally dawned on me that when I was vulnerable, it always led to what I felt was like correction. Vulnerability led to correction. The last thing it did was connect. So vulnerability was very difficult for me to engage in because I'm like, every time I tell you something, everyone's like, well, if you just do this and change that, and why would you think that? That seems craz, you know, I'm just like, well, you know what, I'll just back off.

Yeah, this is why I don't share.

Right, Exactly. You just proved my point exactly. I will just tell you what you want to hear from here on out. So being able to connect on that level of like, hey, that guy's actually, you know, been been down some a road similar, something like that. And then also, especially at the beginning, don't pry for information. Don't push, push. Which we should never really do.

Right.

But that's especially important in the beginning. It's just like, let them feel comfortable and affirm what's been said at the beginning.

Yeah, I felt like that's the thought that comes to mind for me. And I've seen it again. I'm not an introvert, so I can't resonate in that sense. But I've seen in group, when you respect boundaries of someone who's more introverted in that sense, where maybe we're having a group discussion about someone's story or some element and I'm thinking about all the different teams and scenarios I'm in. Sometimes you'll look at the introvert who hasn't said anything or the multiple people who are there and say, do you have any thoughts? And that person's like, no, then move on. Just be like, okay, here we go, you know, let's keep going. Instead of like, well, are you sure? It feels, you know, like that's the, like, prodding, the poking that creates that unsafe situation.

Well, and realize in every group any of us are ever going to be in, you're going to have a spectrum of people from the less talkative, more introverted to the more talkative, extroverted. And there will be a mix in every group and for both ends of the spectrum, they may need some help. And that's where I really think the group guidelines are so helpful because it really encourages that everyone does their homework, they bring it ready to share, and then they share what they wrote. And whether you're the introvert or the extrovert, that can be helpful because as the extroverts, it kind of keeps us on task. Like, well, this is what I wrote. And the introverts, I think it can provide that safety of I just share what I wrote and I don't have to come up with stuff on the spot or be creative or funny or witty. Like, I just, here's my answers. And that's where I think as a group we want to affirm people on both sides, like, hey, thanks for sticking to what you wrote and sharing that. Or for the introvert, thanks for sharing what you wrote and not, not feeling like there's got to be more to it because the group guidelines really encourage us share what you wrote and so follow them.

Yeah, yeah. And then. Cause I, I've seen this too, where you can ask permission to ask a question like if an introvert is sharing something in group and you know, you might have a little bit of insight into something instead of advice giving, which is a great way to shut an introvert down. Right. As Dan has shared, it could be something where you say, hey, can I ask a question about that? And if they say no again, it's like, okay, you know, let's move on. But if they say yes, they've given you that open door to then help explore with them. So I think it's not that you can't push or prod or even enter into that space, but just being careful.

For sure, for sure.

So without doing that, right, without poking, prodding, you know, feeling like you're basically trying to draw out something that maybe isn't there, how do we get introverts to engage and share in the conversational group?

Yeah, you touched on it. We've touched on a bunch of things already. Affirmation, first of all, just affirming first of all what they do share. Thanks for sharing. Yeah, really appreciate that. I see your heart or whatever. Just affirm what they're doing and then advice giving versus asking questions which is, I mean that's not just for introverts, that's for everybody. But it's especially important for the introvert to not ask the yes or no question. An open ended clarifying question has value for everyone and it is one excellent way to get an introvert to talk because oftentimes when it's an open ended question, an introvert has the opportunity to speak rather than respond to a comment. Like if you tell me something now I have to make a choice, do I agree, do I disagree? What's the easiest way to respond when you ask a question that's like, oh, I mean I can still go through those questions, those options, but it's a little bit easier for me to do that and then follow up. You know, just because you, you ask a question there could be more. There's always an opportunity to ask a second question.

And maybe it's not in that group setting, maybe it's something after group or just one on one you have that conversation which may be a more comfortable scenario for that introvert.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

And I think we can do things like giving people an opportunity to take the floor. You know, extroverts will tend to jump in, you know, okay, who has, you're working through the lesson, who had an observation from the reading they want to share and you got a few people that just, they'll go. I think as a leader I've tried to make sure to give other people the floor to say, hey Kevin, any thoughts on this one? Any like you said Trevor, if they say no, it's like great. But sometimes that's what they need is like the space to know. No one's going to jump in on me. I don't have to like get my word in first because I think a lot of introverts will just kind of wait and hang back and they may have some great things to share but they're not going to try to talk over someone or interrupt. They're just more patient I think in a lot of ways. So I think as group members or leaders just making sure we give people that opportunity again without pressure but that they know okay. Or the other thing I was going to say maybe like doing the check ins where you just go around the table, we're going to start on my left and we're going to go around. So then the introvert doesn't have to figure out, okay, when do I jump in? Or who's now just like, well, I'm the third person in line and then it'll be my turn. I think that can help give them that comfort of knowing when it's their turn to share.

Yeah. And another great thing about that is an introvert will sometimes sit back and say, someone else probably already is going to say what I'm going to wrote down so I don't have to. And then by the time there's that awkward pause, the leader's like, all right, let's move on. And they either don't share the same thing, or someone else could say, finally someone thinks the same as me, or, wow, I hadn't thought of that, like you said.

And I think if you're an extrovert, you have to be aware of that. I know for me, like, the silence is really uncomfortable. Like, I just want to jump in and be like, okay, who's got, you know, like, as if I'm somehow saving people from this potential awkward, you know, spot. When in reality there may be introverts who are waiting for that exact moment and then are prompted. So if you don't give space as a leader or even an extroverted group member for that, like, you may miss out on some stuff and you may miss out on some good conversations that come from introverts.

Yeah. So I think sometimes in a group scenario, if someone is quiet, we maybe feel like, well, they're. They're being reserved or they're just. They don't want to share. And I need to try to encourage. I need to draw them out. And it can be hard to know is this just their personality or are they maybe stuck in some shame and I need to help. So where would you say is that line, Dan, between trying to encourage an introvert or really any group member who's being quiet to encourage them to engage and share more or making them feel badgered during group time?

Yeah, and that. And that's a. That like you said, it's a fine line. And. And it's not with just introverts. I think that it looks different with extroverts can talk around things and talk over and like.

And not really answer.

And not really answer. Right.

That feels very pointed to this side of the table. I mean, what you're talking about.

Just an observation, but yeah. And it really goes back to, for me, what we just talked about giving some space, not rushing. Don't. We're not in a. This is a long process to begin with, and a couple extra moments is not going to make or break anybody's healing process. Affirmation. I just can't emphasize that enough. If someone truly feels like they can say what they truly believe without it being picked apart or anything like that, it will really go a long way. But also, don't. Don't single that person out. If every week your proverbial Kevin is the talk a little bit more about that. You want to expound on that.

Why am I the only one that the group leader ever seems to do that to?

I always have to tell Terry to shut up. But, Kevin, I'm just gonna keep asking you. So I think the rules, not rules, but the guidelines for everyone. It's like, treat everybody the same and don't single someone out.

I think, too, if you do maybe badger an introvert in group and you sense that or you feel that or even say something like that to you, apologize. Just own it. Just be like, I'm sorry. And if it's you being uncomfortable in the moment, you know, maybe it's that. Maybe it's you care about them and are seeing connections with their story and want to help them, and you just, you know, we're a little over the top, like, apologize for that. But I also think that what's cool is, like, these are real relationships. These are just normal, like, human beings who all have stories of brokenness that you're going together with. And if I want to know how to better communicate with someone, the best way to do that is to ask them. Like, it's such a simple thought, but we don't think about that. We don't think, oh, I should ask Kevin, like, hey, when we're in group and I feel like I'm sensing something or picking something up, what's the best way for me to ask questions or to help you explore that? Maybe the response is, you're doing a good job. Maybe the response is, well, when you single me out or you press really hard or you don't respect my boundaries, that doesn't help. That way you get a better sense. And again, These groups are 10 months long. Like, you're going to have a long time of meeting weekly with these people. And so also know that over time, you might get a lot more comfortable with. With each other. And that sort of that rhythm or that cadence to the relationship or communication, I think will get picked up over time. But it's okay to Ask and figure that out and allow that person to speak into how you can better help me as an introvert.

Yeah, yeah. I think a private one on one conversation can go a long way. Even if you see someone in group that was very quiet, not just assuming that, well, they were shut down or they're just an introvert, but following up and saying, you know, I noticed in group you didn't share much tonight. I'm just checking, are you okay? And I hope I didn't make you feel pressured, but I did. I wanted you to participate in the group and you may find out that they've been working a crazy schedule and they were just really, really tired and they didn't have as much energy. It's like, oh, okay. So we want to make sure not to read into situations. And I think that's best done by those one on one conversations where especially for an introvert, they're not worried about everyone else hearing or who else is in the room. It's like, okay, now we can just share a little bit more one on one. And so, yeah, I think as a leader, especially if that's our group, we need to take some initiative to have those follow up conversations because over time I think that can really benefit the group environment.

Yeah. And even if you're not a group leader, you're just another group member. You can also have those conversations. It's okay to do that together. So what are some unique challenges then to leading interviews? Because someone who is quiet, who doesn't engage a whole lot and you feel like you do have, it's almost like pulling teeth to get them to share. That can be challenging. But what are some other scenarios too that might be challenging in leading an introvert?

Well, from experience, personal introverts are sneaky. They are good at turning the conversation back to you. A typical strategy I employ is like, you'll ask a question, I'll be like, oh, that's a great question. What do you think? I really hadn't thought about that. Let me, give me a second to think about it. Tell me what you think.

And you ask an extrovert something and they're just, let me tell you.

And that sounds good to me too.

Yeah, so, so they're good. Some of the challenges is, for me that I've seen is they'll, they'll throw that question right back at you or do the, do the performance thing where it's like they're, they'll tell you what they think you want to hear. Because the quickest way to move past is to have the right answer. And so, Jesus. Yeah, we know there's no real right answer other than, you know, honesty in these groups. So, you know, if it feels performancey, it probably is probably, you know, and we certainly don't want to walk into an outside conversation saying, you know, what felt you like you're putting on a performance, but, you know, just checking in. And then also the laying low guy, you know, just again, waiting for others to share. So, like you said, you know, having not just a situation where it's like, who. Who got something out of this next passage? Because that's. I do that a lot.

Yeah.

And part of that is because I'm an introvert and I don't want to either start or I don't want to take the responsibility of asking someone then them being uncomfortable. So, I mean, there's all sorts of things. So look for the guy who's laying low and have that process where everybody has a chance to share by calling on them. So it's not feeling like it's singled out.

Yeah. Again, I think it's where the group guidelines are your friends to emphasize at the beginning of group, a couple weeks in, bring it up again and just say, we all participate. It's our sharing our answers that helps us heal. And hearing other people's story is what will impact us. And so it's an expectation that everyone will come prepared and ready to answer. And I'll even say it like, if you're a little more on the quiet side, it may be a challenge for you to do that. And if you're more on the talkative side, it'll be a challenge for you to stick to what you wrote. But for all of us, we need to try to have this space where we come expecting to participate. And one of the things I've done too, there's a lot of the lessons in Seven Pillars and I'm sure in BNB and Unraveled as well, where it's either a scripture passage or maybe a really significant paragraph, and I'll just ask someone to read it out loud during group. And I make sure to include everybody in that. So the group kind of gets the feel like, oh, any of us could be asked to read out loud. It's not just one or two people, but if you even go around and have everyone read one or two sentences from a scripture passage, that can create even that comfort of, we've all heard each other's voices, We've all participated in something, and it can kind of break that ice of getting Everyone involved.

I feel like I'm hearing maybe a listener asking this question. How do I know when it's okay to put push in? Like maybe we're a little bit earlier in group. Maybe we're like a month, two, maybe three months in. And I sense what you were talking about, Dan, like maybe the performance stuff or the standoffish not wanting to engage. Like, obviously you pressing in is not necessarily going to ruin this person's recovery and the rest of the group. But how do you, for both of you guys, how have you picked your spots? Like, what things do you look for? What situations are you kind of anticipating for when you do press in and be like, actually, let me see more from you on that.

For me, if there is a significant emotion either shutting down or maybe an overreaction, that's an opportunity and a clue to say, all right, there's maybe something else there. And a very simple open ended question. Tell me a little bit more about that or what emotion are you feeling? Or just describe, you know, what, has this been a part of your makeup for a long time? Something like that. So those are, those are good clues for me. Like if like you were saying a guy's just like removed from group the whole time, that's, that's a clue to kind of push in. And when we say push in again, that's, that's really, you know, an opportunity for us to ask a question, not push in.

Hey, I've noticed you're really, really quiet.

Yeah.

Yeah, don't do that.

Yeah. I think we have to remember that everyone will go through recovery at their own pace. And so sometimes a person is quiet, not even because they're introverted, but just because they're processing or it's a part of the recovery journey that they're not connecting with as much. And I say to myself and other leaders a lot, trust the process. Trust that if they stay engaged and they're doing the work, there will be parts that are much more meaningful to them or that help them open up. And I think you have to be patient with the journey and let people process it at their own speed and not, you know, want them to go at our speed. And when we do that, I think people really have the freedom to process the way they're wired and not feel like they've got to become someone they're not, just to get through the group process.

And one other quick note that I've noticed. If someone spends more time talking about someone else than themselves, that's another kind of back end way for at least oftentimes an introvert and probably extroverts as well, is to deflect the emotion that they feel by talking about someone else. So again, if, if they're talking, you know, my wife's doing this and, or my friend or my boss or my co worker, it's like, all right, that's, yeah, it, they're involved, but this really has something to do with you. So let's, let's bring it back to that. Yeah.

So what if I'm in group and I'm the introvert? Maybe many people listening, that's what they're thinking. And I'm thinking, especially in a scenario where maybe the group experience is just. It's hard, it's draining, they're finding it a little challenging. What encouragement would you give to them as that introvert about being a full participant in group?

Yeah, I think the goal of group, the goal of health one of them is to be fully known and be fully loved. And we can't be fully loved until we're fully known. And we talk about wearing masks in one of the lessons and this mask that we project something else and cover up our real self, that is a lifeline for many of us. The goal isn't to make a relationship that you know, where you connect on every level, where you know you're going back to fifth grade and you have your best friend. The goal is to become known as an individual, be honest as an individual and still and risk that and be able to be fully loved and accepted. So I think the real hope and encouragement is this isn't, this isn't about making a relationship, a best friend relationship. It's about you being vulnerable and you don't, you're not responsible for the other person's liking you, disliking you, connecting with you or you with them. It's really about, this is who I am.

Yeah. So, yeah, I think I just, I feel like what I want introverts to understand about group is that. And it's echoing what you said at the beginning, Dan. The goal is not to become an extrovert. And I think when you get into group and you realize how honest you have to be, there becomes this like fear of, do I have to be like that with everyone that I know in my entire life? And I'm just going to say very clearly, no, you don't like these people who you're in group with? Yes. Like that is part of being fully known and then fully loved and accepted, which for a lot of us extroverts and introverts. We've never experienced that really, maybe even to any level. And so I feel like it's not something where you're having to then live this like wide open, vulnerable, all the time type of person because as an extrovert that's scary. So I can only imagine how scary that is as an introvert. And so just know that that's not the goal. It's going to be very condensed into this group. You may see your marriage and your really close friendships bloom into that where you are completely open and honest and vulnerable. But it's not something where you have to shout your whole life and struggle from the rooftops.

Yeah, well, and I think too to remember the goal of group is really helping all of us to own our own story, to face the pain in our life and learn how to deal with it constructively and not avoid. So the truth is, whether we're introverted, extrovert, extroverted or somewhere in between, we all have ways of trying to avoid that and wanting to escape our pain. And the truth is we have to lean in and face it and it's going to be hard whether we're the introvert or the extrovert. So maybe the extrovert will try to more talk their way out of it while the introvert stays silent. But it may be helpful for us in group to realize we're all actually doing the same thing, just in different ways. We're struggling to come to grips with some of our reality and own it in front of other people because we've spent so much time shaming ourselves for those things and telling ourself, if I'm ever truly honest about this stuff, I'll be rejected anyway. And so we're facing that dilemma. And if the introvert and extrovert can see that truth of, hey, we're kind of all facing the same struggle, just in very different ways. I think that can bring us together as a group in a lot of ways.

So. And maybe not all introverts, but I feel like there is a sense of like, I don't need more relationships in my life.

Life. Amen.

I've actually heard group members say that.

Oh man, they're being sincere. Very, very.

But a pure desire group is completely based on the foundation of relationship and creating more relationships. And so how does an introvert reconcile that? I don't need more friends, but I do need this extra community of people that are going to know me at a really scary level. How do those two fit together?

Yeah, I, I think that was, that's a really good question. And I don't think it's a, it's a question. It's almost a question or a discussion to be had at the beginning of group because I think it's a really good point. And we often have our definition of relationship and it's pretty, pretty sad. Like people will say, I have to have relationships with my family or my coworkers or whoever it may be. And that's not the only relationship there is in life. And so broadening our definition of what a relationship is like for me, I have a relationship that is healing and vulnerable in nature. And I treat that relationship differently than some of the social and familial relationships that I have because they do serve different purposes. So for here, I'm not looking to have that same relationship type with my group members.

They won't come over for Thanksgiving.

Exactly. And if they do, well, you know, you hit the jackpot because that's typically not going to happen. But maybe it does. So but for me, I don't have to look for it and strive for that. I don't have to put this relationship into that category. And that kind of relieves me of this pressure to perform or act or look for a certain outcome because my outcome is realistic and it has a purpose.

This makes me think about a truth that we know even in our society, and that's that men in general often struggle with friendship. And it can be for a lot of reasons. But I think underlying many of those reasons is that fear of rejection or the fear of failure and not knowing how to be open and vulnerable with other people to the point that I feel like, oh, they genuinely like being around me. And that's the opportunity, I would say, maybe especially for an introvert to see. But for all people in group, like, there is very often experience of understanding a new kind or a new way of friendship where I'm sitting in a room with people that really know all my stuff and they haven't run out of the room, you know, they're still there and they care about me and they support me as I do them. And I think growing in that sense of friendship maybe even causes us to redefine relationships in some sense. Because if, if we are introverted and have a very small, close knit circle of people, there may be a lot of fear around letting anyone else in because of what will they think of me. And so in group that opportunity is just there for discovering friendship. And I think I've just watched a lot of group members have that be part of their healing, is they understand how to be friends, maybe for the first time in their life.

Yeah. And honestly, if you think about the implications of that, you become a better spouse, you become a better parent, you become a better coworker and friend. I want to just encourage, and we've said this, I think already that everyone is walking in afraid to be known. So you are not the only one. As you're walking in, like, there are the extroverted people who literally use their extroversion to hide who they really are because they're afraid of being fully known. And so if you can understand that everyone's walking in with that fear and that level of brokenness, wherever that's at, you're going to realize you're not alone and then even understand that as you've been in group. I've been. I think I'm in year seven of recovery, and I've been in, I think, five or six groups now, and it's still uncomfortable. Even as an extrovert, it's still uncomfortable to be vulnerable. Like, just had group this morning. It's not fun to share the stuff that I, like, thought about or the emotional up and down that I had over the last week. But it is a muscle that gets developed over time. And so understand that this is a terrible analogy, but, like, think of your entire group walking in, and they're all emotionally very weak, and they've never lifted any emotional muscles. And they're all walking in, and it's like your first gym class in high school, and you've never lifted weights in your entire life. You're all gonna do this together by the end. You're gonna, you know, have some bigger muscles and you'll have some maybe comfortability in sharing more. But just understand you're not alone as you're walking into that introvert or not.

I think that's a great illustration, Trevor. It helps us recognize we can grow in our emotional awareness. We can grow in relationships. Like, just because we've been a certain way for many years in our life doesn't mean we're stuck in that. And back to your point, Dan, it doesn't mean our introversion is bad or that our lack of desire for friends is bad. There may be some personality wiring there. That's okay. But to have that mindset, to say I have capacity to work on things and grow in them, my emotional awareness, vulnerability, engaging with other people. And I would encourage that to be the goal as we go into group. So, Dan, here's a really Important question. Kind of flipping it around a little bit. What if I'm the leader and I'm the introvert or I'm being asked to consider leadership, but I'm an introvert. And for a lot of people, there is kind of a stereotype of, well, leaders have to be gregarious, outspoken extroverts. So what would you say to that introvert about how their leadership style or how they can lead even as an introvert and not see that as a negative thing?

Yeah. And we have thrown around two words when we think about leadership of group, and that's leader and facilitator. And I think facilitator is a much better definition of what we do in group because it isn't about leading someone to health. That is their journey to lead themselves to health. We facilitate through, through some program or material to get that person. So oftentimes as an introvert and probably an extrovert, our goal is to help them get somewhere. I'm responsible for your growth, your healing, and that's, that's just not the way this works. So if you can lead from transparency and not performance, that's all that's being asked of you. And that can look very, very deceiving when as a facilitator or leader, we focus on, here's where you can get. Look at, look at me. I've been in, in group for three years and I used to do this, but now I don't, which is great. There's, there's hope in that. But if it's not balanced out with. And today I thought, you know, that my co worker should get sick and not come in for a week because then I wouldn't have to see them, you know, and just be honest with, with where you're at and kind of why. And I'm not looking at you particular in that sickness thing.

Sure. But, but, but anyway, it feels like a terrible season.

I know. Yeah.

Wish sickness on anyone.

You just said there was a terrible analogy. That was, that's a terrible analogy.

It hurt. So I don't know, maybe it was.

Good, but transparency is the goal. I mean, I, I, the, the times when people say, oh, thank you is when I've said, and you know, this is where I'm at, or this is what happened to me. And I didn't follow it up with. But it all turned out for good. It was all worked out in a neat little bow because that's when people go, oh, okay. Yeah, I can identify with that. And I think again, going back to the Thing, it's just lead by transparency, not performance, man.

And this is something that I wish I was better at. I think introverts listen very, very, very well and pay attention. Maybe even more so than an extrovert is capable of at times. You know, it's hard to listen when you're talking. You know, I feel like I heard that growing up anybody else out there, but I think that because of that, to view your leadership or even your, your type in that sense of being an introvert as like a superpower or as a gift that you have to offer to the group, that if you listen really well and maybe you're not someone who overshares, you might have some really, really good insight. And honestly, my introverted friends tend to have really, really good insight. And when you, like when you. It's almost like an extrovert. And I'm aware that I'm talking around in circles as I get to this point, but will talk around until they find it where an introvert might just say something and it's just, boom, there it is. Like, there's the point. Powerful moment that happens. And I feel like we as leaders, if you're introverted, like view that as a gift and view that as something you can offer the group because a lot of people can benefit from it.

Yeah.

I would say just because you've seen another style that may be a challenge for you. If you've been with a very extroverted, extroverted leader, that message of like, well, I'm not like, so and so, I'm not like them. And I just want you to hear, that's okay. God uses and blesses and ordains many different styles. And so if you are more of a quiet, consistent, you know, pointed leader who doesn't say a lot, that can really be okay. God can use that. And like you said, Dan, the primary function of that leader is to lead by example, to lead with their story, to lead with vulnerability, and not to lead with some kind of performance or expertise or long drawn out example. Before group starts more just, hey, great to be here. Let's get going. Dan, would you like to start us off? And you can do it in a very simple way that God uses. So don't compare maybe what you've seen in the past or what you think a leader ought to do with yourself. Be who you are and really believe that God will use and bless that.

Well, I really do hope that if you are introverted and you're listening to this or you're watching this, that you Feel seen and heard, that you do have a place in group and it is a safe place for you. So as we wrap up, what are some final encouragements we would give to those introverts? Maybe they're in group already. Maybe they're considering group. Maybe they're even considering leading group for the first time. What are some encouragements we give to people?

I would say, first off, that group isn't easy for anyone. There's no style that says, you know, if you're an extrovert, group is much easier than you as the introvert.

It's gonna take a lot longer actually, if you're an extrovert, I'm just telling you.

Okay, sounds good. So just be aware that just because your style is different in the way you present in group or with friends or with your. Your members, it doesn't mean that they're breezing through or all struggling. Because really, group is about challenging our belief system and understanding what got us there. And that's difficult for everyone. And if you can ingrain upon yourself that I am here to be seen as who I am, regardless, that's the goal, and I don't have to do anything beyond that. Just take that next step in the process, the next thing they ask me to do, and do it to the best of my ability and be willing to. To answer the questions as they come. I think you're gonna be fine. Yeah.

I think my final encouragement would be to remember that the outcome of group is not to change you into something you're not. It's not to transform you into someone different. Now, we do hope group is transformative and changing, but it's really about making you who you truly are. It's about coming to who God made you to be. And so I see a group as more of a stripping away of the unhealthy things or a boat that has to have those barnacles chipped off because underneath is this beautiful vessel that's been made to sail. And we're trying to get rid of the stuff that doesn't belong. And I think that's what group is like, whether we're the introvert or the extrovert. It's getting rid of things that have kind of accumulated in our life that are lies about our identity, value or worth. And as we get rid of those, what emerges, this more contented, peaceful picture of this is who I am. And so if you're an introvert, I think that's what you're going to find is you'll actually maybe feel more Comfortability about, well, this is how I'm wired. And that's not a bad thing because I've gotten rid of some lies. I've gotten rid of false ways of dealing with my pain. And so if you can trust that it's not trying to change you into someone different, but really bring you to who God made you to be, I think that that can just give you a lot of courage in the process. So hopefully that imagery will help you move forward and trust that whatever God invites you to deal with, it's for your good. It's to make you more authentic to who you are and not try to force you into being something you're not.

Yeah. I think the only thing I'd say is as an introvert in group, you have a lot to gain and a lot to give. So you've got a lot to gain from being in a community with other people, being known, being seen and working through it. And, you know, I love that imagery of, like, chipping off those barnacles off so we can finally see who the real you is. But then you also have a lot to give that as an extrovert who's been in groups with introverts, you guys have a lot to offer, and I've benefited greatly from that. And so I think that you need to also understand that you being there is about also giving to the people that are around you. So though we don't often hear from introverts, or when we do, it's very pointed and we're thankful for that. They're very, very incredible value. That terrible sentence. You have tons of value to bring to group, and it's just really important. And that's why we did this episode, is because we know that there are introverts out there in group that do struggle with it, that are trying to find their place or their voice or what recovery looks like. And your perspective is very needed, and you are absolutely just as much a part of group as anyone else. And so we hope today through our conversation, that this helps you be referring to feel seen and heard, and that this just amplifies your group experience. So as an introvert, Dan, thank you for joining us and sharing.

So we're done now I can take my nap.

Yeah, that's true. You performed very, very well. Thank you. All right, well, wherever you're at on your journey, pure desire is here to help create a roadmap for your healing. If you or someone you know is impacted by sexual brokenness or betrayal trauma, go to PureDesire.org and let's start the healing journey today. Don't forget to subscribe to the podcast. Each week we out new content to help you on the road to healing and freedom. And lastly, never stop being helpful.