220 - Extroverts In Group

You're listening to the Pure Desire podcast, your safe place to find hope, healing, and freedom from sexual addiction, betrayal, and relationship issues. What's up, people? I'm your host, Trevor Windsor, and you're listening to episode 220 of the Pure Desire podcast. Here joining me as always is my co host, Nick Stumbo, the teacher from Charlie Brown.

Very good. Yes.

Yeah, at first I was like, you were doing a womp, womp, womp, womp. That's what I thought you were doing. But no.

Oh, that, yeah. That would have been a little more harmonic or a little more tuned to it, right?

That's true. Yeah. I'm excited about this connection.

Have you ever heard why in Charlie Brown you never can tell what the teacher is saying?

No.

Yeah, me neither. Okay. No, actually, you can't do that to me. You got my. I think at one. At one point I remember hearing it and it was actually kind of like a deep something, you know, just related to that. Charlie Brown is about kids worlds, and if you notice, like, there's no adults in it. And so I think it was something about they didn't want there to be an adult voice because they wanted it to be the world through the eyes of kids. So. And maybe it's through the eyes of kids. That's what teachers and we as parents and coaches sound like. We're just wah, wah, wah, wah, wah.

Probably that would explain a lot for parents.

Some of our listeners probably know the real answer and they can let us know.

Send it in podcasturedesire.org okay, so today we don't normally have her in office with us, but we had Ashley Jamison, our online groups coordinator for women, or not online. Excuse me, our groups coordinator for women, Ashley Jamison in office, to talk about what she's really good at. Extroverts in group.

Yeah. So part two from introverts in group and now extroverts just helping all of us kind of recognize we do bring a demeanor into group. And it's not good or bad. It just presents different challenges either way. And I think for some of us sitting in group, an extrovert can sound a little, little bit like the Charlie Brown teacher. They just go on and on and wah, wah, wah. Like they're telling me about their third grade teacher and how they felt abused. And I've heard this story eight times. So I think what we're trying to balance is the strength that an extrovert can bring. And for, you know, those of us that were sitting in the room that recognize our extroversion but also the challenges that sometimes we can overdo it and dominate a group and. And to recognize sometimes that does detract from what others need to get out of group. So I thought it was a really kind of fun and honest conversation as we took a look into our own lives and stories, both as group members and leaders. And hopefully it will be helpful to those that both those that can identify as extroverts and those that have to deal with them.

Yeah. Does this mean. Because there is a thing called Ambivert which is like a mixture of the two. Do we have to do a third episode? Maybe we'll do a follow up episode down the road once we've done some reading on that. Either way, this definitely is a good episode for both extroverts and introverts to listen to for sure. But a few things before we get going. Subscribe to the podcast. We're on all the major platforms and I realize I haven't asked you to do this in a while, but would you please go onto whatever podcast platform you listen and give us a review? Would you rate the podcast and review it? It absolutely helps other people find the podcast and it means a lot to us. We love reading those messages. Also, follow us on social mediauredesirepdmi. You can also get this full episode on YouTube and then Nick. We don't talk about this all the time, but it is a huge part of our ministry. Grown and grown and grown over the last probably 18 months. Now is actually it's two years probably, I think is where we're at now. But we offer Pure Desire online groups.

Yeah, we just recognize that a group experience is really pivotal, we feel, to everyone's healing journey. And for many, many people, if they go to find a Pure Desire group near them or at their church, there isn't one. Now in many places there is. And we're thankful for that. And for those of you that have helped start groups, launch groups, run groups in your local church, thank you. Thank you. Because that really is the heart. And the vision of Pure Desire is that people can find healing in their local church with people that they do life with. I think there's something powerful about that. But for a lot of us, our closest group might be 2, 3, 4 hours away or further. And so it's just not realistic. And if we have to wait around till a group starts, if we're the one in need of healing, it could be waiting a while. And so online groups really have become that safe place that people can go through a group Experience with a trained and vetted Pure Desire leader who's going to follow the group guidelines. Hopefully, the kind of things we talk about on here, they've been trained in. And it's really a consistent group experience that can walk you through that journey and introduce you to people from around the country that are all starting at the same point with you. So that's the unique thing about the group is if you've ever looked on our group's map or the website, you might feel like, well, I didn't see any groups. Well, it's because a group goes up, it has seven seats, and when the seats get filled, the group goes off the website. Because these are not just revolving doors or come when you want. Like, once you start with your group, that's going to be your group for the next eight to 10 months. And what we just keep hearing is how even though people are separated by time zones and states and even countries, they really bond because they go through this experience together. And I think because the online groups require us, there's a cost to it to help pay the leader and cover the overhead for Pure Desire, that sort of thing. People are really invested. No one's just getting a free ride. So the group members really invest well. And it's proven to be just a really powerful environment for people needing a group experience.

And you can do either monthly payments or you can pay all up front with one payment. And if you want to check out more on online groups, go to PureDesire.org groups. All right, here is our conversation with Ashley Jamison on Extroverts and Pure Desire groups. Ashley Jamison, welcome back.

I would say more.

Hi, Ashley.

I thought being live and in person, it would be less awkward, but it wasn't. You guys were just as good as ever.

I don't understand why you had me on this extroverted podcast.

Yes, right. And it's nice that we have you in person. We very rarely have you in person.

Feels good to be here in person.

Just something recently happened in your life that's causing you to stay home more. Your husband broke his.

He was selfish and broke his leg playing baseball.

Then he needed surgery. John, man, that's why you slide in head first. Every coach slide in head first.

I'm not a good caregiver. He wants a new nurse.

Well, either way, we're excited to have you.

So think of that next time before you break your leg and need surgery.

Seriously. Right. So. So.

And you better not get old.

Don't ever play baseball again. You're old okay, so super mean. Anyways, as clearly an extrovert and you are a groups expert, it only makes sense to have you on to talk about extroverts in pure desire groups. How's that make you feel?

Well, when you said extrovert and expert, I was thinking like ex gro. Per.

Weird. Okay, this is a lot. Justin, good luck with this episode. Okay, let's just jump into the questions. Let's say we are extroverted. What are some things that we need to be aware of as we're joining, maybe for the first time, a pure desire group.

Things we need to be aware of, that the groups operate best with structure and guidelines. So this is not going to be just a coffee talk group where we just share, but that there's going to be a format. And even for us extroverts, it's going to be so good for us to just stick to the process and follow the format. So I guess having that expectation because going in would be that there's going to be some structure and rhythm to follow. It's not going to be just talking.

Yeah, yeah.

I was thinking about not all extroverts, but I think a lot of us tend to be pretty good at. We're quick on our feet. We can shoot from the hip. We can remember stories and tell them well and maybe get the room engaged and laughing. And we may kind of go in ready to lean on those strengths. Especially in a group that, let's be honest, sooner or later we're probably going to feel uncomfortable. We're not in love with the idea that we have to be there, especially if we're dealing with our own unwanted behavior or betrayal, for that matter. So the fact that we don't really like being there may cause us to want to kick into whether we're just a good talker or the funny person or great storyteller. And as Ashley said, there really is structure. We're sharing work that we've done, we're processing answers we've already written. And so we've got to be willing to reel back maybe some of our. What we think of as a strength that, oh, I don't really need to do my work because I can just remember it all or I. I'll just say it on the spot. Well, you may be able to, but the truth is you're not going to the level you need to and you're not gonna give your brain some of the help it needs to really change over time. If you're just on the spot making up your answers yeah.

And I mean, like, I'm a verbal processor, and I've had to learn that group is not the time to verbally process. My process needs to take place before group, where I'm actually doing the work. And then when I get into the group setting and share my answers, then dialogue, you know, can happen that way. But again, like, it's not a come and share and tell everything about your week type of group, which is really hard. Cause it feels like that's. It feels that's our comfort. That's where we, like, feel most at home or most comfortable, that we're just kind of open lane to share whatever we want. But that structure, we're gonna run up against that structure that this group needs.

Yeah. And I mean, for extroverts, that is a lot of times how they heal and get over things as they process it. But like, you're saying, I wrote that down. Distill it down, write it all out before group, chat it up with your friends, call your group members outside, you know, outside a group. And then group is where you give the distilled answer. That is fair to everyone.

Yeah.

Yeah. So if we are an extrovert who's doing a pure desire group, what are some tips for that person to keep in mind during a pure desire group meeting?

Well, like I just said, write all your stuff out and process it during the week. And then if you need to distill your answer down. So if you're telling a story and you want to write 35 pages, go for it, but then get it down to three pages, three minutes for the group time. If you're doing your longer stories or just whatever the answer is, stick to reading your answers. Work on writing it down throughout the week. Not shooting from the hip, reading your answers, and then just recognizing maybe there might be some awkward silence and you don't have to fill it. And that's okay. I remember me having to walk myself through that. Like, I don't have to fill the space. Even as a leader, I don't have to fill that space. So, yeah, it actually felt good to be trained in that way a little bit, to be able to, you know.

Totally. And I'll just say as an extrovert, that sometimes I feel the responsibility, even if I'm not leading the group, to, like, carry the conversation or push it forward. And oftentimes, and we talked about it last week in our introverts episode, that sometimes that space is needed for an introvert to even start to share. And so, like, if you feel like you have to carry everything forward. You're going to run over people and not allow the group to experience not only what this introvert is sharing, but, like, I feel like there's almost this group healing that takes place when everyone gets to share. And so I think you're gonna miss out on that too if you feel like you have to carry every conversation.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think as an extrovert, maybe your ability to think quickly on your feet or always be ready to talk and be comfortable with that, in some ways that can be a gift because you're willing to just, you know, dive in. Like, well, I'll go. So don't minimize that because it is an awkward conversation. And if you're more of the extrovert who's comfortable just going for it, that's great. On the other hand, I think we should be conscientious of, am I the first person every single time?

All the time?

Like, every time the leader says, well, who'd like to go? And I'm just diving in and I'm always answering, you know, sometimes give space. Like Trevor was saying to just wait and see if someone else might dive in. I've even got to the point sometimes I will be counting to 10 in my head because I'm like, okay, if I get to 10, that's good. And no one has said anything, I'll go, but I'm gonna. I just did the first three questions and now it's someone else's turn. The other thing that came to mind for me as a tip in group, we kind of talked about this in the introvert episode, that sometimes the extroverts also tend to be more prone to being performance based or performance oriented and living in a way where the way I make friends is through performing well by impressing them, having skills, making them laugh. And if that's what I'm looking for in group is I'm going to make friendship. By performing well. It could actually undermine our group experience because the truth is people need to be able to speak hard truth to us. We need to be able to share maybe hard truth or things that we don't feel great about or that even been sources of shame in our life. And if our goal going into the group is like, I'm going to impress everyone and make more friends, we're probably going to be guarded or not open up to the things that we really need to. So I think we just have to manage that part of us that wants everyone to like me and instead be like, no, I'm I'm here to get better and to heal, and so whatever that means, how they react, the way I share, just having that willingness. And then I think what we find on the. Maybe the back end of group or as we get going a while, is a new way of friendship, that these are people you can get incredibly close to, but it won't be because you perform so it'll be because they actually know you and they choose to like you and be your friend, which can be very, very powerful.

Yeah, we talked about that last week, too. That introverts, that fear of coming in to group, like, the fear of all these people have to become, like, my best friends in your closest community. That's not true. Right. And I think the same thing applies to extroverts. Like, if you walk out of your group experience and not all of them are your best friend, that's okay. Like, you don't. You're not coming to make friends. You're coming to build community and intimate and real community. But again, it doesn't have to be something where you walk out and it's just like, I know you. I know your Social Security number. I know the name of your kids. I know where you live. Like, you don't need to know all that information in order for a group experience to be helpful. So I think that just because I know, for me, I can walk into a room and just feel like I have to befriend everyone. And sometimes it's an internal pressure I put on myself that can get in my own way. So I think that we need to just identify that. That it's okay if not everyone's your best friend after.

You really don't need to know any of your friends Social Security numbers ever. So I'd appreciate if you'd stop asking.

Oh, okay.

Well, speaking of friends, you know, with Heather on staff here, who's one of my best friends, when we go into meetings, she's so opposite of me. And so when we go to meetings, I'm like, what's your approach going to be? I'm just going to sit and listen. And I'm like, I'm gonna try that. I'm trying to sit and listen. And then I'm like, sit, listen, sit and listen. But I was like, it actually feels good.

Here we go. Yeah.

Yeah, it actually feels good to try to, like, practice that and, like, observe her, how she processes, and she, like, soaks it all in. I process out loud. And it's kind of nice to pair yourself with people that are not exactly like you too. So, yeah, it's good to learn from each other.

So how do we encourage extroverts to listen? Which is not something that comes naturally, I think, for a lot of us, or to not overshare, but still make them feel heard and valued and as a part of the group.

When I read this question, you know what I thought of when we were at the PSAP training and we were having that conversation on the 10 minute break and I was like. And then I left feeling like I just talked over him, I interrupted him. And it wasn't until like a month later, coming back to the next one, like, I'm sorry for talking over you. And I realized, I realized it was because it was like that 10 minute time that we had a conversation and then nothing for a month. And so that to me applies to group where if you want to talk to these people in your group, if you want to share, then share the answer, but then maybe make other opportunities outside of group to just have a conversation. Because then you don't feel like I need to share all this with them. That you're getting to share pieces throughout the week. So whether that's getting together, if your group's comfortable with that, or phone calls during the week, I think can kind of vent some of that, you know, desire to share so much. And then really, I mean, this is like so obvious. Try to be aware if you're thinking about what you're gonna say or if you're listening to the words coming out of their mouth. Because we can connect so many dots by hearing other people's stories and other people's experiences. It's actually part of what makes the group so valuable. And so listening to their story and asking yourself, is there any piece of that story I identify with and what am I feeling when I'm listening to their story? Am I feeling any emotions? Am I feeling any empathy? So I think those are good tips.

When I'm sharing like that and someone, there's two ways it does two things. When someone is listening to what I'm sharing and almost kind of cuts me off, but asks me a pointed question. Cause sometimes I can kind of get everyone else who listens to this knows I can kind of get off on tangents. But what it does is it helps me, like, know, okay, that person's listening to me because they're asking a question that's pertinent to it, but then also can redirect me back in the right direction. Like if I started on a story about something and I get off course, someone asking like, well, how is that tied to your. The answer to the last question? And it's like, oh, thanks. Okay, here we go. So I think that that's one way is using questions to kind of help direct some of those people. Because we don't want to like tamp down or like hinder extroverts from being able to share in group. But we do want it to be more focused and structured and stay on point for the benefit of the entire group getting to share and have that conversation. But I think that that has been one way just for me that's been really helpful. People just ask pointed questions to help redirect me.

Well, and it's like, what I mean, like what you're saying about extroverts. Sometimes it's a gift that you're an extrovert. Like, you know, Rodney shared at the summit this weekend of Joe, like, oh, Joe doesn't know we don't talk about sex in church because, you know, when he was, you know, well, what are we doing about this whole sex topic? And so extroverts can tend to be okay with that shock value. And then the introverts can say, oh, wow, I resonate with that piece. Or that happened to me too. And I've always been too afraid to share it. So it is definitely a gift. Just like, you know, we all have.

You know, I've had groups with multiple extroverts in them, many of us that are very comfortable talking, and those are the groups. I find it can be really helpful to have a timer, particularly maybe for the group check in or the time at the end to really say, hey, we're taking 40 minutes for our check in. There's six of us. That means no one gets more than, you know, six and a half minutes. And that can help if you maybe have one or two introverts who do feel like, well, you know, so and so is going to talk for 15 minutes and I'll talk for two. And that's how it happens every week. That can get very tiresome to someone that just doesn't use a lot of words. They have to listen week in to week out that someone else just takes up all the rest of the time where the introverts might be feeling like, you know, we could end group early if we didn't take so much time on your check in. So I think just having that comfort of, hey, you get five minutes and fill up the whole five minutes if you want, and we're listening. But then the next person knowing I'm going to get the same five minutes. The other thing I think that can help with extroverts because a lot of us are kind of verbally processing, even if it's what we wrote or our faster scale, we're just trying to get a lot of it out. I think a helpful way to help an extrovert feel heard and listened to is to try to either point out something you really appreciated about what they shared. Like, you know, a minute ago when you said this, that part really stood out to me. I think that's helpful. Or to kind of summarize, like what I hear you saying is this because sometimes the extrovert is like trying to figure that out. It's like, oh yeah, I think that is it. Seriously, that makes a lot of sense and it's helping them in their processing. So just looking to kind of take what maybe sometimes they share a lot to summarize and go, that was really helpful. Or I thought this was really a clear thing that you just shared.

I think that's such good advice because John being an introvert and me being an extrovert, even, I'll sometimes be like way misfiring in my brain and I'll say, I'm going to give you rapid fire information with the intention of you helping me.

That's right.

Figure out what I'm thinking. And he just like pulls out one piece and then he's like, done, we're done. Set it down. But just to be able to recognize that about, you know, yourself too.

Yeah, it's good.

So sometimes extroverts can be notorious for advice giving. Please, none of my former group members write in because I already know I.

Have no idea what you're talking about.

So how do we help the extrovert avoid being the advice giver? Or how could we work on this ourselves if this is one of our issues?

Yeah, this is definitely something I'm recovering from. Recovering from. Well, one simple. I just try to change my language from you should to a good question asking like, well, what do you need to help you? What do you think would help? What would be a good tangible goal that you can reach? And um. And so yeah, good question asking and just allowing time for listening because not always is somebody looking for advice. And I know for us who have led group over and over and over, we see the whole picture of everything that Pure Desire offers. And it could be tempting to be like, and then do this and do this and you should read this book and listen to this podcast and if you're anything like me right now, I'm on information overload from podcasts and social media and everything that's available out there. So much so when somebody's coming into group, just let them, just let them be part of the process because it worked for us. And even though that we have so much information to give them, just allow them to absorb the little nuggets of truth for that week and apply it and then move on. I don't even know if that was the question. See, bring me back. What was the question?

No, I think, I think for me, one thing that has worked has been asking once I'm done sharing, to ask clarifying questions of those who are listening to me. Does that make sense or what do you guys see in that? And it's invitation to get feedback from other people, which I think can help me connect dots, but also invites me to work on listening. If I'm asking you a question, I should probably listen to your response. And so I think that in some ways that could be helpful. But man, I think it's just going to depend on group by group and person by person. But this is a great time to have conversations with extroverts outside of group. Like, hey, I want to take you back to the group guidelines. Here's something that we've talked about. I noticed over the last couple weeks there've been some advice giving and here are some things I would try instead of that. Not like, hey, you are a really crappy group member this week. You should do better. Like I think kind of offering some help there. But then Nick, I've heard you talk about it a lot on the podcast and otherwise that that's why we have the group guidelines and go over them as a group together. Like, remember, this is not where we give advice to each other and we're doing recovery work for the other person. This is where we're all on our own journey and let's work on non advice giving. And that way you're not just singling out the extroverting group, you're making it something that's group wide.

Yeah, I think when we find ourselves while they're sharing or giving their answers, we've already formulated, oh, here's a story they need to hear or here's a great quote I've come across or I need to teach them this tool. Like if we find ourselves doing that, because let's be honest, a lot of us as extroverts are, we're thinking ahead in the conversation. It's like, oh, I already know what to tell them. And if we feel that happening, it's like, no, stop, just listen. And I think with that, it's really giving ourselves kind of a ground rule that when they're done sharing, I don't get to share something to add to it. I instead have to compliment them. Like, thank you for sharing. That seemed really personal. That seemed real. And stop there. Or like you said, Ashley, maybe compliment them and then go to a question. Because if I have to do those two things first, I'm going to gain much greater discernment. If it might be appropriate to say, would you mind if I shared a story from my life? Or would it be okay if I gave an example of how this helped me? If I've already thanked them for sharing and asked them a question back, I think many times I've had that situation happen where I realize, you know, the advice I thought I was going to give them as I listened better actually isn't really what they needed or they really weren't ready for. It would have been too soon or too much. And so I think those are just some little things that can help.

Yeah. And I know for me, as an extrovert who overshares and interrupts and advice gives, it was very helpful for my husband to point out, I don't like when you constantly suggest how I should do things, especially when I just gave you the idea and then you flipped it around and gave me a better suggestion or you interrupted me. And so I think it's okay for somebody who feels trampled over by an extrovert, if that's happening, to say, hey, can you let me finish my story? Or can. Can you, you know, let me finish my sentence? I think that that's okay because sometimes extroverts need that, as long as it's in a polite way and, of course, the guidelines.

But we could pull out our internal family systems trainings from Jenna Reamersman and be like, you know, part of me knows that you're really trying to help me, but another part of me wants to kick you in the shins because you keep telling me what to do.

As you say, it's just a part.

Of me, but just a part.

As you guys were talking, I thought a nice practice. Maybe this is just an idea that came to me that maybe you put yourself on, like, a limit of the number of comments that you make after someone shares per group. So maybe you're.

Maybe you say you have a little tally. Shoot. I've already used 3 comments. I only get one more Right.

But honestly, that might be a really good exercise to do. Like I'm only going to say four comments after someone shares today and I'm going to pick my spot.

I've done that.

There you go. Good for you.

No, I really have. Like, like what you're saying with not commenting after. I mean, I really. There are these little practices and what's.

Interesting too, and this is something that I've had to learn through practices like that is that you'll hear some people say things in that space that you're not filling with your extroversion and wanting to do all that stuff, you're going to find those spaces or when someone else says something that's like extremely meaningful and profound, it's just like, oh my gosh, if I would have said something, I would have never heard that. You know, and that's not that that happens every single time. But I'm telling you, like, maybe I'm guessing like three to five times in a group, like over the 10 month group you're gonna have a moment like that we're just like, okay, like this is why I don't share. This is why I'm on the four count.

You know what I mean?

It's just so helpful because you're not always right.

That's right.

Except I mean I am.

Yeah, there it is. There it is. Okay, so another thing that extroverts naturally are very good at is over talking. When they share, they share and they share and they share and they share and then they stop and then they share and they have to like, they just, they have to do it. So how do we address extroverts who are taking over group by that over talking?

Okay, when I look back on some of my earlier.

How do we handle you as a group member, Ashley?

When I look back on some of my earlier like talks and speaking events, I kind of feel embarrassed because I feel like I have learned how to get more concise and like I'll tell myself less words, clearer point. Less words, clearer point. And one of the things that I really appreciate and it can be super scary, I've seen it done twice in a very good way. Heather and I were in the appsats training, the partner trauma training and there was 30 women on there and they said, we are here for training. We know all of us were brought here by a story. All of us have experience, all of us are here for a reason. But that's not what this is for, this is for training. And I thought that was really good clarification. Up front. And then I saw it in play. At one point somebody started kind of going off and I can't remember if it was Carol or Carol. And you know, she was like, okay, thank you. But this is not the platform for that. We are here for training, so we're going to move on. And I appreciate you and I value your story, but she just very like graciously cut her off and reminded her. And what it did for me was, I mean, I'm sure there's always a level of embarrassment when you get course corrected. But we were there for training. We've heard tons of stories. We love hearing people's stories, but that's not what we were there for. And I appreciated that and I thought that was an amazing example.

Yeah, I've tried to do things as a group leader to be proactive. I mean, I think if you've led a group before or even if you just look at the lesson the day before, you can tell the sections where someone, you're getting into your 10 worst moments or sharing a story from your past. And it's like, oh, those that are talkative, they could just go off here. And so I'll even say, hey, I know all of us could take the next hour and share our story here, but we only have, you know, 40 minutes for the whole group to share all of this. So I need you to stick to what you wrote and so to try to kind of preemptively do that or, you know, we're getting towards the end of our time. And I'll say, you know, we've only got a half an hour left and we're trying to finish this lesson. So we've got to really stick to what we wrote. We've got to be concise with our answers so that everybody gets equal time. And kind of emphasizing that everybody gets equal time. Because I think most people in group really are good hearted and want the group to have a good experience. And so if you can emphasize, not that they're the problem, to say like, so those of you that share so much, would you stop? But to just say we want to give everyone equal time, that ahead of time can help. And then if someone does start to kind of go off the rails, it's like, hey, remember, we're trying to give everyone equal time. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. So you've already kind of prepped them for the interruption if you need to make it?

Yes. Yep. Yeah. Because then I feel like then they us, we me doesn't feel we found it.

Okay.

Doesn't Feel like cut off and devalued. But it's like, oh, I'm sorry, I broke the rules. Yeah, I mean, that happened like, you know, sometimes as my supervisor, you might say, hey, didn't we talk about that? You know, I don't. Did you let me know that? And then I'm like, oh, yeah, that's a rule. I broke it. You know, So I think it's good for that. I think that leads into the next.

Question real quick, like, before we get to that one. I think for me, like, no extrovert is just going to. I mean, maybe I just haven't met them yet, but like, go, go, go, go, go. And never take a breath. And so sometimes what I've tried or seen other people do really well is they'll jump in with a redirection kind of question, or let's say an extrovert kind of takes over the conversation. It's like, well, actually, Jim was sharing something. Why don't you go back to that? Like, what about that? And you kind of press into that. And for me, as an extrovert, I don't ever feel devalued in that moment. Cause it's like, oh, yeah, that's right. Jim was sharing my bad, you know, kind of thing. And so I think that you can do that and be timely. And I would just say, like, pay attention to how like your face is when you're talking to an extrovert or you're interrupting. Like if an introvert starts. And I wish, if you guys are watching this, pay attention. But like, if an extrovert starts to share again and you just like, roll your eyes and you're just like, here we go. You know, like, as an extrovert, I'm paying attention to that. You know what I mean? And sometimes I get better at don't.

Roll your eyes at me.

Ye. And you keep on. You think I'm oversharing now, right? Like, but I think that we need to. And it's funny, the thing that I feel like it's closely tied to in that sense is like when someone shares about a same sex experience in group, your reaction to that is very, very important. And a lot of this, a lot of that applies to all of group. How someone, when someone shares how you respond is very, very important. That if you make kind of a weird face or it makes you uncomfortable and it's obvious, like that communicates something to someone. So I think that you need to pay attention to, like, if you're listening and you're trying to Be compassionate, Tell your face.

And also look at the faces of the group members who are listening to the 15 minute answer when they're like.

Save me, help us.

You could do the Christian thing and be like, okay, let's pray about that. Shut it down.

I will be honest to say, as a group leader, there are times someone has gotten into over sharing and I don't feel like I'm very good at interrupting. And it can feel like it's like they're not just shooting the breeze, like they're sharing something from their life or their history, and I've chosen to let it go. And then after the group or during a phone call that week, say, hey, by the way, you know, you didn't write, I can tell you didn't write most of that, but you shared it. And what you shared was awesome. It was great. But you really took a lot more time than we should have for group. So if you're that kind of a leader, that. And I would just say when it comes to interrupting, I tend to be a little on the timid side. You know, Ted Roberts, I think that's one of God's spiritual gifts, like his ability. When someone's asking a question, the way that Ted can go, what's your question, sir? And you feel like he loves you when he's doing it. I feel like I'm the opposite. Like I'm trying to be gracious, but however I interrupt people, I must come across as a jerk. Because when I've attempted like to do that, I just feel like I lose the room or the, the person's demeanor. I'm like, oh, I did it poorly. So for those reasons, like sometimes if the moment doesn't seem right or I'm concerned if the person will really take it the wrong way, I'll kind of chalk it up as like, this is my bad as a leader because I didn't. And it's almost always times that I didn't preempt it and say, hey, I know we could all share our whole story, but we need to keep it short. So I'm kind of, I'll internally be beating myself up like, oh, this is my fault. And so rather than interrupt them and make them feel bad, I'll address it later. So is that always best? I don't know. But I'll just say, as a leader.

I think that's a good strategy.

Yeah, I think that you're also going to bat for the other group members. And so I think that that will also communicate a lot, that if you're will call out this extrovert here and you're not being a jerk. Like, it's just something like, hey, let's stay on task here. We're trying to get through group. And you do that in that moment. It might be uncomfortable, but I would just say if there are other people sitting in group that might just be like, thanks, Nick. I appreciate that. They may not say that in the moment, but that's what they're thinking. Like, yeah, he's fighting for my time too, because my sharing is valuable. So feel it out. Because obviously if it's your first group and you've got an extrovert who's sharing some of his stuff for the first time, it's probably not a good idea to punch him in the mouth and just expect him to respond well. But I think if you feel it out, it could be done well.

Yeah.

Yeah. And we've all been part of those groups that are ran really well and beautifully and structured. And it just feels very, like, predictable. And I feel like that is something a lot of times people in this group need because their life is chaotic. Maybe it's addiction, maybe it's betrayal. And so going to something that's very predictable, I think is benefit for them. Yeah, yeah. And then just setting the tone. I mean, you know, my aunt's a lawyer, so if I'm even like, hey. So she's like, what's your question? Get to the point, Ashley. And I'm just like. So now when I. I go, I'm like, John's birthday, February 15th. Wanna come? Like, if you need more information, she'll ask for it. And so. But I. That's how I talk to her because she set the tone. So as a group leader, like, what you're saying is like, set them up. Well, I notice that too, on the weeks I don't set them up well is usually when things get lazy and sloppy. So set the tone.

And it's amazing how often, like if you have a group of seven, eight people and it's one of those weeks where several miss and you're like, oh, there's only four of us. We'll probably get through the lesson quick. Do you ever.

No.

People fill the time if you let them. So it's just human nature. And I think that can help us to realize they are filling up the time because I'm giving it to them. And if I will keep that time reeled in and say, you've got four minutes, go. Usually they'll respect it. So we've given A couple of ideas if we're the leader, like, how to manage extroverts in our group. But what if the primary extrovert in the group is us? How do we lead effectively and avoid running over or out talking those group members that might be introverted or might just be struggling to get comfortable in the group, even if they're an extrovert? Yeah.

You get four chances.

There it is.

Get your tickets out? No, but I do think keeping all the things we've said in mind is good. But for me, as an extrovert who's been through the process, the biggest thing I can remember just going through those early stages is that they need that. They need that group. They need to bond with each other. They need to share their answers and be able to process and articulate what they're feeling. And so as a leader, if we're taking up time, just. It's kind of sad because we've. We have our people. We've been through the process. We've been, you know, we've been through the healing journey, and we literally are taking time away from these people that need it. So just going back to those. Those things, if you need to set a timer, because you are the one going off, I say be humble. Every time I do a conference, a podcast, a blog, anything, I'm reminded about the guidelines. And I go back and I say, I've gotten kind of off. I've been chatty. You know, it's. It's been a good week for me, and we've been talking a lot. So we're gonna go back to the guidelines. So just be humble and admit when you've gotten off. It sets the tone that even I can be corrected, even I can correct myself. Use the timer if you need to. Remember that they need this experience. And so there's times where I'll say, you know, my last group, they loved me to share my answers, and there's times where I say, I'm not going to share these answers because this is a bigger lesson. And I want you guys to get out of it what I got out of it. And so I'm going to let you guys have this time.

Yeah.

And I think this is part of the reason we've encouraged leaders to consider going first. If you will model the group guidelines. So when you've been proactive to say, hey, I know this is a question. We could share a whole life story. I need you to stick to what you wrote and then say, and I'll go first. And if I pick up My workbook. And it's clear, I'm reading what I wrote and I'm done in like 30 seconds. Then everyone goes, oh, that's what we're supposed to do. Yes, because if you only give the instructions. And I just saw this at a social gathering I was at where the leader was like, hey, we have a lot of people here, but I want to take 30 seconds. Just give us your name. And it was like three things that was easily given in 30 seconds. But the first person got up and took two minutes to tell some of their story. And because they didn't come back and go, hey, I appreciate that, but we really need to stick to this. And they just let it keep going. And. Well, what did the second person do? Well, they just followed what the first person had done. And so this intro time that was supposed to be 10 minutes was like an hour. And it was like, I learned a lot about leadership there. That the other principle, if you don't go first, you could let someone else go first. And if they follow your guidance or the instructions, you know, thank them. But if they don't go, you know, Joe, that was fantastic. But remember, we're trying to stick to what we wrote. And it sounded like you read what you wrote and gave us two more stories. Oh, yeah, I kind of did. So then reinforcing that boundary. So that's where the person who goes first will set the tone. And if it's you and you'll set the tone correctly, that will help. But that's where I think we have to be careful as the leader, totally. That if I go first and I've just said, we'll stick to what you wrote, but because I'm the leader, add in all this special permission to elaborate, then everyone will too. And I can't really blame them for only following the precedent that I've set.

Very true.

I think two things that I try, I'm working on, I'm in recovery, if you will, over these, is ask more and share less. And so, like when someone is sharing their response and I'm making a connection in my head and I'm like, oh, if I could just tell this, you know, to them, it's going to save their marriage and everything, whatever their life, they're finally going to get saved. It's going to be amazing, whatever. For me, I think of more asking questions. And I have to be careful, too, because if I. I can be very good at asking questions to get to the response that I think they need. And in reality, I need to just Ask open ended questions. I don't just need to be like, are you sure that that's what your wife said to you? Do you think that that's what she meant? You know, like my tone is telling.

You need Ashley's lawyer, family member to be like, you know, objection. Leading the witness.

Exactly right. And so don't, like, don't think of it that you're like the bumper lanes on a bowling lane, trying to get them in the right direction, that you think like, ask open ended questions. And for me, something that I've seen a lot of fruit from is just asking permission if I can share or if I can ask a question. Like, I've noticed something, are you okay if I ask a question here? And most of the time I get a yes to that and it ends up being a profitable conversation. But sometimes if I just barge in, I'm like, well, actually, you know what? I thought about this and this is my story. And here, let me ask you 16 questions. It's like, that doesn't do anything. Like that doesn't help that person. I just ran them over and then claimed I was a good leader, you know, so I think asking permission is super helpful.

Mm. Well, and for the person on the, the sharing end, especially if it is delicate information that you're sharing, I know for me, I don't want to share something and then have this thought that if I share this, then so and so is going to say this. And so and so is going to give me this podcast to listen to. You know, when we leave group like that, there's always something coming in. When I'm in a chaotic situation, I just want to come share. And for the most part, I'm not saying you can't ever do that. But if it's always, it's like, it's exhausting. And I'm pretty sure I did that to John the first four years of our marriage. Sorry, John.

I think another helpful thing we can do as leaders is when we recognize we're doing this to just own it, to be humble and say, I feel like I'm talking too much tonight. Or I keep sharing stories from past groups and that's really not tonight's agenda. I'm sorry, I'm not leading. Well, I'll say I'm not being a very good example. Or sometimes when we're going through the lesson, I might say, I feel like I've talked a lot. Who else has something to share? So I just kind of acknowledge. I feel like I'm hearing my own voice. Who else would like to jump in here? And I think that can encourage the group to see like, oh, he sees it too. He recognizes when he's been talking a lot or maybe over sharing.

I think it's good too. When people say, oh, but we like hearing your advice, then you're like, no, but I'm taking away.

I'm breaking a group guideline.

And then you guys call on people, right?

Like, you'll be like, well, I think that that's helpful. I think we talked about it last week.

Introvert.

Yeah, like we talked about that. So, like in respecting them, if you say like, hey, Dan, do you, do you have anything? And they're like, no. It's like, okay, cool, let's move on. Like, who else, you know? But I think that doing that also creates. I'm sure I'm looking for everyone's involvement here. I'm not just hoping that these three people who share every week will keep sharing.

And that goes back to the group guidelines and expectations that if we've been setting that from week one to say, this is our group, everyone's sharing and you're only going to get something out of it if you're participating and sharing and coming. Ready. We don't have any freeloaders here. No one's just here, you know, sitting in on their weekly meeting, getting better. Because some people have. That's kind of the 12 step model. Like go to your meeting and if you just need to sit and listen, just sit and listen. And there maybe is a time and place for that. But pure desire groups, that's not our structure. So the more you create that everyone needs to share, then it's easier to reinforce. We need to give everyone time. Because I've already created the everyone share kind of atmosphere in the group. Yeah, yeah.

All right, so final encouragements. What would they be for an extrovert about their time? And this could be first time, this could be a second time. This could be maybe. I've been doing groups for a long time. What would you say to an extrovert in their time with the Pure Desire group?

I would say that being bold enough to want to share your story and talk is great. It's a wonderful gift. I mean, I would consider them the best. No, I'm just kidding. The other part is we're all biased. We all come in. And so I know for me, one of my things is I am a researcher. And so I honestly believe that I am the smartest person or I honestly believe that I have the best advice or I've tried the best thing or even, you know, if Justin's telling me about his floors, I'm like, you have to try this thing. I've already done the research today. I've already done the research. And so just to, like, recognize that we can learn so much from people that approach things differently, who maybe have a different response or are quieter. And just to go in saying, I'm going to share, but I'm also going to learn and listen from other people in the group is probably the biggest thing I've learned and grown in the last couple years.

I think what I'd say to extroverts, and I would raise my hand as case study number one that had to learn this. This is a group experience. You can't talk your way out of this. You can't talk your way into being better. You can be disciplined. You can work, you can follow the tools. But I think some of us as extroverts have gotten used to thinking, well, I'll just. We'll just meet and we'll talk it through and we'll fix it. I'll have a conversation with my wife and we'll fix it. It'll get better. I'll talk to them. And. And that's become our method of fixing things. And part of why we're in the group is because if words could fix it, it already would happen. And so if you come in just trying to talk your way into healing, it's not where it's at. It really is in the community. It's in listening. It's in the humility of I don't know what, I don't know. I don't see what I'm missing. And I'm probably not going to figure it out just by continuing to talk and ramble. I need to hear and receive and let people speak into and let their stories matter even. And maybe especially when it's someone, it's like I don't really relate to them. They're different than me. They're an introvert or they're quiet. Those are the people we really need to listen and hear their story. Because I just have seen over and over how God will bring kind of that point of clarity, that light bulb moment. It's like, holy cow, if I hadn't been listening, I would have missed that. And so if we can keep that in mind, I can't talk my way into this solution. I think it'll give us the right posture to be a good group member.

Yeah, I think it was said last episode too. And I want to make the same point toward extroverts that you. But the point of group is not to, like, stop you from being extroverted or somehow. Like, that's a negative. You know, it's like a defect that you have. Like, the point is not to change, but the point is to. For you to become more disciplined in this area. Like, to be able to understand your story requires you to be doing the work before you get to group, listening to what other group members have to say, following the group guidelines, being consistent each week. And so I think that you're going to have a lot of benefit. But the point is not to change. Like, you don't have to come in and be like, oh, okay, this is the group that teaches me how to be more quiet. It's like, bro, I've been in however many groups in seven years, and I'm still loud. Like, and that's okay. But you do grow in your ability to listen and make connections and know your story and press into those deeper layers. And so I think just know that it's not going to have to change you. You don't have to change per se in this area or in your temperament, but there is change involved. Absolutely.

And I know before group, I was not in touch with my feelings. My sister is a deep, number four introvert. Deep. And she would always say, well, how do you feel about that? How are you feeling? Like, oh, gross, stop. Don't talk about my feelings. They're not. They're not accessible. And just talking, talking, talking through that discomfort, it was a way for me to really avoid what I was feeling. So just being quiet gives you time to reflect. Reflect on what you just said, too, and really be able to feel your feelings.

Yep. So extroverts are everywhere. At least. At least that feels that way. Yeah, at least it feels that way because we hear them all of us, all the time. But just. But just because it's the way we are, we still have to keep in mind that going through a group with other people and allowing them to be just as invested and share just as much about their own experience is just as important as our own in our group experience. And we have to balance this out with allowing extroverts to feel valued and heard while also being able to give the introverts time to really open up and start to share. And so extroverts need healing and recovery just as much as introverts do. And Ashley, as an excellent extrovert, thank you for being with us today.

Thank you thank you.

And wherever you're at on your journey, Pure desire is here to help create a roadmap for your healing. If you or someone you know is impacted by sexual brokenness or betrayal trauma, go to PureDesire.org and let's start the healing journey today. Don't forget to subscribe to the podcast. Each week we put out new content to help you on the road to healing and freedom. And lastly, never stop being healthy.