223 - The Enneagram & Recovery Pt. 1 w/ Jeff & Beth McCord

You're listening to the Pure Desire Podcast, your safe place to find hope, healing, and freedom from sexual addiction, betrayal, and relationship issues. What is up, people? I'm your host, Trevor Windsor, and you're listening to episode 223 of the Pure Desire podcast. Here joining me as always is my co host and enneagram3, Nick Stumbo.

Secret agent man. Secret agent man. They've given you a number and taken away your name. That's right.

Gosh. Okay. So I grew up hearing that song, and I don't. Is it from a show? Is it from, like, what?

I'm sure they've used it on a show.

Okay.

It's from an artist. Do you know the artist's name?

I don't.

I didn't. I had to look it up. It was Johnny Rivers.

Johnny Rivers.

That's a great name.

I don't know if he's related to Joan Rivers, but that would be interesting. But Johnny Rivers. Do you know the year? Do you want to guess the year?

Okay, hold on. I'm gonna guess.

I'm gonna say at least the YouTube video that's been viewed almost 12 million times. So I'm assuming this is the original 73. Ooh, not too bad. 1966.

Okay. All right.

Yeah. Wow.

That was. Yeah, I. It's so funny. I know that song. It's just. I know. Whatever. Anyways, anyways, to the topic of today, to the topic at hand, I am just gonna say this. These two episodes are some of my favorite that we've ever done. We had, really. It's an honor and a privilege to have them. It was Jeff and Beth McCord. They lead an organization called you'd Enneagram Coach. They're Enneagram experts and work on integrating spirituality, spiritual formation, transformation, and the Enneagram, that tool. And they came on today to talk about how we can incorporate the Enneagram as a tool with our recovery process.

Yeah. And we're not here to take away your name and give you a number, you know, for those.

Hold on a second. That was excellent. I did not see that coming.

Yeah, really?

Everyone else probably did, but I did not.

Well, I just know for some people, whether it's the Enneagram or a lot of tools, it's like, whoa, whoa. You know, I'm much bigger than a number or the initials ENFJ or, you know, you can't categorize me like that. And I think there's a little part of all of us that feels that way. So I just want to say, like, that's not what we're trying to do. I think the Enneagram, like a lot of the tools out there, is just that it's a tool. It's something to help us maybe see ourselves through a lens that can be helpful, that can help us see why I react the way I do in conflict, why I treat loved ones the way I do, what I tend to gravitate towards when I'm happy and healthy and what I'll gravitate towards when I'm not doing well or when I'm unhealthy. And if we have a tool that can help us see that and create some language around it and provide clarity, then to me that's helpful and it's going to be helpful in our recovery journey. So one of the things I love about this episode and the next one is that's what we do, is we go detailed into, like, the types to say, if this is your type, here's likely an issue that you're going to have in recovery, or here's something that may be more pronounced for you. And one of the things we've said in a lot of ways in podcasts is that encouragement of we need to be willing to be investigators into our own life to ask the question of, like, why do I do what I don't want to do, or why do I react the way I do? And so, again, the Enneagram is just one of those tools that can help us see from a new perspective. And so for our listeners that love the Enneagram, they're already on board. They didn't need this intro. And for our listeners that are ambivalent to it or maybe for negative things or have some hesitancy, that's okay. I think if you'll go into the episodes with just an open heart and mind, that you'll learn a lot. And even if at the end of it, you don't want to embrace the Enneagram and become the Enneagram coaches, that's great. My hope is, is that you'll get a little more clarity, not only on your own journey, but maybe on your spouse's and the things that they deal with. So I really enjoyed it. I think the couple we interviewed, too, they're just so.

They're real, they're them, they're cool.

I think they're really easy to listen to. So you're gonna get a lot out of the McCord's.

Yes. And this episode is not just looking at addiction and an Enneagram number. It's also betrayal as well. So this is not just recovery from addiction, it's also from betrayal, trauma, a few things. Before we get into it. Subscribe to the PODC on all the major platforms. Follow us on social media. These full episodes are gonna be up on YouTube. And also, we just want people to know the seven pillars of freedom is now updated. It's new and it's got a fancy new feature.

Yes, it's exciting because we hear from group members all the time. We get suggestions of, hey, what about this? This question's confusing. Did you know there's a typo here? And we want people to know. We listen and we take those to heart. And the Seven Pillars of Freedom, this updated version includes just a lot of those minor changes. We took a long lesson and divided it into two weeks to make it a little easier. We added information about the podcast. But the biggest new feature is that every single lesson has a video, a training video that you watch before you start the homework that helps you understand the lesson, what to look for and how to complete your homework. So if you're a group leader, we just feel like this is something you need to have every member of your group watching because it's going to answer so many of their questions up front and guys are going to show up to group with big, better homework done because they'll understand the lesson and what they're looking for. So the base content that Ted and Harry and Diane wrote, you know, over the last couple of decades, it's still the same great content that you know and love. We've just added a lot of, what might you say, like packaging around it to make it easier and more engaging for all of us to walk through.

Yeah. The best way I've heard it said already is that we've made seven pillars more user friendly. And if you like Nick Stumbo, I'm just going to tell you right now, you're going to love these trainings because it's you for all 40 videos.

And if you don't, don't tell me. Yeah, because I'm an enneagram3 and still get them.

And still get them, still buy them. But seriously, yes, this is new and updated and it is going to be a much better process for you going through it. And we want to give you that great life changing group experience. So if you want to buy seven pillars and start the recovery journey, just go to PureDesire.org seven-pillars. That's the number seven. Excuse me. Word. Wow.

Word.

The word seven.

Word.

Yes. Seven dash pillars and you'll grab that all right, here is part one of our conversation with Jeff and Beth McCord on the Enneagram and recovery. All right, Jeff and Beth McCord, welcome to the Pure Desire podcast.

Hey, it's great to be here.

Yeah, we're honored to be with you.

This is the first time we're meeting. We're really, really excited to have you guys on. This is just a little bonus for the listeners that we thought we were just getting Jeff, but Beth decided to sit in, which we're not upset about that. So, you guys, that was so fun. You guys, our Enneagram experts, authors, speakers, you guys lead the organization. Your Enneagram coach, Jeff, you've also even pre showed you were telling us you've spent some time as a pastor, so you understand the ministry and the spiritual integration of this. And we just want to explore this personality tool. But today we want to explore it as something that can help in recovery from sexual addiction and betrayal trauma, and really offer this as something that is not a quote unquote only solution, but is something that can be added to the recovery toolkit as you will. So starting off, let's just give our listeners a little bit of background on you guys. And then how did you get introduced to the Enneagram and maybe even a step further, how did you become an expert in the Enneagram? I think is a good question, too.

Yeah, yeah, that's great. So we were introduced to the Enneagram. We were on staff with the Navigators doing campus ministry in the late 90s, and my mentors were in their late 20s, early 30s, starting to experience at some of the turbulence that comes along during that season of life, like marriage or career stuff and trial having children. Well, one of our friends, his therapist, gave him Richard Rohr's book, the Christian Perspective, the Enneagram. Well, I was in the midst of school, so I briefly just kind of skimmed it, but thought it was interesting. But then, you know, I'm in a conservative evangelical school, so I don't talk a lot about going and reading Richard Rohr at the time, but makes sense. Yeah, yeah. And I've benefited tremendously from some of Richard Rohr's writings, but I don't take all of it. But Beth picked it up and devoured it. And what, like, how was it helpful to you?

Yeah, I mean, honestly, I think the book is actually a hard read, but it was the only Enneagram book out there that was from a somewhat Christian perspective, if you will. But for me, I'm a type 9, and I describe type Nines, the peaceful accommodators as having this internal fog. You know, we really don't know ourselves well. We don't know our likes and dislikes. And so we were married 20. I mean, sorry, we are married 26 years, but at the time, six years in. And a lot of our conflicts was. I didn't want conflict. I wanted to just kind of keep everything smooth. And he really wanted to know me, reconcile, restore. But I didn't know how to go there because I didn't know myself. And so this book really put words and brought clarity to what was going on in the inside. Inside of me, but also helped me to understand Jeff better. So our conversations became more clear. They became more productive. Now we are still learning. Even 26 years in, we will always be learning and growing together. But that was the first tool that really gave us clarity and traction towards a healthier marriage.

Well, and how we became experts, it's sort of like the hair club for men. Do you remember those commercials that not only am I the president, I'm also a client. Like, the things that. The reason why we stayed with the Enneagram versus, like, Strength Finders or DISC or Myers Briggs is because of its practical relevance. So in light of some of the history of the Enneagram and the authors at that time, we stayed really quiet about it. And because it was. It was theologically, it was different than our particular theological tradition. And so we kept quiet. But it was still useful for Bethany. Yeah. I remember one argument that we had where I literally asked Beth, are you going to leave me? And she responded, no, stupid, I'm never going to leave you. Why in the hell did you ever think that way?

Right.

Well, I'm an enneagram type 6, and I fear abandonment. And I was able in that moment to give vocabulary to a core message that I have interpreted life through, through my marriage, that the Enneagram gave me language to name. And that's why we became experts, because we continued to use it. And then in a season of crisis, in 2015, Beth's like, I think I want to start a coaching platform from a Christian perspective. The Enneagram, that's history.

Yeah. And not only that, but, you know, Jeff was in seminary when we learned about it, and then has been a pastor since. Except for the last two years, he's worked with us full time. And so all along the way up until about 2016 when we started your Enneagram coach. Every time I was learning about the Enneagram, I was learning from different teachers that I didn't agree with their worldview, their religious view. And so it was tricky. But thankfully he went to a really great seminary for four years. So I would come to him, I'd say, okay, here's what they're teaching, but how would we word this from a biblical, gospel centered approach? And we just did that year after year after year with different things we were learning. So though some people nowadays are learning the Enneagram from us and some of our friends and they're able to pick it up and like get at it real quick, it took a long time for us to really nuance it and make sure that what we're doing is really from a scriptural, Christ centered approach.

Yeah. And we'll get into maybe some more specifics on that to try to help listeners who have heard some, maybe negative feedback or have questions about the source of it. But before we get there, we're kind of operating under assumption that listeners know what the Enneagram is, and maybe not all of them do. And so would you just give kind of your, you know, your elevator version of what is the Enneagram? How does it help? How does it distinct from you already mentioned, you know, strength Finder and Myers Briggs? I think everyone out there's probably done some personality inventory what kind of makes the Enneagram unique in that field of understanding ourselves.

Yeah, I mean, a lot of those personality assessments are amazing. And they have, they're each different for different reasons. Majority of them are telling you your preferences or what you do. The Enneagram, though, gets to why you think feelings and behave in particular ways. So what is your heart motivation? What's going on under the hood? And that's so important, especially as a believer, because God looks at our heart, our heart condition. And the Enneagram is really showing that there are nine valid perspectives in the world. So think about, we're all wearing glasses, and we all think we're wearing glasses that are the same, like clear glasses, and we're seeing the same thing, but in actuality, there are nine different colors. And so Jeff is a six and I'm a nine. So he's wearing orange, I'm wearing purple, you guys are wearing red and green. And so but we, we don't see it right off the bat until we learn how the Enneagram helps us to see. Oh, you're seeing this from a completely different perspective. And that's why when he asked, are you going to leave me? And I'm thinking, no, dummy, you know, like, I would, I mean, like that Was never a thought in my mind. But now that I understand him being a six and one of his core fears is a ban. Abandonment. Of course he's seen the world through that lens. And of course, when I would want to shut down and go away as a 9 who doesn't like conflict, that signaled to him abandonment. That's not what I was intending to do, but it now made so much more sense. So the Enneagram helps us to understand what is going on at a heart level so we can have compassion and empathy, mercy, grace, forgiveness and love in a whole new way and to really spur each other on towards love and good deeds. So that's really at the heart of what the Enneagram is. And what we want to do with the Enneagram is to help us to know that heart condition. Are we aligned, misaligned, or out of alignment with the truth of the Gospel? Meaning, do we know who we are, but more importantly, whose we are? And when we know whose we are, our identity in Christ, no matter what personality type are. You're going to be living at a healthy, aligned perspective. Right. The overflow of our heart. So the Enneagram really shows us if our heart is aligned or misaligned with the truth of the gospel and not to bring shame and condemnation. In fact, it's to free us from that, because that's what Christ did. It's to bring us back to the freedom and the unconditional love that we have in him.

Yeah, I would say from. Just from my first encounter with the Enneagram. I mean, at first I thought I was a 2, which I know we'll get into the types here in a minute, so this will make more sense if you're not familiar. I remember a friend telling me I was a two. And I was like, oh, okay, cool. That's fine. And then once we kind of got into it, my wife looked at me and was like, babe, you're not a two. Not a chance. Love you so much.

Right?

Love you so much you're not a two. She's like, I think you might actually be a seven. And I was like, no, whatever. Anyways, I read into it. And what was cool is immediately felt like shame was being diminished. And that's why it's such a unique tool for me. When I was a pastor, I would forget people's names really, really quick. And I felt like I had to write everything down. And I assumed that I just was dumb or not intelligent enough or not disciplined enough to remember things. And what I realized was, no no, no. My brain is going at such a high capacity all the time that it's hard for me to be present in a moment. And so even in that moment, I may be expressing, you know, care and affection to this person, but I'm like, I'm three days later thinking about something that's coming. And for me, it helped give language to why. Like you said, why I'm doing that, it wasn't some moral failing of mine or some lack in some way. It's just how I'm wired. And so, for me, it gave me handles to hold onto. And that's why I feel like the Enneagram has been so helpful for me individually.

Yeah. And actually, if I can piggyback on that, one thing that's really important that I think, unfortunately, our culture is not doing a good job with the Enneagram, is we always try to teach people, do not use the Enneagram as a sword or a shield. And the reason why I'm picking back off of what you said is you're not doing that. You're owning your stuff, but you're also giving yourself compassion and understanding because you could beat yourself up or, you know, why am I not like, so and so? So we don't want to use it as a sword towards ourselves or to others where we're, you know, belittling people. We're shaming, we're hurting, we're condemning, we're mocking, making fun of.

Yeah.

And we don't want to use it as a shield. Like. Like you could have easily said, well, I'm a seven. That's just what I do. Two bad guys. You're just going to have to wear name tags. No, we want, if anything calls us to grow.

Yeah.

In our likeness to Christ. But the Enneagram helps to reveal our weaknesses, our blind spots, the things that we need to grow in. And sometimes that's where we just own it and we realize, hey, you know what? I'm not great at this, but you are. Can you, you know, fulfill this? And then sometimes we have to grow in it. So I think that's really important because the. Because people can use the Enneagram in such a way that can be really destructive, or it can be something that can bring relationships together.

Totally.

Yeah. I really appreciate what you said about, are we aligned or misaligned with God's heart, with God's truth, with God's will for us? Because I think in all the personality tests, you can see people, and I think I've done this. We use them as an excuse for bad behavior or even sin. It's like, well, you know, that's just who I am. I'm a. I'm a high d. High. I. I'm a driver. Like, sorry, I didn't consider your feelings deal. It's like, well, no, that might help me define what's going on, but it doesn't excuse bad behavior. It helps me see what are the things in life I will need to wrestle with maybe more than others and then make that a part of my spiritual journey to bring those to God, to bring it to my daily surrender. Lord, this is the way I want to treat people, or this is the way I kind of naturally see the world. But help me to have the mind of Christ. Help me to take on your spirit. And. And I just think that's what we're after in doing this interview with you guys is helping us all understand ourselves. Not so we can make excuses, but so we can recognize where do we invite God uniquely into our lives to meet us and work in our hearts? Yep.

Well, in our mission statement at your Enneagram coach is to help people to understand themselves with astonishing clarity so they can break free from self condemnation, fear, and shame by knowing and experiencing the unconditional love, forgiveness, and freedom in Christ.

Yeah.

Now, the one word you don't hear in our mission statement is Enneagram.

Yeah.

Obviously, we think the Enneagram is a pretty powerful tool.

Totally.

Yes.

But it's the gospel that transforms us. It's the perfect life, the death and the resurrection of Jesus Christ applied to us and for us to go back to it each and every day, each and every hour, every minute, because we forget all the time. The Enneagram is just illuminating where our heart condition is at any given moment.

And I don't want to get ahead of us too much, but one of the unique things about the Enneagram that differentiates it from other personality tools is this dynamic part that I exercise my sense of personality, the way in which I relate to the world and relate to myself and relate to other people, and is that these are the very places where we will experience the truth of the gospel. These are the very places are the habits that we try to live apart from the gospel. And these are the parts of us that God intends to use for the purposes. For his purposes, for God glorifying purposes. And so the Enneagram is really an insightful tool to give us vocabulary to see things that one we don't want to see in ourselves, but also to find a new energy and A new vision for our life and what it means to love others.

Yeah.

So good. Thank you for the idea, by the way, for everyone to wear name tags. I will now incorporate that in my life and moving forward. All right, so we've talked about it, you know, and like, now it's like. And we could spend an entire episode just on this question. And so I know you're the expert, so I'm leaning on you. Can you give each of the nine types and a brief description, just so people have an idea of what we're talking about here?

Here? Yeah. And I just want people to know that when we say nine types, we're talking about nine basic types. We use all nine types to varying degrees. So it's not like, oh, you're just one type and nothing of the others. No, we use all nine of them. And then even with our main type, there's so many layers to the Enneagram. Totally think about each type being like a Sherman Williams paint color, you know, swatch, where there's all these different colors of blue. So just because you're a type 1 or a 6 or a 7 or whatever you are, it doesn't mean you're just in a box. There's so much more to the Enneagram that that shows the range of different parts of you. But we do want to find that personality type that reigns supreme, which is your main type. And the main type is so important because that's where your core motivations are, why you think, feel, and behave in particular ways. So each of the personalities have a core fear. This is where you're running away or trying to prevent this from happening. You have a core desire. This is the thing that if I just have this, life will be perfect. And then we have a core weakness. Some teachers call it the passion or the deadly sin. But we call it the core weakness. Because we are weak, but he is strong, and his grace is sufficient for us. But our core weakness constantly reminds us that we need him. And then we have a core longing, the message that our heart longs to hear. And anyone can go to your enneagram coach.com coremotivations to see all nine core motivations in a free PDF. So you can put that in your link, your show notes, links. And what's really helpful is for people to look at those and think through usually, like, let's say when we get a little activated inside.

Why?

What's going on? Like, what got me activated? And then rank those core motivations accordingly and you can start to see your type there as well. But so the Type one, they want things right and perfect. They're the principled reformers. They see things black and white, ethics, morals, procedures. And for them, making mistakes is not okay. They struggle with this internal critic that is loud and berating and will not let up until something is perfect. Now, the type 2, they're the nurturing support porters, and they love or they desire to be wanted, loved and appreciated. They fear being rejected, not wanted, loved or needed. And for them, they struggle with pride. Now, the amazing thing with the Type Twos is they know other people's feelings and needs and they move into it and they assert themselves confidently. Now, the problem is not everybody is necessarily wanting that help, but for them, they have to help because they fear being rejected or that you think they're being selfish. Now, the Type Threes are the admirable achiever. And the Type Threes, they fear being a failure, insignificant, worthless, inefficient. They desire to have high status, high regard. For them, their core weakness is deceit. Now, deceit here means that they deceive themselves into believing that they're only the image they present to others. And so what they want to do is they want to put on a polished Persona for themselves and others to see and then for others to admire. Now, the Type 4 is the introspective individualist, and they fear being ordinary, mundane, playing just like everyone else and having their emotions cut off like they can't express them. They desire to have uniqueness, that they're different, they're special, they're their most authentic self. Now, for them, they struggle with envy and envy. They see others as having all that they're lacking and they desire to have what's missing. Now, the Type Fives are the. Sorry guys, we've changed the names here recently. The Analytical Investigator. For them, they fear not having enough knowledge to be ignorant, incompetent, and they desire to have knowledge to have all the information to move forward, but they fear that they don't have that. So for them, they struggle with avarice. And avarice means they want to hoard or hold onto all of these internal resources, energy, knowledge, etc. And they fear that too much interaction with others will lead to catastrophic depletion. Now, the Type Sixes are the faithful guardians, and they fear, fear itself being without support, guidance and security and abandon. But they desire that security and support and guidance. But for them, they struggle with anxiety. Now, of course, everyone has anxiety, but for them, they have this inner committee that is constantly chiming in with all that could go wrong. So they are trying to prevent those things, but it can scatter them. It can cause self doubt. Now the type sevens you will be familiar with this, the enthusiast optimistic type. They fear being emotion or trapped in emotional pain, deprived, limited and bored and definitely missing out on something fun. They desire to be happy, satisfied and fully content. But they struggle with the core weakness of gluttony. And this isn't just about food though, foods included. This is about they desire to have as many exciting adventures, stimulation experiences. The problem is they never feel like they are completely filled up and satisfied. And then our eights are the passionate protectors. They fear being harm controlled and left at the mercy of injustice. They desire to protect themselves and those around them. They struggle with excess and too much energy lust and trying to gain as much as they can. And then our last but not least is my type, the peaceful accommodator. We fear conflict, tension of any kind and being overlooked. All we're desiring is inner stability and peace of mind. But we struggle with sloth. And this isn't a physical laziness, though we do like our cozy comforts. This is about an internal sloth and not knowing ourselves because we go along to get along. We merge with others. We don't speak up for ourselves. So those are the nine types.

So good.

This is why she's the expert.

Yeah, well I think even as you're describing, those listeners are processing their own life and starting to see themselves. And I really appreciate the tool where they can go and, and start to deep dive into that. But I, I know for some of our listeners, and we were mentioning this in the pre show time, that there's kind of this. What about in their stage spirit, like is this biblical? The Enneagram is not in the Bible as a word or the types. And maybe especially for your perspective, Jeff, as a pastor, there's speculation about some of the origins, maybe new age background of the Enneagram. So what are the spiritual roots of the Enneagram? And you've kind of alluded to this as well, Beth, that you have kind of done that translating into a biblical, into a biblical perspective. But how do you speak to bible believing Christ followers who are trying to navigate is it okay for me to use this tool? How do you kind of process the origins of the Enneagram and what it looks like for us?

Well one, I appreciate the question because a mature follower of Christ should be asking these questions. I mean time and again God's people have at times segmented themselves from culture entirely and have retreated from it. And some have kind of merged with culture. And so, yeah, we're called to test the spirits. And so it's an admirable virtue. And we're not going to answer the question for everybody, because in church history, the church has answered it in a variety of different ways. But it is true that particularly the gentlemen who were put together, the modern form of the Enneagram, were more Eastern mystics. They were not Christians, and they spoke of the Enneagram in those terms. Now, what's interesting, though, is that for, I think a lot of Christians think of the Enneagram similar to how we might think of Mormonism, Joseph Smith talking to an angel, putting together an authoritative text and building a church off of it. But that's totally different than how the Enneagram emerged, that despite the fact that these gentlemen were Eastern mystics and borrowing from various worldviews, it was much more like a university professor teaching students, because the students who then took those basic form of the Enneagram started to take away, add to, or reframe what those original teachers were teaching. Even the first generation of Enneagram teachers in the United States did not embrace the worldviews of the original founders, Ichazo and Naranjo. And so there's no authority to it that people were leaving out things that they disagreed with. People have been adding to it. And so the way that we think about it is that the Scriptures themselves always had some type of relationship to its culture. It is a gift that God has given us, a biblical text that was always enculturated. For example, you have the Hittite suzerain treaty. Now, we don't. Most people don't know about what that is, but that's what a covenant was. So in the Old Testament, when God chose to use a ceremony to reveal his relationship to Abraham and his offspring, he chose a instrument that was commonly used for business agreements of his day. God is not afraid of using this. Matter of fact, all of the vocabulary that we use for the benefits of Christ's life, death and resurrection, words like regeneration, adoption, justification, those were already words in a culture that were being used that God used to explain something about what he had already done. And so you can go to your enneagramcoach.com origins there you'll see an article on our beliefs about the Enneagram, our beliefs about Christianity, plus three podcast episodes where we spend time talking about what are the origins, how do we think about the origins? And then also, what's the Christian application of the Enneagram.

And that's with two other pastors as well.

That's right.

Yeah.

Yeah. It is something, I think, and I love that perspective because I think so often, I mean, I've just heard. For me, I've listened to a lot of different podcasts and read resources and some of yours as well, and there just seemed to be these dueling perspectives that it's an okay thing, it's a tool. It's something that we can use for spiritual formation and development and maturity in Christ. And then there are people who talk about it being the Trojan horse and that it's what's going to explode and, you know, blow up the church. And I just, I really appreciate you guys perspective that it is something that, you know, Beth, to what you did, you're taking this tool and not saying it's outright Christian or it has to be what everything's founded on, but it is another tool to help us rightly understand and apply the gospel message to our lives. And that's what I hear you guys saying, is it is a tool that is very, very effective. It can be used in that. But isn't gospel itself?

Well, that's right. And I'll add this as well as just a biblical illustration of this. So when Israel was leaving Egypt, there's this brief mention that the Egyptians were throwing their gold into the streets for the Israelites to take on their way. But here's the problem. What do you think Israel built that first golden calf with? It was Egyptian gold. God gave them gold for their journey, but Christians misused it in one sense by building an idol, but it also funded their mission. And so the reality is this. Can the Enneagram become another Christian fad? Absolutely. There are some people that put more authority in the Enneagram than they do the scriptures. But we do that with authors, we do that with speakers.

I mean, yeah, we're in danger if we do that with anyone.

Anybody.

Right. So there are sometimes that Beth and I are like, hey, guys, you're into the Enneagram a little too much. We're not even into it that much because it's become kind of like an idol.

Yeah, yeah. And what I. And that's why we. We go back to our mission statement. The Enneagram is not in our mission statement. It's about Jesus Christ. And what we usually do is we really focus on Jeremiah 2:13 that says, you know, we have. Or God says, you have forsaken me, the spring of living water, and you have turned and you've dug cisterns, broken cisterns that cannot hold water. And when you look at the core motivations. I didn't speak to this, but each of them has a core longing. And we try so hard to get that from things here on Earth. It could be people, it could be drugs, it could be sex, it could be careers, you name it. We're trying to fulfill this core longing, but it's broken. They're broken cisterns. But Jesus Christ is right here, right next to us. And when we turn to him, he fills us exactly where we are needing it, that core longing. And so when people go download that free PDF on the core motivations, and you look at the core longing, start to think, how are you digging your own broken cisterns to fulfill this or demanding others to do it for you? That. How is Jesus already satisfied that for you? And go to that time and time again. And that's how the Enneagram can be powerful. It's when we take it and focus it in on how to apply the gospel to ourselves specifically.

Yep.

Yeah. I mean, I would say there are times in my life where I have noticed I've made the Enneagram one of those things that's filling the longings. And again, it's not. It's going to be a tool to help me find that in Christ. Absolutely. All right, so let's apply it a little bit more to what we do, how we help people. How can the Enneagram help us understand addiction, unwanted behaviors, addictive lifestyles?

Well, that's really helpful, and I just want to make just a qualifying remark regarding some of our thoughts about this. Because of the relatively newness of the Enneagram, there's not been a lot of research and an application to addiction or unwanted behaviors. That doesn't mean that it doesn't have insight into it, but what we will say regarding each Enneagram type and their inclination towards certain things, this is coming from our experience. This is coming from our observations. But we don't want to make this sound like this is a stereotype, that because you're this number, this is going to happen how it works. And we'll try to clarify that along the way. But the reason why the Enneagram is so helpful as it applies to unwanted behaviors or patterns of thinking and relating to the world is that it speaks to the core motivations. So in Jeremiah, or I'm sorry, James, chapter two, James says, what causes fights and quarrels among you? Don't they come from the desires that wage war in your heart. Meaning the issue is beginning with motivations that I am seeking as a person made in the image of God, trying to find a way to deal with the brokenness of my world, whether that be I'm experiencing tragedy or trauma, or I am perpetrating it. Those motivations begin in our hearts. And God tells us that our hearts are wayward. We can be blinded by our motivations. They can take away our sight and understanding of ourself. And so we reach out. The Enneagram helps to give language to the why we think, feel and behave in particular ways. As I mentioned earlier regarding this simple example of Beth and I in an argument. Beth. It wasn't a particularly intense argument, but I just felt like I've screwed up enough now that she's finally going to leave me. That is a core message that I carried in my soul, having been a little boy being adopted. But imagine all of the coping behaviors to deal with that kind of anxiety that people are eventually going to leave me. That's going to justify patterns of eating, patterns of thinking patterns as it relates to sexuality and gender, all in order to appease this fear in my heart that, that God has given me. Like there's a kid needs connection, a kid needs attunement, right?

Feeling safe and secure.

Feeling safe and secure. But the Enneagram helped to give vocabulary to how I used my natural abilities to live apart from God to try to meet those needs.

Yeah, I've just really seen that in my own life as I've understood the Enneagram more and looking at, at some of the roots of my struggle with pornography and our story. You know, like for so many, the addiction began in teenage years and as a high school athlete, you know, as a three on the Enneagram, being an achiever and looking for success and being good enough. And I had a lot of really difficult experiences as a high school athlete and had never pieced together how, you know, lust and pornography, a fantasy world became that place. I was always successful, I was always good enough. I was always wanted and had never pieced together how much that attached to my core longing until kind of walking through pure desire process and seeing him enneagram stuff like, oh, it makes this make sense. Like I can see why I reached out for those things in the way that I did. And I think also helping me understand what did my pattern look like? Because I think when we unmask the pattern of brokenness, then we're much more equipped to actually deal with it because it's not just random it's not just, well, I'm a guy with hormones. It's like, no, this is connected. Like you were saying, Beth, this is connected to my deep longings. And when I see that, then I can work towards how do I attach those deep longings to Christ and community and to health, rather than just letting them keep taking me back to those old, unhealthy places.

Yeah. And you mentioned something very clear. Whenever I've spoken with a few of my friends who have wrestled with pornography and gotten help, they often, through the. And this is Enneagram language. Right. Because that's what they're talking to me about. They. Even the images and the videos that they're looking at in some way relate to their enneagram type.

Yeah.

So it's a reflection that what you're looking at is a reflection of what you are longing for internally. That the enneagram actually gives you a vocabulary to be able to cultivate a relationship to now so that you understand what those fundamental needs are for you as a person.

Yeah. I would. I'll just pitch in a little bit of my story to that point, just to give an example. A not a graphic example, but I would just say in my addiction, I would pursue seeing situations where people were pursuing the male, that a female was pursuing the male. Because my fear of being in, you know, in these unwanted or negative emotions and being stuck, if someone pursues me, there's no. There's no rejection there. There's no feet. You know, I don't even need to get close to that line of a negative emotion. And so if I am the one who pursues and I am the one who initiates, there's always that opportunity for rejection, for someone to say no, for me to then, you know, have to sit in the emotion that I'm probably already running away from, you know, anyways. And so I would just say that's how I've seen that applied. And I know we've talked about. You guys are going to have some conversations with a friend of ours, Jay Stringer, about this. He's got a lot of that, too, that lust. Once we can investigate and look at our lust, that really holds a lot of keys to some of the wounds that we carry. And it's through that that we actually start to see where healing can happen.

Yes.

That's great.

Yeah. And I think, just like what you're saying, type seven, core longing, is to hear or experience. I will be taken care of.

Yep.

And that's exactly what you're talking about, like, right the pursuit of the woman to the male, in a sense, that's. It's being taken care of. But, you know, then here in our broken world, as a seven, it feels like I can't be taken care of. I can't trust anyone. I. I have all of these desires and longings, but no one's coming through for me. Or at least that I can feel. Feel it. Feel completely satisfying, content. And so we go looking for it somewhere else. But that's why coming back to that spring of living water and the path of growth for each type is so important, because for a seven, it's really sitting in the blessings that you already have in Christ and feeling that satisfaction that he has taken care of you completely. Now it's not like all of a sudden, poof, magic. You know, you're going to feel great the rest of your life. No, we're on this side of heaven.

Yeah.

And so we struggle with the already, but not yet. You know, we already have the fulfillment of Christ, and yet we still, because of sin, are going to struggle. But he doesn't leave us bare. He's with us.

Yeah.

So good.

Yeah. So do you guys see, as you've studied the enneagram, do you see that there are certain enneagram numbers that are more prone to addiction? And I'm sure some of our listeners are thinking, like, does my enneagram number kind of do me, that I will be an addict?

Or can I think. Yes, Sevens.

Yes. All enneagram types have the potential for addiction just through their own lens.

Yeah, that's a great question. And another form of that question is when couples find their enneagram type, are we the worst couple? Like, should we not have gotten married? Or it comes up. It comes up in parenting, like, you know, what should God have given us these children? Because we're only. We're the worst parents. And the reality is, is that each enneagram type has an approach to addiction. It's not one is more prone than other, but it's the uniqueness of what. Why?

Yeah.

Is it serving? And so someone can look at the same image. Someone can have the same repetitive habit or behavior, but they're doing it for different reasons. They're seeking different needs to be met. As a matter of fact, this even goes back a little bit further. So if you were to ask, let's say there was a parental divorce and that was the source of relational brokenness that eventually would lead to addiction in adulthood. Well, each sibling would have a different perspective on the impact of that divorce. And whatever unwanted behavior they want is meeting a different need. But it's all related to the same incident.

Yeah.

And so that there, there's. I can't remember. I think it was. What was the. The really popular TV show where they. They were all their siblings and they're talking about they. But they wish that they could all go back. Yeah, this is us.

Great show, by the way. Watch it. It's amazing. Family of origin do it.

But they all had a different perspective on family life. But that family life still had impact upon their adulthood life.

And what I'd like to speak to the question because I think it's a great question and I think a lot of people out there that are familiar with Enneagram, they'll probably first say, well, of course, sevens, you know, and they'll throw sevens under the bus.

Yes.

As the ones that are the most addictive types. Well, that's because it's so obvious. You know, sevens are. Again, there's. Or eights, you know, they're.

I don't know, I'd say some addicted threes are making a lot of headlines.

I mean, just that very thing. It's almost like you want to say, well, hey, I'm a six. We're in this game too.

We've got our own issues.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so the reason why I say a lot of people will say like sevens or eights is because it's so overt and so obvious. But nines can be very addictive types. But you're going to see it in a completely different manner. You're going to see it. You're going to see them become more catatonic, basically kind of numb themselves out, maybe play a ton of video games or they're online a lot, or maybe they're just checking out and they're not relating to people in general, but they're using other means. Or maybe they're using drugs to numb out. So. But they're not going to be so obvious and overt with it.

Well, it makes me think too think of type ones, the principled reformers. You would think, oh, someone who's so perfectionistic, who's so morally attuned, like their conscience would be too sensitive to handle such a thing. But ones can have almost a segmented, compartmentalized life, that an addiction could be thriving alongside perfectionism or moral superiority. And that's true for all of the nine types. It looks different and it's for different reasons, but each of the nine types can. I mean, of course, I mean, we're all idolaters, Right?

Yeah.

And so we just pick your flavor.

So as I just really caution people to. To not pinpoint a type as more into addictions than others, it's just going to look different.

It's like you were saying, it's the lens. And we all have a lens. And through our lens, we can find our way into unwanted behavior. And if we can understand the other thing you said that I really liked and picked up on today, you know, what is the why that it's serving for every enneagram type. The why might be a little different, but if we can see that why, it'll really help us look at what recovery might look like.

Yeah. And leave my number. Leave my number alone. Like, leave sevens out. Like, we get it.

But like, you know, like, for me As a type 9, you know, I could totally see why nines would maybe get into drugs or gaming or, you know, just zoning out because that we. It's a. It's a faux piece. Right. It's a fake piece.

Totally.

We can. We can escape from the chaos, the. The conflict of the world, the tension that's there. Obviously not, but that's what we're thinking. And so we want to be mindful of why are people doing this and what are their. What are they trying to get? And unfortunately, they think they're going to be able to get what they long for or want or need in a pattern or a path that's actually going to bring destruction.

Right.

And that's why we can, if we can just always come back to these core motivations and then always turn back to the spring of living water. That is where real life will be had.

Yeah.

I mean, the way that we talk about it here is that the addiction, the unwanted behavior is actually just a symptom of the actual problem. It's a way that we're masking or numbing out from that actual problem. Let's look at the betrayal side. You know, I think just even listening to your response to that question, I think we all experience betrayal to some degree in life. But are there types that. That might be more traumatic for.

You know, that's a really good question. And just to clarify, are you speaking of the person with the unwanted behavior experiencing betrayal or the unwanted behavior being perceived by someone else as a betrayal?

Yeah, I think a lot of our audience, when I talk about betrayal, betrayal, trauma, it's from a spouse. The spouse of the married to an addict.

Yeah, that's right. Okay, that's helpful. But the principle is still true for each of them. And so, you know, we all will experience betrayal. I mean, we talk to our kids often about our own character defects and what that means and how it's going to impact their lives. Although not abandonment or maybe particularly abusive or harmful, they will experience betrayal from us to some degree. But yes. So although it is true, Type Sixes and type Eights may have a more sensitive sensor for issues around betrayal. We experience betrayal through the lens of our type. But here's the thing. So If a type 2 experiences betrayal, it proves to them the lie that they believe that they are being rejected and are unlovable.

Yeah.

But a type 6 might experience that through their lens, through their core longing and that it's not safe to be in the world. So it justifies your already held beliefs about yourself.

Yeah, reinforces it.

Yeah. And then even as a three, you know, it could be, well, I've tried so hard to be the best spouse, you know, to be there to provide and to bring value.

I'm a failure. I have failed.

I'm a failure. Like my spouse is off doing this thing, and obviously I haven't been the best spouse, you know, and so then it feeds that those, those limiting beliefs.

Are head trash or it reinforces the core weaknesses that you were talking about.

Yeah, well, and you can imagine, I mean, that's why some of the measurement and codependent enabling behaviors come about. Because, yes, they don't want to recognize something about themselves. So if, if I have a vow to be perfect, but my spouse is not living a life that makes me feel like I'm perfect, then I'm going to keep trying to fix them in order to fulfill something in my life?

Yeah.

Can I ask a follow up on that? Do you also see that people, instead of just trying to fix them, can you also see types that try to change themselves and change their own filters to then be able to mesh better with their spouse? Beth just raised her hand if you're listening.

I was actually just gonna say that.

Yeah.

I mean, for me, as a nine, it's all about merging. It's meshing with the spouse. And I grew up with. With some abuse. Low, low, little lay abuse. And even now, I'm starting to learn how I brought those thought patterns into our marriage. Though Jeff has never displayed those because I had so much of that way of thinking. I was like, oh, well, if I just become whatever he wants me to become, if I'm just a great pastor's wife, if I'm a great mom, if I'm a great whatever, I'll just do whatever he wants me to do. And that was so not what he was wanting. He was like, I want you to be you. But I didn't know what to do with that. And so, yes, it was all about figuring out how to merge, become whatever they want, and then you lose yourself in the process. So I would say there's going to be several types that. That do that or could do that. But I would say nines for sure, are going to definitely fall into that trap.

Well, I mean, it's. It's much easier to address things that are within our control versus an uncontrollable spouse. And so a natural inclination to betrayal is, okay, what can I do so this doesn't happen again?

Yeah.

And it makes us feel. Because we don't want to continue to face the fact that our spouse may be more committed to their addiction than they are to us.

But it's vital for both spouses individually to start doing their own work.

Yes.

And this can be extremely hard, especially for the spouse that isn't the one that's addicted, you know, because, you know, there. There's this panic. Well, I gotta. I gotta learn. I gotta fix. I got to change. What can I do? But really, by becoming a healthier version of themselves in the likeness of Christ, that is where things really will transform. Maybe not in the way that they expected. Yeah, but. But God will do a work in and through them that will free them right where they're at.

Yeah. Now. Now you're really speaking our language. So let's start to dive into some of the specifics of the numbers and the types. And we're going to start it in this part, and then next week will be part two, where we'll get through the rest of them. But let's look specifically at what some have called the gut triad. Eights, nines, and ones. And talk about, why would these numbers in particular, what would their lens be in turning towards addictive behaviors and perhaps sexual addiction in particular?

Well, Beth, you may want to explain first. So within the Enneagram conversation, there's something called a triad, and they're groups of three. You just mentioned the gut triad. Eight, nines and ones. Why don't you explain? Triad and the gut triad.

Yeah, I mean, this is the central or the centers of intelligence. Triads. Each type is in one of these centers. There's three of them. It's the head, the heart, and the gut. Or the body, you can call the body, but really it's the gut. So the only other place that mirror neurons are. That are in the brain are also in the gut. You know, when you have a gut instinct, it's like feeling like, you know, you can't really put words to it. Unfortunately, in our English language, you know, we talk about, oh, I feel this and we nuance it, and I think this and we nuance it. We don't know how to nuance the gut, but we do have these gut instincts. Now, all the nine types use all three instincts or all three triads. So we don't want to pretend like, oh, well, the sevens that are in the head triad, they don't use any of the feelings. No, that's not true.

But though we try not to use our feelings, I'll tell you that right now.

Yes, yes, yes, yes.

But we do, when we're in a situation, we typically first operate out of this particular triad. So the eights, nines and ones are in the gut triad. They usually have a gut instinct, or the nines are the ones that will suppress it and kind of ignore it. And so it's important for us to kind of realize that so well, and.

Also that they're dealing with something, a fundamental issue, and that is justice.

Yeah, yeah. So they have an imbalance in their emotion for justice. They really want to. And it's justice in different ways. The eights want to protect others from the injustice of the world and themselves from a more harm. Control goes along with their core motivations. The nine, on the other hand, it's all about is someone else being harmed or belittled or marginalized from like, does your presence matter? That's a really big deal for the nine. Your presence. And then the type ones, it has to do with the justice has to do with right and wrong procedures, ethics, morals, all that kind of stuff. And so you'll see that, yes, they have an overarching theme. It gets nuanced for each type of.

And those things are important when talking about a triad in this way as it relates to addiction. So the, the, the way in which they process it, it's going to be much more. Their bodies really involved in it because it is more instinctual. And the way in which they're perceiving this idea of dealing with their anger and injustice in the world, that things aren't the way that they're supposed to be, is going to show itself in their unwanted behavior.

So the, the eight, nines and ones, they struggle with anger. Now the type nines are going to be like, what? I don't have anger unless they have a Strong eight being like me. But the eights, they have like this burning fire inside all the time. And they're very familiar with it. And their gut instinct is like. And I describe the gut instincts as 2 liter Coke bottles, okay? The eights have a 2 liter Coke, diet coke, mind you, that has the lid off of it. And life and circumstances are like mentos and it's being thrown in and the ages instantly explodes. And it doesn't mean explodes as in always raging in anger, but they have this gut instinct that is instantaneous. It's not a thought, it's an action. It's visceral. Now the Type 9, on the other hand, is like a 2 liter Coke with the lid tight on it. So all of the emotions and the feelings and the passion, all that stuff is just bottled up because again, we want to go along to get along, but life and circumstances are still shaking up that 2 liter coke. And as we all know, there's a lot of pressure inside, but the nine fears, tension and discord. So we are afraid that lid is going to come off. And so we want to go away, check out, numb out, withdraw, hoping that we can let that simmer down before it explodes. And so by doing that, we lose ourselves and lose our own understanding of how to use that anger in a right way. And then the ones are like the 2 liter coke with the lid slight on, slight off. And life and circumstances are shaking it up because remember, they want to do what's right, not wrong. So they don't want to explode with anger, but it's definitely going to come out sideways. They might be prickly, they might be critical, they might be judgmental, but they're all doing it because they're being helpful in making sure everything is just right. And so we all, we can experience that kind of the spewing from the outside, like, whoa, wait, what's going on? Like, no, I'm just helping. And so we want to recognize this comes from that visceral gut reaction.

So as it would look for unwanted behaviors, the eights have this insatiable desire for intensity and they put on this very strong Persona that can isolate them. So what ends up happening for the eight is that they're looking to. They've got this ball of energy in them and they're wanting life to work on the way that they want it to work and they want relationships. But then they also come along with this. I am my own person. So they can get very isolated. And others who are trying to address it, it's like, you're running into a wall. And so eights often will find themselves with unwanted behaviors because they're trying to deal with this insatiable desire for intensity. And they may not be getting it from, from life, from reality. And so they'll choose fantasy to exert their sense of authority or their power, their desire, their lustful desires for intensity. For nines, what it can look like their core weakness or actually defensive mechanism is a term that we use for it is anarchetization or are falling asleep to oneself. Nines will use unwanted behaviors and patterns in order to numb. So if eights are trying to fill the nines are trying to numb because they don't want to deal with the confusion and intensity of life. They want to escape. And so they're going to look for much more peaceful places where their body and their mind can come to rest. And it's choose your flavor. Well, ones are trying one of the ways that one of their experiences that can elite unwanted behaviors is trying to answer the criticisms of their inner critic. If your mind is always racing of trying to fix the world, where do you go? Whenever the world won't be fixed. And so they'll choose behaviors to try to alleviate that. But as with all three of these, these are self sabotaging behaviors because it, as Paul says in Colossians 2, these rules and regulations are destined to perish with you. So the more that A1 has this compartmentalized part of their life of unwanted behavior, it reinforces that they aren't fundamentally good and experience shame. So they end up becoming more critical towards others. But this secret part of their life, they have this unwanted behavior.

Yeah, I'm just gonna let that sit for a minute. That's so good. So let's transition. I mean, I want to be sensitive to our listeners right now. If you're in that triad, maybe pause right now and just think through that or go back and listen to that again just how you might experience those. Let's look at the same numbers now. When they experience betrayal, what does betrayal look like for these numbers?

Yeah, why don't you go and give some thoughts about what?

Yeah, I mean the first thought was eights.

And I'm like, oh gosh, we can almost feel it for the eights. Like so sorry.

Yeah, I mean that's, that's one of their greatest, greatest fears is betrayal. And so what they long actually remember the core. Longing is so important and we're trying to satisfy that in our own way here on earth. But only Christ satisfies that. So what the eights long to hear is, you will not be betrayed. Well, here they are being betrayed, and they're like. They're listening to this, and they're like, but I am. And that's why you're absolutely right. Our spouses, our children, our co workers, our friends, they will betray us to some degree, but Christ doesn't. In fact, he was the most betrayed. And so we can come to him knowing that when he says he will not forsake or leave us or betray us, that we can be grounded in that, and we can come in fullness and healing there.

One of the things that comes to mind for me is that eights spend so much of their life seeking to protect themselves from being betrayed that, you know, oftentimes it's difficult in being married to a spouse who's innate, because anytime that they may disagree with our behavior, they can get really strong for fear of what could happen. And so sometimes what aids fear, There's a great line, and it was by Joseph Campbell, I believe, but it was in one of Bernay brown's books, that the cave you fear holds the treasure you seek. And so for an eight to come alive to all that Christ is for them, they will face betrayal. But if we think of Jesus sitting at the last supper together with his disciples and knowing that these very men are going to betray him in the coming weeks, he washed their feet. He served them food. So there's a vision for what eights can be when in the face of betrayal. But they're going to have to walk through all of the experiences that nothing that they did could have prevented what has happened, and they fundamentally are vulnerable. But the vision is that actually eights who have experienced and embraced a fallen world become advocates for other people. So this traumatic betrayal actually can eventually, in time, become a gift. Why don't you talk about a type nine?

Yeah. So the type nine. You know, this is really hard because for the type 9, they have constantly been thinking about how to merge, how to make their spouse happy. What can I do to satisfy them in a way that they won't be in this addiction or this plight? And so for the nines are constantly feeling, I'm not enough, and the focus really gets turned inward at them. And they are going to continue this pattern, this process, because. Because for them, their core longing is to hear your presence matters. And obviously, this addiction that their spouse has is what matters for the spouse. And they're trying so hard to find something that will say to them, your presence matters. And that's when turning back to Christ, Christ literally left his throne to come to live a brutal life, diet brutal death, and then to rise again, all to bring them back to himself.

So sadly for the nine, the betrayal becomes a justification of the beliefs that they already have about themselves. We've mentioned that earlier. So if you live with the fact that you're not enough and that, or that I'm trying to think, or that your voice doesn't matter, yeah, you, this betrayal just justified that belief. So the temptation for the nine is to check out, retreat and retreat to a mesh versus finding their voice in this moment, to speak to how they want to be treated and how they want the relationship to move forward. And so it's a very difficult place for a nine to be, to not believe what they've always believed about themselves, but to believe something that, that this betrayal is actually revealing, that you do matter. Your presence matters, your, your voice matters, your emotions matter, you as a person are significant in and of yourself.

And then for the Type one, the spouse that's being betrayed, you know, for them, they are constantly wanting to do what is right, to not make mistakes, and for their spouse to do the same. So that the spouse is probably giving a lot of advice, a lot of what they should and shouldn't be doing, a lot of criticism, maybe judgments, and it could be sideways, it could be overt, but they, what they are longing to hear, why they're doing that is they want to hear you are good, so you are a good spouse. But again, that is only by doing it that way. It is only going to perpetuate the problems and they are going to feel less good and there's going to be more self condemnation for themselves. But again, if we can turn to the spring of living water, Christ says you are good. Not because the type one themselves is good, but because Christ's righteousness has been placed on and credited to them.

You know, in order for a one to live in a perfect world, in the right world, in some ways they have to disassociate from their emotional world. It's too chaotic and it's too messy. And one of the great idioms that I've walked away from my experience in recovery is that if it's not messy, you're not doing it right. And so for the one, it's recovery is start and stop. It's two steps forward, a step back, and a step to the side every once in a while. And it's very difficult for the one to not be in control of the situation. But this can actually in time become a real gift. Because then the one recognizes that their tight grip on the world is actually creating their biggest fear. And that by releasing it, they're actually becoming a fuller person and can become more present to themselves. And the inner critic starts to subside.

And they're trusting that Christ is the one that's in control and that Christ is the one that has given not only them his righteousness, but their spouse.

I mean, think about that. For the type one who's been betrayed, the type one may choose a self protective measure to say you broke the rules. And so here's the process versus you betrayed me as a person that's more vulnerable, that's about me and my heart versus what the rule is. And so there's a real opportunity for the ones to engage in their hearts.

And it's also a perfect opportunity to not only learn about Christ grace upon themselves, but then how to take that experience and then what does it look like to then extend that to their spouse.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I'm sure If you're an 8, 9 or a 1 in that gut triad, you're hopefully picking up a lot about your journey yourself. And if you're not an 8 or a 9 or a 1 in the next part, we're going to get into your number and take those deeper. But as we look to wrap up this first part, give us a little, and you guys have already mentioned some things, but give us maybe a few principles for people in the gut triad about what their recovery, what healing would look like for them through addiction and betrayal.

That's a really good question. And here's the reality is that the Enneagram is a helpful tool, but it doesn't offer the promise of transformation aside from just knowing. Right. And so in learning about the Enneagram one, there is, I have greater vocabulary, a more focused vocabulary on what I'm actually feeling. So by doing a deeper dive on your specific Enneagram type, we're talking at a 30,000 foot level. I mean we can go scuba diving here, it's that deep. But the idea is that you can have a vocabulary to explain what you're experiencing. Number two is compassion. That we carry so much shame in our hearts and in our bodies. And so the Enneagram is an opportunity to kind of separate from yourself, to be able to observe something of who you are as a person. That you're, you're more than your addiction, you are more than the betrayal. And that God intends good for you and has a heart of delight. For you, so you can experience compassion for where your life is. I love the quote by Jerry Bridges that you're never so good, that you're beyond the need for God's grace, and you're never so bad that you're beyond its reach. And then I think the last thing is this. And we say this a lot to for each of the nine types. For eights becoming aware of your lust for intensity. Beth describes it almost like a dimmer switch. And eights feel like they need to have it turned on and all the way up at all times. How is your lust for intensity actually thwarting your desire for life in relationship? For the nines, how have you. Where, when and where did you lose yourself in this? Where did you lose your sense of identity? And to see how even the stories that you tell, the way in which you. Where you give away your voice, you give away your sense of personhood to those whom you are in relationships with. And for the type ones, it, a lot of it comes back to their inner critic. For one, sometimes they don't even recognize that the inner critic is a part of them. And sometimes they wrongly assume that the inner critic is the Holy Spirit.

Wow.

And so to develop a relationship and to be able to define, relate to their inner critic and understand its role and how they are relating to the world apart from Christ.

Yeah. And then just describe, because this is actually a huge moment for most ones, describe the difference between what the inner critic is like, what the Holy Spirit's like.

That's right. So when you look at passages in the New Testament regarding the Holy Spirit, that the Holy Spirit's role is always to lead us back to Christ. So the Spirit convicts us of our need for Christ. The spirit in Romans 8 illuminates our hearts and cries out, abba, Father. The Spirit illuminates the scriptures and reminds us of all the things that Jesus has taught us. But you'll notice that the inner critic doesn't lead you to greater levels of love and freedom and joy. The inner critic is more about getting it right. The it doesn't. The inner critic doesn't lead you to places of vulnerability and trust with Jesus. It leads you to more getting things under control and making sure that everything is done well.

And the Holy Spirit is going to bring about the sense of grace, kindness, and joy and abundance. And those are things that the inner critic is usually staying away from. Because if the inner critic fears if we go in that direction, then it'll be licentiousness. And you're just gonna do whatever you want. Whereas the Holy Spirit understands how all of those things can actually be together. You can live a right life with Christ and feel that, you know, exuberant joy and praise and light heartedness that he brings.

All right, well this is very powerful and it's just part one of our conversation.

Can't wait to get to my number.

Yes, it's coming. We'll jump into part two next week where we explore the heart and the head triad of the Enneagram. And remember, wherever you're at on your journey, pure desire is here to help create a roadmap for your healing. If you or someone you know is impacted by sexual brokenness or betrayal trauma, go to PureDesire.org and let's start the healing journey today. Don't forget to subscribe to the podcast. Each week we put out new content to help you on the road to healing and freedom. And lastly, never stop being healthy.

Sam.