224 - The Enneagram & Recovery Pt. 2 w/ Jeff & Beth McCord

You're listening to the Pure Desire Podcast, your safe place to find hope, healing and freedom from sexual addiction, betrayal and relationship issues.

Hello.

Hello. I am your host, Trevor Windsor, and you're listening to episode 224 of the Pure Desire podcast. You're joining me, as always, is my co host, Nick Stumbo.

And now you know the rest of the story.

You are saying that because Today is part two of our two part episode series with Jeff and Beth McCord, where we talked about the Enneagram and how it integrates with recovery from addiction and betrayal trauma.

Yes. Now you're making the connections for me. That's a new story. Kind of like taking away my thunder.

Oh, I'm sorry.

Would you like to go back rerecord? No. That one was a pretty obvious connection, right?

Yes, and I missed the last one, so I felt like I just had to go with the right one.

We definitely left some listeners hanging because I think episode one, if I'm remembering correctly, we just get through the first three. So we left like six of them.

Yeah.

So all kinds of listeners are going, whoa, whoa, whoa, hey, what about in my number? Now you'll know the rest of the story. Just as our friend Paul Harvey used to always say, after those great little radio spots, you'll get it today. So glad you waited the one extra week, but I think it was worth it.

Yes. Also, if we're comparing, I am a 7 and I had to wait till the very last question. It was to figure out about my numbers.

Unique order there.

It's. Yeah, it's the normal order that I've seen in books. You start with eights and then make your way all the way to seven. So if you were impatient, just think about how I felt. Anyways, a few things.

The life of the party, feeling left out.

That's fomo. That's a thing. Okay. We're just getting real deep in the Enneagram. Okay, a few things. Subscribe to the podcast. Follow us on social media. And again, these are up on YouTube, so search these full episodes as well. And we do this every once in a while and just want to make sure people don't forget about it. We want them to know that they can be a part of something that we call team 58.

Yeah, it's team 58 on purpose because it's our way of saying we can't do this alone. You know, you and I record the podcast and we've got our counseling team and we've got others on the speaking team and we've got People that help print books and ship books, like, together we're a team. But even beyond that, there's those that are being impacted by the ministry, that are a part of praying, being ambassadors, sharing the story and all of that is what we just kind of wrapped into this idea of being Team 58 from Isaiah 58 that says you'll be known as those who rebuild the broken walls and restore the fallen cities. And as we experience healing, all of us, whether we're helping ship books or speak or are in our local church as a part of a group, we can be a part of advancing this message of hope and freedom. And so for everyone that becomes a part of that through their regular monthly gift to Pure Desire. We call them team 58. We share unique updates with them and just try to create a sense, I think, of unity around all of us to say, hey, we're doing something together. And so we just invite people. If you've been impacted by this, join the team, Join the team and be a part of what we're doing next. Because we feel like we're just on the front end of the kind of things God is calling us to do and we can't do it without a whole bunch of you being a part of it with us.

That's right. And you get a little bit of swag. Just gonna say, alright, if you want to join Team 58 and give financially to Pure Desire, just go to PureDesire.org give. Alright, here is part two of our conversation with Jeff and Beth McCord on the Enneagram and recovery. All right, Jeff, Beth, let's move into another of the triads. If this is the first episode you are listening to, go back the end of last episode, we talked about what triads are a little bit. That center of intelligence is how it was described. So the heart triad, twos, threes and fours. Why would these numbers turn towards sexually addictive behaviors?

Why don't you first give an overview of the heart triad and then we'll apply it to each.

Yeah, so you know, the heart triad, they're going to. Well, they're in the heart triad, so they're. They're dealing with their emotions and feelings first. Whereas we, the last podcast we talked about the gut center, they really are operating from this gut instinct. Whether they're an eight and it's just instantaneously or it's the internal critic from the Type one that's pretty instinctual too. Or the nine who's like, I'm going to suppress all this. They're still Dealing it from, with the gut instinct. Now the, the heart triad, they're really in that feeling center now. The twos, they are operating. Oh, and they struggle with the emotion of shame. And what they're desiring is significance. And like this identity of being having worth and value. So the type 2, in order to get away from the shame and have this value in others, the type twos have this superpower of knowing other people's feelings and needs. I mean it's just uncanny. I mean a lot of us can, you know, kind of gauge okay, something's up or what's going on. It's. That's not what we're talking about. They'll walk in a room and they feel other people's feelings and they know people's needs and they literally move in and try to help. It could be advice, it could be an actual physical, you know, some sort of service or help or support. Because they fear being rejected. They fear not having that significance. And so for them, if they sense this need and they don't move in on it and you see that you're going to, they fear you're going to think they're selfish and then reject them, which is their greatest fear is rejection.

So for the type 2 and conversations that I've had with twos, oftentimes their unwanted behaviors are around this idea of fearing that they're not loved that justifies self harming behaviors. And so twos I've noticed, like when it comes to pornography, it's. They're looking at images where they're being taken care of that's not by their initiative. Or if they have unwanted eating patterns, they justify it like I deserve this. I, no one else. I've been helping people all day long. This is my way of escaping and taking the almost baptize it under self care. But it's actually more like self harm because it's tied to this core message that I am unlovable and that people are going to reject me. I think in the first episode we discussed this idea that some of these behaviors, what they promise is the yes, they're not going to reject you. Someone on a screen is not going to. And so it can be Twos are susceptible to that because they don't want to feel this potential that this truth about them is that is true that they are rejected and unlovable.

Well, and the core longing for the two, I think this is really important. We did this with the eight signs and ones. Their core longing is to hear you are loved and wanted for exactly who you are, you don't have to serve or do anything for others. And that if we can see that, like we were talking about the broken cisterns the last time, well, I need this longing fulfilled. So I'm going to go do this myself. Well, I'm going to, like you said, look at pornography or do something that hopefully the message I'll receive back is I'm loved for just being me. Now we know that those are broken cisterns. It's never going to give them what they long for. But if they can turn to Jesus Christ, of course, Jesus is unconditional love. There's no condition. The two twos don't have to do anything. They don't have to serve or support in any way. He comes to them, he serves them, he loves them right where they're at. He never rejects them. And that's so important for the twos to really realize and to sit with.

And this is going to be true for all of the heart triad types is that the behavior not only are is this secret part of their life reinforcing the live just by participating in it, but. But the trap becomes if they admit that this is a part of their life, they're going to have to face rejection. So it's this self feeding cycle of isolation and shame that continues to reinforce these unwanted behaviors. And this is true of twos, threes and fours.

Yeah. And so then if we get in, do you want to stick with the twos? Do you want to move on to the threes?

Nick wants the threes.

Okay, yeah, two threes and fours. Let's do it all. Let's do it.

All right, so the type threes, they're the admirable achievers and they struggle with the shame of not being valued enough that they don't have the status or the image that others are going to value them. And so for them, even though they're in the feeling triad, what the threes do is they actually push their feelings and their true identity aside because they think it gets in their ways of achieving their goals and their status. So actually out of the three of these, the threes access their feelings least doesn't mean they don't have them, but they're accessing them the least because they think it's going to get in the way.

That's right. And because the three can become so disassociated from their heart, they're actually almost acting blindly in certain ways, not recognizing how their unwanted behavior is addressing felt needs in their life. But the pressure in order to alleviate the intensity that they carry in their bodies and in their minds, to always be kind of this chameleon to becoming successful in every person's eyes, they're going to retreat to places where they can find acceptance without performance, right?

Yeah. And so for the type 3, their core longing is to hear you are loved, perceived simply being you. You don't have to achieve, you don't have to have all these accomplishments, you don't have to have a certain image, just you.

And it's interesting to think for many threes they suffer a lot and this, this would be true for all types but their own self contempt when it relates to failure, that they don't want to experience that part of their heart or to admit that how their abilities, their energy, their ideas, their bodies can't come through for them and will need to find a way to escape from the contempt. I'd be curious, Nick, if you wouldn't mind sharing, how does some of this land on you?

It all sounds very familiar. The idea of being on the one hand very emotional but in many ways trying to deny that or ignore it because it feels like it gets in the way. And so then for myself leading into struggles or challenges because I am just kind of numb from my feelings and emotions and just trying to escape to a place where I don't have to be on or you know, perceived as successful. And you know, for me that dynamic of feeling like on the one hand I'm a very people oriented person and I'm energized by that but at the same time often feeling the desire to escape and run away from it and just isolate. And I think it's that idea you're talking about of trying to disconnect from the heart because it's getting in my way. And yet in that disconnection is sometimes the very root of the things I struggle with.

How did you experience the self defeating cycle of I want to look like the person who has it together but there's a secret part to my life where I don't have it together that only reinforces the shame cycle.

Yeah. I think for me, and I think for a lot of threes that is, that's almost just a natural way of doing life of like. Well, when I'm, you know, and I think growing up in school and can sometimes school has a way of like that's the most notable. Like I'm going to be the a student and the athlete and I do everything well. And yeah the fact that there's other hidden, secretive Stuff in my life, well, of course I wouldn't share that. And of course that would be a secret. And I think then I just carry that into adulthood and into life. Like, well, of course when I'm around my wife even or around people, like I'm going to be one way because that's who they need me to be, that's who they want me to be. And it's just natural to kind of have another part of you that isn't really addressed. So I think that would be my experience of that can almost just become a native language of, well, this is just how I've learned to navigate life.

I mean, isn't it interesting? And we've not addressed the childhood roles that each of the types play, but there's almost this reinforcing thought. Like parents of type threes just think they're the golden child. Like they've got it together, they take care of themselves. But type 3 kids struggle with life and the pressure and so. But already there's this. Yeah, this is just how I live my life. But no one else really cares or wants to engage with it. They only want to know me whenever I'm successful. And that reinforces that isolated life.

Yeah, yeah. It becomes that double edged sword of on the one hand I can appear very competent and like I have it together and like feeling that way. And so people don't perceive that, oh, maybe they need help or they want to be asked about how they're doing. But then on the other hand that, that self shame of like, why does it seem like no one cares about me? Why does it seem like no one really wants to help me? You know? So the very thing that you're projecting that I'm okay becomes then in your darker shadow places, the thing that's like, why does no one seem to care if I'm okay or not?

And I would say because I've worked with Nick now for four years and we're. And we've been doing this podcast for a long time. I've had tons of conversations that I would say that I hear that often from you. If we sit in and meet, like we had a meeting today, like just a normal meeting and I ask like, how's it going? How are you doing? There have been days later that you'll text me and say that's meaningful to you. And for me, this is what I love about the Enneagram is when I better understand the filter that Nick has, I can relate better, I can minister better, I can encourage better. Sure I could weaponize that if I get, you know, ticked off at him.

Right.

I can say some, you know, some mean things, but at the same time, this can be such a great tool to come alongside people if you know where they're coming from.

Right, yes.

Well, and.

And Nick, if you can speak to. So the core longing like we talked about, to hear your love for simply being you. How has your relationship with Jesus helped in your own recovery?

I love that they're asking us questions. This is awesome.

Yeah, I'm kind of getting put on the spot.

This is. We're auditioning to be on your platform, so.

Yes.

Yeah, I think that's what was formative about, like, you know, in my story, it was 11 years ago that I walked through pure desires counseling process and really engaged with a lot of these deeper places in my life that I knew were there but had never really had language, how to get into. And I think recognizing how much I had taken that performance, achieving mindset into my relationship with God and. And with Christ, that that's like what he needed from me and to kind of rediscover or maybe discover for the first time that just me by myself alone in front of God was enough and that I was cherished and valued and, you know, a lot of different exercises along the way that kind of helped create that. I think that is the source of healing. And even today, 11 years later, that's the thing I most have to work at keeping sight of. Like, before Christ, he made me and knows me and I'm enough who I am, that when that becomes the grid through which I see life, man, it changes how I feel about everything. But when I kind of move away from that or lose sight of it, it's easy to get back into. I have to be good enough to be loved, and otherwise I won't be. So it's kind of that directional choice between, well, which am I going to lean into today? Because I think both can be a reality, depending where I choose to put my focus.

And that's a great reminder, Nick, that just because we experience the truth of the gospel in our recovery in one moment doesn't mean that there aren't going to be future situations where we're going to need a new and fresh outpouring of the Spirit, and we need not be ashamed of that. Like, it's. I love how Tim Keller talks about the gospel, that the gospel, it isn't like stair steps where you move step A, step B, step C, and you move beyond your need for the gospel. The gospel is at the core of who we are and to experience the truth of what Jesus thinks of us. For the three you are delighted in, you are enjoyed, you are desired not for the image or the mask, but for you as a person is, you will continue to come undone realizing how significant and true that statement really is. And the great news is, is that Jesus knows that we are so prone to forget, and that's why he gave us the Lord's Supper. Like as you do this, you proclaim the Lord's death again and again and again because we need it so often.

Well, and I think, you know the other thing that we talked about in the last podcast, how we use the enneagram to see the levels of alignment, meaning are we aligned, misaligned, or out of alignment with the truth of the gospel? And a lot of times we as humans naturally just look at the misalignment or out of alignment, like, I'm so terrible. I'm so horrible. That's just kind of what we do naturally. But what we want is to become more aligned with Jesus. But here's the greatest thing, is that we're going to have moments where he brings us back into alignment and the overflow of our heart. But even in the moments when we're misaligned or out of alignment, we are still his cherished, beloved child. Not because of what we have done, but because of what he has done on our behalf and bestowed to us. And so no matter where we are in the levels of alignment, we can come back and praise him, and sit at his feet and in his lap and be cherished.

Yeah. Yeah. So good. I. Well, I really appreciate the spotlight of my number. We're still on question. We're still on question one.

Forget about four. Better go into the four.

Don't forget about fours. They will not take it.

Well, let's talk about fours, Bethy.

Yeah. So the fours, they're going to struggle with shame in a different way. So fours feel all of their emotions, and then some they go in the deep waters of emotions. It's very clear to them what they're feeling. But they also struggle with envy that there's something lacking, something missing, something fundamentally wrong with them. But others possess all of these qualities that they think that they're lacking and. But what they long for is the significance of being unique and special and different. If everyone sees this unique part of me, even though I'm defective over here, well, then I'll be loved. And that's really kind of what they're aiming for and what they're Going for.

So fours, when it comes to unwanted behaviors, are wrestling with this kind of the attention getting, but yet self sabotaging desire. So the idea is that if there's something flawed in me, then I may be more inclined to choose behaviors to prove that there's something flawed in me. But at the same time, the way that some behaviors can work is that they're also being seen. Fours live under the assumption that people can't understand them or address their deep needs. And so we'll look for relationships or habits that that will reinforce to them that their needs are not a problem, that their uniqueness is not too unique. And so there's this relationship with self loathing and self pity that actually an addiction can serve for them.

Well, you know, the core longing of the four is to hear you are loved and seen for exactly who you are. Special and unique, which is why they're going towards whatever specific things they're trying to fill themselves up with. But here's the greatest news, is that Christ is the creator of them. You know, he create, knitted them in their mother's womb and knew exactly what he was doing. And not only did he create them, so he knows them, he understands them better than even the four understands themselves. Which of course means so much to them because when they try to explain to others their deepest longings and who they are, they really feel misunderstood and they don't belong. And to know that Jesus understands them and loves them and cherishes them in their uniqueness means so much to their heart.

Well, the person that comes to mind for me as I think about fours and addiction is the artist Jackson Pollock. Pollock was known for being able to capture the artistic experience on a canvas. So it wasn't about the image itself. It was more the canvas represented what was happening in his image, interior world. Well, for Pollock, the beauty of his. That in his. For seasons of his life were that he was most prolific and influential when he was sober because he was a. An alcoholic. And so for. But the sixes think that feeling that fours. Yeah, that's right. Sorry, yeah. Getting into sixes.

We'll get there.

We'll get there. Don't you ask me questions about my Sixness, but. Or as sometimes we slip into my sickness. That's right. You got that?

There's a wound there somewhere, Jeff. Let's unpack that.

Yeah, that's right.

One of our other sixes on our team calls it 6 Enos.

That's right. There you go.

Better headspace.

Yeah. But for fours like to experience emotional Sobriety. When they're unhealthy, they think that. That if they're sober minded, that that's not healthiness. They want to feel all of the emotions versus this equanimity, this balance of emotions. So sometimes addiction can serve this unhealthy part of their hearts to say disorganized internally or overly emotional.

Well, and I want to make so the healthiest place for four to be is equanimity, which means emotional balance. And a lot of times what people think when they hear that word, they think, oh, get rid of emotions or.

Stoicism or something like that, or like tamp them down.

And that's not what we're talking about. If we look at Jesus as our example for all the types. But even the example of Jesus, he wept. He. He cried so much in Gethsemane, he was sweating blood. You know, I mean, he has so many ranges of emotions, so. But he was always in alignment with what his father wanted. So even though there were a lot of emotions that Jesus demonstrated from highs to lows, he was always in alignment. I think that's what we're trying to capture for the type four.

That's right.

Yeah. So great. I mean, we're really getting deep into the heart triad. Now talk kind of the flip side. For those that are the two threes and fours, if they're on the betrayal side of things, how will they tend to experience that trauma in relation to their enneagram number?

Yeah, well, once again, remember that we will experience things through the lens of our enneagram type. And that betrayal confirms to us, gives evidence for what we already believe about ourselves. So twos will immediately think that they're unlovable, that all of their attempts to fix their spouse were futile and it was their fault, and will prove that they are unlovable and rejected. For the three, there's part of the betrayal can actually harm the image that they have as a family, that they're scared to death to admit to others that their family doesn't have it together. And so will in some ways seek to hide what's actually happening. But they can also take responsibility upon themselves that it was their fault because they weren't a good enough spouse. And the four, it reinforces that they were not enough, that they are in fact flawed or broken internally. And if they weren't, then their spouse wouldn't have participated. Do you have any other. That's great.

No, it's really spot on.

So then, what does healing and recovery look like for this heart triad? These Feelers, what does that journey look like? What are maybe some of those. Those pieces are elements that they need to experience in order to develop health.

Yes. Please fix us so we can be more successful.

That's great. Yeah, yeah. I was, I was great at addiction and recovery. Nailed it. Nailed it.

A student all the way.

There are awards hanging on. Yeah. On everyone's. Okay, keep going.

Yeah. So you know, for the type 2 really the invitation is towards self care. They experiencing self care as that it's selfish, but it's not. But their ability to take care of themselves, not overly extend twos are notorious that whenever they do get overextended they actually get sick and are more prone to stuff like drinking, eating, shopping or just kind of self oriented behaviors or.

On the the spousal side, codependency.

That's right.

But speak to Jesus being a model of self care, you know, like how he took not only good care of himself but then what he called them at the washing of the feet. Kind of that analogy.

Yeah. You know, it is provocative for the two that in similar ways that when Peter or when Jesus was washing Peter's feet, Peter says hey, don't wash my feet, I'll wash yours. And Jesus says no Peter, if I don't wash your feet, you have nothing to do with me. Mark 10 tells us that for the Son of man came to serve, not to be served. And so that's provocative for the two that, that Jesus doesn't need them, but he profoundly loves and gives himself to them.

Yeah.

And so when, when A A2's heart comes to rest with that. Well, some of these unwanted behaviors become less sticky because their hearts already full and are there have adopted a pattern of life that's more life giving for themselves so that they can give life to other people.

Well, and if the type 2, if you guys are around a type 2, you'll see that they give, give, give. And it's not always actual gifts or service. It could be advice, it could just be their time. It could be their mental kind of gymnastics on what your needs are, the relationship. And we're really trying to get the twos to exemplify Christ and how Christ would get up and go away and take care of himself and latches would be like. But it's selfish because there's so many needs. There are so many needs. But that's God's role. He is sovereign, he is powerful. He knows who needs what and how he can make that happen. But if you are running on empty and fumes, you are going to burnout, and that's not going to help anyone. So go fill back up with Jesus and his love and care for you so that you can extend the appropriate amount of love and care for others.

And, you know, if you're. I can just imagine in my mind for a two, this will be an example. But. So I don't want to say this stereotypically, but I could see a 2 not going to a meeting because they've got to go help someone else, or a 2 not attending a support group for betrayed spouses because they've got to go take care of their addict spouse, where their twoness actually gets in the way of their own health. For the type three, I think the biggest thing for the type three is honesty. And it's honesty about their glory and the gift that they are. So not the mask, not the image, not the glittering image, but honest about who God has made them to be. Because threes, matter of fact, we talk about this and when we talk about conflict and type threes, threes can be great mediators because they can see an efficient, clear path of how to restore things. What threes don't recognize is that failure is actually the opportunity for them to shine. It's not something to be avoided. And so for a three to come into honest engagement with who they are as a person actually becomes a tremendous gift for them because it thwarts all these other coping behaviors, but it also is the place where God intends to meet them. You know, there's these provocative passages in the bible that says, you've done all these great things for me, but I never knew you. And so to be known by God is to experience the life that he intends to give us.

Yeah. And I think, you know, for threes, authenticity, genuineness, that's so important for the threes to go into that direction. And that can be very scary because for the threes, when they. They lived at this Persona level for so long, it's just habit. It's just what they do that when they start to go inward and go deeper into their emotions, it almost feels like a free fall into darkness. And we all know what that kind of like that image of free falling and like backwards, you want to grab onto something or you want to get back to what you thought feels more comfortable. And so we want to be very tender to our type threes as they go inward and they start to feel their emotions and trying to get to that place of genuine authenticity that it's going to be really hard. It's going to Take time, but beauty will come out of that. And then their true reflection, their true nature will really shine forth. And it will just be. It shines so much more brightly than what they're thinking. They're thinking that this glittering image is what everyone wants. But what people really long and desire is who they truly are.

And then lastly for the four is to embrace reality. Four spend a lot of time using their amazing gift. And it is a gift, and that is their imagination. But they use it to fantasize what they believe other people think about them, which reinforces the behavior that they justify the unwanted behaviors in their lives. And it just proves, like, see, I'm so different. No one can understand me. Therefore, it justifies my. I'm defective. See, I'm defective because I do these things versus taking regular account of what is real versus what is imagined. And so sometimes we've heard from other type fours that during their quiet times, they can use that to fantasize about other conversations that may or may not happen. We've known some fours that can open books to certain chapters, even paragraphs, in order to provoke weeping or crying. So fours will have this inclination to live out the fantasy versus to stay in reality. And what has actually transpired. Then it subverts all of these other tendencies. And the same is true for the betrayed spouse to stay in reality. That these problems are not your problems. As my daughter sometimes says to me, not my circus, not my monkeys, that that's dad's issues. Those are not my issues.

Yeah. And I think it's so important for them to recognize as they continue to be in reality, what they're going to find is that equanimity, that emotional balance, because they're in reality, but they're still going to have emotions. And we want to see these emotions. I talk about how fours are like the golden threads in a tapestry. You know, like a beautiful oriental rug. Us nines. And this isn't a put down for nines, because every night out there is going to be like, I totally understand. We're like that beige background color. And the fours are those golden threads. And what we're wanting is for the fours to recognize you're already created. All of us are created with this unique ability to bring this tapestry together, this wholeness to reflect Christ and what he has created. So we want for us to know you have everything that you need right there. You don't have to become unique. You don't have to become special. You are as you sit where you are at.

Well, all right. This has been great, but unfortunately we have run out of time for the last.

Get out of here with that garbage. We are going to the last triad.

I know. Trevor is so excited. We are finally there. To the head triad, Fives, sixes and sevens. So let's dive into those numbers. Why might they battle with sexually addictive behaviors?

Yeah. So the.

And what is that? Talk a little bit about what is the head triad.

Yes.

Yes.

So the five, six and sevens are in the head triad. Again, this means that they start in any given situation, usually from the head center. They're thinking and then they might move to feelings or gut, but that's usually where they're starting from. Now, their emotional struggle is anxiety and their desire is security. But they do it differently, each of them. So the type fives are anxious that they're not capable, knowledgeable and competent enough. Or they're also anxious that all their energy reserves are going to be depleted with too much interaction with others. They are looking for security. And for the fives, they believe that if they gain more knowledge and insights or if they can recharge their internal batteries by being alone and processing their thoughts and feelings more and more and more, then they'll be safe and secure.

That's right. And for the five, they live with a heart, a message that their needs are a problem. They will isolate themselves to be less dependent upon others. Oftentimes, fives as kids, there may have been something going on in the home that they, from their perspective, needed to take care of themselves. That's where rather than entrusting to others to care for them or requesting that, they will seek unwanted habits in order to address their needs versus being in relationship with real people.

Yeah. And so for the five they're looking to hear, their core longing is to hear your needs are not a problem. And so you can imagine they're very independent, autonomous. They're wanting to learn and. But they struggle with feeling. They have enough to go to, so they're really going to probably, let's say in these addictive patterns, they're looking for something that they know and they feel capable and competent in and whatever is filling that that will help them to more secure. They also will go to a place that whether directly or not directly, they'll be saying to them that your needs are not a problem because it's really hard for a five to say what they need. And usually they'll just go do it. They'll just go find it. Or they'll minimize their needs and avoid it completely.

Well, and you can Pick up on certain themes for the type 5. So if a 5's desire is to feel competent and in control of their life, well, life does not promise that. And so for the type 5, sure, porn seems to be a great fantasy to live in because things are under control, there's predictability there, and their needs are being taken care of. The other thing to also remember about a type 5 is that they can be a little disassociated between their head and their body. Like they live in their brain all the time. And there are certain ways that particularly like with masturbation, where it pulls us into our body. And so there are some physiological things that particularly sexual habits can actually be reinforced because they're trying to get in tune with their bodies.

Yeah. And so we really recommend that fives get out and like, like physically walk or do some sort of exercise because really that helps them to not just stay in their brain. They feel like their, their brain is their fortress, their castle, and to connect their head, their heart and their gut together.

Well, man, you just saying that. Just so many points coming up. Because fives can think that their addiction isn't a relational problem because they're so head or like, this doesn't affect my spouse because they're so compartmentalized, they don't realize what this might mean relationally. But we're going to type six.

Yeah. Well, but let me just go back one quick second. So when they look at Jesus being that spring of living water, what they're going to recognize is that he owns everything. He created everything. Your needs are not a problem. It is a delight for him to lavish onto you all that you truly need. And that is going to. They are going to have to wrestle with that conceptually and then at a heart level. But he really has all your needs cared for. Ok, so type sixes again, anxiety, insecurity are what they are looking for. Are they're looking, avoiding anxiety, looking for security. And the anxiety for the sixes is. Remember we talked about type ones as having a loud inner critic. Sixes have an inner committee. And this inner committee is chiming in with all the different scenarios that could happen. Well, what about this? Well, what about that could be this? Did you think about that? And so all of a sudden you have self doubt. You don't have assurances, you have insecurity. And so for the six, they're wanting security. So what they're doing is they're pulling, planning and preparing for any kind of outcome.

So, you know, a couple of things just in my own personal experience being a type 6. It wasn't until later in my career, probably would have been in my late 30s, and I had a friend who became an eating disorder therapist. And we were talking about my relationship to food and he just happened to mention that. Hey, Jeff, have you ever thought that feeling full actually calms this kind of. I forgot what nerves he calls it right at the center of our torsos, that it could be actually calming your body down and anxiety by eating food. And I'm like, holy crap. Although I didn't say crap because it was so insightful. I'm like, I thought that was hunger. And you're saying that's my anxiety. So literally addictions serve to calm and shut the system down. It almost serves like a firefighter to calm everything down. Because I've shared with Beth the metaphor. It's. My mind is almost like the House of Commons or parliament in Europe. One guy stands up to make a speech and then everybody just starts yelling and screaming at him and sounds miserable.

So said the seven.

Yeah, that's right. And I'm like, man, I'm just trying to make a basic decision. And then all of a sudden these parts of me, but what about this? But what about this? You could do this, but that mean this. And you just to get totally immobilized versus and then. So then you insert food or you insert pornography and it shuts the system down. And so it becomes a coping mechanism to deal with the unanswerable questions in life.

Well, and what the Sixes long to hear is you are safe and secure. So they're using these addict, addictive measures to get that message. But of course it only makes it worse. But when we look to Jesus, we are safe and secure. Now, that doesn't mean here on this planet, because we know that things are pretty chaotic and one day we will die, but we do know that eternity has been won and completed by Jesus Christ and that we are safe and secure in our relationship with him and his love for us.

You know, that makes me think, sweetie, you know, the idea of being safe and secure and then thinking about the predictability that pornography provides that that something is going to happen. And so it feels safer. There's no opportunity, rejection or insecurity in any of that. Trying to think, what else for the six? Or do you have any other thoughts about six?

Okay, move on to sevens. The last but not least, the enthusiastic optimists. So they don't.

They don't have problems.

They don't.

They have opportunities.

I don't Know if you guys have ever met a seven before. Yeah, but I've got plenty of them.

Yeah, well, and we, we've been around a lot of sevens and they'll say, well, and this is so different between sevens and threes, if someone's stuck between the two threes, there is absolute failures. And for sevens, it's like, no, it's just a new opportunity to do something different.

Like we'll just pivot the reframe. It's all about the reframe.

Oh, man, they're so talented at reframing, right? I mean, even God looks at them like, I've never thought of it that way.

So the anxiety of the seven is that they'll never feel fully satisfied and content. So when I try to describe seven's internal world, it's like having a bucket that has holes at the bottom and they're seeing all these amazing experiences and stimulation and they're trying to fill up this bucket and they're going, going and doing and doing. But then they look down and it's like, wait, where did that all go? They got to go do more and more and more. And so that is where the anxiety comes in. Like, I can't sit still. I can't be bored. I've got to, you know, I mean, think about all of us. If we have real starvation, hunger pains, we are going to do whatever it takes to get food and to fill ourselves up. And so really it is kind of like sevens are like little kids that are starving and the world has all of this cotton candy, right? And they're going and they're eating all this cotton candy. It tastes amazing, but it doesn't do any good. Right. And so that's the broken cisterns. And it could be a wide range of different ways. You know, even my dad is a seven. And I would say one of his ways of fulfilling this longing he has is actually giving money to Christian organizations. But he would over give because it was kind of like a positive hit inside, right?

Totally.

And then he would give more and more and more and it was like, dad, this is detrimental to your all. But it's great that you want to be giving. But.

Right, can I get his email and then he can just send him to PureDesire.org give.

And like you said, you had said that you thought you were two. There is a subtype of seven that looks very 2ish. And that's what my dad is.

Yeah. The illustration Beth gives is that the seven that looks like a two will bring a cake. To a party and let everybody eat and then eat the rest at home in private. And so it looks very 2ish.

But, but their security, what they're, what they're looking for is that they will be fully competent or they'll feel content and satisfied inside and happy. And that's what they're really looking for. So that's why they're always thinking in the future, what can, what they'll have plans A through Z because if plan A doesn't work, they're going to have a backup plan because they cannot stand the thought of not having something positive to go to next.

And for the seven, you know, in some ways fantasy plays a role because no matter what relationship it may be, it's never going to be the most fun or the most at rest relationship. And so they're going to have a need, a way in order to deal with these negative emotions. Sometimes it can come out of boredom where there's not enough stimulus that's happening in their life and so they want it to continue to engage. And there's this other part of the type 7 that, you know, as kids, sevens just recall being told no a lot. And so, yeah, we do. So there's, there's a sense to where, you know, whether it be porn or eating, like there's a yes, right? It's an automatic yes. You can have what you want.

One thing about sevens as being how we were as kids with Christmas, right? Like, we start like celebrating or anticipating Christmas like a month before and every day is a new day of like thinking of all the, the magic that's going to happen and the presents we're going to open and the feelings that we're going to have. And then we get to Christmas Day and it's like, that was it like. So it's kind of disappointing when we build it up and then it's like over so fast. And that's what sevens feel like almost all the time. So they have all this anticipation of that next thing. So like right now you might be thinking of what you're going to be doing tonight, this weekend. You're so excited. And it's hard for sevens to be in the present moment because the present moment, it's kind of like that Christmas Day, it's not quite as good as they imagined it. Does that feel true?

Oh, gosh, absolutely. I mean, I think I know you guys know Dave Barnes, but I heard Dave Barnes, the musician on Ian Cron's podcast talk about it that he looks so. That he looks forward to a moment so much that then when that moment gets there, he can't actually enjoy it because he's already moved on. And I'll tell you, that is a podcast I've listened to probably 10 or 15 times just because it's finally someone speaking my language as he's a seven. But I literally tattooed the word presence on my wrist so that I can remember to be grounded in the moment. And it's funny, in my exploration of this, I found that pornography. I had a pornography addiction for about 15 years. And what that taught me was to chase these high moments. And there was that zero rejection. And what I've realized is that transferred over into my marriage, transferred over into my parenting, where I anticipate or look for these, like, mountaintop amazing experiences. And then if I'm disappointed, it's somehow there's something wrong with me or I'm not a good enough parent. And so what I end up doing is I actually end up not looking for those mundane and really meaningful experiences with my wife, with my friends, with my kids. And what I do is I miss out on that opportunity for that connection that really is creating the relationships that I want. But because of the way my mind works and the way addiction kind of rewired it, I'm looking for those mountaintops. And if I can't have them, I'm just not going to explore it.

I hear a lot from sevens like, there. There's this underlying fear that they'll never be content. That they almost feel like that the insatiable desire for life inside of them will never be satisfied. And it's almost scary to them that I don't know if I can control this. But Jesus offer was that I have come to give you life and life to the full. And it, as with all things you know, do not fear, for I am with you. Is that not only the is a seven invited to living life in the moment, but that Jesus promises his presence above all things, that he will never leave nor forsake.

And I think, you know, one thing that I've watched with my dad being a seven and growing in health over the years actually comes from how he eats, you know, which is so funny because, you know, the gluttony of the seven. My dad is a very slow eater. And I remember as a kid he would say, I am savoring my food and when I am coaching, type sevens that, like, if you are going to get another tattoo, maybe on the other wrist, get the word savor because you want to savor the presence, the present Moment.

Yeah.

And because it's not just being in the present moment, it's savoring it. And what savoring really means is to be, like, fully understanding what is there right now, the blessings that God has given you in the moment. So seeing it, enjoying it, and actually allowing this abundant joy to come and flow forth. So savor, I think, is a huge word. But you can see why addiction can be so hard for the Seven, because it really does give you a hit of excitement, stimulation, instantaneous floods, the system.

Yep.

Yeah. All right, we got to keep going. And I just real quick, like, my wife's going to listen to this babe. Beth McCord just told me to get another tattoo. Okay. Don't be mad. Okay. So how do five, six and sevens? And again, this is something where they experience something that's so hurt, hurtful and betrayal, but they're so stuck in their head. So how does this head triad interact with experience? Betrayal, trauma.

That's right. So with type Fives, a few thoughts come to mind. Number one, it proves to the type 5 that they may not recognize it as hurtful, so they will intellectualize the betrayal and disassociate from their emotions. Secondly, there's some thought that it can encourage further isolation, that people can't be trusted. Or in their efforts to intellectualize, start researching and treating addiction in the abstract versus in terms of relationship. They're reinforcing their existing pattern of relating to a fallen world. They're just now doing it because their spouse has betrayed them. For the Type Sixes, it is. Oh, man, I'm feeling a little bit. And losing words. Dang it. Caught in the mum.

You're caught in the Sixness.

That's right.

Your 60s.

It turns the six in on themselves. Like, what did I do wrong or could have done in order to prevent this?

I knew I couldn't turn trust myself.

I knew. Yeah, that's right. And I knew I couldn't trust myself. I knew I couldn't trust this relationship. And so it can totally not disorganize the type 6. But what will come out potentially is it can come out in two ways. One, to retreat from it and to immediately discount someone and move away because they can't be trusted. Or the type 6 can get overly involved in trying to fix the situation and fix themselves that are further perpetuating this unhealthy habit.

Well, being loyal and committed, responsible, faithful, that is like paramount words for the type 6. So I can see how they would double down on those efforts.

And they will make it the issue that they'll think about and because they're thinking about the flywheels going, they're going to think about the family, they're going to think about the community that they're in. They're going to try to carry the burden of someone else's mistake in all of their life. And then for the type sevens, you know, one of the initial temptations is potentially reframing that. They're going to reframe it versus embrace the real difficulty of what has just happened and not be grounded in the reality. Like, this is going to take a while for this to be repaired. What other thoughts do you have about five, six, and seven?

Actually, I think that was all great. I was just going to add a little bit on the 7 is the reframing. I know watching some sevens out there. And when a family member is in crisis, whatever crisis that is, a lot of times they will reframe it, like, oh, it's going to be okay, or they're getting help or we're doing something about it or whatever. We're having people pray or we're going to meet with someone, whatever it is that they can kind of hang a little bit of their hat on so that they don't have to be stuck in emotional pain. So you're going to. You're going to see a lot of reframing going on.

Well, and don't Forget about a 7. This is usually surprising for those of us who have relationships with sevens. Sevens when they're unhealthy, move to the unhealthy side of type one. Sevens can become very judgmental and perfectionistic. And so they can literally the good go, you know, everything's going to be fine. 7 all the sudden becomes very angry and critical towards the addicted spouse or.

Anyone in their past.

Gosh, yes, it's helpful thinking about my own story. You know, my wife is a six, and as we walk through, you know, our years of my addiction, I remember her saying at one point like that she felt like she was thinking about the addiction, the pain, how to fix it, how to fix me, like every minute of every day. And to me, it was so confusing because as a three, it was much more like, deal with it, fix it, move on, get back to the success path. And to understand kind of that came out of her, her fears, that came out of her desire for stability and interacting with how do I stay loyal? And it just was insightful. And I think for all of our listeners, like what we're trying to see not only in ourselves but if we're married, like, what is the impact in our spouse's life, whether they're the struggler or the betrayed spouse? Because if we can understand a little bit of where they're at and what they're walking through, we might understand ways that we can be, in a healthy way, a part of their recovery and that, you know, leading into that, as we did with all the triads, like, what does it look like for the head triad to move towards greater health in their life, whether they're addicted on that side or the betrayed spouse?

For the Type Fives, the cave that they're going to need to enter into is their own heart and emotions. There's no book that can totally help you to feel and understand your feelings. And for Type five, even to recognize that they have feelings can be a tremendous effort. And so fives need to wake up to their hearts that they have needs, and those needs are they're allowed, and that God has given them people in order to care for them, and that.

God can and will care for them. But also with the spouse that's being betrayed, that God will care and take care of the needs of your spouse, that you don't have to have all of the knowledge and all of the research that he is there to help you and to help your spouse.

I think it's 2nd Corinthians 1 that says God has become or he has become for us wisdom from God that is our holiness, righteousness and redemption. That the more frenetically you try to figure this out and intellectualize it is actually a fleshly desire to not trust Christ in this situation because He Himself, relationship with him is wisdom from God. And all that we need for the type 6, I think for me is recognizing that Jesus enters into my chaos and is not overwhelmed by it or ashamed of it, but rather he welcomes me to come and sit down and to rest. For me, the Last Supper, the image that plays in my mind is the Apostle John, the disciple whom Jesus loved. It's the way that John writes about it was laying on to Jesus like his heart was at rest. So with this situation, I know that whenever I am the most frenetic in my mind means that I am trying to deal with the situation according to my abilities. And what the various parts of my heart need is my kind, loving Father's attention, that he will take care of this, that in this world there will be difficulties of various kinds. And I can't prevent that, but to take heart, because he has overcome the world.

And usually sixes don't trust themselves. That's why they look for guidance outside themselves. But God has given Sixes amazing discernment. And so we want them to not rely on themselves, but rely on the Holy Spirit in who is giving you this understanding and to move forward with courage.

You know, I find in my own recovery process, you know, there's a phrase that's used like trust the process. And for the type 6, there's a sense to where you have to trust the process. It's not going to go fast, it's not going to go at the speed that you want with the answers that you want when you want them, but to trust that, to make good decisions for your interior world each and every day and for the seven. And that is coming to the recognition about this dynamic of reframing that Sevens have in them, this capacity to bring joy and light into very dark, very somber situations. But that's not the frenetic stuff of always seeking activity and experience. And so for the seven to actually see that there is life in the ordinary and that that ordinary is. Is a part of the regular rhythm of creation and that there is a rhythm that they can attune their heart to that's not related to the frenetic activity of experience, to experience so that their hearts are at rest and they're more present with their own hearts and needs as well as the hearts and needs of those around them.

And then as a 7 is present in the moment and observing all that has been given to them and then savoring it, is that is what's plugging up the holes in that bucket that's inside them. And then as they fill with Jesus Christ the spring of living water, they will actually feel satisfied and content. But again, it had all that we've ever said today in this podcast, last podcast, it all comes back to the gospel. Christ has satisfied our core longing. And are we going to move towards the broken cisterns or are we going to move back to the spring of living water?

Yeah, guys, this has been so good. And man, I could just go on and on. This is so good. But I just want you guys to have an opportunity to just say, what encouragement would you give to people with incorporating the enneagram in the recovery and the healing kit that they carry with them as they go through their journey? Just what encouragement would you give them?

You know, a couple things that come to mind. Number one, the Enneagram doesn't fix anything. It is insightful, but it's not going to take away the pain that you're experiencing, whether it be in your recovery or in repair of your relationship. But here's a few things that it can provide. Number one, vocabulary. It's going to help you to understand your own heart and your spouse's heart in a new way that you never could have anticipated before. Number two, compassion and kindness. You know, it's interesting that whenever Paul had an opportunity to talk about what is it that leads us to repentance, he could have said, it's God's judgment that leads us to repentance. But what he actually instructed, he said, it's God's kindness that leads us to repentance. And kindness is translated also in the New Testament as goodness. So I know that despite all of the crazy and chaos that happens when addiction is discovered, or the process of recovery, or the process of repairing relationship, or even dealing with the breakup of a relationship because of an addiction, that God is kind of. And that God is good. And that despite what you may be experiencing, he desires good for you. And that is going to be part of the path of restoration. That sometimes goodness is going to mean pursuing your own health. Despite how your spouse or your situation may be responding to you. It could be putting clearer boundaries on how you're going to relate or deal with things. That is a part of God's goodness. And the enneagram helps us to understand what it is inside us and inside of our spouse that could get in the way of us experiencing God's goodness.

Yeah. The only thing I would add is just that no matter whether you are aligned, misaligned, or out of alignment with the truth of the gospel, when you are in Christ, you are in Christ and His work has been completed. So you are always fully loved and cherished. And so in our addictions or in our moments of recovery, we can always come back to him and rest in who we truly are, which will actually bring the real freedom we seek.

You guys are so awesome. Thank you so much for number one. I mean, just the work and energy it takes to become experts in with a tool that is so helpful not just in addiction and recovery and healing, but just in maturity, in the formation of who we are in Christ. And so just thank you, number one, for being with us today, spending time with us. We got you for a long block of time. We appreciate that and we appreciate the ministry that you guys are doing. So thank you so much.

Yeah, thanks for having us.

Yeah, it was a pleasure.

And wherever you're at on your journey, pure desire is here to help create a road map for your healing. If you or someone you know is impacted by sexual brokenness or betrayal trauma, go to PureDesire.org and let's start the healing journey today. Don't forget to subscribe to the podcast. Each week we put out new content to help you on the road to healing and freedom. And lastly, never stop being healthy.