225 - A Couples Guide To Conquering Betrayal

You're listening to the Pure Desire Podcast. Your safe place to find hope, healing, and freedom from sexual addiction, betrayal, and relationship issues. Hello. Hello. I'm your host, Trevor Windsor, and you're listening to episode 225 of the Pure Desire podcast here. Joining me, as always, is my co host, Nick Stumbo.

Sitius altius fortius.

Is that Latin?

I think so, yes. Do you know what it's from?

No idea.

That is actually the Olympics logo theme. What am I trying to say?

I don't know. This is your intro.

It's their slogan.

Oh, okay.

It means faster, higher, stronger.

There's a Christina Aguilera song I think like that somewhere out there. Okay, so I'm sure you're gonna tie it in to who we had today. We had Dr. Stephanie Carnes on the podcast today. Stephanie is the president of itap. That's the International Institute for Trauma and Addiction Professionals. She's a senior fellow, which you might need to explain what that is to me, for Meadows Behavioral Health Care. She works with addicted clients and their families. The list continues. She's a licensed marriage and family therapist, clinical sex ologist, certified sex addiction therapist, and supervisor. She's authored four books, including the one we're talking about today. Courageous Love.

Yes. Yes. I'm pretty confident that being a senior fellow does not mean you're a dude.

Oh, I was. I was clear on that.

Okay, good. Because she's a wonderful woman. It typically indicates that you're part of a leadership team, a board that has been given a certain rank or status to help guide and direct an organization. And I think within counseling circles.

Got it.

It's a lot more common.

What it means is senior big deal.

Yeah, that's right. That's right. Yeah. This is great having Dr. Carnes on today because she's really leading the organization that we look to for direction in this area of sexual addiction and betrayal, recovery and trauma. And they don't obviously come from that same Christian perspective that we are, but that's what's wonderful about partnering with them, is they're doing this work in the world in a secular field and have really partnered with us to do it in the church and in a ministry way. And so there's a great partnership here. And I think what listeners will get from Stephanie is just how much there's overlap between what maybe they've heard in their group or from a Pure Desire podcast. And to hear Stephanie saying a lot of the same things is really encouraging. And for me, you know, today's episode is like, I think when we're in recovery, whether we're the struggler or the betrayed spouse, we're asking the question, like, how do we get better? How do we improve? How do we move forward? And sometimes it's just that simple idea of how could we get a little bit better? And I was thinking about the Olympics like that, higher, faster, stronger. You know, people have trained their whole lives sometimes just to get one quarter of an inch higher over that high jump bar or, you know, the long jump to be one inch further. And it's like, that's crazy the amount of dedication people put into that. But it's in order to get to that place where there's improvement. And I think in betrayal, trauma, recovery, it can feel like we are working so hard. Are we making progress? Are we getting a little bit better? Because when you see progress, you're like, well, it's worth it. And I think that's what Stephanie Carnes gives us today, is a lot of handholds of what are things we can be focusing on? How are ways we can understand the process we're in? What are those steps we can be taking so that we feel like our relationship is moving higher, faster, stronger from wherever we are currently at? So that's the tie in to Sittius, Altius, Porteous.

Thank you for the explanation. That is helpful. Yes, this is a great episode. Stephanie was awesome. But real quick, a few things. Subscribe to the podcast if you are not already. We're on all the major platforms. Follow us on social media. We also have full episodes up on YouTube for the podcast. And also, Nick, we just want to remind people, if they haven't seen it already, that now we have a new up, updated, improved Seven Pillars of Freedom.

Yes, yes. And it is still the seven Pillars of Freedom. So, like when you see a book.

That'S been new and improved, or 6, it's 7.

It's not a new book. It's not like it's all different. It's the majority of the content that people have been through. But we did, as always, improve some grammatical things, add some clarifying questions. We've put in more direction about like some stuff up front and at the end. So it's new and improved. And probably the biggest addition is adding a video series to it that for every single lesson there is guidance and direction on what to expect in that lesson, what to look for and how to complete your homework. Because that's probably the biggest question we'll get from guys or from group leaders. It's like, well, we don't Understand this question, or how do we do this? Or are we filling this out wrong? So I think it just provides a lot of direction. It looks good, it's been redesigned. And so, yeah, we hope people pick it up and really get a ton of benefit from the new updated version.

Yes. And if you're a listener to the podcast, you will be happily surprised that it is Nick Stumbo who is leading you through these 40 videos as you go through your process. So it's like having a recovery dad walking step in step with you. It's awesome. And I don't mean that as a joke. It came out sound like a joke. It's not. It's awesome. They're really, really well done. So if you want to go get this new updated seven pillars, just go to PureDesire.org seven the word seven pillars. Seven pillars. All right, here is our conversation with Dr. Stephanie Carnes. Her new resource, Courageous A Couple's Guide to Conquering betrayal. All right, Dr. Stephanie Carnes, it's an honor and a privilege to have you with us. Welcome to the Pure Desire podcast.

Thank you so much for having me. It's an honor to be here.

We are really excited to have you. Number one, Nick and I are halfway through our PSAP certification through your organization, ITAP. We are obviously big fans, as you know, Dr. Ted Roberts and the Patrick Carnes, who, you know him, have that relationship and that training, and it's just, it's something that's so central to what we do, and that's why it's an honor to be able to spend some time with you. So we're here to talk today specifically about a new resource that you released last year called Courageous Love. It's a couple's guide to conquering betrayal. And we're just excited to talk to you about it. I mean, these are the people that we help. People who have had addiction and brokenness play out in their marriage and betrayal then enter because of that, and couples that really want to see their marriages restored. So overcoming betrayal, we'll get into it. It's not an easy thing, but many of our listeners will be somewhat familiar with itap, but maybe don't know much of your story. So how did you end up becoming the president of this really great organization helping people specifically overcome sexual addiction and betrayal trauma?

Sure. Well, I appreciate that you mentioned that Pat and Ted have had a friendship for many, many years. So Patrick Carnes is my father, not my husband.

Always good. To clarify.

I'm always glad to clear that up, but obviously he's been a huge pioneer in the field, and he and Ted have been friends for a long time. And so we have a lot of respect for the work that you guys have done with pure desire and all the lives that you're changing. So it's great to be on the show with you today. I've been working with Pat now for almost 20 years. So initially, as you can imagine, as a daughter, I wanted to go into a different arena, of course. So I was a university professor for a while and worked in medical family therapy. And he kept on working on me and said, come work with me, come work with me. And so about 20 years ago, I started working with. Working with him, and it's just been a joy of my career working alongside him and helping to develop itap. So we train therapists and pastors and all sorts of helping professionals on how basically what our mission is is compassionate and effective treatment for addicts and their families. And that's what drives our whole organization. So we work, we do trainings, we. We do conferences for professionals to provide community for people to interact and have a place to learn more and get support and also publish books and materials for people. So that's a little bit about us. I also am a senior fellow at the Meadows, which is. I am the clinical architect for their Ladies program there. It's called Willow House for Female Sex and Love Addicts.

Yeah, Clinical Architect, that's such a cool title.

But it really is amazing the work that ITAP has done over the years. And I think in so many ways is the leader in this industry. And I'm curious, just going off script a little bit here, and I know we're early in the interview to go off script, but for so many of us, this is like the work we've poured our life into of helping men and women overcome sexual addiction and betrayal trauma. But there's definitely still a, thankfully, a smaller segment of our society that wants to say sexual addiction isn't a thing. Pornography is really not harmful. It actually is better for your marriage. Spice things up. What? I'm confident you guys probably get some of that pushback or through the years have heard that. How do you respond to people that don't want to believe sex addiction is a thing or that pornography is harmful for our society? How have you responded to that kind of feedback?

Yeah, well, there's. I think it's important to understand where that's coming from for that person. I think that there are fears that. That people are going to over pathologize sexuality and you know, that. That people will over diagnose sex addiction, that everybody that views porn is automatically a sex addict. And I think that some of those fears can be. If you can understand what's driving that and talk to people about some of those concerns, they can be addressed. It's all the more reason for us to have to push for a diagnosis to legitimize sex addiction. And we finally have that with the World Health Organization acknowledging sexual compulsivity. So also, a lot of people are just misinformed. They think that this isn't a real diagnosis, when in fact we actually do have a diagnosis. And there is a lot of research out there, there is a lot of neuroscience. And so sometimes people just need to be educated.

Yeah, yeah. I think that's a really good way of putting it. And something that at pure desire. I know we've been working on that. Just because a man or woman is struggling with some battles they have with lust or pornography, we don't want to automatically have them categorizing themselves as addicted because that, that can mean a lot of things. But there is a lot of help a person can pursue long before they even need to worry, am I an addict or not? It's like, well, let's not worry if you are or aren't. That may be a diagnosis that through a professional clinician you get some help understanding. But let's just help you deal with these patterns or the pain in your life. And that kind of leads into the next question. Many people have probably experienced some level of betrayal in their life. So why is it though, that sexual betrayal is maybe uniquely devastating or painful?

Yeah. So I think that part of it is that when it's your partner, you think that that's going to be the person that's going to have your back. You don't expect it when it's the person that you love the most that you rely on. And so it's very different from other addictions where people are able, I think, to separate a little bit and understand why would choose a bottle or choose cocaine. But it's very personal when it comes to sexual betrayal. And it's a deeper level of wounding and abandonment because it's some, you know, you thought this person was there for you. And so it's the double whammy of just discovering everything and then just the depth of pain that comes from learning that you've been hurt by somebody that you really trusted and thought was going to have your back. It create so many confusing feelings for partners and for the whole Family, really.

And that's why it's so important to understand that it's a thing. Because, you know, I think for me, growing up in the Christian and church culture that I grew up in, you know, this was not language that we heard. This was not language that was discussed openly. And I would say I never heard it. I mean, and obviously you're not going to, you know, tell a kid growing up about your betrayal trauma. But as I became an adult, this is still something that there wasn't language for in the circles I was in. And so that's why it's so important that we're able to call it out right now. And that's why I love that we're having you on the show, because it is something that we need to put language to, because then once you actually are able to diagnose what's happening in you, then you can start to bring healing to that. But it's so hard if you have no idea what's going on or why you're feeling the way you're feeling or you're processing the way that you're processing.

Yeah, right. And I think, too, the media is really confused about what sex addiction is, and they conflate it with, you know, sex offending a lot. And there's, you know, they don't understand that the vast majority of people that suffer from this, it's pornography, it's, you know, prostitution. It's, you know, very common behaviors. And it's your neighbor and it's your doctor and it's your teacher, and, you know, it's very, very common. The most recent prevalence data that just came out from a nationally representative sample was 10% for men and 7% for women, which is so much higher than what it was thought to be like five, 10 years ago. It's incredibly common, yet still people are uneducated about it. People don't even realize it's a real diagnosis. There's a lot of misinformation in the media. And so it keeps the stigma really high, and it keeps people that need help from reaching out for support. And that's the biggest problem.

Yeah, yeah. I think that goes back to what you were saying at the beginning about if we pathologize it or create this huge stigma around it, and if there is a fear that every sex addict is a sex offender or potentially a sex offender, well, then nobody really wants to explore, could that possibly be me? Because it's like, well, then I'm embracing a whole bunch of other stuff that they would say, well, that's not my struggle. And so, yeah, I think just giving people clarity and understanding that this is more common than we expect. And just because there might be sexual betrayal, that doesn't mean that all of these other things are happening too. Now, in some stories, there are those extremes, and those are painful and horrible, and we hear about them because they tend to be more public. But as you said, Stephanie, for the average person, it's happening in their home. They don't know who to go to. They don't know who to reach out to, because we're not talking about it. And that's why I think having this workbook out, this resource, is so important for couples to have something else that they can process and really approach their pain in a helpful kind of manner.

Totally right.

And people don't realize when they have that kind of impression of it, that recovery is possible, that there are a lot of people that go through this process and couples that make it, that succeed, that are. They stay together, that are happy, that are stronger after all of this has happened. And so that's a story that gets missed a lot. And I think it's really important that we keep on putting that out there and letting people know that there's hope.

Totally. So in the book, you talk about the ups and down, really the up and down nature of this idea of healing from betrayal as a couple, which, I mean, if anybody who's been through it, they know it is up and down and up, up and down, down, all that. And I think for us in our ministry, and even as those of us that have struggled with this addictive behavior, know that there are things that we try that don't work to try to help our spouse heal from betrayal. We push them, we encourage them to do things. We try to show them the work that we do, which really can come off as manipulative and harmful. So based on what you have explored and your expertise in this book, the ups and downs, what are some things that struggling or addicted spouses can do to help their betrayed spouse in that healing, healing process?

Oh, yeah, that's such a good question. Because there's a lot that an addict in recovery can do. And let me just say that this book is written for any kind of sexual betrayal. So that could be a porn addict, sex addict, or even just infidelity. So I'm talking about, like, sexual betrayal globally. And so there's a lot of responses that the person, the unfaithful party, can work towards continuing to have with their hurting partner that can provide reassurance so, you know, I encourage things like, you know, open honesty, transparency. That is so critical, and the research really supports that. If you look at. There's some of you guys might be familiar with John Gottman. Do you know Dr. John Gottman? So obviously, number one marital researcher in the world, really, he put. He did a study in which he had betrayers. Two different groups of betrayers. The first group was a group of betrayers that was willing to be open and honest and answer all of their partner's questions. And then he had a group of betrayers that weren't willing to do that and divided those into two groups. Well, the groups that were willing to be open and honest had an 86% survival rate, marriage survival rate. And the group that wasn't had a 59% survival rate just on that one variable that is actually a lot of variance that's predicted by just that variable. Really be able to be open, transparent, provide verification that the behaviors have stopped. Being careful not to blame, shift, try and put responsibility on the hurting partner. That's really. That can be difficult. And I can talk more about that, but that's another good one. Just responding with compassion and empathy when they're triggered. When the partners feel anxious about something or they're reminded about the betrayal and the pain, you know, just instead of getting defensive and. Or kind of trying to evade it, which is very common because, you know, as addicts. Addicts are uncomfortable with partner anger. Right. It's hard for them, and it can be very. Create a lot of angst for them. They can get very emotionally flooded. But if they can respond with compassion and empathy and lean into it and try to really listen to what's going on for their partner, try to understand more about ptsd, what they're going through, that's the kind of response that makes for successful outcomes for the couple. So just continuing to provide reassurance and open empathic responding is really important. There's a little model in here called the support model. I don't know if you guys had a chance to see that, but your readers can look through that. It's a little communication tool that the addict can use when the partner is triggered to respond to the partners, which is just being very, in the present moment, really actively listening and providing that empathy and validation, that's just a resource that they can look up in the book if they want to learn a little bit more about how to respond.

And what I hear you saying is control what you can control. Like as an addict, as the struggling spouse, you can't control your spouse getting triggered or them to use the language to get emotionally flooded or to feel overwhelmed. But you can control your own recovery work. You can control how much work you put into the preparation. Because I know sometimes if a betrayed spouse gets angry and the addict is not in a clear headspace, they can be reactionary in that moment. And so I know doing mental rehearsal is huge. That could be super helpful. You're sitting down, just thinking through, okay, if my spouse gets triggered by something I do, how am I going to respond? Even that can be something that's just simple. But again, it's just to your point, you're controlling only what you can control, right?

Absolutely. Absolutely.

I think a lot of this does come down to awareness that when we're aware that we're not the only ones that struggle, when we're aware that our reactions are not uncommon, I think it just helps us enter into the space a little more to say, I'm not going through something strange and unique. Others have gone through this, and like you said, Stephanie, they've made it. There are couples that make it and can be restored. And so part of it, I think, in us doing this podcast, in us interviewing you, is creating more of those expectations of what does this feel like? What does the path forward look like? And so along those lines, you know, what would you say are some of the common reactions when a person experiences betrayal trauma? Because I imagine there's a real spectrum. But some people probably feel worried that they're underreacting and they're like, well, why am I not more hurt? While others worry that they're overreacting because they're just so angry. They're like, I never want to see that person again and everything in between. So how would you just describe the kind of reactions people have to experiencing that trauma? And why can people's reactions be so very different?

Yeah, so you mentioned at the beginning of the podcast, like, it being like an up and down, like kind of like a roller coaster. So it's pretty normal at the beginning of when all of this kind of explodes in a relationship for there to. For the partner to feel ambivalent about the relationship. Like, is this really going to work? Should I reinvest in this relationship emotionally? Like a lot of questions. Right. Not sure. And to be unsure. And so if you look at it from an attachment perspective, we use our loved one to help us de stress and to get some comfort when we're stressed out. We look to one another to help us regulate. We co regulate one Another during times of stress. So it's very normal for couples that are stressed out to kind of have moments where they lean into each other and where they're, you know, they. They lean on one another and get comfort from one another. And then for the partner to be like, what am I doing? You know, this is the person that just betrayed me, and then they'll withdraw. Right. And so you have these moments as a couple where you. You see, it's very normal to be kind of one minute you're together, then the next minute you're upset, and then the next minute you're together. It creates this sort of sense of a lot of upheaval in the relationship. So you have that stress. And for partners, when they're in the throes of betrayal, trauma, we have many partners that have difficulty just even functioning. What the research shows about 72% have functional impairment, Meaning, like, it's hard to get through the day. Working is difficult. You have difficulty concentrating. And so our partners are struggling so much, so much more than as a field. I think we're just now really coming to terms with how much this impacts partners. And typically, what happens is addicts have a lot more support in early recovery than partners have. And so they're, you know, they're struggling with a lot of emotional. It's like the. The world has. You know, their world has been blown apart. I kind of liken it to the Truman show with. Did you guys see that movie?

Oh, yeah.

Where it's like, all of a sudden, like, he wakes up and he realizes that, you know, his whole world is different than what he thought. Right. For a lot of partners, that's what it's like. They had no idea. And it's like, I had a partner say to me once. It's like someone. It was like somebody telling me that my mom and my dad were not my mom and dad. Right. So they have to reclaim reality where the addict has had all this time that they've known what's been going on. But for them, they have to consolidate this information all at once. And so a lot of times, they will do the detective kind of behaviors to try and figure out what's been happening. So I use the term safety seeking for that. And from a PTSD lens, we talk about it as safety seeking. They're trying to reclaim reality and figure out what's been going on and put the pieces of the puzzle back together. And so all of that is normal. That is very normal behavior. And the addicts just need to understand that they've known this whole time. They're. Their whole world view has not just been blown apart. So they have to be patient while the partner puts this information back together. And so if they're narrating the story over and over again, which a lot of partners do, they want to go over it. A lot of times they're asking a lot of questions. That's because they're trying to develop a cohesive narrative in their head of what's happening. And it takes time to process trauma like that. And so we look at all those kind of symptoms as normal responses to trauma. So also other things is just, you know, having a, you know, sense of shame. Like, what's wrong with me? What was impact on the self esteem? You know, why did they go outside of the relationship? Am I not good enough? Am I not pretty enough? Am I XYZ not, you know, whatever it happens to be, you know, so you have all of those concerns, concerns about sexuality. Of course, you know, how this is impacting their own sexuality. Now do you know, now that, you know, he or she's in treatment, am I obligated to have sex with them? What am my body image? You know, my, you know, you know, am I less than in some way sexually? You know, so there's all that wounding going on there. So it's a lot for a partner to process. So feelings of grief, depression, so a lot of this and ptsd, of course, being triggered a lot is very normal. If we look at this from a betrayal trauma perspective, we look at all of those responses as normal responses to trauma.

Yeah.

That, you know, we would just expect.

Yeah. It's funny, I. This is just maybe the hat that I wear, but I'm thinking about people who are the addicts or the struggling spouse right now who are listening to this. Just be aware that this is not like, we're not dumping all of this onto you to like add more shame. This is helping you fill out a fuller picture of what your spouse is going through. And this is, you know, hearing this is going to help you to be more empathetic and be more understanding. And I love your word that you're using Stephanie's compassion. You're compassionate toward your spouse that they. Man, here's this. I'm just going to say it. I think what I've experienced is that your spouse may not like you right now, but it doesn't mean that they don't love you anymore. It doesn't mean that they're for sure going to leave you. You just need again to Focus on what you can control and part. What I'm hearing you say too, in all of this is that if an addicted spouse can understand this and be more empathetic, there is a much better chance your marriage is going to last if you can be that support and that compassion and that understanding to your betrayed spouse.

You know what I always tell my addicts? I say recovering addicts can make great partners. You guys are learning now what you need to learn to be a great partner.

That's good.

So all the skills that you are. You know, we have, like, in our residential program, our addicts come in, they haven't typically, they have trauma histories a mile long. They've never told anybody anything about it. It's not uncommon to never have shared their trauma. They have big parts of themselves that they've walled off, and they come into group and they talk about this stuff for the first time with their other group members. And it's like they're starting to feel relieved. Right. And they're learning how to be vulnerable and intimate in groups in a whole new way. And the transition of. From basically what I see is people that get into recovery a year later can be completely transformed. If they really surrender to recovery and get into a place of integrity and are really working a program, they can be totally transformed into a. A person that they can feel proud of, like a strong person in recovery that they can be proud of and that a partner would be proud to be with. Right. But they have to surrender to that. And what I find is that when you have addicts that are riding the fence of recovery, that aren't fully embracing things, aren't, you know, then you have partners that are more anxious, that are more reactive. The couple conflict goes up. Right. When you have an addict that is like completely in 100%, a partner sees that change. A partner needs to see somebody be accountable, take responsibility, make changes, follow the plan. And when they see that, then they have enough hope to keep on going.

Totally.

Right. And both parties can do it. I know so many people that have successfully recovered. So they just have to keep the vision of where they want to go.

Yeah.

Okay. So a lot of people in this process ask the question of how long does it take to heal from betrayal, trauma? So from your experiences and clinician and all of your work with ITAP and the resources that you've been a part of, how long in your experience does that process tend to take?

Yeah, so when I. I'm going to say this and I'm just going to tell people to not to not get disheartened.

Totally.

But I'm, I'm being realistic. Okay. So this is, we look at this as a three to five year process. And I think that a lot of times when addicts get into recovery, they're like, in a few months, they feel like they feel transformed because they have made a lot of changes. And they're like, I'm doing so great. I don't understand why my partner is still so upset. And they have to understand that for the partner, again, they just found out about all of this. They're reeling. And it takes time to heal. And the only way to restore trust in a relationship, the only way is reliable behavior over time. And it takes a long time. And so you have to be patient. And I tell my addicts, you have to suit up and show up and be where you say you're going to be. You have to be impeccable with your word. You have to, you know, do exactly, you know, be exactly where you, you know, what you said you were going to do and all of that. And if you can do that, eventually trust can be restored. But it, you know, it's important to realize that's like three years out.

Yeah.

Minimum. Yeah. So just be realistic and be patient.

Yeah. And I think what we find in a lot of stories is that doesn't mean three years until your spouse talks to you again, that there's going to be progress along the way. There's going to be fun moments again, there's going to be new joys that you can discover together as a couple long before three years. But it is that taking that long term view of this is the window where some of these things I think will be solidified or firmed up enough that my spouse, who's gone through this whole unraveling process of all the things I didn't know and figuring out my new reality that that's where they will maybe arrive at a newer place of we've kind of gotten there. And that's not even then to say your journey's over. But I think that's the window we're looking at. But know that along the way there can be hope and encouragement if, as you were saying, Stephanie? I think it really comes down to the attitude of the struggler, and that's not to put the whole recovery process on the struggler or the addict. But I agreed with you in my own story and leading men in groups, it's like their attitude towards the process, their attitude towards doing the work, their attitude towards the spouse and Whether it's humility and openness and vulnerability or, you know, pride and arrogance and. Well, I don't really need this, and I don't plan to do those part. Like, that attitude is such a huge determining factor in continuing to make progress to that place of health and restoration.

Right? Absolutely. I agree 100%.

Yeah. So for so many couples, Stephanie, the messy, difficult part of this process is discovery and disclosure, like learning what we didn't know that's been going on behind our backs or in secret. So talk through what you suggest for the disclosure process and what's the best approach to ensuring that it's effective and not just pain dumping and pain receiving, that it actually leads to some restoration for the couple.

Yeah, well, I actually have done some research on this and have done a little study on it. I looked for factors that help make the process more effective. First of all, you should be with trained therapists for sure to lead you through the disclosure process and also to.

Have.

There should be a lot of planning and safety put in place. The mistake that's commonly made just, and I'm sure many of your readers know this, is that is the staggered disclosure of put out a little bit and then get confronted and put a little bit more, and then get confronted and put a little bit more. So in my couples therapy community, we call this death by a million cuts. It's like you're saying, oh, now I've told you everything. Oh, wait, now I've told you everything. And that's like, then the person just doesn't know what to believe anymore. Right? So to do it in a way where it's very thoughtfully prepared and both people have a support system in place and that the partner really gets all of their questions answered, and it all is put on the table. And part of the disclosure process also involves what my research showed that helps it become more effective is an impact letter. Following it, where the partner can share how the addict's behavior has impacted them so that the addict can really understand the pain points and how it's hurt them. And that's not. It's not an anger letter. It's let me share with you what's been most painful about this so that you can hear my pain. Because that part of the closing the loop on the healing process is for the addict to really get it, to really understand what the most painful aspects have been so that they can provide a decent amends to the process. So in courageous Love, there's an impact letter guideline and an emotional rest, which is kind of Like a, you know, formal amends or way of validating the partner's pain. So it's not just the disclosure. It's also kind of the work afterwards and kind of the couples therapy should have some, you know, intensive couples therapy following that to help, you know, the heal, you know, the healing process move forward.

Yeah. Kind of an offshoot question of that. What if there is. Because I can imagine a world where a betrayed spouse is aware that the disclosure. If we do a full disclosure process, we sit down with clinicians and we go through it the right way, that that will also be very traumatic for me. And what. I mean, how would you respond? What if someone came to you who's a betrayed spouse and says, I don't really want to do the full disclosure. I just want to take what I know now and move forward and let's both get healing from that. Is. Is it actually possible to be fully healed? Do we actually need a full disclosure for that?

So one of the rules of thumb that we use is that disclosure should be always guided by the partner's need and desire to know. So if you have a partner that says, I don't want to know, and, you know, that's. Then you honor that. Because some partners, they just, you know, they. It. We have to respect where each person is at with that. And. And forcing somebody who doesn't want that to go through that process is, you know, not usually not helpful.

Gotcha.

Yeah.

Yeah, I like what you're saying. That there's. There's a process that you can walk through with clinicians and therapists that. That help you do it well, get it all out in an important way. And then allowing time for the betrayed spouse to be able to process and share their feelings and hurts. And it occurs to me how important that is just for them to feel that they've been heard and that their emotions have been validated. And it's not just about, okay, I've heard everything you've done, and now we can kind of deal with it and move on? It's like, I've heard everything you've done, and now you need to hear everything I'm feeling and what I'm reacting to so that we can both kind of process this together. And I think sometimes that's missed, especially in our Christian church culture that pure desire operates, and there is kind of a confess mentality of just get it all out there. And then the other spouse is supposed to say, I forgive you, and somehow that magically is going to make it so we can move forward. And it just, it really, it's not a, it's not a full view of what I think even what Jesus meant by confession and repentance. It's. It's kind of a shortcut around healing it. Now it might be part of the process that it does need to get all out there and the other spouse does need to arrive at a place of forgiveness. But that doesn't mean those are the only pieces of the process. That if that process is done well, it can lead then to the couple working through so much of that in a healthy way. And what I would say is my follow up question, Stephanie, where so many couples are at that have come to pure desire, they're somewhere in between discovery and disclosure. They found the pornography on the phone or he confessed something and they've got some of it, but not the whole story. And so many of those couples or spouses, like they want the whole story right now. But as we know, the addict isn't always ready to give the full story because they're just so trapped in the fog of denial and rationalization. What do you say to couples that are kind of in that place, they know something's going on and they want to rush to disclosure. How can they handle that really messy kind of tension point?

So I would definitely recommend that they get into some of their own support at that point to try and, you know, their own recovery process. So for a partner to get their own support group, and they can use a group at church, they can use their therapist, you know, but each person, that's a very difficult, stressful time and each person is going to need their own support.

Yeah.

For partners in that situation, sometimes they don't realize how much power they have in that situation. They feel very powerless. But realistically, it's oftentimes when partners set limits and boundaries around things that it pushes the addict into treatment. So it's more often than not the addict goes to treatment because the partner has said, either you do something or I'm out of here. So when they have, you have a partner where they know something is going on and they're, sometimes they might just need to say, hey, I can't live like this and try to kind of perpetuate a bit of a crisis to get the addict into treatment, that can, you know, sometimes that can move things forward. Couples therapy too, it's never too soon for that. I think the field used to think that, you know, in early recovery you should do your individual therapy over here and your individual therapy over here. And I think We've really moved away from that and tried to get, you know, because at the end of the day, this couple's going home together and they have to live together, right together. So they need to be able to figure this out. And oftentimes they need support to do that. And so I'm of the mindset of always getting, you know, doing the family work and getting that on board sooner rather than later.

Yeah.

Okay, the next question, just a very simple, easy, you know, probably a one word answer guaranteed. How do couples rebuild trust after this huge traumatic experience of sexual betrayal?

So with a lot of behaviors that we've been talking about and that reliability and recovery, following the recovery plan, maintaining that and sharing that with one another. I think it's really important for addicts in recovery to share their recovery with their partner. Doing check ins, letting them know even if they can share anything meaningful about like, oh, this is, somebody said something about this in my group today and that really struck home with me or, you know, anything that can be shared to bring the couple closer together again. I don't think of the addict's recovery over here and the partner's recovery over here. It doesn't tend to work that way.

Yeah, it's good. That reminds me of, spent some time with Rosie McKinney not that long ago and her ministry fight for love and that's what she said. Is that the per. One of the people, one of the people in the situation of healing from betrayal that is that voice is most needed is the betrayed spouse. But we don't tend to ask like, what do you need? What do you see in this process? So that's just what makes me think of, is that both perspectives are so needed.

Yes, absolutely. I agree 100%.

So for some of our listeners, Stephanie, that, you know, they, they're the betrayed spouse, they're working through the trauma. Sometimes the message they can get is like, it just takes going to your group and having that support. And over time, these conversations, you know, they're going to lead to healing. And I think for some people it feels very passive. It feels like somehow I'm just going to kind of wait and we're going to get better. So what would you say to that betrayed spouse? Like, what can they actually do in order to be healing from betrayal trauma? What kind of steps can they take? Obviously we've mentioned go to a therapist, be in a support group, and those are kind of the basic, okay, go do those two things. But what else would you say to someone, like what are things they could be working towards that. Help them heal from this betrayal trauma.

Yeah. So I would say trauma work is one of the things that they should do, because I think that there's a lot of good therapies out there these days that really can benefit partners, like things like EMDR or somatic experiencing or even doing, like internal family systems or art therapy or. There's a lot of different techniques that are great for healing trauma. And I think partners get sometimes so focused on managing the recovery and dealing with the relationship that they forget their own trauma treatment. And I think that can be really instrumental in their healing.

Yeah. I think one of the things we've talked about before, too, is that even if the marriage were not to last or the relationship would not last, healing that betrayal and that trauma is still very important for that person moving forward for the rest of their life. Like, they ever want to have another healthy relationship, or they want to have healthy attachment or maybe not get triggered by these fairly normal situations that happen throughout the day and in relationship, then their own healing is still very important, whether that relationship lasts or not.

Right?

Absolutely.

Yeah. I think too many spouses do put the focus on, well, as long as my addicted or struggling spouse, as long as they're getting better, then I can heal, and we can kind of inadvertently give our keys for healing to someone else. And that's. That's really never the way it should ever be. That, as you said, pursue that trauma healing whether your partner is or not, and trust that a really good work can happen in you, and hopefully it's happening in your spouse, too, because that's what leads to the relationship healing. But as you said, Trevor, even if it's not, what are the steps I can take? How can I work through my pain? How can I learn to trust again? And I think if we take those steps, as we've said on other podcasts, that's probably the greatest motivator or the thing you could be doing that would help your spouse go, wow, look at the way they're healing and growing. I could work on my own story, my own change as well.

Yeah.

Yeah. And getting into a group is so helpful, too, for partners, just being with other people going through the same thing. Because I've seen so many partners, they. When this comes up, they, you know, they don't want to tell a soul. You know, they want to take this to their grave and get, you know, just not tell anybody about it. But you can't go through this alone. I had a partner that was like, I went through cancer and this has been so much worse yet. When I went through cancer, I had all this support and all this whatnot. And with this, I can't tell anybody. So it's like you still need to find some people that you can rely on and talk to about what's happening, even if it's just a small handful of people or go to a support group with other partners.

Yeah.

That are struggling, too.

So earlier you talked about starting to question sexuality and not necessarily in attraction, but in understanding the sexual relationship that you have with your spouse. So due to the nature of this betrayal, how can couples start to heal their sexual relationship? This is at the crux of that struggle. So what does that process look like?

It's huge, Right. Because what you're talking about is like, the reintegration post recovery. And it's very complicated because you have two people that are unique and each have areas of healing that they're working on. Right. And it's very common to have trauma histories in one or both parties. Then you have the wounding of the sexual betrayal. And sexuality, just in general, can be difficult for couples that don't have this. You have all sorts of sexual dysfunctions and medical issues. And so it can be very complicated. You have some addicts who, as in their acting out, they were what Pat calls anorexic in their relationship. Right. So when a partner discovers what's been going on, they're shocked. Like what? You know, this for somebody that didn't even, you know, they have so many questions about that, and they've felt neglected in the relationship. On the other hand, you have sometimes couples where the addict is kind of over, maybe over relying on sex with the partner, using that to kind of, you know, soothe or, you know, comfort them or what have you. And the partner is triggered by that or maybe not ready because they're so heard, they don't. They don't trust. So if you look at the research, the number one predictor of sexual satisfaction is feelings of trust in a relationship. So when you don't have trust in the relationship, it's harder. And so this is a very complicated issue. And partners, not only do you have the addict that is healing, so they have their own sexual health plan that they have to follow, and they have their own areas that are triggers for them, and so they have their peace. And then you have partners who are also wounded by the addiction or the sexual acting out, whatever it was, and may have a lot of their own pain or questions around that. So let's say that they found the addict's porn stash and the addict was looking at big breasted women and the partner doesn't have big breasts, right? Or, you know, they found out that they did XYZ behavior and now they're afraid to do that. XYZ behavior, what does that mean? Are they going to be comparing them, you know, all sorts of questions coming up for them, you know, now am I obligated to be sexual with them now that they're in recovery, is it safe to be sexual with them? So there's, you know, as you can imagine, this is like a huge area of work for couple healing in courageous love. There is a couple's, I call it the couples three hearts exercise. And basically what it is, it's a three circles for the couple in which they do, you know, it's sort of similar to the three circles for addicts in recovery. And that the middle circle, you combine, it's, it's a sexual health plan for them together as a couple that they make together so that they can have a vision of healthy sexuality for themselves. Because I think sometimes couples also, especially a lot of addicts in recovery, they're afraid that they're never going to have hot, healthy sex again. You know, they're like, you know, that's, they're afraid that that's, you know, going to be over. So we want to develop, help them develop a positive, fun, erotic, healthy sexuality and one that also is safe and honors both of their recoveries, honors the partner's ptsd. So basically the center circle is the addict's middle circle. Behaviors that are bottom line behaviors and also anything that's majorly triggering for the partner. So anything that's too painful for them to do given their recent history. Then the middle circle is boundaries that they both have, which could include triggers for the partner, could include boundaries that the addict needs to have for their recovery. And then the outer circle, I've got it into four quadrants where they define into it for intimacy. And a lot in one is for like emotional intimacy, like sharing and connecting, like sharing recovery and doing thanos and whatnot. Then we have friendship, like how are you going to build up your friendship? And then we have sensuality and nurturing. So that's like how can you be more like doing things like bubble baths or back massages or foot massages, like how can you be more nurturing and physically in a way that's comfortable? And then you have, you know, sexuality and what is your vision of how you guys are going to be together? What would you like for that to be. And, you know, let them, you know, it should be passionate. It should be, you know, hopefully erotic and fun for both people. They can find things that they would like to do together and develop a vision for that. So if they can define what their recovery looks like, that can help them move towards that goal. But typically it does take some help from a therapist, a couple's therapist, it's pretty common for that to be an area that they need some support. So if they, you know, some couples can manage it without, but if not, then I would encourage them to go to couples therapist and work on that.

Yeah, I really like that idea of the three hearts because we talk a lot about the three circles and a way of bringing our individual work together into a picture of like, okay, this is what health can look like. This is where we've pre agreed what we don't do, what are our boundaries, where can we go instead? What's healthy? And then I think when those moments of potential healthy sexual intimacy come, we're already feeling like we're more on the same page and there's not this guessing game in both people's heads, like, was this okay, or what about that? Or is she going to want to go there or not? Which immediately is just going to kind of destroy sexual intimacy. Because, like, we're so busy being in our own heads, we're not. We're not present in our bodies with our partner. And so working through that and talking through that just sounds so valuable. And what I'm also hearing you say, Stephanie, is like, this is not a one size fits all approach. It depends so much on your sexual history, where you're at as a couple, where you're at in recovery, you know, are you both making progress? Like, every relationship is going to have to navigate this differently, which really, I think speaks to the need of having a counselor help walk through some of these things. Because it's not going to be easier or just cookie cutter couple to couple.

Yeah. And if the, you know, it's important too for couples to remember that if the emotional connection isn't there, to work on rebuilding that first. And really, really, it's going to be hard for that sexual relationship to fall into line when that emotional piece is not there yet. So just again, be patient with that kind of work because you want to have that safety and comfort emotionally first, and then that will carry into your sexual relationship. And if the partner has pts, their PTSD triggered in the middle of a sexual experience, the unfaithful person can comfort them and they'll get through that. Okay. As opposed to it blowing up, because that, you know, safety isn't there. So you have to get that emotional piece on board and that friendship back together first. Yeah, that's important.

Yeah. Well, and speaking of that emotional connection that leads right into one of our last questions here that we know, I think even numerically speaking, that a majority of addicts would say they struggled with having empathy. They sometimes addiction shuts down empathy. And so in recovery, they're hopefully relearning how to have empathy. Empathy. But what can that look like for the struggling or addicted spouse to grow in their empathy and their emotional connection towards their betrayed spouse?

Yeah, I think that's really, really important. One of the things, you know, I do some different exercises with my addicts, like have them write an impact letter to themselves from the point of view of their partner. Try, you know, just as an example, to try and put themselves in their partner's share shoes or really kind of look at all the ways that their partner's been impacted. And I have this little worksheet where I have them write out the ways that their partner has been impacted just so that they're more cognizant of some of those things. There's a great workbook too out there called. There's one called Help Her Heal by Carol Jurgensen Sheets. I don't know if you guys are familiar with that workbook, but it's an empathy building workbook that can be a great resource for addicts trying to rebuild that. But I think you're right. I think that in our addictions, you know, with our. With all the trauma that's typically unresolved there, it's very easy for people to kind of get into a place where they're not thinking about other people and how they impact other people. But that's what recovery shifts you into, and it just takes some time. So the more that you keep on working a program, what I see is that empathy comes with time. So they just have to keep on working on it and using some of those books and learning about ptsd, reading some of the partner books out there that are geared towards partners. I have a book called Mending a Shattered Heart that is the addicts can read and understand the partner's perspective a little bit more. And there's lots of other good books out there.

Yeah. Like, yeah, so be informed, learn, grow. Yeah, you can get better at this. Guys and gals that struggle with empathy, like, you don't just get to say, well, I'm bad at empathy. No, you can learn. You can grow. We can all grow.

Absolutely. And what is very evident from our time together today is that the process is just that it is a process and it's going to take time, be patient and be compassionate. Because, I mean, every question we ask you is, it's like, well, it depends. And it's a process. Like, that's basically where it's at. And so you have to. And I. And I like the language a lot. Like, instead of, you know, going on your journey or healing or whatever, doing the work, like working your recovery. I like that idea that there is this forward movement that we're always taking. Okay, so part of the process for people would be buying this book, this resource, and going through it. Courageous love. So where can people grab a copy of this resource?

It's on Amazon, so it's really easy to get. So that's probably the best and easiest way.

Perfect. Everyone knows about Amazon.

What is this Amazon used to buy?

Seriously. They also ask what YouTube is and the Internet and. Anyways, Stephanie, thank you so much. We're big fans of you. We're big fans of your organization, and obviously it's very central to us and to our ministry, and we just thank you for the work that you're doing. You and ITAP are just crushing it. And we love being a part of the ITAP community and we just appreciate you being with us today.

Oh, thank you so much. And let your people know that we have the Peace out program. If anybody else wants to. To become a member of the ITAP community, it's really exciting because we have conferences every year with great speakers all learning about how to work better with these with betrayal trauma and with sex addiction. And it's a really fun, passionate community to be a part of. So we'd love to have more of you guys sign up for our PSAP program and be become one of our members.

So Nick and I can vouch for that. Yeah, go do it. For sure. All right, well, wherever you're at on your journey, Pure Desire is here to help create a road map for your healing. If you or someone you know is impacted by sexual brokenness or betrayal trauma, go to PureDesire.org and let's start the healing journey today. Don't forget to subscribe to the podcast. Each week we put out new content to help you on the road to healing and freedom. And lastly, never stop being healthy.

Sat.