227 - FAQ #12: Sex

You're listening to the Pure Desire Podcast, your safe place to find hope, healing, and freedom from sexual addiction, betrayal, and relationship issues.

Hello.

Hello.

I'm your host, Trevor Windsor, and you're listening to episode 227 of the Pure Desire podcast. You're joining me, as always, is my co host, Nick Stumbo.

Open, open, open.

I wish people could see your face when you did that. I have no idea where that's from, so.

And likely you shouldn't. And I don't even really know the context other than that this is a phrase I've heard my wife say many times, and she claims it is from, I think, like a 1980s Kohl's commercial with a little girl, like, looking. It could be Target. I don't know.

I don't know the history of Kohl's.

Details that well, but evidently it was some commercial. Like a little girl looking in through the store glass door, waiting for it to open and ask, open, open, open. And I just thought that would be very appropriate for today's conversation.

All right, well, our conversation today, I didn't mean that condescendingly. I just was transitioning. I liked it. That was good. 1980s Kohl's. I'll YouTube it later. So we had Heather Kolb, who's our neuroscience expert content manager on the podcast today, and we talked through frequently asked questions and. And this is episode number 12 of that. But specifically the questions were around the topic of sex.

Yes, they were. And I think for a lot of people, they can feel like they're standing outside, maybe even in the dark, looking into this bright, well lit room that we call healthy marriage sexuality. And they're like, how do I get in there? How do I open the door? And that's what a lot of this conversation went to, is like, let's explain what can help us live in that room of healthy sexuality and not just thinking that's a mythical place for only a few couples. Like, it's really affirming today. This is God's plan and God's design, and we can see his goodness. Now, depending where we're at in recovery, we might not be able to just jump right into all these things. There are definitely some phases or seasons to recovery that right now, if we're still early on, we may need to just focus on our own recovery, whether it's from the trauma or, you know, stopping the addictive behaviors. And it's too soon to think too much about some of these. But for a lot of couples, as you're starting to get traction of those individual behaviors. These are critical questions and probably some that aren't discussed enough. I know in our group resources we don't make that the priority because it's the self focus, but I just thought it was a great conversation. I feel like we maybe need to give a little warning to singles that you need to really evaluate where you're at in your singleness and if this is the kind of material that will be helpful to you. Because the truth is, statistically, most singles will be married again. So I think it'd be great for you to learn about healthy marriage sexuality. But at the same time, if hearing about our ideas around healthy sex could be triggering to you, I think you need to have some wisdom around that and maybe just skip this episode and wait for the next one. So it's a good word. Just felt like we should put that out there because we really did focus on sex and marriage today.

And if you do get married, come back to this episode.

Yes. Man, this was. I honestly wish, like the week before I got married, someone could have pushed play on this podcast. Like it would have helped change so many paradigms I had that I didn't even realize I had. Yeah. So really, really helpful.

Yeah, absolutely. Before we get to it, a few things. Subscribe to the podcast. We're on all the major platforms. You can follow us on social mediauredesirepdmi and also we have full episodes up on YouTube. All right, so another thing that. And this is something that's just like, to me, it's almost this like dark horse part of our ministry that's just like in the background and not everyone knows about it, but it's a really, really meaningful and impactful part of what we do. And it's called the Pure Desire Leaders program. Can you talk about that a little bit?

Yeah. We wanted to be intentional to create partnership with churches, organizations and denominations to say we want to care for the well being of our leaders. We want to provide them with some proactive help and resources. And then if there is a crisis, if there is a struggle or an addiction, we want to get them engaged in a recovery process and do it through Pure Desire as that trusted partner. So it's not a partnership with the leader individually. It's a partnership with their church or organization to help leaders get healthy. So Pure Desire has had an amazing track record. We've worked with thousands of pastors on both sides of this issue. Some that were dealing with it prior to it becoming an issue that needed to be dealt with publicly. And then also many Pastors that have come after the fall or after something came out publicly and they lost their job, whichever end of the spectrum a leader is on, we can help. And I think for organizations or church boards to say, we want to just create that partnership, it communicates to your leaders. We care about you beyond just your leadership skill. We care about you as a person and we want you to be in ministry for the long haul. So we're creating this partnership with Pure desire to help you be healthy. And again, that's whether the leader comes to us for help on the preventative side and just being trained and resourced or needs to come here because this is an issue in their life, we help with both and partnership in that regard then just makes a lot of sense.

And we, and we believe that this program is one of the greatest ways to care for and shepherd your leaders in your church to create that safe, safe place, safe culture, safe environment to be broken and be a pastor. Because believe it or not, pastors are broken too. And this is just a great way to start shifting that culture. So if you are interested in learning more about the Pure Desire Leaders program or to even sign up for this program, go to PureDesire.org PDL alright, here is our time with Heather Kolb talking through more frequently asked questions around the topic sex. Heather Kolb, welcome back to the podcast.

Thank you for having me.

Yeah, we're glad to have you. I love these episodes. We're diving into another frequently Asked questions episode and we get, I just want to say it publicly, like for people who are listening. We get your questions, I get those emails and I maybe don't respond to every single one of you and those emails at the time, but it goes into a folder that the next time we come around to topics or putting together episodes or FAQ episodes like this one, I always go to those. So these are pulled directly from those emails. So thank you for sending those in. And as I was putting this episode together, just realized, wow, a lot of these questions have to do with sex. I feel like people are interested in sex and how it plays out in recovery and relationships. And so that's really what this is. This is an FAQ episode specifically about sex. So these are all again sent in by listeners. And again, I just would say it. Please send in more questions and topic suggestions. It's awesome. So let's get to the questions. The first one is sent in from Sherry. She says, I'm in a betrayal group. My fiance is in a seven Pillars group. You guys are super. You Guys are starting off so well already. This is amazing. Her question is, what is acceptable or not regarding role playing and sexual fantasies with your spouse? Is it okay if both are comfortable with it? Could it ever cause someone with a porn or sexual addiction to relapse?

Yeah. What a great question. And I appreciate that it came in because I think a lot of couples probably wonder about these things. And we definitely live in a society that can emphasize those things, that can talk about them as being normal, good, healthy within a marriage, without even any boundaries or cautions around it. And so I think in recovery, we do wonder, like, what's permissible, what's good for us. And, you know, we often put these questions into the category of right and wrong. And I think a lot in this episode you're going to hear us talk about healthy versus unhealthy. Now, obviously, in a case like this, if any sort of sexual fantasies or role playing, and this would go to pretty much anything in our sexuality, if it makes one of the spouses, either one, feel degraded, shamed, uncomfortable, unsafe, pressured, that we could, I think, put into the category of wrong. Because that should never be what healthy sexuality feels like within a relationship. And so that's just a starting point that I would assume in this question that both halves of this couple are saying, yeah, we're interested. We just want to know if it's going to be good for us or not, if it's healthy. So obviously those things would be off limits. But then as it comes to the question, you know, in a marriage, we want to encourage couples to be adventurous, to find pleasure. We want to be very sex positive to say, God gave you this gift of marriage, so explore it and have fun with it. But when it comes to fantasy and roleplay, I do think there are a couple of cautions that we really need to keep in mind. Number one is how would this fantasy or role playing connect to a person's arousal template? Because if it's been part of in the past how they were triggered and led them into unwanted sexual behaviors, whether that was just in fantasy or with other people, then that will likely continue to be a part of their unhealth. And it would be very risky or dangerous to have them enter back into their arousal template in ways that led them into their old unhealthy behavior. And the other thing I'd keep in mind with that, when it comes to fantasy and role playing, the brain doesn't know the difference. It doesn't differentiate between what is real and what is fantasy. So if you were ever Considering a roleplay or a fantasy that in real life would be harmful or illegal or inappropriate, you shouldn't be fantasizing and role playing that in your marriage, because that's only encouraging the brain to make that a normal part of its sexual activity. So I think we just have to be really cautious in recovery of what is a part of my old patterns. And even if I'm doing it in, you know, within the bounds of marriage, and we think, oh, as long as it's with my spouse, it's okay. Like if it's part of that old pattern, not necessarily. And then the second thing I would say, sexual fantasy or role playing, I think can have a tendency to detach us from the person, when really the goal of healthy intimacy is to connect us to the person. So if the role playing or fantasy is causing us to objectify our spouse or turn them into something they're not or someone they're not, I think that's dangerous because the goal is to connect with one another, to know each other, to be present. So are there ways that role playing fantasy could create deeper connection with our spouse and the person they are? I think there may be possibilities. And without knowing specifics of what they're asking about, I wouldn't want to get into that. But just say, those are the parameters I'd look at is to say, is this exploration or fun or adventure that we're considering in our marriage helping us connect with one another as real people? Because if it's disengaging us from that, I think that's going to lead towards unhealth.

And I think that some of that also has to go onto the spouse. And maybe both spouses have some sexual brokenness in their life or in their past. A lot of that is not just can I push the boundaries until my spouse is comfortable? And that's where it stops. You need to evaluate on your own, my own self. Knowing your own arousal template as you're talking about, is this something that is going to be helpful for me or not? So, you know, I think sometimes it's like, well, if I want this, I can just push it basically up into the boundary of my spouse being like, okay, this is where the line is. Maybe you need to set that line. And maybe your spouse would be open to something like that. But for you, if it's something, you know, that you spent a lot of your time watching pornography of this nature, like, you know that, like, maybe your spouse doesn't know every single search that you've done or what types of Porn or sexual brokenness you have, depending on the disclosure process and everything. But I think that it's okay for you to draw that line and honestly that can probably communicate care and love to your spouse. That I'm self aware enough to say, you know what, this is probably not healthy for me. And so if we are going to do role playing or any other sexual fantasies, I would like to move away from this one just to maintain health in my own life.

Yeah, that's so good because I think that there's a lot of, well, I've heard this from betrayed spouses who they think that, okay, this would be a good thing, let's spice things up a little bit. And then down the road they find out that oh, this is what he did with prostitutes or this is what you know, and then it's re traumatizing to them again.

And so what kind of porn he preferred.

Exactly. And so I think that, that it's great if both of the spouses are in a healthy place and they want to move forward in this area together. But I would suggest definitely creating, having those conversations to just say this is where like you said, the boundaries or these type of topics or this is off limits, but let's explore and let's have fun with this.

Totally.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, let's explore a question that's kind of on the other end of the spectrum. If this is a couple trying to figure out what can we explore in our marriage. Here's someone asking about sexual anorexia and saying if someone knows they are struggling with sexual anorexia, what does it look like to create more sexual health or to move towards sexual health?

Yeah, this is a good question. And we hear this type of question often because I think that people don't kind of understand what it could look like.

What is sexual anorexia? For some people who maybe don't know.

Sexual anorexia is when you are abstaining from having sex with your spouse. And we often see this typically as a pendulum swing that you have somebody who was acting out all the time acting out by themselves or to porn or other things. And then they decide that, okay, I'm gonna abstain from that. But then the pendulum swings and then they're not having any type of sex with anybody, not even their spouse. Because I think that there's some psychological issues that couple that. But I think that's basically what we're talking about is abstaining from any time of masturbation or porn use, but then also even just having sex within the Context of your marriage. I think that's what people are talking about at Pure Desire. We always say that emotional health needs to precede sexual health. And, and I think that that's one of the things that, that people can do to kind of move toward that is to figure out other ways that they can develop intimacy that are not sexual but are more emotional and relational. You know, how is it that you're, you know, taking, taking time to go on weekly dates, you know, that where there's no sex involved at all, and then even non sexual healthy touch, what does that look? I mean, can you hold hands with your spouse and not expect sex that night? Or, you know, all of those different things I think are super helpful to get to a point where you're building a space where you can engage in more sexual health.

Yeah, I think just to go back where you started, to really emphasize this is common and probably more common than any of us realize, because we do get these questions all the time at conferences where couples are saying, we've not been sexually intimate for months or sometimes years. And so that can be a starting point to just know, okay, we're not in some unique place that no one else has ever been. Because there can be a shame in that. There can be a what's wrong with me? And that only makes the situation more difficult. The thing that comes to mind for me, I just feel like this is something that couples need to talk about. And if they're not comfortable talking with one another first, then it needs to start with a counselor to explore why do I not feel comfortable going there? Or why am I not feeling drawn to my spouse or what is keeping me from that freedom. And if there are things like unexplored trauma or abuse in the past, or maybe one of the spouses is just still in a place of trying to recover from the trauma. That needs to be an open conversation of saying what will create the environment where we can move towards this and, and what's holding us back? Because I think if we just expect that, well, we'll just get healthier and it will just go away on its own. We'll, we'll just start having more sex. That may be unrealistic if there's not a foundation of conversation and growth together of what's causing this situation.

Yeah, because I think sometimes you just, you do, you just hope it'll get better. Like if we're both in group, if we're both, you know, pursuing emotional intimacy, if we're in a good place, that it'll just get better. And that's not necessarily true. You know, you, Heather, you mentioned, like, psychological issues. It could be. You know, your brain does a really good job of protecting you from some of the traumas you've experienced in life. And so sometimes you can't even remember some of the things that may be impacting your view or your relationship with sex just on an individual level. And so I think doing something, going to see a counselor, joining a group, having conversations with other people is always something we would encourage with any level of sexual brokenness. Because our friend Julie Slattery would say that sexual anorexia is on that spectrum of sexual brokenness that it is. Sex is intended to be this way, and we're intended to have this relationship with it. And anything different would be that level of sexual brokenness. So it's the same kind of encouragement, I would say, to anybody who's dealing with any level of sexual brokenness. Do work, find help, get in community and just pursue that. And I do believe that you can trust the Lord to change and to grow and to move that in the right direction for you.

Yeah, absolutely. So Conrad, he sends in this question that says, if a spouse is recovering from sex addiction, how should the couple engage in trying new things, like different sexual activities in a fun and healthy way? This seems to be a theme, I think, today.

Yeah, I think the first thing that really comes to mind is because I'm just envisioning, in a healthy way in this situation where someone, you know, maybe you are initiating sex with your spouse, or you're in the middle of that, and you're like, oh, hey, I have this interesting idea. Let's try this. I would say if you're gonna try something new, to me, there's just something about in the moment, maybe that's not the best time, because your spouse might feel pressure to just be like, sure, like, okay, you know, And I think that. I don't know, they could be so dynamic. But I think having conversations beforehand about some new things that you want to try is probably beneficial. Having a meeting, having a planning meeting, if you will, of coming together and having that conversation. These are some things that. That I've been wondering if you'd want to try or you'd want to start engaging in together, opening that up to where it's. And here's what I would also say, this little caveat. Let's not do it on a night. Maybe we've planned to have sex or, you know, I've started getting, you know, handsy or frisky. With my spouse, it's like, hey, by the way, you know, like, that was creepy, but.

Hey, by the way, by the way.

But I think even having it maybe be on a night where you're planning not to have sex to have that conversation. So there's safety that's kind of that safety covering for both spouses to be able to just be open and honest. And that's a theme through a lot of these questions is just communication. Communication, communication.

I think, too, we have to be willing to look at where do these ideas that we're having about, you know, in the question, different sexual activities. Because I think we can inadvertently get a lot of pressure from the world around us of things that we should be doing in our sex life, or whether it includes sex toys or sex positions, just the world trying to say, well, this is what it looks like to have a really fulfilling sex life. And that's not to say those things are wrong, but it's not necessarily true that a fun sexual activity with your spouse is engaging and feeling seen. And maybe there are new things you're trying, but just making sure you're doing it within the bounds of what you want as a couple and not some pressure that you think, well, now that we're healthier, we should be incorporating these things or these practices. And it's like, you know, our world in many ways, and you've seen this even historically, I mean, for centuries that. That it tries to, like, bring all these things in to the partnership to say, well, this is what you need for it to be fulfilling when that may not be true. So I would just encourage couples to have that conversation of, are we looking to add some fun, excitement, activity because we both are interested, or is it because we're feeling this outside pressure that we're, quote, unquote, missing something? So just have those honest conversations.

Yeah, I agree. And I also think that for the betrayed spouse, for them to definitely have a voice in this process, to not just be the agreeing partner, but really for maybe the partner who struggles, that they would go to their spouse and say, what do you want to do? What sounds fun for you? What would make you feel safe and. But sounds engaging or exciting and yeah, because that's important.

That's so true that the betrayed spouse really needs to be able to set the pace. And if it's a pace that they're not ready for, the recovering or addicted spouse needs to be okay with that. And I really think that's a way that we show some change in our recovery journey is going to Our betrayed spouse and asking those questions, just like you said, Heather, because it's a way of saying, in my addiction, in my struggle, I made sex or I made that experience about me. It was about me getting my needs met or what I wanted or meeting my desire. Desires. And I'm seeing that health looks like me coming to you and saying what makes you feel valued, heard, pleasured, and what do you enjoy? Like, I need to be in tune with you and not just look at what I can get out of it. So that's a huge shift, I think, for a lot of couples.

Yeah, I think. And this, again, this could probably be applied to every question here. It wouldn't be bad to have that conversation and not being very, very specific. But with your group or your group leader, like, on both ends, like, is it okay? Do you guys think. Do you gals think that this would be okay for me and my spouse to pursue? Knowing my story, knowing where I'm at in recovery, and just getting some. Some feedback from helpful people who know your story, I think could be beneficial. All right, well, let's move on to the next one. This one was sent in from Jackson. Says, my wife and I don't have sex much, and that's okay, but when we do, it ends up being very quick. My wife never gets to climax, and it's frustrating. I truly want to connect with my wife to the fullest and to be pleased to the fullest. It's been years since she's climaxed. We don't have sex much at maybe once every month or so. It works for us. But do you guys have any advice for the situation?

This is a really interesting question because I feel like, on one hand, I want more information about it. I want to know.

There's a couple of questions I'd really like.

He left his phone number. Let's call him right now.

Yes. Get Jackson on the line.

But I guess that, too, because we all have experienced this through the different seasons of life, so to speak, that there are times when couples don't have sex as much if there's new children in the picture or even if there's other life events like the death of a parent or, you know, there's all kinds of things that play roles in this. But I guess that I would want to know why, you know, I would. If I was this spouse that. That wanted to develop this healthy sexual relationship with my wife, I would want to know why, you know, why is it that she used to be able to achieve orgasm and now can't or I would want to know what in the relationship is not working so well, and why is it that she maybe doesn't like sex or it's not satisfying? And really, we talk a lot about this at Pure Desire, the way that God designed sex as a bonding agent, that we have very specific chemicals in our brain that, through orgasm, help us to attach and bond and feel close to our spouse. And for women, especially if they're not achieving orgasm, their brain is not creating those chemicals, and sex becomes disinteresting. And so that would be one of the questions that I would ask first, is that, is this a physical thing? I mean, is she going through menopause? Is sex painful? Is it. Does she need to go and see the doctor and, you know, all of those kind of things. And then even the psychological, emotional aspect to it is, does she want to have great sex? Does she want to achieve orgasm with her husband? You know, I mean, these are all huge, huge questions, but I think that it's worth exploring for both spouses.

Yeah, well, and I hope our listeners know this, but I think we need to be clear about it. And I'll be just a little graphic here, but let's call things what they are. I think Hollywood sells us a version of sex that says if we're having great sex and the man is taking his time, going slow enough that the man and woman will both achieve climax through thrusting alone. But, you know, research and people that study this for a living say that is rarely the case for a female, that there's a reason the clitoris is on the outside of the body. And more often than not, a large percentage of women, it requires manual stimulation of the clitoris for them to reach climax. And that could be the husband helping with that or the wife herself as part of their intimacy. But if that's not happening, and you're just assuming that, well, if. If we're going slow and having good sex and it should be just as we're thrusting together, it happens. And when it doesn't, like the letdown. Yeah, physically, that's very common, that women won't climax through that alone. So I assume that. And that'd be my question I want to ask, like, are you taking time to help her get there? Is there manual stimulation that's taking place to help her feel that pleasure and not just assume that it'll happen because, you know, you're trying to slow down a little bit?

Totally. I think some. You know, I'm a pretty vulnerable person anyways, but just vulnerably, like I resonate with this. And that's something that I think that some culture, some negative self talk, like I should be able to last longer or it should be more enjoyable for both of us. Or you know, there are times where it's like, why do I feel like things went so quickly? Here's just what I, what I've have been thinking through and experiencing is like, it's okay for you to slow down and it's okay for you to just spend time pleasuring your wife. However, that looks like whatever you're both comfortable with. And I think that for a number of reasons, like the more healthy that, and this is just my experience, the healthier I become, the more I want sex for that mutually shared pleasure. I don't just want in my addiction, it was all about me and how good I felt and whatever. It's not that way anymore. Like when I engage with sex with my wife, it's something that I want both of us to enjoy. And it's almost this. Actually there's no almost about it. If I enjoy it and she doesn't, to me, it feels less. It's just like, okay, bummer. Like that's not what I want. I want it to be mutually pleasurable. And so what if you just pleasured your wife again? However, that, however you guys are comfortable with, that doesn't have to do with intercourse because God made many different ways to have sex with your spouse. Like it's not just intercourse. And there is, as you mentioned, the pain. And sometimes it's right after childbirth or even childbirth alone changes some things for women. And so I know that's definitely there. But to assume, and I'm gonna read in a little bit, but just to assume that that's the only way for your wife to orgasm is shortsighted. And also for you to both have to climax every time you have sex is also short sighted. It doesn't necessarily have to be that. And so I resonate with this question for sure and I appreciate that someone has asked it. But at the same time it's okay to lift your head a little bit and look around and see that there's more than just two people having intercourse and it having to climax while you're both doing that.

I just wanted to add one other thing is that the more that I've talked with women, and at women's conferences especially, but even at the other conferences, women will come and ask questions about sex and, and I think that there's a lot of women who don't even understand their own Bodies, they don't understand even what they like or what they don't like, or a lot of them don't even know that women have seven erogenous zones. And so I think that even just exploring a little bit of that, like you said earlier, Trevor, that with your girlfriends, have this conversation where it's safe, that you can say, I don't know anything about this. Where should I start? Or I think that that would be really helpful, even just for the woman who wants to have better sex with her husband but doesn't know where to start.

And that's what I was going to lead into that. We should mention another guest on the podcast, Sheila Rae Gregoire, has some books about this. She has exercises on her website that are really meant to help couples get in touch with one another and their bodies. And she's a resource that is safe in terms of she's not going to be graphic. She's a Christ follower. And I think would do so in a biblical way, but really inviting couples to explore what do you like? And how your bodies work. And another name that we really trust, and it's one that Sheila Ray Gregoire, in her study said, man, their book was excellent. Is Clifford and Joyce Penner. That their works really consistently deal with the physical realities of our body, how God designed them to work and what married couples can do together to really create the pleasure that God created. So if you're in need of that, don't. And if we grew up in an environment where this wasn't talked about, we might feel guilty or shameful even to order that book or to listen to those podcasts, like, oh, this feels wrong. It's like, that's part of it. I know it's another question. But, like, just getting comfortable with. There is a gift of marriage, sexuality that we're invited into by God, our creator. And so we've got to lean into that. And if getting resources can help, man go after it.

So, yeah, and gosh, there's just. There's no shame in that. Like, why? I remember. I remember when we first got married, Amy and I, I just assumed that because I'd started to get healthy and because we hadn't had sex before we got married, that it was just gonna be something that, like, sin wouldn't touch for some dumb reason. I was just like, oh, by all means, this will be great, you know, and sin won't. But once you start having sex with your spouse, you're like, oh, yeah, no, totally. Like, sin, selfishness, brokenness, it all plays out. And so to think that, like to think that it's okay to take my car into the shop to get fixed or it's okay to go to the doctor and get a consultation, but to think that I can't ask for help when it comes to this area, like, it's one of the biggest lies that we believe and I think that we need to stop it. But I think that exploring those sharing your story, Jackson, like this, being able to open up like that, that too is a way of starting to invite feedback and insight from other people and to really start moving in the right direction.

Yeah. Well, here's another great question around a topic that rarely gets addressed in churches or in Christian circles. But Kyle asks, do fetishes have any meaning? Do we need to analyze them during our recovery? So, Heather, talk a little bit about fetishes and how they might connect to our story.

Okay, great question.

That's a great question.

It is a great question because fetishes, I think, tend to be more of a taboo topic. Fetishes typically is when someone develops sexual arousal to a non human item. Or it could also include non sexual body parts. Like people who have feet. Yeah, exactly. And so I think that, yes, it is something that has meaning. It's part of our story, it's part of our arousal template often. And it is worth exploring. It tends to be something that I think people feel a lot of shame about and they would rather just pretend it doesn't exist instead of digging into the meaning behind it. But I think that Jay Stringer, he does a great job in his book Unwanted talking about this idea and he talks about it within the context of fantasies. But even just being able to look back at our history and uncover where this came from, because the other part of people who deal with fetishes is that it becomes distressing for them that it's something that they don't like about themselves. It carries a lot of shame. There's a lot of, you know, emotional baggage that comes with that. And just being able to, like you said earlier, lift your head up, you know, be able to look at this and say, this isn't necessarily who I am, but it definitely is part of my story. And I want to figure out that piece of brokenness that I keep carrying with me.

And I think that one of the things is that if you do feel shame, to me, that's evidence of there's brokenness there, there's a lie you're believing, there are thoughts and emotions that haven't been dealt with. And I think of you know, we're about to finish the psap, the Pastoral Sex Addiction Professional Certification through itap, all three of us are. And one of the things I remember from module one was Adrian Hickman bringing the question to light. What makes this make sense? And I think that that's such a great question that we need to ask ourselves, especially when it comes to fetishes or anything like that that makes us feel shame is ask the question, what makes this make sense? And what's great is when you ask that question, it takes off those judgmental goggles and puts of an investigative. Is that even how you say it? I felt really good coming out. I was like, yeah, that's not it. Right. But it's just that total like. And you use the word a lot, Nick, like the sleuth, like the detective, someone who goes in and is exploring and researching and trying to dig under the surface to find out what's really going on. And the more that you do that, what's great is if you can start to think that way, in a non shaming way toward fetishes, you're going to see that that opens the door to look a lot of other aspects of your story and your brokenness and how it played out and you're going to find tons of clarity. And I think that health, the new layers of health that we get come with those new aha moments once we start to investigate.

Let me ask you a follow up question, Heather, that I feel like a lot of our listeners might be asking themselves right now. Do you feel that in health and recovery that fetishes can become a healthy part of our sexual activity? Or do you find that as we get healthier, fetishes lose their appeal or their power?

In our story, I think it's the second one. I think that it's unlikely that you would ever turn a behavior that something that is so distressing and shaming that you would turn it into something positive. And especially when it comes to fetishes, I think that people would just as soon even understand where they came from and then remove it as part of their healthy sexual behavior. Does that make sense?

Yeah, and that's what I was kind of thinking. I'm. I'm guessing for those that have had fetishes, there may be that feeling of like even a foot fetish, like, well, if that was my fetish, now I've got to like totally avoid that completely. And I, I just think there's some middle ground here that like, if as part of your healthy sexuality with your spouse, you Appreciate their feet. And that's kind of a trigger for you, but it leads to you as a couple, engaging. I can just see it. Having a role without just feeling like, oh, I shouldn't even looked at her feet. Like, well, if it's part of engaging with your spouse, okay. But it's always coming back to that question of, is it leading me to health or unhealth? And if, as you're getting healthier and connecting better with your spouse, that's a part of it, I think there's room for that. I mean, I even think of things like, people in group. I've heard of jewelry, could be a fetish, the smell of someone's hair, things like that. That could be a part of what you're drawn to about your spouse. Don't beat yourself up over that still being part of what's becoming healthy for you. But I agree with you, Heather. I think, by and large, they lose their power in our story because it's like, that's not what I need anymore to feel those feelings.

Right.

Yeah.

I think of the statement you've made many times, Nick, that arousal is amoral. Like, it's not something that's bad per se. It's what we do with that and how we lead out from that. And so if that is something like. And I'm saying that just to try to diminish shame, that maybe there is a foot fetish there, but that, again, the arousal piece by itself is amoral. It's not something that makes you this terrible, broken, awful person. Like, it's what you do with that or don't do with with that that leads to health or unhealth.

Yeah. Okay, so we have another question here. That this was sent in anonymously. It says, in life, we make goals. Career, education, financial, et cetera. But how can we make marital sex life goals? Is this okay? What would this look like?

Totally think it's okay. I think sexuality is an arena that fits under the banner of our marriage. And if we want to grow in emotional intimacy, if we want to grow with financial goals, if we want to grow with parenting goals, like, to me, it's totally a place where you can create goals. I think that's totally okay. From where I sit. Makes total sense to me. What would it look like? I think, again, we've hit this a number of times, just conversation, having conversations. And maybe, you know, I can see there being value. And this I know, can be part of going through a resource like ours, like Connected, where you can both establish what your as our Friend Mo Isom says sexpectations, right? You can, like, list those out. What are things that you want or expect from your sex life? And I know in Unraveled, we have the assessment that both spouses can take that. Where are you now? Where would you like to be? And when both spouses go through that, you can compare answers. And what happens is that then creates a conversation of like, oh, I didn't realize that you did value this or you don't value that. What are some things that you'd like to see change or move or grow? And so I think that if you can almost have this, like, planning meeting where you come together, and these are some of the new things that we'd like to explore. Maybe some of these are some of the new rhythms that we want to have with our sex life and then give it a trial period to just try it out. I think once you do that, you can kind of go into it with just open hands and pursue it. I just don't ever think it's wrong to make a goal to get healthier and grow closer together as a married couple.

Yeah. Let me kind of provide the other side of that. And I want to be clear at the beginning to say, I still think a goal could be good, but we should be careful. And this is spoken as a three on the Enneagram, an achiever that loves numbers and measuring things by numbers. If. If we make a goal in our marriage sexuality that's about frequency or how many times we should be having sex, I think that could be really dangerous because then it becomes more about achieving the goal than it does about engaging and connecting as a couple. And it may the danger of maybe it's not a shared goal. Maybe just something you set like, well, this would be good for us. And on the other side, too, even if, as a couple, you say, well, hey, it's our goal to have sex once a week. Goals tend to create for a lot of us, especially those threes on the Enneagram, kind of that pass, fail feeling of, we didn't have sex this week. What's wrong? We failed. It was bad. Where Maybe it was just a busy time in the home. Maybe she was on her period and it just wasn't the right timing. So I would just be really careful about goals that involve a numeric measurement of whether or not we were connecting as a couple. But if it's goals about my goal is that my spouse really enjoys sex. My goal, our goal as a couple is that we would both rate our sex life as at least a four out of five or better. Those sorts of things that have more to do with our enjoyment, our coupleship, our other centeredness, I think could be really healthy. I would just be cautious with putting numbers on it and then creating that as we're trying to hit some number.

I also think that this shouldn't be necessarily a standalone goal, but that in this, that if you're going to make a plan, some goal around your sex life, that you should also have a goal that includes your emotional health and relational things. And what am I doing that is just completely serving my spouse. You know, those other things that I could see would go together in this plan, but on its own, I don't think that. I mean, I think that you could do better having a broader scope.

And I think goals change and so revisiting it. If you do set a goal with your sex life in marriage, revisit it. I mean, come back to it. Don't just say like, okay, we're gonna do this for a year. Ready, go. You know, it's like, well, what if after week one, it's like, no, this isn't working, so be willing and humble enough to come back to it. All right, next question. Was sent in by Nicole A little bit longer. This is to give some context. My husband and I grew up at the height of the purity culture phenomenon, but he turned to pornography a few years ago while trying to treat a father wound from his childhood. Great self awareness there. He's healed from that a lot thanks to counseling and his seven pillars group. He's been sober for a year and a half now. But he struggles to let go and really embrace sex. With me, it hasn't been easy for him to just flip the switch and believe that sex in the context of God's plan is a beautiful thing. On some level, he still can't shake the feeling that it's dirty and wrong. It's always been associated with brokenness and shame in his mind, even within the context of marriage. What can my husband do to increase his desire for sex in our marriage? And what can I do to help?

This is a great question, and I think that it's probably more common than what people think. And I think that it goes back to the brain aspects that we talk about all the time. But it seems like if a person's brain has been conditioned to think a certain way about sex or anything that's related to sex, then their brain, especially if they found healing, is still gonna have to go through the process of rewiring that thought process when it comes to sex. And one of the hardest things I think that we will ever do or venture in is changing our negative core beliefs. And it's, it's a hard process, it's a doable process, but it takes time and consistency and, and really I think that a lot of people, they want to do it, but they, and they start down that path, but then it becomes work or something that they're not seeing a result right away. And, and that's why I encourage people to pick one thing. You know, even if it's, if, if your view of sex is connected somehow to your negative self talk or something, what is it? What messages could you be telling yourself that would help to rewrite the way you view sex? Or even if it's something that you would remind yourself about sex, that, that God created sex as this wonderful, beautiful thing that is unique between me and my wife. And just rehearse those things. Just pick one thing, rehearse it for a month. Every time those negative thoughts creep in, rehearse it. Because I think that that is going to do a lot to change those neural pathways in a person's brain.

Yeah, I was thinking of again our guest Sheila Ray Gregoire and what her survey found about women. Because I would think that men's brains are probably the same that when women lived under a sense that they had to provide duty sex, there was pressure to have at a certain amount that it, it really caused them to be even less interested and not enjoy it as much versus when that changed and they were in a relationship where a husband said, if you don't feel like it, we don't have to. There's no pressure. It's fine. That their brain actually kind of re engaged and said, well, now I find myself wanting it because it's free and it's my will and my choice to do it. I think for men, that same thing could take place if we've grown up in a culture that tells us, well, you're a man and macho men should want sex all the time. And if a guy is, there's a spectrum there. For some guys, maybe that is how they're wired and others it's the need. Just they don't feel it as frequently. But if they're beating themselves up feeling like why don't I want it? That that feeling of what's wrong with me? Their brain's going to probably be even less inclined to want to engage because of the fear that there's something wrong with me or having shame around It. So I think just giving permission, like, it's okay, let's have sex when we want. And if it's infrequent, it's infrequent and just kind of take the pressure off and see if the brain in healthy relationship doesn't move towards the spouse. So then I'd say with that, the other thing, and I've heard you mention this a lot on the podcast, Trevor, is it really is okay to try to plan the engagement of healthy sexuality and marriage to say, you know, on, on our Friday date night or it's. It's Monday evening because the kids all go to bed early or whatever rhythm of life you're in if you can kind of plan ahead of time. And now the brain knows, okay, we're kind of preparing for this. We're doing what we need to, to have our physical body be ready to be mentally in the right headspace to, you know, minimize distractions. And then engaging around that plan, I think can help too. Because if we're always just waiting to be quote unquote in the mood and have this spontaneous, incredible encounter, I think the same thing can happen where it's like, well, am I in the mood enough and do I really want versus just saying, hey, Friday night we're going to spend this couple time and the plan is for it to lead to sexual intimacy. And if, if one or the other of us isn't on in the moment, we're just going to focus on the other person and that's fine. Like, I think that's something a couple could try and see if that creates a little more rhythm in their, in their relationship.

I just feel like I just. So you know, Nicole, if you're listening, just how seen and I feel like heard you are, that this is something that a lot of people struggle with. You guys are not alone. The purity culture, which I wouldn't even say I grew up in the purity culture phenomenon. However, I heard purity culture drilled into my brain from as long as I can remember in the church. And so of course you would feel this way if you struggle with sexual brokenness. I think any of us who grew up in the church and had this still have that part of our brain, whether it's. It's a large part or a smaller part, that somehow this is wrong and what I'm engaging in. The other thing that comes to mind is just how our brain needs to have new experiences in order to rewrite these negative messages that we believe. And I don't really know how to do that or how to even answer that in this context, but just understanding that having sex with your spouse is part of that, engaging in that sexual. And maybe it's going slow and affirming your spouse, this is okay. This is something that God created for us. I do feel valued by you right now. I do feel loved and pursued by you. I just think that that's such an important piece. And so I don't know what that looks like, Nicole, to specifically your context, but I think that's important. And then the last thing is just anyone who's listening. This is what could be so damaging about the, like, don't have sex. That's it. That's all we say. We need to do better in the church. We need to do a lot better when it comes to trying to get people to understand what sexual health looks like. Not just a pass fail. Am I pure? Am I not as I get into it? Because it's that thing and I know I'm going on, but like, it's that thing of like, don't do it, don't do it, don't do it, don't do it. You said yes to someone at the altar. Okay, have fun. And it's like, no, no, no. Like, someone help. You know, I don't understand. Like, we need to do a better job of preparing people that sexuality is not just a switch that gets flipped after you get married. It's something, something that we carry throughout our entire life. And it's something to be fostered and prepared for that right context.

I remember when Michelle and I were engaged and going through some of our pre marriage stuff, one of the books we read, and I can't recall which one, so I apologize, but the book encouraged for married couples to pray together before having sex. And I remember as a 21 year old just thinking that was the dumbest idea. Like in that moment, that is not what I'm looking to do. Like, you know, we're, I'm excited. Like we're gonna get it on. But now in recovery and, you know, experienced in marriage, like, that makes a lot more sense to me. And that's what I would encourage this couple. Like, if it's just something that's still, when you enter into it, you feel dirty, some shame. Pray together and just acknowledge that and thank God that like, we believe you made us for this. This is a gift you've given us. Help us to enter into it for your glory. Help us to be here to serve and bring pleasure to the other and just praying for God to be glorified because it's his idea and his creation. I think that could remind both of us and our brains that what we are engaging in has been not only created by God, but blessed by Him. And if we can bring that mindset in consistently, I think over time that those feelings of being dirty or shameful will change because we've really invited the Holy Spirit to purify that process.

Yep. So good.

That is a great segue into this final question from Diego that says, what are the spiritual benefits of healthy sex?

I. I think that is a great question and a great name. By the way, Diego, thanks for letting us use your name.

Everyone else's names. You suck. Sorry. Sherry, Conrad, Jackson.

It makes me think of the, you know, elf and Francisco. Fun name, Francisco. Anyway, I digress. You know, it's. It's so beautiful to me that in Genesis chapter one, when God says, let us make human beings in our image, that's where we find male and female. So this distinctness of our gender and really sexuality is there in God's created order. Saying in male and female, their. Their separateness. I see my image, which is also where then at the end of Genesis 2, it's that union of the male and female that's like the full picture of God coming together in a way that is so profound. Because what we've talked about a lot on the podcast is a true definition of intimacy isn't just sex. That intimacy is being fully known and fully loved and accepted for who I am. And I think at its core, that's what marriage sex is supposed to be. That I am fully exposed to another who knows everything about me and chooses willingly to engage in an act of love and self giving and pleasure in a way that glorifies God in our union of male and female. And so I think just being aware of that, like there is something special and sacred about this that God calls us into and that somehow, maybe going back to the question from Nicole, that when we're having sex, God looks at that and says, that's like my image of male and female together and the oneness that comes through it. So I know not every time a married couple has sex does it feel like this incredible spiritual experience. I mean, that's not always on our brains. Let's. Let's be honest. But I think if we can take a step back at times and remember that, it's like, that's. That is pretty cool, you know, and. And it is, to me, it's very significant that just 10 verses later in Genesis chapter three is where we find that Adam and Eve are covering themselves up and their shame because they've moved away from God. And so I think that is something else to keep in mind that in a lot of ways my sexual intimacy with my spouse can be a reflection of my spiritual intimacy with God. That if I'm not feeling connected with him, if I'm not receiving his love, if I'm letting sin or poor choices separate me from that relationship because I'm just. I'm being prideful or willful or whatever the case might be, it's probably going to affect the intimacy I have with my spouse as well. And so I think seeing the two as deeply connected is important. And then the other thing I would say is just the way in which the marriage bed is an opportunity to live out a Christ likeness of saying, how can I be in this for you? How can I look to serve you willingly in the way that I relate to you? And that's true both for the male and the female. And I would emphasize for the man too. We need to be there saying, I'm in this for your good and your pleasure. And I know that's not in purity culture what we were always given. So I think that's what it's a chance to practice that Christ likeness in putting your needs above my own and believing that in doing that in a loving relationship, my needs do get met far deeper than they ever could if I went about pursuing my own needs. So if through our sex we can be practicing or discipling ourselves in Christ likeness, that's a pretty amazing thing.

It's a fun place to do those things. I think what comes to mind, and I hope I'm not stealing your answer because I feel like you might say something about it, Heather, but the chemicals that get released in your brain are really important. And those are chemicals that God created to be released at climax in your brain. And I know that the chemicals which. Can you just tell me what are they?

Oxytocin and vasopressin.

Okay, so here's what, here's what, here's what I think you please correct me, but just that those produce a sense of. So when I in Genesis, the two will become one flesh. That idea of being joined together in unity, being on the same page, loving and caring for each other. I think that sex and the chemicals that is released when we do have sex with our spouse is it promotes more unity and more care and more protection and more power pursuit of each other. And you know, I think of Ephesians 5, where it talks about the idea of honoring and respecting and really submitting to each other's needs. And I think that as we do that, as you talked, Nick, we are more Christ like, and at the same time, the chemicals in our brain are reinforcing the same behavior. And so even at like a neurological level, biological level, at a chemical level in your brain, it's reinforcing what God's intent is for the design of marriage. And that, to me, is great. So I think that that's something that you can see, maybe is something that's happening in the brain and in the body, but is something that is absolutely tied to a spiritual reality that we see in Scripture.

Yeah, that was really good.

Thanks for helping me.

I couldn't have done it without you.

Yeah.

But I think that it's even the behavior that comes from that. So you did a great job explaining all those brain chemicals. But I'll tell you, the behaviors that follow orgasm and healthy sex with your spouse, and the behaviors are so great because when we release those chemicals, for men, it makes them want to mate, guard. It makes them want to protect their spouse from harm. And for women, when they release those chemicals, it makes them want to nest, and it makes them feel content with their spouse and their life, and they feel safe. And that, to me, is such a great reminder of God's design for sex within marriage. You know, this. This unique relationship where you, you know, have this relationship with one person that you don't have with anybody else, I think is just amazing.

This was a really cool episode. I like the idea that it was just so thematic. And what's so great is that even though these individuals sent in specific questions to their scenario, this is something that so many people are dealing with and so many people are thinking about. And so you asking questions does absolutely help. We love these episodes because we get to just jump through all these cool questions and all these real life things that are going on, and it helps fuel more episodes. You know, we'll have more and more of these. So if you want to submit questions for future FAQ episodes and get our take on them, there's a couple ways to do that. You can email your questions to podcasturedesire.org or you can message or DM us with your questions. Thanks for the conversation, guys. And Heather, thanks for being with us today.

Yeah, these are great questions.

And wherever you're at on your journey, pure desire is here to help create a roadmap for your healing. If you or someone you know is impacted by sexual brokenness, or betrayal trauma. Go to PureDesire.org and let's start the healing journey today. Don't forget to subscribe to the podcast and drop us a review. It helps others find the podcast. Each week we put out new content to help you on the road to healing and freedom. And lastly, never stop being healthy.