228 - Matrix of Addiction

You're listening to the Pure Desire Podcast, your safe place to find hope, healing, and freedom from sexual addiction, betrayal, and relationship issues. What is up, people? I'm your host, Trevor Windsor, and you're listening to episode 228 of the Pure Desire podcast. Here joining me as always, is my co host, Nick Stumbo.

Smeagol. Smeagol. Why does it hurts us? Oh, gosh, Smeagol.

If I just. I'm thinking about the person who has absolutely no idea what you're doing, they're.

Gonna be really weirded out. Oh, my gosh.

They're like, I thought they said this podcast wasn't good. These guys were, like, helpful.

No?

Lord of the Rings.

Yes, obviously.

Gollum, specifically. I'm just gonna talk about what we did, and you're gonna make it. Okay.

Sounds great.

We had one of our clinicians and speakers, Bob Vandermeer, on today to talk about a tool that we use in our recovery resources called the Matrix of Addiction.

Yeah, great tool. And that intro. Just want to give a shout out to my online friend Dennis, who I know is a huge Lord of the Rings fan. Dennis, I don't know if this has happened to you, Trevor, but through Pure Desire, sometimes we've connected with people like online, Facebook, wherever, and we've never met, but you can feel a sense of kinship because, like, not only do you have the Pure Desire thing in common, but then they're, like, commenting on all your posts and you realize, wow, we have a lot of shared interest. So for Dennis, I needed to do a Lord of the Rings intro. And obviously my voice representation skills for Golem were very poor, but give yourself.

A little bit of credit. They were, like, subpar.

Yeah, I'm good at that. I'm very comfortable with that description. But, no, if you've watched the Lord of the Rings, there's this interesting character, Gollum, who actually once was a hobbit, and then the ring corrupted him, and he's become kind of this deformed monsterly creature. But there's two sides of him. There's Smeagol, who is what you might call the good or the hobbit part of him, and then Gollum, what he's become because of the Ring's corruption. And there is a time where as he's working with the other two hobbits, with Frodo and Sam, they. The Smeagol side of him kind of comes back, but then he gets hurt, and Gollum side of him kind of calls him back, like, hey, you've gone through something hard And I know how to take care of you. Come back to me and we'll fix this the way we know how to fix things. And I've been thinking about that in terms of the matrix of addiction. That that's, I think, how a lot of us feel that there's this life we live where it's the good part of us, if you will. And we work hard at our jobs and we're good at our relationships and we fulfill our responsibilities. But there's kind old shadow side of us that's been corrupted. And what's kind of scary about it is in a way it works. It's been able to fix things in life that made us uncomfortable or hurt us or caused pain. And we get wooed back to it in kind of a systematic way, even, if you will. And that, my friend, is the matrix of addiction. That it's what is that pathway that takes us from the person we want to be to being back. We're like, oh crap, I did the thing I promised I'd never do again. What's wrong with me? That it's not just a snap the fingers that happened. It's a process of being wooed back to that old pattern. And we want to see it because when we see it, we can get the tools and the handholds to work on it. And I think in this episode with Bob Vandermeer, just a ton, ton of great information on how we can all get a handhold on this pattern in our own lives.

Yeah, absolutely. And it's great to have Bob too, with the perspective he has as a clinician, walking a lot of people through this tool as well. So it definitely is a good one. A few things before we get going. Subscribe to the podcast and give us a review on any platform that you listen. It helps other people find the podcast. Also, you can follow us on social media. We're posting stuff every single week, trying to just help people in their recovery and healing journey. And then we want to remind people we put out, In August of 2020, we put out our Sexual Integrity 101 video course, an eight week course. And we just want to remind people that this is a super helpful tool when starting the conversation in your church or community on sexual integrity.

Yeah, the material has been out over a year. That's kind of hard to believe in some ways. I think it. It came out a little covertly during COVID if you will, and didn't have as much public access because churches just weren't meeting. But yeah, that's really the heart behind it is to create and offer people a tool that could be used by anyone. It could be used by parents that are just trying to get a handhold on what temptations and pressures are their kids facing. It could be viewed by the struggler or the addict that wants to know what's going on in their brain. It would be useful for spouses who are trying to understand the trauma they're facing and where it's coming from, how to understand the choices their spouse is making, or just for churches, for leaders, for pastors, for others that say, this maybe isn't really my issue, but I want to help. And it will create some clarity around what is addiction? Why is it not just a try harder fix to stop it? And what does lasting recovery look like? And so there just aren't a lot of tools like this out there that a church or a family or a small group could use to understand sexual brokenness and recovery in a really holistic way. So our team had a blast putting it together. The testimonies in there are just really relatable, and the experts do a wonderful job at painting a picture of health. So if you haven't seen it, man, you're 14 months. No, what now? 16 months behind the ball. So get going. And I think you'll really be glad you did.

And a lot of us don't know where to start when it comes to starting the conversation. And that's why we want you to start with Sexual Integrity 101. All right, if you do want to get Sexual Integrity 101, just go to PureDesire.org 101. All right, here's our episode with Robert Vandermeer on the matrix of addiction. Bobby V. Welcome back to the podcast, man.

My pleasure.

Glad to have you.

Hey, thank you. Glad to be had.

Can we make it more awkward? You ready?

Yeah. Ready, set, go.

All right, we're excited to have you back. Today we're going to talk through an important piece to understanding sexual addiction. And really what it is is it's the matrix of addiction. And as soon as I hear that word, I think of, ooh, matrix four. I think of neo Red, blue pill, blue pill.

It's not.

That's right. That's right. This is not what we're talking about.

That's not related to that.

Not related to the matrix whatsoever. But this is something that shows up in our clinical work. It's something that we see in our resources as well. And so we wanted to talk about it because we think it's really important to the recovery process. So first things first. It's definitely not neomorpheus. Red pill, blue pill. But, Bob, what is the matrix of addiction? What are we talking about?

Yeah. Now I just want to make matrix jokes. I want to talk about glitches in the matrix.

Yeah, yeah.

Deja vu. Yeah. The matrix of addiction is a tool that we use to help addicts primarily, but to help people understand the rituals and the patterns that they get into with not just addictive behavior, but the stuff that's leading up to the addictive behavior.

Right.

Because we know that. That for an addict, like, acting out is not an isolated event. And so the matrix is something that helps them to understand really, what leads up to all of that and also what follows it. Because it's not isolated before, not isolated after. Like, it's part of this. This larger thing.

Yeah, yeah. It's understanding that, you know, relapses don't happen in a vacuum. We don't just fall into relapse. And I know early in my recovery journey, that was part of what I was worried about, because our marriage was really on the brink, and it felt like if I have another relapse, my wife might leave. And I don't know that I can prevent it because I had looked back at my history, and it just would feel like I was cruising along, and then, bloop. I'd have this bad week or whatever. I'd act out, feel horrible, you know, go through the binge purge cycle, and then get back on track. And things would go along well for a few weeks or a few months, then, bloop, have another relapse. And I was just terrified that, like, I was going to have another one of those relapses and wouldn't see it coming. And I think for me, that matrix of addiction process using that tool was one of the most helpful parts of my first seven pillars group. Just because I saw with real clarity, it was like, wow, there is some huge predictability to the steps I take, and they weren't always exactly the same. And I think that's why I had been blind to it and why I was in some denial, because I had rationalized so many small behaviors for so long that I hadn't seen the way that they were preconditions to a relapse. And once I started to kind of see this cycle, I was like, oh, my word. That in a way, maybe in a good way, I felt foolish. It's like, how have I been so blind to this pattern that sometimes would Start days or even weeks before of just going through some of the same rituals. And I know we've talked about that on the podcast, Bob. That process of addiction that involves kind of those rituals and preoccupation and this is just a tool to help you see those so that you can prevent that cycle from taking place.

Yeah, I just, I mean the way I would describe it is this is just your relapse pattern. You're looking at it from really almost like 30,000 foot view looking down on it. So if matrix of addiction makes you think of, you know, the matrix or is confusing, just think of it that way. I think that way is helpful. The relapse pattern.

Yeah, and we're going to walk through it here obviously more, you know, but it's, it's circular, it's cyclical. And, and we get that pattern then is cyclical. And so we're using the term relapse. But even like the matrix of addiction also applies to acting out. So like to differentiate those two things. Right. The relapse, relapse is what we do when we've had a period of sobriety. Acting out is when we're still just regularly doing that. And the matrix of addiction I think applies to both of those. Like if we're caught in the pattern of acting out, we're still in this cycle in the matrix in those terms, like in the cycle that's just perpetuating forward. But even if we have a period of sobriety and we end up then over here in relapse after a period of sobriety, then it's still that same kind of cycle. And so we're trying to be able to identify those factors.

Yeah, so you're getting into it a little bit here, Bob, but talk through. How does the matrix of addiction help us understand our relapses and, and why is it so important in recovery?

Yeah, sure. This analogy might fall short.

I'm so excited for it.

Yes, excellent. Let's give it a, let's take a run at it. Like if we're going to eat a meal. Right.

You have me so far, by the way.

Okay, perfect, perfect. Like the meal, a lot of times we think of that as this isolated event. But like in order to have that meal, like there's this, there's a whole precursor of things that have to happen. Right. Like we're waking up, we're expending energy. Like because we're expending energy, like our body is using up these resources and because of that we're slowly getting hungry. And then Basically, we can either plan what we're going to eat, Right. And so then, like, we start thinking about, oh, man, I'm starting to feel hungry, so what am I going to have today? Like, and so we start planning out, oh, I think I'm going to get that Popeyes spicy chicken sandwich. Like, so we were planning for that. Where's the nearest Popeyes? Like, okay, can I.

You just engaged Nick, by the way.

I don't.

Illustration.

You got. I don't need to go near a Popeyes today. However, I can make an excuse to go that route to end up near the Popeyes so that it's convenient to get some Popeyes. Right. And then we go and we do all of these things. We change our. The course of our day. So we end up in that neighborhood, so we end up on that street so we can get some Popeyes. But then we're like, oh, shoot, I know. My doctor told me my cholesterol is too high, and I told my wife that, too. So I better not bring these. This Popeyes home. I. I just need to eat this Popeyes in my car in the parking lot and then find a trash can conveniently located so I can dispose of the evidence before I get home. Right, Right. So there's that, but then there's also, sometimes I start to feel hungry, and you know what? I'm just not going to think about that. I'm not going to think about that. I'm hungry, and then I'm going through my day, and all of a sudden, like, I walk past, you know, a bag of cookies, and then I'm like, oh, I'm hungry.

Cookies.

Right. It's not premeditated. I don't plan it all out. But because I'm not thinking about it, I still end up doing this.

Because you didn't plan.

Because I didn't plan, I end up eating these cookies.

Yeah.

And so I think, like, in terms of relapse and the matrix of addiction, it's kind of like that, right? It starts way back here.

Yeah.

And we start, like, we're just going through the course of our day, and we're. And we're depleting ourselves of. Of neurochemicals. We're, you know, we're having difficult conversations with people, and then we start to feel kind of this discomfort. Right. This grumbling. And we either start to then ritualize of, like, okay, how can I end up at Popeyes? You know, how can I end up alone with a device so that I can look at pornography and masturbate or we don't think about it, and then all of a sudden we, you know, we're in the bathroom with our phone alone and.

Yeah, and that's why this is so helpful, is because it helps me see that relapse doesn't start at the point of relapse. You know, Nick, I've heard you say this before where, like, being, being healthy is not being able to sit in front of the computer late at night and say, I'm not going to look at porn and I don't look at porn and I'm successful and I move forward, you know, with that day or that night. What it is is making plans before you even get to that point to set yourself up for success. And I think that that's what this tool helps you do.

Yeah.

That helps you see that relapse is not just I had a triggering sexual thought. It's tying it to what happened during that week, what happened during that day, maybe in the last hour. That triggered me emotionally. That pushes me into exploring the really well, preparing myself for when that sexual trigger happens. Then relapse is going to happen.

Recognizing that those patterns are not random or disconnected. I mean, even with your Popeyes illustration, Bob, if someone really loves Popeyes and has been there before, this is probably a kind of pattern. They've gone through a lot. And if they know for a health reason they have to make a change, they're needing to expose their normal pattern and make a change. And so for most of us, though, our matrix may be different. I think we all have. And using that illustration of desires or appetites is great because we all have desires and appetites that over time, because of our history and past choices, we have developed ways of walking through those all the way to acting out with pornography and. Or masturbation. And that's a very, very powerful chemical sequence in the brain as well that it's starting to seek out. And so if you can identify where does this pattern start versus we tend to be focused on where does the pattern end, then we can really start to make some traction.

Yeah, and that's just a really good principle for life in general. Like, if you can reverse engineer where you want to go or who you want to be and start doing those things now, that set you up for that. That principle applies outside of recovery as well.

Sure, yeah, I did. We don't. We don't eat the Popeyes just because we like Popeyes.

Yeah, I mean, that's, that's part of it. But it's because Popeyes, Popeyes is good.

Yeah, it's 798 if you get two sandwiches.

It's a great illustration. I know you were nervous at first, but you did a good job.

Oh, thank you. We liked it.

Yeah.

Okay.

Yep, it did. We'll see if the listeners. It lands, but it landed here. So the matrix of addiction includes a couple of things as you kind of map it out. And the two things are actions and excuses. And that's what creates this cycle of our relapse pattern. So what are some examples of an action and then an excuse that basically perpetuates that relapse pattern?

Yeah, so, I mean, things like that include isolation. Right. So maybe an action is isolation. And. And so an excuse for that could be like, man, I've had a long day. I just need some time alone. I just need some me time. Right. And so the excuse then is I'm pulling away from. I'm sorry, the actions. I'm pulling away from people and I'm isolating. And it's like, yeah, but I deserve it. Or I've been around a lot of people today or, you know, I've had like a long day of some justification kids or. Yeah, sure. And. And then like, another action could be, like driving to some place that maybe it's not in your inner circle of, like, things acting out. Maybe it's in your middle. Middle circle of things that, you know are dangerous, vulnerable kind of places. And so you're. So maybe the action is driving to this particular store, but the excuse is, oh, well, you know, we needed. We needed some new trash bag liners or. Right. Whatever it is. Yeah. And so, like, you're going there, you know, it's a dangerous place. You know, that's part of, like a history of. Of acting out. Yet I'm just going to find a reason to go do it and, and try and sell that to myself and others.

As you were saying that one of the things that in my pattern is it wouldn't be like going out of my house to do something. It would be. I feel like I want to isolate, pull away, make that excuse. Which then leads me to, oh, HBO Max. I'll just pull that app up. And I know that there's a lot of stuff on there that's not healthy for me, but I really need some me time and I want to watch some Sopranos, you know what I mean? And so I get into that and the excuse is, well, it's safe. I'm not watching pornography. The door is open, My wife knows I'm in Here, whatever. And we make those excuses. So I think a lot of people, it's not just go out and seek out sex, prostitutes, whatever, like that. It could just be even what you watch and consume.

Sure. And I think that's what's so valuable about this tool, is it? It helps us see where does our pattern start. In very legitimate places in most regards. I mean, for me, patterns like procrastination just needing a little bit of escape. And so being online, playing fantasy sports, or spending extra time at home alone just in the name of getting a break and things in and of themselves aren't a problem. It's the way it's connected to everything else. And so I also love the two pieces. That excuse portion was so illuminating for me because I think you start to see and hear the dialogue that you've maybe fed yourself so long, you aren't even aware of the excuses you're making. The other thing I'd say about it for group members, and I know I was in this place, and I think a lot of group members are early on, it can be hard to see the excuses for excuses because it doesn't feel like an excuse. It seems legitimate. And so I will tell guys in groups like, well, when you are procrastinating or making that plan, whatever it is, just write down what are the thoughts that are coming to mind? Because even if you can't see it as an excuse right now, it's a justification. It's something you're telling yourself that makes this step. Okay, now when we get all the way down to making a choice to view porn, the excuses are a little more obvious there. But in these early stages, when you're identifying those actions that don't seem wrong in and of themselves. Yeah, I've just had a lot of people say, well, I don't. I don't make an excuse for that. It's like, well, what's. What are the words you're telling yourself? Because that's really a huge key in seeing the pattern.

Yeah, there's. There's this. There's this magician TV show called the. Called the Carbonaro Effect.

Yeah.

And. Oh, he does like this incredible stuff. There's one episode, so I need to buy your cup.

Yeah, do it.

And. And he's like. He's pretending to be a barista. And these people come in and they're ordering a drink, and he's pouring the coffee. Like, he's pouring the coffee into a cup. And then he lets go of the cup. He's like, ow. He lets go of the cup. And the cup is still floating there while he's pouring the coffee in. He's like, ow. And then he grabs it and, like, hands it to the customer. And then the customers, like, look on their faces like, I don't.

What.

What just happened?

And then.

And then.

And then he goes, well, the cup was hot. I had to let go of it. And they're like, no, but it was floating. Yeah, well, yeah, it was hot. I had to let go of it.

Yeah, right.

Like, that was. I had to let go of. It was burning my hand. Like, I feel like that's what we do with the excuses.

Yeah.

Is like, we jump from here to there. It's like, I'm tired. Yeah, of course. Like, that's. That's legitimate. That's valid. You're working hard. You're tired. Yeah. But then we jump over here to. So I deserve to isolate and withdraw from my family. Right. Like, and then we say, well, yeah, the cup was hot.

Yeah.

Like, yeah, I was tired, so that's what I needed to do. Right. And. And like. And so there's this denial, delusion, and blame, like, mix of things where. Like, what you're saying, Nick, it's. It's. It's justifiable.

Yeah.

Like, it's. We're taking this valid thing, but then we're. We're drawing this conclusion that for us, seems, like, justified and inevitable and almost logical. The cup was hot. I had to let go of it. Like, I worked a long day. I had to isolate.

Yeah.

Like, I went and. And played fantasy football and, you know, and disappeared because I had a long day. Like, as if these were the only options. Right. And I think part of the matrix of addiction helps us to see kind of this denial, delusion, blame, these lines that we're drawing as for what they are, that it's not like. No, that was a magic trick.

Right. One thing for me, and I knew, and this tool helped me identify it, that I would start going on social media, which, ironically, was part of my job. And so it wasn't even. I was making excuses to, like, be on it. It's that I would get on it for work with, you know, Twitter and Instagram, Facebook, whatever. And then I would linger. And it's the. It's the lingering that I made excuses for. It's like, well, I already did what I needed to do. I scheduled the posts or whatever. But, you know, and then I just. And that's where it's like, well, I'm already on it. Yeah, I deserve to take a 10 minute break. Which, let's be honest, 10 minutes turns into 30 minutes of just, you know, the infinite scroll.

Yeah.

And so it's not even. I just, I want to make that distinction because for me, sometimes it's a legitimate reason. Or like maybe that thing, maybe Popeyes is on your way to work every.

Single day and maybe you need lunch.

You do need lunch. Like they're all legitimate things, right? I mean, the fact that the cup was hot is a legitimate thing. And yeah, I mean, that's just great. I, I'm just thinking about that show. That show is so good.

Yeah.

Is it still on?

I think so.

Can we talk about it for a second?

I'm just kidding. Well, no, and, and honestly, like the thing that is so incredible about that show is that people buy those excuses. They're like, oh, oh, okay. Yeah, that makes sense. Then you're right.

I'll just grab this magic cup from you.

The cup was hot, so you had to let go of it. And, and, and in, and in this matrix, like in the excuses that we use, like some of the gaslighting that we do in this, like other people do buy it, they're like, that's a little odd. But I guess that makes sense.

I tell people and maybe it's just me, but I think for a lot of us. Look for when you're using the word just. Because I can use the word just to justify just about anything.

Wow. Pastoral alliteration.

That's. I've used that in a lot of surveys. That's an oldie for me. But that idea, like it's just going to be a few minutes. It's just this one time. It's just a little bit. It's just for now. It's just because I'm tired. It's just. And is whenever I hear myself using that word just like there's one of my excuses?

Yeah, sure.

Because that's a justification. So to look for that. Bob, let's play out what the matrix might look like for someone. We've been giving some examples, but could you try to walk through maybe an example from start to finish of what would be a good example of the lowest common denominator where someone's matrix might start and the excuse and then just kind of walk through until they're at relapse and then the binge purge cycle?

Yeah, sure. So I mean if we think about this as a circle, I think in general for me, I think of the matrix this way and I know that we kind of maybe some of Us practically use the tool a little bit different, but the circle still completes.

Yeah.

For me, the matrix usually starts with either, like, the neurochemical part of someone who is. Who is continually acting out, and they don't have sobriety and their dopamine levels are up and down and they've got this dopamine low. And then, like, it starts with the discomfort that comes from that. And so they start seeking basically, like, relief from that. Right. So it starts there or for the person that. That is not still caught in the relapse or, sorry, in just constant acting out. And it's more of like this isolated relapse. Then it's. Then it's pain, fear, shame that's coming up in their life and they're seeking to deal with that discomfort. Right. But basically, like, something's happening where they're starting to feel uncomfortable, and so they're looking for some way to deal with that. And so then it might start out where, like, they do go to do something legitimate, right. Like, like go on to social media to do some work, and they stay there just a little bit too long and. And they start to get a little bit of that dopamine release because of that. Right. But they haven't looked at any pornography. They haven't done anything that is right or wrong. Right. And. But then from there, now they've kind of started this pattern to where now they start to, like, they started to. To sexualize, maybe people, like, they go out, like to go. To go. Go to the grocery store. Now they realize they're sexualizing people in the grocery store as opposed to just getting the stuff that they need and that sexualization. Then as they leave the grocery store now, they're even feeling more of that kind of amped up. And so they think, oh, wow, what day is today? Oh, today's Tuesday. Okay. Yeah. My wife's not home on Tuesday at this time because she's picking up the kids from school.

Right.

And so, you know, I think I'm just going to go home and. And be able to relax a little bit right before she gets home. But then they get home and, like, they get their. And they're like, you know, I'm just going to hop on whatever HBO or I'm going to. I'm going to get back online. And yeah, and I saw something actually really interesting when I was on, you know, on Instagram and go back there. And then as they're doing that, then they started, oh, you know what? Like, this person reminds me of that one particular actress that I. That I like to fantasize about. And then that leads to. I'm going to. Actually, I'm going to. Later on I know my wife's coming home, but later on tonight I'm going to find an excuse to go into the garage, you know, and now they're thinking like about specifically acting out. They're planning, I'm going to go to the garage later so that I can get on my phone because now I want to see if I can find nude pictures of that person. Right, right. And so. And then it comes back and then eventually they end up acting out. Right. They end up on. On either sexualized material or pornography. You know, they end up at what they're acting out. Relapse is.

Yeah.

Maybe it's sexting somebody. Right. Or maybe it's. But they end up at that acting out thing.

Yeah.

And then afterwards they feel bad about it. Yeah, right. They feel shame about that. And now if this person I think is in. Has a. Has momentum in recovery, then after they do that, they're going to put into place the recovery action plan. They're going to make some phone calls, they're going to disclose to their spouse. Right. They're going to do the healthy part of it. If they don't, then that shame is discomfort and they're going to sit with that shame for a few days until they start this whole cycle over again.

Yeah. And I really do think, like, those are the times where my brain at those moments, because it starts with emotional pain or discomfort, as you're saying, it's like my brain remembers the things that I almost wanna forget. That IMDb page for that actress where I can see what movies she's in and I can see what the rating is and then I can. This is from my story, right? Like, this is what I did. So Instagram was a part of it. And then. Cause what that does is it's just these like small kind of nudges in the direction of relaps that over time happen. But it's wild how quickly your brain can remember. Oh, you know what? That one, I still have that DVD. You guys remember DVDs? I still have that DVD of that movie where she's in it. And I remember there's that sex scene one part. And even if you don't, because that's what I like what you were saying, even though I maybe don't go watch it right now, I've like tucked it away back and like put a blanket over and saying, I'll come back later to that Thought. And then you do.

Yeah, yeah.

And I think even in what Bob just described, you could hear like at every stage. And if you've used the tool, we kind of set it up as a circle. And people always ask, like, where do you start? And I always say, wherever you want. Like, just pick a starting place and kind of make your way around the starting point. Doesn't matter as much as that you're seeing the pattern. So what we see is that every stage of that pattern, there's actually an increase of the dopamine hit. It's re engaging a little bit more of our. If we're stuck in acting out or if we're walking in some sobriety but have been addicted, we're getting deeper and deeper, engaged. And I think the value is every person in acting out or addiction thinks they can control it right up until they can't. And every step we're taking, we're losing more and more control. But if we've never really identified this matrix, we don't realize it until it is at that place, like, oh, I did it again and now I'm out of control. And then we're realizing it. But that danger of how self deceptive we can be, that no, I won't go too far this, it'll just be this far, no more. And we do maybe walk away from it for a day or two. Because I think that's what I would miss in my story. It's like, oh, I did it. I only made it to phase three and so I'm okay, but if I didn't do anything more to deal with it, in a sense my brain was still on phase three. Like I was there just. And then a few days later, maybe back at that site or going a little bit deeper and off it would go. I think we can just recognize that everyone thinks they can control it right up until they can't. Then the matrix becomes that clarity of I don't want to start that system because I know where it leads and it's predictable.

And I think it's interesting too that this isn't something that just happens in a day or in an hour. This is something that could over like a two week span happen where something happens at work or something happens at home and then that starts your cycle. And maybe you have those moments of like perceived victory that Nick, you're talking about. But then at the end of two weeks, you ended up relapsing. And so maybe your relapse pattern really is something like that.

Yeah.

And so I just, I Think it's important for people to know that it's not. This is not just a day or a week thing. This could be over an extended period of time.

Yeah, yeah. Some of the ways that help me think of it is like this matrix. Like, you know, if it's circular and we kind of like, laid it out linearly, it's kind of like the faster scale moving down. Right. Like, the further down we get, the more momentum we have. Dr. Carnes, in facing the Shadow, kind of describes it as a boulder at the top of a hill. Like, at the top of it. So this is in the personal craziness index there, the boulder at the top of the hill. But then it starts rolling down the hill. And the further down the hill it gets, the more momentum it picks up. Right?

Yeah.

And it's the same idea, like, Nick, what you're talking about. Whereas they get going and they feel like, oh, no, I can stop this, but the further down the faster scale you get, or the further, further down the hill the boulder gets, like, no, we become powerless to this at some point in it. Right, Right. Where it's got so much momentum and. And it's just so out of control and it's. And it's so beyond just, oh, I can do this in private.

Right.

Then I think that's the thing. It's not beyond, beyond our control that we're stuck in this unless we're trying to do it alone.

Yeah.

Like, if we try to stop that bull or like, stop that momentum by ourselves, then that's like, that's where we.

Which is why it's so important to have a group experience. And that's why we prioritize it here, is because you do have people you can reach out to Right in that moment. And what's great is the longer that you use this, the quicker you're going to notice that pattern and reach out earlier so that you've got four or five other people standing at the top of the hill holding the boulder in place, rather than, we got to catch up to it first and then push it back up. Yeah, well.

And you're going to hear other people share their actions and excuses. And a lot of them, you might not relate to all of them, but some are going to be like, ah, done that one.

I've heard that.

Okay. That. That just provides a ton of clarity in the process. Sure.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's like in group or in counseling when someone comes and they say, I didn't have time to get my work done because you Know, I have a job. Right. Or because I'm married or because I have kids, and it's like, dang, dude, I got three jobs. I'm married. I got kids. Like, so, you know, so we hear those excuses, and we start to know, okay, yes, you do have a job. Yes, your week was busy, right? Yes, it was stressful. Like, yes, there's a pandemic. You know, I mean, yes, yes, yes. And that's not that straight line that immediately leads to, this is why I do this.

Right. So as we're going through this exercise, what are some observations that we pick up on? What are things that come to the surface that we need to pay attention? And just in recovery, if we're in this pattern of relapsing or we're trying to create some sobriety or maintain it for an extended period of time, what are some things that kind of rise to the surface as we go through this exercise?

Yeah. Putting together. Right. This matrix of addiction. One of the things that I think has been helpful is to kind of pair and partner this with the three circles exercise that we do and helping to identify, like, what sobriety is like or what relapse acting out is. And that's the inner circle. The middle circle then, is, you know, areas that have become problematic for us historically that have led us to acting out their. Their vulnerable places. We refer to them as guardrails and the seven pillars. And then outer circle is stuff that we're doing for health and self care. And so if we look at specifically the middle circle, those guardrails, those things that are gray areas for us, we find a lot of helpful information, I think, for the matrix of addiction. Because a lot of that stuff, it's not right or wrong, but it's part of our ritual where we start to do these things and put our. And make justifications for us to put ourselves into vulnerable spots to where then the momentum picks up and we end up acting out. And so I think even using those two tools in conjunction with each other is really helpful. Like, look at what you have in the middle circle and kind of migrate that over to the matrix of addiction infographic worksheet.

Totally.

Yeah. Yeah. To help fill in some of those blanks.

Yeah, yeah.

I always think about how important it is to. And we kind of mentioned it, but to work the process backwards, because I think early on, it's not uncommon for someone to say, I have no idea what my matrix is. I just know I do things I regret and I feel the shame. And then I work really Hard to get better. They can describe the binge purge, but they haven't seen the pathway in. And so to just say we'll work it backwards. If you know what you do is you act out by looking at porn on your phone in the bathroom. What happens prior to that? You know, they might realize, well, yeah, I was wasting a whole bunch of time on Instagram pics that I shouldn't have been watching. Like, okay, what happened before that? Well, I'm using, usually doing it after my wife and I have been fighting. Okay, what happened? Why were you and your wife fighting? Well, because I'm hardly ever home because I'm working too much and I'm tired. Okay, well why are you working too much? Well, I'm over committed to making money and paying for my boat and I'm kind of obsessed, you know. Now you're starting to describe where it starts. Maybe is actually your obsession with a possession or making money or working and you can start to trace it through and go, oh, that becomes clearer. So if you're stuck, work backwards. And again, what we've said, the value of being in a group, hearing others describe a pattern, you're going to see some commonalities. So that's a huge help too.

And I've had group members who I've been a part of this and I've had group members help me with it too. Well, they'll ask a question. Have you noticed the last, you know, however many times you've relapsed that this is a common theme? Like, I'm just picking up on that because you can do that and that's super helpful. And that really can't happen without that group experience where you have other people who are part of that process. I think for me, one of the things that really comes up in this is that I start to identify triggering situations that maybe I otherwise wouldn't think are. Yeah, like if I have this weekly meeting and after every weekly meeting I end up going into the bathroom with my phone and looking at Instagram and then I know that that's part of my ritual, then that to me I need to start identifying what's happening in this weekly meeting every week. That's triggering me. You know, I've heard stories of people who have family that come in from out of town and within that two week span they end up relapsing. Every single year when the family comes in, it's always this one week. And you know, once you go through this exercise, you realize it's the emotions and the stuff I'm dealing with my family comes in preparation for them coming into town. And so I think that's the thing is maybe we don't always understand that emotional pain comes from situations we're completely unaware, and that's what starts our pattern. Another thing too is identifying what devices or even places or scenarios I find myself in deeper down that matrix. And so maybe it is the bathroom, maybe it is my room, maybe it is in the car. Maybe it's, I'm parked at my house and I haven't gone in yet and I'm isolating by sitting out there, you start to identify places like that. But then also when do I struggle on my phone? You know? And you can lead into a tech action plan at that point. You can get so many extensions off of that, but you start to identify the places and the things that you use devices you use into relapse when.

You mentioned using it in conjunction with other tools. And I think another one is the crash site analysis that we're, you know, is going to be a podcast really close to this one. So go check that one out if you haven't yet. But seeing the way that maybe in one specific instance where you're getting really detailed with what was the setting, what was I feeling, what excuses I making, and maybe looking at one, you can kind of step back and go, okay, well, this is what happens specifically this time. But how often is that also what usually happens? So we can kind of use a specific crash site analysis to build the more common matrix and see what our patterns are. So that's another one you could look to use to kind of clarify what your matrix of addiction is.

Because sometimes it's not even the situation, it's the emotions that I feel in that situation that are connected to another, another time, place that I've also felt that way. So maybe it's, you know, I'm just thinking about any meeting for me, a huge trigger or a huge wound of mine growing up was feeling like I wasn't smart or intelligent. Yeah. So any moment that I'm in that I feel that wound of not feeling smart enough if I wasn't, wasn't prepared or people asked questions I couldn't answer, whatever. And that can happen in a lot of different situations and scenarios in my life. Yeah. So they may be all different situations or contexts, but I'm still feeling the exact same ex. The exact same emotional wound. And so I think this, this tool can also help us identify what those are as we've used it a number of times.

Yeah. And, and all three of those that we just mentioned, whether it's like crash site analysis, the three circles, or the matrix, when we first sit down with those tools, I think you kind of referred to this earlier, Nick, is we look at that, we're like, I don't know these things. Right. And then so we, we do try and reverse engineer it. Have grace for yourself. If at first you're like, I don't know what happened before this.

Right.

The more we do these exercises, the more we begin to identify these things and the more easily we can piece stuff together. Right. And even if you can put together a whole matrix of addiction, there's still nuances of that, that, that you'll end up identifying more of the more you do stuff I just recently put together for myself, like on certain days when I'm more like short tempered with my kids, it's usually days where I've had a long counseling day and where I've been caring for other people all day and now.

Doing good stuff.

Doing good stuff, Right?

Yep.

But now at the end of the day, like there's a little bit of like, but now who's going to care for me? So if I walk into the house and my kids are, you know, arguing or they just need help tying their shoes. Right.

Yeah.

It's like, no, who's going to help me tie my shoes? Yeah, like, you know, and so, so even that like was a, was a real recent kind of observation for me to understand. Oh, wait, no, I see. I do this because of this and I hadn't really made that connection before for. And so the more you use these tools, the more familiar you'll get with them and the more able you'll easily access kind of this information. But give your. Be gracious with yourself.

You mentioned this. So I want to bring up another side of it too. I do feel there are times, and I'm not making a blanket statement for all men and all women, but there are times I've seen people use the I don't know phrase really as a way to block going there totally. That they haven't legitimately paused and thought and process because there's a part of, and there's a part of all of us that doesn't want to. We don't want to have to acknowledge the stupid things we've done and the bad choices. And sometimes a defense mechanism in our lives can be, I don't know.

Yeah.

And just kind of avoid like, okay, I get that if you sat for 20 minutes and tried to think and you may have some mental blocks there. Sure. You may have such severe denial structures. You. You really can't see it. And that's. That's honestly a place where you need to get with a counselor. You need to get with an expert or a coach that can walk you through, like, well, let's just talk through, and it can help you. Yeah, but I think for other people, they. They didn't stop even long enough to worry about it. So I've sometimes said, well, yeah. How long did you spend trying to work through this? Like, well, I just. I read it, and I didn't get it, so I quit. Like, yeah, okay, let's maybe lean into.

That a little bit. Yeah. Yeah. I. I went to the grocery store the other day, and there was an item that I needed. I couldn't find it. It was like an organic kind of item. And I asked the guy that worked there, and I was like, oh, hey, you know, like, do you know where this is? And he said, I'm new here. I don't know. And then he went back to what he was doing. And so then I was. I was like, oh, hey, yeah, no, I really appreciate that. You know what might be more helpful for me next time is if you said, I don't know, but I'll find out. Right.

So the radio on your belt.

Yeah. And I was trying to be. I was trying to be kind, because I'm like, yeah, dude, I get it.

You're new.

You don't know where it is. You probably. You might even feel dumb for not knowing where it is. Right?

Sure.

But a helpful answer might be, I don't know, but I can find out for you. Right. And then that same week, I was at another grocery store, and I asked the guy where the queso fresco was, and I was like, oh, hey, do you know where the queso fresco is? And he's like, you know what? I'm not sure. But he turned around, and he's like. He's kind of like, with his hands, like, looking on the shelf, and then he moves down a little bit, and then. And then he walks all the way down the aisle, and he's like, I think he's looking around, and he's like, I think it might be down here. And he grabs, and it reaches all the way back, and he pulls out the queso fresco and he hands it to me. And then when he turns around, he grabs his, like, his walking stick and walks. He was blind.

Oh, my God.

Like, the employee. The employee was blind.

Holy cow. Right?

And he didn't say, I don't know, I'm blind. He didn't say, I don't know where. He didn't say, I don't know where it is. And I'm also blind. He said, you know, I'm not sure. And like, the blind employee, like, helped me find my queso fresco that was even way back in the shelf. And it's like, it's like what you're saying, Nick, like, I don't know. Yes. Have grace that you don't know. And let's find out.

Let's try.

Like, there's no excuse to not continue to try to find this stuff.

So good. So, Bob, maybe the most important question, once we know this, like, once we've written out our matrix of addiction, we can see it. It's getting clear. What do we actually do with this information? Because if all we do is, like, write it up, it can actually be a little bit shame inducing. Like, oh, great, here's all the dumb excuses I've made for all the dumb things I've done. What a wretched man am I. Yeah. So what is the value and benefit of knowing our matrix of addiction and how can we put it into practice in our recovery and sobriety?

Yeah. I think one of them is the more familiar we are, the more we're going to notice these things when they're happening. Right. We're not going to be delusional when we start to do some of this stuff. We're going to see, oh, no, I'm doing this because of this. And then, and then we'll ask ourselves, but what's the emotion behind this? Right. It's not just. It's not just these weekly meetings that are triggering for me, but it's this emotion that's behind it. And I can address that thing. And the other thing is too, we can give this information to other people, Right. People that we're in group with. We have versions of this in the counseling we do. Like in the genesis process where there's a card where they write out their most common thing in each level of the faster scale. And they give that to somebody, Right. Because it's like, hey, help me. Like, if you see me starting to do this.

Yeah.

Then, you know, help me, help me identify that. I think a big part is just understanding addiction, understanding our patterns, giving these things the weight that they deserve. That it's not just you're going to. So you're going to go like, play fantasy football. It's not just that. Right. It's that that is connected to this.

Part of my pattern. Yeah.

And. And if we know it and we acknowledge it out loud to other people and we let those people know this is part of it, hey, can you keep an eye on it? Then we're just. We're bringing this stuff to the light, and we're not keeping these secretive patterns.

Right. And you talked about the three circles, too. I mean, earlier. I think that's what's so helpful about connecting these tools, is that now I know what new rhythms and practices I need to put in place. Like, you know, we talk about this a lot at Pure Desire that the inner circle is important to identify, and the middle circle is also really important to identify those guardrails. But the most important is identifying the outer circle activities. The things that perpetuate my own health, the things that I do that help me maintain health. And I think that that's what you do is you look at. Okay, if I know where my pattern starts and I know in these certain situations I feel that emotional pain or I run into this trigger or wound, then I can start putting healthy practices in and around that. Yeah, that if I know, let's say my marketing communications team, let's say every Single Monday at 11, I know that our meeting. I'm going to get emotionally triggered. For whatever reason, we're not doing the things we need to be doing. I'm not as good of a leader. Whatever. If I know that the meeting ends at noon, then at 12:01, I can set up. Go on a walk with Justin outside.

Yeah. You're gonna say, go to Popeyes with Justin.

That is not. That is not healthy for either of us. Justin, you know that to be true. But it's something that I can put those. Stay with me, guys. Gosh, I was in the middle of a really good.

Bob's on the mention Popeyes. I'm still there.

I'm sorry, but you know what I'm saying? Like, it's. You can start to implement things, you know, before or after things. You know, I've. I've said, too. Coming home sometimes is really, really difficult for me. It's been a long day, and I know when I walk in, I'm going to help my wife with my kids, who's been home with them all day by herself. She's exhausted. My kids are going to want to see me. And, you know, you were talking about earlier, it's like, who's going to tie my shoes? Right. If I know that that's how I feel, then the 15 or 20 minutes I'm in my car. I can be just praying. I can make a phone call and a check in. I can do some just self reflection. There's a lot of things I can do to prepare myself for that moment.

Yeah.

Because when I walk in and if I don't connect with my wife right away and I can tell she's really upset and had a bad day or I realized, like Brady, I don't want to spend time with you right now. Leave me alone. Daddy's tired. I'm going to feel shame, which is going to start that cycle. And so it's those things where I can do, I can put those practices in place now that help me get healthy before I even walk into the situations that could start my pattern.

Yeah. And I think what it helps us do is we know where to do the work. I know Jeremy Weil says it on the Conquer series and a lot of people have said it, that it's not about trying harder, it's about trying smarter. And so most people who are in a pattern of acting out have been trying to change. That's why we're in group or using this tool, because we've worked hard to stop. But usually we've been working at stage five or six when that boulder in your illustration, Bob, has been rolling downhill and we just keep getting flattened by it. The value of the matrix is now we do our work in phase one or two, we realize, oh, I'm procrastinating. Oh, I'm tired. Oh, I'm g getting edgy. And now if I do work there and it's usually at a place we can make some adjustments pretty easily. I mean, for me, fantasy sports is a big part of it. I missed not playing them, but it was pretty easy to stop playing fantasy sports and have a different plan. That was way easier than being four more steps down the road and being triggered and trying to avoid going to that old website. So I think that's what we're looking at is once you see it, do the work at the beginning and put those healthy steps in place because you're going to be successful. If you're not keeping the boulder from rolling downhill, you just realize that there's starting to be a little push on that boulder. Whoa. I don't want to move this one. I'm going to go there instead. It's kind of that whole idea of the faster scale, too. On the faster scale, the goal isn't just to get one step back. The goal is to see it and get off of it. And that's the same with the Matrix is once we see it, we realize that's not going to be my pattern, so I'm not going to start it anymore.

Yeah, yeah. As you were saying that, like, the tools that we also. That we have already, that you can use for this is like an escape plan.

Right.

So you start to see this thing going to play the. The Matrix, like the cycle starting, go to whatever your escape plan is. We also have things like fire drills where you, like, are testing this out. Hey, let me, like, let me just practice. Okay. What do I need to do in the event of.

Right.

Yeah. But then also the restoration checklist that's taken from the faster scale. Right. You see yourself on the Matrix. You can just immediately go to that. Do I have any current secrets? Am I identifying fears and feelings? Am I resolving problems? Am I keeping commitments? Right. So we can. We have these tools that already exist that like you're saying, Nick, that we proactively step into. Right. We don't let this cycle play out and then do something like. No, we can immediately go to these things that we. That we can prepare ahead of time so that we can do something healthy instead.

Yeah, it's just so. It's so good and such a great reminder for maybe some of you who are listening, who you've been using this tool before, have used it in the past, that it's still something to keep fresh on. It's still really, really important. And for those of you that are early on in recovery, this is an essential tool to not only creating and establishing sobriety initially, but maintaining it over the long haul, because we know that relapse doesn't start with that sexual thought in the moment. It starts so much further back. So, yeah, we need to know what sets up our crash, what sets up our relapse. If we want to stop doing it, we have to be. And that's just so key. And everything that we talk about is it awareness, it's self awareness, emotional awareness, situational awareness of what gets us to the point of relapse and sobriety and health is absolutely possible because of tools like this. So, Bob, thanks for being here. Thanks for doing what you do and thanks for just hanging out with us.

Yeah, pleasure.

And wherever you're at on your journey, pure desire is here to help create a roadmap for your healing. If you or someone you know is impacted by sexual brokenness or betrayal, trauma, go to pure desire.org and let's start the healing journey today. Don't forget to subscribe to the podcast and drop us a review. It helps others find the podcast. Each week we put out new content to help you on the road to healing and freedom. Lastly, never stop being healthy.