229 - Crash Site Analysis

You're listening to the Pure Desire Podcast, your safe place to find hope, healing, and freedom from sexual addiction, betrayal, and relationship issues. Hello. Hello. I am your host, Trevor Windsor, and you're listening to episode 229 of the Pure Desire Podcast. You're joining me, as always, is my co host, Nick Stumbo.

I just.

The first noise made me think of Wile E. Coyote. I just feel like I always hear that.

Yeah, yeah. But I was trying to reenact something from a movie that I know we've both seen.

I just feel like that could be in anything.

Oh, it's. It's in the outtakes of the movie the Proposal, when they're being asked, like, they're working on her citizenship card and they're asking Ryan Reynolds character about her driving. And he's like, you know, describe. And he doesn't say anything. He just mimes out, like, his whole crash at the end. Gosh.

I don't know how people, our listeners, feel about it, but I love Ryan Reynolds. He is hilarious. And she's my favorite actress.

That's a funny movie. Although there's a lot of questionable content in a movie that we could. That's another podcast.

Anyway, we had Ashley Jameson, our associate director of women's groups, on to talk about another tool which is sort of connected to last week's episode, but is also a standalone tool, and it's called the Crash Site Analysis.

Yes. So we. We all have walked through this process. If we're in a recovery group, either we're the one that's crashed or been the. The spouse, family member hurt by it. And it's difficult. You know, that's not a situation anyone wants to be in. But that's the whole purpose, really, of this tool and this podcast today. Because if we will analyze it well, and you say it in the podcast, it can actually be a healing part of our journey to really start to see what's going on in a relapse that can lead to a ton of future growth and change and be what causes us to avoid crashing again. So it's an invitation to everyone listening to slow down, to look back and learn so that God can do something new and wonderful in the rest of our story.

Yeah. And it's interesting because it feels like it's such a simple tool, but it's not. There's tons of dynamic. There are a lot of layers and complexity. It's not this very, very difficult tool to do, but if done well, can be extremely effective. Okay, so before we get into the episode, a Few things. Subscribe to the podcast. We're on all the major platforms, including Audible. For all you crazy Audible listeners out there, I love you. You're my people. Also, if you could leave us a review, it helps. I feel like I got judgment from both Justin and Nick as I was saying that. Please follow us on social media. Euedesirepdmi we are putting out content every week to try to help you on the road to recovery and healing. And then, Nick, we talk about this, and we found out recently that some people have taken our encouragement to join something we're calling Team 58. They listen to our podcast, they hear us talk about it, and then they join the team.

Yeah, and good news. Just recently, we hit the 100 mark of people who are on team 58, which is exciting because we have not had a good foundation of donor support as a ministry. And honestly, it's kind of hindered what we're able to do. And so that's exciting to have 100 people that have said, we're a part of it, we believe in it, and we're on the team. And it's just those that have made that monthly commitment to financially be a part of pure desire at any amount. And we celebrate that because, as the metaphor says, we're all bringing something to the table. And some person might have brought a really big dish and someone just brought a box of crackers, but when we all sit down to eat, we're all at the table together. And that's kind of what Team 58 is. It's from Isaiah 58 that says, when your salvation comes, you will be known as those who rebuild the broken walls and restore the fallen cities. And it's the idea that my healing can be paid forward to be a part of other people's healing. And so if you're a listener and that's where you're at, we'd love to have you join us. 100 people is awesome. But we know based on the amount of people listening to the podcast and getting our communication, that that's a drop in the bucket. And so maybe you've been thinking about it and this would be a great time just to jump in and say, hey, I'd love to be a part of it. And if you do, you know, if you join the team, we send you some fun stuff, some free swag, and hopefully you do get that sense that you're truly a part of what happens, because you are.

Absolutely. So if you want to join Team 58, just go to PureDesire.org give All right, here is our conversation with Ashley Jamison on the crash Site Analysis Tool. Ashley Jamison, welcome back again. Please don't be awkward in your response.

I was thinking all day of what to say and I decided that I was just going to say hi.

Hi. That's what you normally do.

Thank you for having me. I'm very nervous. I don't know who else you could have got to do this podcast. It was like shoving chocolate in my face this morning when I was looking at these questions.

Great.

Yikes.

So you get a healthy version. Yeah. Of Ashley Jamison. Okay, so our time together today is focused on a tool that we use at Pure Desire called the Crash Site Analysis. This is a really helpful tool in recovery when really, when trying to establish sobriety at first. This is really, really helpful. But also this is a tool that can help down the road as you come back to it time and time again. So, Ashley, let's get into it. What is a brief description? You've been in a role, you've been a group, are now an associate director of our women's groups. So like you've, you've been in a role in and around groups for a long time. So how would you describe the crash Site analysis tool?

It is pretty self explanatory. You just go back to the scene. I say scene of the crime because that's how I feel like it is with my relapses. They're like a crime scene and especially when John relapses. But it's just going back to that disaster, that wreckage, and trying to figure out what happened, looking for clues and really thinking about what led up to it and what led into it and any blind sides you might have experienced and not notice. Because when we're in it, we don't notice those things. We're kind of limpic. And so once we have that clear mind, we're able to go back and see how this, I guess, snuck up on us again and hopefully avoid it from, you know, avoid it happening again.

Yeah, you know, the terminology comes from our good friend and founder, Dr. Ted Roberts, who has that military flight background. When a plane crashes in the military, they don't just go, oh, bummer, we lost a plane. Let's move on and build 10 more. It's like we need to know exactly what happened and why and do everything in our power to make sure it doesn't happen again. Because the planes and the people flying them are worth way too much to just let them go into the ground. And so even if that Means they have a team of people out there picking through the wreckage, trying to find the tiniest thing that may have been a trigger or a cause. And you know, Ted has all kinds of stories in the Seven Pillars workbook about little things they found in the user manual or in the wreckage. Well, I mean, and it can end up saving thousands of lives in airplanes. And so I think it's that idea that we want to look at what caused this so that it doesn't keep happening and we don't keep going into that same wreckage pattern. And I really like the way that we can become an analyst of that. We don't just move on. And in fact, I think in my journey, I even got some of that advice from well intentioned Christian mentors and friends. Were like, you know, you just need to remember who you are in Christ and move on and keep facing forward. Don't look at the back, don't look back, don't feel all that shame because then you'll just wallow in and it's not going to help you. And I think that advice, even though it was well intentioned, actually caused me for years to miss that. I was crashing over the same things over and over and over. So I was like, well, I'm just moving forward and I don't want to hold on to it. So I'm just. Tomorrow's a new day and Christ's mercies are new every morning. And they are. And those things are wonderful and true. But it kept me from honestly figuring out what was going on. And so I just kept crashing in a lot of the same ways.

Totally. And it honestly is white knuckling, like it just helps you perpetuate that white knuckling perspective. I just have to try harder, just do better next time. And the irony is that after so many failures, when you fail again, it's not going to make it better. It just always makes it worse the more and more that you do it.

Yeah, well, yeah. And I mean, I like how you said, you know, there'd be like a team of people going to assess what happened because that's often what we need is our group members or a team around us because we can't always see it very clearly on our own. And just having a second set of eyes is, is always to try to figure out what led that, you know, what led you to that relapse again.

Yeah. I'll sometimes joke with my group is like, that's why we call them blind spots because you're not able to see them if you were able to see them, you wouldn't have blind spots. Right? And we all know we have blind spots. It's part of being human. So this is definitely a tool we want to try to use with our group, with our spouses, if we're in that kind of place where we're able to talk this through, because health does come from community. So, Ashley, let's walk through the analysis because it's got eight steps to it. So in step one, we want to describe our last relapse in vivid detail. What do we mean by that? And why are we doing this?

Yeah, this is such a scary question. And this is actually why I was eating all that chocolate before the podcast, because I started filling out a crash site analysis for my last major relapse with a one night stand. And I was like, oh my gosh, where are all the chocolate balls in the world? I thought that we were going to be covering the actual tool in here. And I was like, I don't know how I'm going to share this in an appropriate way on a global podcast. So vivid detail, it's. It's like it's likely going to be something that you share with your group or your spouse. And this is where it gets nitty gritty, where, you know, we've had tough conversations, John and I, and we share the most vulnerable things in group because we really need to be able to pick apart what happened. And so if we're leaving out details, and for me, all of my relapses start with secrets, and they're perpetuated by secrets. And so even just the frequency or you know exactly what happened, getting that out there is so important because one, you're clearing out all of that shame or clearing out all of the secrets. And then on top of that, like you said, with the blind spots, when we go through the whole picture and we, we kind of lay out everything that happened and led up to it, that's often where we see, okay, that's where I could have made a different choice. Right there is when I could have had my way of escape out of this. If we just say, yeah, I relapsed, then that's not going to do. That's basically the same thing as saying, yeah, the plane crashed. You're not going through step by step everything that happened to try to figure out where it went wrong. And so it is important to be detailed for yourself so that you can change the pattern and recognize the pattern. And it's important to be detailed for your spouse so that you're having that full honesty if you're in a marriage.

Yeah. And we want to be careful when we use that word vivid, that we don't mean, like, to be graphic about how you act it out, because I've had group members think that's what it means of, like, they're describing the kind of porn or the kind of person or how they act as, like, whoa, whoa, whoa. We don't mean that kind of, like, detail. It's more just what you were saying, Ashley. It's that the devil is in the details. And our healing, I think, is in the details of what time of day was it? Where were you at? Who were you with? What were the emotional triggers that were going on? What else had happened in your day? And often in our crashes, there are little pieces of it that it's convenient to just say, oh, I relapsed. But if. If we share a little bit more. And it was, you know, while you were away with the kids, and I told you I just needed some time to sleep, but I. You know, so it's a detail like, that we may be tempted to ignore because it feels and it's. It's shameful, but it's a detail that actually starts to clarify what's our pattern and why it happened. And so when we say vivid, right. We don't mean describing some of your arousal template. Now, you may need that, but that's the kind of thing you would do not with your group or even your spouse, honestly. That would be with a certified trained sex addiction counselor who may need to help you think through your arousal template and some of the specifics of maybe what kind of porn or what kind of person or how you act out. That's not appropriate in group context. So just wanted to clarify a little bit what we were looking for in the vivid detail there.

Well, and the nice thing is, if you go down the road of recovery, our friend Jay Stringer talks about that our lust, or really our porn searches hold the keys to us finding freedom. Meaning that we. We go toward types of porn or specific situations in porn or any sexual. Any arena of sexual brokenness. We tend to go to certain situations or scenarios for specific reasons. It's somehow tied to our story. And so if we can start to practice this. And I just want to make it real clear, like, we're not saying you should go out and relapse so you can reevaluate everything. That's not what we're saying. But if you can go back and look, it's going to help you figure out more of your story and make more connections to why do I pursue this, you know, this scenario or this type of person or this body type in porn or in my sexual acting out? And if I can identify that and how it connects to my story, it makes more sense. It can go back to what's motivating that behavior in the first place.

Yeah, that's really important because especially just overseeing women's groups. And with my own story, I was a sex addict with masturbation, but with acting out with men, it was totally love. And I wouldn't have ever seen that until going through group that. It was not about sex ever. It was about feeling pursued, it was about feeling accepted, it was about feeling wanted. And so it does take kind of the embarrassing, tough picking apart of those situations to be able to see that. And there's times where I think back and I'm like, I cannot even believe that's the same person. And also you just feel kind of sad. Like all I really needed was a good, healthy dose of identity and love and security and relationships and safety. But you wouldn't think that by just, you know, saying, oh, I act out with porn or masturbation or sleeping around, you just don't, you don't put that connection together until you start picking it apart.

Yep.

Okay, so the second step is identifying how the downward spiral looked and felt. Let's talk through that. What does that look like?

It looked like falling off of 100 foot story building, grasping for flag poles and telephone wires and anything you can, clawing at the brick wall. That's honestly how I felt in those in when I was in living in relapse constantly because my behaviors were like, my acting out with other men was like a year between all the time. That was my pattern, was like seven years or whatnot of acting out, but with a year gap in between. So I would have never considered myself a sex addict, love addict, anything like that. But when you look at the whole picture, the downward spiral would start with secrets. It would start with isolating and, and compartmentalizing my life. Because I was a worship leader, I was a Bible study leader, I did help in kids ministry. I had lots of friends that were always doing things that were fun and healthy. But when I would start to hide part of my life, compartmentalize my life, that was always the first step for me. If there were things in my life that I didn't want to share with this group of friends that shared the same values with me, I'd share my stuff with this group of friends who shared my same party values, but not this group of friends. And so that was. That's a huge red flag for me now when there's parts of my life that I keep from the people that share the same values as I do. And then obviously secrets and because my acting out relapse was so far in one aspect of my relapse, you would be able to see it in other areas. And so it was this compulsive and obsessive behavior starting like too much, just that gluttony, like too much tv, too much shopping, too much alcohol. I just wanted. That's what I mean by. I was like falling and grasping for things because I was looking for something that that restlessness in my soul was searching for something to satisfy and there wasn't anything. And then it wasn't until I had act out sexually that I would just hit this really low and become depressed. And then that's when I was like, okay, I'm finally ready to be content and just like give it all to Jesus. And then the whole cycle would start over again with the secrets and the compartmentalizing. So that's what my pattern looks like. But everybody's pattern is going to look different because some people, they're going to stop going to church or some people, they're going to. I never did that. And so that's why having tools and group and friends to help you assess what happens is so important because my downward spiral is going to look completely different than somebody else's downward spiral.

Yeah. And on the tool itself, it asks about your faster scale, the last three weeks, and the double binds you were facing. And I know for me, I had a relapse several years into recovery that was humiliating and embarrassing. And, you know, it brings up all those old feelings for both me and my wife of like, why are we here again? And my wife, being a wise, perceptive person, asked me, had you filled out your crash site analysis? And so I, I did. I worked through this. And on this question it was like, where were you at the last three weeks of your faster scale? I looked back at him because I had them from my group and it was like ticked off, ticked off, exhausted. And it's like, oh, I'd basically been living in ticked off, had gotten into exhausted. And the double bind had really been similar all three weeks. That there was a work situation that was unresolved and that I wasn't really talking to other people about. I was just internalizing a lot of strong emotion. And so as I Had to think through that. The crash became obvious. It was like, I'm living in ticked off and exhaustion. I've got unresolved emotional pain and turmoil that I haven't wanted to bring up with people because I feel exhausted. And so it started to make sense, like, ah, okay. Had I dealt with this earlier and seen that, I could have avoided the crash. So those specific questions can really help you analyze what that spiral feels like.

Totally. And it's the things that maybe you don't think are contributing to it that become so apparent when you go through this exercise where you realize, like, oh, it's that situation. And we talked about this last episode when we were talking about the matrix of addiction. You start to see those things kind of boil up to the surface where it's like, oh, in those situations, I feel this way. And that's something that triggers me emotionally and gets me going in my relapse pattern, you know, so you find situations, you might even find people. You might even find certain locations once you are able to do that, because if you've relapsed a couple times in recovery or as you're starting group and you do a crash site analysis, you're going to see some things line up. You're going to, you know, that may not be the exact same things, but you're going to see, oh, you know what I know in this situation and in this situation over here, I felt the exact same way. The same wound, same trigger, something like that.

Mm. Yeah.

So the third step, Ashley, is to identify what accelerated that downward plunge. So what are we looking for on this step?

Well, again, if you're not in group, I would suggest getting into it, because every time I've had a major relapse in any kind of area, like this summer, I started to struggle with some eating disorder behaviors, which surprised me because I had not struggled with those kind of thinking, like that kind of mindset for 14 years. And so I was really, really shocked that my brain was going there again. And I remember reaching out to my support people. And it's just so important to be regularly using tools, even if you're not in group, because that's what helps keep us aware, especially if we have that kind of addictive mindset or vulnerabilities. But for me, it would be like, lack of sleep is a huge one, because then I feel like my brain is just desperate for energy and anything, even if it's an unhealthy energy or false energy, whether it's through food or sex or whatever, it may Be being tired is a huge one for me. Being lonely, even if you're in a marriage or even if you have a lot of friends, that, like, deep soul loneliness that you have, that is a trigger for me and it. And it just perpetuates it. So it's kind of like be engaged in your tools, whether you're in group or not, so that you can identify what it is. Because it may be exhaustion, like you're saying. Nick, When I started having that mindset come back this summer, I was exhausted. John was working on fires. I had all these children, and there's Covid, and, you know, just. I was running on empty, and we had bought that property. And. And so I probably was just in exhausted each week. And then. But then sometimes it may be fatigue, and it may be just I need sleep or, I mean, I may need, you know, to go out and get exercise or may need community with people to just recharge my soul. And so, again, I feel like it can vary, and that's why it's important to be using the tools regularly and then to go back and look what happened. There's been times where the trigger was being around certain family members that are really hard. Trigger some insecurities and some abandonment issues. And so you would have seen that on my faster scale for the week. And then other times, it's being tired because I'm a single mom or my disease is flaring up or something. So, um, you have to. You have to go back and you have to look at the crash site. You can't just assume it's the same thing each time.

Yeah. And it. You know, some of the things, too, for me is like, what have I been. What this would help me with is what have I been watching? What have I been listening to? What are the things that are catering maybe to my headspace? And, like, if I'm watching something that's really violent and is full of people who. There's no, like, redemptive character or redemptive, like, arc to what's going on. And there's. It's something that, you know, because this is the way I think. I think you're either heading toward health or away from it. There's no, like, in between. And so sometimes it's thinking through and identifying those things come up. You know, for me, we're in a season right now of life where I'm really busy. I'm doing work, I'm doing school. My wife's doing photography. Also, we're parenting these two boys. And for me, because we're so busy. What would come up on a crash site analysis right now is my lack of self care and even my fear to ask for it because of how busy we are. And so that's the sort of thing that does help you really go down that spiral a lot faster. That's what caters to it is when you can identify things like that. And obviously this, you know, and we'll, we get it more and more into it as we talk about it. But that's why this is such a helpful tool is because it also gives us the, the reverse. Here are things I can do, here are things I should be doing to help avoid another crash.

And that's why the tool asks specifically on this question about three areas. It asks about your commitment to change over the last few weeks and how many phone calls are you making and are you following your boundaries. And you know, not surprisingly, nine times out of ten when someone's walking through this, it's like, well, I haven't made much progress on a commitment to change or I haven't had one. I forgot and I missed group and I haven't made one. Phone calls is almost always zero. Like I haven't been calling anybody, but.

I texted that one person and I'm.

Ignoring all my boundaries. It's, it's like, oh, so I'm not doing just like you're saying, I'm not doing any of the things that contribute to my health. I'm ignoring my group, ignoring my commitments, ignoring my boundaries. It shouldn't surprise me that I crash, but it is kind of that moment to have the honest assessment of. Because some people might find, well, I was doing a couple of them, but they could see the gap of I was just doing it all by myself because I wasn't making any phone calls or man, I was doing my commitment to change my phone calls, but I got overconfident in those and I was ignoring all my boundaries. So it's, it's kind of looking at the ways that those tools are meant to keep us in a healthy place that why did they fail us or where did we not utilize them in a way that could have helped us? So again, I think walking through the tool and really having some honest self assessment and being able to say I haven't made a phone call in a month, that may be what we need to honestly recognize why we're crashing.

Yeah, yeah, I can recognize when I just get in like this pattern that like I was explaining earlier of feeling like I just constantly need something to just Feel awesome or chill. I mean, not like drugs or anything, but I just like, you know, I'm always needing something, like tv, shopping, whatever. It. I can feel when my brain goes there, when my soul goes there. But for me, sometimes it's just. It's just laziness or almost like, oh, I just do this stuff all the time. I just want to break. I don't want to do. I want to do something fun, you know, like this. The seven in me comes out like, I just want to do something fun and different. I don't want to do the same thing. And it always comes back to bite me in my butt. It really does. Because I think I can hang out in the middle circle of our three circles, exercise. Like, oh, yeah, I can go to bars and dance, and I can stay over late and watch a movie and not end up spending a night and rely completely on willpower. And we just need to realize that willpower is really not something you can rely on alone. That all these tools are so good, and when we're using them. For example, I was listening to a. To an audiobook that it was so good, and it started getting so sexual. And I remember texting Anna and saying, I have to turn this book off because it is so good, but it's so sexual. And I'm turning it off, and I'm just letting you know. And then a few months later, she ended up texting me. She's like, was this the book you were talking about? Because it is so good and now I have to turn it off. And I said, yep, that's the same one. And so I can tell, like, when I'm living in hell, that's the kind of behavior I have. Like, it wasn't a problem because as soon as I identified it, I'm like, this is what I do. This is what I do. This is what I tell my group members to do. But when I've been out of the system of using the tools, that's when I just can start getting in this hamster wheel of thinking I can just do things on my own. And then. And then I end up crashing.

Yeah, okay, this is super good so far. Let's look at step four and five a little bit. Step four is identifying the lessons that you learned as you're going through this analysis. And then step five is to look for the common patterns that you're seeing. Let's talk through this. What does this look like?

Yeah, I guess I kind of alluded to this in the other question, but for me, one of the other tools that's really helpful for me is that three circles tool. When I'm hanging out in my middle circle, that is almost a surefire way. Whether it's my food addiction or my love addiction or sex addiction or a shopping addiction, TV addiction, all the addictions, if I'm hanging out in the middle, I'm going to crash. And so for me, it's, what are those behaviors that I'm doing? And it's usually staying up late, it's usually not being disciplined. I mean, things all the way down to putting my pile of laundry away. Because if I come into my room and that stresses me out and I want to avoid it, then I sit down and I start watching tv instead of putting that. It's these little things that might not matter to other people, but those are the things that actually will spiral me into a relapse because, because I'll, I'll decide I'm going to go binge or I'm going to go watch this TV show instead of taking care of my responsibilities. And so just being aware with your tools and your own, your own circles exercise, your own, your own recovery action plan, your own faster scales, like I said, it's fluid. And so whatever it is that you know leads you to ticked off, leads you to exhausted, those are the things that you're going to start seeing as common patterns. And so when I started using the faster scale regularly and the three circles exercise, it was like I felt like I almost had this superpower of I can see the patterns now. I remember. I mean, my old journals would just be like tear soaked, like, why do I do this? Why do I do this? Why do I do this? I'm here again and now it's like I can actually see what leads me down there. And it's really up to me if I want to go there again or not.

And I can't tell you in group how many times that question, what lessons did you learn? Someone, they'll write, nothing, don't do it. I don't know. And I tell you, it irritates me a little bit. It's like, okay, you need to take a step back. And if you're trying to fill this out honestly, like right after a relapse, maybe you feel like that you feel like it's nothing. But this can be a living document that you keep adding to. And you're really trying to create some honesty with yourself here. And it can be based on those first three questions of, oh, when I'm getting down into ticked off, and exhausted. I need to be more proactive about making changes. Or when I don't make phone calls, I move towards relapse. Or when I'm not actively pursuing a commitment to change, I'm vulnerable to relapse. So sometimes it's using the tool itself to answer that question. And if there is something inside you that goes, well, I've learned nothing because I just keep doing it well, then the tool's not really working for you. So take some time, analyze. And if you truly don't know what lessons are here, that's again, why we have community. That's why we have group to go and say, could I share with you my first three answers? And then could you guys share with me? What lessons are you seeing? What do you hear? Because maybe we have, again, one of those blind spots that we're just not seeing it. But if we're not able to see the lessons, then we are doomed to just keep going through that same pattern. And so that's a crucial question. Just really invite people, Spend some time there and get clear on what the lessons you're learning really are.

Yeah, I said this in the episode before, too, that it's something you can identify patterns of, like, what devices you end up using, what rooms you end up going to. You know, you identify, like, situations, context, places, you know, all of it. And again, we don't necessarily think that there are still times, you know, I'm in year, I think seven, of recovery. It's been a really long time, praise the Lord, since a relapse. But there are still rooms, or there are still rooms that I walk in and I can remember relapses, or I can remember just unhealthy decisions I've made. And it's weird. Like, that stuff is still there. Where, um. You know, I've. There have been times where maybe I'm. I'm in a situation or a building that I grew up in, and I know that there was pain there, but I also know that in that situation there was a relapse or my sexual brokenness manifested in some way in that scenario. Like, I wouldn't know that unless I did something like this, unless I analyzed those situations. Um, and so that's the kind of thing that this can help you identify is it's not just, how was I feeling or what sexual thoughts did I have. It's more than that.

Mm.

Okay, so step six, moving into it is then identifying which. New is the key word here. I think new guideline you need to put in place. What are Some suggested guidelines that we have for something like this.

This is so funny because like I was saying, when you don't use the tools and you think things just creep up on you, you really just don't know how you keep ending up in there. And, and now that I'm aware of my behaviors, even when I can get stuck there, there are so many things that I can do, so many guidelines that I can put in place or guardrails that I can put in place and it's just a matter if I want to or not. But there really are so many things which actually makes you feel really empowered. Some of them I have to apply physically. Like I literally cannot buy Costco sized Rice Krispie treats because I will eat 15 in one day, no joke. And my kids are mad and I have zits and I feel gross. That's something that I just do. Like that's a physical thing I do to keep myself from binge eating delicious Rice Krispie treats. But there's also things like that sexually. Like I remember when I first started dating John and I had these really strong male friendships that I'm really connected with them. But I know I'm vulnerable to flirting and, and acting out sexually. And I let John know that I said I am very flirty in these certain situations at these certain places, I don't trust myself. And so I'm letting you know that way if I ever ask you to go to those places, you know that that's a vulnerable place for me. And so my husband knows the different scenarios that could be a trap for me. And then also letting those men know I can't have a relationship with you anymore because I value my marriage too much. This is. And some of them, you know, are like, what? This is crazy. Is your husband controlling? Is he, you know, and it's like, no, I value my marriage so much I'm not going to do that. And so there's, there's things like that that I can do and then there's other things like, like you're saying, Trevor, there's definitely a grip of shows I do not watch because it's too triggering for me to act out sexually. There's books I don't listen to. There's. There's plenty of good shows and good books that I can replace it. And so it's not like I'm deprived. You know, if John goes out of town on a fire, I usually always have myself projects. So I will build some legit things around my house, like tables, patios, you know, repaint things. I usually have a project because then instead of sitting around in this, like loneliness for weeks and I'm like, you know, could struggle with acting out sexually. I'm thinking I want to use all my time. I can't wait till I'm done working. I want to go finish my project. I want to see something be built and see like, my hands create something. And then I'm tired by the end of the day, I don't want to go to sleep and I don't even watch TV usually when he's out of town, because I'm so tired. And so that's something that I do for myself because emotionally it makes me happy to do that project. Physically, it wears me out, it keeps me busy. And so just finding things like that. But they're going to be unique to you. And if you have a good group of friends, I think that they can help you with that too.

And this is an area that it is so important. We're doing this for ourself, just like you said, Ashley, I'm making these decisions because I. I'm being honest with myself about what I need now. We don't want to just do that and think, I can fix this by myself. We need the input. If we're married, we need our spouse's input. If we're in a group, it's inviting group and people that care about us. But I think sometimes people are quick to jump to that, like, well, what do you want me to do? You know, if they're married and just tell me and I'll do it. And so now I'm doing what my group told me, my spouse told me, my pastor. And those can quickly become that outside in like confinements, like, well, I'm just doing this to make people happy. And honestly, even if those are healthy guide rails or boundaries, they're probably not going to change as much because they were put on us rather than chosen by us. And so I think when we can choose them, not only is it good for us because we start with that mindset of this is my choice, but it also can show to the people around us, like a spouse, that I'm taking this seriously. So if my crash involves, and there's this list here, if it involves media use or a device or a location or a trigger, and my response is, say, I'm going to eliminate this from my life, or here's how I'm going to make a change and not drive that way to work or not interact with that person or not use that website, whatever it takes and we get pretty disciplined with ourself. That can mean something to others. Now we want to make sure we're not doing it just to make them happy because I definitely did that in my journey. But I think if we start here and we create self guide rails, guidelines or boundaries first, that's going to really help. Then others understand how they can help and participate. Rather than what I did to my wife for 10 years at the beginning of our marriage was kind of make her create the guidelines. And then that wasn't fun for either of us because I didn't like them and she didn't want to have to enforce them. So that's a real lose lose situation. So this is an area you can do some good work to not only help yourself, but to help those relationships around you.

I think something when it comes to guidelines, guardrails for me that I've been exploring in life is if there's something that I have a sense that I need to do and the thought of doing it this new practice and one of them is not watching like tv, Ma or anything rated R without my wife there or without her knowing that I'm watching it, you know, being careful what kind of content I'm watching. If that guideline stings a little bit, like that's usually a good indication that there's some conviction there, that it is something I should do, you know, And I'm saying we need to set these unrealistic crazy boundaries just because you know, that in some ways can just be us white knuckling and trying harder. But these healthy things that we know are maybe not sinful outright, but are on the fringe for something that maybe feels like, ah, this isn't really super healthy for me. This doesn't put me in the best place. I've been just thinking about that. If it stings a little bit, then maybe. Okay, okay. All right, I need to do this. This is the right thing to do. And I think again, we've said it so many times already, inviting feedback, inviting that from your group members. Look into my life. What do you think about these guidelines? Look at the pattern I have. You know, we're going through this analysis. What guidelines do you think group members I should, you know, now do or now practice? I think that could also be really helpful because they can also help you make connections that maybe you haven't seen yet.

Mm. Oh yeah. They're so good for that. And I think there's a healthy balance, especially if you're in a relationship because, you know, I know I've said it before on some of the podcasts that, you know, you're not just doing your recovery by yourself if you have a spouse. There's that dynamic now with your spouse and betrayal, trauma and all that. So there may be things that you do for yourself, and then there may be some things that you are doing for your spouse because it doesn't make them feel valued. And hopefully you have the heart and mindset to feel like, I'm doing this because my spouse asked me to or not to. But it's because I love them and I want them to feel safe in this marriage. I want them to feel that way. I want them to know that they can trust me. And so even, like, if you do create a new, you know, guard, I keep want to say guideline, guide rail. I keep wanting to mix that word.

I started my fault.

Yeah, just blame me.

I'm good at it.

I think it's because I was thinking of the three circles exercise for so long. But when, you know, when I told you that, I let Yana know, like, hey, I'm missing this book. It's super sexual. It's super tempting. I'm going to let you know and not listen to it. I also let John know because that I feel like, builds trust. And, you know, he was watching a show that was really sexual, and it just kind of, like, gave me, like, the creeps a little bit. And I didn't really say anything because I was just like, in my own world. And I probably should have or mentioned how it made me feel. But later I heard him telling our son, like, oh, yeah, I have to do that too. There's things I want to do and I don't because it's not good for me. It's not good for my relationship. And I was watching a show and I turned it off because it's just too sexual. And I was thinking, I wish you would have told me that because that would have really helped put a little drop in the trust bucket that he made that decision on his own. I mean, I'm glad I heard it. But when you do create a new boundary for yourself, like, hey, I recognize I'm doing that, and it's probably not healthy. I think it can be a really good act of building trust with your spouse. You let them know that you did that.

And we want to remember, this is a crash site analysis. It's not a I stubbed my toe analysis. Well, that kind of hurt. And I better make sure I don't do it again. The crash, like, we're talking about addiction that ruins lives, ruins marriages, ruins careers. And so if we're crashing what you said, Trevor, I really appreciate if it doesn't pinch a little bit, like, if it doesn't cause pain, we're probably not doing the recovery. Right, because it's a crash that could ruin our life. And we're saying, I don't want to die, I don't want my marriage to die, I don't want my friendships to die, I don't want my career to die. So be a little radical, be a little extreme. And I think it'd be better if your spouse or group had to kind of talk you back off a boundary. Like, well, I think living in the mountains as a hermit is maybe a little too much. Could we maybe just.

Your job requires the Internet, Joe. Don't, don't do it.

Could we just maybe get rid of that device or eliminate this accessibility? So in that regard, it is a crash. And so we want to treat it as such. And if we're not, maybe that's a role we do play with a group member or a spouse. Say, I don't know if you're treating this like a crash, it seems like you're treating it like you just stubbed your toe and you kind of hurt a little bit. Do you really want to avoid another crash? So with that in mind, a really helpful thing for group members who are married, Ashley, is when their spouses also have a recovery action plan. And that recovery action plan should have both natural and logical consequences to a relapse. So talk about how a spouse's recovery action plan relates to the crash site analysis.

Well, you know, with the, with the natural consequences that come out of a, that you can identify on a recovery action plan, you're basically getting the opportunity to tell your spouse and that crashed how that crash affects you and how it affects your family and how. And like you're saying, Nick, some of these crashes are life altering. You know, I, I have this deep hatred for video games that most people know. But part of it is because if John goes back into an addictive lifestyle of playing video games at work, he could lose his job. And that is, that's a big deal. And so, and so it was important for us to have a conversation around that. You know, he's, he's living in, he's from California, but I've grown up here. And so some of my sexual partners he bumps into or he sees or he has, you know, interaction with. And so it was really important for us to have A very honest, candid conversation about my vulnerabilities, about what kinds of addictive behaviors I have and how it affects him. Because I need to know that so then I can put those logical consequences in. If I don't know how he feels and how my acting out affects him, then I won't know what kind of logical parameters or consequences I need in order to keep trust, you know, build trust and keep trust in that area. And so, yeah, if I have a guy friend that I've, you know, slept with in the past and he owns a lounge downtown, then I shouldn't. I shouldn't go to that lounge, I shouldn't go to that restaurant. It's going to create extreme anxiety in John and insecurity. And so that would be the natural consequences. Like my behaviors with that person caused John to have insecurity, a lack of trust, anxiety in that area. And so the logical consequence would be, I don't go to that place. It's as easy as that. And so it is helpful because then there's no guesswork. There's no, well, why are you making such a big deal? It's this just real conversation between two people sharing what they want out of their marriage, what they expect, what they want, you know, what they need for trust, and then hopefully having enough humility to honor each other in that way.

And that's what's so great about the recovery action plan, which I know we've done an episode on, and there's one for both the addict and the betrayed spouse. Because things like that, having a plan like that by itself is going to facilitate more trust because it's something we're doing together to create a plan so that we know what's gonna happen. And the hope is, when you have one, that you'll have to do less crash site analysis. Right? Like, it's the whole point. So having it is something we cannot emphasize enough for a couple that's gone through recovery and betrayal.

Well, and it's remembering that recovery doesn't happen in a vacuum. And we're tempted to think, well, this is just about me and my plan and what I need to do. It's like if we're married, it deeply impacts them. It changes the way they see themselves, the relationship, you. And if you're doing your work, great, but if you're not, also bridging that gap to say, what do you need me to do to rebuild trust, to help you feel safe, to create that sense for you that I'm taking this seriously and doing the work and not just trying to get away with the minimal amount of commitment that will make you happy. Because I know in my past that's what it was, is just like, well, what will make you happy versus what will actually rebuild trust and make you feel like we're headed the right direction. And sometimes that's hard stuff, but we need to give our spouses the ability to speak into that. And those are the logical consequences here. That it's not, and we've said this a lot, it's not to punish us. It's to create change and momentum in the relationship as much as in our own recovery.

Yeah. So go ahead, Ash.

I was going to say, and it's such an investment if you can change your mindset from thinking that it is this list of do's and don'ts to thinking of, you know, if I have something that's valuable and there's a way for me to pour into it and make it stronger and more valuable, then why wouldn't I want to do that? And that's how I try to picture my marriage. When there's a behavior that I maybe could get a little bitter about not being able to do that, I'm pouring into something that's lifelong and is the foundation for everything I do. My parenting. I mean, it's my marriage and it's going to be with me forever. So it's investing into it. It's not a list of do's and don'ts.

Yeah. Okay, so the final step is step eight. We've made it now to the end of this crash site analysis. And step eight is mapping out a plan for the next time you see an approaching crash or relapse. So what could this plan look like? What suggestions do we have for the steps?

I just. I feel like I'm. I'm like a salesperson for tools. On our website right now we have something called the escape plan. And it's very good. And I feel like you should have one of those as well. Because if you have a plan of what you're going to do for escaping when you see the crash coming, then you don't have to try to think about it in the moment. You just know right away. And so, for instance, it could be if I'm going out with a group of friends, especially have these lifelong childhood friends that are my sisters, but they don't have the same moral Christian values that I have. And so there are certain things where it's like, if they're all engaging in this one activity, I may bring my own car because there may be part of the night that I don't engage in because I've caught myself getting in a trap that way before. And so, you know, you're looking at how many steps back from that crash you can come and make a change where it's not a struggle before all of those network, you know, those neurons that are coming from the back to the front and kind of driving you and taking over before all those are lit up is when you want to be able to make your decision, not when you're already excited and in it a little bit too deep. And so, again, it's going to look different for everybody. But certain things, like if I recognize that I'm vulnerable for relapse at a certain time of day, then that may be the time of day that I go on a walk, if I'm home alone, or it may be the time that I mow my lawn, or maybe I get to tweak it instead of saying, next time I am not going to relapse. That's not helpful at all. Try harder. I will not relapse. Don't touch it, don't touch it, don't touch it. Okay, that's.

Oh, my God.

I was thinking.

Keep going. Thinking about the Rice Krispie treat.

Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, yeah, basically looking at where you can make a change before you. One, either put yourself in danger, two, hurt your spouse again, three, have full control to redirect that train off the track.

This is kind of the purpose of doing the crash site analysis is to get here and actually walk away with something actionable, like to rework a tool like your three circles to update your recovery action plan, as Ashley said, to change your escape plan. I think of it as the place you want to step back and read through all of your other answers and say, okay, now what? As I read through what I've analyzed here, what's the future need to look like? And so I maybe I recognize I haven't been making phone calls. I've been living with a lot of internal anxiety. And rather than connecting with people, I numb out to Netflix. And so I see my plan needs to be that I'm going to be making a daily phone call to process with a group member what's going on in my life emotionally. And until I've done that, I'm committed to not watching tv. Now, that would be a pretty actionable plan based on what I've discovered in my analysis. And that's what we're doing kind of looking for. And that that doesn't mean that'll be the only thing you do. But you need to have some real clear things to say. Here's what change will look like. Because if you get to the end and you don't really even have a clear plan, I will tell you, you'll be back here again and you'll be filling out the same analysis because just there's that idea like analysis can lead to paralysis. If I'm just analyzing endlessly without doing something with it, it doesn't help me. So it is the now what and the so what of the rest of this work. And hopefully you've got something really solid that you can communicate to your spouse and group. Say here's what the future is going to look like and I'll report to you how I'm doing on these commitments.

Yeah, and I think it's one of the things that comes to mind, we talked about this with our commitments to change is that we don't want to do these things that like, you know, I'm going to wake up at 5am every day and do recovery work. And it's like, well, you haven't been up since 5am since you were like 1 year old and you couldn't sleep through the night and your parents hated you and, and whatever, you know, okay, my trauma's coming out. But I think that doing things that are in the natural rhythm of your life that you can fit in. You know, for me, one of the best reframes I've ever had is my time in my car. For as long as I've worked at Pure Desire, it's been like four years. I've had at least 30 minutes in the car on my way to work and on my way back and so I can use or repurpose that time for my phone calls, for my check ins and so finding pockets of time that you already have or space you already have to implement new things or to implement. You know, I talked about it in the last episode as well, the idea of how important the outer circle activities are, what I'm doing to pursue health. And I think that that's what we're wanting to do here. Yeah, it's helping us establish guardrails or, sorry, guide rails or guard lines. Guard lines and guide rails, that's going to totally screw us up. But it's something that also helps us evaluate what are healthy practices that help me not get here again. And so I think it's important, you.

Know, I hear what you're saying Trevor, about we don't want to make Commitments that are unrealistic for us. But at the same time, I wouldn't want a listener to walk away thinking, oh, I shouldn't do anything too big.

Sure.

Because to go back to what we've been saying, this is a crash. And this could be deadly to a marriage, a relationship, a career, a life. And so this is the kind of analysis people have walked away from realizing they need to make some major life altering changes. I've had people in group realize I need to change jobs.

Yeah.

I will need to stop hanging out with that group of friends. I will need to sell that possession. I mean it. And I'm not trying to tell anyone what they should do. But I do want to emphasize, if you realize there's something big in your life that's got to go in order for you to stay sober, it's worth it. It's worth it, it's worth it. And if it's a big scary thing to get rid of or to deal with, but it would mean you could walk in sobriety, then go for it now. Don't do it alone. And then tell your spouse, hey, I quit my job. You don't want to surprise people. Make a big choice in conjunction with your group and your spouse. But if that's what you realize, like, good on you. Because if you're saying, I don't want to crash again and it's worth this, then that's exactly what this tool needed to get you to.

Yeah, good, good clarification.

So, Ashley, this has been awesome. Give some final thoughts or encouragement to people as they work on their crash site analysis.

This is a hard one. I would just say, I would just say it's worth it to do the hard thing. For me, I was, like I said, I was filling out a crash site analysis before this and it was very good because I haven't done one in a while because I've been so waning lately. But I'm just kidding. I haven't done one in a while. And it is hard work. It's like, it's almost like you. It's almost like sometimes you can feel wrong for going back there and wanting to look at the whole situation again. It's very vulnerable. It's very hard. And I would suggest that you just let some safe people know that you're doing it. Don't try to do it on your own. Let a couple people know that you are doing it. Because even if you do the crash site analysis on your own, it is going to be so good if you just let one Other pair of trusted eyes walk through that with you. And then as Trevor was saying with his car time, I recognize that sometimes I feel guilty for. I feel guilty for trying to protect things that I know that are healthy because it might not make sense to other people. And so part of, you know, like, sometimes I like to drive by myself as well because it's so healing for me. I listen to worship music, I may make those calls. And so then if other people want to ride with me, sometimes I'm like, no. And it seems so rude and selfish, but I couldn't articulate it until Trevor just explained it that that actually is such valuable time for me. Not that I always say no, but I do. There's certain things where I want to say no. And it just seems like I'd be rude and maybe being able to recognize those areas that keep me healthy and then be able to articulate that this is the time I xyz, I spend time with God and make my calls. So, you know, I really just want to protect that time because I'm a mom and I work and I don't get a lot of alone time. So I guess, I guess that would go back to like the three circles, identifying what are the things that do keep you healthy and keep on track and then also lean into that vulnerability. Invite at least one other person that understands this process and this journey to be able to look at your, your crash site as well.

Yeah, I was just thinking people just be like, why does Ashley and her husband, why do they always drive separate to everything they come to together?

Yeah.

Clearly Ashley just needs some alone time. I want to be careful when I say this to not by any means justify relapse or to chase it by any means. But relapse can be in recovery, one of the most fruitful and revealing moments of your recovery journey. And it's because at that moment you can do a crash site analysis. You can look at what led you to this point, what factors were involved, what situations, what emotions, what thoughts. Like, man, you're able to map it out so well. And what's great is the more, you know, kind of going back to even the first question or the first step of the. About being vivid. The more vivid you are or precise about the situation, the better you can plan and the better you can do it. And so if this is going to be one of the greatest potential launching points forward in health of your recovery journey, we need to leverage it.

Yeah. And that was my final encouragement. As I think about this, I'd really Encourage you when you're doing the crash site analysis to take it slow. If you just kind of read through the questions, make a couple of mental notes and you're done in a couple of minutes, it's not going to do much for you. I would recommend. And maybe this doesn't fit for some, but, you know, give it a try. This should take you over an hour to complete. Go to that first question and I would also encourage write it out by hand because that forces us to slow down, to analyze, to reflect and just look at the first question all by itself and write out, okay, what happened that day when I relapsed? Because it'll probably be a few minutes into writing out your day that you realize you'll remember something. Oh yeah, I'd been hiding that little thing too and never told my spouse. Okay, and now it's getting a pretty developed story and then go, okay, did that. Set it aside, question two and fully answer question two and go all in. If you do it that way, where you've got several sheets of paper that you have filled up, writing this out and being honest and analyzing now, it's going to do something for you. And also the process itself becomes some of the healing because it is. It's messy and it's painful and it's emotional and your brain goes, wow, there's a lot more here that I'm learning from and I don't like this and we don't want to be back here. That does become part of your avoidance of like, I don't want to have to do this again. And so that's the other commitment. I'd encourage you. You should do this every time. If there's a crash and then two days later you crash again, you need to go back to square one and take your time and walk through it and not just look at the one from a couple weeks or a couple of months ago and go, ah, okay, this is a little different. Update this, change that again. Now it's not going to help. And if you want to do that, I don't know that it's going to be worth your time. But if you invest the time, I think it'll really lead to fruit in your life. So that'd be my final encouragement. Listener. Take your time and believe that the process will really lead you to healing and change.

And that's why we suggest you use this tool. That's why this tool can be so helpful, because it helps you recognize your pattern. As we talked about even last week in our episode with Matrix, of addiction and even more so here. Here. It helps you see all the factors that contribute to a relapse so that we don't have to do it again. That is the whole point. So that we do not have to crash and relapse once again. So we will have it in the show. Notes make sure you use this tool and make sure your groups are using these tool and your group members are speaking into this if relapse happens. That you have outside perspective being able to see this and help you make those connections as well. So Ash, thanks so much for your time. Appreciate you being with us.

Us.

Yeah, thanks for having me.

And wherever you're at on your journey, Pure Desire is here to help create a road map for your healing. If you or someone you know is impacted by sexual brokenness or betrayal trauma, go to PureDesire.org and let's start the healing journey today. Don't forget to subscribe to the podcast and drop us a review if you can. It helps others find the podcast. Each week we put out new content to help you on the road to healing and freedom. And lastly, never stop being healthy.