230 - Healing Different Types of Trauma

You're listening to the Pure Desire Podcast, your safe place to find hope, healing, and freedom from sexual addiction, betrayal, and relationship issues. What's up, people? I'm your host, Trevor Windsor, and you're listening to episode 230 of the Pure Desire podcast Here joining me as always, is my co host, Nick Stumbo.

Marcia. Marcia. Marcia.

Brady Bunch.

The Brady Bunch. I could have just done that as the introduction. Brady Bunch could have sung a little. Here's the story.

I watched that show a little bit growing up.

That's impressive because it was before my time, which means it was way before your time.

Thank you.

A lot of reruns, too.

Thank you for honoring my age. Yeah. I'm interested to see how you tie it in today. So today we had Heather Kolb, our neuroscience expert, content manager, speaker, author, all the things that pure design on, to talk about the different types of trauma that we can experience and how to bring healing to each of them.

Yes. You know, and in the Brady Bunch, you had a divorced or widowed guy with three sons marry a divorced or widowed gal. I can't remember what the story was, but in that blended family, you know, there was trauma, there was unresolved issues, there was family of origin stuff going on all over the place. But obviously, that's not what the Brady Bunch focused on. Right. They just kind of tell these interesting stories, and they're always this happy family and. And they had the normal family squabbles. But I bring that up because I think for a lot of us, we try to live in kind of a Brady Bunch world. We know there's stuff there, but we'd rather just try to smile and get along and make it work and not recognize that we all bring things to the table from our past, from our families, from things we've gone through, and even from present circumstances that are impacting us. And if we just try to put a Brady Bunch smile on all of it, we're going to stay stuck. And I really think that's what today's conversation was about, was giving ourselves the grace to look at the trauma in our lives, identify it, and then look at how do I move through it so that I'm a healthier person for my family and for the world around me.

Yeah. When I see someone bypass their trauma now, I'm gonna be like, you're so Brady Bunching right now. Stop it.

Just start singing the Brady Bunch.

This is a really good episode. I do feel like it's gonna be really, really profitable for you. But a couple things, actually three things. Before we get going, subscribe to the podcast. Leave us a review. We're on all the major platforms. You can also follow us on social media with these full episodes up on YouTube and then Nick something we don't talk a lot about on the I mean, we reference a lot in the podcast, but we don't push or promote it all that often. And it's something I know that you've seen a lot of healing through. And it's Pure desire counseling. What encouragement would you give people who maybe feel stuck or maybe feel like they have a lot of trauma to pursue counseling?

Yes, well, we certainly give encouragement about counseling in today's podcast. So it's good to talk about this. That, yeah, Pure Desire really is a leading organization when it comes to providing top notch, biblically based counseling. And particularly for couples to be able to walk through a process together that's something that's made Pure Desire unique for a long time, is that our primary care model is to work with couples as couples. So in a husband and wife relationship, they both have a male and female counselor that are walking with them through the journey and helping them understand themselves and what's going on in the relationship. And that can be so powerful. And we've really put it into a significant one year process that as a couple's walking through recovery, they will be led through stages of healing that we have just seen consistently are what couples need. Now we also work with individuals. If your spouse is not ready to heal, whether they're on the struggling side or betrayed side, we're here to help and walk with you. And then we also can do trauma based recovery that doesn't necessarily have that, that one year timestamp on it. It may be more determined by the level of care someone needs. But all of that starts kind of through the same funnel of doing a peer desire evaluation. Which is the other thing that I love about our coun, that if you are asking that question, do I need counseling? I always say, well, do the evaluation. It's, you know, $500 for an individual, 700 for a couple somewhere in that neighborhood. But what you're going to do is you're going to take three or four online significant online assessments and then have an hour and a half meeting with a counselor to walk through it all. And they're going to do this thorough evaluation of your life and where you're at. And based on their professional experience, they're going to make a recommendation to you about what you need. And at that point you can decide to just be like, well, forget it. I don't really want to do this or to take it and move forward, but I just think what a moment of clarity that couldn't all of us benefit from. To let someone under the hood of our lives, so to speak, let someone who knows what they're looking for poke around in all the right places and ask the right questions so that then we can enter into a process that really leads to change. And that's what pure Desires counseling is all about, incorporating all the things we know about brain science, but also doing it on a deeply biblical foundation of faith in God and his healing power through Jesus. And it's unique. There's not a lot of groups out there doing what we do. So I hope for those that are listening, if you've never considered it, maybe after today, after this little moment and the podcast itself, maybe you will think about taking that next step.

That was probably one of the best plugs I've ever heard you give.

Wow.

Anything so. Well, there you go, sir. So if you are interested in counseling, go to PureDesire.org counseling and look at. We have free consultations, and we also have this evaluation process that Nick was talking about. All right, here's our conversation with Heather Kolb on healing different types of trauma. Heather Kolb, welcome back to the podcast.

Thank you. Happy to be here.

Yeah, we're glad to have you back. Okay. So in the realm of sexual addiction and betrayal trauma, we talk about specifically through our training through itap, the International Institute of Trauma Addiction Professionals, we've noticed that there are different types of trauma. And why trauma is important is because when it comes to our addiction or it comes from healing from betrayal, trauma is very much a part of it. Our wounds motivate those behavior. And so if we want to see healing in those areas or those struggles that we have, we need to find healing in the trauma as well. So we wanted to look at these different types, if you will, of trauma. And so let's just start with this first question. What are the different types of trauma? And can you describe them a little bit for us? Yeah.

So from most of my research, there's like, three different types of trauma that people will experience. Acute trauma, which tends to focus on one single big event. So somebody who has experienced a sexual assault or rape or even a big accident, that maybe they lost a loved one, something like that, that is going to really just happen one time in their lifetime. The next one is chronic trauma, which tends to be multiple traumas that happen multiple traumas to or around Them that happen in their lifetime. And then the third one is complex trauma, which can have elements of chronic trauma with it as well. But with complex trauma specifically, it focuses more on trauma that has happened between people and usually in interpersonal. Interpersonal trauma. Yeah, exactly. Interpersonal relationships where either like a child with a caregiver or a spouse has experienced some form of betrayal. And because of the perceived relationship, it adds this extra layer of trauma.

Yeah. And within a lot of the pure desire groups and workbooks that we have, we've kind of reduced it into two categories of the big T trauma, which is things done to us, the infringement, which would largely be those acute traumas that, Heather, you're talking about, or little T trauma or trauma of abandonment, things that have been kept from us. And I think sometimes if we're not leaning into, you know, going to a therapist to deal with trauma, if we're just trying to work through it on our own, sometimes those two categories to just ask the question, what was done to me or what was kept from me can help a person kind of identify what might be sources of trauma in their life. And with that, I would also mention because a lot of people in group will feel like, well, I didn't have much trauma, I didn't go through that much, or my life was pretty good, you know. Author Gabor Matei makes the statement. He says, trauma is not what was done to us. Trauma is what happened inside of us. And so the trauma we're really trying to get at is what did our brain interpret about the things happening around us? Because there is that reality that some people can go through very, very difficult things and what happens inside them internally isn't as traumatic versus another person can go through something relatively, you know, maybe in a social perspective, relatively minor, but the impact on their brain and their thinking because of their family of origin and the context of it and the way it connected to their emotions and feelings. Maybe it was some major impact because of what happened inside of them. And so the whole point of identifying the different kinds of trauma, I think is really for us to express. Trauma is a part of humanity. Trauma is a part of living. And so for all of us to recognize, what are the types, what are the places, what are the areas where we've experienced trauma or that our brain is interpreted as trauma, because when we see that, then we can start to actually face it and deal with it well.

And something too. That's interesting because I would say growing up I was someone who didn't feel like I had that acute Trauma, that big T trauma, that something was done to me. And so when I came to this area of. Or this really, this process of getting healthy was like, well, what do you mean, trauma? Like, you know, my parents are still together. I've never been, you know, abused or whatever. You mean fill in the blank. And for me, what I found myself doing was comparing trauma. And what's great is when you know that there are these different types. It does two things in my mind. It does. It reduces shame for you that what happened to me, even though it doesn't seem, compared to other people, as this big thing, it can still have a big impact on me and my life and cause brokenness to come out sideways in multiple different ways. And the second one is it helps me understand and be able to better relate to other people who maybe have experienced lesser or little T type of trauma compared to maybe some of my bigger moments. And it gives you compassion toward that person where it's like, you know what? I know that it seems like on the outside your life is perfect and what do you have to complain about? But then once you get under the surface, you find that they have these messages and these wounds that have happened over and over or been such a small level that have built this huge mountain of trauma over time. So I think it allows us to see ourselves with more compassion and also be more compassionate to other people.

Yeah. So as we've identified different kinds of trauma and ways that it might come, is the impact or the damage of the different kinds of trauma the same, or is it different based on the different kinds of trauma we experience?

Yeah, in my experience, the answer is yes. I would say there's. I have a really big. It was about four years ago, this really big thing that happened in my life and this really big trauma moment. And I have noticed, and I've even described it now with my counselor, with friends, with my group members, that it feels like everything going on in my life right now is tethered back to that moment where it made this major impact, where it felt like you can still feel the vibration, vibrations of that explosion, if you will. And I think that for me, those. Right now, that's a harder thing to shake. I find myself. It almost feels like it's the foundation that I'm walking on every day, as if my decisions are being made. And it's easy for me to point to that. It's easy to see, okay, what's happening right now. It's easier for me to point to one specific moment when it comes to Little T. Those are the more difficult ones in my mind. They tend to be more covert, where something that I didn't feel like I got a lot as a kid was credit for how hard I was working or how well I was doing because I was compared to other people. And so what that has made me want to do is perform and live to a high level and accomplish in all these things. And so for me, I learned a lie, a message about myself, which I think over time is actually more damaging than that big explosion in my life. But I just see that one having longer term because every decision I make is going to be based on what I believe. Believe about myself or my situation. And so I see that having more impact. I don't know if I can identify the complex. Maybe if I, you know. Well, that's something I'll talk to my counselor about next time. That betrayal piece. But. But definitely big T, little T. I've seen that in my life. And the impact is definitely different.

I think that, Nick, when you were talking about all of the things that we bring individually to the table, you know, our personality and our temperament and our past experiences and. And how all of those play a. How we perceive an event or what we. The feelings we walk away with. I think that that plays a huge role in the impact that any type of trauma would have on someone. I think there is an element or a truth behind the fact that if we have any type of trauma that is unhealed or unprocessed trauma, and then we heap more trauma on that, and we heap more trauma on that, and we, you know, and we continue that process. I think the impact and the damage that's done could potentially be greater just because what it's doing in our body and our brain in that process.

Yeah, yeah. I think what I hear you both saying is that the differences in trauma tend to be more person to person than it does between different kinds of trauma. That there's not a predictable roadmap. We can just give people to say, well, if you experience trauma A, then you're going to have this impact in your life. And if you've had trauma B, it'll feel like this because. Because every life, every person is different. But what does occur to me about this question, the impact, whether it's big T trauma, little T, acute, chronic or complex, that it can have a similar impact on someone's life for any of the traumas. Because if you think about it this way, what trauma does, One of the main things it does is it kind of keeps Us stuck in that moment, or it takes us back there. So the person that's lived through a war, they might have flashbacks because of noises or smells of being back in the war, but in a similar way, maybe someone that grew up in a very silent, high rules, low relationship kind of home, there may be sights or smells that take them back to that moment as well. Now, they may not be hearing gunfire and seeing explosions, but they're having the emotional feeling of being back in their childhood home. Well, for both of those people, you could see the impact might be it's what causes them to numb out and use something like alcohol or pornography because they don't like the way they're feeling. So two totally different kinds of trauma, two very different experiences of what it's taking them back to, but the impact can actually be the same. And that's what I think is one of the messages of this podcast, and we've talked about it before, that we don't want to try to compare or rate, like, well, my trauma was a lot less, therefore I shouldn't be as stuck in it, because it's just so different person to person. And the impact from big T, acute trauma, can be similar to the lasting impact of someone that experienced little T or chronic trauma.

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

So how can we tell then what type of trauma we've experienced?

Well, Tamiya, I think this is where the group experience can really help. Or having a counselor or a therapist, when you're able to sit with other people and really tell openly and honestly your whole story, I think that gives us the ability to see it more clearly, to tell that cohesive narrative. That's something we talk about in the seven Pillars, a freedom group that. That we may be living in a layer of denial or rationalization or minimization about our trauma because it's the only thing we've known. We can all only live one life, and to us, parts of it seem normal. And so until we can tell that whole story in the presence of others who are able to help us navigate it and maybe see things that we haven't seen before, it may be difficult to know what kind of trauma we've experienced. But, I mean, on the other hand, you could also listen to the definitions that Heather just gave us and say, well, I had something big that happened to me one time that's acute. I had something little that just kept happening over and over that was chronic. I had some trauma that came out of relationships that was probably complex. So there are some basic frameworks to it. But I Think to really identify maybe the heart of this question. What are the traumas that are most impacting me? That's where I see the value of a group. And at other times, sitting with a counselor or therapist.

Yeah. The thing that has stuck out to me in a group experience is that hearing other people's trauma helps me qualify what trauma I have. And so there may be something that I thought was little t that wasn't a big deal, but I hear six other people in my group say the same thing. And how impactful and meaningful and how life altering this thing was, that will help me think, oh, maybe that is bigger than I assumed. Because I think that, like, one of the things I've heard you, Heather, say a lot is that our brain wants to stay healthy and wants to protect itself. And so oftentimes what I have seen, what I've even experienced to a certain degree, is that our brain will try to minimize the damage of things that have happened to us so that we can function normal on a day to day basis. I don't know the technical terminology, and maybe I'm just making this up, but if I am, it's gonna sound really, really good. But I think that that's what's interesting is when you hear these other people talk about it, it's like, oh, no, no. That thing that I've minimized in my brain is actually a much bigger deal. And what's nice is to identify that then we can start to address the wound or the. The interpretation of that moment. We can start to interpret. Sorry. We can start to address the wrong interpretations we have of that moment and start to bring truth and light to it.

Yeah. And I think sometimes the group specifically, and especially when we're talking about pure desire groups and dealing with people who struggle with addictive behavior or who have experienced betrayal, that is a very specific niche of group, I think, where people can expect that I'm going to be able to come here to this safe environment and I can talk about these things that other people will understand what I'm saying. Because I can't just go to ladies Bible study and talk about the trauma I experienced through my husband's sexual addiction. You know what I mean? Or something like that. But I think that it really is intentional about bringing up all of these things that really go together with our behaviors and with how we respond to traumatic events in our lives. But it puts it in a place, a safe place, where we can just put it all out there and without judgment or without any condemnation and find healing. It's amazing.

So, Nick, one of the things you mentioned was the idea that. Or the fact that trauma can freeze us, can stick us in, like, a specific place. And so I think with that comes, like, a lack of awareness that that is something that there's some wrong or trauma that we've experienced. So how would we know? I mean, I know that some of it in group can maybe happen, but how do we know if we have unhealed trauma in our lives? Big, little, chronic, whatever.

Yeah, this is a great question because it really does take a level of awareness to be able to recognize what we're feeling in the moment. Because a lot of us who've experienced trauma, especially if it was a long time ago, we tend to either shove it down or think, okay, well, I went through group one year and I dealt with that and it's done. And I never want to go there again. But yet our response to a situation might reveal that there's something else there. And especially if we either respond in a way that doesn't match the situation, or we end up responding in a way that doesn't match who we are. So, like, for me, a big indication that something. That I still have a tender spot about something is if I get weepy. Because I am not by in nature. I'm just not a weepy person. I don't cry a lot.

Growing up, she used to say, you hurt my feeling. Like, singular. Heather's my aunt, for anyone who doesn't know this. But she used to say that you hurt my feelings.

Yeah.

And so I know that if I am talking about something and I start to feel weepy about it, that there's something there that needs to be investigated. And if I'm brave enough to do that, then that's where I'm going to find that maybe I do have an area that's unhealed.

Yeah. If you think about it, what happens with trauma is our brain learns from it and says, I've got to protect myself because this hurt and I don't want to be hurt again. And so it creates a limbic response being that inner brain that's responsible for our protection and those human survival kind of instincts and that part of our brain. And this is what I learned coming to pure desire 11 years ago. That has been so helpful. That part of our brain doesn't keep track of time. It doesn't go, oh, that was five years ago. We can forget because the brain has identified it as synonymous with survival. And this I will need to know forever. And so we encapsulate it there and continue to have those limbic responses of fight, flight, or freeze. And as Heather informed us before this episode, there are even more that now I have to learn about and add.

How many other f words can I come up with?

But if that's the system into it, trauma leads to protection, leads to a limbic response, then what we can do, what Heather's describing is just reverse the process. That if I see where there's a limbic response, I can start to ask myself, you know, when I'm getting triggered by anger, or I just want to run away, or I just want to shut down and go to bed and ignore the world when I'm feeling that, say, oh, what am I trying to protect myself from? And then ask the question, where might that have first happened? Where I learned that this is how I protect myself. Because I've experienced trauma in this area, and it could be something that happened a year ago, or it could be something that happened 40 years ago. Because that part of your brain, like I said, isn't keeping track of time. It's just said, these are things I need to protect myself from. And so if we can follow the trail backwards, that can often reveal where we might be stuck in some unhealed trauma.

One of the cool things about seven pillars of freedom and the other materials that we have, where it will help you dig under some of those overreactions or under reactions that you have in life. And it'll. In some of the exercises, you'll be asked to think about a time when you were growing up. And if you can remember everything about that experience, then it was traumatic, it had an impact. And I'm talking more on the negative side. Like, I can think of a time where. And I'll just tell the story right now. And I don't know, it seems silly because I'm going to say it. People are like, well, that compared to my trauma, Trevor, that's nothing. So I remember. I don't know why I'm telling this story. I remember I went into the bathroom. I was maybe 10 years old. I was at grandma and grandpa's house. I went into the bathroom, and everyone, for some reason, you know, when you were kids, you used to take all the old toilet paper rolls and tape them together and make them binoculars, and we'd like, squeeze the end and make them swords and stuff like that. And there weren't enough for me to play. And so I went to the bathroom and I used the right amount of toilet paper. I'm just being honest that's what happened. The right amount of toilet paper. And I came out and the toilet paper had been had. It was gone. And so I took it, I brought it out. I like, oh, cool, I have one. You know, I have one of these rules to play with. And my grandma came up to me and said, I can't believe that you would waste toilet paper just to get one of those. And it was just like, what? No, I didn't. Like, I used the normal amount. It just so happens I now have a toy that I get to play with and go play with the rest of my cousins. I remember what she was wearing. I remember where we were. I remember how I felt in that moment. And that, for me, is proof that that was a traumatic and wounding experience for me. And so there are times now, further down the road into recovery, when I have an experience that, like, basically pokes that wound. My brain goes right back to that moment. And so that's how, like. And I still have a lot of healing I need to bring to that, that my needs matter and my experiences matter, which I've been told that lie a number of times in that moment, specifically, that my needs don't matter and that maybe I use too much toilet paper, but whatever.

I think that's a great example because many of us have stories like that. If we look at. In the context of our adult life, it's like, well, it wasn't that big of a deal, but as a kid or in that moment, it was. And it's part of. It's just acknowledging it mattered to me, and I need to unpack why. And it also helps me know I should just be careful what I say to Trevor around the office. You know, if he's coming out of the bathroom, don't be. Too many funny comments might trigger something.

There we go. There we go.

Let's talk about it this way. How would someone know if they have unhealed trauma? And maybe especially for that person who's listening, kind of saying what we've been talking about, like, I don't think I've had much trauma. My life's been pretty good. How does unhealed trauma impact our lives? Because I think if we can look at how unhealed trauma impacts our lives, it may give us the motivation to go, oh, I need to do some work here. So how could that unhealed trauma be presently impacting someone's life, even if they don't know it's there?

Yeah, okay. And so you kind of touched on this a little bit when you Were talking about how our brain responds and we have this limbic response. But I'm gonna take this a little bit broader and just so that people understand that like you mentioned, that our brain was designed for survival, that our sympathetic nervous system, when we feel any form of threat at all, it is going to start to ramp up and it's going to give us everything that we need to either fight the threat or run away from it or freeze. And we won't talk about the other ones, but it's going to give us the energy and all the resources that we need to survive. And then once the threat is over, then our parasympathetic nervous system is going to put on the brakes again. It's going to bring our body and our brain back to this calm state because we feel safe. What happens when people experience trauma is that their sympathetic nervous system, it ramps up and it stays on. And especially if they are in a situation of chronic trauma or complex trauma, their brain doesn't ever, that lever doesn't ever get shut off. And so they're chronically living in this heightened state of awareness and protection and not necessarily understanding where the threat is going, coming from. And all of these things create really a lot of chaos in our brain and in our body. And so I think that that's one of the things that, especially if we could tie it back to something that's happening or something that maybe we weren't aware of it, but now our level of awareness is growing and we recognize it in our environment is really just to recognize what's happening in our brain and body that's keeping us at that high, high level. And even behaviorally that's gonna look like sleep disturbances and eating disturbances and suspicious behavior. And you know, all of these things that aren't normally a part of our world. But because our brain is stuck in this high alert stage, we need to figure out why. Because it wasn't ever intended to be stuck in this on position. It's not good for our body, it's not good for our survival, really. And so it's figuring out that impact that's really important.

Yeah. Another example. This isn't a toilet paper story, I promise. We get to the point. So we have two young sons and they have the needs of a four and a half year old and a one and a half year old. And what's interesting is kind of going back to the story with my grandma outside the bathroom in her house. I remember feeling like my needs didn't matter. And then I had kids and I realized that once you start having conversations with your kids, your needs really don't matter. And so what I've realized is, and I'm still. This is a current struggle for me right now is that if my son, specifically Brady, my four and a half year old, is doing something that's irritating to me or even makes me feel disrespected or like my needs don't matter, you can see my jaw is clenched and my hands are tight because I'm like. It is an overreaction and it's something where, like just the other, just the other night, I mean, at night we put him down and if he needs to get up and go to the bathroom, he'll call us into the room like normal kids do for their parents. Parents. I'm fuming on my way down. It's like, don't you. Here's what's going on in my head. Don't you understand? It's my turn now. I get to do what I want to do. I'm done caring for you. Why do you need me right now? Don't you understand? I have homework and I have a TV show to watch and I have sleep to get right. And that's not what he's doing. He's not doing that. But for me, my brain associates it with. That's what he's telling me. And so the way I treat even my kids or other people around me, my spouse, my friends, my community, my co workers. Absolutely. That's how trauma impacts those day to day relationships, is it shows up in ways where I end up hurting and wounding other people for something that they didn't do and they didn't intend to do. But yet my interpretation, it's like, well, it's on. We gotta fight, let's go.

Yeah. There's a great quote here that I know exists and I just can't think of it. But it's like if we don't heal, we will bleed on those that didn't cut us. It's the idea of we will perpetuate on others the pain that someone else inflicted. Yeah. And I think that's the motive for me of working on our trauma. It's that if I'm stuck in some trauma, I will react to my spouse, I will react to my kids, just like you're describing, in ways they don't deserve and didn't earn. Because as you described, Heather, my brain is not in a healthy place. It's kind of in this heightened state of awareness. And I'm more concerned about self protection than I am relationship. And I can lash out. I can be critical, I can be condescending. I can have. Have harsh sarcasm. I mean, all the things that I do in my personality, just like all of us do. But if I realize, man, that's really not even about them, it feels so unfair and it's so unjust that I'm kind of putting on you what wasn't even yours. I mean, and in every relationship, there's faults. No one is perfect. And we might have instances where there's conflict with our spouse and kids, that they are responsible for creating some conflict, but our reaction is always our responsibility. And if I realize I'm reacting in a way that isn't consistent with who I am, then I've got to do some work so I don't hurt people that don't deserve or that didn't do anything to merit that kind of response for me. Not to say anyone ever deserves to be hurt, but you understand what I'm saying that if someone is in direct conflict with us, if you punch me, you shouldn't be surprised if I punch back. But if you look at me funny and I punch back, it's like, whoa, wait, that's not a good response. So being aware of that and realizing if I don't deal with it, I'm going to hurt my present relationships because of past wounds.

Maybe this is the quote that you're thinking of. I heard one this morning on a podcast that what doesn't get transformed gets transmitted. And one of the things that came to mind as you were sharing Nick, was that if I don't heal that wound, what I will be doing over and over and over again in my response to my son in this is also wound him to where he's now going to have trauma. And it's probably going to be. I mean, at that point, there's no like, physical harm or anything that's happening. But it's not a loving compassion that I'm extending to him and a care for him. And so he's going to learn that message that my needs don't matter. Dad doesn't care if I need to go to the bathroom or if I can't find my lambie or if I can, whatever it may be. And so I end up traumatizing because of my own trauma and not dealing with it. I end up traumatizing and just, just perpetuating that same narrative in my kid's life. And that's frustrating and sad. And that's a huge reason why we need to Deal with our trauma.

Yeah, that awareness piece is huge.

I wish awareness fixed it. It doesn't, by the way.

So how then do we actually heal, bring healing to our trauma? What does that process look like?

A great example in my life, because the thing I'm going to describe is you need new experiences to replace the old ones. I was sitting with my son. We were listening to worship music in our house, and we're sitting on one of our chairs in our living room. And I don't even know why, but we just were listening to music and my 4 year old came and sat on my lap and we were just sitting there listening to worship music together and we weren't saying anything. We were just. We sat there for probably 15 minutes. And I cannot tell you, like, I started crying just in the moment, feeling love for my son and feeling loved that he spent time with me. And in that moment I felt something change. And I don't know if I could tell you tangibly, you know, how it has impacted it, but I know that I can think of that moment as a healing moment to this little boy who oftentimes feels like he doesn't care about my needs, does care about me. And so it's that replacement piece, which I think is really, really important. And you know, a huge way this plays out in pure desire is group groups that you have been wounded in relationships so often in life, and yet it is really going back into relationship where you get healed. And so it's that replacing. You think of unwanted behaviors, you think about betrayal, trauma, things that have happened to you and how you shared that in the past, maybe at like the Bible study. And people are just like, oh, honey, we don't, we don't share that there, like here in that moment, it's not safe for me. That's what I learned. But if you go to a betrayal and beyond group and it's like, oh, honey, we share that every single week, like, here we go. And I think that what that does is that retrains our brain and renews a sense that my needs do matter and that my experience and story do matter.

Yeah. In the seven Pillars of Freedom workbook, the last Pillar six deals a lot with this and we've talked about it in our conferences. But there's four steps that I could simplify to say. You need to see it, name it, claim it, and then reclaim it. And see it is just that process of like, I need to get out, I need to tell someone, I need to write it out, I need to tell the story. And as I tell the story, see it, then I can name it, say, this is what happened to me. I was hurt, or I was abused, I was neglected, I was wronged. And then claiming it is accepting that that's part of my story. Now. It's not something I ignore or try to forget about, but I just, I see the way God is integrating that into my current reality. And then the reclaim it is going to that next level of how can God actually use this for good, not only in my life, but also then through me in the lives of others. And I think that's, that's kind of a. A process that sounds simple, but is not. I mean, that could be decades of work to see it, name it, claim it, and reclaim it. Yeah, but I think we can recognize maybe some stages of where we may be that as someone's listening, they may just be in that place. They need to see it, they need to recognize it. Others may be able to recognize it, but they've never really owned and said, this is what happened to me. For others, it's now integrating it into their story. And then still others, it's making it a part of their future. And so, so we can kind of see where we're at. And that might give us an understanding of what our next step could look like.

Yep.

I also think that sometimes, and especially somebody who has experienced a lot of trauma and has maybe a lot of unhealed trauma, that going to see a counselor is sometimes the best first step because they might not be able to share their story with a group yet because they can't even make sense of their trauma yet. And they're still in that high alert stage. And so even just going to a professional who deals with what you're going through, if it's trauma because of grief or if it's trauma because of betrayal or whatever it is, that you seek out some help first, maybe just one on one to get that started.

So we've talked about this in a number of kind of sideways ways throughout the conversation so far, but what role do other people have in the healing of our trauma?

Yeah, you know, we've heard Ted and Diane Roberts say this so many times that we were wounded in relationships and were healed in relationships. It's rewriting that story. And that begins honestly, first and foremost, in our relationship with God and through Jesus Christ, inviting him into those places in our trauma. Because that's what I find for a lot of people, they may know, you know, cognitively that Jesus loves them, but until they've seen Their trauma and invited Christ into that trauma to say, how do you feel about this? And where were you when this happened? And they begin to experience the love of Christ in that place that's now a healthy relationship. That changes the message of that trauma. And in a similar way, the relationship we can have with other people, you know, is often the way that the love of Christ is communicated to us. Because I may not really believe that God can love me in the places of my shame or brokenness. And the lies we've listened to there sometimes have been so deep for so long that it's not until I tell others about it and what I get from them is love and acceptance that I start to realize, like, wow, maybe God loves me too, because others still do. And then we're just. It's kind of the combination of the two, both experiencing the love of God and also experiencing love and affirmation through others, which communicates to us, to a degree the love of God.

Yeah, absolutely. I think that one of the most powerful things that can happen is when we're in group and we share something about our trauma or our story, and somebody looks at us and their expression on their face, the tears in their eyes, really, I don't know, validate the trauma that we've experienced. And it is really, really powerful in, I think, the healing process just to have that compassion and feel that empathy from others and that validation that, yeah, this was trauma, and, yeah, it makes sense of the way it impacted your life.

Yeah. Yeah.

I just feel like keeping things in is just never helpful and assuming, you know, we've talked about this before, Timing doesn't heal all wounds. And yet we learn that narrative or we somehow absorb that narrative from our family or from culture or whatever. And over time, we continue to have this limp, and we're not really sure why. And it's because we just assumed those things would go away. And so that's what's so beautiful about the group experience, is that it, in, the, like, most beneficial and loving way, forces you to go down and figure out what's underneath all your behaviors, all the trauma and wounds you have.

Yeah. So I think we're emphasizing that healing isn't something we do in isolation, which means that you and I will be involved in other people's healing as well. So what role do we play in the healing of others? And maybe in particular, for our spouse, the person that we see, and for those who are married that we see and know best, we may be aware of trauma that we would like them to deal with or we'd like them to heal. What's a healthy role for us to play and where do we need to maybe take a step back and let it be their story?

Yeah, this is a great question, and I'm just going to use an example that is not tied necessarily to addictive behavior or betrayal trauma. But my husband, when we got married, he had shared some stuff about his past. And I was going to school at the time and was learning so much about trauma and behavior. And we would talk about it, and he would say, well, I don't have any trauma. And my eyes would go kind of big, like, dude, I know parts of your story. And he would say that all the time. And finally I got to a point where I said, so you don't think that your dad dying when you were seven was trauma? No, I don't really even remember it. You know, that was his response. And then time would go by and he would say that, oh, yeah, I don't have any trauma. He would use that phrase. And I'd say, so you told me. I thought you told me that in junior high you were suicidal. And he's like, yeah, but that wasn't trauma. And I'm just like, oh, my gosh, you know, because those are huge trauma things. That's not normal for a junior high person to be suicidal. And so it's taken years of just this, for me, anyway, this soft approach. Even though in the process I would say, you know, you might want to talk to somebody about this, you know, because I'm not your therapist, you know, I'm your spouse. And. But it just was. It took time, and it's been probably the last five to seven years where he's come to this realization. And even just seeing the way that those big trauma things that happened in, not just in his life, but in his family affected his siblings and his parents, and for him to have that level of awareness, to now be able to say, oh, yeah, I have huge trauma from my past, but that many years ago for him, it wasn't trauma. And so I think that that process can be kind of long and hard, and especially if we see it in their life and they are not yet to a point where they see it.

Yeah, I think the. The wrong answer here is to say that's trauma. Don't you see that? You're stupid, right? I think two things that come to mind are when we're able to share about our trauma and our wounds that we carry and the experience, you know, we're vulnerable and can let our spouse or let other people who are close to us into our lives and see that. I think that that helps them think through like oh, because if they've had a similar experience, they're going to remember that in that moment. And it's not a manipulative thing, it's just something that, and we see this play out in group all the time that you share your story and as you're sharing your story, someone has another thought that comes to mind. It helps them on their journey and the other one is just asking questions. You know, I think almost like properly responding when someone says, like when I was this age, this happened. Not just be like, oh, you know, and move on if it's a big deal and you know, it would be traumatic. Maybe it's like, well, what was that like for you at that age? And that's a really open ended question that can help them. Maybe it's almost like you're handing them the shovel and it makes it a lot easier for them to start digging. But again, those two can be super manipulative and so you got to be careful of that. But I think that those are two real simple ways that you can help people.

Yeah, we've talked about it a lot, but I think just the power of empathy that when someone is sharing that, we really try to enter in and feel their pain with them. We've also said a lot that we don't want to be shocked at someone's behaviors, but we do want to be appropriately shocked at their trauma and point out like it is wrong that that happened to you and I am really sorry or to say that is not the way God designed families to work or that was not what God had in mind for marriages or you know, whatever happened. But just to be able to state truth of like that wasn't right. And it's okay to call that out in a way of saying to them, and I can, I can understand that what you're feeling.

Yeah.

Must be really hard or difficult and, and to not just, you know, we say, oh, it's important to listen. Yes, listening is important. But I think listening with our feelings and, and being there with them, there's something powerful about that. I remember a story I read in a book of, I think it was Navy specialists who were trying to rescue people out of combat situations and particularly hostages. And they were having these experiences when they would go to rescue hostages and they, you know, barge, they're like, come on, let's go, out, out, out. Like people wouldn't move. Yeah, and what they realized in the process is that these hostages were so frozen in their trauma that what the specialists had to do is they had to get down on the person's level and like, hunker down with them and cower and just say, you know what? It's going to be okay. Would you leave? And in a very gentle way, invite them. Because then they entered into their world and how then they were able to execute their mission. And I thought, what a powerful lesson of how if I'm stuck in my shame and trauma and someone hears it and goes, oh, sorry, bro, let's move on and kind of treats it dismissively, or maybe they listened really well, but then we just move on. It can actually almost re emphasize the idea that, yeah, there's something really wrong with my pain versus people that take the time to crouch down and sit with us and get low and go, man, I understand where you're at and the difference that makes for us.

Yeah, it's huge.

So how do we know then if we have areas of unhealed trauma?

I think one of the ways that I think I've seen is that when I'm able to hear someone's story and use my experience, I think this is in line with the empathy piece that I'm able to share. You know, I had an experience like that too, and this is how I felt, and these are the lies that I believed, and this is how it manifested in my life and then share. And this is how I started to find healing for that. I think if we're able to confidently, in an empathetic way, share our trauma with someone else, there's some traction there. Because if there isn't any healing with your trauma, you are not going to talk about it. And so I think that that's a way of connecting with people. And I think what you were talking about with the reclaim, like that's what comes to mind is it's a way of I'm reclaiming this really bad part of my story in order to help someone else and own that it is a part of my story, but use it as a tool to help this person gain more traction in their own healing.

Yeah, I think first we notice things that we'll hear ourselves thinking, huh? Usually that makes me really angry. Why am I not getting angry? Or usually I'm freaking out when this happens, Or I'm getting super, super stressed and I'm not today what? But it's like, oh, I've kind of identified the false lies there, and I'm not jumping to the same fearful conclusions. And that can be really encouraging when we see that happening. But even more maybe the second thing that happens is others start to notice when people close to us say, how come you're not. Usually you get really angry about that. Last time that happened with one of our kids, you blew up with them, and today you're not. It's like, oh, yeah, I'm learning that I have a choice to react differently. I don't have to just be stuck. And so. So I think looking for that and really taking a moment to pause and celebrate, like, there's progress. Like, yes, I'm not just going to be the same reactive, angry, anxious person that I've been. I can grow and move forward. And when we see that, say, okay, I'm moving the right direction. Now, keep in mind, it's not always going to be linear. Or is it linear? I always. I'm smiling at how it's linear, linear. It's not going to be that perfect line moving up, up. There's going to be steps back. There's going to be times we feel like we're cycling back around, and that's normal. But when we do see those steps forward to celebrate it and realize there's growth here.

Totally.

I also think that when we share our story over and over and over again, and the first time we share our story in group or wherever, and it's really emotional and we can barely get through it, and then over time, by the fifth time that we've shared our story, we're not as emotional. And even though we understand it, but there's been healing through that process. And then by the tenth time that we share it, we don't get emotional at all, but yet can just, say, tell a coherent narrative of what happened. And I think that right there is evidence that your trauma is healing, that you're in that process.

Yeah. Yeah, totally. Okay, so maybe someone's listening and they've worked on their trauma, they've identified it. They've gone through the four steps, Nick, that you talked about, experienced this level of healing, but still feel stuck. What should they do?

I mean, at that point, just like, grab a pint of ice cream and just give up. Right? I mean, like, go to town on.

The cookie dough ice cream.

Seriously, though, like, on that level, the first thing I would say is, don't beat yourself up and shame yourself. Maybe you do need to just take a deep breath and eat a bowl of ice cream. Be like. Like, you know what? I'm still here. And I think the danger there is, we tend to compare to others or our own expectations. We look back and say, I thought I would be further along by now. And when we do that to ourselves, we just need to have the grace to realize, I'm not helping. I'm actually putting more shame into the story and just prolonging the process. So give yourself that grace to say your healing is going to take as long as your healing takes. And if you're doing group, if you're being open with friends, if you're telling your story and you feel like you've done some of those kind of foundational steps, that is really where if you've not sat with a trained therapist, that it's their job to walk with people through trauma, that'd be like a prime example a of why you should seek that out. It's when you get stuck, that's why they're there. And that's not an admission that you're weak or bad or not good enough. That's just recognizing there's something about my trauma that may be so hidden to me or that I have learned to kind of block for so long where I have developed such, you know, such powerful coping strategies that my brain can't really see any other way to do it. I'm probably not going to figure this out without an expert that can kind of guide me through something. So I think those two things don't shame yourself and at some point, really look to get professional help. That's why they're there.

We were at an event. It was, I think, the beginning of March in 2020. It was probably the week before the first Covid shut down. And there was just a small team of us at a Pure Desire event at a local college. And we were driving there, and I started talking about this trauma that I was feeling that this. And it wasn't anything that was big that was done to me or whatever, but it was. I had noticed some things that in my behavior, like an exaggerated startle response or something. Some of these things that I normally don't do. But this thing was here. And so. And Bob Vandermeer, he was one of the people on the trip. And so I'm kind of just explaining where I think that this is.

Who's a counselor, by the way?

Yes, he's on our clinical team. Yes. And I was saying how you know this is. I know. I know where this is coming from. I know. But my brain keeps looping it around in the same track, and I'm not getting any, like, resolution to it or closure. And I said, so I've been thinking about going to see a counselor. And he's like, oh yeah, you should. I mean, right away, because he recognized that, that there was something there, that there was something significant, and that I was even asking the questions to say, this is kind of what I'm thinking about. And even though I could make sense of it to a certain extent, there was a part of it that I couldn't get past. And so I was gonna need somebody who had specific special training to help me get past that, whatever it was. And then Covid happened and I haven't gone back, I haven't gone to counseling, but it's there, it's waiting, because I still plan to do that because I know that it's something that will eventually get bigger and trip me up. And I don't want that to happen.

It's interesting you say it that way because I think sometimes there are some other things maybe we haven't worked on other areas of life that may be catering to that stuckness that we don't even realize. And so if you've gotten some traction in a certain area and you do feel stuck, explore maybe some of those other domains of life or those other things that you want to work on and try to make those connections. Do you see? Well, my lack of self care actually leads to this and, you know, this maybe negative narrative that I just carry all day, all day, and if I were to do a little bit more self care or get some more sleep or change my diet, that maybe some of those things would change. That's not like a silver bullet, but that is something that we can, we can do, that we have control. We can control what we can control and we can bring change to different areas of our life and maybe see that crossover, that overlap, maybe can kick start some stuff.

Stuff.

But what I hear both of you guys saying is inviting other people in is very, very important. If you feel stuck, if you feel stuck, you're not going to get unstuck by yourself. Recovery is not a by your, you know, pulling your bootstraps up as high as you can and get going. We know it's not a try harder, do better, pray more, love Jesus, more things. So trauma is a real thing. Trauma is something that all of us carry. Whether you realize it or not, your body even physically carries the trauma that you've been through in life. And if we really want to heal from addiction, if we do want to see that sexual brokenness no longer in our life, if you want to heal from the effects of betrayal trauma. We have to heal trauma. So Heav, thanks for being here and this is a really good conversation, guys. Appreciate it.

Yeah, thanks you guys.

And wherever you're at on your journey, Pure Desire is here to help create a roadmap for your healing. If you or someone you know is impacted by sexual brokenness or betrayal trauma, go to PureDesire.org and let's start the healing journey today. Don't forget to subscribe to the podcast and drop us a review. It helps others find the podcast. Each week we put out new content to help you on the road to healing and freedom. And lastly, never stop being healthy.