231 - Stories of Healing: Trevor Winsor

You're listening to the Pure Desire Podcast, your safe place to find hope, healing, and freedom from sexual addiction, betrayal, and relationship issues. Hello. Hello. I am your host, Trevor Windsor, and you're listening to episode 231 of the Pure Desire podcast here joining me, as always, is my co host, Nick Stumbo.

Turn the beat around Want to feel some action? Turn it upside down Something, something, something Sorry, that's all I know.

That's all. That's all you know. Let's just. Let's just transition real quick. Let's just get into probably a good.

Idea.

Because every time I hear that song, I think of the movie Pitch Perfect, which is hilarious. It makes me want to watch it again. Okay, so today we had an interesting turning of the table a little bit where we actually talked about my story on today's episode.

Yeah, I think our listeners are going to be excited. They finally get kind of your whole story. We've told pieces of it here and there, but great to have you share that today. And so we're turning the mic around, we're turning the camera around, and putting the focus on you. Our host are today the guest. So I think people are really going to enjoy getting to hear your story, and we just appreciate your willingness and vulnerability to share it with our listeners today.

Absolutely. And thank you for that listener who requested it. That was cool. I don't think we. Because we got to do yours not that long ago either. And the same guy asked if. If we could both do our stories of healing and we wouldn't have necessarily got that opportunity. So that's cool.

I mean, in fairness, we did mine so long ago, people probably forgot the original one. Yeah. So we redid. We had Michelle and I on.

That's right.

Recently.

That's right.

If you really want to hear my whole story, listener, you have to go to one or two. I can't remember which it is. Yeah, one or two. So you got to go old. Old school.

Oh, man.

And you can hear on different audio format. My story.

It was just. It's painful. The audio, like the quality.

It wasn't that bad. You're being hard on us yourself.

We should have had Justin back then. All right. It was bad. Okay, So a few things before we get into it. Subscribe to the podcast, review it. And here, I'll just say this. We get a lot of reviews of people who give it a certain number of stars, but don't leave a comment. It's really, really encouraging and super cool when we see the comments. What's been impactful for you, what we can do better, what we can keep doing. So leave a review, make sure you subscribe, share it with your friends. Also, follow us on social media. We're earedesirepdmi. And then also you can search, we have these full episodes up on YouTube and then, Nick, we like to circle back around to it again because it is such an introductory first step into recovery. It's our video course, Sexual Integrity 101.

Yes. Sexual Integrity 101, meaning introductory, the beginning, the place you start. Right. We get so many questions from people of what do I do if my kids are struggling? What can we do to address this in our church? What should I do if I'm stuck in a negative pattern? Like all these questions that have to do with our sexuality, the brokenness that we've encountered, the struggles we go through, or how to help people around us that we see caught up in something. And that is exactly why we created Sexual Integrity 101, is we wanted to provide a format whereby people could easily access this material because it used to be primarily just part of an event for us. And unless you were there in person, paid the money to attend and to show up, you couldn't get the content. But now, because it's both streaming and on dvd, it's something you could watch in the safety and confidentiality of your own office or living room or with a small group or a large group at your church. Because whatever the circumstances, it's meant to educate and equip. And for some, that equipping will mean they go on and take deeper steps in their own healing. But for others, that'll mean they can be more engaged simply in encouraging and supporting those that are getting help. So if you haven't seen it yet, you know, the question would be, why not, like, jump in, get SI101, go through it with your spouse or a group at church. And I think it'll really just increase. Much like the podcast, it will increase your level of knowledge and insight so that God can use you more in this area, whether for yourself or for others.

Yeah. So if you want to get Sexual Integrity 101, go to PureDesire.org101. All right, here is Nick and Justin Watson interviewing me on my story of healing.

Trevor, welcome to the Pure Desire podcast.

Welcome.

Good to have you never been here before?

First time caller, long time listener. Right.

It's a little bit of a role reversal here, but thanks for being willing to jump on today and share your story with our Pure Desire audience.

Yeah, absolutely.

Yeah. So we're excited to have you. And I know listeners that have gone through 230 episodes know some of your story, what they may not know or have ever seen before. For Those watching on YouTube is for the first time ever, Justin will get to interview a guest with me.

I am interviewing.

Wow.

Because you were on. Was he on the episode 200?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Our celebration. We actually let you on camera.

Yeah, you let me on camera. I thought you were about to reintroduce me as this being my first time again. And then you like quickly, like readjusted toward the end.

Well done. Something about this felt first time, but it's like, what's the first time? Is you being a part of interviewing?

Yes, that's what it's like when people are sitting on, waiting to be interviewed.

Are they going to ask me questions or what? So let's get to it.

Trevor. I'm glad they invited us to our party. Sorry, go ahead.

Trevor Windsor's story of healing. So before we jump into the whole story, Trevor, just could you give us a little bit of your background, tell us about your family of origin, where you grew up, some of that stuff and just kind of the culture of your home as a kid.

Yeah. So born and raised, Portland, Oregon. People ask me all the time, would you ever move? And the answer is always no. Even though it's raining and depressing outside. But yeah, I'm the oldest of four boys born into a Christian family. I would say my dad was a first generation believer on his side and then my mom was a second generation believer growing up like it was sports and church, that was really all life was about. Um, and so I just felt like we were always at church. And I'm one of those kids who like, I empathize. I empathize with the kids who are like waiting for their parents to leave church. They're like, mom, can we go now? It's like, yes, five more minutes. And then five minutes goes, hey, mom, can we go? Yes, five more minutes. You know those kids that sat out in the lobby or in the car? So I grew up in and around church a lot. Parents were in ministry and I would say culture. In my house, my parents were viewed as really almost like tribe leaders in the communities they were in. They were looked to as, as really, as really helpful. They were really good at discipleship and mentorship. And I felt like everywhere you turned, there was someone's life who was impacted by conversations or time with them. So I grew up with desiring influence because of that. You Know, that's a huge thing. And doing. Because of that, doing what was right was really, really important. And so I wouldn't, you know, we talk about it a lot on the pod. Been on a few times that there's. There's a lot of people grow up in a lot of rules, but not a lot of relationship type of situation. I would say I had both. There were a lot of rules and there was a lot of relationship, but there were times and seasons where one maybe was a little bit more. And so I. It wasn't something where I felt like I didn't get a lot of relationship from both my parents. I would say, growing up, intellectually, theologically, those things were very, very pressed. And maybe not even something that was communicated, but more something I picked that, like, my dad was viewed as this theological giant. And I can remember times where there were, like, all of the men in the world I respected were sitting at a table having this deep, rich, theological conversation. And my dad always felt like he was the one who people would, like, lean on. He was almost the centerpiece that held everything together. And so I always desired that. And I would say in the realm of sexuality, a quick story to kind of describe where it was at in that culture. I remember when someone told me the F word for the first time. I remember his name. I'm not going to say it, but I also remember him asking me in that moment if I was a virgin. And I didn't know idea what that word meant. We were hanging out with all the kids in the. You know, back when kids could go out in the middle of the street and play. And there was nothing wrong with that because you wouldn't do that with. Right.

Seriously.

And I remember these two really small moments where I was asked if I was a virgin. I looked to my friend and he was just like, say yes. Say yes. And I'm like, okay. And I turn. He goes, no, no, no. Say no, say no. And I said, no. And I remember all the kids laughing at me, and I had no idea what I had just said. And so there was a lot of shame already tied to that. That same exact day, I heard the F word for the first time. And I went home, and for some reason, I was sleeping on the couch. Both my parents were sitting like they were on their knees in front of the couch talking to me. And I asked them what the F word meant. And my mom immediately goes, oh, honey, we don't say that word in this house. And for me, the same exact day, I feel like shame around sexuality. Just like the two got fused together. And so that's really the culture again, like a lot of doing what's right. A lot of intellectualism, a lot of theological, you know, heavy, heavy logic stuff. But that's kind of the culture I came up in.

So you're in this Christian environment, you are growing up in the church, all of that. Your dad's a theological Paul Bunyan and you have this experience with the F word. Are you a virgin? All of that. But your experience in church and your household continues. So when did you recognize then that. That shame or whatever had creeped into your life and become some sexual brokenness and you needed to seek some help for that?

Yeah, I mean, I remember the first time I was exposed to pornography and I remember the friend. I also won't say his name, but I remember that I'm not the same guy. Maybe same soccer team, but not the same guy. And I think that I knew that it was wrong, but it was never really talked about. So I didn't think too much about it. But I remember knowing that because for me, I would say in my story, it was less of a sex addiction and more of a love addiction because my sexual brokenness played out more in relationships. And so I think that that's when I started to really experience that there's some level of brokenness going on here because I would act out sexually with a girlfriend and then feel tons and tons of shame. And in all reality it was like a binge purge with those sexual relationships. And I can. There's a pattern through most of my relationships throughout college is that it was. We would like basically go really, really hard and heavy into sexually acting out and then like pull back. No, no, no, we can't do this. Okay? We're not gon. We're going to do better. We're going to do better. And then a couple months goes by and we go right back into it. And so I think that's when I knew something was off. And I would say it really came to a head. And this is maybe some of the things people don't know about my story. It came to a head when I just graduated from college. I was engaged to my first fiance. And I remember she was staying at my parents house. I had gone to work. And the story is super weird because I was on. I was working for a linen company. They did all this washing for these linens. And I was on this route with a guy.

Huh. Try not to laugh.

It's okay. And we were sitting, I was Sitting in the parking lot of a Jiggles, which was a strip joint, which is where this, like, this company, they serviced it. So we'd go in like. And I never went in, but this other guy I was with would go in during the day when it wasn't even open. But it's just a weird, a weird picture because I remember getting a phone call from my fiance who was at my house who called me and said, I just found porn on your computer. We're done, I'm going home, I'm going back to my parents house. And I mean, I remember the posture I was in, I remember how I felt. And that's where I knew like, this is really, really bad. And that relationship obviously did not last. But sadly the sexual brokenness continued. But that would, that was like, I'd say the pinnacle moment where I was like, something is wrong and this is not working and something needs to change.

Yeah, I think in some ways it's part of God's grace in our stories when we hit those moments, whether it's from our own conscience or maybe it's the work of the Holy Spirit in our lives, or sometimes a combination of the two. But having those moments of clarity, I'd even say where we realize there's something in my life that's not good, it's not healthy, and it gives us the desire to change. But as we all know, just having that desire doesn't mean things do change. So for you, Trevor, what were those early strategies or things that you attempted to do to get your life right or to walk in that freedom to not go back into sexually acting out things that you found were not effective in the long run.

There were a lot I could tell you that, man, Things that come to mind I would like high, high accountability, accountability software, porn blockers, those kind of things, which I was really just creating a challenge for myself that I wanted to like, figure out a way around it. I would also push accountability onto my girlfriend or fiance where I would say, like, I'm really struggling with this. I need you to hold us accountable. And so that was putting tons of weight and pressure on this other person. One semester I gave up TV and movies, like for a whole semester, which if you know me, you know, those things are so near and dear to my heart. But I. Which that may be a problem, but we'll talk about that later. But I, I did, I gave it up completely. And then I started watching TV and movies again. And the struggle still continued throughout that season. Yeah, and I mean, like a couple other Things. I tried breaking up with girlfriends, hoping that that would just. It was just the relationship that was wrong. It was just right. Like, you know, she wants to be overly sexual, or she's not strong enough, or we can't be strong enough together, whatever. And then the prototypical, like, praying, reading, doing Bible studies, you know, reading books that people wrote about purity, all of that. Those are all the ways that didn't work for me.

So you're trying all of these different things. You're cutting things out that you think are contributing. You're just. Whatever you can do to stop it. You're trying all those things. So what would you say were, like, the big hurdles, that those things were having no effect on your attempts at stopping?

Yeah, I mean, I can tell you a quick story. I would just say people's. My experience with people's reactions when I talked about it, when I talked about my struggle. That first fiance. I remember it was the weekend I went over to her house. She lived in eastern Oregon. Went over to her house, stay with her and her parents. And that was the weekend I was going to ask her dad if I can marry her. And I. It's so weird. I remember asking him and he's like, I don't really have a reason to say no. And I'm like, thanks, dad. You know, this is. You're awesome. So excited to join this family. But I remember the next day she asked me, and I didn't know at the time this was bad, but she asked me to be specific, like how I had sexually acted out with all of the other girlfriends I'd had. And so I was very, very specific on the type of acts that I'd done with other people. And it just crushed her. I remember she literally ran away. Like, she ran away. It was snowing outside, it was freezing outside in eastern Oregon. She ran away. And I remember after 20 minutes, I just got up and I went and found her and. So weird. She was in a cemetery that was like, down the road, just, like sitting on one of the headstones. And I, like, walked over and I remember she said. She said, I just want you to know I've saved myself for you. And what I heard in that moment was, you didn't do a good job. But I'm working really hard. And so just reinforce shame big time there. And so for me, that I had already grown up where there wasn't a lot of conversation and there wasn't a lot of grace or understanding about sexual brokenness, pornography, masturbation, all that stuff. But then When I have an experience like that, it's like, well, I'm damaged goods and I can never tell anyone about this again. Or I need to find someone who's okay with it or is willing to sexually act out during a relationship, et cetera. So I would say fear of rejection, for sure, because I've experienced that a number of times. Pride, for sure. That's an easy one. You're not wanting to, you know, again, growing up. Intellectual, really. We did what's right in our house. You know, my mom had all of these sayings, like, if you misuse, you lose. Like, kind, benefit, build. It's like we had these, like, rules and regulations. I just did a Harry Flanigan, in case anyone's wondering. But I think. I think that. That that was a part of it was. I. I can be better than this. I should be better than this. Yeah. And so I just don't think I ever got any help. I never walked away from experience with someone else feeling like, wow, that was really helpful how they responded. So those are the big ones for me, the hurdles.

Yeah. Well. And I think in a lot of Christian culture that we grew up in, that was kind of the remedy was, well, confess it and don't do it. And that was the help people would give, was like, okay, appreciate that you're honest now. Stop. You know, go and basically, like Jesus in John 8, go and sin no more. Okay, great. And I'll go and try. And that's what we did. And as you're saying in your story, and so many people listening could relate to it to say, yeah, I tried to sin no more, but it took a little while, and then I was sinning again. And there's not really many paradigms in the Christian church or in our faith journey that says, well, what do I do then? And so we do just. We keep trying. We keep faking it. We keep acting like things are okay. I'm curious, Trevor. I know this will get. You'll get more into this, I'm sure, later in your story, but early on then, in your marriage, you were a worship leader, a youth pastor. What was it like to be in some of those roles and still have this unresolved sexual brokenness, even though it was more from your past at that point, what was it like to live in that environment, still not able to really talk about those things?

Yeah, I mean, I became a pastor, and then within the. I think the first six months or so got into recovery, but there's still tons of shame. And you're right. I will get into it a little bit more, but it's hard because you feel like when you start to get a little bit of traction and. And you want other people to know about it, and you feel like you can't talk about it. It's really. I mean, being a pastor is isolating and puts you off on an island in so many. I know both of you experience this. Like, it can so easily become its own island where you don't feel safe with anybody. And I think in cultures and churches where it's not okay to talk about this stuff, or the responses are so negative and so heavy and hard that you don't want to talk about it, it makes it really difficult. I was also leading youth, and that is also, like, there's this pressure, being a youth pastor to have had some things figured out maybe a little bit more than your students. Like, if you just kind of air it out with your kids, like, there's gonna be like, oh, Pastor Trevor watches porn, too. Oh, okay. You know, like, that just gets really.

He slept around.

Yeah. Great. Like, yeah. So can I do what you did? You know, it's like, no. So I think those are the struggles that I had. But I would say at my church, I got really strong support from the leadership, which helped. But, yeah, it's still. It's really hard when you're the first person that kind of breaks through that wall. I feel like you get beat up really fast, and I feel like I experienced that a lot.

Yeah. So in your story, what was it like? Or when did everything finally kind of start to click into place and it wasn't just more, try harder, but things began to make sense. Talk us through how that happened.

I would like to say it was the first Pure Desire event I ever went to, but it was not. I went to an event in Tualatin, Oregon. I was there with some family. I was there with my friend. He was filming it. And it was Dr. Ted and Diane back when the PD universities. Right. Pure Desire universities were still going. And I remember listening to Ted, and he just kept using the word addict. Addiction. And, I mean, basically my emotional posture was both middle fingers. Like, yeah, not me. Screw you, dude. Like, and I sort of, like, passed it off. So I wish it was in that moment that I had had that. But I'll say. When I was a youth pastor, I had two parents come to me saying, our kids are sexting. We don't know what to do. And like any good leader, I was like, me neither. Let me go find out who does And I had family working here at Pure Desire. And so I reached out, was like, hey, what do you have for students? All this while, I have my own struggle that I'm not even bringing to the circ surface. And, like, come to this event. And I went to an event, I believe it was in Everett, Washington. It's where I met Nick and Ashley and a lot of the team for the first time. And I remember walking in and I think I was. And we talk about this so often, like, I was there for someone else, so I felt like my guard was down, you know, like, I'm not.

Like, they're not.

Yeah, exactly right.

Sexting each other.

Exactly right.

How do I help straighten out dirty.

Perverted kids who can't keep their hands themselves? You know? And so I remember, and I think it was a group from Canada was at that event. And I remember having just a conversation. You know, the family members I had there were introducing me to people they knew. And the content was really, really good. But I distinctly remember this conversation between these, like, four or five group members where they were talking about, like, the sort of things they know about each other. And they're like, really deep, dark, sketchy stuff. And they just were, like, chumming it up like they were best friends, and it was no problem. Like, they. They still loved each other. And. And I remember thinking, that's not what I've experienced before. Like, what's. You know, that's kind of a weird thing. And I would say that that's probably the softening moment, because I think that was night one, and then the next day, you know, come back. And that's when I, like, bought Conquer series. I bought all, like, seven pillars. I bought all the things. And I think even that morning, I called my lead pastor and was like, okay, I think this is stuff we need to do for our church still kind of that, like, you know, do it for other people kind of thing. But I was like, I really want to go through this. I think our church should go through it. And so me going to an event, a Pure Desire event for someone else helped me really kickstart that. And that's when it clicked, because then when I started group, you know, and you hear Dr. Ted start talking about the brain, and you hear him talking about what sexual addiction is and the nature of it, that's. That's when things just, like, took off. That's when recovery really started.

So things took off. What were those key elements that caused things to really take off and finding freedom?

Yeah, self awareness is probably the biggest one, I would say continually in recovery. For me, self awareness of the trauma and the wounds. I know we talked about that last episode, the idea that trauma is really. And trauma and wounds are really what is underneath us. Acting out. And so I didn't realize that. I just thought I had a high sex drive or just really liked girls or, you know, I'm not good enough. Shame messages, whatever. But for me, self awareness, when I was able to tie it to understanding why I do what I do, was so helpful and also being able to tie it to the lies that I believed about myself, that I believed about community, I believed about the Lord, about church, all of it. So that was the big one. And it's funny because I've had people tell me in my life that I almost have the spiritual gift of vulnerability. And it was like in everything except like this little thing. Yeah, totally. And so for me, vulnerability and honesty was another huge element. Being able to just fully share what was going on. Being able to obviously identify these lies and then share them with people, but then also be honest about my own struggle. And that's when I learned that you can lead and be broken at the same time. You don't have to have it all figured out to be a pastor or be effective or anything. And then the last one has just been. And this is kind of this pattern or this element continues today is just doing what's necessary. You know, for me, I have had seasons where I've been completely off social media because I knew I needed to do that. I've. I've stopped watching certain things or listening to certain things, but I also ended relationships that were really difficult for me. Different patterns. So I think for me it's like. And I'm that kind of way. I mean, you both know that about me. Like if I think something's right and I think it's going to work, I go after it. And. And so for me, I've seen a lot of success in figuring out what it is that I need to do, what's necessary for me to be healthy and then do that thing and that consistency, you start to see fruit over time. And so that's why I think that one still sticks around.

Follow up question. And if this is not appropriate, we can cut it. But I don't want to derail us. But anyone who knows you knows exactly what you just said. You're always pursuing new, like new ways to become more self aware. And some of the ways that I know us in the office here, your friends know that you Started practicing things like Sabbath. You journal really regularly. These are not things that are super easy for especially people who have addictive personalities. Right. How would you say so? I would say like seven pillars. Those things are like, really layer one of healing. A lot of times. How would you say those things have been like a second layer or a new layer of healing that have helped? If they have.

Yeah. I mean, there's like an illustration that many of us have probably heard the idea of like a trellis and a vine. Like, a vine is going to grow regardless of if it has any structure. But a trellis is a structure put in place for the vine to grow in the right direction, to produce the most amount of fruit or the most effective amount of fruit. And I think for me, I just, I got onto that kick on the spiritual disciplines and I thought, what's the type of person I want to be? And then through trial and error, figuring out what are practices that help me become that. You know, I've. I've heard a number of me, we've interviewed so many people on this podcast. But the idea of becoming rather than being, it's this constant movement forward. I'm either becoming more like Christ or becoming less. And so, yeah, things like that. I mean, I've tried other things, too. Like, contemplative prayer is still really hard for me. I'm a seven on the Enneagram. Slow is not something I do. But, yeah, I've just. I found some of those things, and I've stuck with it enough that I started to see some fruit. And. Yeah. And I become an evangelist for those things over time.

Well, and I think what you're recognizing in your life is what everyone needs to hear in recovery, that it's not about getting to a place that then I'm done. Like, oh, I'm recovered. That we're all recovering and as you said, becoming more and more the person God called and created us to be. And so it's a journey that doesn't end. And I appreciate in you that hunger of I want to keep growing. I want to keep improving, both for myself, but for my family and people around me. So on that note, this is such a obviously private, personal issue. It would be easy to just deal with our stuff quietly and then do our public ministry stuff. So, two questions about you opening up about your story to others. I mean, obviously now we're sitting here on a podcast, so we know you've done this. But the first question, I think people are probably wondering, your story is unique in that most of Your struggle happened before you met your wife and wasn't your story's starting place wasn't a byproduct of pain in the marriage like it is for so many of us?

Yeah.

So what did it look like for you to become more honest with your wife when it wasn't about being caught? And now you have to face it like, how did you start sharing with her? And then obviously on a more. On a bigger level, like, what gave you the courage to start opening up to people in your church, to people around you, and start living out this story more publicly?

I mean, with my wife, again, I think we were. I think I started recovery in November of 14. And so we're almost at the seven year mark, which is crazy, but I remember. So we got married in June the next year. And so there was a six month period where I had started doing it and I remembered and she probably remember better than I would, but I just, I remember saying, this is something that has been a struggle for me for a long time and I feel like it's something our church should do and I don't really know if there's anyone else to lead it. And so I'm gonna lead it. And I think what happened over time is that she just saw. And again, because my story is different. So that's why we don't have Amy sitting here next to me and having this conversation is because crisis has never been a part of our marriage in this arena, thankfully. Yeah. Praise the Lord. And I will say this, I'll admit that there are times where, and this sounds silly, but I almost wish I did have that so I could better relate. But I have to keep deconstructing that perspective because I need to be thankful that that wasn't my story. But I know that we got to the point of full disclosure. We're in pillar seven. You know, we've been going through seven pillars and I'm ready to disclose everything. I've written it out, I'm ready for it. And I asked her, I remember we're in the car, we're living in Salem at the time. And I said, we're at a parting group where I can share my whole story that I've been through enough that I'm ready. Do you want to hear it? And. And just. And if anybody knows, Amy just knows how sweet and kind she is. She just looked at me and she's like, no, like, I've seen the work you've been doing and I don't need to know. Like, I see who you are today. And I see that this stuff is working. And at times during recovery over the years, I felt like that was almost a cop out. Like, am I using it as a cop out? But I've circled back to her two other times and said, I've been thinking about this. Do you want to know? And she's still just like, no, it's okay. Like, I trust you. And so I think that that's kind of how that played out with that. And then to the second question of with other people, man, the most.

There's.

There's probably three or four moments in recovery that were just so meaningful and powerful. And one is we're going through CONQUER series for the first time. I'm leading a group of five other guys and I can't remember if it's a part of the curriculum or not at that time or if it's just something we decided to do. But we decided we give like we'd write out our first draft of our full disclosure. Just, you know, we'll go around, we'll hear our stories, get to know each other. Not everyone knew each other really well. And I remember writing it out and there was one experience I had that I was taking to my grave that if anyone, everyone says this, but if someone knew, I'd kill him. Like, there's no way I was going to tell anybody. And I remember writing it out on my full disclosure. And so I'm sitting down in group. We're at Countryside Christian Church, sitting in that front room with this really weird old U shaped table. We had just watched it on a DVD player with those really old TVs. I just remember the whole thing, but I remember I got to this point and the point was, is that I had had a same sex experience when I was 10 or 11, maybe 12, somewhere in there. I can't remember the exact time, but I had a same sex experience that I had felt the most shame. And that is like the darkest spot of my story. Even though I had messed around and broken up relationships because of pornography and all this stuff, that was the one thing. And I remember as I was getting closer and closer to that section, I'm holding a piece of paper and it's. I'm shaking. I can't. I literally cannot hold still. And I remember I get to that point and I'm like, I'm just going to do it. And so I read through it. I think I even got emotional a little bit. And I finish out my full disclosure. And as soon as I finished, two of the guys Immediately, like, leaned forward and said, me too. And I just was like, what? Like, I mean, for. At that point, I think it was 16 years, I had thought I was the only person who had this as a part of their story. And now, knowing what we know about recovery, like, there's a large percentage or a much larger percentage than we think of people who've had same sex experiences on the road to recovery or just in their brokenness and their, you know. Because for me, it was all about exploration and curiosity and all that. But I leaned forward, they leaned forward and they said, me too. And I learned in that moment that it's okay to be fully honest and that it is possible for people to respond positively. But then for me, I learned very, very quickly that those guys wouldn't have had the opportunity to say, me too, unless I went first. And that's not a hero thing. Like, I think anybody can go first. Anybody has that ability. And so I realized that it's not just powerful and meaningful and transformative for me, it's also powerful, meaningful, and transformative for other people. And so for me, that's why I continue to share my story. And I remember I told you that first event that we had, a men's Q and A, where I said, I feel like I want to share this. And I mean, you encourage me as you feel comfortable, like, you know, go ahead. But I started opening up about it, and I. To this day, it's one of the most meaningful things that people hear me say is just sharing. I had an experience like this, and people who've had the same have come to me. So it's like, I'm never gonna stop sharing my story because I feel like it just unlocks doors for people. And it's always good to remember, you know, where we've been and the journey we're on.

Yeah. Wow, that's super good. So you, you're sharing your story, and recovery is not happening in a vacuum. It's not an isolated event. It affects all the people around us both when, you know, we're in our addiction and when we're in recovery and afterwards. So how have your relationships changed and transformed as you've changed and transformed?

I mean, the first thing, we've already talked about it. I'm just. I'm so thankful that my marriage has never been in crisis because of this. I don't. Again, maybe ask Amy. I don't feel like we've ever been. Been in crisis. You know what I mean? Like, it's not just, like, I mean, well, when we had tons of school debt, we probably felt like we were in crisis. But I'm just so thankful because I realized how rare it is in recovery. And so I would say that my marriage was started off on the right foot and has been able to build. I would say in my marriage, me understanding more of why I do what I do has helped me with being open and honest. It's helped me address these like, negative patterns that I have. You know, I've got patterns of like codependency and control freak and all this. But for me, if I know I just working here and being in recovery as long as I have, I've been trained to view it so differently. It's not just these things that I suck at. It's actually things that are motivated by beliefs underneath that I need to find that I need to fix or change or bring healing to. Friendships have grown unbelievably deep to where I know. I mean, Justin's, you know, you're welcome. One of my closest friends in the whole world. And like, and it's not, it's not like my relationships before were bad or were all surface level, but just like my friends who are close to me know the core of me. They know the strings that get that are there, you know, and so I think that that's just. It's so cool when you have people who know you completely, love you completely and are also willing to share all of it with you and you can do life together. Two other areas. My kids. I know, and I probably won't see the fruit of this until maybe later, but I know that my kids lives are different because crisis didn't happen totally because dad didn't. Didn't blow up a marriage because of his addiction. But I also, like, and I've talked about this long time ago on the podcast that I grew up, my dad was Superman, and I didn't see the Clark Kent side, the problems, the issues, the emotions. I mean, I remember seeing my dad cry one time and I don't know why. He was eating tater tots and ketchup and that was the only time he was crying. It's like, what's wrong with these tater tots? But I just. Oh my.

So I.

For me, I want my kids to see that. I want my kids to know daddy's not perfect. I don't have it all together. I can't apologize. Yeah. And I would say the last one is just my relationship with myself. Like, and I know that might sound weird to some people, but I'M like a recovering self hatred person, you know what I mean? Like, I, I really don't like myself in a lot of ways, and I really hated myself for a really long time. And when you can, when you can wake up and be like, I kind of like me, you know, like, I like where I'm going, I like where I'm headed. I like some of the things that I'm practicing because I think that's the one relationship that we tend to maybe not think about in recovery is our relationship with ourself. But, man, I talk to me more than anybody else. So. Yeah, that's probably the. That's probably the biggest one that has impacted it.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, as Harry Flanagan, the table pounder, likes to say, you know, in quoting Brene Brown, you know, talk to yourself like someone that you love and that that message of practicing grace and acceptance for myself first is the only hope I think any of us have extending that to others. And when we're trapped in those patterns of shame and addiction and living kind of in those lies, or even if they're not present, if it's from our past, that secrecy just creates that layer where the person we project that others like, we see inside me. And I don't like him. And so important, I think that you brought that up and probably encouraging to a lot of people. So, Trevor, talk about the ministry and hopefully just beyond your job at Pure Desire, because we're all very thankful for you here and glad that you're on staff and a part of the message of Pure Desire. But how would you say in other ways? And you could include Pure Desire too, but how would you say that God has given you a ministry in this area? How is God using you to help others?

I mean, just because we're sitting doing it right now. Like, this podcast has been something that I think I had had, like, vision or hopes for, but I just thought I'd be talking about completely different things. Like, I thought I'd be like, preaching from stages and doing all this, like, really cool stuff and helping changing lives, whatever, and being the guy. But what I found is like one of my superpowers or one of the things I feel like God's given me a vision for in ministry is just being vulnerable, just sharing stories from my life, sharing stuff that I've learned. There's very few things I say on this podcast that I haven't personally experienced. And so I think that ministry plays out outside of work, you know, in my relationships with other people. I mean, you probably should ask Justin this question probably more because he. He probably sees it differently than I do in our. In our friendships. But I'm just able to. To go deep and be real. And I. I see that as an invitation to so many people to do the same. So I think that's one way, I think understanding unwanted behaviors, shame, brokenness, and the true way to healing gives me the ability to resonate with people in any struggle. And I've seen that time and time again to where, like, if I have someone who's a drug addict or I have someone who struggles with laziness or procrastination, like, I don't just think, you know, you're an idiot, figure it out. Like, I ask the questions, like, what happened as a kid? What's underneath all that? Like, what lies are you believing about yourself? You know, things like that. But I would just say it's given me the ability to be real. And I've always been drawn to people who are more real than they are. Meaningful, impactful, successful. And so I don't know. I think that opens up a lot of different doors.

You said earlier that you're always an evangelist for things that you love, and that's super true. Like any. I know this in my own life, anytime that something has impacted you, you're always trying to invite other people into.

That and then judging them when they don't.

And then judging them when they don't.

Dan, is that wrong?

No. But you are always inviting people, whether it's, you know, hey, I heard about this new book on parenting, and we should read it together next year. Or it's, you know, whatever it is, whatever it is that you think will be meaningful and, you know, for. In my life, and this isn't about me, but, like, I've gone through a lot of different challenges, and you've always been there and invited me into the ways that you've been able to find some traction in those areas, or if you've discovered something new, you've invited me into that as well. So I think you are definitely. You minister to all the people around you in those ways too.

And so I, I appreciate all that. I think Amy and I want to be just the safe place for people. Here's one unexpected ministry. When you work at Pure Desire, Amy gets a lot of texts from wives saying, tell me a little bit more about what Trevor does. What do they do at Pure Desire? And I have seen marriages completely transformed because of people's connection to us and the safety. Ness of being able to talk about it. And then Them getting into pure desire or getting into counseling or whatever it may be. And so it's been cool. Like, I, I think I've always thought that the things I would accomplish in ministry would be specifically in my job or in context like that. But I've also seen it. It happens, like, outside of that too. And those ones tend to be, I think, more meaningful because I don't expect them. Yeah.

So what encouragement would you give to anyone listening right now?

Get healthy before you get married, please. It's a lot better. Yeah. Step one. No, I, like the first one I wrote down is just do the deep inner work. It's so scary when you get into, like, the trauma and the wounds and the patterns and all of that. It just seems so complicated and so much difficult hard work. And it is really freaking hard. But it's life changing. Like, do the work. If you know you have trauma or wounds or you have patterns that you want to change, like, don't just assume they're going to get better. Do the work. Do what's necessary. Growing in self awareness always key. Do whatever you can. Emotional intelligence, emotional awareness. Know and be known. I mean, the group experience, we talked about it last episode about trauma. Like, trauma gets healed when you have new experiences. And that is the place. Matt, try to not like evangelize too hard and heavy on pure desire to, like our friend group, you know, in my community. But like, I. There's no better way, in my opinion, that you can get that kind of healing in that community and that transformation. Last thing I'd say is just do what's absolutely necessary to be healthy for you, for your spouse, for your kids, for your friends. Because if you get healthy, people will see it. And when they, and when you get healthy and people see it, they're going to ask you about it and you're going to see over time, the Lord's going to create this trickle down effect where you just start to see all of this change that happens. It's not always going to happen, but I just have seen it happen in my family and it comes with just being willing to do the necessary difficult work. I think that that's. That's just my biggest encouragement.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, such a good word. And you say it at the end of every podcast. Never stop being healthy. I mean, that's, that's what it's about. And I think you've lived that. Trevor, your story is one of hope and of how God has, has been at work. I think it's something a lot of people can relate to in terms of growing up in a quote unquote good Christian home and yet having some significant hidden, behind the scenes struggles that for most people, they carried a lot longer than you did. That by God's grace, you were able to address some of these things early in ministry, early in marriage, and see God use it redemptively, first as a pastor and now in your work at Pure Desire and just really appreciate you sharing your story. And I think kind of that theme of vulnerability, that that's probably not what would have marked your life in your teen years and early 20s, that that's kind of now the hallmark of what you do. And I, I think that just speaks a lot of God's transformation in your life. So thank you for being vulnerable today and sharing your story with all of our listeners.

Yeah, it's fun. Thanks, guys.

Yeah. Well, wherever you're at on your journey, Pure Desire is here to create a roadmap for your healing. If you or someone you know is impacted by sexual brokenness or betrayal trauma, go to PureDesire.org and let's start the healing journey today. Hey, don't forget to subscribe to the podcast and drop us a review. It helps others find the podcast. It really does. We appreciate you doing that. And each week we put out new content to help you on the road to healing and freedom. And lastly, never stop being healthy.