232 - Helping Friends & Family Heal

You're listening to the Pure Desire Podcast, your safe place to find hope, healing, and freedom from sexual addiction, betrayal, and relationship issues. What's up, people? I'm your host, Trevor Windsor, and you're listening to episode 232 of the Pure Desire Podcast. You're joining me, as always, is my co host, Nick Stembo.

I'm free. I'm free. Dang it.

I've got no idea. It's the voice and the fact I have no idea.

Yes, I probably would not have known either, but a faithful listener sent in the idea and reminded me of a character from one of the Disney films of the Hunchback of Notre Dame. There's this old guy who's in all these situations. He's in prison and the prison breaks free, but then a barrel falls on top of him or he breaks out of something else and he falls in a hole. And it seems like whatever he does to get free, he immediately ends up back somewhere he didn't want to be.

Oh, gosh.

Well, pretty funny if you just searched. I'm free. I'm free. Dang it. On YouTube, that video collection comes up. So if you need a little laugh today.

Yeah, you're welcome, listener. Okay, so today we had Jennifer Howey on with us. She's one of our group's experts. She's on our groups team here. And we talked about the difficult situation a lot of people find themselves in where we want to help our family and our friends who need healing.

Yeah. And it can be at times a I'm free, I'm free, dang it. Situation, because it's like, man, I'm making traction and look at the good things happening in my life. And then maybe it's our spouse who's stuck in pain or stuck in their addiction or like, dang it, like, the frustration of there's so much good happening here, but I can't control what's happening over there. And I just, I feel stuck in a new way. Or maybe it's with our kids or siblings or friends that we care about. And it's a tough situation to be in, but I think our conversation with Jen was just really good. There's a lot of insights and ideas and thoughts in here. And so if you're in this situation, we really hope it encourages you. And if you're not, I don't want to foreshadow or forecast bad in your life, but in all likelihood, all of us at some time or another are going to feel like I have some answers that could help you. But you don't seem interested in them. What do I do? Yeah, and I think today's episode just can give all of us a framework for what is my role in those situations when it's not my recovery, but I care about the person involved.

Yeah, absolutely. Well, we've got definitely a good one. As Nick has said a few things before we get to it, subscribe to the podcast, we're on all the major platforms and leave us a review. Excuse me all. Honestly, all the reviews we get are really, really encouraging and beneficial and it helps other people. When people see the reviews and they see that you enjoy the podcast, it helps them. Wanna check it out? You can also follow us on social mediauredesirepdmi. You can also search these full episodes up on YouTube and then we wann sure that you guys are aware that we do offer a free consultation for counseling. Just a few things on that. This free consultation is a 15 minute consultation with one of our clinicians that you can learn more about our counseling program. It's definitely something where you can ask questions, learn about what the program is, how long cost, all of that and then really at that point you discuss next steps. Nick, any encouragement you give people who are interested in maybe this free consultation.

Yeah, it's just that if you're asking the question, is counseling through Pure Desire the right fit for me? That's why we have the consultation. It's not how can I get 15 minutes of advice really quickly? So if you're, if you're really looking for advice and need counseling, well, call to find out if we're the right fit for you. Because what, what Pure Desire offers as a team is really a significant defined process. And that's one of the things that makes our counseling team unique is that it's not just well, come meet with us and we'll see how long it takes. It could be years. That for individuals and couples we have a very defined 12 month process and some will extend beyond that, but that we're walking you through some stages of healing that are really tried and true to be very, very effective, but are maybe not the right fit for everyone. So before we ask someone to commit to that, we really want them to have all the information. And that's the point of a consultation. And so if you've been listening and maybe wondering like man, maybe we should engage in that process, start with a consultation and see how you feel prompted to respond from there.

Yep. So to schedule a free consultation for our counseling program, you can visit PureDesire.org consultation All right, here is our time with one of our group experts, Jennifer Howey, on how to help our friends and family heal. Jennifer Howey, welcome back to the podcast.

Thanks. Trevor Winsor.

God, I don't, I don't like it. Okay, so today's episode is thanks to a guy out there named Josh Blaine, who sent in a great suggestion to Josh's question is what to do when we see friends or family who clearly need recovery and healing, but they don't see the need or are not willing to pursue it. This is a really valuable conversation and we felt like it was necessary to have an entire episode on it because we've had these conversations before. You know, I think back, you guys remember when we used to travel, right, at work, we used to go to events, the world was open, that sort of thing. And we get this question a lot. We get it from parents, we get it from friends who have friends going through crisis. And this, you know, this arena, sexual brokenness, betrayal is a part of it. So, yeah, this is really a valuable conversation. So we're definitely excited for it. So let's get after it. Jen, to start, one of the phrases that we often quote here at pure desire is you can't care more about someone's recovery than they do. While this is true, it's still extremely challenging. If you could keep your pens and arms to yourself, Nick, that'd be great.

I'm so excited.

Sorry. So why is it. Because this is really challenging. Why is it that we can't care more about someone's recovery than they do? And honestly, the question is, why can't we get in there and why can't we just fix them?

Yeah, actually it's a great question. Just recently I spoke to a woman who asked, who called and asked how she could convict her son in law so that he would see that he had an issue and that he needs pure desire. And we're smiling right now.

Oh, man. That language though. How do I convict someone?

And it might sound obvious because the in law factor there, but the reality is, if we're honest with ourselves, many of us, and I dare say all of us actually wish we could convince, explain, convict, or even inspire people to pursue healing. And while the intent or the motivation actually might be good, if healing is. Isn't pursued from a personal standpoint or if it, if the conviction ends up just, it can end up being behavior modification if we're trying to talk someone into healing. So it's not going to last, first of all. So for example, you know, I struggle with food. I struggle with my weight, and I have never lost a pound by someone telling me I needed to do something, not even my doctor. You know, I've never lost weight that way. It was the people that came alongside me and supported me and encouraged me and told me my value outside of my behavior that really helped my process. So it's only when the results of our coping actually become more painful than the coping itself that people actually end up reaching out for help. And even then, it still might take a few times for someone to, you know, start, stop through that entire process.

Totally.

Well, it's an interesting comment that you made, Trevor, that we can't care about someone's recovery more than they do, because actually we can. We can care more than they do. In fact, that may be what, as many people are listening, is causing the tension or the disconnect in their life is they do care about what they see happening in someone else's life. They can see perhaps a pathway to healing and how life could be better, but they can't necessarily do anything about it. They can't fix them or change them. And so when we say you can't care more than they do, we mean you can't do it for them. But I just. I want to acknowledge those of you listening that you do care more than they do right now. And it's hard. That's a hard place to be because you're probably grieving for them or you just know that God has better for their life. And they seem stuck and. And it's this question, like, what do I do? Because I'm seeing something they're not seeing. And I think, as in really any avenue of life, if I'm seeing something someone else is not seeing, I can speak the truth in love to them, but I can't do it for them. And especially in something like recovery, whether it's for someone who is struggling or someone who's walking through betrayal, trauma, it's a hard road, it's a messy road, it's a difficult road. And I can't walk that for you, because by its very nature, what changes us is doing that hard, messy, difficult work. And so if someone's not willing to do it, that's why you can't do it for them or fix them, because they have to walk through that challenge. So I think in our care for them and our compassion, we can pray, we can speak the truth in love, we can hope, but we have to wait for the Holy Spirit to be the one that convicts them to move towards Healing and recovery.

It's funny, I. What comes to mind on this question is I remember when people would say, like, let's say a boyfriend and girlfriend or somebody, they break up in a relationship and it's like, well, I'm gonna change so that I can come back to this relationship. We're gonna take a break so I can work on myself and come back. And oftentimes the motivation of that person getting better or healing or changing that aspect is only for getting back into that relationship. It's not for themselves. And I think that that principle also applies here where it's like, it has to be worth it enough for that individual to pursue their own healing for it to actually last or stick. But if it's just for me or someone else on the outside who just really, really cares and wants that to happen, it just won't matter. Like it's not worth it to them enough yet at that point. And I don't think it'll stick.

Yeah. And that said, it's incredibly painful to watch someone you love choose to walk a path that is obviously destructive. I mean, you might lie awake at night with worry and you might wake up with that anvil on your chest and just carry that weight in your stomach all the time. So we have to remember that our body is also keeping the score of the trauma that we're processing as we're watching someone we loved. And so there's this double edged sword here. We want someone else to get help, but we also want to realize that we're experiencing stress and trauma as well as we're waiting for our loved one to get the help that they need.

Totally. Yep, that's good.

So let's cover some of the, maybe the negative aspect of this first ways that we have heard of or seen or maybe even attempted on our own. Two, try to help or fix someone else. So Jen, what about that? What are some ways that we see people often trying to help their friends or family that really you would say are just unhelpful?

I like that we're all smiling because we all know we've done it before. We've done it, we've received it. So Nick, are you talking about like someone who leaves like a seven Pillars kit or a B and B kit under the Christmas tree as a gift? Something like that.

That would be one example.

Not the greatest gift you can give.

This season or maybe inviting someone to coffee, letting them know that you're wanting to connect, but what you're really wanting to do is point out what they're doing wrong or maybe where they need to improve. Or Dan's suggestion was helping them see the light by telling them how much they're like their mom or dad. That's always super effective. And one of my personal favorites is saying something like, I don't know how you could do this. I would never do this. Yeah.

And.

And the re. And as a betrayed spouse, this is something that I've said to him. And I. And I wasn't really intentionally trying to shame him. I was wanting him to. I was wanting him to know that I wouldn't ever do this. And I was trying to explain that I want that reciprocated. I want you to know I would never do this to you, and I don't want you to do it to me to help him understand how great my love was and what I would never do. But the reality is that's actually not helpful whatsoever. And while it may be true that that's what I'm experiencing, it can really induce shame and push someone further into isolation. So I just wanted to communicate it. I just wanted to communicate that that's the type of love I wanted reciprocated. So. But it wasn't effective.

A couple that come. Three that come to mind specifically is signing them up for stuff like, oh, hey, by the way, I signed you up for Sexual Integrity 101, or there's a purity class going on, or something.

Like that, and I made the counseling appointment for you.

Exactly right.

Exactly right.

But I think because even in our conversation, this is not just from a betrayed spouse to a struggling spouse. This is like, even parent to child, grandparent to child, friend to friend, like, anything like that. That's the first one. Offering advice is probably the worst thing you can do, honestly, in my opinion. I feel like if you just like, oh, well, here's what I would do, or here's how you solve that problem, or here's how you stop watching porn. Or, like, you just go in and you position yourself as the expert. And basically what you're saying to that person in that moment is, you're stupid. I'm smart. Let me help you. Yeah, it's like, I've never responded well to someone doing that, so how can we expect other people and then another one is sharing your own story. But there's clearly, like, an edge to it where you're using it to manipulate. Like, you know, someone is sharing something about their life, and it's like, you know, I experienced something similar once, and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, share my story. And that's why I think if you did what I did, then it's just that kind of approach. Those three, I think, honestly, they're covert in some ways. You know, it doesn't come outright like you're trying to be a jerk, but at the end of the day, I really do think that those are damaging.

It's the difference between intent and motivation. Your intent might be great, but is the motivation pure? You know, you really have to assess whether or not what side of the fence you're on.

Totally.

Yeah.

Yeah. I think it's that motivation of am I trying to. I remember a Brendan Manning phrase where he says, today I'm going to endeavor not to should on myself. That I should. I should. And I think when we do that to others, we don't like doing it to ourselves. Oh, I should be better. I should try harder. I should. And when we're coming across that way to people, you should really, you should really, you should. It just, I think our natural defensiveness goes like, well, don't tell me what to do. Don't. And especially if we're posturing, like you said, Trevor, posturing ourselves as the expert or, well, I'm really healthy now, so what about you? And it just kind of comes off as arrogant or condescending. And I think in general, people don't respond well to that because it's not in our nature to want to feel looked down on or criticized. And so that's what I'm hearing in a lot of these don't do's or the unaffective ways. It's really posturing ourselves above a person who's below us because we're better there. And that's just not, again, in any avenue of life. That's not a helpful way to engage someone in a process of change.

Right.

I'll be honest. We've done this with our kids, and my intent was to give them the knowledge and understanding of all that we've learned. And it was not received that way. It was not received that way because we weren't entering into a relationship with them. We were entering into focusing on their behavior totally wasn't effective.

So we've established that caring for someone else's recovery is okay. And it's totally fine for you to feel that way. It's normal for you to feel that way, but it's also normal that you can't do the work for them. And so let's say we want to start the conversation with somebody. What are ways we can do that without doing the work for them? Are there ways that we can start the conversation about recovery and healing with our friends and family?

Sure. Sharing your own struggle and letting them know that they're not alone. So while I might like, for example, in relationship to my husband, our struggles are different, but I can let him know that I'm struggling in other areas. So regardless if it's your spouse or a parent or a friend or your kids, you know, sharing your own struggle, being real with who you are, where you've been, without ulterior motives to fixing someone can be really powerful. And then so focusing on the person, not the behavior. Danny Silk has a great book called Keep youp Love On. And so if we can move towards keeping our love on in relationship with others, it can be incredibly effective when navigating really difficult things like addiction and learning how to love each other. Well, while healing is important, and then we don't want to minimize what we're experiencing, so we want to communicate the direction we're wanting the relationship to go. I saw the question ahead of time, and I'm like, oh, gosh, there's so many different things, because whether it's a parent, a child, or a spouse, a sibling, you know, there's. We don't want. We don't want the person that's been betrayed. We're not asking them to be quiet or be small, but to communicate. Where do I. I care about this relationship? What direction am I wanting it to go? You know? And now that we have some healing under our belt, Dan and I actually started a conversation with something like, when you have a moment, I want to share a narrative that's in my head, or, hey, it feels risky for me, but I want you to know, fill in the blank. So those are some of the things that we personally have applied into our marriage that have been really helpful. But the point is to share information about yourself. Don't share information about the other person. They get to share that information to you. Because assumptions and conclusions about each other, they nearly have destroyed our relationship. And even to this day, when assumptions are made about each other in our relationship, our relationship is really off.

I think one of the things that's interesting with that is what you're doing is you're disarming before you get into a situation that could potentially blow up. Because the thing that comes to mind for me is asking questions. And I think one of the things you can do to disarm is ask the question beforehand. It's interesting. As you were sharing, I made a connection with a narrative that I have Would it be okay if I shared that? And that might seem weird in a conversation, but what that does is that gives the other person power or some. That gives them the decision on whether you're going to share or not. Because if they say no, it's like, okay, cool, let's just continue on with the conversation. But if they say yes, they've already disarmed that situation to an extent where you can share that. And again, I would say, as you're sharing that narrative, make sure it's not with an intent to manipulate or, you know, you're not bait and switching them at the end, that this is actually about you. But I think that you can ask that disarming question at the. At the outset.

Yeah, I was going to call that asking permission, just like we talk about in group, to say, would it. Would it be okay with you if I shared something I'm observing or something I've noticed and maybe following it up with, do you trust my love for you? Do you trust our relationship enough that I could share maybe something hard or difficult? And a person may say, I know. I don't know that I do trust. Especially if we are the struggling spouse or the spouse who's been addicted and we're finding healing because this happens so often, we start to feel good about where we're at. And then there's kind of a human nature where we turn the corner and look at our spouse like, well, how come you're not keeping up? And you still seem bitter and angry. And so it's like, I'd like to share something with you. Where meanwhile, in. In a very appropriate way, our spouse is still stuck in a place of saying, no, I don't trust you. I don't respect your advice. You've been hurting me. Or I just found out about all the ways you've been lying to me. No, I'm not able to receive that from you. And if. If that's where somebody's out, it's like, we need to receive that. But in a lot of. As you guys brought up, like, family situations, friend to friend, I think most people are gonna say, yeah, I'd like to know. And then for me, the second thing would be to really make it about just what you're observing, to say, I could be wrong or I may be missing something, but here's what I'm seeing. Like, I'm seeing a real issue in your marriage. And I'm noticing you keep sharing with me about your struggles with porn. And it seems like there's a major Trust issue with you and your wife that's really deteriorating. So I'm just sharing observations to say maybe you haven't seen it as clearly as it's coming across to some of us. And then the final thing I'd say in sharing observations is also to share kind of that we've talked about, the aspirational identity or the positive side of. Here's what I see in you. I see in you this future, these gifts God's given you, this blessing your family could be, or your marriage. And here's something I'm observing that I think is really keeping you from that, but keeping the perspective on what you believe God has for them or where God wants to take them, not getting stuck on, well, here's all the problems I see, and I really hope you'll fix them now that I've pointed them out to you. But more, here's the future I see for you, here's the blessings. And I think the pathway to get there is facing some things that are going on.

That's good. Really good.

Am I up? I must have the next question. Everybody's looking at me. So, Jen, is there anything we can do to help people? People, as we've talked about a lot of things and starting conversations, what are some things that might help kickstart our family or friends or even spouses? Healing and recovery?

Kickstarting? You mean like a boot on the back?

No, maybe.

Many of us have had that.

Well, and so here's. Yeah. And so while we actually don't recommend that, sometimes pain is a powerful, you know, motivator, but it's really about boundaries. Right. So boundaries determine the direction that we go. So when I say a boot on the back, I kind of, I say that lightly. What I really mean is this is something I'm no longer going to want in my life or tolerate in my life. So a boundary that is set will determine the direction that the relationship goes. So whether it's a spouse, a sibling, a parent, boundaries can be strong motivators as well. And remember that boundaries are meant to keep love in and keep a relationship going in a healthy direction. And when something unhealthy has been revealed, it is a powerful, effective, and healthy way to kickstart healing and recovery.

Yeah. I'm hearing Rosie McKinney's episode with us on the podcast, and if you're a betrayed spouse and haven't picked up that episode, really, really encourage you, I encourage you to go back and listen to it. Because in that episode she says, boundaries are your secret power.

Ye.

That if you are walking in that betrayal, that lack of trust, to say to your spouse because you're making these choices to look at porn, to flirt with other people, you know, whatever's going on, I don't feel safe or I don't feel that there's trust between us. I'm not able to engage in physical intimacy. There may even be issues that say I'm not able or willing to sleep in the same bedroom with you because I don't trust what's going on. And it's not that I'm trying to be vindictive or vengeful, but. But I'm not feeling safe. And so I need to do these things. And just like you said, Jen, a lot of people have ended up in recovery because they're like, well, my spouse is serious. Like, they don't want to be with me if I'm going to keep doing porn. So I guess I got to address it. And you talked about this, Trevor, that that's maybe a bad motivator in one sense. But on the other hand, you're right. If someone's only doing it just to make their anger go away, which is where I was stuck for 10 years of just trying to make her happy.

But.

But when I started group, it was like, well, I don't wanna lose my marriage, so I'm doing this for my wife. But a couple of months in, it really started to transform into. My eyes were open, the denial and the fog was breaking free. And it's like, I see how much I need this. And so it is okay initially, if what's motivating your spouse is, I need to heal this relationship now. If they're just doing it to make you happy and then they give up, it's like, well, that's, you know, we wanna keep the focus on real transformation, real change is the goal. But if someone is doing it because they value the relationship enough to say, I don't want to lose you. And if being able to share a bedroom with you means that I stop my porn habit and they start pursuing it, that's appropriate that you've established that boundary. So again, I loved that episode with Rosie and I feel like you're echoing some things she said, Jen. And we could just go on that topic for a long time, which we did with Rosie. So I'll stop now, I think.

And I know that we're getting into the betrayed spouse side in this, which is totally fine for me. Thinking about how to do this with friends and with family who are in our Life asking. And I'm not going to say pointed, meaning manipulative, but pointed questions. Like, if you hear someone saying something about, you know, they're sharing a little bit of a perspective that they learned, like, I just feel like I can't really be myself around my spouse or with other people. Asking specific questions can be really helpful in that moment where you maybe you sit back and say, like, did you pick that up from your family? Where did you learn that perspective growing up? And you just leave space for it. If they breeze by the question, that's fine. But I'm trying to think of different ways I've heard this described, like motivational interviewing a little bit, leading questions a little bit. But as you're making connections, what we want is self discovery. And we talk about that in group all the time. We can't discover or make the connections for other people because it won't be as meaningful or powerful. We want people to find that on their own. And so I viewed it this way a lot for a long time, where we're almost like the bumper lanes or the bumpers on the bowling lane, where it's just those soft, gentle questions or touches that we're giving to help redirect that person. But they have to make that change. Like, we can't force them to do it, but we can help them do that. If we ask questions that are specific and are helpful with helping them make those connections.

Validation can go a long way in that just validating whether or not you agree with someone's coping mechanisms or even their attitude towards their coping mechanisms, validating the person and what they're experiencing. I can see, I can see that that's bothering you. And if there's a way I can support you in that, let me know. Or I've got some resources. When you're ready for them, just let me know. You know, I have a friend that I've walked through a long, long process with, and that's the dance that we take. We go back and forth with it, and it's a beautiful, easy friendship.

And.

And sometimes the results are successful, sometimes they're not. But you just leaving that communication open of you can come here and be who you are in this moment and there's not going to be any judgment. So just let me know when you're ready to walk that road. I'll totally walk that out with you, no matter what it looks like.

Well, and how many times have we heard the story of people who say we were in crisis, we were in pain, and we just didn't even know where to turn. I mean, there's some of our stories in this room. It's like, I would have got help years earlier if I knew it existed. Other than reading a book or maybe finding a counselor, I didn't know what else to do. And so that may also be a way we can kickstart. Someone's healing is just sharing in openness and humility. Like, did you know there's groups that meet around this and can be incredibly healing. Did you know there's ministries that help people in this area? There's counselors that this is their area of specialty. And that person who is stuck or the marriage that is in crisis, there may be a lack of awareness where they go o and we. We may assume. Well, I'm sure everybody's sort of pure desire. It's what's at our church. I'm sure they've heard about it because it got announced six months ago. But maybe that couple wasn't in church that weekend and doesn't happen to be in that circle of friends that are in those groups. And they may not even be aware there's options. And so I think that's one thing. Like you say, Jen, there's resources available, there's groups available, and here's how you can find them. And when you're ready at your decision point, they're there for you. But just that awareness, I think could help some people.

I like that the. Did you know, rather than have you tried starting any.

Or you should, you should.

Or have you tried? Usually will cut someone off, but did you know that this is available?

Great.

I had a pastor who did this really, really well at our local church here who would pose these statements as if, like, he would say, I'm sure you're already aware of this, but just something that's coming to mind. And then he would share it and be like, you think I'm smart, Alan, thank you. Thank you for thinking. You know what I mean? Like, that's how you feel. So you're much more receptive.

Good job, Alan.

Nick, as you were. Yeah, we love you, Alan, as you were sharing. Nick, something that came to mind too is that someone might have so much shame that they just. They don't even know what to do with it. They don't even, like, maybe it was announced last week at church, but they are so deep in this dark shame that they didn't even receive it. They didn't even realize hope was available. And so we talked about already that sharing our story can be so Helpful. Sharing our story can diminish that shame. If we start to talk about this, even just in conversation about our recovery or our healing, that what that can do is that can normalize the conversation and maybe lift that person's head a little bit to see like, oh, okay, it is okay to admit I have a problem. It's okay to talk about this. It's okay to get recovery and healing. And so just being aware that especially someone who is stuck in betrayal, trauma because their spouse is an addiction, or someone who is addicted to porn, sex, masturbation, there is tons of shame in both of those scenarios. Tons and tons of shame. And so we need to be aware of that as we go in and realize that that might be why they're not talking about it or why they're not pursuing it is because they're so stuck, right.

And they feel an enormous amount of pressure in themselves. So adding additional pressure can be harmful. So being that release valve for people totally can be really important.

So one of the situations that can come up, especially in this arena, is that we find family members who are in crisis. Their marriage is in crisis, their relationships are in crisis. And honestly, we know that healing and recovery would save their life. It would save their marriage. We think about their kids like, oh my gosh, you're going to save your kids lives if you just work on this. What do we do in that situation if we can't get in and fix stuff for them? What can we do when we have friends and family who are in crisis?

Yeah, honestly, it depends. Do they want. My question is, do they even want you there? There are some people that I wanted and some people that I didn't. And making assumptions that you're on the list of people that are wanted in this crisis can be presumptuous.

Why didn't you call me? I thought that we were friends.

Well, because you just asked me that question. You're not safe. Yeah, exactly. So I'll often ask in a situation like that, do you want my input and permission again? Permission? Yeah. Do you want my permission? Do you want my input? Do you want any feedback? If there's a long pause, you may have your answer. But even when there's a long pause, giving someone the space to figure out what they want from you is really important. So if the answer is yes, then I'll, I'll start with open ended questions that hopefully lead to a conclusion that a healing process is going to be beneficial to them. And like we said before, you know, pain is that powerful motivator but the pain has to be great enough for that person to move toward change. So again, I keep thinking, I keep going back to this. How do we manage ourselves when others are in crisis? Because I need to learn how to be okay when my friends and family are in crisis and I can't fix what they're doing. So that whole serenity prayer, lord, grant me to accept the things I cannot change, to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference. Because with all of these questions, right.

Now.

I'm hearing that this person is experiencing the crisis of their own as they're watching someone else go through something. So our ability to show up well for others is dependent on our ability to show up well for ourselves in our own healing process.

Process. Very good.

Yeah. As you asked the question, Trevor, what came to mind for me was, how strong is the relationship bridge? Because the stronger the bridge, the more weight it can bear. And so if my brother were to call me and say, hey, I'm thinking of divorcing my wife, the weight that that relationship can bear because of our strong bond through life is pretty significant. And I'm going to speak some pretty direct words.

No, you're not.

I'm going to get involved in a way that, that I think the relationship merits versus if a casual acquaintance from 20 years ago happens to mention they're thinking of divorce, I've got to approach that more carefully because I don't know how much weight this bridge can carry. But then with that, I also was thinking about, I think the level of crisis does in some ways dictate the level of response. So, for example, if someone were to say, in my life, I'm kind of feeling down today, I don't rush them to the ER to get on suicide. I just ask, what's going on? How can I pray for you and how can I support you? And if they reveal there's more, obviously I could get more involved. But on the other hand, if I walk by and see a friend on the edge of a building, I'm going to do whatever is in my power to help save them. And so I think that's some of it too. If someone's at a place in their relationship, like, yeah, I've been looking at porn and my wife doesn't know. If you go all in and try to engage, you're over responding versus if you do have someone that you care about who's saying, yeah, I've been kicked out, she's filing papers, it's like their marriage may end anyway. Speak the hard words, you know, be more directive, like get engaged and do it in a way that the continues relationship. I mean, I think that's a mistake people make is like, and if you don't do that, you know, we're not friends anymore or don't call me again, or parents that will like to kids be like, well, if you're not willing to face this, don't come here and be like, that's only gonna make it worse. But if you can say in the midst of that, like, this matters and I will do whatever I can to help. And it still needs to be their call. But I just think the more serious the crisis is becoming, we have that willingness to say, I will do whatever it takes. Not again, not to over function or try to fix them. But if we're hearing that level of crisis, we jump in.

Yeah, I think, and I'm thinking specifically for like a parent and a child relationship, but I think this could be applied to any other friend or family relationship we have. But do what you can to position yourself to when that person does reach bottom, that you're going to be a safe place that they can go. And that is how we approach that. Whether we under, respond, over respond the type of questions. Do we give advice? Do we not give advice? And I've had, I remember one event, Justin and I went and spoke at a youth event, and I had two parents, a mom and a dad come to me and say that our daughter's living with her boyfriend, they're sleeping around, they're watching porn together. We don't know what to do. And I mean, it's heartbreaking. I like, I'm like, at that point, I'm like, I'm like 30 years old. My kids are like 2. Like, what? I don't, I don't know. But what came to mind was this. Just what can you do to position yourself to. When she realizes, when she comes to her senses and understands how damaging this has been or how wrong that she's been living, are you creating a place where she can come when she hits that point? And if you, and if you are, then you're doing the right thing, because that is when you want, like, as hard as rock bottom is, that's exactly where you want to be when that friend or that family member hits rock bottom. You want to be the person they come to because your words are going to matter at that moment. And so I just think anything we.

Can do to position ourselves, My friend Chris did that for me years and years and years ago. She Told me, she said, jen, this is gonna blow up in your face and it will, trust me. But I want you to know I'm gonna be there when it does. And so she spoke the hard truth to me and then she'd let me know that she was there. And hey guys, turns out it blew up in my face and Chris was there for me when it did. And because she put that out there, created that safe space, told me the hard truth, I knew that I could go there when I needed to.

You know what's interesting about that too is it's not a one time decision. You don't just decide, I'm positioning myself right at this moment to be there when you need me. At your lowest moment, it's a daily thing because you're going to wake up on like a Tuesday and be like, I'm pissed at that person. Why will they not just get healthy? Why won't we've talked about this? They've seen it in my life. You're going to be angry one day and then the next day you're going to wake up and be like, I was a jerk to them yesterday. I need to call them, I need to talk to like. It's a daily decision to posture and position yourself as a safe person. It's not just, okay, I made this decision, I will be safe for you because there's going to be ups and downs in relationship and that person's story. So I think just an encouragement, it's something you're going to have to work at consistently to actually be that safe person.

Agreed.

Yeah. Well, you guys are kind of answering this question ahead, but let's jump into the next question. So watching our loved ones make unhealthy decisions can be very difficult. So how do we maintain our own health around family and friends who won't, won't pursue their recovery? So maybe we have made the attempts, we've said our peace, we've shared our story, we've offered the resources and they're still. That's the hard thing is at the end of the day, people are going to do whatever they want to do regardless of what we've said. So as we've maybe done our part, how do we stay healthy as we watch them continue to make their own choices?

Oh man. I have struggled so greatly in this area, talking about yesterday every day, every day. I've had so much fear of the unknown and I've had to address those fears. And to do that, I had to figure out what's the narrative in my head. Right now. And usually it was going to worst case scenario. I shared this with you a couple weeks ago. My head just goes to worst case scenario because I'm really trying to, to circumvent any pain that I might have from what might come my way. So there are a ton of double binds that I wrestle with in those narratives. But personally, the three circles exercises are huge for helping me focus on areas of health in my own life. And I found as I, as I did that my mental health became more of a healthy, you know, kind of went more into that healthy realm, which helped my thinking when I was going to bed at night. I think it's okay to acknowledge that hope and trusting aren't easy things to do. And I don't. Please know my heart when I say this. I don't mean to spiritually bypass anything, but pray. And I sincerely, I sincerely mean that. I mean, when we need a God that, that sees a big, bigger picture for them as well as us. And if our peace is subject to someone else's recovery or their circumstances, our joy is going to be as well.

That's good.

Yeah, I get this. It's, it's really difficult.

Yeah, yeah.

There is a deep spiritual principle there that says, I, I can be well, even if you're not. And if you know, whether it's your kids or your spouse of understanding that who I am in Christ and who God's made me to, my value, worth and identity are not based in someone else or in any relationship. And even though it can be really, really painful if someone doesn't choose recovery or a relationship doesn't work, it doesn't change our value, worth and identity. And so it is being around people, being around environments, being around teaching, and just people pouring into us that remind us of that, that who we are is secure no matter what happens around us. The other thing I was thinking about with this question too is if we're talking about a marriage and it's the betrayed spouse who's watching this happen, I do think you have to clarify both for yourself and your struggling spouse. What are your non negotiables? And again, I think Rosie McKinney talked about this, that making empty threats, well, if you don't do this, I'm out of here. And if you don't really mean it, the addict, the struggling spouse has picked up on that and it's like, yeah, she blows up, we move on. We just keep going. But if you really have determined, if this behavior continues, I will need to move out or you will need to move out or this will need to happen. And you're firm on that. That kind of is your safety net, so to speak. That because I know I'm going to be okay and my value, worth and identity aren't in this relationship, I'm determining what am I not willing to abide with or live under now. And that can be different, spouse to spouse, that some have had to live with an addict, someone struggling with pornography for a long time, but they've figured out ways within the marriage to create healthy boundaries and kind of deal with it. But others have just said, no, that's not something. So where your convictions land and what you can handle may be different than the next person. But I think the important thing is just that you've got to know the answer to that question and be able to communicate it so that you know what steps you would take. And. And if someone were to continue to make harmful choices, your willingness to say out of a place of self security and knowing who you are in Christ, say, I'm not going to live with that is okay to do.

Yes, it is.

We talk about this all the time in, like all of our events on all the podcasts, that the greatest gift we can give to someone else is our own health, because that's going to be the most convincing element to the work of recovery and healing. And honestly, I'll just say it this way, that you need to continue working on yourself because that's the biggest project you have in life, is working on yourself. And there's an interesting. Here's a connection I'm making. Even right now, it's easier for me to work on you than it is to work on me. And so oftentimes in my own recovery, I'll focus on other people and their lives because I'm at a difficult place or I'm stuck in something and I don't want to spend the mental energy or really put in the work for that. And so I don't want to say that it's one or the other. There is absolute care that we have for people, but oftentimes we can use caring for someone else to numb out on our own stuff. If I'm just struggling with something, yes, and amen. But just know that we still need to work on ourselves. Like that is the most valuable thing you can do is continue to grow in your relationship with the Lord, grow in your relationship with yourself, grow in your relationship with other people. And Jen, something you mentioned with the three circles, what's great is that if we want to Stay healthy. And we talk about this a lot too, Nick. We talk about this a lot too. That, Sorry, Nick makes fun of me for doing that. So if you're not watching, you have no idea what I'm doing.

I'm not even sure what he's doing.

It's okay. Yeah, that's fine. I do the knobs on the microphone. But the great thing about the outer circle in the three circles exercise is we're not just focusing now on what not to do. We're focusing on what we should do or, or things that are most beneficial for us. So it's the yeses in our life. I've heard you say that before, Nick, that so much in recovery is not just focusing on the no's, the things we shouldn't do, but also pursuing the yeses, the things we can do. And that will bring benefit. And so that's what's great, is you have to find things that are beneficial for you, for you to say yes to in order to stay healthy. Because this is a really stressful season and situation to be in.

Yeah. If my health is dependent on your health, we call that codependency. And that's not healthy. My health can be said that.

He said, yeah.

And codependency is a major part of relationships. And that's not to put blame on one person or another, but just it's kind of human nature. When we're close to people, we start to identify with the relationship maybe even more strongly than ourselves. And so that may be just what I was feeling prompted to say is like, this could actually be that opportunity for your growth to realize, oh, I've been defining myself through my relationships, my marriage, my kids. I mean, that's such a major thing for parents. Like, yes, my kids are a reflection of my value as a parent. And I think we all feel that to some degree, but it's simply not true. And if we can see that in this crisis, like, oh, wow, my well being is dependent on my kids choices, that's not healthy. I can work on that. I can go to a counselor, I can join a support group, I can find others and I can move towards healing, which could be God's gift in my life.

So I had no idea that I was also in recovery, my husband's in recovery. I had no idea that I was in recovery and needed these yeses in my life and boundaries in my life. Because I don't. Yeah, I just really appreciate that, Nick. Thank you.

So, I mean, so far through the conversation, I feel like we've made it very clear that there's not a lot that we can do to actually do the work for people, but we can work on ourselves and position ourselves in ways to be helpful and encourage them. These family members, maybe it's our spouse, maybe it's friends in our lives to pursue recovery and healing. So what? Just final encouragement. Thinking about the whole conversation we've had, someone's listening, and maybe our conversations have been helpful, but it hasn't solved their situation. Right. Like, what encouragement would you give to that listener who's in this situation that they have someone so close to them in life that is so deeply struggling and is in crisis?

Yeah. I doubt this podcast has resolved anything because the reality is that we wish it could. Yeah. But it could certainly set us on a path that. Towards healing. Because I think what we've learned here today is that I am also in recovery while I'm watching someone else. And to be either be in recovery or the need for recovery. But I think I'd say don't underestimate God's creativity. While we know just what someone needs, God actually knows the details of what they need more so than we do. And he cares so much more than we even care about that person. And if that person goes further into their coping than what our hearts can handle, we have to remember that God can redeem anything. I've watched it. I've watched it my own life, in my own marriage, in the lives of hundreds of other people. God can redeem anything. He can redeem a heart, a circumstance, a relationship. God is. He's always up to something. And we must not forget that. We cannot forget that. God is always moving. He's always working. He's working on our behalf. He's always loving abundantly. He's always pursuing, pursuing us relentlessly. And he's always fighting passionately for the same outcome that we're actually hoping for as well.

So we're joining him in his work. It's not the other way around.

Yes. Yeah. Yeah. It can be really scary. There was. Okay, there was a time that I was in Uganda and we were experiencing people being delivered, and it was a scary time for our group of people because we hadn't experienced anything like that. And one of the Ugandans had come up to us and said, you really need to get your people together. And I'm like, well, this is scary. And they're like, oh, no, no, no, no, you're wrong. It's not scary. You're focusing on the evil that's taking place. What you're not focusing on is the God that is actually removing evil from someone. And so really, if you shift your eyes towards God, you'll look at the miraculous thing that is taking place. So while circumstances can be seen scary, evil can be scary. We have to remember we have a God that is in the business of removing that and can be that that shift in mindset can change the perspective of everything that's taking place. At least it did for me.

Yeah.

Yeah. There's a voice of an ancient Christian writer who's known for saying, faith is believing that all will be well and all manner of things will be well. And that's not to offer, like, false hope or just like it's going to be okay.

Yes.

But really from the lens of eternity. And like you were saying, Jen, a God who redeems and restores and who is constantly at work for good in the world and invites us into eternity with him from that perspective, believing all will be well, even perhaps if what happens right now isn't going well or that relationship isn't going well, an invitation to faith through Christ that says all will be well. And if I can kind of hold on to that, then I can weather whatever I'm going through. And so that would be, maybe my final encouragement to listeners is if you're in the midst of that crisis of I care more than they do and they don't seem to see it, and I'm at the end of my wit and I don't know what to do, it's sometimes taking that deep breath, taking a little step back from the situation and from the lens of eternity, trying to see what is God our Father up to and how could this be used? And even if we don't see it all, even that little bit of healthy space from the situation can give us a renewed perspective how to pray, how to approach it, and how to continue staying focused on our own health and recovery.

Yeah, I've already said it. We've talked about it a little bit already in the episode, but just a new way maybe, of saying it, that my final encouragement would just be take responsibility for what you're responsible for. And you're not responsible for this person's recovery. You're not responsible for how they respond and react. You're not responsible for their relationships, maybe their marriage, their relationship with their kids. And I think that, you know, they're responsible and God is. God's got it, as you already said. But I think that that's just. I think in this moment, it feels paralyzing. Because there's nothing I can do. You can do something. You can work on yourself and you can continue pouring into this relationship, pouring into your other relationships, pouring into your relationship with the Lord. So take responsibility for what you're responsible for. All this conversation might. And I know we've joked about it a little bit even throughout, and we've smiled kind of our way through this conversation just because we've heard this question and we've been in the situation so many times, but this is really, really difficult. This is such a hard season to be in for so many people. And it's because we have these answers. We know it's almost like we're in class, and we know that all the answers to the test, we just want to give them to everybody. Like, let's just have everybody pass the exam. But, you know, people just say no.

They don't want holding our hand up. Right.

I got it. I got it. Cool. You just. Exactly right. Exactly right.

Someone else needs to answer this.

Right?

Come on.

And it's hard because we see the powerlessness, we see the hopelessness that so many people are in, but we need to just trust that God can and will use our story, can and will use the work that we've done on ourselves. And so that's our encouragement just as we end is just, we want you to keep working on yourself. Trust that God's going to use that in your life and the lives of people around you, and trust that he's got it. As Jen put it beautifully, God has it. He is in control. And there are things we can do. We don't have to just sit on our hands and pray that just gets better. We can pray that it will get better, but we can also continue working on ourselves and just be there for these people. So we hope our conversation was encouraging to you and it definitely is encouraging for us. It's a great reminder. Jen, thanks for being with us today and sharing.

Thanks for having me.

And wherever you're at on your journey, Pure Desire is here to help create a roadmap for your healing. If you or someone you know is impacted by sexual brokenness or betrayal trauma, go to PureDesire.org and let's start the healing journey today. Don't forget to subscribe to the podcast and drop us a review. It helps others find the podcast. Each week we put out new content to help you on the road to healing and freedom. And lastly, never stop being healthy.