235 - Stages of Recovery

You're listening to the Pure Desire Podcast, your safe place to find hope, healing, and freedom from sexual addiction, betrayal, and relationship issues. Hello.

Hello.

I'm your host, Trevor Windsor, and you're listening to episode 235 of the Pure Desire podcast. You're joining me, as always, is my co host, Nick Stumbo.

Practice. We talking about practice?

Okay, truthfully, so in my top two basketball players of all time, it goes Michael Jordan and then Allen Iverson. Honestly, Allen Iverson might be like 1B to Jordan's 1A, but that is Allen Iverson at a press conference talking about practice.

Yeah. Yeah, you nailed it. He was a gritty and gutty short guy. That man could shoot and play and take his body into the lane and get. Get knocked around by guys a foot taller. And yeah, I think everyone who's a basketball fan, whether you were a fan of his team or not, respected the way he played the game, but was not fond of practice and was known to have missed some of his team's practices.

Seriously. It was also the only season of life where I ever liked Reebok shoes. I don't like them anymore. Also, just because I feel like I'm a fan, I need to say, if you just YouTube and Allen Iverson crossover on Michael Jordan, it'll blow your mind. Okay, so I'm interested to see how you tie it in, because today we had a clinician, one of our speakers as well, Robert Vandermeer, on to talk about the stages of recovery.

Yeah, and in the stages of recovery, it's not all fun and games. You know, it's not all the big time showtime. Get to the good stuff. And that's kind of what Allen Iverson was making the point about. He's like, you know, I just show up for the games. I'll be there when it matters. When the lights and cameras are on, quit worrying about the hard stuff of practice. And I think that's some of our human nature, especially in recovery. It's like hard things, pain. Like, when can we just get to the good stuff? And so we may feel some of that same attitude. And we just wanted to talk through the stages, what they look like, what we might expect, and really to give hope of the process that many of our listeners are in as they work through these stages of recovery.

Yeah, and it was cool. I feel like I learned some stuff too, in this episode that I'm excited for people to hear a few things before we get to it. Subscribe to the podcast on all the major platforms and leave us a Review it helps other people find the podcast. And honestly we've been doing this for over four and a half years now. We would love to hear what you have enjoyed about it and yeah, just share it with your friends. We really appreciate that. Also, you can follow us on social mediauredesirepdmi and you can search the. We've got full episodes up on YouTube. Just search Pure Desire Ministries. As we start the new year, we Nick, we are now in 2022. I feel like we need to have like uplifting music, you know what I mean? Like an angelic choir behind me. Justin put it in in post. But as we get into this new year, talking about health and talking about stages of recovery, we wanted to remind people that we have an eight week video course called Sexual Integrity 101.

We sure do. That's gonna be my new thing is just make a three word comment on your promo material. Yeah, it's kind of like, you know when you've been looking for a new movie and you're on net and you're going through and then the top 10, you're like, wait, what's I haven't heard of this new movie. And you look in the date, it's like been out a couple years and you feel like, well, where have I been? How'd I miss this Looks great. And maybe for some of our listeners that's how you're going to feel about Sexual Integrity 101, because we've had it out now for a year and a half. But maybe you haven't had a chance to walk through what really is kind of some foundational teaching of what is addiction? How does it relate to scripture? How do we recognize the healing process? How can we help others? What does it look like to have meaningful life changing groups? I mean, just all of that gets covered in a foundational way that whether you are a struggler or a spouse or just a leader that wants to help a parent that wants to understand your teens more, this is a series you should walk through and maybe you're, you know, getting traction in your own recovery and you've just had your head down on the group you're in or your counseling. And now you could start to think a little more holistically about this whole area of our world and how to help people. I think going through sexual integrity 101 would just be the ideal place to, to build that into your own life and then start asking the question, God, how might you want me to use this to help others as well?

Absolutely. All right, so if you want to get Sexual Integrity 101. We have digital access. We have DVDs. We also offer site licenses as well. So just go to PureDesire.org101. All right, here is our time with Robert Vandermeer on the stages of recovery. Bob, welcome back to the podcast. Hey, thanks.

Appreciate it.

We like having you back, but we're also excited. Happy New Year. Because at the release of this episode, it is the first episode of 2022 Fresh Start.

Wow. A fresh start indeed. Yeah.

Honestly, I want to start the year with Bob Vanderberg, honestly, to be honest. So I'm really excited.

Let's start it together, please.

Let's do it.

Please. Let me start it with the two of you.

So.

And the rest of you at home.

Yes. Right. We've had a number of listeners who have sent in questions about stages of recovery. You know, and I think for a lot of people, they're looking for a map or they're looking for, like, what does the process look like? Kind of give me that 30,000 view. And so, as a clinician, you do this. You walk people through these stages, both individually and with couples. So we wanted to give an introduction episode to these stages of recovery, but then also promise that we will do a series later, unpacking each of these stages more in depth. Because, as you guys know, in recovery, you can say a sentence about a stage that may take years to get through, you know, and so we want to give enough time at a future date. So let's just get into it here. So what. What are the stages of recovery? How many of them are there and what are they?

Yeah, and I think we're talking about today is are the emotional stages of recovery, specifically. And so Dr. Patrick Carnes delineated early in his work these five emotional stages of recovery, and they're the crisis decision stage. And that's basically when someone has felt enough discomfort, either by something hitting the fan or by just, like, their internal affect saying, man, this is so uncomfortable. The dissonance between how I want to live and how I'm living. Right? So there's something that has forced them into this crisis where they make the decision to at the very least ask for help, Right? They at least this crisis kind of denial to say, like, they're at least asking for help. There's enough of that. And then the next one after that is shock. And in that shock stage, basically, they're coming to terms with the devastation, the negative consequences, Right? That's the language we use. So they're They're. They're having to face the negative consequences of their addiction. But not just like, I did this behavior and it hurts someone, but also the emotional numbness, like the lack of presence, the disconnection from family, maybe ministry, you know, the, like not getting promotions at work because they were barely even there mentally. You know, things like that. So being shocked at that and then grief is the third. And now just having to grieve through what was lost. Right, right. We can't get that time back or we can't get those relationships back or those missed opportunities back. And then after grieving through that and as well as, like, how they hurt maybe their betrayed spouse. Yeah, right. Or how they now don't have relationship with their kids, or now maybe they're in prison. Right. You know, they have to grieve through what that reality is. Then there's a repair stage where they're trying to repair all of those things. And then growth. Right. So we want to get to growth, and that's the fifth stage. So crisis, decision, shock, grief, repair and growth. Got it.

Yeah. And I think what's helpful about what Bob is describing is just for all of us to be aware there. There are some stages. There is some pattern or predictability to what a person moves through. And it's. As we're going to go on, it's not always clean or straightforward. It's not steps, you know, do step one, and now I'm done with step one. It's not that, but. But just to know there is kind of a pattern that I can look to in my own life. And the other thing I was going to say about it, these stages apply at an individual level, but also apply at a coupleship level. And the two processes don't necessarily correspond directly. For some people, they will. I mean, if. If the crisis or decision moment for the individual also is a crisis and decision moment for the couple, they may in some ways walk through this pattern together. The individual addict going through the stages and the couple. But we've seen a lot of stories too, where an addict goes through a whole lot of the cycle before he gets to that place of disclosure and then comes to the spouse. And it can almost, I think, for that person, feel a little bit like a restart. And it is because they've walked through some stages individually, but. But now they're going through that same emotional process as a couple. So as you, the listener, think about these, just keep in mind, you may be in kind of two different stages as an individual or as a couple, because they're they don't necessarily correspond.

And you're not crazy that you're realizing there's two different, you know, processes that you're in. I think that it could be just because I think of emotionally where someone who's struggling with unwanted sexual behavior could be at. It's like, no, no, no. I did all this work. Like, what do you mean? We have to start back at the first stage again. That's normal because of that. So I think not to, like, normalize it and that it's something we should look forward to, but normalize it in a sense of, like, you're not crazy that you're now experiencing this process once again with your spouse.

Yeah. I think having an idea that these stages also exist, like you were saying, Nick, is helpful because, like, these first couple stages are horrible. Like, the first three stages, like crisis, decision, shock, and grief, Right? Yeah, horrible. Like, back to back horrible. And. And for a lot of people, when they start, whether it's the addict or spouse, when they process, they're like, okay, I've come and talked to you now where I've been in group for X amount of time. And like, like, I hurt more now. Like, what did you do to me? You know, and it's kind of like what we've heard Heather say. Like, you know, you, like, you broke me, now fix me.

Yeah.

You know?

Yeah.

And. And so I think it's good to understand that these first stages of moving into health are painful.

Yeah.

And I heard this analogy, or I read it in this book. It says basically, like, if you were told you're going on a journey, and. And at the beginning of the journey, you descend into a dark valley and the road is bumpy and there's wolves howling on the side of the road. Right. And it's going to get cold and you're going to feel alone, and it's going to feel dark. Then when you're on that journey, hopefully every bump in the road, every howling wolf. Right. The darkness and the coldness is just a reminder that you're on the right path. Yeah. And in some sense, like, in the recovery world that you have to feel to heal, these first three stages are really just about coming to terms with your reality and feeling. And it doesn't mean that you're on the wrong path. If anything, you know, it's like, okay, it's good that you're feeling something.

Yeah.

Yep.

You gotta feel the heel. We've said it on the podcast a number of times, and there's a truth that when we're in denial, minimization or rationalization. We can't heal because we're not going through these very stages. So Bob, for a lot of people, their very next follow up question when they ask about stages will be, okay, how long will this take? Especially those type A personalities, like, give me the calendar, give me the timeline, what am I looking at in order to move through these stages?

Yeah, I mean it's five stages. So you can get this done in a standard work week.

Sure, yeah.

Right, yeah.

See you guys later.

As long as it's a nine to five work week. Another podcast? Yeah. Yes and no. Right. So even the language that we use of like the three to five year process, like that came out of Dr. Carnes work and lines up with these five stages. But you know, we know that that's relative to like how much trauma did you have when you came into this process? Like, do you have family support? Are you working with a clinician? Are you in a good recovery group? Like, do you have all of these things? And if so, you know, that's a three to five year. If you're outside of that, you don't have good family support, you don't have a clinician that's skilled in the area of sexual addiction, you don't have a support group. You know, then, then it's, it can take longer. But as far as the stages go, they're also kind of cyclical. I mean, you mentioned, okay, maybe, maybe I've already gone through this crisis decision, shock, grief, and now I disclose to my spouse, well, now I'm back at this crisis decision stage again and there's.

More shock and there's more grief. Yeah.

And, and the longer, the longer we are in this process of recovery, AKA sanctification, like we're having to, to confront our realities. And so maybe we work through the bulk of our stuff. I was talking to some of the other day, he's like, I feel like I'm like 80% through my stuff. And I was like, okay, well let's just say if you went made through 80% of your stuff in three years, then the remainder, 20% of your stuff is going to be for the rest of your life. Right, right. And so there's going to be new things that come up that we're like, oh my gosh, like that we're shocked at. I never realized how, you know, this emotional component of my life was affected by this and we have to grieve through that. So it is cyclical. So answer is that, you know, yes, how long?

Well, another thing it's going to depend on, too, is the involvement of both of the spouses. If this is something where both, you know, you're in a marriage and then there's unwanted sexual behavior, this could be. You do something in three years, but then your marriage either doesn't like, it doesn't last, it blows up, or that in and of itself could take 3, 5, it may be even longer. It depends on, again, to what you were saying, all those factors. So it is dynamic, but it is also going to be contingent, and you're not going to be able to put like, an exact timestamp on it, but it will be contingent on the investment or the willingness of both of the spouses to enter the process.

Yeah, you know, we've said to a lot of people it's going to take as long as it takes.

Yeah, right.

And it will be different person to person. I mean, it's a little bit like asking the question, how long will I grieve the loss of a parent? It's like, well, there's not a timestamp on that. It will change over time, sure. But. But if five years down the road, something reminds you of that parent you've lost, you may have grief all over. And that doesn't mean you're still stuck in grief. It just. It doesn't necessarily have a clean, like, end date. And I think that's what I'd say for people listening. If we're asking about stages, because we want to know, like, when we're done, that may be an unhealthy expectation. And we've talked about this before as well, that kind of a rival mindset of when will we be fixed? When will we be like, well, this is a journey towards health. And in terms of journeying towards health as an individual or as a couple, we're all on that journey for a lifetime. And so, yes, we all want to get towards places where it feels like things are stabilized. You know, we're in that growth stage. But I, I think of that growth stage as an, really an unending stage of our process. So we do want to look for kind of where we're at. What in this season do we need to focus on? What do we need to prioritize but not get kind of that. That finish line of, okay, then we'll be done. I mean, you may finish with counseling or you may finish. There may be some markers along the way of like, okay, we're moving into a new season, but in terms of your journey, we're on that growth journey for a lifetime.

Yeah. And I think to give at least maybe in an ideal, you know, in a vacuum. Right. Where you have all that support and a counselor and a group and you and your spouse are working through things together and you don't have other health problems that end up factoring into it or, you know, whatever, then let's just say in that three to five year process, I think you would be able to get through a bulk of your trauma, like where you've, where you've been able to work through it, identify it, process through it and, and move in a healthier direction. A bulk of your addictive behavior to where you've limited that damaging behavior and you're not continuing to act out. Right. At the same rate that you were before. So I mean, I think you, in those terms, you know, within that three to five year process, you ideally would be at, at the last couple years of it in repair and growth. Right. It's only the beginning. The, like the intensive beginning portion. As long as you have all of that stuff that you're really plowing through, the grief and the shock. I'm sorry, that, like the crisis decision, like the shock and the grief that you're really plowing through, all of that. And so I'd say that that's in the first couple of years and then the rest of it ideally is mainly focused on repair and growth. Yeah.

I think a shift that needs to happen for people and it doesn't have to happen right away in recovery. But as you talked about recovery and sanctification, we use those terms synonymously. Right. Is that the right word? Synonymously? Yeah, it felt good coming out, but I was like, I don't really know if that actually is what I mean. Anyways, here we go. I think that a shift that happens while you're in this process, especially on the front end, is you start to realize, and I've heard both of you say it, that we're not about behavior modification, we're about changing the way that we do life. Which means that, you know, that last 20%, like you're still working on stuff. Recovery is a lifelong process of becoming more and more healthy, more and more like Jesus. And I think that that's something that, you know, as we get in this question specifically, like, how long until I am recovered? Well, it's like you can be technically recovered from sexual addiction, you can be healed from betrayal trauma, but that doesn't mean that recovery doesn't continue for you. Because, look, listen, I have been able to like, I have been sober and healthy in the area of sexuality for five years now, which is amaz. But I still got a lot of stuff I'm working on. I am still. And the second time I stand up. Okay. But I just think that that's a shift that needs to happen for everyone, is that recovery is a lifelong process of continuing to get healthy and healthy and healthy.

Yep. Absolutely.

So I think one of our. Like, I think some of the heart of our ministry is. I know that the heart of our ministry is to reach both people who are addicted and both them and the betrayed spouse. People who are experiencing that trauma are the stages, because both of them happen through a process. Like healing is a process, recovery is a process. Are the stages of that recovery and healing the same for both an addict and a betrayed spouse? Or are they different in some ways?

I think that they are very similar because both of them are going to. I mean, the crisis decision stage is really that there's been enough discomfort that you're willing to ask for help in facing your reality. Right. And reality, not just of today, but. But. But our. Our reality is basically the accumulative effect of every experience we've had in our life, like, plus our parents and our grandparents. Right. And so on. So when we say facing our reality, it's raised. It's really everything that's ever happened to us. And so the crisis decision stage is just representative of them feeling enough discomfort that they say, I. I think I need some help. And both the addict and spouse have to do that. Right. Because we have addicts that come in and say, this is the reality of what I've been doing. And spouses that are like, all right, whatever. Doesn't bother me, you know, And. And everybody processes through things differently. However, there's still part for the spouse, too, that has to say, okay, this is what my reality has been. And so I think that these do parallel each other. The grief part is different.

Yeah.

You know, for. For a spouse, because they have. They have a different thing to grieve through because they're the. They've been betrayed as well as lost, this past stuff. But, yeah, I think that these. That these stages emotionally do parallel each other, may not. Maybe not at the same time, like we said.

Right.

But we all need to go through all of this.

Yeah. What I was thinking about is what the individual experiences in the stages may be very different because of, you know, the addict who's facing the reality of their own choices, grieving, the things they've done to other people. And that will require different steps than the betrayed spouse, who's more the recipient of the trauma and the pain and the disclosure and the way in which the betrayed spouse can feel like they don't have control, in a sense that the addict may be controlling what level of information they give. Now, in an ideal situation, they're choosing to be completely forthright, go through a full disclosure process, take a lie detector test. So the spouse does know everything. But in so many marriages, as we hear about, that's not the case of the betrayed spouse. They've only gotten snippets. They're trying to decide, do I stay in a marriage? Because I still don't know if I know at all. So that's where their need in working through shock and grief and repair will be very different, because they don't control the information or know if they've got it all. But they're still going to go through that process. And I think that is what's encouraging, is whichever side of the equation we're on, we can kind of look at the stages and go, what do I need in the part I'm in? What support do I need? And if my spouse is with me in it, that support may be different, or if they're not, there may be unique things I pursue. So it's not to say the experience will be the same or my needs will be the same, but there are some real reliability to the stages as we walk towards health.

I think one of the things I hope for with this question and us addressing it is that there's a little bit of at least the beginnings of empathy toward each other. Now, even as I say that, I can totally understand where a betrayed spouse is. Like, I've got zero empathy for that person because they've hurt me.

And in some of the stages, that's very, very normal.

You are more than welcome to feel that way, and we support you feeling that way because we talked about already the feeling, the healing thing. But at the same time, as this process continues for both people, that's what we want to develop. We want empathy that the addict is looking at, wow, my behavior and the way that I treated you, gaslighting, all that was really damaging. And I can see how hurtful that was. And at the same time, a betrayed spouse can start to see the woundedness of their spouse that's addicted and understand and make sense of why they were doing those things. That's not going to happen out the gate. That's not going to happen even early on. But I think that that's at least for me, as we talk about this. That's like, what I know I want to see in couples that are moving forward in healing is that they grow in empathy and understanding for each other's experiences. And I think that that's why I'm glad that we're addressing this, that there are similarities so we can look kind of across, across the line and see that we're both processing through this.

So let's take that a little bit deeper. Bob, we talked about that they will have different experiences, but at the same time, what are some common experiences that the addicts and betrayed spouses go through while in recovery?

Yeah, yeah, I think common. When you say that. Common, I think in the sense of, like, they go through it together, like a little bit more, like not balanced, but paired. Sure, right. Like you said, looking across on the same experience. And so the shock part, I think can still be more individual because they're shocked at, you know, the addict is shocked at how his behavior hurt other people, you know, and the spouse is shocked at the betrayal that was going on or the lies that were going on this whole time. Right. So that's a bit different. But the grieving part, like, for, if you're, you know, if it is an addict and a spouse, the grieving part, they have to grieve the same timeline, right? Like the timeline of their relationship has, has these moments. They look back and they're like, oh, yeah, that one Christmas when you left to go to the grocery store, like you also stopped and had an affair or you went to the adult bookstore or. Right. So there's these moments where they look back and both of them have to grieve those together. They grieve. They grieve the sense, in the sense that, that it's not what they wanted it to be and, and that they can never get that back. And maybe they have to grieve that every Christmas they're. They're going to be reminded of that. Right? Like they're going to be reminded and, and that if he says, hey, I'm going to go grab something on Christmas day, that the spouse is like, oh, no, you're not. You know, like, maybe we can. Or you know what we can. We can do without a turkey this Thanksgiving, you know, like that. And so, so I think the grieving part is common for them because they have this, this timeline, this past timeline that they can't relive, they can't do over. They can't get those moments back. Like their children can't be Born again and the addict be present during this newborn time. You know what I mean? They can't get this stuff back.

Yeah.

So I think the grieving is a very common thing, but then also the repair, because ideally they would be repairing this stuff together. And if you. If you're single. Right. Obviously this question is a little bit more to the. To the couple. But if you're single, you still have these same things to grieve.

Totally.

Like the same. You still have relationships that were affected and all that. But for a couple, like, if they can repair together, that's ideal. Yeah. Right. If. If a marriage can stay together and they can begin to build emotional intimacy. Right. That's repair.

Yeah.

But for the addict, it's. I have to repair the fact that I've broken your trust. And for the spouse, maybe part of their repair is standing up for themselves and communicating their needs so that maybe one day, possibly they can start to trust the addict again.

Well, the thing about the repair and what makes most sense to me is that that is something where we're experiencing new things together in the sense of like in the past, you used to say something like this, which would trigger me, and then I would go to this behavior and then, you know, I would end up hurting you more. Where. No, no, no, I'm going to. I've. We're practicing and experiencing brand new things. We talk about that all the time.

Yeah.

In recovery that it's not just stopping old behaviors, it's replacing it with new behaviors or new experiences. You know, I think of like the personal promise. I mean, that's. You're. You're tying truth to an experience that is going to be so helpful. And so I think that's something you're doing together is you're doing some of the same, like dance moves you did when you were in that unhealth, but you're doing it differently. You've learned better ways to process through that in a way that, you know, you said something that was hurtful to me, but I actually shared the emotion in that moment or later that day instead of isolating and going and doing something unhealthy. So I think that that's also what I see in the repair stage is something that we're working together to create those new experiences which develop trust and develop intimacy.

Yeah.

What comes to mind for me about common experiences just from our journey in healing and recovery was how much we, my wife and I both saw the ways that our family of origin and our past trauma really impacted us far more than we realized. And that was kind of some bonding of like. And it's always best, you know, I'd recommend to the listener, don't point out those things for your spouse. You need to arrive at them and discover them themselves. But being able to share that together, because we had both thought we had come from, you know, quote unquote, good Christian families and had really downplayed the impact of that just on our ways of thinking, the ways we related to each other. And the more we got to unpack it in the repair stage and growth stage, like, wow, I've never realized how that impacted my sense of value or identity or how I look to you to meet that need. And, and for my wife to be able to share the same without blame or accusation, just that self awareness, that was a really powerful bonding experience for us. And the other thing I think we really got to share in then was recognizing how much more there was to our relationship than maybe we thought because we were 10 years into marriage. And it can be easy to just get into a pattern of I kind of know you, you know me, we do our thing, we're married, how much more is there to learn? And it just, it felt like in that repair growth stage, like I was, I was meeting a new person, like all these things about my wife that, that honestly, I hadn't taken the time to explore or get to know her well enough that were just coming to light. And it created a much deeper, as Bob said, that intimacy, that bonding, that sense of knowing and being known, that really was exciting. And I'd encourage couples that if you're walking through this together. Yeah, the crisis, shock and grief can really, really be hard. But I've seen it in my own story and from so many couples in the repair and growth where couples start to say, like, our marriage has never been so good. This is amazing. I don't know how we got here and we would never go through it again, but we wouldn't trade it for anything because of what it's doing. And I don't want to make that as like some guarantee of just, well, you'll get there, but. But to offer that hope of it can get really good if you're sharing that experience together. So. So keep walking and looking for those moments to occur.

Yeah, I think there is the guarantee that, that there's something better than this right when we're starting for sure. That's a guarantee.

Yeah.

What that looks like. Right. I mean, we don't know. And there's a lot of people that start this process. And, and at the end of it, are not married anymore, you know, because the trauma and the pain was just too much. And that's. And we understand that and we have, you know, empathy for everybody involved in those scenarios. But even with those two people, even if they, even if their, their new timeline isn't together, there's still something healthier for them on that.

They're still going through these stages that end in growth.

Absolutely. Yeah. And I think that, that, that's highlighting it. Timeline idea is really important is there's this old timeline and we don't want to pause and then pick back up on it. We want to start a new one. And that new one involves all that stuff you're saying. Nick of man. I never, I've never, you know, I've been looking at my spouse for 10 years. I never. And I feel like I've never really seen him before.

Yeah.

You know, because I haven't been present.

So. As humans, we have a tendency to want to do things quickly. Let me just look at our world. Efficiency is a thing, but we do this to avoid pain. So in order to speed up the process, we tend to look for shortcuts in this area. So what are some of those ways that we try to shortcut these stages and speed up the process?

I think in general, it's skipping over the shock and the grief because the shock is the byproduct of being honest about our reality. And the grief is, is kind of the natural follow through to that. And we want to shortcut those things. So maybe we're forced to look at our reality and shocked at it. But then we, we skip over the sitting with the pain of that and, and we want to immediately get to the, the growth. Right? We want to, we want to be like, no, but look at everything I'm doing. Right? Like, look, I've done all this stuff, I've checked all the boxes, you know, and everything's good. And so. And I think we see this with, with both addicts and spouses where they want to skip over that, the shock and the grief, the painful part, and get to where everything's good again.

Can't we just repair already?

Yeah. Can we just be good? Like, I want to be able to just go have dinner with you and not be upset.

You not cry.

Yeah.

Yeah, totally.

Yeah. Yeah. Or you not. Or you not sit there, right? Yeah. For the. Maybe for the spouse you not cry. Maybe for the addict. Sit there in your shame. Like, I'm tired of going to dinner with my husband and like, he's just sits there in his shame. Yeah. Like, can you not get out of your shame already? Right. Like, we want to skip beyond that.

Absolutely.

And. And, yeah, I mean, I think. I think we want to skip those two. Those two parts. But then what happens is you have someone that's been in recovery for seven years. They've never dealt with this stuff, and so they're still being triggered all the time. Right. It's that dry drunk kind of idea.

And life has a funny way of coming back and poking that wound with a really big stick. Yeah. And it's going to come back up again. Yeah.

I think for a lot of people walking out of addiction, they may feel like the shock stage is confusing to them because, like, I already know what I did. And it's not necessarily what you did. It's recognizing the full impact of it. And that may come. That may not come right away. You may need to be in group and be telling your whole story and learning to be honest. And I remember my first year having, you know, even six, seven months in these aha. Moments of like, oh, my goodness, I really hurt my wife or I really avoided my kids. I really wasn't as present. You know, I. I think we were not aware of how much rationalizing and minimizing we've done. And when we're learning to walk in truth and stay in the light, that's where the shock to us as the addict will keep coming. So shock isn't just what happens to the other person because we tell them about our behaviors.

Yeah.

I think it's that what we've said here, the emotional recognition of, wow, I've hurt people because I've spent so long saying, this doesn't hurt anybody. And also, even the shock of, I've got a lot more wounds in my life than I've ever realized. And there was some shock to that of, like, wow, I've got some dysfunction and I need to grieve it and not fast forward. So I think just be aware of that, that if you're the addict or struggler, you may have to go through some shock. And that's not just about your spouse. And the other thing I see is we try to shortcut the process for others, for the. For the spouse of, like, would you hurry up and get through grief? Would you hurry up and get through? Yeah. And now if we love someone and we feel they're stuck, there's appropriate ways we might. And that should come up in the podcast on grief. We can go back to that. I Think in love. Where we could try to encourage. How could I help? How could we get support? But when we're trying to tell someone to hurry up, we're basically denying their need to go through that process, to go through that stage at whatever speed they need to. So that's where I'd be aware of. Don't try to shortcut someone else's process because you're uncomfortable of where they're at.

I feel like that might be. This is a stab maybe not necessarily in the dark, but it's like, darker on the side. Darker. But I think if you're trying to push people through that process and shortchange it for them, it's probably because you've also, like, tried to speed up your process and shortchanged your process. Because I, you know, what I wrote down is thinking about, I'm trying to connect the dots for other people. It's like, well, don't you understand that this is tied to the. You know, I'm thinking of betrayed spouse. Like, well, of course you're doing this because this is what your dad did when you were a kid. So don't you see? Can't you just change that now? It's like, well, well, no. Like, no, I can't. You know, and the same thing for. Because I know we get this a lot on the addict side where I don't understand why my betrayed spouse is taking so long to heal. Don't they understand? You know, all you talked about showing the work, like, I've been going to group for a year, and we're still in these first two stages. What is happening? And I think that that creates, like, you're just impatient and you're antsy and you want to move and you want to. You want to get to the repair and the growth. And I think that one of the ways we do that is we try to connect the dots for other people, which you may be right, but your timing sucks. Don't do it. They have to do that.

Yeah. I mean, think about as a parent, right? When my kids are having big emotions, and I want them to get over it.

Right.

Like, it's not that I want them to get over it so that they can enjoy their life. I want them to get over it so that I can enjoy my life.

Exactly.

Right.

So it's not ruining my day.

It's about. Exactly. Yeah. It's about my inability to process pain.

Yes.

And, and, and, and we can twist it and distort it to say, well, I just want you to get to a Better place. But really it's about like, yes, I do. Of course I want my kids to be upset, but ideally, I want them to be able to work through their emotions so they can be a healthy adult. Yeah, there's. Sorry, there's one other thought with this, and I was thinking about the. The. The shock part, you know, how they've hurt other people. But there's also. And one of the assessments that we. That we give people, the Taylor Johnson temperament analysis, one of the realities that comes out of it for a lot of people is that because they've been hurt in the past, they. They are anxious about relationship and apprehensive. And so they emotionally hold themselves back from relationship. They feel shame like they're the problem. So they try not to rock the boat, and they're angry about it. Right. But at the end of the day, they haven't made their needs known at the end of the day, because they're so afraid of being hurt that they haven't made their needs known and allowed other people to actually get to know them. And so one of the unfortunate realities is that for a lot of these addicts, they've been hurting people, but in the meantime, they've actually never allowed anyone to love them because they've been hiding. And that's a really crappy reality, too.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

I think that reality is what can shock us, and we need to be open to that because then if we are aware and being shocked, we can get to some of those other stages. So on that note, Bob, how do these stages help us see what the end goal of recovery is?

Yeah, I think the fact that these stages end with repair and growth. Right. That, that. And it doesn't. It's not repair and perfection.

Yeah, right.

It's like repair and growth, which is a continual thing. The stages say we have to face pain to be able to get to something better. And what we know about addiction or any destructive coping mechanisms is that they're about avoiding pain and fear. And so I think with this, the end goal, it shows us that we have to be willing to face pain and fear so that we can get to a better place. And that better place isn't a destination. Right. That better place is an approach to viewing life and how we interact with other people.

I've heard the quote, I've seen the TED talk. I can't remember the guy's name, but the quote, that the opposite of addiction is not sobriety. The opposite of addiction is connection. And so for me, like, the whole goal of understanding these Stages is to realize that relationship is the goal. And for me, I'm starting to learn a little bit of this different layer of relationship where I mean, and I think this is very healthy and is absolutely a part of it. Your relationship with other people, your relationship with the Lord. Absolutely. I think those things, seeing actual real connection in both of those arenas in relationship is very important. But I'm also seeing that relationship with self is also this thing that we realize in recovery. I know for me, like that's been a huge part of my recovery is understanding my relationship to myself has a lot of far reaching implications into all areas of my life.

Yeah.

Um, so I think that that's what understanding these stages does, is it helps me understand that relationship connection being known and knowing is the goal.

Yeah, yeah, sure.

I think of like the, the Lazarus story, right. That Lazarus comes out and, and when Jesus tells the bystanders to, to go untie him and let him go. Like the let him go part is like get out of his way and let him go on with a fruitful life. And I mean, that's what we're created for. We're not created for stagnation. We're not created for brokenness. But we have to face the stagnation, face the pain, face the brokenness, and then have relationships that propel us into life as opposed to hold us back. And so the goal is like that we would go on to be ourselves, to, to pursue growth in our passions and our relationships. Right. In our skills, that we would even think forward and be able to have hope without it being a painful thing. Right. With like, like that we could have hope and joy and, and that not just bring up our shame.

Yeah. Yeah. By the way, that TED talk that you mentioned, Trevor, is by Johann Hari H A R I. If anyone wants to look it up, it is well worth your. What is it, like 10, 15 minutes to watch. And it's called everything you know about addiction is wrong.

Yeah.

And really a good, good watch if you haven't seen it. What comes to mind for me about how these, knowing the stages helps is just to remember that we're in a process, that we're walking through something that many others have. And we've used the phrase trust the process. And if you don't like where you're at right now, don't try to shortcut it or jump out of it, but trust the process. Walk through it. Be in whatever you're in, whether it's the shock or the grief or the repair or the growth. Just like Keep moving forward and face what needs to be faced because it is getting you somewhere and because these stages have been routine enough that they've been able to name them. And I think it speaks to all of us. There's hope that I am getting somewhere and if I don't like where I am, I can keep moving forward believing that I will get into that growth stage eventually.

Yeah, yeah. I was going to bring up Johann Hari, actually, as a. From that quote. Like, he's written these two books that. That have been really transformational for a lot of people. One of them is about depression and one of them is about addiction. And in both of them, but especially the depression one is the idea that, like, more than drugs, like, more, you know, more than. Than drugs. To combat depression, what we need is relationship. And so even that idea about the opposite of addiction is connection. Right. Like, and he's a journalist, so he's. This is going out from talking to people and. And how. I don't know, exciting that is that we could say, wow, relationship is the answer. And that's Jesus on the cross. Right? I mean, that's the redemptive work of Jesus is about relationship. That's the goal now. Yeah, those books are great.

Being reconciled to God in relationship is the foundation, something that I just.

And I didn't think it was going to connect. But, Nick, as you were sharing, I thought I heard this quote recently and I can't remember again, if you can find this one too, that'd be great. Nick, if you can find out who said this, I got the Google already in a book. This quote was mentioned that there are two tragedies. There are two things that we want to avoid or don't like in life. And that's not knowing what we want is one of them. And the second one is knowing what we want but not knowing how to get there. And what's amazing about these stages is it gives us the map of where we can go because we know if you have hit that crisis decision, you know, change needs to happen. Like. And so that idea of a process, I think is so encouraging because, yes, it is going to be difficult and it is going to be a lot of work, but you know that there is a next stage, there is a next step. It's not. I have to figure this out by myself. And I think that's something that people need to hear in this is you don't need to figure out. You don't need to figure this all out by yourself.

It's great. That quote is actually I mean, it's not from it, but it's repeated in a movie with Paul Rudd and Reese Witherspoon and Jack Nicholson where she goes to a therapist who's. I think Tony Shalob plays the therapist, and she's like, can you give me just, like, in general, like, a quote, an idea that, like, for pretty much any problem would help people out? He's like, okay. He said, it's this. Figure out what you want and learn how to ask for it.

Yeah.

And it's like, actually really deep in the midst of kind of this comical movie because there's a ton of truth to it. It just parallels what you said there.

Totally. So one of the things that we want to address with this, too, is knowing now that we know what these stages are and we've talked a little bit about them, at least an introductory, which, again, we will get to them in another series, really unpacking these. But knowing these stages, how do we see that the church, really, the traditional church approach, that dealing with addiction and betrayal actually misses the mark when we understand these. Like, how. How does it help us identify the things we're doing wrong in the church or the things that we need to improve? And then what are some encouragements you'd give to churches on how to better understand and process people through these stages?

Yeah. At the beginning of this podcast, I think, Nick, you said something about we hear these stages, but we're not really sure how long they take or how long it, you know, it's like, oh, yeah, that's going to be. It's going to be quick. I think even when we read narrative in the Bible, you know, it's. It's like, okay, it was a paragraph, but maybe that spanned, you know, years. Right? Like, and so when we read these narratives of. Of God working with Israel or Jesus interacting with people or disciples, like, it becomes very, I don't know, shortened in our mind of what that timeframe was. And. And so I think in general, as you know, the traditional, like, church approach has been also, it's been a very shortened one. And, you know, understandably, like, we want. We want immediacy, like, we want change, we want health, we want things to be better and different, but we don't give people the time and space to do that. And we expect a lot of times, if someone comes down front to be prayed for for because they're struggling with the spirit of lust. Right. Then kind of the expectation is great, I prayed for you, now don't do it again. And we don't allow for this, this transformational work to take place. And so I think that that's the biggest thing is just that we, we. We expect immediate change and immediate, immediate results, but we don't allow it to be transformed by the renewing of our mind. We don't allow for the process of being born again and what that really means. Right. Like, we don't, we don't give space for that. And, and, and we, we place that onto people and, and then they feel more shame when they can't meet that expectation of immediate change.

Yeah, we've talked about this before, but the concept of spiritual bypass, that. That's what happens in a lot of Christian circles is kind of the, the name it, claim it, faith. If I prayed over you now, it should be all better. And we think of God as more of a magician than a surgeon, where I think that is the imagery of, like, a God who wants to help us get into those. Those wounded places in our life, those dark places in our past, and not just act like they don't exist, but go in there with us and cut away the lies, cut away what's not of him, cut away what is not the truth of his love and his presence, and help us heal the pain that was in there by cleaning it up and setting it right. And that may be a process over time. And I think we just don't have categories for that. In a lot of our churches, we want people just to jump right into the. The growth stage. Like, as we've said in this podcast, you can't jump into growth unless you are aware of what's there and what needs to be healed. And so if we're telling ourselves or others, like, well, the past is in the past, and Paul said he forgot the past, it's like, well, not only is that taking that verse out of context, but that's really not, I think, how God does a healing work in our life. He invites us to meet him and experience Him. So the truth of his love replaces those lies, but we've got to be willing to go through it. So I think that's the main thing I'd say is just be aware of where we're exercising spiritual bypass because we don't really want to face the pain.

Yeah. What's coming to mind, we had a conversation with Keith Jenkins, a pastor, actually. He's the pastor at the church that Ted. Dr. Ted was a pastor at for a long time. And we were talking about just the messy nature of growth, sanctification, recovery. And in that episode, we Talked a little bit about this that I think is. And I know this from my experience as a pastor in a church that, you know, to what you guys are both mentioning this idea of, like, I just want it to be done. Like, I just want to give you the right Bible answer. You take it, you go home, you apply it, and cool. You know, we're good. But if we're using the illustration of surgery, like, it's messy, it is bloody, and it takes certain tools that are very invasive. And I think that that's something that we need to understand. And this is what I love about these stages, is it's going to. It's explaining to us, it's putting it in a framework that we can understand that this process will be messy and will take time, you know, because I feel like what I hear a lot is, just forgive him. Just forgive him. Just forgive him. Just, like, move on. And forgiveness and restoration are not the same thing. Like a do not equal sign is there. One leads to the other, but they're not the same. I think we need to. I just think it's an oversimplification of the sanctification process and a lack of understanding of how we as a person actually grow that leads to pushing people into this process way too quick and. And, gosh, without competency.

Yeah. Yeah. No, I love that surgery analogy too. Like, not only is it messy and, you know, and it's. And it's not a magician surgery, but if you have cancer and, like, you have cancer removed from wherever it is, doctor's not going to be like, all right, cool, you're good.

High five.

They're gonna. They're gonna say, all right, cool. Come back in X amount of time. And then come back in X amount of time. And then again, and then again, and then if things look good, then we'll, like, it'll be a little bit more time before you have to come back, and then maybe a little bit more time. And in the church traditionally, it's been, okay, we're done. You're good.

Yeah.

Without the cancer. Yeah. And. And if you come back with cancer, what did you do wrong? You know what I mean? Like. Like you did something wrong. If you got cancer again versus. No, this is just. This is a vulnerability that you have for whatever reasons. And, like, let's just be honest about it, and let's keep an eye on it.

And. And the, Like, I think of physical therapy every time we talk about this kind of analogy. After you get surgery, it's not like you're just set and you can. If you break your leg and then you have surgery to reset it and you're good, you don't just get to go run the next day unless you're stumble. I feel like maybe, maybe you would because you're such a good runner.

That's why we try, unfortunately.

Right. So that would be the season where Nick is no longer on staff and he's probably dead. But I think that got really morbid really fast.

I'm sorry.

I'm so sorry. But I think that that's what we all miss you.

Thank you.

I think that's what we need to remember, though, is that after surgery, there is a time of healing where you have to maybe sit and not move and not do that action or that movement so that that bone can reset so that you can heal. So because your body wants to heal and that process is going to be healing. But I think we need to give people time to relearn how to use their broken leg or this broken part of them. And again, it just.

It takes so much time, almost like repair and growth. Yep.

This episode has been great. I'm really thankful that we're able to identify these. I think even in my own recovery, thinking through what stage am I in or what areas of my life am I at different stages. You know, I think about that too. And so I think this has been helpful for me, but I know this is going to be helpful for the listeners as well. Just understanding there is a process, understanding this does take time, and understanding that even though it does take time, if we work it over time, we will grow, we will repair those relationships, we will repair our life. So, Bob, thanks for being with us, man. We appreciate what you do as a. As a counselor here, but then also just your friendship being with us.

Yeah, yeah. Thank you. And I just to give yourself the permission to go through these stages and then go through them again. Right?

Yeah.

And then go through, like, to give yourself the permission to do that and to give your spouse. This sounds bad, but, like, to give your spouse the permission as well to invite them. That sounds better. Invite them to go through the stages as they need to.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

It's good. So remember, wherever you're at on your journey, pure desire is here to help create a roadmap for your healing. If you were someone you know is impacted by sexual brokenness or betrayal trauma, go to PureDesire.org and let's start the healing journey today. Don't forget to subscribe to the podcast. Each week we put out new content to help you on the road to healing and freedom. And lastly, never stop being healthy.