237 - Church Hurdles (REPLAY)

You're listening to the Pure Desire podcast, your safe place to find hope, healing, and freedom from sexual addiction, betrayal, and relationship issues. What is up, people? I'm your host, Trevor Windsor, and you're listening to episode 237 of the Pure Desire podcast here. Joining me again virtually because Covid sucks is my co host, Nick Stumbo.

Me. Back it up, back it up.

Okay, so we have another pivot episode for the Pure Desire podcast today, which I think is. You're going to hear some of Nick's intro. What, what we're after today, we're re releasing a really old episode. It was released all the way back in December of 2017. Nick, we've been doing this for a while now. I don't know if you.

Yes.

You remember this.

We have.

But this is a great episode and is still really applicable. Today we talked with Rodney Wright about church hurdles to addressing sexual brokenness and betrayal trauma.

Yeah.

We're rewinding the tape over 200 episodes, so we're backing it up. And we wanted to, I think, refocus on this episode because it's still a present reality that when most people look around for recovery, it's not happening in their local church because there aren't groups available there. And we did this episode not because we're against the church or down in the church, but really because we believe in the church and we believe so strongly that the church is the place best equipped to be someone's center of healing. And we want to help churches get there. And so this was a conversation with Rodney, being a pastor, you and I, having pastoral experience to really talk through how do we navigate the hurdles? Sometimes they exist naturally in a church culture. Sometimes it's about the just the bent or the personality of a leader. It can be different things in different churches, but just how do we navigate through those? Hopefully for the outcome of having a local church take ownership for men's and women's recovery groups. And so whether you're a pastor listening, just trying to get insight into your church, or you're the church member, you're volunteer, you're the peer desire group member that wants to bring it to your church, that is why we did this episode, to just try to get creative, to strategize how we can help churches become that center for healing and hopefully one day be the place when men and women are looking for recovery. They say, man, my church does that. And they have navigated those hurdles.

Yeah. So we are obviously excited to put this episode back out into the world for a Second time. But real quick, a few things. Subscribe to the podcast. If you are not a subscriber, just do it. Don't wait any longer. You can find us on all the major platforms and give us a review. It does help. You can also follow us on social media at PureDesirePDMI. You can also find full episodes of our podcast up on YouTube. To search Pure Desire Ministries and then Nick, we would like to circle back to these every once in a while just to remind people that we offer Pure Desire online groups.

Yes we do. We want the church to be the center of healing, but because that isn't happening at so many places, we know that men and women need a safe place to find recovery and healing. And so we are offering groups online, particularly while you're in the process, hopefully of bringing these groups to your church. There's a place you can go to get healthy. And so we have men's Seven Pillars of Freedom groups, the Living Free Group for young men, for women, the Betrayal and Beyond group, and then for women who have their own need for overcoming a struggle or addiction with pornography, sex, love, whatever might be on that spectrum. The women's group is called Unraveled and those groups are on our website. Now if you go to the website and there's no groups, that may be because once a group fills, we take it off the website. And that's because we really want a group to be safe and committed to one another. And so you start together with your group and it doesn't have new people coming in, you'll be with that group for the whole time of meeting. So that just means if you don't see any groups up, it just means there aren't any currently launching. So make sure you click the box that says notify me when a new group goes up because then you'll get an email when a new Seven Pillars for Men group goes up or a new Unraveled for Women's group goes up. And then you can go and get signed up and walk through an online group with one of our certified and vetted Pure Desire group leaders who can really help you have a great group experience.

Absolutely. So if you are interested in online groups, just go to PureDesire.org groups. All right, here is our replay episode with Rodney on church hurdle hurdles. Today we are graced by the presence of the Tender Teddy Bear himself, Rodney Wright. Rodney, thanks for hanging out with us today.

That is a crazy. I don't know where that's even coming from.

The Tender Teddy Bear. If you don't know Rodney. Rodney's a pretty tall guy. He's a nice build, and he is just the most gracious dude I know. So for me, you were just the tender teddy bear.

Okay, so be it.

Alrighty. Well, Rodney is on with us today. He's a pastor at Lake City Church in Coeur d', Alene, Idaho. Don't try to spell that. I'm awful at it. Rodney is also on the board here for Pure Desire. So we're excited to have Rodney on with us to talk about really the struggles or the hurdles that pastors and churches have when thinking about starting a purity ministry or pure desire groups. This worked out nicely because Nick and I also have pastoral ministry in our background. So we hope to speak to really any pastors or church leaders or just lay leaders out there about why and how to bring Pure desire to your church. So if you guys are ready, let's get going.

Let's do it.

Yeah, it's exciting. Well, Rodney, glad to have you with us today. Why don't we start out by just letting you tell a little bit of your story, give us some of your background. I know you have your own journey, but then also a little bit of the story of what happened at your church there at Lake City.

Yeah, you bet. It's good to be with you guys today. And you know, my story just is born in Salinas, California. Raised in a little town called Modesto, Christian Evangelical home. Father's a minister. In many ways a really good, healthy family of origin. Of course we know there's no such thing as a perfect family and that we're all dysfunctional at some level, but really grateful for the faith that was passed on to me. But one of the challenges of I was born in 67, so I'm 50. One of the challenges of being raised in the 70s and 80s in the evangelical or for me, it was a Pentecostal church. Was there wasn't a lot of healthy conversations about what is good about our human sexuality. Therefore, when many of us were, like myself, were exposed to pornography at a young age, we just didn't have a lot of safe places or people to process all that with or no one was really talking about masturbation or pornography or how to navigate your adolescence in this regard. And it wasn't just that open format where you just had those safe communities to talk about it. And because of that, I think that myself with my own journey of navigating pornography and sexual addiction, but I think many of us got caught in that trap where we deeply loved God. And we deeply wanted to live an honoring life, but. But really just didn't know what was happening. And so my journey looked a lot like in my youth years, coming forward to an altar, a sincere, open heart, praying to God to forgive and take this away, and just jumping through those mental hurdles, just try to release some of that shame that I kind of carried. And literally didn't really recognize I had a problem, a real addiction, till my latter years and in my 20s. So it was really interesting because you thought, hey, that was a problem that happened long ago, and we're okay. So my journey of healing actually came in my 20s when I simply said, God, lead me to people and resources that can help me heal. Because I was already confessing. It wasn't necessarily a big secret that only I knew. And my confession year started younger with my brother. But finally God directed me to a sexual trauma assessment treatment therapist. That was. That was a lot to say in the eight. In the. When I was in my 20s, you know, yeah, only people that were really messed up went to those guys. And so I. It really startled me when. When I really sensed that. That God was directing me to a person in this arena that could really help me. But I think I didn't know then. I know now. We went through out of the shadows Patrick Carnes material, which is one of the base materials that Ted Roberts and Pure Desire have really structured the whole program around. So it was such a gift for me to hear about the neuroscience, about the pattern in my brain, about what was happening to me, and learned about the traumas in my life that I needed to grieve and process, and that this really was a coping mechanism and really learning how to retrain my brain, which is really what Scripture talks about. We don't always have the language or the tools or the resources to know how to do that. And we put a lot of emphasis on that. Pastor to preach that one magic sermon that's going to bring people up front and it's going to take it all away. It's almost like we're selling magic. And the reality is that we heal in community. And so when you find safe people and safe places and tools and resources that let you know what's going on, like neurologically and physiologically and what's going on to you emotionally and mentally and how scripture speaks to all that, but maybe just taking a different take and living in community, you know, this became the journey of healing for me. So that was a little bit of my life in the 20s. Found some great resources Counseling and help for my wife and I, and really found some great help. Fast forward that maybe 16, 20 years later, I would share my story with people individually that I felt needed the help. It was when I met this friend named Joe here in Coeur d' Alene, who came to me at a recovery group, celebrate Recovery, and says, what are we doing for sexual addiction? And I'll never forget where we were standing. I felt that same prompting in my heart. He said, there's a training by this guy, Ted and Diane Roberts in Spokane, Pure Desire University. Would you want to come with me? And I felt that same prompting of God saying, rod, would you want to join me in what I'm doing to help heal the church and to heal the world? And it was just as clear as I felt when the Lord said, that therapist is going to help you. And I'm not really a big God, said guy, because I heard that. I've heard that abused a lot kind of growing up. God said, give me $30 kind of stuff. You know what I'm saying? That kind of stuff.

Does that work? Because I do that more.

If that worked, it was more like 30,000, you know, depending on what channel you're on. But it didn't feel like manipulation. It felt like a simple invitation to join God in sharing your story and your life and offering hope and healing to other people. So we went to the training. We came back to our church here at Lake City and said, I'm going to lead the first group for men because I have found a resource that I can really. That I can just with confidence, say, hey, this. This is providing a sound, holistic approach to help people heal. From the neuroscience of understanding what's going on in the brain to the process of grieving, to all of those things and the curriculum work of retraining the brain. This was a process addiction. It was going to take a process for us to heal. And so for me, it was really meaningful. We started our first group, and I led the way. And so I had. I had never done group therapy before. My healing came through an individual therapist. So I didn't want to hurt people or mess anybody up trying to. Trying to figure out how this all works, right? But I had a guy with me who had been through Pure Desire before, named Jack. He would drive over, and about three months into it, he said, rod, you're good to go. Take off. And so we went through the seven pillars, and what we found is it really started a movement in our congregation where we lowered shame. And we said to People get in this community where you can find healing and wholeness. And so for us, here we are four, four and a half years later and I think we've seen, and this is a pretty realistic number, well over 200 people, men and women, go through the seven pillars, betrayal and beyond. Many more of that that have actually seen the Conquer series, which we use as a church wide education tool for people to say this. Sexual addiction is something that we faced, our grandkids, face our kids, get people educated. And out of that we found many people say, hey, I think I need help. And they have gotten help. So for us, this is all kind of unfolded as something very, very fruitful. We just want to continue to help. Other churches say this is such a need in our culture and we have to talk about it, and not just talk about it, but offer resources and tools to help people find healing and wholeness.

Yeah, that's awesome. So let's kind of pull off a little bit of what you were talking about. You know, you were saying as you're growing up that this really isn't a topic that's easy to talk about or to address. And so sex and pornography addiction still today isn't a popular topic to talk about from the pulpit or the front or anywhere in the church. Why do you think that is the case for most churches?

Well, I think part of it is, I think just in generations past, there just wasn't a lot of tools and resources to know how to communicate. And we kind of saw our sexuality as kind of bad or dirty until we got married. Then it became okay. And we're really sexual beings from birth. This is just how God made us, our maleness and femaleness. And so I think one of the approaches that the church is moving toward, which I'm excited, is to just have a very positive aspect of embracing our humanity, whether that's our sexuality or any other aspect of our life. And seeing that it's good and now learning how to manage that in an honorable way that honors ourselves, God and others. Pornography, there's just so much shame around it that, you know, you'd be better off to have murdered somebody or.

Right.

Or been a drug addict or an alcoholic.

Sure.

And because this one just had a lot of shame wrapped around it in that regard. And it's unfortunate, but I think many of us have struggled with it and I think even pastors and individuals who have found healing, it's. I still think they're shame for many of us that they can't, we can't tell our story, we can't offer hope to help other people. And I think this is where many pastors find themselves today. They're maybe not addicted, but they sure have some negative history that they've never really processed or walked through. Yeah, yeah.

If you look at Josh McDowell's the Porn Phenomenon, it shows that 57% of pastors do struggle or have struggled with pornography. And if that's the case, you know, many of us, and I would include myself in that category, for a lot of years, we haven't processed our own struggle. And so the idea of addressing it as a church, we can feel like, well, who am I to talk about this? I haven't even figured out my own story. Or we feel like, I don't want to be inauthentic and address something without telling my story, but I don't feel comfortable doing that. And so I think that can be a major reason pastors or leaders just avoid it because they haven't processed their own story personally. So how can they lead the way in preaching on it? Or it just becomes convenient to preach on other things and hope people address this issue kind of between. They read between the lines and work on their purity without us having to directly address it. Yeah.

And another thing, too. I mean, I think you look at First Corinthians 6, and there's a uniqueness to sexual sin, you know, where you're sinning against your own body. And I think that if Satan's gonna attack any area, it's gonna be that one in the church, and part of it, too. I think if you look at Ephesians 5, you see that the marriage is the image that we give to the world of the relationship between Christ and the church. And this is, you know, the addiction to sex or pornography is a fantastic way to tear that union and that covenant apart and really to tear the church apart from the inside out. So I think that you see a unique, unique set of lies and attack strategy from the enemy when it comes to this area.

Yeah. And all of us are wired, male or female, but, you know, same kind of thing in the. In the clergy world, where. Where does a pastor go to process this? And it has always been safe because they feel like if they say something, they're immediately going to be disqualified from leadership at any level. And I'm not saying that there are things that leadership has to lurk and discern, but how do we take a proactive approach of helping our pastors get healthy and the young guys that are coming in, giving them a real healthy sense of owning it. And I think we're going to help them by some of us owning our story and creating a pathway for them and saying, I'm 50, but I want to help the 20 year olds that are in this single or married. I want to make sure they're healthy and, and creating an atmosphere where they can manage their sexual thoughts and feelings in a very healthy, honorable way.

Yeah, yeah, for sure. So in your experience, Rodney, what are the struggles or hurdles that a pastor or church faces when trying to start a purity ministry or a pure desire group in their church? What are the struggles or hurdles they have to face?

Well, I think the biggest one is shame. I think somehow lowering the shame and educating ourselves that this is a problem that everyone faces in our culture. And so the more we can educate people, the more that we can, in my opinion, take a proactive approach. And this is why for us, the conquer series, this five week video series that Ted Roberts and Kingdom work produced was such an amazing tool because we said to everybody, hey, and not just, hey, if you struggle with porn, meet Rodney in room 12. You know, sign up, sign up in the lobby or raise your hand today if you want to join me. You know, there's not going to be a lot of takers because shame so high. But for us, we simply said, hey, we want to educate all the adults, all the men about the issues that all of us have faced and that our kids and grandkids will face about sexual addiction and pornography and how it affects the brain. So for us, lowering shame was taking the educational approach. And then out of that, many of us got up and shared our stories and shared the healing that we found. And then having the resource like pure desire was a great segue into if this is you, we have a group that's starting. And so it became a real. But you have to talk about it, you have to bridge the gap. You have to be willing to.

You.

Know, take a stand and give voice to this subject. Yeah, yeah.

I think it's interesting when we talk about sexual addiction or sexual struggles, there's three primary lies people buy into and that's that they, they minimalize it, they deny it, or they rationalize. And I think church leadership can do those very three things. That if a pastor has never struggled with this personally, they're probably tempted to minimize the problem and think, oh, well, I didn't struggle. So if anyone, if they would just pray like I did and, you know, divert their eyes, they'd be fine. Others don't think that it's much Of a problem in their church. Like, well, maybe other places have a problem. But, you know, our church, we're solid, we're mature, and so they kind of deny that they have any problem or still in a third category, pastors feel like, well, we're already doing so many ministries, we're so busy, we're already doing important work, and we just. We don't have time for that. And that's a way of kind of rationalizing the problem away to say, well, we're. We're too busy doing other important things. And so we kind of have to face those hurdles, whether personally, in our own journey or as a church.

Yeah, yeah. And I think, Rodney, what you were saying, that shame leads to fear. I think in that area, I think that, you know, it definitely, you know, because my background in worship, but also in youth ministry was, you know, the kids just know that it's there, and they were super honest about it. Like, this is where I'm at. I'm struggling with pornography, and that's just the culture they grew up in because all their friends shared it. But it's just there's this. The shame leads to just fear to even talk about it, fear to even bring it up, fear to even start the conversation. And I think that, you know, that's. That's a way that that shame, I think, manifests in the local churches.

Well, and I think sometimes not willingly or they were necessarily trying to do it, but many times, the God I got handed, I was more afraid of than I could really trust. Does this God really have my best interest? You know, over 100 times in scripture, heaven says to earth, do not be afraid. It's like a theme, you know, that God is actually good, benevolent for us, have nothing but our best interest, and yet God won't violate our will. We can still hide or we can still do our things. And so for me, it was just about saying, I really believe God has nothing but my best interest and actually wants to lead me to people and resources to help me heal. And it was just amazing how that individual counselor became an answer to my prayer. I've led six groups here at our fellowship, one of them just for pastors. And what I've realized is nothing that I've been a part of has discipled our men more than the seven pillars material. Because we're getting to the core of our lives. I mean, what's more intimate than our human sexuality? Right.

Yeah.

Or the mismanagement of that and the shame that comes with that. So for me, struggling in this Area of my life, I always thought I was kind of on God's plan B. I was like, as a pastor, I thought God wasted a draft pick on me, you know, that, you know, I just was a second tier and never enough. And that's part of the enemy's lie. The great, you know, God chose in advance to adopt us through Christ, fully anticipated our human mistakes in error. And this is where I have such great respect for Dr. Ted Roberts and Diana and the courage they had years ago to start helping people and them and so many others that were elevating this conversation and putting tools and resources like Dr. Patrick Carnes and those that have helped. They're really been a gift to our world and our society. And I just want to be one of thousands of voices that help push that forward, forward to help our community of faith become healthy.

And we are thankful to have you as a part of our team. Definitely. You are a huge piece of what we do. And we thank you for that, Rodney, for sure. Okay, so you kind of touched on this in your intro. We've talked about it a little bit. That pure desire and our ministry has a clinical counseling approach. They talk about the neurochemistry and they talk about how that has a play, has a part in our freedom and healing and. And that in some ways. And it's interesting, I had a conversation even this morning about it with somebody that. That could turn some churches and some pastors off because it can feel like a secular approach. So what encouragement would you give to any churches or pastors out there who, you know, they're struggling with this part?

Well, to me, it's just clearly how you see the teachings of Jesus. You know, love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, with all your strength. I don't know if there's a much more holistic approach than what Jesus just shared. Yeah, that we're all. We're integrated beings. Integrity means the. It's the integration of how I take care of my body affects my mind. How I take care of my mind affects my spirit. It's all integrated. You know, I was my. My paradigm that I was kind of raised with is that the spiritual part of my life was only when I prayed, read the Bible or went to church. That was the spiritual part of my life. And all the other part of my life was unspiritual. Right. If this is the spiritual part, how I spent money, time, recreation, took care of my mind, my body, my sexuality, my relationships, those were all not seen as spiritual. So I had to read and pray and attend church more rather than learning how to integrate God in all areas of my life. So this is where I think holistic spirituality helps us see that God is not trying to just get us to pray and read our Bible. God's trying to get us to integrate the truth of scripture and the life of God. In my sexuality and how I manage my money, my time, my relationships, my gifts, it's whatever you do in word or deed dwell is under the Lord. It's this holistic approach. And, you know, the very institution that I was trained in were really anti psychology. They thought anything that had to do with the brain or the mind was secular, you know, and again, when we start making our faith secular versus Christian, it does that. That philosophical argument doesn't work its way out. We don't have Christian tacos and secular tacos. You know what I mean? We don't. We don't go hunting in Christian mountains versus secular mountains.

Yeah, right.

You know what I'm saying? So it doesn't work out that way. So how. How our mind works, how God designed our mind and things that affect our mind, this is really, I think, is what Paul was talking about in Romans that don't be conformed to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Your mind is a muscle and you can actually retrain your brain. And I think this is what metanoia or repentance means in scripture. It really is about changing the way we.

Yeah.

You know, so I. I don't think it holds a lot of water. When we look at the teachings of Jesus. This, this. It all comes together.

Yeah. What I like to say at our trainings, our events, is to say it when we look at the brain. We're looking at God's design. We're looking at how God made your brain to work and trying to understand how did sin or Satan hijack God's plan and God's design. And so it's affirming God's goodness and creation. And I love what you said, Rodney, about a holistic approach, because I find for so many people, their sexuality is like the one thing that is held out separately from their faith, that everything else makes sense and kind of fits together. But because they've never been trained to think biblically about their sexuality or heard about it much at church, it's like everything they do in their sexuality is off on the side from their faith, and we've got to integrate it. No, this is all connected. So because of that taboo nature of sex and sexual addiction, many pastors or church leaders may not know how to start the conversation or how to raise up leaders for a ministry like this. So what advice or encouragement would you give to someone, how to start the conversations in their church and how to develop leaders for this kind of ministry?

Well, first of all, I think I would say that if you're a pastor or you're a leader in your congregation or just an individual that maybe is filling the prompt to lead something like this, just know that what you're sensing is from God. In my opinion, that God is just tapping you on the shoulder just like he did Moses, saying, hey, do you want to join me in helping people who are in slavery find freedom? I don't know what a more sacred calling could be than join God in what God's doing. And this has been such a problem in our society and especially in our church. I think some of the statistics, what, 67% of men in evangelical churches struggle with sexual addiction. So 50% of clergy. So at some level, I think God's saying, I really want to help you guys. And the gospel is about transforming us, not just selling hell insurance, it's about transforming us here and now. So I would just say, if you're a pastor and maybe you have some negative history or you found yourself struggling with addiction, get the material and find a group and either seek some professional help, which Pure Desire has, that they have a clinical help where you can call, find someone safe in your tribe or your denomination where you can reach out to an elder or somebody that's there, but get a hold of some material where you can find some healing which will lead you to sobriety and to really a different way of managing this area of your life. And then I would say just be honest about being willing to help others, because Pure desire has such great tools and resources that you can facilitate groups and there's enough structure within the groups that you can become a facilitator and actually help lead others in this process of healing and wholeness. I think that's the beauty of the structured material, that it provides a great resource for people. But I would first say talk to your pastor, but realize that this may be a really hot or different button for your pastor. They may not welcome this conversation. It may trigger some of their own shame. So just as much as you could say, I want to help people, I really care. You know, we want to provide resources that are solid and that are, you know, we think are God honoring and very holistic that's how I would approach in doing that.

I think some of the best advice I got from Dr. Ted when we were starting this ministry at our church was he said, don't invite people to come who are struggling because no one wants to admit they're struggling and no one wants to come to that group. But he said, instead, invite people who want to help start a ministry to those who are struggling. Because even when we're struggling, for some reason, that gives us compassion for others who are struggling and we want to help them.

Yeah, that's so true. Exactly right. I think I heard Heather say this in our recent trip to Brazil, that one of the things that motivates us the most is when we do something on behalf of others, benefit. And I think that fits right into line. What you're talking about there, Nick, Starting a ministry to help other people. And that's a great way to go about it. And I think education is a big way churches can start. That's why I think every church can start with the Conquer series. Every church can say, we're going to host an educational approach. And I think what the Conquer series will do, it will ring so true in people's hearts. And I think that in itself will surface a lot of individuals, many individuals that will feel the call to help, to help more people in their congregations. Yeah, yeah.

I think when you're starting the conversation, it's so important that you phrase it as all of us, not those of you. Because inadvertently, I think when some churches preach on pornography or sexual sin, the message they send is, some of you are weirdos that are struggling with this. You know, get your act together and stop it, where that doesn't really help anybody. But if we start the conversation to say, hey, let's be honest, to just say we're all broken in some way in our sexuality, whether it's in our thinking or our acting or our past or our family of origin. We're broken. And so let's talk about God's plan for sexuality. Let's talk about how all of us need hope and healing in this area. Because when we talk about all of us, just what you said earlier, Rodney, the shame level goes way down, and everyone can receive it in a different way.

I think, you know, another thing too, in that is that don't set yourself up to be the superhero in the story. I think, you know, definitely the temptation is there to be, especially as a pastor, if you're in, you know, if you're a pastor in your church, you have this, like, external Pressure that you feel that you have to be some sort of like top tier, all star superhero in the realm of Christians. And the reality is you're just as messed up as everyone else. And honestly, this is what I'd say is just act like it. Like, stop trying to put this, you know, this different Persona on display when you're on stage or when you're in front of your congregation and just be a real person who has real struggles. And, you know, that's. Rodney, honestly, man, this is one of my favorite things about you, is that you just share your mess with people, that you're open about your struggles and your issues. You don't just dump it on people, but you. You share it in a way that it makes it easy to approach you because there's humility there and you understand you're not perfect. And when that understanding is there, it's so much easier to give grace to other people. And so that's one thing I admire about you and have seen, and I just appreciate that.

Yeah, well, I appreciate that, Trevor, But I'll have to say, you know, to be completely honest here, that I haven't always been that way. Even though I found sobriety in my journey of sexual addiction, I had a lot of shame in sharing my story. And it was like, kind of like, yeah, I found some healing, but I really don't want to talk about it. Right. And I think this is part of the challenge for pastors, too. They don't know, is it safe to share this part of my story? Are people going to look at me as. I remember taking my boys camping one time. They were just young guys, and we were camping and had a fire, and my boys said to me, they were just young guys. You know, they're in their 20s now, but they. Or maybe nine and six, you know, they said, dad, have. Have you ever looked at pornography? And I said, who wants more chili? You know, I mean, I totally changed the subject from answering the question saying, who wants more chili? I mean, what kind of answer is that? You know? And where did that come from? That come from? That came from shame that came from. Even though founding sobriety, what I should have said is, yes, I have. And it's very destructive. And it's not the better way because we start to bond to an act or a picture, and God made us to bond to a person. This is the wonderful part about marriage. But I said, who wants more chili? And so this is what I love about what our pure desire groups have done, is that they help us own Our story, I think. I mean, this is just my opinion, and I don't expect everybody to agree with this, and I thank God this is changing. But many individuals in legalistic churches have had to find their healing in organizations like aa because in AA groups, it was safe to be real and you could admit you didn't have it all together. But I think that's changing, and I'm really grateful. And I think AA is an extension of the Body of Christ in many, many ways. But what I'm trying to say is that I'm glad that the local church, now there's a new paradigm being offered, and it's really about vulnerability. It's about offering our story and seeing the beauty in that. And I've watched many in the Body of Christ really come to this transformation and then see the joy of helping others. I have men and women in our church that for them, pure desire is their ministry now. This is where they feel called to lead groups, and they feel like they're now discipling more people than ever because they've taken this material and they see it's far more than just sexuality. It's about helping people heal.

All right, so, Ronnie, you shared a little bit about your story and really just that shame. And I think all three of us have felt that. That as a pastor, there's tons of shame when it comes to admitting that you have problems. And being a pastor really is such a unique position in the church, one where, you know, men and women who are in that position feel like they can't share their junk, they can't share their struggles. There's a lot of shame. And so with that, in your opinion, what level of involvement should pastors have in a pure. In a purity ministry or a pure desire group ministry? How involved should pastors be?

Well, I'm not saying that for every pastor, this is the only area that we have to focus on to disciple people. I just think for years this has been one of the areas that literally millions of people in our world and just the statistics of how much money is spent on this industry, how much more even in the Bible Belt, than in what's called liberal areas of even just our country. Hey, this is a real issue. And again, I think that God is desiring to heal the church and to help us really transform right here and right now, instead of just taking a set of beliefs and proclaiming those, but not helping people walk toward freedom. So I think if a pastor doesn't lead a group, at least finding a champion in their congregation, that Does. Maybe it's another staff member. I'm not our lead pastor here, but I have a lot of encouragement from our lead pastor that he's really grateful that we have groups and tools to help people heal. So if pastors can do it, though, I think what they give their congregation is a real gift. If they could own their negative sexual history, whatever that is, or they could say, you know, my brokenness looked different than this. But I think we're all addicted to our way of thinking this is the universal sin and that God has come to restore all of us. So even if this isn't your arena of brokenness, the principles that are there are so positive and so helpful. I think it's a great discipleship tool. And so lead the way or find someone to do it well.

And, Nick, you were a lead pastor for what, 14 years, and you were in ministry and then a lead pastor for over a decade, and you were involved. What was your experience as a lead pastor?

Yeah, I think in my experience, it was where my healing became also my church's healing. So we were able to go through a process, my wife and I, where we found some healing by going to a group a half hour away to be a part of a group and then to bring that back to share what God had been doing. And I still encourage pastors that way that if this needs to be your healing, to lean into that. But more often than not, you need to do it somewhere outside of your current context, because if you're trying to get healthy with the very people you're caught up in, trying to act the part and be the pastor, it's so hard to figure all that out in one group. And so it's not being inauthentic to go and get some distance from for yourself first, where you're a few steps further down the road, and then you can bring it back to your church. And what I would say, from my experience, I did not feel ready to start that in my church because I thought I needed a lot more healing. But I asked Ted Roberts about it, and I said, man, I'm only 10 months into this or a year. Am I ready? And he's like, yeah, you'll never feel ready. But bringing it to your church and being open is the next stage in your healing. And so I would just encourage any pastor listening that if this is a part of your story of brokenness, lean into it and let God redeem it. But do it with this idea that he might. What he wants to do in you will become what he wants to do through you. Because I would say, bar none, it was the most powerful thing we ever did in our church to minister to men and women. And it simply started by letting God do a work in our lives and then watching it spill out into the rest of our congregation.

Yeah, yeah, I think that's great advice, Nick. And hopefully people can, within their faith, community, leadership structure, denomination, whatever it is, there's some really good safe people that they can process. And another benefit of Pure Desire is, is that they partner with denominations and networks to provide this kind of resource for the clergy so they can get help and then the clergy can self discover. Can I continue to serve or do I really need to take a break and really focus on this aspect of my life? Because maybe, maybe there's a lot more there than just what we would think. And so they need to do some deep work. That's really the best gift you're going to give yourself. And the kingdom of God and humanity is focusing on your own healing first. And I think we can't reiterate this enough. For some, stepping out might be the right thing and it's going to be okay because we just trust that God's got resource and provision for you and you're actually going to help yourself, your family and actually the world is going to be better for you just loving yourself enough to take care of yourself and know that you're worth it, you know, and for some they can get help and continue maybe to lead and you know, but they're definitely something that should be evaluated and looked at and get some good advice as you move forward on that. Yeah.

And so Rodney's talking about the Pure Desire leaders program that we have and we'll make sure that more information on that is in the show notes for this episode. But another thing I wanted to add really quick guys, just about the pastors involvement is I would say to pastors, you know, be aware that you don't need to be the quarterback of this team, that you can hand it off and let guys and gals lead those groups. And it's probably going to be for the benefit of your church if you continue to delegate this, develop leaders and release them to do frees you up in some ways. But also it's discipling and leadership development and training for your church. So just be aware that you don't have to be the QB under center all the time that you can hand this off and let your team and the church really do it.

Yeah, I agree.

Well Rodney, we've been so grateful to have you with us. And we like to end all of our episodes kind of along the same lines, just to ask about some final advice or encouragement. And so for you, Rodney, what encouragement would you have for pastors who might be listening and are facing some of these hurdles or challenges in bringing a purity ministry or bringing Pure Desire to their church? What encouragement would you give them here at the end?

Well, I would simply say go on the website PureDesire.org take a look at the resources that are being offered. Take a look at the Conquer series about taking an educational approach to churches. Find a university that's going to be in your area and attend a Pure Desire university. You know, we all, many of us go to conferences and trainings all year long. This is a fabulous training to attend and it's a great way to educate yourself about, I think, really providing a real healthy resources for our churches and our communities. Or maybe you would even be brave enough to say, hey, let's host a training at our church. Let's contact Pure Desire and do a Pure Desire university here. So I would just say start educating yourself. And I really recommend Pure Desire as a great resource because of its holistic approach and its faith based approach.

Yeah. And you know, I would kind of piggyback off that and I would say if, you know, if you're a pastor or a church leader, go onto our website and look on our groups page. We have the churches listed that have groups and reach out to those pastors and ask them honestly what their opinion is. I mean, you know, talk to them about what it's like, what their experience has been with bringing a purity ministry to their church and just what that process was like for them. I think it'll normalize maybe the process a little bit for you, but will also help give you kind of the framework for really the thought process of how to even get this going. And it may, you know, it may be something that is really helpful to just get someone who isn't on staff or is a regional group leader with Pure Desire and someone who is technically unaffiliated but is still, you know, doing the ministry in their church. So maybe reach out to those people.

Yeah, and it's another great thing about Pure Desire is they do have those regional group leaders. So as you launch groups, they've got some great people you can contact, email, call and say, okay, here I go, and they'll walk with you and help you begin to establish something there. But I just would say listen to the spirit. I would say listen to the promptings in the conversations, in the things that come your way. I really think this is something that God desires to do more than we could even imagine. And so I would just say have the courage to say yes to this and just take a simple step. That's what's the next right thing to do in front of you. And that's kind of been my approach. What's the next thing? Okay, you want me to start a group? Great. Okay, you want me to hand this group off to this person? Great. What's the next thing in front of you? And just to keep taking steps. I think it's a journey of faith, and this is a great area to be partnering and being a part of people's healing.

Yeah. I think my final encouragement would be a reminder that this struggle is not a respecter of persons or of ages or of genders. And so you will not believe who this will impact in your church, because I can guarantee you that if you have no ministry for sexual purity in your church right now, there are men and women desperately in need of it. And some of them are the people you would least expect. And it's because they have learned so well how to hide the shame and to play the game. And they don't even mean to maybe play the game, but they know how to do the spiritual thing and the church thing and hide all the rest of it. But if you can open the door and you can make your church a safe place to be real and to be broken and to find healing, it will shock you, some of the people you will help. And when you see that happening, that's the day you realize that this was needed more than you ever imagined. And I've just watched that happen over and over. And so that's why I can say with a lot of confidence, you will never believe who this is going to impact. But if you'll take that step of faith and be courageous to open the door, the people God will lead through will be transformed, and it will transform your church. So go for it.

Yeah, completely, Nick. And this is where you know, this is the heart of God, the Trinity. We were made for relationships, and we heal in relationships. And this is why the group format of face to face relationships, I love it because in group we pray, in group we share. You just don't have time and space to do that at an altar at the end of a service. We need to connect with people. This is what we're made to do. And so this is where the group format really provides a safe place. The Groups are confidential. They're a safe place for people to be real. And I'm telling you, it's just to me, it's the front row seat. To me, group is church. This is what the kingdom of God is about. It's about knowing and being known. And this is a place Pure Desire groups, seven Pillar Betrayal and Beyond, eight Pillar Women's Groups. This is a place where we can see that happening.

Yeah. Amen. All right. Though we recorded this episode over four years ago, the truths still apply today. We're working really hard at Pure Desire to change the culture in the church to make the topics of sexual brokenness, addiction, and betrayal trauma really commonplace. That it's a commonplace thing to discuss and address in houses of worship. And so we have hurting people out there. And we know that we need to work to make our churches a safe place to help those in need. We so appreciate Rodney and his time. But remember, wherever you're at in your journey, Pure Desire is here to help create a road map for your healing view or someone you know is impacted by sexual brokenness or betrayal trauma. Go to PureDesire.org and let's start the healing journey today. Don't forget to subscribe to the podcast. Each week we put out new content to help you on the road to healing and freedom. And lastly, never stop being healthy.