238 - Barriers To Sexual Intimacy w/ Dr. Juli Slattery

You're listening to the Pure Desire Podcast, your safe place to find hope, healing, and freedom from sexual addiction, betrayal, and relationship issues. Hey, hey, hey. I'm your host for today only, Justin Watson, and you are listening to episode 238 of the Pure Desire Podcast. Here with me, as is usually on the podcast is is co host Nick Stembo.

Cleveland Rocks.

It's a sports thing that I only understand, I think, because of our episode today.

Isn't Cleveland Rocks from. It's from an old sitcom, the one that Drew Carey was on.

Yes.

They would say Cleveland Rocks, I think was part of their radio station thing. And I never actually watched it. I just.

Was it just called Drew Carey.

I thought it was something in Cleveland. There was the Drew Carey.

You're right. You're right. I remember that now.

Cleveland rocks is just kind of of a phrase known for the city of Cleveland.

Sure.

Which is where the connection. That is where today's guest is from. Julie Slattery is from the Cleveland, Ohio area.

Yes. Today we had Dr. Julie Slattery on the podcast, and she was awesome. I've only experienced her through our Sexual Integrity 101 content, but beyond that, don't have a ton of experience with her. But now I realize I need to read every one of her books and watch everything she's ever done. But Dr. Julie Slattery is a clinical psychologist, author, and speaker with more than 25 years of counseling, discipling, and teaching experience. She is a recognized expert in biblical truth and sexuality with degrees from Wheaton College and Biola University as an Ms. And psy. D. Is that how you say that?

I know she has her doctorate.

She has her doctorate.

That's a fancy way of saying that.

She's a former co host of the Focus on the Family broadcast. She co founded Authentic Intimacy with Linda Dillo. Julie has been married since 1994 and is a mother of three sons. So we had her on the podcast and she was awesome.

Yeah, we. We love Julie and as you'll hear in the episode, why she just is such a great voice at speaking into marriages and into some of those aspects of marriages that we don't always talk about where it comes to sex and sexual intimacy. And that was really the focus of our conversation, is helping couples understand how they can grow in sexual intimacy. Maybe particularly if it's an area that's just not been something they've known how to talk about or address. Really helping couples move beyond just physical connection to having that deeper intimacy that we talk about a lot on the podcast. And yeah, it was a great episode. Really appreciate her.

Yeah. So we are going to get into the episode in just a moment, but before we do, just a few things. First, subscribe to the podcast. If you're not already subscribed, please do it. You will not regret it. You will love your life a lot more if you do that. You can find us on all major platforms that you would normally watch. Podcasts, listen to podcasts, whatever you do, subscribe, follow us on social media. You can follow us on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram @ PureDesirePDMI, or if you liked video content, check us out on YouTube by searching for Pure Desire Ministries. And lastly, Nick, we don't want to forget about the summit coming up in September.

Yeah. We want to encourage people to begin thinking about and making plans for the 2022 summit. There's a great lineup of speakers coming together, which includes speaker announcement here. Drum roll, please. Dr. Julie Slattery is one of the.

No way she's going to be there.

She is going to be there in person.

I'm going to be there, too.

Keynote speaker or Justin. And we promise, well, we hope Trevor will be back. Who, incidentally, listeners are probably wondering, like, where is Trevor? Trevor is home with his family. Sickness is making the rounds there and we just, we needed to get another episode recorded and couldn't keep. We've postponed a number of them. So, Trevor, your family get better, come back. We love having you as a part of this.

I don't mind being the understudy to Trevor Winslow.

Yeah, yeah. It's great to sit in with you today. So all that to say, I expect by September he'll be totally healthy, too. But we're really excited to have Julie Slattery with us as one of the speakers. And I think it just underscores the significance of the summit that we want this to be an annual gathering point, a rallying cry for anyone who's walked through a Pure Desire group or is in that process. Just to come to feel encouraged, to feel like you're a part of something, to meet others. And whether you're doing that virtually joining from maybe your own home or gathering with others in your city, or coming and being a part of the event out here with us in Troutdale, that's just outside of Portland, it's going to be a great weekend. So you can go to our website and get signed up. I think there's early bird registration happening now, so don't miss an opportunity to come hang out with us and with Dr. Julie Slattery.

Yeah, it's going to be a super good time. Last year's was super fun. Lots of great content, lots of great time with people who care about the same things, are like minded and are going in the same direction. So lots of encouragement and just a catalytic kind of an event for people in their journey. So you can go to PureDesire.org summit22 and register today again to get early bird pricing. All right, here is our conversation with Dr. Julie Slattery on barriers to sexual intimacy in marriage.

Julie, welcome back to the podcast. Thanks for being with us again.

Always good to be with you. Thanks for having me.

Yeah. Well, we're excited to have you back on with us today and feel like we're getting to have a conversation with someone that's an expert in areas that are really important to us, marriage and relationships. And then also the point of today's episode, really understanding and defining sexual intimacy and what that looks like for couples, especially couples in recovery, to grow in that area. An area that can be very difficult, can be messy, challenging, multi layered. And so we're just looking to Julie today to bring us some insights into this area. So no small task, right, Julie?

That's right. Yeah. We'll tackle it together.

Good. Well, let's just start with kind of setting the stage here, helping people understand what we're talking about. How would you define that phrase, sexual intimacy?

Well, I think we've got to contrast it to what most people experience, which is sexual activity. Sexual activity is what happens when our bodies experience sexual pleasure or a sexual encounter. Sexual intimacy is when our bodies are involved, but so much more is involved, where it's a relational journey of getting to know each other well, a foundation of trust. Yes. Enjoying the pleasure of sex, but doing so in a context where it's really rooted in a deeper relationship. So that's how I define that. That phrase.

Yeah. So important, I think, especially in today's culture that does define anything with the word sex is more just about the activity. And I love that phrase, by the way, distinguishing between intimacy and just activity. And we've talked about this on the podcast before, that many couples will substitute those words and feel like, well, hey, we've, we've got a great relationship. And they're. What they're referring to is they're very sexually active. And yet under the surface you can find out that one partner or the other is feeling very unfulfilled, unconnected. Yes, there's some frequency to their physical engagement, but there's not that, as you talk about that level of engagement at a soul level, a personhood being known and knowing the other person. And I think that's what we hope, as listeners walk through this with us today, is they'll get a sense of how could they move from simply thinking of sexual activity to really growing in sexual intimacy.

Yeah, it's true. I think there are couples that probably have been married for 15, 20 years, and when they really start to understand the difference, they might come away from it saying, I don't think we've ever experienced sexual intimacy. It's always just been about what our bodies are doing and whether or not it is pleasurable. But we're really not sharing the journey or never have been really taught what that even looks like.

Yeah, that phrase, activity versus intimacy, you know, it just shows that action doesn't equal knowledge and understanding, you know, and so if intimacy is knowing someone, knowing something very deeply, just because you're naked with them in a bed doesn't mean that you necessarily know them. You may know them more intimately than other people, but not necessarily to. You can't necessarily equate that as being sexual intimacy. So that was. That's super good. You're already blowing my mind on this podcast. But, you know, for many couples, sex can be a really challenging topic. It can be really. I mean, I know when my wife and I first got married, I don't know what it was, but she just had this innate something where after we would have sex, she would want to talk about it. And that threw me off. I was not comfortable with that. I didn't understand it, and she was just really. Just naturally wanted to move into that. But it can be really difficult. As was modeled by me, it was really difficult to then talk about what just happened. You know, let's just forget it now. We're done. Right. And so why can this be such an intense area of conversation for couples?

Yeah, I think for a few reasons. First of all, we have no experience in how to talk about sex appropriately. Sure, you could stream any program, and there's sexual content, there's joking about sex. But to have a conversation that expresses feelings, that expresses appropriate desires, fears, we don't know what that looks like. What words do you use? What's appropriate to share? Most couples are starting with, I don't even know where we start the conversation. But then also, you add to that that God has designed sex to be this act that's tied into the deepest parts of who we are emotionally and spiritually, which means that sex for most of us represents really deep aspects of Our humanity, it taps into shame and rejection and fears and desires and longings and. And we might not even know how to put words to those feelings. But then when you try to communicate about sex, you're going to end up saying something that triggers your spouse that you didn't realize. So the average couple, even navigating the differences in desire, when one of them initiates sex and the other one says, verbally or non. Verbally, no, not tonight. You might have just triggered feelings of, I'm always objectified. My husband doesn't love me, he just wants my body.

And.

And on the other hand, feelings of rejection of, I put myself out there only to get rejected by my wife. I thought that in marriage this was going to be safe for me. So just that simple interchange, that is a normal thing that a couple will need to talk through can represent, like, a torrent of baggage from the past and fears. And so once that happens a few times, I think most of us just learn it's better not to talk about it, and we stay stuck in activity instead of moving towards intimacy.

Yeah. When I think about how in every relationship, people bring their entire history with them and whether that's abuse, negative sexual experiences, ways that culture has shaped their thinking, movies, the friends they had in high school and college and through puberty, just so many ideas that develop internally that we probably haven't ever processed with someone else. And then we get married to another person that brings their own background of all those things. And because we tend to not talk about it, there is just an expectation of, well, it'll just work. And if you've got two people bringing very different backgrounds or expectations, when it doesn't align, I think it quickly goes for the couple or either individual to that feeling, well, what's wrong with me? Or what's wrong with us? Because we are kind of given a model from culture. Well, this should just be natural and easy. And what we see in movies, it just happens and no one talks about it. And everyone thinks it's a great experience when in reality there's a lot that goes into it. And so just having the conversations is so valuable. But as you're bringing up Julie can create a lot of conflict as those expectations and misalignment really come to the surface.

Yeah, Nick, you're right. Nobody goes into marriage with a blank slate on this topic. And we think we do. We think even if we have a history in the past, or maybe it's a second marriage, I get to start over. And in essence, you kind of do. But that doesn't mean that all the shame, all the experiences, all the fears don't come with you and shape the way you view yourself and view your spouse and view sexuality. And when we don't have tools to even understand that for ourselves, not to even mention communicate that with one another, it really. It really does become a landmine that most couples don't know how to navigate.

You know, it's funny, is my wife asking me. There were a lot of times I just didn't understand, like, why do you want to talk about this? But then if something didn't go to plan, I wouldn't want to talk about it, but I would definitely be angry. And she would experience all of that. Right. So I was just. I'm listening, and I'm just realizing, while I might not have wanted to talk about it, good or bad, if something didn't, you know, pan out the way I had envisioned this might pan out. You know, there were moments where I was often angry, and then she was left even more confused. And, you know, where if I had answered the question I had learned to talk about it, I could have expressed, hey, this is what I'm feeling right now, why I'm angry or why I'm frustrated, or my anger is actually just me covering up how I feel worthless right now for whatever reason, you know, So I can see why there's tons of conflict from that perspective, too, and just find that to be an interesting irony there.

Yeah. And if we haven't been given the language for how to talk about that or the context, like, most of us grew up and just never talked about sex. And so then when it does come up in marriage, where we. We're kind of like people trying to learn a second language, I don't really know what to say or how to express what I'm feeling because I never have before. So, Julie, we're kind of getting into it, but when it comes to sexual intimacy, there's definitely barriers that couples are facing. So in. In your work and experience, what do you think are the most significant barriers to couples experiencing true sexual intimacy?

I think one of the hugest barriers that we don't often recognize is that we think about sex wrongly and we define what is a great sex life with the wrong view. Whether it's a simplistic. It's just about our bodies experiencing pleasure together, or it's legalistic. Like, we have a good sex life as long as nobody's cheating on each other. And so we have such a limited view of what sex is supposed to Be that we don't know how to navigate the complexity, complexity of it. And so I think that's a big barrier. It's one that I certainly experienced in marriage. And I think both the secular culture and the church culture continues to reinforce a very simplistic view of sexuality without giving us a context or paradigm that helps us make sense of why sex is so difficult, why it's so threatening, why it evokes so much shame, why it's so difficult to talk about. So that's one that I think most of us are navigating. And then you add on to it what really has become normal barriers for most couples of exposure to pornography. Learning about sex in the context of me being a consumer. I get what I need, I get what I want without understanding the patients and the communication that's required with sexual intimacy, Then you add onto it things like trauma, sexual trauma, which has impacted so many men and women. And the impact of even one incident of sexual trauma can really create just waves of confusion and grief and guilt and even your body not being able to respond. Well, those are a few of them. There are so many more I could mention. But when people ask me what's normal for a couple in sexual intimacy, I will say it's normal to encounter barriers. That's the norm, not the exception. I think when we level set and say, you are going to have to learn to navigate some difficult, difficult things, that's part of the journey. It really helps couples maybe have a different expectation than they started marriage with.

Yeah, well, it feeds into the idea, I think, that anything really worth having does take work. And we maybe haven't thought about that in terms of sexual intimacy because we feel like, as we've said, we'll get married, it'll just happen, it'll be great, we'll both love it. And yet very often that's not the experience, or even if it is initially for some couples in that newly married phase, they improve. They maybe have some of the experiences they thought, but over time, they're. They're not being as fulfilled and they start to wonder, you know, what happened, what went wrong. And rather than seeing it as a journey, as something that might take work, we just can quickly turn to, well, maybe there's something wrong with the other person or the relationship, as opposed to what you just said. If we could adopt a mindset that says no, there, there will be barriers, there will be challenges, there will be things that we have to work through. And that's because this is a wonderful, beautiful thing that is worth working on and growing in. And if we have that mindset, I think we're just going to approach those challenges differently.

Yeah, I was thinking, as far as barriers, I was thinking about our theology. You know, we're often. Our theology, what we're taught in church is that, you know, it's about a spiritual connection to God, and our bodies are often left kind of in the dust back here, even though the Bible says that we're made in the image of God, and that includes very much our bodies. And there are, you know, plenty of scriptures where, you know, we can, you know, that God knows the number of hairs on our heads, that he knit us together in our mother's wombs. When you think of these, like, our body and what we do with our body is equally as spiritual as praying and as reading our Bible and learning about God and engaging with God and so bringing God into that conversation, that's a bit of a shift we need to make in that regard as well, I think. So on that note, you know, when we talk about shifts that need to be made, what are some important mental shifts that you would say, Julie, are shifts that women primarily need to make in their sex lives, and we'll get to the men in a minute. But what are some things that you specifically think that if women could start to make these mental shifts, there would be a lot of movement forward for women in their sex lives?

Yeah, I think one of the mental shifts that a lot of women need to make is they need to get out of the thinking that sex is primarily for men and for a man's pleasure within a church context. There are a lot of wives who have adopted this message of, well, if it's not good for me, that's okay. I just need to meet my husband's needs, I need to serve him. And they settle for that form of dynamic in their sexual relationship. They may even feel that this is how they keep their husband from falling. And so they take on the pressure that if I don't perform sexually for my husband, if I'm not available all the time, he's going to turn back to pornography or he's going to be more tempted to have an affair. And so that kind of thinking is really not biblical thinking. I think it comes from, again, a very simplistic understanding of one passage in First Corinthians 7, but it doesn't look at the whole context of what the scripture teaches about marriage and sexual love. I rather have women think about sex in terms of, this is a gift for both of you. Both the husband and wife are told by God to minister to each other sexually. That includes a husband awakening a wife's sexual desire and prioritizing her pleasure and her involvement and not settling for, well, this is just about me. So I think that's a huge shift that women need to make. Another shift which also applies to something that husbands need to think differently about. This is a journey. It's not an event. It's not about what's happening right now. It's not about how good the sex is. It's about, are we learning to love each other more deeply because of our journey of sexual intimacy? This actually gives a lot of hope for couples that are in a bad spot related to sexual intimacy. It could be that sex right now for you represents loss because you're struggling with infertility. Sex isn't fun. It's not connecting. It represents man. We're trying to conceive and we can't. It's disappointing. Or it could be that sex right now is a very deep place in your healing journey where it's triggering memories from the past. And if you only have the view that sex is about what's happening in the moment, you're going to get really discouraged and you're going to want to give up. But if you see, no, this is actually a journey where God is inviting you to share intimately, not just the good parts, but the grief, the sadness, the struggles, then couples can come through even the valleys related to this journey, saying, hey, I wouldn't want to go through that again. But we are so more closely knit together because of what we've walked through that journey. Perspective, again, really gives purpose and hope through some of the difficulties that a lot of couples are going to walk through at some point in their sexual journey.

Yeah, I love that so much because of how it relates to God's invitation to all of us to be in that lifelong, monogamous commitment to our spouse. It really brings that freedom of the journey mindset that says, if things don't go great tonight, we'll be here tomorrow and the next day, like, we've got each other and we've got a lifetime to spend working on this. And so if we're in the midst of a time that's hard or not going the way we wanted, having that mindset that says we're in this together for the long haul, and who knows what could happen a month from now or a year from now or a decade from now compared to where we're at now if we both stay committed to that journey and walking this road together.

Yeah. And I'd even add to that, Nick. It's not just the hope that this could get better, but God is doing something even in the bad right now. So. So I don't even know. Your own personal journey as you work through struggles or the struggle of pornography, you look back at what God did in your marriage through that vulnerability, through that honesty, through the need for both of you to learn to love unselfishly. Like, it's not just that things got better, but it's that God actually redeemed the pain. And, you know, that's. That's a word that a lot of couples need to hear, because right now they've lost hope and they don't see anything good happening. But God promises to redeem everything that surrendered to him, and that includes that sexual journey.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, we've heard couples shared on this podcast where they'll say, we. We wouldn't change. If we could go back, we wouldn't change anything. You're like, what. There was, you know, there was abuse or there was an affair. There was the addiction. Like, yeah, but what God did because of that brought us to a place of intimacy, connection, purpose that we would have never discovered any other way. And they're really speaking from that place of experiencing it. So for the listener that maybe is in the midst of some of the hard stuff and the pain, it's okay if you don't believe that right now. It's okay if you don't even feel that right now. But taking courage from what Julie says, and many, many couples have shared, God's at work, and he is going to redeem the pain. And if you can hold on to that, even just in faith, say, I'm not seeing it or feeling it, but I. I believe he can and he will. That could be enough to get you through this season that you're in. Well, let's go to the flip side, then. How about for men? What do you see in terms of men making this shift and having a healthier perspective on sexual intimacy? What would you want to say to all the men that are going to listen to this?

Yeah, you know, just like I would encourage women to value their husband's sexual desire and sexual drive because it serves a purpose, I would say the same is true for your wife's desire and drive to have emotional and spiritual connection with you. So, Justin, you were sharing that. Your wife is like, hey, let's talk about what just happened. And what your wife is doing is she's inviting you into another aspect of intimacy. And for a lot of guys, that's very uncomfortable, particularly related to sexual issues. Or it's like, why do we need to talk about it? We just did it. Like, what's the purpose of that? But. But your wife is prompting you to go deeper. And it's not just for her. It's not just for the sake of connecting to her, checking that emotional box. But God will use the influence of your wife to make you more multidimensional in how you view sex, how you view that journey. So really encouraging husbands not to just see, oh, no, she wants to talk again, or she wants to connect before you have, but to see that as an invitation for you to become really a more integrated person. I think men tend to compartmentalize their sexuality more than women do and say, this is a separate part of my life. It's an important part, but it's really not connected to my spiritual walk. It's really not connected to my feelings or my past. And God can really use your wife to be prompting you to start integrating those pieces.

It's funny, as you said that, I was just thinking the only time growing up that, you know, it was brought up, you know, that somebody wanted to talk about anything like that was if I had done something I wasn't supposed to have done. You know, so when my wife asks me after we're, you know, we just had sex, like, let's talk about that. It's like, what did I do wrong? What did we do? Like, was I, you know, was I with this or was I that? Did I not that? You know, And I start to fill in the blanks. But you're right, she's really, in her own way, knowing or unknowing, she's trying. She's redeeming that for me and bringing that conversation into a safe, healthy place for me. And we've had some beautiful conversations because of her tenacity in that way. Yeah, that's really good. Thanks for saying that.

And I think I would want to just reiterate what you already shared, Julie, as it comes to men, to say, we need to recognize that our wives are also sexual beings and have sexual needs. You know, and you mentioned First Corinthians 7, which I think is a great passage, when we remember that it was written to both men and women, that both are to be responsible to look out for the needs and the desire and the pleasure of the other. And it's a huge mistake if we think that's for women to do, because it's to meet men's needs and somehow excuse ourselves. That as men, we need to say, and I love what you said, to even awaken that desire in your wife, to think about when you're at year five or 15 or 40 in your marriage. How do I continue to woo my wife? How do I continue to look to bring romance into our relationship, to communicate to her her value and beauty and worth? And because those are all things that awaken in her, a desire for deeper connection and physical intimacy. And, you know, my wife and I have talked about it a lot, just the ways we tend to pursue connection differently, that when I feel the need for connection, I tend to pursue the physical. I'm looking for sex when she's hungry for connection. She's looking for conversation, a walk, talking about our feelings, our day. And to me, some of that's like, you know, whatever, we'll get to it. But if I adopt a First Corinthians 7 mindset, for me, I can say, no, this is part of meeting her needs, that it's not just the activity of having sex. It's what creates in her connection and a desire for sex. And obviously, I don't want to get into a place where I'm just, you know, trying to manipulate the situation to get to sex. If my heart is just getting to sex and I really don't care, well, then I'm. I'm violating a whole bunch of other biblical principles. But. But if I see that no, this is part of my role as a husband is to awaken in her desire to help her feel valued and cared for, then I think it's. It just puts me in a different place of saying, what can I do to grow in sexual intimacy in our marriage? And it's not about being better at the physical act of sex. It's about understanding how I connect with my wife's heart and help her come alive to the kind of connection that leads to sexual intimacy.

Absolutely. And I think we tend to read First Corinthians 7 again, only for the person who has the higher desire. So whether it's a husband or wife that desires sex more, the other person feels like, well, okay, I have to meet that need. And, yeah, that's some part of the application. But if you only apply it that way, it's unbalanced, like you're saying, Nick. It's also for the other spouse to say, how can I minister to my. To my, the one I love? Even in seasons of abstaining sexually, which, 1st Corinthians 7 gives a reason for where you together say, for the purpose of prayer and seeking God for healing, even we're going to say no to sex for a time so that we can move from activity to intimacy. And I really do believe for some couples, they need to stop being sexually active for a while until they can learn to be sexually intimate. And if it's always focused on, okay, you know, we've got to do it three times a week. Check this box. They're not learning to communicate, they're not learning to connect, they're not learning to touch in a non sexual way. And so for some couples, you need to back up and rebuild based on a paradigm of intimacy.

That's good. So how can couples begin removing the barriers that are currently in the way? How can they start making these shifts from sexual activity to sexual intimacy?

Yeah, I think first of all, it's getting the vision for it. So if you don't know what's wrong, you don't know what to fix. And I would say the vast majority of couples, they've just settled for what they've always known and they didn't know that there was more. And, you know, one thing I like to challenge people with is, you know, yes, God cares a lot about sexual morality, but he also cares about your sexual maturity. And you should be growing in maturity as a married couple. And if you're not, if you're like, hey, we're pretty much in the same spot we were five years ago, something's wrong with that. Even if there's not sin involved, you're not maturing and growing. And so I think it begins with that vision of, wow, there's more to this. Like, we don't have to stay stuck where we are. I think a second step is, and for some people, this sounds weird, but really inviting God into their sexual intimacy, inviting him through prayer, acknowledging his presence, that he created this, that was his idea, that he's very concerned about healing our wounds and teaching us to love each other. Well. And then I think it's. It really is a journey of discipleship. One of the things that we talk a lot about at our ministry is this idea of sexual discipleship, that sexuality is an ongoing journey of learning what it looks like to surrender more of this aspect of my life and my marriage to the lordship of Jesus Christ. And so like any form of discipleship, it means learning, it means identifying lies that we've believed. It means healing through wounds. It means growing in character. And that is a lifelong journey that I think can be really exciting for couples. When they get a glimpse for of it. Because it's not just getting rid of the bad. It's actually moving towards redemption and wholeness.

I remember early on when my wife and I were leading groups for Pure desire at our local church, and she was walking with a group of women through the betrayal material. And in one of the homework responses, she said something about sex being fun. And a gal in the group just stopped and interrupted. She's like, oh, I wish sex was fun. And it was kind of this thought of. I'd never even thought about sex being fun, and what would that look like? And I think for this woman and the group, that was the starting place, as you said, Julie, having a vision of what would it look like if sexual intimacy in my marriage was fun? What would I need? What would define that? What would create that kind of environment? What would make me feel less inhibited with my spouse and more valued, and creating an environment that's fun. And even just believing that God would want our sexual intimacy as a married couple to be fun and exciting, something we look forward to. So I would encourage couples that are in a place where there's a lot of struggle or just disconnect. Ask yourself that question of what would it take to have a sexual intimacy in my marriage that was fulfilling, fun, interesting, like, whatever word helps you. And then just start to think through what that environment might be. Because I think if you have a vision for it, you can start to move in that direction. Or at a minimum, you can go to people that understand this area well and ask for their help to say, how do I get to this place? Because that's not where our marriage is right now.

It seems like everything you're mentioning is all about intentional moments and really just pausing, taking time. And, you know, I feel like I've brought up my wife and I a lot. But like, whenever, you know, when we've had moments where things aren't ticking, you know, there have been many moments where I completely blew it and didn't recognize it. But there have also been some moments where I realized in the moment, something doesn't seem right right now. Whether that's with me and I'm projecting that, or whether that's with Abigail, whatever it is, and then pausing and asking that question. I remember one time specifically where, call it the Holy Spirit, I don't know. There was just this intuition I had, something's off right now. And I didn't realize it, but my wife had been dealing with some loss that she was processing, and she had been, you Know, all of this stuff came into that moment. And she didn't obviously mean to. She didn't. And that wasn't the intention, but, like, we were like. It felt like the train had just stopped, you know, and picking up on that. And then instead of trying to, you know, push the train physically, you know, through the station, it was like, that's a terrible analogy to use right now, I feel like. But instead of, like, continuing forward and trying to just push through so I could get mine, I stopped, paused, asked her, and we had this moment where it was like, okay, we're not doing this now. Like, there's something else that we need to do right now, and that's. We need to talk about what you're processing. Because she was processing, you know, some loss and things like that. And it was just a really meaningful time. But that couldn't have happened if there wasn't an intentional moment where we stopped and paused and had that moment. That's what it sounds like. You're really. Everything could be boiled down to here.

Yeah. A journey is just a series of moments like that. So one moment is good, but really to change the momentum requires intentionality and many moments of prayer and conversation, intimacy, making time for it, getting the help you need and the resources you need. Because we have so much bad thinking around sexuality that we need to be inundated with truth to really recognize how we think about sex the wrong way.

Well, and if I hadn't taken that moment, I probably would have walked away thinking it was me and there was something that I had done wrong. You know, something was off with me, and I would have felt, you know, all of those things and had been angry, like I mentioned earlier.

Well, and as I hear you say that, it's the reminder, don't beat yourself up if you don't get it all figured out in those moments. If you're starting to lean into this idea of sexual intimacy as a couple and starting to have some of those conversations being more open. And it may lead initially to more messiness or more pain or more frustration. Like, well, wait a minute. I didn't know you felt all those things. And now I have to deal with that. Like, don't get down about the process, because that's, I think, what Julie, you're saying about the journey. Journeys have ups and downs. Journeys have moments where things are going smoothly and well and quickly, and other times where it's slow going and whatever season you're in, I think to just be present there, learn the lessons there, to keep growing with One another. That's. That's what it's all about.

Yeah, you're absolutely right, Nick. A lot of couples will say, hey, we tried that. We tried talking about it turned into this big fight. And what we need to realize is that we never do something well until we're first willing to do it poorly. And that relates to this. If you've never talked about sex before, the first conversations are going to be clumsy, and there might be conflict, and you might need to say, hey, can we have a timeout and have a few days to process by ourselves or even reach out to a third party to help us? But taking that step is important, and eventually you will. You will grow in your comfort level and your awareness of how to navigate these conversations in a way that really is edifying and healing well.

And if it turns into a big fight, that's an indication you're probably doing something right, not that you're doing something wrong. It's an indication there's stuff there that needs to get processed, that needs to come up, that needs to be heard by your spouse or by you. And so it's obviously not fun for any of us to have a big fight in our marriage, especially over sexual intimacy. But if that happens, take it as a sign, like, okay, this was more needed than I thought, because there is a lot of emotion here. And realize if that emotion there is there for your spouse, it's in a way blocking them from sexual intimacy, from the kind of growth you could have as a couple. And take that as the hope of, wow, if we can work through all this, strong the emotion, and maybe them feeling unheard or unvalued, wow, look. Look where it could continue to take us. So don't get down about the fighting. Find the silver lining even in the presence of it. Well, let's shift gears for a minute here, Julie, because they're single people that listen. And if you're one of those, kudos to you for listening to a sexual intimacy episode up to this point. But the reality is, for a lot of single people, they're hoping to be married again. Statistically, they will be married again or. Or for the first time if they're not yet been married. What steps would you say that a single person could be taking in this area to prepare themselves for the kind of sexual intimacy that we've been talking about? Is. Is this something where they just have to wait till they're married and then begin addressing it then? Or what could they do as a single person to. To be ready for this kind of a fulfilling marriage that we're talking about here.

Yeah, I'm so glad you asked that question. Yeah. I think a lot of people feel like I can't work on this until I'm married, but that's so not true, even in the context of what we've been discussing. You are going to come into every relationship, including a potential new marriage, with the backstory, with pain, with shame, with thinking about sex that you grew up with, whether it was the teaching you got or didn't receive. And so you can do a lot of work now in just getting the right perspective of sex and of getting set free, and that that's going to be helpful for you regardless of whether you get married or not. We want to be free people. And, you know, Satan camps out in areas of our lives that are in darkness. And because it's so easily associated with shame, sexuality is often an area of our life that just stays in darkness. We don't expose it to the truth of God's light. We don't know how to be honest about what we're thinking or struggling with or the wounds from the past that we're carrying. And so the more you can work on being able to say, God owns every area of my heart, including every area of my sexuality, the more you're going to be free and whole as a single. And then if you get married as an adult, when you think about married sex, you can only give your spouse what you own. Like, for example, if I wanted to give you my house because I'm feeling very generous. If you wanted to live in northeastern Ohio, I couldn't give you my house because I don't own the whole thing. The bank owns a portion of it. I can only give you the part I own. And the same is true in our marriage and in sexuality. You can only give what belongs to you. And for all of us, there are aspects of our sexuality that are mortgaged, not by a bank, but by the enemy. He camps out there with lies and with fear. And so you want to be somebody who's fully set free. And that's a journey. It's not going to happen overnight. And the sooner we begin working on that journey, the more we can really say, God, if and when I get married, I'm available to give all of myself to that person that you would bring.

Yeah, that's so good. So give your future spouse the gift of being debt free, not just in your finances. I know Dave Ramsey talks about that a lot, like, try to be debt free when you get married. But really in your sexuality, don't bring those debts and the baggage and the hurt or the addiction into the marriage, because it's. And I wish I would have had the ability to hear these conversations when I was a young single man, because I brought a lot of mortgages into my marriage. And I can tell you from that experience, it's really painful to have to try to pay off those debts in the marriage when it's also wounded the person that you love. And now, you know, your debts have become their debts, and it's. It feels even deeper. That's. It's painful. And so to the single person, like, the more work you do to pay those debts, to work through your baggage, your addictions, your struggles, when you enter into that relationship, the kind of relationship you can have. And it's no. Obviously no guarantee for a perfect future relationship, but the. The probability of having a healthy relationship, I'd say, is just infinitely greater and is really a tremendous gift you could give that future spouse one day.

Yeah, you know, I. I think about when I was a single man and there were no safe spaces to talk about any of this, you know? And so I had one friend who I remember, he was. He's. He's. He's crazy. I love him to death. And he would just randomly walk up to his guy friends and say, when was the last time you masturbated? And he would just ask these questions. And I think it was more just.

A shocking avoiding that phrase.

I think it was mostly just to, like, shock people.

People.

But that was the only person I think that anyone had those conversations with because he was so open about just talking about it. And so, yeah, I know. Personally, I wish that things like this or that I would have been aware of things like this when I was younger and single. But just having safe spaces and being a safe person for people to have these conversations, I think will help the single person as well.

Talk about Julie's new book.

Yeah. Yeah. So, Julie, you have a new book coming out, Finding the Hero in youn Embracing youg Power in Marriage. I wish I had it so I could hold it up to the camera and have a pan in and all that. But how can our listeners stay in touch with you and just tell us about your new book that's coming out?

Yeah. So this book actually was a complete rewrite of the first book that I wrote over 20 years ago. And it really is written to wives about how we use our power and that God has given us a lot of power in marriage and how to Use it in a way that builds intimacy instead of sabotaging intimacy. So. So it's, again, specifically for women, although I've heard that some husbands are reading it as well. But. And then I have another book coming out that actually probably would pertain to this conversation even more. This will be coming out in June. It's called God, sex in your marriage, and it is for married couples, specifically on how do we get from sexual activity to sexual intimacy. What does it look like to build a sex life that honors God and really reflects his design for covenant love? So, excuse me. So that one will be coming out this summer.

And what's the best place for people to go if they want to follow? You read articles here, you give talks. I mean, do you have a place where you would say, hey, here's a landing place for people to see more of what I've done?

Yeah, well, there's this really cool thing called the Internet. Yes, you can find me. I know. Isn't it crazy? But our website is authenticintimacy.com and you'll find books, resources, our podcast, job with Julie, which Nick, you've been on before, and connect with us there.

Yeah, well, I highly recommend for our listeners to check that out. I also highly recommend Julie's books. Any of them. She's got a number of them out there on, you know, your favorite Internet bookstore. I just really appreciate Julie, the way you bring a very godly, biblical perspective to these difficult topics, whether it's marriage or sex or addiction. You speak from a place of having walked this road and worked with a lot of people, and yet staying very anchored in the truth of who God says we are and how God made us. So that's my plug for anything Julia's written. She's just one of those. She's one of those people that we love having on the podcast because we trust her. We trust her work and what she's doing, and we just really speak highly to connecting with her@authenticintimacy.com so, Julie, again, thanks for being with us. As we wrap up today's episode, is there any final encouragement you would want to leave our listeners with? You know, they say that what people hear last is what they'll tend to remember. So what would you want people to walk away with from today's episode?

Yeah, I think I just reiterate that sexual intimacy is a journey, and don't get discouraged on the journey. And God is with you. He is for you. So those are things that we covered in our. In our conversation, but those would be the things I'd love for you to take away.

That's awesome. Thanks so much, Julie.

Yeah, thank you, Julie, for spending time with us.

That is my pleasure. Thanks.

And listeners, wherever you're at on your journey to healing, Pure Desire is here to help create a roadmap for your healing. If you or someone you know is impacted by sexual brokenness or betrayal trauma, go to PureDesire.org and let's start the healing journey today. Don't forget to I don't get to do this often, so I'm struggling. Don't forget to subscribe to the podcast. Each week we put out new content to help you on the road to healing and freedom. And lastly, never stop being healthy.