241 - Women's Takeover #3: Empowering A Betrayed Partner

You're listening to the Pure Desire Podcast, your safe place to find hope, healing, and freedom from sexual addiction, betrayal, and relationship issues. All right, well, welcome back. I'm your host, Ashley Jamison, and you are listening to episode 241 of the Pure Desire podcast, Women's Takeover. Here to join me is my lovely co host, Heather Kolb.

We are having so much fun with these episodes. We've had some great guests on so far. We have another one today which is so much fun, so.

And no boys.

No boys.

Except for Justin, and he has a ponytail, so, yeah, that was a laugh. And we love Justin, so.

We love Justin.

But otherwise, no boys. Not on this episode. Because today we are going to be speaking with Jen Howey, our very own here at Pure Desire, and she helps oversee the women's groups online, and we get to talk to her about things we can do to empower a betrayed partner.

Yes. And some of the stuff that you've heard that our audience has heard in other episodes about safety and boundaries and really, what does moving forward look like? Jen just gives us some great examples of really impractical steps on how to apply some of these things.

Yeah. And I really like this discussion because we can learn things in a textbook, but I know especially for people that are in trauma, when I was in trauma and experienced that, we need to be like, okay, tell me exactly what you did. I want to know exactly what you did. And so I feel like that's what we get today is some really good, real life examples of what it looks like to start finding that inner voice and stability and strength as a betrayed partner.

Yep. Really good.

All right, well, here's our time with Jen Howey. Okay, well, here we are today talking to our very own Jen Howey. We're very happy to have you in person, in the flesh, at this table talking to us today about empowering a betrayed partner. So thanks for being here.

I am so happy to be here, Ashley. This is so fun, the three of us being here at a table together and discussing really difficult things. But what an honor it is to just do this. Thank you.

Yeah. Hopefully this will be a. An episode where we can leave partners feeling a little, like, pumped up and ready to take the reins of their own healing, I guess. Right? Yeah. We don't need it to be a sad episode. We want it to be a pump up episode. We need some fight theme music.

Oh, we could do that. Can we do that, Justin? No.

Fight theme. Like, okay, like maybe a Rocky. Yes. Theme in the background right now.

Maybe some Pink?

Yeah. Ooh, pink. Yeah. Okay. All right, so first question. Following discovery or disclosure, one of the primary needs of a betrayed partner is safety. So what do they need right in the moment? How do they feel safe? And can you describe a little bit of what your pursuit for safety looks like?

Oh, my gosh. My pursuit for safety was a hot mess. Yep. Seriously hot mess all over the place. Because, honestly, when you're in the very beginning of that betrayal phase, really knowing the difference between safety and control, that's really hard to determine. Mine were very, very enmeshed. And so in effort to feel safe, I would try to control because my circumstances were out of control. So for me, personally, I mean, if you were watching from the outside, you'd. You'd probably be like, this. This gal needs to maybe go away for some treatment. And quite honestly, maybe. Maybe I even did. I don't. I don't know. Well, if you ask Dan, he might say so. I don't know. But what I needed in the moment more than anything was someone to steady me. And that's really what the betrayal and beyond process actually did for me was it steadied me when I was in this raging sea, sea of confusion and really not knowing up from down. So for me, safety meant being heard, being seen, and having someone there to be that steady course for me. So. And the reality is, I. Some things I got right, some things I got wrong, but that is the chaos of what's left over when betrayal takes place. That's just a part of it. So I think also understanding that there isn't really any doing it right. There's just doing it, and then having others come alongside you to help ease things out and then get on a path where you can make decisions when you're back into that window of tolerance after your, you know, discovery's taken place.

That's a really good visual, that idea of having somebody else that can steady you, you know, and just because it seems like everything is probably hitting you from all these different sides, and even to try and maintain forward motion in the midst of that just seems like an unreasonable expectation. So I love that word that. That phrase. Steadying. Yeah, that's good.

I think that's why it's so important, too, to get in group, because even navigating things within my own family members or like with my younger sister when she was going through hard things, I just kept saying, well, you trust me, right? You trust me as your sister, so you need to. Will you trust my brain to help your brain? Because you're in trauma.

And yeah.

And she'd be like, okay. And so I'd have to remind her that I'm a person she can trust and that she's in trauma. And if she trusts me and she knows she's in trauma, then would she be willing to do something that I suggest and that really helped her to just kind of be like, okay, I can't trust my feelings right now, so I'm going to trust somebody else's brain. I think group can do that for people.

You've done that for me. I mean, via text. How many times have I texted and you've come back with this? And I'm like, I needed that so much. And honestly, what you texted to me isn't anything. Wasn't really necessarily anything new.

Anything you didn't know?

Nothing I didn't know. But it was that trusted resource that was. That was. That had that reminder of truth that this will be navigated. You've navigated it already. You can navigate it again. All right. Studying the course. Yeah.

Yeah. That is so good. Yes.

People to do that for you.

Yeah.

So how did your need then, for safety show up in the way that you established boundaries?

I only smile because I would set a boundary and then I'd move the boundary, and then I'd set a boundary and I'd move a boundary. Because quite honestly, boundaries wasn't something that I was proficient in. I didn't necessarily have many internal boundaries of my own, let alone external. And so for those of us that struggle with boundaries and I thought I had boundaries, but since I've learned what boundaries really are, with hindsight, I learned I really didn't have them. So with hindsight, for those of us that struggle with boundaries, I think understanding that trying to practice those boundaries is something that is fruitful, even if it's not very. I don't want to say fruitful again, but, you know, it can be fruitful. Just the practice of it. Just like anything you're trying for the first time, just keep trying to establish something. It's going to be messy. Um, I. What I discovered is the boundaries I would set weren't actually boundaries that. That I could actually hold to. And so pulling back and applying boundaries that maybe were more applicable because managing boundaries while you're in crisis is just really, really difficult. And. And that's why setting a plan in place, something like a recovery action plan, if. If you haven't been in group yet, you would learn about this. That's why setting like action plan is a boundary. You said I'm going back to this window of tolerance. I'm really digging this.

It is so good.

Something we can keep repeating.

Okay.

Okay, great.

So. So. So this is why we set our boundaries while we're in our window of tolerance. Because when we're outside of our window of tolerance, our ability to access our verbal skills, our reasoning skills, really kind of goes out the window. So having something in place is. That helps us manage that while we're in crisis is really, really important. But as far as boundaries that I set, like when Dan and I were in this first process, you know, you have to go to group, you have to go to counseling for a small amount of time. He moved out until after disclosure so that I could just be removed from the trigger so that I could breathe. I needed to see a commitment for him to be working on himself. And like I said, it's a process. Setting boundaries is a process that can be a little volatile of its own if you're not well versed in it. But with practice, just like anything else, with practice, you can become quite proficient, and it can be the. The very thing that keeps your marriage and your sanity. Yeah, on course.

I think what you described, too, is exactly what Dr. Steffens was talking about in another episode with us where she was saying that, you know, like. Like you and me and many others, we're not used to practicing and implementing any kind of boundaries. And so in that early stage, it can look so different, and it also can just be one small, small thing.

Yes.

And she said it could be something that even. Only, you know, you're doing, but internally, it starts to empower you to make those changes. And I really loved that she said that. And I felt like what you described just kind of.

Sometimes even just speaking my need was. Was a. Was a boundary I needed to move towards. I didn't know that I. That I actually even struggled with that. Yeah.

Yeah. To be able to say something out loud.

Yes.

Yes. Even if it's just like today, I'm going to say one thing out loud, even if it makes me uncomfortable. But even just that is so good for our mental health and our safety and just feeling empowered, too. Yeah. That whole finding your voice piece is a slow process, but it's so important.

Well, boundaries are the very thing that keep you in relationship with others, but I think few of us understand how it keeps us in relationship with ourselves. Yes.

Yeah.

And I. So, yes, those. Those little things, establishing internal boundaries, and then you can take some bigger step to establish external boundaries, all with the purpose of relating well to yourself and relating well to others.

Yeah. I used to think I had this rule of, like, okay, if John makes me mad, I'm gonna bite my cheeks for 24 hours and not say anything.

Ouch.

All the while I had kick the dog syndrome or kick the kid or slam the cupboard or, you know, like, you know, then you're just, like, rampaging through the house because you're holding something in that really just should have been said. And I know that I learned that from my childhood because I'm the only one of my dad's kids, out of the six of us that never got a spanking. And I learned that because I saw what my siblings did, and I was like, I'm not saying anything. So I carry that into my marriages. And then I started to realize, going through group process, that that is so unhealthy. And it really destroys our relationship because we don't get to work on anything, so. And yeah, and then you just get angry and bitter and just your hair falls out and it's just terrible.

Wow. Do we need to talk about this enough?

A little bit more than your breaking place. Okay, so in our work with partners, how can we help them understand the various forms of safety they might need? So in the early stages, like you're describing, and we know that it can be hard to get somebody to put boundaries in place in the early stages, but sometimes there's spiritual, intellectual, physical, sexual. There's so many different types of ways they could be unsafe. So how do we help them see their areas?

Oh, so you just kind of took some of the list that I actually was going to describe here. So, yes, so I was going to kind of touch on the physical, emotional and spiritual. And for many of us, like, the physical. My husband wasn't physically abusive.

Right.

So what did physical safety look like for me? For me, the physical safety was when we were in the depths of that crisis, removing ourselves from each other. For me, speaking for myself, removing myself from the person that was really pushing me towards deeper into trauma, giving myself some room to breathe, that physical safety of him being gone. And of course, he obviously ended up coming back. We've been doing this over nine years now. But he did come back, and I was able to reestablish and get back into that window of tolerance. So the physical piece of that. But I think. And so whether it's physical, emotional, spiritual, I think there's a few things that have to be considered. You have to work on being trustworthy. And obviously, when there's been Betrayal. Working on being trustworthy is much easier said than done. And so again, because we're looking at our own healing and looking at ourselves, we work on being trustworthy towards ourselves. Right. When the, when the other person isn't necessarily trustworthy and hopefully they're doing the same thing. So that when you come back together, there's this, there's this building upon being trustworthy within ourselves so we can be trustworthy to one another. So that's my thought on that. And then valuing differences. I, I did not value my husband's differences. I, I didn't because he's the one that put us in this place. If you were to ask me what our differences was, it would be. It would be, he's not a great husband.

Yeah.

And I'm a great wife. And honestly, he may, he may have actually even agreed with that at that point because of what he was doing. But there's things, thoughts and beliefs creating motions that drive behavior. So valuing the things that are driving emotions and behavior, they're going to be very different if you'd like, if you, if you're into the enneagram at all, there's going to be differences. And until we learn to value the differences between us, we were not necessarily really in a safe environment. And then limiting judgments. That kind of goes with the, with valuing each other's differences. I had no idea that I was a judgmental person. I really, I truly, truly didn't because I truly love everyone. And I've never been more judgmental than, than when I went through this process. And I'm judgmental of myself and I'm judgmental of my husband's. My husband's. I did have two, but for the sake, totally discussing the one for now. But I didn't realize how judgmental I was of him, which really did not. In going further into and deeper into the healing process. It was not beneficial to our marriage because that judgment didn't shift. It continued and built upon and, and then respecting each other's boundaries. Now when I went into the process I was starting, like I said, I kind of went really fast forward on the, on the, on the boundaries, trying to establish all these things to control my environment. And, and my husband and his graciousness just really accepted that and went with it. But I didn't even give him the opportunity to set boundaries of his own. And I think that for those of us that are in the betrayal process, we feel like they don't have a right to their own boundaries. And that was a Learning curve for me that my husband had a right to his own boundaries in relationship to me in this healing process. So whether it's physical, emotional, spiritual, having those things in place, I think are really important.

And that goes back to really what we say over and over again, that we can only be responsible for our healing. And. And we want healing for the other person. But. But that has to be on their plate. You know, it can't be on our plate. And even if we functioning with a dessert plate at some times, you know, that your plate is really small, which, that's how I live, basically. But still, it just is taking on what you can take on where. Whether it comes to safety and boundaries and all of the things that we need in the moment for our healing and let them pursue their own healing. Yeah, I think that's so good.

I thought it was a really good practice. And unfortunately, this was at the kind of the tail end of my heavy recovery healing work. When you write the impact letter and. And. And go through each one of those steps of, like, your addiction and to see. Affected me, you know, this way sexually, this way professionally, this way physically, this way financially, and to really just step back and see and have to think about those. Because on the front end, I'd say, oh, there's no physical effect. But then when, by the time I got to the end, it was like, no, my autoimmune disease flares. My neck gets sore from all the cortisol. And so now knowing that if there were to be ever another betrayal or disclosure or anything, I know right away I leave the house. Because if I'm in the house, I carry all of that tension, and I don't want to feel that way. I don't want to check out as a parent, which was also on that list, you know, and. And so to just recognize. But it. It's. It's like a layered process. You know, in the beginning, you just want to feel safe, sane, and like your nerves are on the inside of your body, not the outside. And then by the end, you're just able to, like, really get into those depths of how you feel, you know, and. And kind of even tweak it a little bit. So it might not look the same all the way through.

No, it doesn't.

Or the same for each other.

Yeah. You know.

Right. Which then brings us to just our discussion about group. And I know we all just love group, but how does. For a partner. How does group benefit them?

You know, you just made the statement, everyone loves group. And I, as an Overall statement, I believe that's really, really true. But I also believe that when there's growth, that pain enters the process at some point. So at some points, we don't always love the process in group, and I think it's super important because those are the people. Group are the people who stick with you when it's uncomfortable. But answering the question, you know, and we've talked about this before, another podcast, and in other ways, you know, we're not alone. We're not crazy. We're not overreacting. Those affirmations are really, really important in the beginning because we're saying that to ourselves. Sometimes the world is telling us that sometimes the world says, you need to leave and I want to stay. Maybe other betrayal trauma groups will tell you he's just a narcissist and leave and that type of thing. But. But yet your God is talking to you, saying, no, I've got something here for you in your marriage. So there's a lot of conflicting information that's coming at you. And what group does. It steadies us, right? And when others have their discoveries, they can often become our own discoveries. To this day, I lead group, and I often will just have my book, my original book to the side. Someone's. Well, back when it was like three books all, you know, one book every three months. And I'll still have my book and I'll still write things down from my group members because I am still learning, I'm still discovering, I'm still growing. It's kind of like what group is. Is like when you're on the airplane, oh, gosh, you're getting on a flight. So don't. You know, it's like when the mask. When the. When the oxygen mask comes down, we put it on ourselves so that we can assist others. And that is what group is. We. We're. We're helping. We're helping ourselves, working on ourselves, not just for the purpose of our marriage and honoring God and honoring our own process, but really to enter into the kingdom of what he's doing. God is in the midst of this ministry. He's in the midst of many other ministries, and. And we are being called into walking through our own healing to help others walk through there. So it's that ox oxygen mask kind of picture of. That's what group does. We learn to breathe, and then we help others to breathe. And. And that becomes sort of this ripple effect. So with. With huge implications, including spiritual ones. So that's why I'd get into group.

Yeah, yeah. I don't know how many times either myself or a group member or even John, you know, have felt really down and discouraged. And then somebody in your group maybe text or calls, and they're going through something, and it, like, pulls you out of yourself to help them. And. And then you get off the call and you're like, I feel better. You know, that there's something about being able to help each other and. And God's timing is always. Usually.

I wonder, though, because, I mean, was there ever a time where you didn't want to go to your betrayal? And beyond group, am I the only one that felt that way? Like, I did not want to go to group this week? There were several times. And quite honestly, it's because we're all talking about trauma, and trauma's not easy, or we're talking about things from the past or just was taking place currently. Some really, really difficult things. So it can be hard to show up in group. But every single time I struggled to go to group, when I came out of it, I said, I'm so glad I went every time.

Oh, yeah. And mine wasn't even so much about what we were talking about. It's that I'm a busy mom, and I know a lot of people can relate to that. I don't want to take two hours out of my evening to go to a group for something that my husband did. And so there was those days. And I think it was hardest in my second year. And that's. That's when I found leading a group was so important because I would have not continued healing my second year. I would have gone through the first group and been like, got the T shirt. But I really needed a full five years of working on it and growing in it and having it morph and look different. And so when I'd be, like, crying on the bed, like, I don't want to go to a group. I just want to watch TV and, you know, like, whatever. And then I would go because I had to, and then I'd leave and be like, that was wonderful. Yeah.

And I know this isn't part of the question, but I think the piece of that, the struggle to go to group is we have to. We're living this life of having it together and managing all these different areas. And then I got to go to group and be not. I don't have to go and be raw and vulnerable and authentic, but I do.

Yeah.

And then I gotta step back into this role. And it can be kind of exhausting.

Yes.

To switch Gears like that. And so sometimes that can be an obstacle to going. But it's always, always worth it.

It's always. Yeah, it's always good.

I agree.

Okay. Well, along that this kind of goes along with what we've been talking about. But what was one of the best forms of unexpected encouragement or support you received as a betrayed partner?

It's funny, I read this question wrong.

What would you write? Maybe God has a word for us.

Well, this. This. Actually, I'm going to. I'm going to share how I read it and how I'd answer that one. I'm going to share both. So I read it as what was the best forms of unexpected encouragement or support you received from. And I, for whatever reason, removed the word betrayed from my spouse and I started to sit on that and really I will. I'll just share that. What Dan did that was incredibly supportive for me is he did not minimize my experience. Never. Now, back when he was in his addiction, there was gaslighting and minimizing. But. But once everything came to light. Mm. He didn't minimize what I was going through. That was incredibly supportive. Especially as I'm in group and I'm hearing how other husbands will respond to their wives. They want em to get over it already. And that type of thing that was. That created space for me. And then he was just simply respectful of my process. He didn't try to fix my process or control my process. Gosh, it'd be really interesting to have a conversation, a deeper conversation with him about this as to what he was experiencing, but from the person who was receiving. Those were very, very helpful.

Yeah.

Then as far as encouragement or support, I had my friend Adrian. At the time we lived in Bend and she was in Vancouver. So it's about a two and a half hour, three hour drive. Ish. She took her PTO from her work and she drove over and she sat on my couch. And not to bring up the pink thing again, but she introduced me to Pink. I had never heard her. And if you know anything about pink, she's most Christians, you know, sometimes not most Christians. Some Christians struggle with the content of her music.

But like female anthem music.

Yeah, but. But not Carrie Underwood. Female anthem. I mean that. Which is very good. Yeah. Did I say Carrie? I said Carrie.

Yeah.

Kelly. Carrie. Carrie. Anyway, the point is, is that what. What she did is she came with an anthem.

Yeah.

And. And I related to the music that she was sharing with me. So, you know, whether whatever music it may be, she showed up and she created space and there was very limited talking. So how do you. How do you say and talk about when you're three days into this? Yeah, you don't. You sit and you listen to music. You listen to Empowering female. I'm strong. I've got this. Because you need someone there to do that. And so for me, that was probably the biggest amount of support and encouragement. Now, when I went through everything with my first husband, I got a ton of letters and cards and words of encouragement and. And. And those are good, too. In this case, it was just someone holding space for me, sitting, occupying, and breathing the same air I was breathing and sitting with me in it and not saying a word. So that was. Was. That was huge for me.

Yeah, I think that's so underrated, too, of just. You don't have to say anything. Even if you don't understand it. It's probably better not. Yeah. Why? My friend, I remember there was a time of disclosure, and I went and answered the door and an Uber person brought me cold stone. Cold stone ice cream. And my friend just sent it because she couldn't get away from her kids. And I was like, just like those little things that. And she doesn't understand betrayal, trauma that way, you know? But just to say, like, I don't know what to do, but ice cream helps. No words.

Just.

You know, I guess my. I mean, I guess I would just say too there and encouragement to people who don't know what to say. That's okay. And it's probably better than trying to find something to say.

It can be so much better.

Sorry you're feeling this way. Yeah, absolutely. So good.

So in faith communities, we don't really talk much about abuse yet we know that it happens. And in fact, we're learning so much more about abuse and the trauma that it produces and the effect that it has on the brain and body. And so when it comes to the various forms of abuse, whether it's covert or overt. So let's talk about that a little bit. What was either your experience with that or what you have experienced in group and. Yeah, Open that door.

Yes, just open that door. Well, let's start with COVID abuse, because I didn't really know that nice guys could be abusive. And I think. I don't know how far I was in the process, but I remember saying to my husband, you are abusive. That's abuse. You are abusive. And it wasn't because I was trying to shame him, but I was coming to this realization that his behavior was abusive. And then. And then I. Once I realized it, I could start saying it. And I was saying it out loud almost for myself and kind of for him. And. And just this moment of, holy smokes, nice guys can be abusive. If you know my husband, he's a nice guy.

Yeah.

How can nice guys be abusive? It's the overtness or covertness.

Covert.

Covert. Thank you. So gaslighting, deflecting, you know, saying things like, I'm sorry you feel that way, or yeah, I can. You know, in your first marriage, you experienced something. I can see why, like, totally deflecting from their own behavior to make you think that. That what you're experiencing is really a result of your past trauma with someone else, maybe a family member, maybe it was a relationship or something else. But that deflecting is incredibly abusive. Neglecting, shutting down, withholding, Withholding from someone. Willfully rejecting their presence, their opinion, their experience. Willfully doing it for. It could be for the sake of control. I mean, we can't, you know, we can't measure someone's intent or motivation. We can only measure our own. But. But willfully withdrawing from someone to maintain control of the situation. Let's say you want to talk about someone and something, and. And that person doesn't want to engage. Well, there's a difference between being in that hypo arousal part of that window of tolerance versus someone who is purposely withholding so that they can make control of the situation. So there's deflecting, neglecting, and then the way we treat people. Anything that threatens our safety, either emotionally, physically, or spiritually, or the spiritual bypass. All of those things are forms of abuse that we may not recognize. And I'm always amazed that when I'm in group that women come in and they will. They will say things and really have no recognition of what they're experiencing as abuse, because that's a whole different thing of its own. I've got to deal with betrayal. And now I have to consider that the person I love, the person that I trusted the most, the person that's the father of my children, the person who I'm actually working on a relationship with, is abusive. That's a whole nother layer of processing that I may not be aware that I need to really address. And so it's a whole layer of trauma. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I know that we talked about this a little bit just recently. Ashley and I were talking about this, of just how come it is that women who've experienced betrayal, they don't really recognize that the behaviors that they're experiencing are not healthy or are not normal. And especially if you've been in a relationship for a long time, your brain is conditioned to respond to what's happening in your environment. But almost sometimes to the point to our own detriment, that even when something serious happens, you know, and we just think this is just normal life, and it isn't until we can say it out loud to somebody else and they look at us sideways and think, oh, my gosh, that's not right. That's not healthy. You need to do this. But, but as long as we're in that same environment and our brain is going to tell us that, oh, this is normal, then how else would we know that we need to be doing something different or that it's unhealthy? And I think that that goes along with, you know, the way that we experience abuse is that we might not. We might need other people to help us figure out that. That this behavior is not right, that. That we are valued and we are loved and, and that we deserve to be treated with respect. And so I just think that that's. I don't know, one of the powerful things about group too, is that it gives us that environment with safe people for somebody else maybe to say, you know, to point that out or for us to recognize it in their stories.

Yeah. And our brains love normal. Right. We want to go back to normal. Isn't. I mean, most of us walk into this process, say, I just want to be normal again. And unfortunately, sometimes normal isn't healthy. Right?

Yeah. Yeah, it's likely our. Yeah, our normal was not normal in the first place.

Yes.

You know?

Yeah.

I remember saying that to Rodney in his office and be like, I just want things to go back to the way they were. He's like, no, you don't.

Yeah.

I'm like, you don't know me.

You don't know anything.

But through this process, I mean, I recognize the subtle abuse, you know, because it kind of can sometimes go hand in hand with addiction because addiction in its nature is selfish and will do what it needs to do to protect its drive, you know, its thing. But I really recognize, going through this process, the forms of subtle abuse that I did with my kids because it was learned behavior from my family or from having two husbands with addictions. Like there was no other normal. And I remember somebody saying to me, you scare your children. And I was like, yeah, it's awesome. And they cry and they get really scared. And I mean, like. And they behave little like three year old, you know, Ayla or three year old. Amen. Be walking up and I'd like, just like, totally, like, jump out from the closet or something. Like, I mean, trauma. And I remember somebody saying, like, that's not good for your kids. And I was like, that is literally, like, we'd be sleeping in a. In a. In a tent, and my dad would. On the side of the tent and terrify us or my sister would. It was just normal and like. And then I remember John saying, don't scare the kids. Like, they're really crying. They're really scared. And I'm like, like, it's fun. He's like, nobody thinks it's fun except for you. And I just, like, I literally had no concept that that was, like, not fun and not normal, because that's what we did in our family. I also had nightmares until I was like, 27 years old. So I feel like I'm fine. Did you ever play dead with your children? I don't know.

That's terrible.

That's terrible. I mean, my sister used to do that, though. And she would go, I'm not Amanda. Like, I mean, we just. And we have these kind of like ceilings that pop up in our room, and she would pop hers out, climb up on her dresser, go through the ceiling, pop mine out, and then be looking at me through my ceiling and be like, so it was very normal for me to scare my children. And so that's the kind of stuff like, I'm glad I got corrected of that early on. It was super embarrassing, but I'm glad somebody decided to correct. That's why we all need those we do that are farther away from the journey. Ashley, stop making your children cry. They have nightmares.

And we laugh about it now, but there's so much.

No, I'm sorry, I'm. Yeah, just add it to the list. Bring it to your counselor.

Exactly. Oh, my gosh.

Okay.

Thanks for sharing that, Ashley.

Yeah. Yeah, I felt really convicted about that one. All right. We know it takes time, even years, for couples to align their recovery and their healing path. Um, so what are some of the things that you did to try to close that gap and work through that?

It's hard. Aligning is very, very difficult because, as you know, one person will be moving forward in their healing, and then the next person is way forward. And in any time, maybe I'm a little competitive and I didn't realize it, but anytime that Dan was ahead in his recovery, I'm like, that's not okay. Like, you cannot be ahead of me in this process because you were the one that got us here. Therefore, I should always be ahead, thus pointing out the fact that I was actually unhealthy and deserved to be behind. You know, but so it is really that, that, that cadence of staying in relationship while in recovery is really, really difficult. But I will, I will say that I think the thing by far, and maybe people have heard this on a podcast before, but something that absolutely was pivotal for Dan and I was the statement, are you willing to consider? Because until we're willing to consider, fill in the blank. There's very little room for discussion. There's very little room for coming together, there's very little room for moving forward.

Right.

Until one is willing to really consider the other's point of view, the other's experience. Because they can be. You can have one situation and have two polar opposite experiences. And so for us, aligning our recovery and our healing path was, was based off of this. Willing to consider each other's process.

Yeah, that's an experience that's really good. It reminds me of. I don't remember which module it was, but who was it that was teaching us about the mobile, like the baby crib mobile, that it's a family system, so when one moves, they all, you know, shift. And.

Marnie.

Marnie. And that was such a good imagery because John got into group and he was in group for a few months, and I was still just crippled and paralyzed. And there was a point where he came home and he's like, you have to get healing, you have to get in group because I'm moving forward and you're staying stuck. And I can't. Like, it takes both of us. And so that's why we always stress it so important that both people are in group, because if one's moving forward and the other is not, then you can only go so far.

What do you. Yeah, I'm going to throw a question your way. What do you say to the woman who says, I'll move forward as soon as he gets us unstuck?

That's a great question, Ashley.

Well, what I say to women in that, I mean, I guess it's not phrased in that exact same way. Like, basically the woman's like, he needs to stop. This is his problem, that kind of thing. Well, when I have women, if somebody were to call me and be like, I don't need a group. This is his problem, blah, blah, what I usually say is, whether you know or not, that this problem was going on, there was something with this addiction felt in the household between you between your kids. Because if your husband was living in addiction, then that means he also had behaviors that got him to the place where he could do that. And he also had behaviors that covered it up so you wouldn't know. And he also had behaviors to set himself up to act it out. And so whether you knew what was going on or not, it affected you because you just deal with what you see.

And so it's a family systems issue.

Totally. A family system. Like you can feel the temperature in the house if something's off and even.

If it's just hindsight.

Oh, yeah, completely. That's why we have so many women say now there's a name to it and there's that dual relief and shock at the same time.

Yes.

Because now they know what it's called. Yeah. Yeah.

So true. Yeah.

So in the process of healing, we know that it's important for a couple to develop empathy not only for the addict spouse to develop empathy for the partner, but also for the partner to develop empathy for the addict. And so what was that like for you? Can you think, can you remember the first time that you actually felt empathy for your husband? And what did that look like?

I think it was this week.

Really.

It was. I'm getting teary because we're over nine years into this process. And while I have sympathized with my husband, true empathy came this week in the midst of an argument. And I was in my hyper arousal state of hyper vigilance. And I. He asked me a question. I'm like, not now. And. And in this arousal state, I got upset because he wasn't responding really the way I wanted him to. He. He was calm, cool and collected. And that made me angry because in my experience that I was having in the moment, this wasn't a time to be calm, cool and collected. This is a time to be hypervigilant and worry and not trust God.

How do you relate to what you're saying? Yes. So how dare you become.

Exactly. So in. In this. In this moment, I. He. As he normally does, because he's a good guy. He listens to me and where I am, and he's willing to consider. Right. And I share with him everything I'm feeling. And he enters into this moment of empathy with me, and I'm feeling great because he. Because he intends to be a hyper bow. Arousal guy. Finally. I mean, my whole. This whole process, I just want him to feel something. Right. So many of us women are like, just feel something. Just feel something. Well, my husband was feeling My empathy, I mean, empathy for me, it was very moving. I was very moved. And then it shifted because he was experiencing pain and shame on top of empathy. So here he is experiencing empathy and pain because. Because he's able to do that now. And then on top of it, he knows that my trauma was induced by his behavior and he had to carry on a heap of more pain. So now he's feeling my stuff and realizing that he was responsible for a lot of it. And I could see how overwhelmed he was. And I was like, oh, all these years I've been wanting my husband to understand. I've been wanting him to empathize. I didn't understand what that required for him. What it required was for him not only to feel my stuff, but feel the reality and the shame that he was the one that had indeed had. Had put that upon me. And I understand now the importance of patience and empathy for one another. We don't know what the other person is processing. We don't know what it took to get them to where. Where they are. He didn't fully understand why, why I was being hyper vigilant in that moment. Are we willing to consider.

Yeah.

That the other person, their, Their life experiences, the narrative in their head, the, the. The belief system that is driving some of the behavior. Are we willing to consider that their pain is just as important as ours? Just as valid? Because until we're willing to consider that, we cannot. Not only are we not able to empathize with one another, but we miss out on a major, major marriage building experience. This week was a marriage building experience, but we were both in an incredible amount of pain. But in that, I learned it's okay. Just like boundaries we talked about at the beginning, where it comes in small doses. Forgiveness can come in small doses. It's okay that empathy comes in small doses. It's a practice that we, that we choose to move toward so that we can relate to ourselves and relate to others. And no one did this better than Jesus. Jesus empathized with us better than anybody else. So what it ended up becoming for Dan and I this past week was he. He was Jesus to me. As he met me, my empathy and my heart softened. And then I got to be that for him. And so it became a really beautiful experience, but it was incredibly painful. So. So I'd like to say, I say that it was this week, but honestly, to get to where we were this week, it took practice after practice after practice of considering the other person's perspective and pain.

Yeah, that's so good.

It is a painful process. Beautiful and painful in a process. So that's really beautiful. Well, I mean, I feel like everything you've said today is encouraging for betrayed partners, but if you were to wrap it up and give some kind of words of encouragement to our betrayed partners that are listening, what would you say to encourage them?

I'm still sort of warm from the last question. Well, first of all, don't underestimate what God can do. I have watched God seriously change marriages that I truly thought were not gonna work. You know, I'm lucky to be married to someone I like. I watch couples who don't even like each other go through this process and God transform that marriage. So don't underestimate, you know, what God can do. And then the words that I hated going through a group that my group leader told me all the time, but it's so true. Trust the process. Trusting that process and. And honestly understanding that regardless of the outcome of your marriage, that you can have joy again. Regardless of the outcome, there can be and will be joy again. And so you. You. You follow those that have gone before you. You trust the process and don't underestimate your God.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

That's so good.

So good.

Okay, well, thank you, Jen, for being here with us today and sharing your story and your vulnerable experience last week. I always love that fresh. You saw it here first.

Yes.

I love your vulnerability and also just, you know, getting to pick your brain from your wisdom of helping so many leaders. So thank you for being with us.

It was a lot of fun. Thank you both for letting me hang out with you guys. And thank you, Justin.

Justin. And remember, wherever you're at on your journey, pure desire is here to help create a roadmap for healing. If you or someone you know is impacted by sexual brokenness or betrayal trauma, go to PureDesire.org and let's start the healing journey today. Don't forget to subscribe to the the podcast. Each week we put out new content to help you on the road to healing and freedom. And lastly, never stop being healthy.