242 - Women's Takeover #4 - Stories Of Healing: Cyndie & Dusty Gillingham

You're listening to the Pure Desire Podcast, your safe place to find hope, healing, and freedom from sexual addiction, betrayal, and relationship issues.

All right, well, welcome back. I'm Ashley Jamison here, and you are listening to episode 242 of the Pure Desire Podcast, Women's Takeover. And here joining me is my lovely co host, Heather Kolb.

I am gonna miss this. We had four episodes that we got to do without the guys and talk about women's things and. And betrayal, trauma, and all kinds of stuff that we don't get to talk about that much, and now we're gonna be done.

I know. Do you hear that? We're gonna miss it.

We're gonna miss it.

We're gonna miss you guys. All right, before we get into today's episode, here's a few things. Subscribe to the podcast. If you're not subscribed to the podcast, do it, don't wait. You can find us on all major platforms, and please give us a review. It helps more people see the podcast. Lot to us. Follow us on social media. You can do that by following us on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, @ PureDesire, PDMI, and if you like to consume video content, the full episodes are available on YouTube. Just search Pure Desire Ministries. Well, today's episode was definitely close to my heart. I am so excited to share Cindy and Dusty with our listeners. Cindy was part of my unraveled group, and they just have a beautiful story of how they navigated her fair and Dusty as the husband who experienced betrayal trauma. And they were so vulnerable and so encouraging, and it was just such a pleasure to have them on.

It was so good. In fact, I felt myself just tearing up a couple times as they're talking and even listening to Dusty explain some of the things that he went through following betrayal. And I could just so resonate with that, too, because I felt those things. But sometimes I think that we just need somebody to put the words to what we're feeling. And he did such a great job.

Yeah, I just. I really hope. Whether you're a man who's been betrayed or female or a female struggler or a male struggler, I think you'll get something out of this episode. Um, it's just real. It's just raw, and it's really beautiful. So here is our time with Cindy and Dusty Gillingham. All right, well, today we have some special guests here to share their story of healing. We have Cindy and Dusty Gillingham, and we are very excited that you guys could join us. This feels like such a privilege. So thank you for taking time out of your busy day with your kids and your jobs and wiggling everything around to be here with us.

Yeah. Thanks for having us.

Thank you.

Yeah.

Well, let's just jump in because I feel like I want to know more of your story. I've heard a little bit of your story, but really excited just to. Just to get to hear some other aspects of it. And so just from the beginning, can you tell us a little bit about how. Just a little bit about your story and how you found pure desire?

Yeah. So I would say to kind of make our story make sense, but not make it too long. Dusty and I have been married for 16 years. And 14 years into our marriage, he found out that I was being unfaithful. And that all started, I would say, even years back into my childhood, just learning. Not learning, I guess, how to be honest and learning just how to kind of fake my way through life and scenarios and having different life experiences that kind of shaped who I was that I brought into marriage. And unbeknownst to Dusty, he thought we had a great marriage and that everything was fine. But I just had. I just had a lot of wounds that I had never worked through that I didn't know how to work through that ended up allowing me to walk in infidelity for some years. And I was able to just fake all that through our marriage. And he had no idea what was going on. And then finally I got to the point where I was so sick of lying and faking life that I talked to a family member that I confided in, and she encouraged me to just, if there was a glimmer of hope, to fight for my glimmer of hope. But first I needed to come clean. And at the same time, I was having this conversation with this family member he was hunting, and the Lord spoke to him. And I'll let you explain that part.

Yeah, it was pretty interesting, actually, because kind of, like she explained, I. When I said I had no idea, because I think a lot of times you'll, you know, like, people will look from the outside in that a marriage, and they'll be like, but you kind of had an idea, right? Like something was going on. And that just was not the case here. The word blindside doesn't even do it justice, right? And so I had no idea. And I went hunting. I was supposed to be hunting with a friend. And at the last day, like, we literally had our trucks packed. He couldn't end up going with me, so I ended up going by myself. And it actually became this, like, really big spirit quest. Like, we or I was. I kept hiking to this, like, same spot, and I didn't even know why. And, you know, like, I don't know if God's talked to me audibly a lot in my life where I felt like it was loud enough to be audible, right? But this one was really clear that something was coming. And when I was there and I'm in this spot on this mountain, and I could just hear him. And I knew what it was. And I didn't really believe it at first. I didn't really, like, kind of, like, dive into that is, like, actually real. But what he said to me, too, was, like, you think this is hard climbing up this mountain? You need me. And, I mean, it was a big mountain. I climbed up there twice that day, which was. I was really just kind of wandering. And so, you know, like, kind of fast forward a little bit. I was driving home, and I just kept getting his nudge that I needed to ask her if she had been unfaithful to me. And so we. You know, when we got home, I. You know, like, I could just tell, like, the way that she confronted me and, like, seeing me, there was not a lot of excitement. There was not this piece. And then, like, one of her friends came over to pick up something. There was tons of excitement. And, I mean, my radar was just, like, going off like crazy, like, something is wrong. And even whenever I. I didn't want to ask her, but God kept nudging me to ask her. And to the point where, like, I even. Our girls were in the bathtub, you know, And I just. I could not hold back anymore. I had to ask her. And I still was like, I mean, she's gonna say no. Like, that's crazy, right? And she just shook her head yes. After that, it kind of got dark, so.

It got real dark. Yeah. And things just kind of snowballed out of control from there, and I ended up moving out in. In that time frame, I didn't know if I wanted to stay in the marriage. I kind of. I was mentally kind of done and checked out. And we. I just started kind of grasping at straws, trying to figure out how did I get to where I got. Trying to figure out if I want to stay. What's that gonna look like? How are we gonna do this? Could he ever forgive me? Could God ever forgive me? Could I forgive myself? It just felt easier. Like, let's just walk away, you know? Let's just forget, just move on. But I just had this, like, my family member that I confided, and she said, if there's a glimmer of hope, fight for that glimmer of hope. And so I just started listening to different podcasts, and I ended up listening one that had Rick and Tiffany Bulman on it. And they have written the book called Mended, and it's their story of her being unfaithful and how they mended their marriage. And I emailed her, and I was like, tiffany, this is my situation too. What. What do I do? What do you recommend? And she put me to Pure Desires. She said, you need to go to Pure Desires. You need to get in a group, you need to get counseling, you need to get help. And so I decided that I needed to do that. I needed to try to fight for the marriage. It took some time to get there, Dusty. All the while, the whole time was like, I don't know how, but someday I'll forgive you. And I want this marriage and I want you, and I think you're worth it. And that was something he said over and over again, was you're worth it. Which was really.

Yeah, yeah.

You know, she talked about having that glimmer of hope, and I think for some reason, God gave me that hope. I could see. I could see it. And I knew. I knew it wasn't her or her character that was deep in there that was doing those actions, and I knew that there was more to it than that. And that she. She. I knew she didn't want that life. And so holding onto that piece of it, I definitely pushed in to try and get through that.

That's pretty incredible. I mean. Yeah. For him to know that this is gonna be something that I want and I'm gonna work for, even in that moment of desperation. And I love how you share how God kind of prepared you for something coming and you could feel it coming, and that's pretty amazing. So, Cindy, then. Then what happened? Why did you decide to join an unraveled group? And what about it did you learn? And maybe what surprised you? I mean, because you're going into this just with your glimmer of hope, right? And not really knowing what's going to happen.

Yeah. And I didn't even know what to expect. I was one of the. I was in the first unraveled group. The book had just come out. The material was brand new, and once Tiffany said that was a route I needed to go, I knew I needed something that was going to be sexual integrity specific, not just a general counselor. Before I joined Pure Desires, I did. I went to psychologist. We were doing marriage counseling. That wasn't very helpful because our counselor wasn't a specialist and in infidelity and recovery or sexual brokenness at all. And so when Tiffany suggested to go to Pure Desires and I blindly joined the group, I didn't know how long it was. I didn't know what I was getting myself into. That I think that was a big surprise to me was the commitment piece of this is nine or ten months long because it takes that long to change the neurological pathways and to implement changes and create new habits. And I think that was one of the surprising parts was all the tools that Unraveled gave me that I could start implementing into my life. And one of the biggest ones that I tell everybody when I share our story was learning how to be honest again. Like here I was in my late 30s and I'm trying to figure out how to be honest in everyday day to day life. And I was so lucky to have you as my leader, Ashley. And for you to even give these little mundane examples of being honest in every little bit. Even when we are going to the grocery store and our kid walks out with a bag of chips and it is only a dollar, who cares? But it does matter. Every little decision matters, especially in the recovery process and learning to be honest in all aspects of life. And I think just the tools from the Unraveled program, I still use them every, every day. I am still using my Unravel tools that I learned from Group.

Yeah, that is so great. So we know that the recovery work isn't easy. Um, so what was it? Can you even pull out a couple things that were the most challenging to you while you were going through Unraveled? And just even that group process, um.

The opening up and sharing my story with other women was really hard and scary. But the fact that we're all in it together and the way that material is laid out, that it's not like, okay, share your story.

Go.

It just kind of gradually helped you figure out who you are, figure out how you got to where you got so that you could share your story in these little chunks. Then we got to, since we're all there for sexual brokenness, we're all struggling. There was no shame or judgment. And I think that was just such a beautiful piece of the Unraveled experience was you never felt that judgment, even though you're so scared to talk about it. And I think the enemy does that on purpose. Like he wants us to stay hidden and he wants us to stay closed off. And that's what I'd been doing for so many years. I'd been practicing hiding. Like, I was. We were leading a life group, and I was in a mom's group, and I was in leadership on that. Like, I was learning how to wear all the right masks and say all the right things, so nobody knew my secrets all the while. Like, I never felt safe to open up and share these secrets, and I didn't know how to. Either was part of it. I didn't know how to have vulnerability in that.

Yeah. And that's so hard. You know, that's why I'm so thankful that you guys are willing to come on here, because there are a lot of women who are in your same position or have been, and maybe the behaviors are done, but they were never able to work through what happened or. Or learn tools or. Or figure out why they went that route. Which means that there's also so many husbands out there that experience betrayal, trauma. We get those calls. Um, but it's really hard to step out and ask for help. And so the podcast is a safe, you know, anonymous way that somebody can at least maybe get that glimmer of hope that you had just enough to take the next step. And so I really appreciate you guys being here and for you, Dusty, to be here, because there are men out there that need to hear that. Need to hear that there are men who've been there and. And they're still with their wives, and they're moving forward in healing and recovery. So, Dusty, what did you think about Cindy's group experience, and how do you think it helped contribute to your healing from betrayal?

Yeah. You know, it's kind of funny with a lot of things in life are presented with a choice. Right. And so at times, it hurt. It hurt to think about why she was there. And if I ended up focusing on that piece of my narrative, that, you know, she's there because of what she did. You know, what is she even talking about? Is she talking about them? Does she miss them? And I could end up seeing myself spiraling and going down that path every time I saw her at each week in group. At the same token, sometimes whenever I was in a healthier state or doing better, I could choose to see what was happening in front of me, which was her taking the time to try and change something. And at a time in your life when just about nothing really makes you feel safe. And feeling safe is really what's gonna lead to us having more connection and us Having and healing and even having my own healing. You're not really gonna heal unless you feel safe internally. Right. And so this was, like, one piece of it because, like, she mentioned she did psychology, and she would leave, and whenever she would leave the house, my radar is going off like crazy. Right. Because it was so early on after finding out, and I didn't even still know what was going on. I didn't barely know how to stand up at that point. But whenever it was here, she was doing it all online, and so she would set up in the house or whatever. And even with the homework, I could see her doing the homework and getting up early to put the time in to do it. And how serious that she took it actually gave me a little bit of comfort in that time frame because I could have a visual of her doing, healing and practicing that piece of it. And so, yeah, when times like that, I mean, because it was still pretty early on, I think you started when in.

It was like four or five months after I recommitted to the marriage.

Yeah. So, I mean, we're still in a pretty messy state there. So, I mean, just. Just that whole safety factor of just like, something, just anything to hold on to. And not only that, too, is that, you know, like, with the psychologist you're going, it sometimes ends up being talk therapy, and she's just kind of there, meeting with one person, one on one, and they're really just kind of diving into specifics of, like, why she's there or whatever. But with a group, she had accountability. I would. She'd be like, texting, and of course I'm asking, who you texting? Right, right. And she's like, oh, it's so and so from group. And so at that same token, I also knew that there was people, and not only just one, but, like, multiple people that are going to be asking her each week, hey, did you lie this week? Yeah, that was another one. I couldn't remember what it was called, but you had the thing where you had to, like, track even, like, the little white lies or whatever.

Yeah.

And that was one piece of the program that I saw, like, immediate results on her, with her. Because I would watch her, like, in the grocery store with the kids. Like, if one of them walked out with a sucker in their hand, she'd just be like, just get in the car or fast forward to when she's in this, and she's like, that's. That's an Eliza. We got to go back. We have to pay for this. And all that other stuff, So I started to see those things happen. So, yeah, you know, it just. It bottles back down to that choice. Like, if I was doing well and had good therapy of my own that week and could choose to look at something beautiful, like somebody healing, then that's what I would see. But I don't want to also paint the picture of, like, yeah, your wife gets in a group, then you're going to be good to go.

Right.

There are other pieces that are still really challenging, which is why she was there.

I think you touch on something so important, too, that it really does. Like, it really does take the family to heal it. It couldn't be just Cindy going to group. You talk about how you had to do your own work and how you could have good weeks and harder weeks. And it's so important, if anybody's listening, that both people seek their own healing and recovery because, you know, harm has been done, and you can hold both those things in the same space. You can feel like you want to leave, and you can feel like you want to fight for your marriage on the same day, and sometimes at the same time that you can have both those pieces, and you just hope that you continue to work and the side of reconciliation and trust starts to build more. And then when you talk about being able to see her do her work, that's something that, you know, having led betrayal and beyond groups for women and then unraveled for women, I can't overemphasize that. That, you know, what you. The harm that was done was in secret. And so as much as you can bring out so that your spouse can visually see you, working on your recovery can be very, very helpful, because you do get to start seeing those things that you weren't able to see before. So that's really. I mean, you guys have really leaned into the work, and it shows.

Yeah. Which is so great. I mean, if you guys were to each say, you know, just going through the process of recovery and healing, how have you noticed that it impacted your. Your relationship and then your family? Because you mentioned that you have a couple girls. And so what have you seen come out of this process?

Yeah, I would all speak to our relationship, part of it. I feel like through this healing journey and the counseling and the work that we're doing, we're learning how to be more open, honest, and vulnerable. I didn't realize it until our counselor pointed out that I'm not an empathetic person. And I was actually offended when he said that. I was like, what do you mean? Of Course, I'm empathetic, but I had to learn how to have empathy for Dusty, and I had to learn how to hear his emotions and validate them. And I still struggle. I'm not perfect at it. And at the same time, he had to learn how to hear me. And we both had to learn our emotions. And that was a big one for us and us learning our emotions. It's helped us teach our two girls how to feel their emotions and vocalize them and for us to validate them. Because a lot of parents, when kids are whining or have a problem, are like, you're fine, you're fine. But now we're learning how to say, what's going on? What's really going on with you? Did you have a bad day? Did someone say something mean? And I feel like both of us have been able to be better parents in this process of learning just how to feel our feelings.

That is so good.

Yeah, that's. That is. I know, for me, one of the biggest pieces that were worth it, being able to change things for your kids.

Yeah. Yeah. One of the things that I was going to kind of highlight, too, is, like, even already seeing that stuff in our kids, you know, something that wasn't quite on the radar as far as, like, you know, if they come in crying, like she was saying, or, like, I had a bad dream. Oh, you're fine. Just go get in bed. Well, they're really not fine. If you remember when you had a bad dream when you were a little kid, you were legitimately afraid.

Yeah.

And so connecting with that piece, saying, like, yeah, I remember whenever I was afraid, too. And so these are, like, the things that we're learning for ourselves to try and, like, help the marriage survive, but also getting to practice with our kids. But not only that, like, one of the things that we did kind of that as a family and together is really try and take the easy pickings of all the things that were really just a foothold for the devil to, like, instill into the marriage. Right. And so, I mean, we started talking about honesty way more with the kids or, like, bad TV shows or whatever. Like, that's bad music. That stuff was gonna go because it's like, well, there's this is. The stakes are too high right now to be middling in that. And so. And also, I don't, you know, clearly, like, heightened. I don't want this for my girls, you know, and we actually got a pretty good example of this the other day. We got a phone call from the school Counselor that our little girl was being rough or mean and even like she used the word bullying to another girl. So she got pulled into the counselor's office and they asked her, you know, have you been mean to this little girl? And she said yes. And she said yes with, with a broken heart too. This is how the counselor presented it to us. And she said the first thing that caught her off guard was she didn't expect her to say yes because the kids never say yes. They lie about it. And so here's my kid being honest. And I tuned out after that. I was like, I don't care if she's bullying a kid. We'll figure that out. She probably could probably be annoying anyway. But my kid was honest and that's what I cared about.

Yeah.

And so we're already starting to see that. You know, we talk about, do we keep secrets in this home? And no. And we have our thing that I do with the girls, I call it the G code. And it's like kindness, love, forgiveness and honesty, honesty, generosity. And so. And I always ask them, do you stick to the code today? You know, and stuff like that. So we just heightened all that stuff with them. So yeah.

Also in our friendships, it's been a game changer. We have such deeper relationships with people now. There's less just frivolous talk, like, you know, the light hearted, everyday conversations. It's more real conversations. We're still we. After we worked on ourselves and took some time, we went back to leading a life group. And the first thing that we did whenever we restarted our life group was share our story.

Yeah.

And it opened up so many of these marriages to like, what's going on with us. We need help. We need counselors counseling. Even a few guys admitted to having porn addiction and shared it with the other men in the group, not with the ladies. But it just opened up our friendships to this whole new level of vulnerability because we shared our story. We went first, we were willing to talk about it.

That is so beautiful. I know that people who get to experience a good, healthy group because we know there can be sometimes groups that aren't as great. But when you experience that good, healthy group and you get a lifetime bond with people, it kind of ruins you for other groups that don't open up. You're like, I want to come in here and shake the waters and have people just what's really going on? Not that you want everybody to have deep, dark secrets, but everybody has struggles, everybody has pain. And there's something so genuine about Doing real life together with people and knowing that you can be honest and it just, it's life changing. Okay, Dusty, this one's for you. And you kind of touched on a little bit. Lots of our research that we have on betrayal trauma is done on women. Studies are done on women. Just like a lot of the porn and addiction research we have a lot of times has been done on men. And we're starting to see that open up for both sides now and recognize that these are people issues. Our world is saturated and the struggles are real for both sides. So what are some of the physical, spiritual, emotional, mental. What are some of the effects that you had from experiencing betrayal?

Such a weighted question.

I know, I know, but it's like we have a guy. Yeah, tell us.

Yeah, you know, everything. Every aspect of that question is going to really change in your life. I mean, the physical one's kind of easy to explain. I mean, I'm about 6 foot 165 pounds. Ish. Like when I was just found out about all this stuff and I went down to £145 in less than.

Wow.

I mean physically. And didn't sleep for three days right off the bat. And so, you know, like the physical toll that it takes on your body is a very real thing. And that also plays into the mental part of it too because like, I mean, I'm a pretty healthy person. At least I think of myself as a healthy person. And I knew I needed to eat, I knew I needed to go exercise and do things to try and keep myself just in the best shape of, you know, like something to feed the body what it needed. Right. I just couldn't. I tried to put food in my mouth and it just wouldn't work. Other physical things I remember I got this like weird eye twitch and things that just were like. And it still kind of happens actually. As my anxiety goes up, my eyes start switching and that never happened before. All this stuff just really weird things on the body that it does because of the trauma that's associated with it and you know, mental aspect. I've always considered myself like a pretty strong willed person. I do a lot of things in my life that are goal oriented that, you know, strive to be better, like racing and that kind of stuff too. And this was no different where I felt like, you know, like I could do this, I can do this. But the. I just don't even know how to explain it. Just how different it is to prayer for something physically is really not what you get hit with whenever it's Betrayal. And so like now all of a sudden, these words. And I know this sounds shallow and I hate to even say it, but like, to me, I didn't even know if I really believed in panic attacks before all this happened.

Yeah.

Even depression to an extent. I was just like, do something about it. Yeah, just go do something about it. Like, you know what it takes to be healthier and go do it. But now that I have something in my life that I carry that can keep me in that state, you don't realize how bad it paralyzes you to actually try and do the things that would really help you. And so, I mean, I just feel so guilty about the thoughts and feelings that I had about that, about other people that would say that they had problems like that. Right. And so, yeah, so panic attacks were a real thing. Parts of my vocabulary. Like, I mean, I'm pretty happy I. Most of the time and. Or was before all this. And. And now there's things in my vocabulary of like, you know, I just don't know if life's even worth it anymore. Like, you start saying things like that too. Right. And so your thoughts get extremely dark whenever something that you valued so much and something you believed in so much was completely not true. You know, I've told my counselor, lots of people that I just don't think there's anything harder than being betrayed by your spouse. You know, I said it a lot of times and I actually still mean it, that I think losing a kid would be easier than dealing with this, as hard as that sounds, you know, but it's. To me, that was the truth. And then spiritually, you know, CS Lewis said that painting is God's megaphone to a death world. Right. And it is without a doubt true that you are going to listen and seek God if you turn that way. And whenever. Whenever it hits. Right. So, I mean, if God was mad, don't get me wrong, that God many, many times. But parts of my life were spiritually growing up until this point. So when I look back in my, you know, like, how did we get here? And if I look for God's goodness, I can see preparation for this piece of it. And so my connection with God and everything, that kind of changed, even back to that mountain top spot. Like, I mean, I have known God for quite some time. Like in high school is whenever I started believing in that faith and choosing that path for my life. So I'd known him for a while, but I'd never met him. And that day I met him.

Wow.

So it just really does change your spiritual aspect. But I believe in the preparation, you know, that he's going to take that to the point where you start to see much more of life in a different way. And there's just so much more to this puzzle that's going to be unwrapped.

Wow. Thank you so much for sharing that, you guys. If you're not watching the video, I mean, Cindy and Dusty, they're both athletes. So to have these beautiful, strong people on here, we think that it, you know, it doesn't happen to people like you mops, group and, you know, you've got these two beautiful girls and. And it. And it does. And I love what you guys said in one of your earlier quest, your earlier answers of, you know, life is difficult and Satan's sneaky. So just eliminate the obvious ones like it, you know, eliminate the easy ones where, you know, you can be vulnerable and just. You're never going to regret over protecting your marriage because. Because of how bad the fracture is. And so, you know, just do the hard work. Be overprotective. Let people think you're weird, you know, because you guys don't do that or you don't use apps or you guys don't go to this place or it's okay because your marriage is so valuable. And I just appreciate you, Dusty, being so vulnerable because it really, you know, it really affects, like, betrayal. Trauma is real. It just rocks the body. It's not overreaction. It's not being dramatic. It's not, you know, so much of what you described, I felt too. And, you know, and it's like, why is my hair falling out? Why am I not able to function? I've always held it together. And so it's just such a real thing that affects us physically, mentally, spiritually, emotionally. So thank you for being vulnerable with that.

Yeah, absolutely. And so, Dusty, then what did you do to pursue your healing? So, um, Cindy had gone into group and so what did that look like for you?

So one of those pieces that I think is important to remember is like, we tried to really hard to clean out a lot of the stuff in our lives. You know, one of the things that I didn't even do consistently was, like, time. And I'm like, I don't care about money at this point, so I'm going to do that too. I'm just going to give that to God and, you know, like music. I. I love me some Wu Tang Clan, but, you know, like, Wu Tang had to go. I know, right? Funny, right? No, it's true, but. So those are the, like the baby steps, right? But I knew I had a good mentor in my life, and I had that ahead of time. And he would talk to me a lot about getting specific type of help or whatever. And I knew that what I was experiencing was trauma. I did know that. And I somehow, I actually don't even know how I got somebody recommended emdr. I don't remember how. And so I used our EAP plan through work, which actually a ton of companies have them these days. They just never talk about them. They're such a good benefit. And we got a certain amount of free sessions. And so that pointed me to a list of counselors and I just started calling them. And I'm just like, hey, this is what happened. Can you help me? Hey, this is what happened. Can you help me? And kind of phone screened them. And I got. I mean, I hit the jackpot with a counselor. She is just phenomenal. And so we started doing EMDR early on and did it for a long time and worked through a lot of, like, just my own personal stuff. And really that was the biggest source of what I tried to track with healing. But to caveat that on the. On day one, she basically interviewed me and said, you know, like, how's the family life outside of our family? Like my parents and all that other stuff? How is your friend structure and support structure and all of their stuff? And that was easy for me. You know, like, I, like I mentioned I had a really good mentor. And he. I mean, I don't know if you have these kind of people in your life. When he's talk, he just spews wisdom. And so having a resource like that in my life would through some really heavy stuff, it was very similar. I had. I was just totally the grace of God gifted with a really amazing boss. And I also shared an office with another guy who's a really, really good friend of mine still to this day, and both spiritually connected to God. And so I had these things in place. You know, I have two loving parents, I have a sister that would absolutely die for me. And so I had all these things in place. And I'm telling her that she's like, good. We usually take a year to get there with most of the other clients. So now let's move on to the work. And so I did EMDR for quite a while. And one of the things that we did do is we. I don't know if it's called traditional EMDR or whatever, but it was different and we switched to what's called the Flash technique. And she did that based off of, like, recent research. And maybe you guys know more about that or whatever, but I just know from the experience. And the Flash technique was absolutely better. Like, the original way that we were doing it. I would leave counseling and I would just be like, literally, like, I got ran over by a tractor, could not come out of it for at least a few days. But I still believe in the healing part of it. I still think if you're doing emdr, it is beneficial. I just had where the Flash technique, I would leave feeling elevated and like, in just on a different platform. And, like, why did we not do this earlier? Well, she didn't have the data, and so when she finally read some of the documentation on the data for it, she just like, let's try this different method. She was just curious, you know, like, you know, I want to see if it works better with you. And I was like, first session, like, I mean, we're definitely not going back.

And.

But not only that. Like, you know, she's specifically a trauma therapist, but she was just. I mean, I still see her to this day and still just such a good resource in my life for that. And on top of that, too, I'm a pretty open person, clearly getting on your podcast. So I didn't hold back asking for help, you know, like, and I think that part is how I was raised, you know, like, my mom is very loving and giving, and so I would, you know, lean into that. And so even with this mentor of mine and my co worker, my boss, like, they literally did my work for me. So I get that that's a blessing and different. Not everybody has that. But at the same token, if you're like, pursuing life and life is going good, are you doing the things to set yourself up to be ready for something so big and heavy? Do you have that support network? Do you have that kind of structure in your life where you're, you know, just trying to be ready for something that whenever life hits, because it's going to hit, right? Like, we know that in any way, shape or form, maybe not always this way, but in some way, it's going to hit. It's going to hurt.

Yeah, we need to have that support structure. We need to have people we can reach out to. And I know every event we do, it's like our ending words are like, have a couple people that know everything about, you know, what's going on that you can be real with. And it's because life Will throw you ups and downs. And for those of you who don't know, I'll probably butcher this because I'm not the brain person. Heather is. EMDR is eye movement desensitization reprocessing, and it's connecting basically the right and left side of the brain while you're processing through a memory trauma for deeper healing, something along those lines, look it up. It's good stuff. My son's done.

Does feel really weird. Whenever you start. You start doing it, you're like, how could this possibly help me? But, you know, like, I do think.

The research is there, so, yeah, it does help.

And, you know, like, after quite a bit of time of practicing it, I definitely saw. Started to see the benefits.

Yeah. Yeah.

Well, our couple of our clinicians on Pure Desire staff use emdr. And so. And it's great.

Yeah. And I remember even, I mean, for side note, this is free, you guys. So if you have little kids, our therapist had told us, you know, when I'm talking to my kids about their feelings, even just like squeezing their shoulders left, right, left, right, left, right, like, those kinds of things are so good to do. Or give them one of those kush balls, you know? And, yeah, it's just really good stuff. So for today and Cindy, we've been trying to get you guys on the podcast forever. I mean, we haven't been trying, I guess, but we want. Me and you, we wanted you on this. Yeah, we wanted this on you, on here. And so what does it look like for you guys today in life? Relationships, family, recovery, healing. You've already shared a little bit about that. But the extra part I want you to add in is what did you do after Unraveled? Because Dusty shared a little bit about how he, God, just really surrounded him and because of his family and who he is and being an open book, that he had this support network kind of ready to go for something traumatic in life and have all these people to help him. And I really believe for those of us who don't have that, like me, once we discover our healing and. And what it takes and that we need people, I feel like there's this call on us to try to help be that for somebody else who they don't know, that they need that, and we get to be that. And so I want you to talk about what life and recovery and family and all that looks like for you guys now. But also, what did you go do for your women in your community after you were done with Unravel? Because I think it's such a beautiful thing.

Yeah. I mean, Dusty did mention we just really cleaned up the little things in our life. I think a big one that people bypass all the time is social media.

Yes.

We just allow everybody to be friends with us and we don't even filter. Who are these people and are they important to be in it? I think it's so important for couples to be able to look at each other's social media account and help each other. Each other clean it up. Women really don't need to have a bunch of men on their social media accounts. And we need to be careful with what we're posting. We cut out social media altogether and it's been a game changer. It's been such a beautiful thing not to have that distraction in the life. Social media. I mean, there's so many great things about it, but there's a lot of negative things too. I think for us it was just overall better just to cut it all out. Dusty mentioned TV shows and movies. We don't really watch anything rated R anymore. If it is, we want to know, like, why is it rated R? We don't want to have the sex scenes coming into our eyes and into our living room. We really are intentional with our girls. Like we talked about earlier, that was a big one. We've continued counseling. We still go twice a month. And then I personally go to counseling as well twice a month. And we're. We work on a lot of just basic marriage stuff now, just how to have a good marriage. And sometimes affair related stuff will come up, but sometimes it's just like everyday life stuff like how do we handle this and manage this or how do we help our kids with things. It definitely was affair focused for the first, what year? 18 months maybe.

I mean, we talked about the affair like last month.

True.

It's on a PRN basis.

We had to do some, obviously we had to do some work for intimacy, to rebuild intimacy in the marriage. That was intentional work. We had to go through and work on that.

Yeah.

And it's hard. It's not like, okay, we're back in the marriage, let's just go to the bedroom.

Yeah.

It was really challenging to. To be able to reconnect and be intimate again and open our hearts and be vulnerable. Oh, alcohol. Yep. Alcohol was a big one. And that was something I worked through with Pure Desires a lot. With what are the things that hold me down? What are my vices? And with Pure Desires and the unravel group, we went through them one by one and I realized in that drinking, it's just not worth it. It's not worth. Didn't make Dusty comfortable. Drinking just doesn't bring good choices. Oftentimes we just don't have one. We have one or two or three. So that was a big one that we just eliminated altogether in our marriage. And not that everybody has to, but you really have to evaluate why, why am I drinking? What's the purpose for it? And moving forward, I did have a big heart for women and helping women in the community, and I knew I needed time to heal. And so right after Pure Desires, one of the girls from the group and I decided that we were just going to do accountability with each other. And we became really close. We were really open with things that we were struggling with. We would check in with each other often and make sure we still had that accountability. And then eventually, after some time passed, Pure Desires came out with the material sexual integrity 101. And I went to the leadership training for Pure Desires and I talked to my church about it. I went to my church and I said, this is what's going on and this is what we went through. And I want to help women who struggle with this. And here's the material. And the care pastor contacted Pure Desires and I think she talked to you, Ashley, or somebody there about, about the material and what it was all about. And they decided to support me on leading a Pure Desires group through the church. And that's hard. It's hard to lead that stuff.

Do.

It on the big, big scale of things, because Sexual integrity is only eight week long, whereas Unraveled is 10, about 10 months long. And so I've already. I've led three sessions, and every time I finish, I'm like, oh, my gosh, that was so hard. I don't know if I want to do it again, but I just feel.

Like.

The Lord keeps putting it on my heart that I need to keep offering this for those women who are struggling. And not that I have it together, but it's beautiful because the Peer Desires put it all together in this nice package where there's a workbook and videos and I just have to hit play and facilitate discussion. And that's been. And it's challenging too, in our marriage sometimes. I mean, I know you guys feel that in your marriages when you lead sometimes that it's not just leading a group, it's leading a really hard group.

That'S impacted on marriage.

And so we often have to go into that tenderly and pray over it a lot because we know that Season of leading the group is going to be a little bit challenging for us too. But it opens up discussion. We get to keep talking. I feel like each other time, it's a healing step forward in our marriage. And I really just pray that God continues to give us that ability to lead the group because I really don't feel like it's just me. Like I have to have him and his support to do that.

Absolutely, yeah.

Anything else you would add to that?

Yeah, I mean, as far as her leading the group or whatever, there is challenging pieces to that too, that we're. That'll bring triggers up for me on days that I don't want them.

Yeah, yeah.

And you know, there's also like secondary trauma and stuff like that too, where sometimes it'll flare up either in me or her as part of that. And so it is really hard to manage and very taxing at times. But on a token of that, like, if I look just like from a 10,000 foot view, and I think that there's other families and women out there that are struggling with that, and then I think of the guy like me on the other side of that, like, oh my gosh, I'd give anything for them not to feel. So whenever it comes down to that, again, the stakes are too high. There's kids on the other side of that family and you know, like, if. If you got exhausted at some point in that and then the unraveled group didn't ever exist, then would we be sitting here today? I don't know. Maybe.

But.

But there's a part of that that might be maybe not too. Right. So a lot of that is where I try and like, take that to my own healing and my own counselor and how do I work through this, that this is actually a part of our journey now.

So, yeah, it's a. It's a balance you have to hold for sure. And it does. I mean, I. It's every Thursday night when I'm like, I have to get up at five to lead this unraveled group. And then by the end I'm just like, these are real people hanging on with their one glimmer of hope. Yeah. You know, husbands with feet out the door and kids estranged and. Yeah, it just keeps you going. So. Yeah, this is good.

I know. So good. So what would you guys say? And I would like to hear from both of you, what would you tell a couple who has a similar story to you but is really afraid to step out and get the help that they need?

What? What?

How would you Encourage them.

I know what you're gonna say, so go ahead.

No, you go first.

I know she's gonna say specialized healing. You know, like, she had mentioned earlier that we. We had a counselor that we were seeing prior to all this kind of coming out. I don't even really feel like any of that was really counseling because she was completely dishonest during all of that anyways. And, I mean, we were, like. We were working through things. It was like me being okay with her drinking. That was like, what we were trying to, like, hone in on. You see how broken it was. Right. And then whenever it all came out, we kind of kept the same counselor and still tried to limb through. How do we deal with this? And she really was the one that was pushing, like, because she read that book and all those pieces to it, like, we really need some sort of different kind of help here. And she wasn't wrong. We never really, like, kind of navigated towards that in our own marriage counseling. Just kind of the way our journey unfolded. But if you are out there and in this situation, specialized help goes a long ways. Um, and some of the other couples that we've had that we've helped through their stuff because we've been open about our story. People know about our story. They come and ask us. Even that counselor that was. She had a couple come to her and said, hey, you guys are dealing with this. Would you mind talking with them? You know, and so we did. And now we're still really good friends with them, but they went. Got specialized help whenever they had recommitment to their marriage and everything. And there were a lot of pieces of that that I was jealous about because we were still dealing with it. Right. And so I do think that that's one area that be super important, is specialized health.

Really good advice.

Yeah.

Even the cost of it. I know, it's expensive. Pure Desires was expensive, too. But it. I would say it's worth taking out of the loan if you have to, if it's going to save your marriage. And if you're both willing, it takes two willing hearts. One can't force the other to do it. So even if just one person is willing to do it, that one person should go. Should just start working on it and just pay it. Just make it happen. Because the stakes are too high, like Dusty said. And getting that recovery, that true recovery, even just for women, single women who struggle with sexual integrity issues that we had in our group, Ashley, like, they don't have a spouse attached to it, but they're still in there doing the work. And I think that's so important to get that healing. And it has to be with a specialist in the field who knows exactly what you're going through and the pain and the trauma and the wounds that have to be healed. And so I would just say do the work. It takes a long time. We're about three years after. Since I've recovered, since I've recommitted to the marriage. We're about three years in and it. We're still working on it. And don't they say it's three to five years?

I don't like time frames.

There's no time frame. There's no time frame. You guys are doing great.

If you heard three to five years, erase that. Just. It's gonna be what your journey is gonna.

It's gonna be what your journey is.

And that is. I mean, that's one thing that I would say say to somebody else is take comparison away. Let your journey be your journey and do what it takes in your life to be the best you. I was listening to Craig Groeschel and reading one of his books. I'm a huge fan of Craig Groeschel and he's, you know, one of the things in his new book is winning the war on your mind is you get what you're looking for, you find what you're looking for. And so for me, like, I could look in the past and I could see. See brokenness and I can see all this stuff or even now, right? Like, I could. If I'm looking for me as a victim and, you know, that are. I can't believe we went through this and all that stuff, or I can see healing and I can see somebody who decided to own a mistake, repent from it, commit to something, and like, who better to be married to, right? Like to have somebody like that in your life that would be that kind of person, to own that kind of mistake, right? And so you get what you're looking for, is what I'm saying. If you're in this situation, look for God's goodness, because it is there.

So good. Don't cry. I have a lot of mascara on.

I love it.

Oh, so good. I mean, I personally feel like this was so good. And I truly, truly believe this is going to reach men and women that are in those same situations that you guys were in three to four years ago, and they're gonna feel that glimmer of hope that they need to move forward in their health. So I cannot thank you guys. Enough for sharing your story with us.

I know.

Vulnerable. I know. I told you you didn't have to share anything you didn't want to, and you guys gave me more than I wanted. I know.

I love it.

Yeah. Really good. Thank you, guys.

Well, thanks for having us on. And we are just so grateful for pure desires. You both are amazing. And anybody who gets the opportunity to work with you is so blessed. Just by both of you, opening your lives and sharing your stories is the reason why we are sitting here. If you guys hadn't put that book together and started unraveled, if Ashley didn't go through what she went through and her journey and her story, we wouldn't be sitting here. And we just pray that the brokenness and pain that we went through can help others. That God can use that for his glory in helping others find healing in their brokenness in some way.

Yes. Yeah.

Thank you.

Amen to that. And remember, wherever you're at on your journey, pure desire is here to help create a roadmap for healing. If you or someone you know is impacted by sexual brokenness or betrayal trauma, go to PureDesire.org and let's start the healing journey today. Don't forget to subscribe to the podcast. Each week we put out new content to help you on the road to healing and freedom. And lastly, never stop being healthy.