243 - Spiritual Bypass w/ Dr. Craig Cashwell

You're listening to the Pure Desire Podcast, your safe place to find hope, healing, and freedom from sexual addiction, betrayal, and relationship issues.

Hello. Hello.

I'm your host, Trevor Windsor, and you're listening to episode 243 of the Pure Desire podcast here. Joining me, as always, back in person, my co host, Nick Stumbo.

Happy, happy, happy.

I, um. Okay, so I think of Uncle Si. Yeah. From Duck.

Duck Dynasty. I think that's the first time I've used Duck Dynasty, which is surprising to me because there's so much quotable material from those guys.

Goodness. Now with peanut oil, that could be your next one. Oh, gosh. Uncle Si and his sweet tea. That is amazing. I think I own, like, the first two or three seasons on DVD. You remember DVDs, those things?

We still own some.

Oh, okay, cool. Me too. Anyways, today. Today might be one of my favorite episodes we've ever done, and it's because I love this man that we had on. We had on Dr. Craig Cashewell. And we'll talk a little bit about more of who he is and what he does. But we had him on to talk about something that he's passionate about, something we've talked about a little bit on the podcast. But he came on to talk about spiritual bypass.

Yes. And you'll thank me, Trevor, because I chose the Uncle Si reference, as opposed to multitudes of Sunday school kids songs I could have brought that all reinforce that theme of, like, well, if you have Jesus in your life, you're happy all the time. That's just the life. And there is truth that Christ brings us joy and peace and the hope of heaven and all of that. But I think spiritual bypass really looks at an unrealistic way of living that just says I should always be happy, and if I'm not, I need to kind of press that down, as you'll hear Dr. Craig talk about so well today, and ignore very real things that are part of recovery. And so for all of us, that can slip into some of that mode of I just need to be happy, happy, happy, and if I'm not, I should act like I am. Today's episode is really about permission to feel the feelings and to go through the journey even when it gets a little uncomfortable or painful. So I think it was a great conversation. And I think everyone, whether you're married, single, struggling, a spouse, this is just one of those that is kind of common to the human element. So I hope everyone really enjoys the conversation today.

It is a powerful one, for sure. So who is Craig Cashewell? Craig is a professor in the counselor Education program at William and Mary. He also coordinates the doctoral program there. He's been a professional counselor for 31 years and you can tell, and has also been an educator for 28 of those years. Listen to this. He has over 140 publications, including three books. He's even received research awards from the American Counseling association and the Mississippi Counseling Association. So he's even more impressive than maybe we realized. He also serves, and this is where we've had experience with him. He serves on faculty, the teaching faculty for the International Institute of Trauma and Addiction Professionals, our itap. And he was one of the trainers in our PSAP training for module two, which we got to experience. And he was my favorite. Do not get me wrong, Marnie, you're amazing if you're listening to this. Also if you're listening to this, you're even more amazing. But Craig, just an amazing man. But before we get to that, let's do our normal thing. Nick, first we want you to subscribe to the podcast Listener. Make sure that you do. Don't wait any longer. Find us on all the major platforms. Leave us a review. We're at 413. Not that I'm keeping track, but we're at 413. We need more and so that means a lot to us. Please do that. Also, follow us on social media.

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This is a new feature, Twitter, Instagram, theuredesirepdmi. Also, you can search these full episodes up on YouTube. Just search pure Desire Ministries. And then Nick, we wanted to talk about again and we did this recently, but we want to talk about this 15 minute free consultation that we offer for our Pure Desire counseling program.

Free.

Yeah.

So a little bit more about that. We know that for a lot of people and some of those are the target audience for today's episode. Particularly when we get caught in spiritual bypass, the idea of counseling can feel like defeat, weakness, depending on our background, maybe something Christians shouldn't even need. And it can be, quite frankly, expensive. And so we want to help people really make those decisions well and understand if Pure Desire counseling is right for them. And that's why they can get 15 minutes, not free counseling, but 15 minutes of free conversation of trying to determine is counseling at Pure Desire the best fit for you? And so whether you're the spouse, the struggler, a family member, really encourage you to schedule that and take those next steps because it's just an easy way that you can reach out and determine what might be right for you.

Absolutely. So if you are interested in this, you can go to PureDesire.org consultation to then schedule your 15 minute free consultation to talk about Pure Desire counseling. All right, here is our time with Dr. Craig Cashewell talking about spiritual bypass. Dr. Craig Cashewell, we're so glad to have you on the show. Thanks for joining us today.

Yeah, thank you for having me. It's my pleasure.

Nick and I had the privilege, and I use that word very intentionally, privilege of sitting under your teaching in Module 2 of the Pastoral Sex Addiction Professional Training through ITAP. If you're familiar with Pure Desire Listener, then you know that ITAP is who we have certification through with our clinicians, and a lot of our material is based on the training through that. And Craig, in one of your sessions, you cover a topic in your teaching and one that you're actually really, really passionate about, and I think that's why it came through so strongly is something Spiritual bypass. Over the last couple years, we have become more and more aware of spiritual bypass and how common it is in the church. But today we want to define it, talk through it, and really establish how it can be so detrimental to emotional, mental and sexual health. So for many of our listeners, this may be a new term, spiritual bypass. So let's just start by defining it. What is spiritual bypass?

Yeah, so it's a term that's been around for about 30 years in the mental health literature. And essentially it's the idea that sometimes we avoid our psychological work by pivoting and solely focusing on the spiritual aspects. We think of it as a defensive coping strategy. It's a way to hold at arm's length things that feel uncomfortable, emotions or experiences that feel uncomfortable. It has this avoidance function to it. It's a way basically to not deal with unfinished psychological business.

Yeah, so I can already hear for some listeners are like, well, wait a minute, you know, faith is what we need. We should lean into the spiritual. And sometimes psychological can be, you know, maybe leading us astray. And trust me, listener, we're going to get into all that. So hold on to your questions and reservations because that's why we're having the conversation. But, you know, I think what we've seen at Pure Desire and probably every listener can relate to the extreme forms of this where someone is just like, well, you know, I'm just trusting God to provide for me. And they're like, they're not looking for work. They're not actually doing anything to try to get a job. They just think, like, money's going to drop on their doorstep while they sit at home on the couch. And any one of us that's heard that is like, I think you're kind of using your faith as a way to bypass doing the things you can do, the things you're capable of. And so I think it might be helpful if we realize, oh yeah, we've all encountered an extreme version of that that we feel like that's not healthy. We're just trying to look at what are the ways. Maybe in our recovery journeys have we bought into some similar, more subtle forms of that same approach?

Totally.

Sure. No, I think that's a great example and I appreciate what you said, Nick, because we really are talking about an integration of the spiritual and the psychological. Right. So it's when we only look at one side of that equation. So there are people who look at the psychological work of recovery but don't have a spiritual space that they hold. They don't have a set of a foundational set of beliefs, religiously or spiritually, that sort of anchor them. And so that's the other side of the equation. Right. So yeah, I see. I've worked with people who said, well, I don't really want to call it an addiction because that sounds. And I know that God is going to deliver me from this. But they didn't do the work of recovery. Right. They weren't doing the active sorts of tasks of recovery. And again, it's that expectation that God will do this without any efforting on our part, without any, without a constructed set of work together.

Totally.

That's the way that I think about it.

It's funny and maybe this, the language has stuck more with me just because of my experience in athletics, but I've heard people talk about the term Jesus juke that you kind of like, it's a way to like sidestep or make a move to get around really addressing something. And so if, you know, maybe you've never heard spiritual bypass. Another terminology you might have heard is Jesus juke, where you over spiritualize in order to really not have to face, you know, what you're standing right in.

Front of or like, instead of asking someone more follow up questions, finding out how we can help, we just give the I'll pray for you and it shuts down the conversation. We can move on.

God will provide for you. Yeah, I believe it. Yeah.

And I hope again that every listener can agree there are certain platitudes we can hear used in Christianity that we realize that that's not very helpful. It's just a way to minimize what's going on. And I think the word of the day is integration that you just said, Craig, that's what we're looking to do is see how can I integrate deeply held views of faith and spirituality and, you know, belief in the Bible with an understanding of how do I do that work of recovery? Because it's partnering with, I believe, what God wants to do in my life that leads to those successful outcomes. So, Craig, when you've talked about spiritual bypass, you've often referred to it in two ways, that it can be either chronic or acute. And so what is the difference between those two? What is meant by chronic spiritual bypass versus acute spiritual bypass?

Yeah, so the research has really kind of taken off on this in the last five to seven years. We now have a good way to measure this construct of spiritual bypass. And so we've been doing a lot more quantitative research around it. And one of the really interesting findings is that we really don't see psychological problems for people who maybe use this in these very acute ways. And what I mean by that is when there is something that happens that in that moment is so overwhelming that we really cannot cope with it in that moment. And we turn to, I just have to turn this over to God, or I know that God's got this, or I will surrender this to God in that moment. That doesn't really seem to be problematic. And in fact, we actually, that may be a very helpful. When you think the alternative would be sexually acting out or going on a cocaine binge or what some of the other alternatives might be. But what we're finding is that when people engage in this is sort of a chronic, long term coping strategy to avoid difficult emotions and difficult experiences, that's when it starts to really take a toll. So we know that there's a psychological process when we suppress things that we don't want to feel, which spiritual bypass can do for us. It can help us sort of pretend like we're fine. Then that actually has kind of a rebound effect. So it shows up in the body. People start developing physical illnesses. They develop sometimes more intense. Like if they're struggling with anxiety, for example, now they're struggling with panic attacks. And the reason is because they've been struggling, trying so hard not to feel. And I often think about emotions as sort of a super ball. If we push them down, they're going to bounce back stronger. And so by sort of pushing that away, by trying to pretend like everything's fine when we're struggling with something in whatever way that Might be trying to pretend that we're not sad or pretend that we're not anxious, pretend that we don't feel ashamed because we're a child of God. When we push that stuff away, that's actually there, it actually kind of comes back in this rebound kind of way that just psychologically doesn't work. So that's how I think about it, really. We think about it more problematic when this is people's go to. Every time they feel uncomfortable, they will come up with one of those platitudes. It shows up a lot in grief work, for example, where we hear people tell other people not to be sad because the deceased is in a better place. Right. Logically, we would probably all agree that that's true. And yet the point of the statement is don't feel sad, which is not a healthy message. Because we're sad, not because we don't think that our loved one is in a better place. We're sad because they're not here and we're grieving our loss. Right. Would be an example of that.

Yeah. So when I hear you describe that, Craig, it sounds like that spiritual bypass often becomes a way that a believer can deal with cognitive dissonance between what I believe is true about God and what I'm feeling aren't lining up, and what I'm feeling would seem to invalidate my beliefs. And so rather than be willing to wrestle with them and think about, well, why do I feel this way and where is it coming from? What's driving it, we just try to ignore it because we go to the platitudes. We go to what we believe. Like, well, I believe God is enough for every situation, even though right now I feel terrified and alone and don't feel like he's enough. But I don't want to voice that, because then it maybe sounds like I have weak faith or that I'm a mess, and maybe I really don't believe these things. So we choose to just try to go with belief as a way to solve the cognitive dissonance. Do you think that's. Is that an accurate way to describe it?

Yeah, absolutely. So I think about the spiritual bypass as sort of a part that slides into place when another part of us starts to feel too much or to have an experience that cognitive dissonance that you describe. And so it really is. It's a protective function. Right. It comes in to protect us from that discomfort, that dissonance that we feel. But unfortunately, in the end, it doesn't help us resolve it. It just is a mask. It covers it up and it doesn't go away in that. Yeah, it's a great way to. I like that, Nick. That's a good way to describe it.

And it's so ironic to me that, you know, especially if. If you're in recovery, if you're in healing and you understand the idea of a coping mechanism, something you're using to numb out from the pain and difficulty of life, this is going to be an interesting and ironic part, you know, of your journey that you realize that you can even use spiritual language and theological truths or doctrines to actually do the same thing that your addiction was doing that you're using to cope and numb out to those, to what you're experiencing. I think that's such an ironic and interesting thing that our brains look for all these different ways to not have to feel pain or discomfort. And we'll even use our relationship with the Lord and the biblical truths that we've been taught and know so well to do that. It's fascinating. So let's kind of get into that a little bit more. What would you say, Craig, are some common ways that we use spiritual bypass? And obviously, you know, our audience are people who are struggling with. Are in recovery with sexual addiction or, or are on the healing journey from betrayal trauma. How might we use spiritual bypass in some common ways in those contexts?

Yeah, so we've actually already named several. Right. So first of all, I really appreciate what you just said, Trevor, and I want to really highlight that because you really kind of highlighted the addiction serves a protective function as well. Right. And so when we're trying to change those behaviors, it's not that illogical that something we would try to find something else to protect us from those undesirable emotional experiences. Right. So one's very common is anxiety. Right. So the unwanted sexual behavior provides a mask or a cover up for that anxiety. And so again, I think it's important that we think about this as a protective function. And it actually works in a way. But it. But when it's long term, then it becomes the problem.

Right.

That's important to sort of highlight it unfortunately is very effective in the short term. So we think we've already sort of named this way to push down unwanted emotions. Some people say negative emotions actually don't like that language. I think all emotions are a gift from God and emotions are meant to flow like a river, is my belief. And when they do, we're at our best not flowing like a tsunami and overwhelming us, but to find the space where it flows like a river where we can feel what we feel and then. And then sort of move beyond it. I always think about small children and how they feel what they feel so intensely. And then they're done. Right. Because they've discharged that emotion. And we become adults and we start to think in these more complex ways and we get caught in traps sometimes. Sometimes just throw a tantrum on the cookie owl and you can't have what you want and then you're fine. Right. Like there's. There really is that feel what you feel.

Yeah.

So that emotional piece is really important. And unfortunately, sometimes in religious communities. Sometimes religious communities don't do a good job with that. They tell us it's not okay to be angry, it's not okay to be sad, it's not okay to be afraid. Whereas I think we have scriptural references that show Jesus in all of those spaces being angry, being sad, being afraid in his humanity. Right. And so I think that's one of the big ways. We also see people who will find a charismatic leader and blindly follow them. And that can be a religious leader. It can be a sponsor. We see that sometimes where sponsors are sort of. Sort of put up on a pedestal in a godlike sort of way and followed. Everything that they say is treated as absolute truth. And the person's not thinking on their own. That's the problem, Right. That we're not aware. That's how cults get formed. That's how really a lot of damage can be done in a sponsor sponsee relationship in some instances where that person's just given too much authority, too much responsibility, and no accountability. Accountability. So we see that. We do see that. We can just pray this away or we'll pray more. We'll pray more earnestly and be delivered from this. I want to be clear. I'm a person of faith. I think that God does miracles every day and sometimes pray more is a way to abdicate personal responsibility. And therein lies the problem. Right? So we need to. We might need to be more earnest in our prayer life and create some accountability, have an accountability partner, have some monitoring software on our computers. So there are steps to take that still makes sense beside the prayer alongside the prayer. Right. So that it is a both and rather than an either or. So I think those are the main ones. We do see people sometimes, and I think this can be a coping strategy for people with addictions who sort of see themselves as being spiritually superior. Or there's a spiritual narcissism that we see Sometimes in spiritual bypass that I'm somehow favored by God in some sort of way that makes the rules not apply to me. We see that where there's clergy sexual misconduct. Right. We see that a lot. And that's. That's spiritual bypass. You know, God told me that you are the chosen one for someone where there's, there's grooming behavior for an inappropriate sexual relationship. So we see it in that regard. Yeah, those are the ones that come to me right away. Those are the ones that certainly I see more often in from a counseling side of things.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. When I hear you ask that question, Trevor, I think of. And we kind of discuss this as well. But where there's premature forgiveness that takes place kind of the forgive and forget. God forgave me, I forgave them, and that's truth. And I think that's what makes this spiritual bypass topic so challenging is that even what people are saying there is an element of truth. It is true that Christ has forgiven me and my debt to him was way greater than what anyone would ever owe me. And so there is a. A need in my faith to forgive others. But that shouldn't be absent of going through a grieving process of acknowledging what's been lost and really determining what does Moving forward, is reconciliation possible? And sometimes in spiritual bypass, I think we just do this. Well, forgive and forget and we move forward and we're all happy and things are good when maybe there's not really been any deeper work to understand what we're even forgiving. And so that's one I've seen happen in the. And then honestly, maybe this is more with the men I've worked with who chose not to do group is when they I would call proclaim premature victory. Like, oh, God delivered me from that. You know, it's been a good month and I'm sure, you know, I went to that experience or that event and I'm man, this month I've hardly even had a lustful thought. And so I'm delivered. And again, not really recognizing old patterns that are still there, circumstances that are going to be coming up down the road that can so easily retrigger. And if we just think we've got like this supernatural shield, which on a few occasions we do hear stories of someone that they feel God delivered them and decades later it's the same point of delivery. But for every one of those I've heard, I've heard literally hundreds of the other story of, well, I thought I'd been delivered. I went forward at this service. But boy, two months later I was back. Or two years, or in some cases, I think of stories where it was seven, eight years down the road that they had to just kind of blindly believed. I'm never going to struggle with that again. I don't even have to think about it. And their guard was so down that when they got into a circumstance in life where they needed a go to, they needed something to cope, they went back to those old patterns. And I think some of that is that spiritual bypass of I'm not really going to stay self aware of my limitations and weaknesses. I'm just going to kind of proclaim this supernatural victory that gives me this guarantee I'll never go back. And, and I think for most people that's not the work God wants to do in us. God wants to bring transformation. And transformation, I think is something we usually partner actively in. The transformation versus the magical snapping of fingers. And it's all better.

Well, and as you're describing that, what comes to mind is I would refer to that as situational sobriety more than actual health, where health is a change of the way we do life. And so that's, I mean that stands out as very significant that, that for me, I'm six years into recovery, almost seven. And I'm at the point now where I would say that I do have some health under my belt, but there may be seasons that come up in life that unless I've dealt with some parts of my story and parts of my addiction, things may flare back up. And that's just proof that there's more healing and more recovery that needs to take place. And I think for me, one of the most detrimental examples of spiritual bypass is like, I'm a new creation. I'm no longer the old creation. I shouldn't look at my past. I shouldn't go back and explore how messed up my family was or the dumb decisions I made when I was younger or whatever. And I think that that's one of the most common ones that I hear. And not just in recovery from sexual addiction, but man with anything trauma related woundedness, it's like, well, I just don't want to focus on that anymore. And I think that we use scripture to gloss over our past and not address it. And we know that in sexual addiction that is what motivates the behavior is woundedness that we have and trauma that we carry from our experiences.

You know, it's interesting, like from the psychological, the psychological corollary of what you guys are talking about is the difference between sobriety and recovery. Right. So sobriety is just not engaging in the old unwanted behaviors. That's. That's. That's a pretty simple definition. I think that gets confused with recovery. And recovery is the deeper work that you're talking about, Trevor, of healing what has been damaged that is underneath the unwanted sexual behavior, whatever that might be. It's often trauma. We see that very regularly that there's some early developmental trau that causes emotional dysregulation. And one way to manage that is through unwanted sexual behavior. It's why people continue to engage in the behavior even though they don't want to, because the dysregulated emotion is so strong that they need to put that fire out in some way. And again, unfortunately, sexual behavior works in the short term. It does that thing. It does reregulate emotions. But ultimately, then of course, the solution becomes the problem. There are a couple of things. If I could comment on a couple of things you said, Nick, if that's okay. I just want to put an exclamation point behind the idea of premature forgiveness. We know psychologically forgiveness is a process, and I'm like you. I think for every one case I've heard of where somebody really has been sort of delivered by God of their unforgiveness in a moment. I've heard hundreds of cases of people who. I think the norm is that it really is. It is a process of first deciding whether to forgive, which we are called to do as Christian, and then work the working through process, which means touching the anger, touching the fact that we have hurt other people in a process that people really need to go through, usually with support, to be able to really let go of that grievance narrative. And so I think we, particularly with partners, I think we do a real disservice when we encourage forgiveness as an event without the recognition that there's a psychological working through process there. There's one other sort of attribute of spirit bypass that I want to name because I think it's important. And sometimes this can get really socially reinforced, which is compulsive goodness. And the word compulsive is an important word there, right? Because we're called to be, you know, compassionate, loving people in Christ. So but there are people, and we've probably all known people like this, or maybe we've been in this space before where, you know, we sign up for every committee in our religious community. We're doing everything. We're always. And sometimes even to our own detriment or to the detriment of our families. In 12 step communities, we talk about people who work the steps 1, 2, 3, 12, because 4 through 11 are really hard steps. But 12 is about serving other people. Right. So I can go to this really comfortable place, I can recognize my powerlessness, and then I can serve other people and not do some of the hard, active work of steps 4 through 11. So we see that compulsive goodness show up for people in if I can feel good about myself, if I'm always taking care of other people. Again, we are called to take care of one another. So please know that word compulsive is an important word there, but it's a way to avoid our own sense of I'm not enough, I'm not. Okay, I'm not, whatever that might be. We can mask that by taking care of other people. Yeah, so it's avoidance function that's important.

Yeah, it's easier for me to focus on you than to have to focus on me. So, you know, we were already discussing this a little bit earlier, Dr. Craig, but that idea that, that this can be so subtle because there are elements of truth to the scriptural things that we might say. So for that Christ follower believer who's listening, how can you help them maybe see the line between when is it spiritual bypass and when is it accurate theology and how do they know the difference between those two?

Yeah. So it's complicated and it's nuanced. And sometimes when you even just bring up the idea of people, you have to do it in a very gentle way. Right. Because it's sort of. If it is, I think about it, my analogy in my mind is that it's like a crutch. And we don't just walk up and kick out a crutch out from under the arm of someone who needs it to stand up. Right. So we do this in very compassionate ways, I think. You know, interestingly to me, you know, 125 years ago or so, Sigmund Freud wrote that religion is a disavowal of reality. And one of the most scathing comments in the mental health field about religion. And I don't. I do not believe that is true, but I think it becomes a nice benchmark for thinking, thinking about a healthy religion versus spiritual bypass. If we are in spiritual bypass, we are to a certain extent disavowing reality. We're trying to pretend like we're fine. We're trying to pretend like we're healed when there is a lot of work yet to be done. Right. So there Is reality that we're denying when we're in spiritual bypass. So I think that the truer path, the healthy religion, the healthy spirituality puts us in, gives us the courage to face all that is right. One of my favorite writers is James Finley, who has written that God's love. God protects us from nothing, but God's love sustains us through everything. So it is that love of God that gives us the courage, the fearlessness to go into these really painful, difficult places knowing that we are not alone. As Christ followers, as children of God, we are not alone. So for me, that kind of becomes the benchmark. Does it have that avoidant function? Are we sort of pushing away something that is in an effort to try to feel okay in the moment? So to me. And that's a slippery slope, Right. It's very nuanced and we can convince ourselves because it's an unconscious process. I'd love to say I've never engaged in spiritual bypass. Not true. Part of my interest in this is like, yeah, if I look in the mirror, I see times and places where I've done this right. I think probably most of us have. And in moments, I would have argued to the death that this was good theology, this was true, this was right, because I was protecting whatever it was I didn't want to experience or feel right. So, you know, we don't want to get into arguments with people about this. I think that's really important. That just doesn't work. If somebody is really holding really tightly to something, we might be able to say, gosh, it seems like, you know, losing a parent might be really painful and just let that sit there, right? Like, and they go, nope, nope, because they were suffering and now they're with God. And it's like, that's what they need in that moment. So we let them have that. But we also have invited that possibility that there's some sadness there, that there's grief, that there's loss, that there's pain. And so I think that's sort of how I think about that. We have to be ultimately, we have to show people a lot of grace when they're in spiritual bypass. And when we recognize that in themselves and when we recognize it in ourselves. Right. We give ourselves some grace, too.

Totally. Well, that's a good word for how, really in this, like, so many of the topics we discuss, we're going to need other people. If we just try to do it on our own and navigate through our own thought process and believe we have no blind spots, we're going to be tripped up by it. But that's where, whether in group or healthy family relationships or friendships, we're able to go to people. And I. I feel like this is something. Trevor, I hear you do a lot of just saying, is this something that I'm misreading or am I kind of stuck in my way of seeing it? Or is this true? Is it legitimate? And letting other people speak into that, I think for all of us is so, so valuable because otherwise we're in danger, just like you said, Dr. Craig, if we look in the mirror and go, oh, I'm good, but maybe I'm not. And you know, one other thing too, that comes to mind for me in thinking where we run into problems, I think we confuse salvation language in scripture and sanctification language. And what I mean by that is a lot of the truths that people use for spiritual bypass are really about salvation. They are eternal realities. I've been saved in Christ. I've been promised eternity. I've been given a renewed spirit, a new self. And those things are true because of salvation, and they're true at a spirit spiritual level. But then we can ignore a lot of sanctification language, which is the journey of still becoming more like Christ, which we could go through the New Testament, talk about how all the authors point out there is still the transformative work of becoming more like Christ, even while those things have been done for us. So I think that's where I would encourage, you know, the Christian to look at this and say, am I practicing spiritual bypass because I've applied salvation language? If I'm a new creation and tried to have it overwrite the process of sanctification in my life, that's good.

Something that came to mind as you guys were talking was maybe a distinction between accurate theology and spiritual bypass is you were talking about it, Craig, that avoidance is where a spiritual bypass becomes more prevalent. That's where spiritual bypass hangs out. But I think the opposite of that, where if I have accurate theology, I would understand how God feels about me, the type of relationship he has with me and that he wants to be. You know, one of the conversations I have a lot, specifically around emotions, and I struggle with emotions probably more than most people. I tend to be in my head more than in my heart. But one of the things I hear a lot is, and one of the things I heard growing up a lot was that emotions, they're not really that important. Like, they can be deceiving. They'll pull you away from reality and from what's True. And you need to think to be grounded. And, you know, the older I've gotten, the more into recovery I've realized that my body and my emotions, those things matter too, just as much as what I think or what I know as far as information. And God wants, like, if God didn't want me to feel emotions and be capable of them, he wouldn't have given them to me. And if God wants to be in a relationship with me holistically, which I believe is taught through Scripture, then that means my emotions too, and that means the situations and the pain and the trauma and the wounds that I've experienced. And so true theology is not avoiding, but inviting in is the language that I just going through my head right now inviting God into the difficulty I have, into the trauma I've experienced, into the stress, the anxiety, the tensions that I feel through life. That to me, is someone who has an active relationship and an accurate theology when it comes to their relationship, relationship with the Lord, I don't know.

I agree with that. I think one of the ways I think about this sometimes I really listen when I'm sitting with clients, I really listen for their image of God and their relationship with God, right? Like, what is their. What is their image or vision of how God thinks about them and feels toward them? And I think when we get caught in this is a personal belief. You may or may not agree, but my belief is at the core. God loves us through and through and through and has for all eternity. When we were, you know, the most beautiful moment, the most beautiful thing we've ever done, God loved us. And in the worst behavioral thing we've ever done, God loved us. No less, no more. God loved us. And so when we sit in that space, we are children of God, and that's not conditional, but I think sometimes we get caught in a theology of we're not worthy or God doesn't hear our prayers because we're so wicked or evil people. These are things common have told me over time, right? And so when we get caught in that space, then it's not okay for me to be anxious. It's not okay for me to have a sexual thought. It's not okay. And we start trying to pretend to stuff those things down rather than acknowledging them and knowing that in that moment we are no less loved by God. And so I think that it is that integration of body and mind and theology and soul and spirit. It is that coming together of all of that, where we look at all of that and we can look at the Fact that we are children of God and we are recovering addicts and we are jerks sometimes and we lose our temper sometimes, and we, you know, we are imperfect, we are human. And so I think it is. It is the capacity. I think a lot about the fact that the words whole, healing, and holy all come from the same root word. Yeah, right. That really matters to me. Someone could say, well, that's just semantics. I don't think it is. I think it's when we can look at all of those parts of ourselves and not condone the bad things that we've done. I'm not saying that or not dismiss them, but embrace them and know that they are part of our story, they're part of our journey, and. And that God loves us through and through. That, to me, that is. That is so critical in this process because that gives us the courage to walk into those places that feel pretty uncomfortable.

Yeah, it goes. Goes back to the word of the day. Integration.

Yeah, that's right.

Integrating that I am emotion and mind, integrating that I am loved and have work to do and things to face and being whole and holy is about integrating those things.

Absolutely. Craig, one of the things, and I've heard you talk about this a little bit before, and I think it somehow in my mind, it's connected to that idea of doing, like, compulsive good or compulsively serving is this idea of toxic positivity, which is such a funny thing to say. It seems like an oxymoron. But what is toxic positivity and what issues do you see this causing? Kind of in this conversation we're already having, and even in the church, it's.

You know, toxic positivity has become kind of a buzz phrase. But it's intriguing to me how, you know, I grew up in the church. I've lived all my life in different religious communities. And the frequency with which I see community, this is not true for everybody. Church, for sure, but the frequency with which I walk into communities. And when you watch people, you watch the exchange. The exchange is predictable. How are you? And there seems to be, in my experience, maybe this is a Southern us thing. I don't know. But there seem to be three acceptable answers to the question, how are you in church? You either fine, you're blessed, or you're highly favored. And those are the three acceptable responses. Anything else gets a look of like, don't you know the right answers to those questions? Or find blessed or highly favored. So there's this idea that we, you know, we present ourselves we put a mask on when we walk into the very place that I would like to think we could be the most honest and the most real. Because the reality is when everybody says they're fine, nobody's safe, nobody feels really safe to say I'm not okay. It's really hard to say I'm not okay when everybody around you is saying they're fine. Right? And for starters, we compare our internal experience to other people's external appearance, right? They look fine, most of us look fine when we're not on the inside. And so I think that when we. There's something beautiful that happens. It happens in 12 step groups, it happens in therapy groups, and it happens in churches when they are at their healthiest, I think, which is that it's not only okay to not be okay, but it's just seen as this beautiful thing to be real and authentic and raw with one another. To be imperfect, to be incomplete, to be not yet whole. Right. We're all works in progress. And what I find is just the beautiful things that happen when those spaces get created where people can not engage in toxic positivity. They can be real with each other. Because the reality is, you know, we're three guys having this conversation. We're all struggling with something right. Right now, you know, we're not going to talk about it in this venue, but it's, it's there for all of us because it's the human condition. I believe that it may be, it may be really acute, really tough for us right now, or it may be, yeah, we're doing kind of mostly okay now, but we're all struggling with something all the time, that is life. And so the more we can acknowledge that, the better off, better off that we are so toxic. Positivity is a can be if it's, if it's got that, that sort of religious language around, that can be a form of spiritual bypass where we're pretending that we're not struggling with anything.

I've recently when people have asked me that question, like, how are you doing? Literally, I'll say this, how much time do you have?

Yeah. Do you really want to know?

Yeah.

Because like, if you really wanted to know, you wouldn't ask me this question right now because we're just passing by in the hallway, you know. But I think it could get to the other side too really easily where you just be kind of, you kind of adopt this victim mindset. And so I think we have to find that balance between the two. But you know, sometimes for someone who lives in this idea or this realm of toxic positivity. The idea of being honest about how you're actually doing can feel like a victim mindset, can feel so extreme to the other side. But that's not true. I mean, I think we have to embrace the discomfort a little bit. And a lot of people who go through counseling, who go through pure desire groups, people who go through 12 step groups, recovery groups, they'll understand that you have to lean into that discomfort and you realize that on the other side comes community and intimacy and being known and health is on that side. And so that's just something we're going to have to, wherever we're at in recovery, continue to push into that vulnerability and that discomfort a little bit.

Yeah, I think for a lot of people, they've maybe defined a version of toxic positivity as what it means to be a Christian because it's like, well, I've got faith in the resurrection and eternity and it says, Jesus gave me joy and peace that passes understanding. And so in every situation we feel like, well, to be a faith filled person, I've got to put this positive spin on it that it's not really bad because look at all these truths that I believe. And I think what we're discussing here is we need to create environments, we need to create space where it's perfectly okay to be grieving and still have faith of the joy to come, that the two don't like cancel each other out. Or it's okay to be stuck in some disappointment over my own decisions or behaviors or things I've done this week and believe in a God that forgives and is leading me towards his eternal home. Like, I think we just don't allow enough space for that. And so people feel like, well, I want to, I want to be seen as a person of faith. So I'll just choose the silver lining here when we've maybe created a dichotomy that doesn't even exist, that we can have both.

Right.

I love that, Nick. And the key word there is and right. We can be grieving and have faith that God will help us navigate this loss that we've experienced in our life. It is that. And I think that is so critical because when we get into the or. Either. Either I am. Either I am joyous and happy all the time or I'm somehow not okay in God's eyes. That's the trap, I think black and white thinking.

Yeah. I have a theology professor who emphasizes that suffering and the difficulty that we go through is Actually something that should be lifting our eyes to eternity and say, this is what should help me anticipate the kingdom and anticipate no longer being in the presence of sin and brokenness. I think that's encouraging. He's not saying escape it. It's just keeping that eternity. I've got a group of guys where we're going through Screwtape letters. I've never read the C.S. lewis book before until right now. And there's a letter in there. If you haven't read it, please do. It is fascinating and very, very. It's like C.S. lewis is living today, but he wrote this like 50, 60 years ago. But one of the things that became so clear in that is that we need to be living in the present with an eye to eternity. And what Lewis and his understanding of demons and their lies and everything is to get us out of the present. And also not thinking about eternity, but thinking about the negatives coming in the future. I don't know why that felt connected, but there go you go some stuff from Screwtape letters.

I agree. I completely agree. So that I think that I think the path there is when, as best we can. And that's an important phrase, right? Because we're not going to do it perfect. But as best we can to lean into that suffering. It doesn't mean we're not going to engage in spiritual bypass at some point because it's too much. It doesn't mean we're not going to eat a bag of Oreos, because sometimes it's just. That's the most delicious way to eat my emotions that I know, right? So we all do those things from time to time. We perfect in this process, but as best we can to lean into that suffering, to lean into that struggle with the faith that God will work with us when we are doing that. Leaning in. It's that collaborative process that seems so critical to me. That's what the Serenity prayer really says, right? That we do our part and we surrender to God what is not ours to manage and control and manipulate and then struggle with that discernment process, process to figure out which is which.

Why in these examples, is it always a bag of Oreos? Because I think really chewy, soft baked Chips Ahoy would be way more tempting. But anyway, that's a different podcast. Dr. Craig, let's start to turn the page a little bit and look more towards, like, next steps. How do we grow? So, as you've said, this is something that can be present in all of us where we're tempted to use spiritual bypass. So how can we avoid falling into the habit of using spiritual bypass and avoid doing the hard work of recovery? How do we stop doing this or at least move in the right direction?

Yeah, so I think there's some really good research that a lot of it has been done with cancer survivors who are people of faith. And the people who fare the best, not only medically but psychologically, are people who find this path where they have this collaborative effort with God. Right. And it really. It really comes down to the serenity prayer, what I just said. And so I think that when we're recognizing that we are partners with God in this process, there are. There are aspects of our journeys that, you know, there's a big difference between surrender and abdicating personal responsibility. Those are not the same thing. They can look a lot alike from a spiritual bypass standpoint. But we know there are steps that people need to take. And I use steps and terms of 12 steps, but also just there are actions that people need to take to be healthy. They need to do things differently. Not eating a bag of Oreos every night, cope with your emotions or chips is a good example. And so I think about it a lot of, like, what are. Because this happens at a community level too. Right. And it's not just religious communities, although they can. Can do this, but it can happen in work environments. It could happen in anywhere where there's that kind of. It's not okay to not be okay. So we all put the masks on and pretend like we're fine. And so can we create safe spaces where people can be honest about those things? Not everybody in the world is safe. We shouldn't tell everybody everything. And. But that. But there are. Can we. Do I have a safe space so I know I have a safe space in God? Do I have a safe space in a brother or sister in Christ that I can talk to who I know is not going to judge me, not going to shame me, but can hold the space for that struggle and not offer me these platitudes that are essentially spiritual bypass language. I think that's really critical. I think we can work at this at a community level. And I think I always say the way to work with this at an individual level is stay curious. Stay curious about. Okay? So I'm saying this thing. Do I feel it as truth? Does it feel like I'm pushing something away? Because until we can touch that thing that we're pushing away doesn't mean we have to. To embrace it right away. But until we can become aware. Okay, so I do this thing because I don't want to feel this. This anxiety or I don't want to feel the shame that's bubbling up in me there. The naming of it is such a critical first step in the. In the mental health world. We say you can't heal what you can't feel, which is a little bit of a cliche, but it's also true. And so if we're pushing that stuff away all the time, whether it's spiritual bypass or of Oreos or, you know, alcohol or, you know, there's so many ways to run away. It can be compulsive exercise. It can be lots of different ways. Until we can recognize what we're avoiding, we can't step into it to heal it. We can't be whole. And that's. That's, I think, the really critical work. And it's tricky and it's nuanced and it's. You know, the phrase cunning, baffling, powerful comes to mind here. So we're going to do it imperfect, and I think that's important as well. Again, that we show each other grace and we show ourselves grace in that if you want someone to double down on their spiritual bypass, confront them really harshly about it, they will absolutely guarantee they will grab hold of it and they'll walk away from you because you've become an unsafe person for them. So there's like, there's a kindness, there's a love of Christ that we extend to one another. Even as we might be pointing out, some of these things are just normalizing, not being okay, that can be a way to just normalize. It's okay to not be fine all the time. You can still be blessed and be struggling with anxiety or unwanted sexual behavior or all of those things. It's. Again, it's the end.

Yeah.

Yeah. What a powerful question we could be asking ourselves every morning just to say, what am I trying to avoid today and why? And maybe we don't have the courage. Courage to ask that with someone else or bring it up to a spouse, but just internally or in our, you know, in a journal, saying, what am I avoiding today and why? And trying to explore those things because I think even that practice would keep us grounded in what we've been talking about, reality, and integrating my faith into the real emotional discomfort, painful things that I'm feeling or experiencing. And then I think, inviting God and others into the process of facing those things with. With grace and integrity.

I think you brought it up earlier. I'm the type of person that tends to ask a lot of questions just to make sure I'm not missing something. And if I'm being honest, there's some of my brokenness and wounds that are mixed up in that. I don't want to look like an idiot. So if I get other people's perspective, then I look less like an idiot if I mess up. Not that I'm sharing what really happens in my life or anything, but I think that that's one of, like, some of the fruit I get from that is this point where if other people can give me perspective and. And help poke some of the holes where I might be avoiding or bypassing what I'm feeling or experiencing. And they asked me a question that basically kind of like grabs me by the back of my jersey and pulls me, and it's like, no, just sit in this moment for a second and evaluate. How do you feel? What is going on? What are some of the, you know, some of the things that have happened this week that led you to this point? Gosh, you know, you hear that adage that, like, maybe it's not an adage, but I just, like, you have, like, two heads are better than one. If you have four sets of eyes on something rather than just your own, that's a good thing. If you have people who are curious with you, you can ask those questions. That, for me, in a lot of ways, I feel like has kickstarted that for myself. More self awareness, more ability to address the lies I believe, the brokenness I'm carrying around. I think that, to your point, Craig, of curiosity, I think that if we allow ourselves to be curious and invite other people in, that's where we're gonna see. See our tendencies to use spiritual bypass, where those just tend to drop off. Because it's like, well, I have these people around me who almost are holding me accountable to not spiritually bypass just as much as they are helping me pursue my own recovery and healing, sexual health, all that.

Yeah, I agree completely. So one of the ways that I think about this is that especially if we're in chronic spiritual bypass, where we're using this a lot, I think about it as, like, it becomes an autopilot on an airplane, right? We have to get that autopilot flipped off somehow. We have to get that clipped off and be a little bit more conscious, because it now is an unconscious, automatic process that's happening. And so what both of you have just said is so beautiful. We have to slow down because it's an automatic Things we have to slow down that automatic thing to the point where we can even notice that we're doing it. And sometimes we need help. We need other people. We need the people in our lives who can be good. Mirrors. Right. They can sort of hold that mirror up and let us see ourselves in a different way. We can't do it by ourselves, but with God's help and with the help of others, we can. We all can do that and we can step into that messy work of being human.

Yeah, no joke. Okay, so you kind of touched on this a little bit as we were going through that last question, but is it possible to help others recognize when they're using spiritual bypass? And I think the answer is yes already. I can tell the answer is yes. But don't just tell them, hey, you're spiritually bypassing right now. You're being stupid. Stop using. Yeah, so, but what does it look like to help people? How does, how do. Is it a modeling thing? Do we have conversations? What does it look like?

I think, you know, Nick was talking about this at the outset, about how this is tricky because it can be good theology and spiritual bypass. Right. So. And often the defense is. But that's, that's scriptural. Here I can show you the chapter and verse. And so I think you just used a great word, Trevor, about modeling. So I think the more we can be vulnerable, and I don't mean absurdly vulnerable or poorly boundaried in every situation, in every context, but where we know that we're in a safe space with someone, if we can let them know that we're not always okay, you know, that we struggle sometimes. I think there's a real gift in that, that we give them permission to be the same, to be human like us. Right. We say it's sort of. It's okay to be. So we were joking earlier. Someone asked me how I'm doing. My answer is always, how much time do you have? Which is kind of this non detailed way of saying it's complicated. Yeah, Right. And sometimes we stop and have those conversations. Right. It's in. And I share something or they share something with me. And I think those are beautiful moments of contact, you know, when people will get emotional and then they'll apologize for having emotions. And it's like, what a gift you've given me by being this open with me and this. So we want to normalize and support people in there. Some pain came up for them and they were able to touch it and they were able to experience it and they were able to express it now they may have gotten messages that that's not okay. So they want to start packing that back away so we can just let them know what a gift it is to hold that space. So I think those are the gentle kinds of ways we normalize. Like, I always want to normalize and validate those difficult spaces. Right. So when someone is in a grief space, an acute grief space space, someone has just died very close to them and they're, they're, you know, they're saying, well, you know, I'm just glad they're suffering. Not any anymore. And they're with God now. And I'll say, yeah, absolutely, absolutely. So do you hear the and so. Absolutely. And I know you're so sad and it's got to be. Got to be a big loss for you. It's going to take some time for you to heal the pain that you feel right now. So I don't, I don't. I don't attack. I don't confront front that a spiritual bypass. Theologically, it's true. And so I say yes and right. So I'm going to take the spiritual truth for them, which is true. It's true for them. It's what I believe as well. And there is a loss that you've experienced that causes pain here. So I think the more we can hold the and rather than the but or the or, I think the better. A better chance we have of really supporting that person.

What's cool about that? Two things, the modeling and then what you've done in your practice is what I see happening is you're giving someone permission to lean into that negative experience, that negative emotion when you model it. I think because as you were sharing, I was thinking, my kids, my kids are going to watch me. My two sons are going to watch me. And if they see me model spiritual bypass, like, oh, this is the right way to do it. Even though they know dad's not perfect, they're going to see. But if I'm able to say, and we've been doing this, one of my favorite things my family does is we do, as simple as it is, highs and lows. Every dinner, we do highs and lows of the day. And what I've realized is it's a powerful experience for my family every night because I'm giving. I think our friend Kurt Thompson talked about this, that you give your family the opportunity and the safe space to express negative emotion. Sorry, Craig. Not negative emotion. Emotion to express emotion that they might have perceived as maybe negative or they didn't enjoy or some experience during the day that wasn't awesome. And just by offering that space, I give my family permission. I give myself permission to step forward. And then the same thing with your practice, Craig, when you say, yeah, I'm with you, and how does that make you feel? What are you experiencing in this moment? As you think about it, it just gives people permission. And oftentimes people don't want to kick doors down, but if you. If you open them, they're a lot more likely to walk in.

Yeah. Yeah, that's funny, because that's the word I thought of, too, and was thinking about. As a pastor, when I would be doing funerals for families, I'd often meet with the family ahead of time. And that's one of the pieces of advice I'd always give them is say in this process and during the funeral, you're probably going to feel a lot of emotion, and it's okay, whatever it is. There may be points where you're laughing and really glad and you'll feel guilty, like, oh, I should feel bad. It's a funeral. I was like, don't do that. Just be happy. Happy.

And.

And there'll be a point where you're sad or grieving, and you'll feel like, oh, they're in a better place. I shouldn't be sad. Like, that's okay. Or you might be angry at them for being gone, and you'll feel guilt of, how can I be angry at a dead person? Like, that's a normal emotion. Or you may even feel an emotion of relief, like being glad they're gone, because maybe you're done caring for them or done paying for them. And. And you'll feel terrible that I'm glad they're dead. Like, those are just part of being a human. And whatever it is, like, just kind of let's the emotion be there. And don't tell yourself how you're supposed to feel or how you're supposed to respond. Let yourself respond how you will. And I think when people feel that freedom, and that's my hope, that in our pure desire groups is what people are doing, is they feel freedom to feel whatever they are. And if they're in a great place and excited and moving forward, great. And if they're having a week with, like, I hate this. This is dumb. I'm tired of it. To be like, amen, brother. Yeah, I've been there, too. All. All that is a part of going through this journey. And so when people know it's all okay, Then I think we get to be authentic and present and not trying to act like we're supposed to or the way we're supposed to feel. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So, Dr. Craig, you've talked about this, but to go back to our word of the day of integration, when we think of growing and people moving towards greater health, how would you encourage our listeners to work on that? On the integration. Integration of my faith and the psychological work or for others, maybe it's belief and emotion. Like what. What would you say helps people integrate if they are listening and realizing this is something they really struggle with?

Yeah. So I, you know, there's a. There's a passage of scripture that we're all familiar with where Jesus is quoted as saying, be ye therefore perfect. Right. I struggled with that as a mental health professional.

Good luck with that.

One who believed that Jesus was like the great psychologist. I with. Struggled, Struggled with that passage for a long time and heard theologians say, well, it's aspirational. We're not perfect, but we want to aspire to be that. But what I know from a mental health standpoint is that the desire to be perfect is actually psychologically unhealthy because it leaves you feeling like you're never enough. Right. And so what worked for me, and I'm not a biblical scholar, so there may be folks that roll their eyes when I say this. That's okay. It works for me, is that Aramaic scholars, Aramaic would have been the last language that Jesus would have been speaking, actually say, that may not be the best translation. A better translation might be complete or whole.

Yeah.

And it's in the context of scriptures about ripe vines and producing fruit and that sort of thing. So it's about being. Being mature, being whole, being complete. And psychologically that holds really well for me because what we're saying is I'm a child of God and I struggle with unwanted sexual behavior. And that's the completeness. Right. That I can own. And I struggle with unwanted sexual behavior because I have these panic attacks that, that, that drive me to that behavior. Right. And so as we can touch all of those things and find. Find grace and compassion for all of those parts of ourselves, the parts that are. That we love and that we think God loves and the parts that we don't like and we think maybe God's not fond of. Again, if God loves all of us, then we can hold space for all of that. And that is, I think, when we become more complete, become more healed, and we become closer to God.

Yeah.

So.

Yeah. So I think It's. It's. But. And it's hard work. It's hard work, and it's painful work. And I think we have to acknowledge that, too, that it's not. It's not easy by any stretch of the imagination. And with God's help, it's possible.

I think it, too. You know, it seems like a really simple argument, and I think people can argue it against it, you know, from scripture in so many different ways. But if God made us to have emotions and to have thoughts and for, you know, I think of van der Kolk's book Body Keeps the Score. If our body physically wears the trauma that we've experienced and God's created us that way, that when we find scientific discovery as to why things happen, why we experience things the way we do, why we process through addictions the way we do, we do, and we start to see that psychological reality, I think that we're just catching up to the way God already created us to be. And I think, you know, if it's not unbiblical to do research on the brain the way God created the brain, like, wouldn't God want us to understand that more so that we can better apply the truths of Scripture to who we are and how we think and process? And so that's kind of where I'm at right now in that integration, because for me, I found. Find, like, I feel like I'm walking a tightrope oftentimes between psychology and the church, and I'm. I'm, like, holding this really long bar, trying to keep balanced. And I think the older I've gotten, the more I've become secure in that spot, that it's okay to live that balanced life, and it's okay to understand that God created us with emotions, with thoughts, with a brain, with body that reacts and responds different ways. And I think that we're just pressing more into the reality that we already live in and that how God's created, we just have different terminology maybe to describe it. All right, so let's. This has been so good, Craig. And I knew it was going to be good. You know what I mean? We're sitting in PSAP training, and I'm like, we got to get this guy on the podcast. But just, we want to do this a lot. We do this a lot with our outside guests, too. Just any final encouragement. So we want to give you an opportunity to think about the listener out there, someone who's in recovery. Maybe they've just started. Maybe they're a year or two in Maybe we have some spouses out there that are betrayed and are going through their healing. When it comes to spiritual bypass, what would you leave them with as far as encouragement to drop this approach to healing and recovery and. Yeah. And really take those next steps for them in their journey?

Yeah, I would encourage patience because it is work. It is a process. You know, this process of becoming more aware and staying curious about this part of yourself. But, you know, from a. From a faith standpoint, for me, I think a lot about what. What. What are we really sort of called to do? We're called to love God and to love what God loves, and God loves everything. Right. So, again, to me, the core of this is recognizing that God understands our struggles in a way that we can't even fathom and loves us through and through in the midst of all that. And can we even get a glimpse of seeing ourselves through that way, so giving ourselves that grace? And there's a big difference between grace and denying responsibility and making excuses and deflecting and all the things that we know that people do in recovery. But can we be. Can we hold that space of love for ourselves, for God, and for how God loves us? And I think it's in that space that we can find the courage to do this work. And it takes patience and it takes time. Time. Again, there may be epiphanies, but for most of us, this is trusting in the slow work of God. As Teilhardt Chardin said.

Yeah, that's a great word. What I think of as we wrap up is just how in the first pillar, Dr. Ted Roberts brings up that point that recovery requires a radical commitment to reality at all costs. And I think that's what we're talking about here is that radical commitment to staying present and to being present with those we love and with God and not. To me, that's something I really will take away from the spiritual bypass, is that as soon as I begin to disengage from my reality, I'm probably in danger of going into spiritual bypass or, you know, going into addictions. You know, two different roads that people walk there.

But.

But just to be aware of that, like, if I make my goal to stay present, I'm going to face the hard stuff and the emotions, and I'm going to invite people. People in. But it kind of starts that commitment to be present. And that's an encouragement I'd give to everyone today.

Yeah. And I'll just say my takeaway has just been, you know, you talk about the idea of it being a coping strategy, spiritual bypass. Like, we will find any way we can to avoid the pain and, you know, negative experiences that we have. And so, you know, as Nick, as you were mentioning, just press into those. And honestly, this is why community is so important because we all have a tendency to slip right back into spiritual bias bypass to avoid that, because none of us want to feel pain. So we need, we need to stay in community. Craig, this has been amazing. We obviously love you, love your work, have loved this time together with you, and we're just so appreciative of your ministry, of the resources that you've been a part of and you've written, what you do with itap, and for just serving our community. So appreciate you so much. Thank you.

Yeah, yeah, it's my, my pleasure. And I appreciate the work that you folks are doing as well and the healing that you are supporting through your ministry. So thank you as well.

Thank you. And wherever you're at, listener on your journey, pure desire is here to help create a roadmap for your healing. If you or someone you know is impacted by sexual brokenness or betrayal trauma, go to PureDesire.org and let's start the healing journey today. Don't forget to subscribe to the podcast. Each week we put out new content to help you on the road to healing and freedom. And lastly, never stop being healthy.