244 - How To Help Your Spouse Heal From Your Sexual Betrayal

You're listening to the Pure Desire Podcast, your safe place to find hope, healing, and freedom from sexual addiction, betrayal, and relationship issues.

What is up?

I'm your host, Trevor Windsor, and you're listening to episode 244 of the Pure Desire podcast. Here, joining me as always, my co host, Nick Stumbo.

My pleasure.

Okay. I'm trying to make the connection as to why you would say that. Uh, I don't know. Is that like a. I don't know. Are you doing like a. As you wish, but never mind.

There is just one mile from my house, a new fast food establishment that has graced the presence of Gresham, Oregon, that has my whole family singing their praises. And that is, as you know, Chick.

Fil A. Chick Fil A.

And the most common greeting, when you are finished ordering, they say to you, my pleasure. My pleasure.

That's right. I often wonder, like, is it though? Like, you're standing. You're standing in the rain with an iPad, taking my order to say, it's.

Part of their training.

It's so good, though. Okay, so today we had Heather Kolb back on the podcast, and we have talked about this a lot in a lot of different episodes, but have never had just a direct episode on it. And we talked about how the struggling spouse can help the betrayed spouse heal from their sexual betrayal.

Yeah, we want to figure out how to serve them. And you know, at Chick Fil A, when you're being served, they say, it's my pleasure. And sometimes in these relationships, that struggling spouse can be doing what they think they need to do just to say the right words and to serve. And then my spouse is going to see how much better I am. And yet I think in this conversation, we really hit on a lot, that it's a deeper work, it's a slower work, it's a messier work than we often expect. And we've got to be willing to go beyond just kind of, what's that one magical phrase or action I can take? And what's this new way of life I can enter into that could have the potential to help my wife move or my husband, because we know it goes both ways, that could help my betrayed spouse move towards their healing. So, yeah, I thought it was a really insightful episode. And I think there's things here that everyone will really be able to take and hopefully apply to wherever they are at in their relationship.

And let's just remind people too, that even though this episode may be directed toward a struggling spouse, a betrayed spouse can absolutely benefit from this conversation, man. That's why we had Heather on as well, just to add that perspective. So it is really a great episode. I think you'll enjoy the conversation. But a few things before we get to it. Subscribe to the podcast. We're on all the major platforms. Write us a review. It's also super helpful for us. I print them out. Honestly, I'm at the point now where I print them out because they mean so much to us. Also, follow us on social media. We're reedesirepdmi and we have full episodes of these podcasts up on YouTube. Just search Pure Desire Ministries. Nick we have a growing community of people who really are a part of our team in so many ways. And it's been really, really cool over the last really. It feels like five or six months we've had just this team grow and grow and grow. And we want to let people know that they are invited to be a part of what we call Team 58.

Yes, they are. And many of those people are those that will listen to the episode and as they do, they'll remember parts of their story and be like, oh, yeah, I remember when we were there. Yep, I remember walking through that. And often that's an indication that there's a layer of health and healing that' come into your life. And Team 58 members are just people that have. Have looked around and realized through pure desire, God's brought something new into my life, and I want to be a part of passing that on. So team 58 comes from Isaiah 58 and where the prophet says that your salvation will break forth like the dawn. And when you do, when you experience healing, you'll be known as those who rebuild the broken walls and restore the fallen cities. And it's that concept of taking what God has done in me and passing it along to others. And one of the ways is through our financial gifts monthly. It's also through praying and serving and just shar message. And so if you're one of those that can listen to this podcast, yes, you're still learning, but you see areas, you've grown, and God is starting to move in your heart. Say, I want you to pass this message along. We'd love to have you join team 58. It gives you some access to our team and information as we communicate with that team that, that I think you'll appreciate. And just that sense that you're a part of something that matters. I mean, we all invest in things in this world, but how many of those things truly matter? So we hope Our listeners invest in their local church. We hope they invest in other ministries they believe in, but we also hope they might consider is. Is this one of those ministries that I want to be a part of, Seeing how God uses it in the future and passing the story of healing on to many, many others?

Yeah. So if you want to become a monthly donor to Pure Desire Ministries and join Team 58, go to PureDesire.org give. Alright, here's our conversation with Heather Kolb on how to help our spouses heal from our sexual betrayal. Heather Kolb, welcome back.

Thanks for having me back again.

I just, like, I'm anticipating it being awkward, specifically you and Ashley. I don't know why, but it just looks like something's gonna be awkward. Like, I give you a whole month of podcasts and now, you know, I don't know, maybe it's less awkward this time. Anyways, so today we want to talk about the reality that when sexual addiction, pornography, at any level of sexual brokenness invades a marriage, it does major damage. Trust is broken, trauma is experienced, and sometimes this doesn't happen, but more often than not, the marriage blows up to some degree. So there's a lot of healing that needs to take place. And one of the questions that we often hear from a struggling spouse is, is there really anything I can do to help? Like, you know, especially if they're in recovery a little bit, they're like, look, man, I'm getting some healing. Like, why won't my spouse just hurry up and get better already? And so we wanted to talk about, is there anything we can do or there are ways that a struggling spouse can contribute to the healing of a betrayed spouse. So we're going to look at this a little bit deeper today. The first question really is point blank, and we're looking more for yes or no just to kind of create a baseline for it. Is there anything that we can do to help our betrayed spouse heal even though we're the one that hurt them?

Yes, I think there is definitely ways that they can help. And also keeping in mind that betrayal trauma exists on a continuum. So, you know, that's going to probably weigh into a lot of what we talk about today. But I would say that in general that yes, there are things that the struggling spouse can do to help their partner when it comes to their healing.

Yeah, yeah.

I think we want to keep in mind the heart of this episode and we'll talk about it a lot, but it's what can I do to help? And if our mindset shifts to how can I fix them? Or how can I, you know, just stop their anger and make it all better? That sometimes we're looking to really skip over parts of the healing process and avoid pain or uncomfortable things that we might need to walk through, because we're just trying to make them or the relationship get better quicker. And that actually can be unhealthy because we might be trying to subvert a really healthy process that needs to take place. So I think if we can keep in this mindset of what can I do to help? What might I do to help? That would create the greatest environment for them to move into their own healing, then, yes, there's a lot we can do. But if we're asking the question like, well, can I fix my spouse or can I make them better? It's like, well, not really. And if that's your goal, you're probably going to do things that in the long run make it worse, not better.

When I think a lot of us specifically struggling spouses can slip into that mindset and not even realize it, which is why we're doing this episode, because we feel like it's something that. And even as we were putting the detail sheet together and everything that came up that we talked about this a lot before, this is not a new topic, but we've never just sat with this topic specifically in this perspective. And so that's the whole point is because so often we can slip right into this without even knowing that we're trying to fix. Or to support is not the word. Like we tend to try to fix, as you were saying, or make our spouse better. When it's like, have you ever tried making yourself better? It doesn't work.

So before we get into ideas or ways that we might help our spouse heal, let's just walk a little bit into a fundamental understanding of betrayal trauma. So what are some of the aspects of betrayal trauma that would be helpful? Specifically sexual betrayal that would be helpful for the struggling spouse to understand or to keep in mind as they think about this.

So I think that there, I mean, and we'll talk about a lot of different things, but I think one of the key things to remember is that following discovery or disclosure that a betrayed partner has never experienced this before, ever. So they might not know exactly how they're feeling, what they're thinking. They might not even recognize that the anxiety or depression or anything else that they're feeling in their brain and in their body is connected directly to the betrayal. And I just think that that idea of just being Patient with them. Because again, when shock and the trauma and just feeling overwhelmed and even as more information is revealed, you know, all of those things are going to play a huge role in how a partner responds. And again, they might not even know how to communicate that or even really fully understand what's going on, especially initially when betrayal becomes aware.

Yeah, it's just so difficult because you. I mean, this has been my experience, and I don't have a marriage that blew up and didn't have tons of crisis. But I didn't do these things to hurt my spouse. It wasn't an intentional act to go at them or to make their life miserable or blow my marriage up. Doesn't mean that I'm not fully responsible for what I did and the damage I caused. That's not. It's not to avoid that. But I think that that's what's so hard, is that you are in so many ways the one that brought this onto that spouse. And so that means that you're going to feel the consequences of that. And I think that that's something that we assume. If I can get myself into this situation, I can sure get my. Out of it. It's like, well, yes and no. I mean, to even the first question, can you help? My thought is yes and no. Yes, there are some things that you can do to help, but there's a lot you can't do that has to be done by your spouse and has to be done by the community around you to create that safe space for you guys to both heal. But that's what's so hard. But I think that we need to understand that in this moment that there's going to be a lot of opportunity for you to feel shame that I caused this and it's all my fault. And I think that to some degree, you have to feel that. You have to feel the consequences in the way of the decisions that you made and the, you know, just wreckage that it's caused. But at the same time, to understand that you can't just sit in that and wallow in that and allow that to. Because in so many ways, that shame will motivate you to go back to that old behavior that got you there in the first place.

I think on the flip side, we also have to be willing to go to some of those places because the element of betrayal, trauma, that I wish I would have had someone explain me much, much earlier in my marriage, and it's really true of any kind of trauma, that when a person is in trauma, their perception is their reality. So if I've gone through something traumatic that makes me feel like the world is an unsafe place, whether it is or not, that's my reality. I am viewing a world as an unsafe place. If my trauma makes me feel like people can't be trusted, that's my reality. And unless you're willing to work with me where I find reality, I'm not going to be open to your help or to your input. And so for me, as the struggling spouse that deeply wounded my wife, I had to be willing to accept that her perception of our marriage, of my character, of my decisions, that was her reality. And even if I had a comeback or a feeling like, whoa, that's not entirely accurate, that wasn't ever going to be helpful because she wasn't trying to look for logic or, you know, in a greater scheme of things, what was truth and what's not. She was processing what she was feeling. And so I think for those struggling spouses out there, if your betrayed spouse feels like you're a monster and you're like, whoa, wait, a monster like this, that's her reality. Or if they feel like you can't be trusted or you're not safe, or when you go to work, they don't know that they feel safe with the choices you're making, to argue and protest how they're experiencing this world isn't going to help. So just embracing that idea that their perception is their reality, and I've got to be willing to meet them there, even if I'm seeing it differently because I was the struggling spouse.

Right. A quick question, just kind of something that I think is interesting. And you guys did an interview with Cindy and Dusty Gillingham recently, you and Ashley did, and that was a different perspective. That was the female who was the one who was the struggling spouse, and then the male being the betrayed spouse. Is there a difference kind of in that same conversation of, are there elements to betrayal trauma? Are there unique aspects to male and female experiencing betrayal? Betrayal trauma, and how a male or female struggling spouse would be in this process of trying to help or trying to bring more healing to their marriage, Are there differences between the two? Do you get what I'm asking?

I do. And so part of the problem with that is that most of the research that's been done has been done on a female betrayed partner. And so it's hard to know exactly, but even just based on the interview that we did with Cindy and Dusty, just to hear him describe how he felt and what he went through and all of that was very, very familiar, you know, and even a little bit triggering, you know, because it was so much the same as what, you know, women have gone through.

Yeah.

So, I mean, I would say that there could be some differences just based on maybe the relational aspects of it, but. But even listening to Dusty, it. It seemed very much the same.

Yeah. So one of the things, it's funny because the question that I'm going to ask is what are no nos when it comes to pushing or trying to help our betrayed spouse in the healing process? And oftentimes they seem to be very logical. Well, for sure, if I do this and I work really hard and I do the dishes every day and I come home early and I get flowers and all these things that these are loving, these are ways to rebuild trust. What are some of those things that would make sense logically, but at the same time are the exact opposite of what a betrayed spouse needs in that moment?

So I think that when you talk about no nos, it's doing things like also denying things, justifying. I mean, because there's going to be times where the betrayed partner is angry and they're just angry because they didn't want this, they didn't ask for this. It wasn't anything that they did that. That caused this or created this in the marriage. And so I think that sometimes when it comes to, you know, justifying, which is a normal human response, we want to defend ourselves, especially when we're being accused of something. And even if it's true, we tend to still want to justify our behavior. But even things like, specifically things like telling them, telling the partner that, well, you've experienced other trauma that's worse than this, that's not really helpful, or to say things like, well, I just want you to get better so we can have sex again, that's not helpful. You know what I mean? But even when it comes to wanting them to pursue their own healing, because I think that that's something that once the struggling spouse gets into a group and starts healing, they recognize how much it's benefiting them and they want to help. And this is probably a help fix it, but it comes from a really good place to just recognize that their spouse, their betrayed partner, needs group or needs healing too. But sometimes they maybe are not even the person to say it just because there is no trust there and there isn't any. I mean, everything is broken. And so it might not be the best. They might not be the best person to encourage their partner to get into or to find healing yeah, Yeah.

I think you hit on something really key there, which is that if I'm trying to help you just so that it helps me so that I feel better.

Yeah.

It's ultimately probably not going to go well. Like you said about if it's so that I get sex or just that, that I'm happier or that I feel better or I don't feel guilty because as long as you're hurt by what I did, I feel guilt. So I'm comfortable with how I feel. So I'm trying to make you better so I'm better. That's just not the right motive. That when we're trying to help our spouse, we really got to come back to some fundamentals of I'm trying to care for them because I love them and I want to see their good regardless of what that looks like or means for me. And yes, with a belief that if I have a happy, thriving spouse, that's going to be good for our relationship and for our home. Yes. But if my motive is my good.

Right.

It's just going to twist the way I'm trying to help them. So be on the lookout for that. And some no no's that I discovered and I've mentioned these on other podcasts, but any way that you're insinuating to your spouse they need to hurry up and heal is just not going to help. And I know we might push back, like, well, wait, are you giving them permission just to stay hurt and angry forever and like. No, no, we're not saying that. But like Heather was mentioning, you're not the one to tell them what pace they should be moving at. So just whatever time it takes, it takes. And you need to have a lot of grace for that. The other. No no. Is just trying to use your words to make it better and believing you can fix it by saying the right thing. Now, I'd follow that up to say your words do matter, but they matter in the context that they align with your actions. So, yes, say words like, I love you, I care about you, but make sure those are also connected to actions that show your love and your care and your concern. Because I would try to use words just to convince my wife, hey, it's all better. So now we can move on. Right?

Yeah.

And really those words became so hollow. So if words and fixing it through what you tell her is kind of your go to, just be aware, that's probably going to start to work against you where your words will just ring really hollow.

Yeah, that's good.

Another thing That I thought of is like when you maybe are in recovery and you're in group and you're experiencing some self discovery and you start to find connections that even sharing those really cool connections or discoveries you've made can sound like justification, can sound like manipulation in so many ways. And so just be careful. I mean, those self discoveries are important. And if, you know, you just gotta approach it like, how is this gonna be interpreted? Like if I say, you know what I realized today? The only reason I've been looking at pornography and masturbating, the only reason I had that affair is because my dad was a jerk. It's like, how do you think your spouse is going to feel about that? It's just like, really, it's your dad's fault. So things like that I think are really important to just gauge and maybe ask your group if you do feel like it's important. Do you think this is something I should share with my spouse? I feel like that's an important thing. Another thing too is that when we start to make connections in our own recovery and our own story, we tend to start to see those connections in other people's story. And so when you go to your spouse and try to make those connections for them, it's like, you know what, what I just did reminds me a lot of what your dad did to you when you were a kid. It's like that again, in so many ways, just feels like you're explaining away your behavior and not taking ownership for it. And so I think your own self discovery and maybe the discovery you're having for other people, be careful what you share with your spouse, Especially in this season where it's so hard and discovery and crisis is going on.

So Heather, you've already mentioned that a lot of this exists on a spectrum. And there's definitely betrayed spouses on the further edge of the spectrum that are truly discovering they're in a very unsafe relationship. It's not wise or even practical for them to stay in the relationship. But for a lot of other people that are maybe more, let's say, somewhere in the middle of the spectrum that see a struggling or addicted spouse who's they're going to group or maybe they're in counseling together, they see there's some efforts being made. What are ways that a betrayed spouse could open themselves up and allow their struggling spouse to bring some healing or help? When is that wise and when is it really not the right time or place?

That is a great question. I think that it really, I mean, it really depends on where the couple is at. And I think that idea of building trust, that takes time. You know, I think that sometimes for the struggling spouse, you know, they're doing all the right things and they're going to group, and even in their behaviors are good, but maybe they've been doing that for a few months, and yet they struggled for 18 years in the marriage. And so I think that. Not that things need to be equal, but I also think that longevity is going to play out in that trust that they keep doing all the right things. And even, like you had mentioned earlier, Nick, that letting their behaviors reinforce their words, I think that that is really important. And I think there's also. When we talk about that betrayal exists on a continuum or on a spectrum, I think there's also a difference between a struggling spouse who's looking at porn and masturbating compared to a struggling spouse who has an affair, compared to a struggling spouse who has an affair with the partner's best friend. You know what I'm saying? All of those things are going to require different things in the healing process. And I think it's great if the couple is having counseling and doing all of those things, but I think that there has to be some consideration given to what was involved in the betrayal to begin with, that I just think that that's going to be a factor in how much time it takes to rebuild that trust in the relationship. Does that make sense?

Totally.

Okay.

Something that's coming to mind is thinking about how the church or how our faith communities tend to encourage betrayed spouses. In this moment, like we talked about it in the last episode, just the idea of just forgive and move on and then forgive quick, because forgiveness obviously equals restoration. So just do it. So your marriage will be okay and you guys will be fine. I think that a betrayed spouse needs to. And this is just from my vantage point, from my understanding and the research and studying I've done, is that if they don't feel comfortable moving forward or taking a certain step, that's okay. It's okay to feel what you feel. You talked about that already, Nick. But that idea. It's okay to feel what you feel. It's okay to not be ready to take that step yet and to not rush into that. And so I think that, you know, there may be messages that a betrayed spouse is getting from their friends or from their faith community. It's like, no, you really need to give your spouse. You need to just forgive. You need to. Yeah, you need to sleep in the same Bed. Yeah, you probably should pursue sex. It's like if you're not comfortable and you don't feel safe, it's okay to not be there. I think you need to give yourself, as weird as it sounds, give yourself grace and be patient with yourself. Even in that doesn't mean that you're sitting on your hands, not pursuing your own healing and trying to bring about that restoration. But to not rush into it, I think is just something I would encourage.

I think it's healthy to acknowledge that in relationships there will almost always be a slower spouse. And I don't mean that in a derogatory way, but just to say sometimes it's the struggler or the addict that they're, they're not making progress very quickly and they're holding the relationship back. Other times it's the betrayed, traumatized spouse that's, that's needing more time and that's normal. It's very rare that a couple is in step in recovery at the same pace, moving forward together. So if that's the dynamic, there will always be a little bit of a tension in the relationship of who's maybe at a place where they're experiencing some growth quicker than the other. And if, if you feel like maybe you're that spouse, I think your primary call is to, to look at the other spouse with just a lot of grace and prayerfulness and hope that whatever needs to happen in their journey will happen. And so right now, if you are the slower spouse, to use that terminology, that's okay because there will probably come, honestly, seasons where it flips, where you start to find some real traction and get support. And then you look at your spouse who's maybe having some versions of a lapse or relapse, and now you feel like the strong one. Just there is a balance there in relationships where we're not always going to be in step together. And so in any relationship where you're a little bit out of step, how can I have an attitude of grace and prayerfulness for where my spouse is at? And one other thing I would just add about this that I thought was helpful for my wife as she worked through betrayal and that trauma. It was really, really important for her to find her voice and really be able to speak up in our relationship. And this related to things she discovered about some family of origin issues that she felt like her voice didn't always matter. And so what finding her voice looked like in our relationship is that she was able to communicate to me, here's what I need from you. And for us in particular, one of those was, I need you to show that my schedule or my work is just as important as yours and is taken as seriously as yours. Because I had grown up in ministry circles in a ministry family, and I honestly had a mindset that was like, well, I'm a pastor, and my needs and my schedules of pastor are primary. And then, like, whatever time we have left, we'll kind of figure out what my wife needs. And it so contributed to her feeling less than not valued, not heard, not seen. So for her to be able to voice that and in an appropriate way, I mean, she wasn't demanding or demeaning with it. But to say, I need you to know that you have done a lot in our relationship to make me feel like my things don't matter as much as yours. And I say that because, like, that was really insightful for me to hear and begin to recognize. Because then I also knew an area in our marriage I could do some work on. It's like, oh. Because I think as the struggling spouse, we can get so fixed on. I need to stop the bad behaviors. And. Yes, you do. That's part of it, too. But if that's all we focus on, we can miss that. There are a whole host of other things that I've maybe done that create some of that ongoing trauma for them or communicate a message that just furthers the wounding. And when I can hear that from my spouse, here's what I need from you, then I can work on fixing that area. I can do my part in that area. And I just think if you're that spouse walking through betrayal, as you find your voice and see what you need, being willing to say that, say, here's what I need from you, that if we're going to grow, if we're going to make progress, I'm going to need to see these things happening. And that's, I think, in a way, a gift that you give your spouse.

Totally.

And even just to reiterate that process of just for the betrayed partner, this is going to be, especially initially, a very, very slow process. Just because their brain, their world, has been turned upside down, and now they're trying to navigate all of the things they did before, plus have this overwhelming sense that is just taking over their brain and body and feelings and everything. And so because the world as they knew it doesn't exist anymore. And so it is a very, very slow process, which is really, I think, one of the best ways for healing to take place, especially at the beginning, because I think that then the partner is more likely to find their way voice and become more emotionally aware and stable and. And be able to say what they need. You know, say it out loud.

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So I think that a lot of times what we see at Pure Desire is that we have the struggling spouse who gets into a group because their life is in chaos and they're in crisis. And it seems like they start in a group or counseling first, and then several months later, then the partner finds, you know, gets into a group. And so I think that, because that tends to be kind of normal, but at some point they are learning about the same tools and learning about the same things. And, and so really when they get to a point where even their language is the same, that is so helpful them to be healing kind of. And I almost feel like to some extent they kind of catch up with each other at, at some point in that healing process. They can even use their faster scales together. You know, every week they can share their three circles with their spouse and just say, these are some things. And, and Even if maybe the spouse has some insight into, oh, well, this might be a good thing in your middle circle, or this might be, I think that, that they can get to that point where they are healing really on the same path in the same direction for sure. And like you said, in tandem. I think it's very possible.

Yeah. We've talked a lot about the value if both spouses are in group and they have a supportive community around them where they can go somewhere outside the marriage, to be honest, to be real, to get guidance and direction. As you've already said, Heather, if you're the struggling spouse, you're often not the person they can hear it from. So if they have a group and wise counsel in their life, that's just so valuable. And it's also the reason we've done counseling as couples for couples for a long time, because we want both husband and wife together to be hearing from the same sources. Now, I know a lot of couples that they are both in counseling, but they're in counseling maybe with different people in different even counseling offices who don't even really confer or work off the same page. And so sometimes they might even be hearing conflicting messages. So if, if you're in that situation and can find a way to get counsel by a couple or from the same source where you know they're working off the same playbook, that can really matter a lot. And sometimes it may be as simple as having a couple go through Sexual Integrity 101 together, our eight part video series where, like you said, Heather, they're hearing the same language, they're starting to use the same terminology. And even if maybe the betrayed spouse is at a point they don't want to do group, they don't want, they're just, they're not ready. But they could start to learn and not understand and hear, that could just be a positive step in the right direction. So I, I think if you're the struggling spouse, what I would want to say to you is like, whatever step your betrayed spouse is willing to take, be grateful for it and go with it. And if, if that's just right now, one inch is all they're willing to do, like, okay, once a week we could sit down and go through this book together. Like, be thankful for that. And don't, you know, keep badgering about why not this and why not that, like, go at the speed they're at and trust that as you continue to do your work and engage fully in that, God's going to do the work to move that Spouse closer towards an active recovery in their own life.

I like what you're saying, because I think I've heard a lot of group members say this, that when is she. Or when is he going to start working on his stuff, too? I'm working really hard here, and it's just contingent. Basically, our marriage is contingent on have I relapsed or not this week? And it's like, well, what about their perspective or what they're struggling with or what they're going through? And that's a legitimate place to get to. I can totally understand that. But understand. And we've had this. And I can't even remember who might have been Rosie McKinney. I think you even might have mentioned it in that podcast, Nick. But basically, the house they lived in just blew up. And there are bricks everywhere. And that, like, one thing, that one maybe activity you can do together is just one of those bricks you can put back and start rebuilding that again. And so it may be really small, and it may be the slowest rebuild you've ever been a part of, but it is the house you want to rebuild. It is the relationship you want to rebuild. And so.

And then Rosie said, and don't get discouraged if they kick down the wall.

That's right.

Because that anger comes out or there's kind of a sticking point, like, hey, keep at it.

Right. And I think, you know, for. For a struggling spouse out there that feels that. That man, like, it. It's all about, like, my journey. When is it going to be about our journey? I think that that's the beauty of group. I think that that's the place where you can flesh that out and you can have those conversations and talk to your group members about it. Because going home and just be like, will you just. Will you catch up already? Like, that conversation's not going to go well. You know, it's going to create. It's probably going to motivate your spouse to go kick a couple of the walls you just built down, you know? So I think that just my encouragement is that that's why group, whether you have finished your first group and maybe getting into another one or you're taking a break, having that conversation with group members is really helpful because you have someone you can share that with and they can add perspective and remind you of reality. Yeah.

So we know how important communication is in any relationship and in a marriage in particular. So if we're the struggling spouse, Heather, what level of communication should we be having about our journey? What is appropriate kind of things to be sharing with our spouse and where might we be over sharing or even inadvertently re. Traumatizing them by getting too. Too much into topics they're not ready for.

Yeah, that is a great question. I'll never forget being at a conference one year and there was a woman who. Her and her husband had been at the conference all weekend, and it's the second day and she's probably nine months pregnant, easy. With their second child. And at every break throughout the entire conference, he's disclosing something. By the end of the day, she was just beyond. She was bawling. We spent almost the whole entire women's Q and A just encouraging her and praying over her and. Because that's not a good. That's not good timing.

Okay.

Because she. I mean, they were new to pure desire. She didn't have any support. She was pregnant, about to deliver. And so that is a definite no. But I still think, though, there are things that. Because part of that, the rebuilding trust is being honest with your spouse. And even when it comes to relapse, that may happen to be able to disclose that in appropriate timing in a short amount of time with your spouse is always very important. But you also want to take into consideration everything else that your spouse is going through. That if your partner has just experienced a death in their family and you relapse at the the same time, you definitely should disclose to your group first and then seek counsel about that because you don't want to heap trauma on top of trauma. And it also depends on the partner. I mean, I think that I'm one of those people that I always want the truth so I can process all of the information. I want it up front and I don't care what else is going on. But I know other people who are a different temperament. It. That might be too much for them and might put them push them over the edge. So I think that it's just important to pay attention to whatever else is going on and that you're always truthful with your spouse because that's huge in that communication process and that rebuilding trust, those seem to really go together, I think.

You know, another thing that is coming to mind right now is sometimes there might be discoveries that you have in group where you get a little bit of understanding toward your betrayed spouse. You're really maybe even for the first time experiencing levels of empathy toward your spouse. Wow. Wow. When I did this, I can see why that was so hurtful. And we've talked about this a lot on the podcast too. Where a betrayed spouse has to go back and almost rewrite the entire history. Most times the entire history of a relationship. And it's like, well, was that a real moment? Had he relapsed before or after that? What was that like to where if you start to discover some things where you can empathize, those are great things to share. You have to, again, it's be selective, find out where your spouse is truly at, but those moments where it's not just, hey, I'm figuring out more about myself and why I'm a terrible person into terrible things like, okay, to some degree, that may be helpful to share from time to time, but if you can share, you know, I realized today that when I did this certain act, I get why it was so hurtful for you. I understand more. I think that that goes a long way. And again, don't fabricate it. It's not something where you got to come up with something every single week. But I think that those moments where you can express that you're thinking more outside of just yourself and your own journey, and you're looking at your spouse and trying to be understanding and empathetic. I think if you find discovery, sharing, those can be helpful for a relationship.

Yeah. I think of the phrase read the room, because I know there were times in our marriage and in this disclosure process and pure desire process that. But honestly, Michelle was like, I don't care. I don't care what you're learning. I don't care what you're feeling. I don't care what you did at group. Like, I don't care because I'm angry, and I don't want to hear about what you're learning. So in some of those seasons, I just had to. You kind of have to swallow those things and be like, I'm sorry that I've hurt you, and I'm sorry you're in a lot of pain. And let. And I would try to say, like, let me know if there's anything I can do and just be willing to leave it at that, because sometimes I think the spouse just needs you to go do your thing, Be a good dad, be a good husband, go to work, keep your word. And they don't want to hear anything else because they're just not ready. And if you're in one of those seasons, I've been there. It's not fun, but it will pass if you are consistent and you're staying humble and looking for, what does it look like to serve my spouse this week and this week it Might be to just shut up and do the dishes and not look for anything else, and that's okay. And other weeks, it might be to do the dishes and share what I learned in group, and that's helpful to them. So I think you've got to read where your spouse is at and. And be willing to enter in at whatever level is appropriate for that season.

Yeah, well, and I think that that's even really hard for the betrayed partner, too, because from their perspective, this person who I share my life with, who I. Every single day of our married life, I could come home, I could share my life with them, I could tell them that anything, and now that person is gone. And so for them, it's devastating. So I think that even though I know it's hard for the struggling spouse, but I also think that the whole process is really, really difficult for the partner as well.

Another aspect of the recovery and healing journey is establishing boundaries. And boundaries are for safety. Right. And in so many ways, boundaries help create the breeding ground for trust to be rebuilt and for intimacy and recovery to happen. But oftentimes, for a struggling spouse, those feel like consequences and not boundaries. And so what does it look like for betrayed? Well, what does it look like for the struggling spouse to be supportive? I mean, I realize how difficult this is, even in asking the question, but how can a struggling spouse learn to support and honor the boundaries of a betrayed spouse?

Yeah, I think that that is a really challenging one, because you're right, it does feel punitive, I think, for the struggling spouse. And at the same time, it really is what a partner needs to feel safe. Because if you even feel. If you understand that their whole world, even their home, might now feel tainted by the betrayal, and they don't even feel safe in their own home, this place that they love and should be their sanctuary. It is really hard, I think, for. Well, for both people in the marriage. And so really just to. To encourage the struggling spouse to, as much as possible, say, yes. Say if your spouse says. If your partner says, I need this to feel safe in our home, then say, okay, I need this to feel safe in our home. Or I need this to feel safe. Or I need even sometimes it might be, I need for you to not go to the gym. I need for you to not be on Facebook. I need for you to not have relationships with female co workers. Any of those things that might be honestly what they need to feel safe. And as hard as that is, I don't know. And sometimes it might not even seem realistic. But if you're wanting to save your marriage, then you should be willing to do whatever.

The next question that comes to mind right away is, is there ever a line, like, where it's like, okay, once a boundary becomes this, it's no longer a boundary. It is punitive and it's unrealistic and isn't helpful. Is there ever a moment where we can acknowledge that and press into that? Or is it more of just kind of a blanket say yes whenever you possibly can to a boundary?

Well, so if your spouse, if your betrayed partner says that a boundary for me is that you sleep outside in the rain every night for a month, that seems a little unrealistic to me. But to be able to say, I don't feel safe in our home, and I don't feel safe with you sleeping in our home at night. So if you could find somewhere else to sleep for this amount of time, that to me, seems more realistic to me. And so I would say yes. You know, that there is a line where something shouldn't be over the top.

It's so tender.

It is, yes. And I think you need to tread lightly. But, yeah, it's tough. Super tough.

Yeah. I think that's where, for the struggling spouse, we need other people in our life that we can go to because it's likely in our rationalization, denial, minimizing of the behavior, we're going to think that line is in a much different place than our betrayed spouse. And we're going to be like, this is so unfair. And you take it to group. Like, can you believe she's asking me to do this? And your group will go, yeah, that's totally normal. You need to do that. Oh, really? Oh, okay. Because they're not usually asking you to, you know, sleep in the rain and in for 30 days and those kind of things. It's. It might be something like, she told me I have to get rid of my smartphone. It's like, well, yeah, if that's going to make her feel safe, you should, I think, where does it cross the line? It's like if. If there is no obvious connection at all between the wounds, what you've done and what she's asking, then I think you might want to go again to your group and ask some questions. Or just like. Like she's saying, I need to sell my business because she's mad at me. And. But that's how we make a living. And I don't, you know, so some of those things just might be helpful to get other people's input on. But I remember early on in our journey, as we started to share our story, that was a blog I wrote about, like, you know, essentially put your money where your mouth is. Because a lot of us, as struggling spouses, have said to an angry, betrayed spouse, I would do whatever it takes to fix this. And then they tell us, okay, this is what it would take. I need you to get rid of your laptop. Like, whoa, whoa, whoa. Like, oh, I thought you said you would do whatever it takes. And if that's whatever it takes. And usually these kind of questions that we're talking about right now are happening within the first few months or even weeks of discovery of the betrayal becoming known. Now, if you're still having that same conversation at year three, that she doesn't trust you to even look at a computer, like, like, okay, now we're. Now we're needing to have some more conversations. But I think in those initial phases, there may be a really high need for a betrayed spouse to feel safe, and you really need to try to do what you can to create that environment for them.

Yeah, I don't know why the Meatloaf song, I would do anything for love, but I won't do that. I don't even know if that applies.

But anyways, so we've talked a lot on the podcast that recovery can be a long process. Might be be three to five years for the struggling spouse, for the relationship. What does that timeline look like, Heather, for the betrayed spouse, is it going to be years of a process? Or what might they expect? And how would you talk about their timeline in terms of helping a struggling spouse learn what we've been saying? Learn patience.

So during the AppSats training, Carol Sheets, she had shared with us kind of this timeline, which seemed really practical. And she works with both the struggling spouse and the betrayed spouse. And she broke it down to say that the first nine to 12 months, typically is when both spouses are in their own group. They're learning some tools. They're learning, you know, kind of what it looks like to pursue health. And the second, maybe 18 to 24 months, they're practically applying those tools, living them out in their daily lives, basically trying to sink those into a rhythm toward healing. And then the remaining three to five years, that's when they basically recalibrate the relationship, where they're working more on the relationship together moving forward than on their own separate healing. So I think that that's an excellent timeline. The other thing to consider when it comes to a betrayed partner is to look at also whether or not they develop symptoms of PTSD or even complex PTSD based on any other traumatic experiences that they've had that maybe where they haven't had healing that rise to the surface? Because I think that that also could extend this healing process a little bit more for a betrayed partner.

Yeah, I try to help guys in group just take that long view of, like. Like, it'll probably take your spouse longer than you expect to get back to normal or to that healthy place. And then if it's quicker than that, hey, that's awesome. But if your mindset is like, I mean, I've even told the guy, like, just tell yourself, this might take 10 years for my marriage to be back at a healthy place. I said, now, statistically, probably not. But wouldn't you rather be having that mindset of, like, I'm going to walk in this for 10 years, if that's what it takes, versus thinking, oh, this will be three months, we'll be back to normal. And then at months, you know, three months and two days, it's not fixed. And now you're frustrated and angry at them. And yeah, so there is something healthy. If we're the struggling spouse, just taking that long view of it's going to take as long as it takes. And I'm going to do these things, not again, not to make my wife better. So I feel better. I'm going to be willing to walk as long as it takes, because that's what it means to love my spouse and to stay humble and to serve them. And I really think God will use that in the long run.

And I think that a spouse can pick up on that. You know, like, are you in this for the quick fix just so we can get back to normal and create a baseline, or are you in it for the long run? Like, you know, because if you are willing, if you're absolutely willing to do what is absolutely necessary to save your marriage, to restore your marriage and to create a marriage that's better than you ever thought possible. Like, there are tendencies for people who think that way. You know, you're not looking for, like, I think of someone who's maybe looking for the quick fix, comes home every day. And a lot of us fall into this, especially early in recovery. It's like, well, look what I did today, and look what step I took in recovery. And it's like, you're trying to basically present your resume for recovery to your spouse every day. It's like, well, you know, that's just stupid to your betrayed spouse initially, for sure. But I Think that if you, I think of someone who is looking toward the future, that 10 year perspective, that's someone who's just going to faithfully, every day just do the next step step and is going to take that level of humility and it's going to take some time maybe to get there. But I think over the first, you know, at least six to nine months of recovery, you're going to see that person, their demeanor just change. So I think that spouses can pick up on that pretty quick too. Part of the healing process and I'm really excited about this question because I've seen this even in some of my friend groups and communities over the years. A part of a betrayed spouse's healing is sharing what has happened, being in a group with people who've experienced the same thing and sharing. And if your addicted or struggling spouse knows that's part of the process, there's going to be a, like, hold on a second. You have to tell everyone like what I've done, like, I don't understand that. And then I've seen this too, where a betrayed spouse will feel disloyal to their spouse who's struggling by airing the dirty laundry. How can a struggling spouse get to that point where they understand, look, this is a part of the healing process for my spouse that I've hurt. I have sexually betrayed my spouse and they need to have room to process it. How do you get there as a struggling spouse? What encouragement would you give to us that are struggling out there?

Yeah. And again, another really tough part of the process because for the betrayed partner, they have to be able to say things out loud and not usually just one time. Because even, and I know this just from being in betrayal and beyond groups, is that even over time there might be new things of the story that come out. And so, you know, even, even where it's just that, okay, here's the bulk of it. Oh yeah, but then this happened. But then this happened. Yeah. And the way that the betrayed partner is sharing it, it isn't really. I mean sometimes it is actually in like this angry way. But a lot of times they're just devastated and broken and really just trying to process everything out loud. And it isn't in the attempt to hurt their struggling spouse, but it's really beneficial to their healing to be able to say it out loud. And just because we all know that part of that is that the first time they say it, they're bawling, they're just crying, they can't believe it, they can't even gain composure. And that happens several times in the process.

And.

But at some point they reach a place where it doesn't have that emotional pull over them anymore, that they're getting to a healthier place where they can understand it. And they still, it still might make them sad, but they're not bawling. And so I just think that it is a hard place for the spouses to be. But. But I know that there are some, some women especially that they didn't get healing because they didn't want to ever slander their spouse. They didn't ever want to say anything. And so for years they kept this secret and they just deteriorated inside. And it kept them out of community and it kept them, you know. And so the flip side of it is so much more hurtful and harmful to a betrayed partner than really having again, that safe space in your group, in your community. It's not like you're telling everyone Sunday morning church service what's happening, but you have these safe people. And sometimes I think it's really even a great way to practice because at some point you might end up telling your kids and at some point you might tell your extended family and, you know, and so. And I think that as we've seen so much in pure Desire, that it does become such a great part of the healing journey, but super tough process going in.

Yeah, I think that's what's great about having a Pure Desire group, A place that is set up to be confidential and safe. Because often if a betrayed spouse doesn't have a safe, confidential place, they're trying to get it out and process it. They may find themselves sharing places they maybe shouldn't be searching when they're on the stage. Yeah, if you're the struggling spouse, like that scenario, you really want to champion their participation in group. They're going to a counselor and even saying to them, like, whatever you need to share with your group, say it. I don't care if the rest of your group hates me and thinks I'm a terrible person. If it's a place you can process that, don't hold back knowing that it's especially a pure desire group where the material is set up in such a way and the leader's been trained in such a way that it's not just a husband bashing session. It's not just bad mouth our husbands. It really is walking through a process of getting on the outside what we've been holding on the inside. And if you're the struggling spouse, just encourage it. Offer that, like, and. Or if they have a safe friend where, you know, like, boy, we both really trust Christy. So, honey, if you're ever meeting with Christy and you want to share, I mean, even stuff we're in the middle of, I feel totally comfortable you sharing with Christy. Don't feel like you have to hide anything. And then I think as a married couple, there are places you kind of know together, like, hey, this could cost us maybe our income or a job, if that was known, or if it came out in the wrong way or the wrong person took it to mean something. It doesn't. So I think just being conscious of, we don't want to destroy one another. The goal is health and recovery and where possible, redeeming the marriage. So really, as the struggling spouse, when you can encourage those safe, healthy, appropriate places, give your wife or your husband, if that's the case, that permission, like, hey, when you're with them, you tell them whatever you need to, and you have my permission. You don't have to even double check with me. Like, you just need to work through it. And I'm okay with that.

Not that it's never happened before, but rarely do I feel like people respond negatively when someone is being humble and empathetic toward them. And I feel like those are the two. Two things that a spouse, when they're saying, look at group, you can be honest. Look with this friend, you can be honest. Because I know it's part of the process, and I know that you need to make sense and process through this for you to heal. That shows humility that it's not about me, it's not about protecting me or my reputation, and it's about being empathetic, understanding that's part of the process. And so I think those principles could preach anywhere, but especially here, I think those two are important.

Okay, Heather, we're getting kind of towards the end here, and this is maybe the big. Yeah, but that some of our listeners. Listeners have that we've had a lot of conversation here that kind of assumes a betrayed spouse that is at least in some degree moving in the right direction, is open to recovery, looking to restore. But for some people, there's the. Yeah, but what about the spouse? Where they feel like they've struggled, but now they're doing whatever they can to help their spouse heal. And honestly, their betrayed spouse isn't having it, and they just seem stuck. They're in total. Like, this is your thing. I don't want to engage. I don't want to talk about it. What advice Would you give to that struggling spouse who feels like the betrayed spouse is just totally shut down to any of this?

We say this a lot at pure desire that you are only responsible for your healing. One of the greatest things about healing that I think is very common is that the healthier we get, it seems to just kind of spill out of our life and spill out in these other areas. And so we see that a lot, too, with a spouse who is struggling and they get healthy and they learn to communicate better and they're more caring and, you know, all of these really great things. And it's after that happens that a betrayed partner gets into group, because sometimes there's nothing you can do. Sometimes a betrayed partner, and we see this a lot and we hear this a lot, is that. But the partner, they feel like it's their struggling spouse's thing. This is their thing. Once they get healthy, then it'll fix our marriage and we'll be good. And so I think that sometimes it really is, work on yourself, get your own healing. I would also say, and this should have been the first thing that I said, but is pray, pray, pray and pray that God would just soften your partner's heart, that they would recognize that they also need healing. And. And I don't know, I just think that there's a lot that they can even show up to without even having to say anything that would really impact their partner.

I think that it needs to be said, and it sucks, and it's not a great reality, but there are marriages that are just gonna end. Like, the spouse is not going to be willing ever to get into it. And over time, you know, that's the decision that they make, is they want to end the marriage. It doesn't mean that you can't trust the process and you can't trust the Lord and pray. And, you know, because for me, it's just. I wrote down to control what you can control, and all you can control is the effort you're putting into your own healing. But I think even inside of kind of that is that your healing is worth it, regardless that it's not like I'm only getting healthy so that my marriage can be restored. You getting healthy is going to impact everyone that you're around, that you interact with, that you touch, that you minister to, whatever. It's going to impact them in a positive light. And so I think that your life will be better, the relationships you have will be better regardless of if that marriage continues or not. And so control what you can control and Understand that your health is worth it, period. We do, obviously at pure desire. We want and desire and pray for your marriage to be restored, but it doesn't always work out that way. So just something to keep in mind.

You used the word earlier, Trevor, and I would just reemphasize it. And that's the word humility of just staying really humble to my process and what I'm focusing on. And I'll say this, and it might offend some, but I'll say it, that if your spouse is totally shut down to healing, maybe you're not as healthy as you think you are. Because I have found, particularly for wives, for women, they're very intuitive and they pick up on arrogance, anger, a lack of change. And we might be looking at. I'm checking all the boxes for the behaviors, but there are some things that still have them very guarded. And so if we will stay humble to that and really say, you know, maybe there's more work for me to do. Going back to what you just said, Even if it's one of those rare, thankfully rare cases where a spouse stays shut down and the marriage doesn't make it, staying humble and going deeper into my healing will just be good for me in the long run. And so if that's where you're at, I think just taking that opportunity to say, well, what can I keep doing? Because as I pray and pray and pray, I'm going to trust that when I get healthier, it is going to start to thaw the ice that I've created in my spouse's heart. And then if it doesn't, it will still have been the best for me in the long run. So. So stay humble and persevere.

Yeah. So what words of encouragement would we leave people in this situation? It's obviously super difficult and it's like you caused it, but you can't fix it. So it's just such a challenging season. What would we say to a struggling spouse out there who sincerely wants to just help and support the spouse they've betrayed?

Yeah, I think that it is first off, pursuing your own healing because that's always going to kind of set the stage for what's going to come next. Be open to change. Because I think that after discovery or disclosure that life will never be the same. And so don't expect that because it's not ever going to go back to normal, but it could become something so amazing. It. If both people are going to do the work and let's see, what else would I say? Trust the process And I know we've said that, and we say that a lot around here, but it's true. If you keep working on you, then it's going to make a huge difference.

My thought would be, don't do this alone. If your spouse, and that's male or female, if your spouse is maybe shut down to the process, not fully engaged, you're already feeling a little bit of isolation there. So you need other men or other women in your life who are on that journey with you, can encourage, can pray, can offer perspective when you're just, you're ready to quit or you're tired, like, keep at it, it's good, it's going to produce good in you. That is so important in this situation. So find those people, get in that group and don't walk through this alone.

Yeah.

Man, I like what I'm going to say. I don't know, some people may push back on this, but I really do believe that the Lord can use you more effectively. Your life can be more fruitful if you're healthy, if you're not pursuing health, if you're not making healthy decisions, if you're not bettering yourself, growing in your relationship with the Lord, with yourself and with others, you create a lot of hurdles for yourself. And I feel like it gets in the way of. Because I think God is capable of anything, period. But I know that the process can be a lot quicker and be a lot smoother if we're healthy. And so I think that that would just be my encouragement is just own your own journey. How many times have we said that today? Just do your part, work on your own recovery. But I just feel like that makes you a much sharper tool that the Lord can use to restore your marriage, your family, the ministry that you have, all of it. So, man, this situation is just not a fun one to be in. But we know so many people are. Crisis is never, never fun. But we know from even our clinical team here that the people who are honest and who do the process, there's such a large and high percentage of people that their marriages are restored. And so we just, we know this is a really tough spot to be in. And for the struggling spouses, it is not your job to fix or make everything better. It's your job just to continue to get healthy and trust, as we've said, trust the process, trust the Lord, and trust that your healing is going to have impact even more than you thought possible, really. And so we just hope that this episode was encouraging. Heather, obviously you have so much experience as a betrayed spouse experience in this field. So we just appreciate you being here and helping us out.

Yeah, thanks, thanks. Good conversation.

And wherever you're at on your journey, Pure Desire is here to help create a roadmap for your healing. If you or someone you know is impacted by sexual brokenness or betrayal trauma, go to PureDesire.org and let's start the healing journey today. Don't forget to subscribe to the podcast. Each week we put out new content to help you on the road to healing and freedom. And lastly, never stop being healthy.