245 - Sacrifices of Recovery & Healing

You're listening to the Pure Desire podcast, your safe place to find hope, healing and freedom from sexual addiction, betrayal and relationship issues.

Hello. Hello.

I'm your host, Trevor Windsor, and you're listening to episode 245 of the Pure Desire podcast here joining me as always, is my co host, Nick Stumbo.

You gotta fight for the right to.

Part A. I know what that is because we talked pre show about it. Do you?

It's Friday here.

So it is Friday here.

It's a good. That's like we're thinking about a party, I guess, and it's at the time of recording, we're leading up to the super bowl weekend, so that's exciting too.

Yeah. Spoiler alert.

By the time people hear it, they already know the. They already know the results of that. They probably forgot about it by now.

But you and I already know the results that the packers and Seahawks are not in it.

They are not.

No, they didn't win.

Which.

Before we get super sad, let's just move into what we talked about today. We had Mike Maxwell, who is our production now operations director. He's got a lot of hats, but he's operations director. And we've had him on once before. It had been a while, but we had him on to talk about the sacrifices that we make in the healing and recovery process.

Yeah. And it can seem like, why should I have to do a hard thing in order to do a good thing? Right. Why should I have to fight for the right to party? I should just be able to go do it. There you go.

Yeah, I see.

When we think about recovery, it's like, I'm really trying to do a good thing, move in a good direction. And when we start that journey, we don't always realize, well, in order to get there, you're have to do some really hard things to get there and make some sacrifices that probably for every one of us, whether we're this struggler or even on the betrayal side, we didn't really realize that was part of the bargain until we get into it and we're like, oh, if we want to get better, we're going to have to have some hard conversations or give up some things or change some rhythms. And I didn't really know that. And it can bring us to some decision points. And I think this episode can help people just process that. And I think also for some people, there may be a feeling as they listen, like, why focus on that? Like, let's just focus on the good stuff. Right. Let's just focus on where we're going. But the truth is, what we know about the human experience in the brain is that if we don't recognize and grieve our losses, that those things have a way of staying with us and not getting resolved totally. They keep us stuck. And so some of this is a little hard to delve into, especially if you are in the middle of making some of those sacrifices. But I think that's our hope, is that we can help you go there, see the loss, grieve the loss in order to keep moving forward.

Yeah, yeah. And it's such a meaningful. I really do think this is such a meaningful conversation because you don't like the more information you can have going into the recovery and healing process, I think the better. And so knowing there will be sacrifices is going to be really helpful. A few things before we get to the episode with Mike Maxwell. First, subscribe to the podcast. If you're not a subscriber, you should be. Just don't wait any longer. Just do it. It would mean a lot to me. You can find us on all the major platforms and if you give us a review that also helps other people find the podcast, you can follow us on social media, asbook, Twitter and Instagramureduredesirepdmi. And if you like to consume video content, the full episodes are up on YouTube. Just search Pure Desire Ministries. Today's episode is sponsored by Covenant Eyes.

Nick, what is Covenant Eyes, man? We love the team at Covenant Eyes and have been working with them a long, long time. And they're really the og, the old guard when it comes to accountability stuff.

Hold on a second, hold on. Old Guard? Is that what OG stands for?

I hope so. That's what it means to me.

Okay.

I just don't know what that means.

I don't know. Maybe me growing up in suburban Portland, when I learned the OG stands for Original Gangster, I was wrong.

Well, these guys are in Michigan and not Detroit, so I don't think Original Gangster probably applies to them. They may appreciate Old Guard more, so I'm just gonna go with it. But anyway, the point is the same. They've been in this business a long time and what's great about them is they just continue to evolve their product and make it better and better to the point that it's really changing the conversation about accountability right now. Their software involves AI technology that is actually reading what's on your screen and I think it's a game changer. I hope it stands for artificial intelligence, but I'm not going to use any more acronyms on the program. You know, the word accountability for some people has a negative connotation. But why is that? Because in any area of life that's important to us, we have accountability, whether it's to a personal trainer, to a doctor. And why wouldn't we have accountability? In our biblical sexuality, and especially with the state of the Internet where anything goes, anything is available, we need to know that we're not alone. And with Covenant Eyes accountability software, you can begin your journey to freedom and have others that are with you in that battle. And what I love about it too, it's not just something we have for a season. I've had accountability software coming up on two decades. And it's just a part of the new normal of how I make my decisions and choices available to people that care about me so that I continue to make wise ones even though I'm many years into recovery. So one of the great things about Covenant Eyes, you can try it for free for 30 days, no strings attached, to just go to CovenantEyes.com and enter the promo code PureDesire. That's all one word, PureDesire at checkout@CovenantEyes.com and you can start your free 30 day trial of having biblical accountability in your life today.

And as if 30 free days of Covenant Eyes isn't enough, they also want to offer you their free 14 day video series. And it is called Restored Vows. And this is Brandon Antonia Clark sharing their story, just their story of how pornography impacted their marriage and how they found hope and healing and are now living in really truly restored vows. So again, this is a free 14 day series and the way that it works out is when you subscribe to this, they send you a new video every single day for two weeks straight. And you can view that and just be encouraged from the Clark's story. The way to get this is to text the word vows to 66866. That's vows v o w s to 66866. All right, here is our conversation with Mike Maxwell on the sacrifices of the recovery and healing journey. Mike Maxwell, welcome back to the podcast, man.

Thank you. I'm glad to be here. I love the new digs.

Yeah, yeah, it's definitely. We are super thankful for Luke and all of his work on this. It's been amazing.

He's a good man.

We love you, Luke. I know.

We love you, Luke.

Thank you so much. Okay, so it has been a while since we've had you on the podcast and I want you to know from Nick and I both. It wasn't because a bad job. It wasn't something where we thought, you know, Mike isn't one of those people. We'll have it back again. But you are kind of a hermit in your office. You're always crunching numbers and doing stuff. But you do have a lot of experience, and I think in this area, you add some expertise and some understanding that we wanted to tap into. So recently, we had a listener send in a suggestion, which, if you're a listener, I'm telling you, I see those emails every single week, and I file them and I come back to them often when we're coming up with new products, podcast topics, and episodes. So please keep sending those in. But we got the suggestion for the topic of sacrifices of recovery and healing. I thought that was interesting. And really, if you think about it, the reality is when we enter into that recovery and healing process, there are sacrifices that are made. And, you know, whether it's old habits, jobs, even relationships, which we'll get into all of those. There are sacrifices that we make, and we wanted to talk through not only what sacrifices we make, but also how to process through them in a healthy way. So let's just start with this, Mike. What are some of the things that we might lose when we begin that healing or recovery journey?

You know, as I think about the question, the first thing that I think I had to face was that loss of that sense of control that my addiction brought me. Secondly would be recognizing the lies that were underneath that and letting go of those that were so ingrained. You know, in pd, we talk about early in the process, facing reality at all costs. And I think that is probably one of the most difficult things that a guy has to do, because when his illusion of control clashes with reality, oftentimes, Oftentimes not of his choosing, it's very painful. So that was the first thing I thought of.

Yeah. I think what comes to mind for me is how in that way that we can control our life. That addiction becomes a way of controlling situations, emotions, whatever. It's also become a way that we've developed a lot of privacy and what we might even call personal space. And we just think that's normal. And if you're going to enter into a recovery, you know, it's kind of like when you go to the hospital and you admit you're sick and they put you in a hospital gown. It's like, I'm sorry, but there's not a ton of privacy because we need to help you get better. And if you're gonna, like, keep all your clothes on. We can't help you, you know, and we get that at the hospital. But in the recovery process, there's kind of an. On an emotional level, on a mental level, that same process of a lot of things I've maybe carefully guarded or kept hidden about myself because I. Either I didn't want to face them, or I feared how others might react to them, or it just felt too messy. Like, all those doors get open, all those curtains have to come down, and things need to be seen. And that can feel almost like an invasion of our privacy, because we're maybe so used to keeping some of that to ourself. So there is a process there of letting go of some of that, of trusting the process. And I think I hear from a lot of guys, as they start to develop a sense of healthy boundaries and what they need to do to help their spouse feel safe, they'll say they feel like they're giving up their freedom. Now, they don't realize they have a very false version of freedom. But it's what we've come to define as freedom, whether it's our hobbies or how we spend our time. And that's the other thing I thought of, too. There is a sacrifice of time because recovery is a process, and it takes engagement and work, and that takes time. And, I mean, I know that was one of my objections up front. It was like, well, I don't have time for group. Why do I have to do this? And, you know, Ted Roberts told me, he's like, well, if you don't have time for group, you don't have time for healing. And so, you know, good luck. And that was just something I had to face if I had to give up some of that control again, even just to take the time to engage in recovery.

Yeah, I think a lot of the stuff that we talk about that we end up sacrificing has a lot to do with identity. We find our identity in those things. Our habits, our time, our control, you know, whatever it may be, our privacy, maybe. And so I think that we end up sacrificing what we feel like is our identity, who we really are at our core, when that's not necessarily true.

Or the facade that we've created.

100%. 100%. I think another thing, too, is I think about how a betrayed spouse might also experience the sacrifices is I'm sacrificing the marriage that I thought I had, or the relationship or the picture of my family that I thought I had. That I no longer have or I never had it in the first place, you know, and so it feels like I'm somehow being duped. And so I think a lot of that is, you know, all this, because I hear this a lot from betrayed spouses, that they have to go back and replay all of the things that happened in their relationship up to that point and almost reinterpret. And so the story you've been telling people of how you met, how great your marriage has been, how, you know, how you parent together and you love the ministry that you do together and all that, now there's a new interpretation of all that. And so it's almost like you lose the life you had and have to rewrite it. And so I think that's another huge sacrifice.

Yeah, you lose that trust and respect. I know for me, there was that. That loss of trust with my spouse, but then there's also the loss of trust as it came out in respect with the. I was volunteering at church, and of course everybody found out. And it's. It's quite humiliating. Humiliating, you know, and that's part of that painful process. You know, initially, I tried so hard to just keep it within a certain circle of my own family. And once it got out, it makes it hard to even go to church because people are looking at you like, there's the porn guy, you know.

Yeah, yeah, that's such a good point. That we have to give up, you know, that idea again, of control, even of controlling our reputation, controlling what people think. And that's part of why recovery often takes someone getting to that. You know, we talk about hitting rock bottom, and I truly don't. You have to wait until your life is at rock bottom, but you have to get desperate enough that you give up that control of. I'm going to control the narrative of my life, to say whatever it takes to pursue healing, I'm going to go for it. Even if that means others maybe hear something about me, look at me differently. Because if I keep trying to control that, I'm really not going to engage fully in the recovery process.

I think that's why, at least in my own case, you hold on to that fortress around yourself, that facade, as tightly as you can, and you try and control everybody's perceptions of you. You isolate so that people don't get to know you too well. And then when that comes down, when that starts to come down, a lot of times when we. Why we do the disclose stagger, disclosure is because we want to still try and maintain that control of I need to manufacture a facade of I'm not as bad as I really am. Yeah.

Yeah. Well, it might seem like an odd question when we're talking about, you know, recovery and freedom and all the good of healing, but there is a sense in which we have to grieve the loss, even of our old, unwanted behavior. So talk about that a little bit, Mike. How do we best process that kind of grieving in a healthy way?

I think part of this is facing reality at all costs, recognizing the damage that I've caused, the choices that I've made. And I think this is where we need some help, because this is what we've tried to avoid. We don't want to feel the pain of the consequences of the choices we've made. And so we try to pretend they don't exist, cover them up, hide them, whatever it is. And so I think initially for me, I was getting involved in men's groups. That meant, like, the men's group at church. I got involved in a group right away, and I got a counselor. And it was the counselor that really helped me, because when you're sitting there for an hour and he's saying, okay, I want you to do this exercise where you're talking to your stepdaughter, that's painful. But what it did is it forced me to face the grief that I've lost her because of the decisions I made. And then he was there to help me process that. The other thing I think of in this process, you know, Nick, the example you use at the PDCs of the Coke bottle, a lot of guys go, okay, I just want to barf it all up and get it done. They want this immediate gratification. And that example you, where you drop the Coke bottle and you just slowly open it. This is a process. And I think that's part of what guys have to realize is you don't just face this and it's done. It is a process of healing, and it starts and happens over time.

I'm just gonna say this right now. And I still cannot believe it happened. I don't know if you remember this, Nick, but there was one event where he was doing that illustration, and he normally drops the Coke bottle, and it falls and rolls away. I'm not playing. I mean this. Whereas once that he dropped the Coke bottle, it literally bounced right back up to his hand, and he caught it in the middle of the session. And it's still one of the most. It's probably the most amazing thing that.

Pure desire has, like, a magic Choice. Okay.

It was.

So what comes to mind for me, and this is obviously because I have, you know, I've got a one and a half year old at home that he uses his puppy. So it's his little stuffed animal and his binky, often to soothe himself. And, you know, we talk about that a lot, that these are medicating, you know, pain and wounds that we have in life. And so when my son Brooks, wants to feel safe and secure and soothed, he wants his. And he goes, mmm, mmm, is what he says for binky and puppy. Like, he went, he wants puppy. Yeah. And I remember when our oldest, Brady, when we took binky and, well, he still has his lambie, which don't judge me. He's five, but he can still have it. That's fine. But when we took his binky away, I remember how sad he was. He didn't have that thing to soothe anymore. And it's the same thing with our unwanted behaviors, that these are things we used to soothe ourselves and to medicate from the pain or the uncertainty or the lack of security or safety that we have in life. And that's why we grieve when they're no longer there. And I know it feels weird and almost feels like we should feel more shame because of it, but in reality, they played a very significant role in our life. They were unhealthy and caused a lot of damage, but they also played a very key role in helping us survive.

Right.

And that can be true even for the betrayed spouse, who may not be relying on unwanted behavior. But we find that betrayed spouses can be stuck in some anger or superiority or, you know, the reasons of, like, well, the reason our marriage isn't working is because of your problems and your pornography. And if their spouse starts to pursue healing, they may have to let go of some old friends that they've relied on, too, of anger, bitterness, you know, just getting to hold this over them. So it is, I think, for all of us, letting go of something we've relied on like an old friend, that even if it was messy or painful or parts of it that we really hated, there was a part of it that worked. And, you know, that's something I try to address with guys in group because I will hear them say, like, when they're telling their story, like, oh, and every time I did it, I hated it, and I hate it. And it seems like the noble or the right thing to say, like, I really hated what I was doing. And there's definitely truth to that, that there is A part of us that, especially in the purge cycle, in the guilt and shame, hates what we feel, what it does to us, that we're trapped in it. But I try to say we also have to look at the other side. There's a part of us that really liked it.

Yeah.

And that's okay. There's a part of us that liked either what we saw or the way it made us feel or the rush of the chemicals. And we need to acknowledge that in order to let go of it and be able to grieve that we're not going to go there anymore. And I think we get this, like, with food, a lot more that we recognize. I love cake. It tastes good. It's the texture, the flavor. But I'm recognizing it's not healthy for me. And if I want to have a certain kind of lifestyle, I will have to choose to go without cake or sugar, whatever a person has identified as their issue. So we can do that with food. I think we have a harder time with sex and pornography because of the moral side of it, and there's truth to that. But at the same time, that's what I'm just trying to say is there is a part of our brain and body that is wired for pleasure and wired for sexual pleasure. And so you. If. If in your addiction there were parts of it you really liked, it's okay to acknowledge that, because in telling the truth about that, then you can face it and really take, I think, some better steps to let it go.

Absolutely.

You bring up a good point. When we went through the PSAP and they talked about the volcano that blows out on the side and how that addiction or these addictive behaviors, whether it's overeating, binge tv, watching, whatever, they serve a purpose for helping us handle overwhelming emotion, fear, pain, whatever that might be. And so part of this process is recognizing that, like you just said, that behavior is not healthy. And I need to go through a process of finding a better way to manage these emotions.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So as we start establishing health and maybe even some sobriety, whether that's, you know, sobriety on the addiction side or maybe boundaries on the betrayal side, we begin implementing guardrails, things that we have in place to protect us. And, you know, this cuts into things that we like. And I'll. I'll just say this is one of the places that I still have the hardest time in my recovery is it cuts into movies. You know, do we go to the gym? Do we not? You know, do we. Do we not? Do we drink you know, the types of content we listen to or consume. So how do we process through the potential loss of things that we really enjoy?

Yeah, I think that is requires some wisdom. And for us as guys, I know, at least in my own case, I really need the perspective other, other of other men around me to help me make wise choices.

So group members, yes.

You know, some of those things, guys think in a very black and white or linear fashion and say they go, they may think, I have to go to the gym, I can't just not go. But in a group you can talk that through and go, well, maybe there's some alternatives. And you may not have to give up the gym or your cell phone forever, but maybe there's some alternatives we can put in place where you can still realize the benefits of getting exercise or contacting your wife when you need to that allow you to get healthy or stronger in your health to the point that then you can go back to the gym. Because I know for me the gym was a trigger initially as well. And of course all the same things are at the gym as they always were. It' just I process them differently because of where I'm at now. So those are, that's what I think of is you have to start having people around you to help you get creative in how you meet those needs. For my counselor, she said, I want you to expand the things that you have in your life that give you pleasure. Because we are, we've got very set things that we do to manage our life. And in many ways addicts are, they seem out of control, but they're very rigid in some respects. And so he encouraged me to go, what other things can you do to add pleasure? For me, one of the things that we found as I was going through counseling is he goes, you use books, self help books in particular, to escape. Because it becomes a form of manager where I have to get control. If I just get this last piece, I'll have it all together. And he actually forbid me from reading any books for a period during counseling.

That sounds terrible. If you're a book reader, that sounds like a nightmare.

It was, it was really hard. But then he said, well, you can read the ones I give you.

You.

So yeah, but now I can, I.

Can read all those things.

And the self help books don't have the same pull that they used to because it's not feeding my wound on a crutch anymore. Yeah, it's not my, it's not addressing my wound. So I would say, you know, we don't have to grieve these things forever necessarily. I know for me, we do avoid R rated movies at our house just because it's a, it's a trigger for my wife as well. So if we're watching something and any kind of sexual content comes on, we're like, okay, we're done. Yeah, we just don't watch that. And it's getting harder.

Yeah, yeah. Pure desire has been saying this for a long time that we're not here to stop a behavior. We're here to change the way you do life. And changing the way you do life is about learning new rhythms, new ways of doing things. And just what you were saying, Mike, of saying, well, if these were things that contributed to my unhealth and I'm letting go of them, what are other ways I might find the same kind of enjoyment or new pursuits, new opportunities? And I think it's helpful to think of it in terms of a word you just used and that's that you're in a season, that you're in a season of recovery. And it's best to not try to define how long that season will be. Because I find people fall into two mistakes of either that desperation of I can never do this again and I can't believe it. And then that can almost become a bitterness maybe towards a spouse or their group if they feel like those are the ones that are recommending, hey, you shouldn't be going to the gym. Like, I never go to the gym. And like, well, no, we're not saying never. We're saying in this season. But it can also be a danger if someone tries to put well for two months. And then after two months I'll. Because then we're again, we're trying to manage and control our own recovery. And who knows if in two months we'll be ready for that again or not. That's a decision that has to be made in wisdom with a spouse, with group members, with mentors, like, hey, where am I at? What are those things that maybe do come back into my life? And what are those things that I'm just going to decide won't ever be healthy for me? So whatever extreme maybe you are prone towards, I think it helps just take that deep breath and say, I'm in a season. I don't know how long the season lasts, but I know the best way that I can be present in this season is just to be all in, to engage in it and see where I'm at in another three months or six months or a year. And some of those things just become clearer the healthier you get. So I think just making that decision to be in your season is really, really helpful.

I feel like guardrails oftentimes. I know for me, there are seasons in my recovery journey where I use them almost as consequences or punishments, and they're not necessarily that. I mean, I think there has to be a reframing of this is actually something that's helping me be a healthier version of myself and have a better relationship with my friends, with my spouse, with my kids. And I know that's really difficult, but that, you know, I just want to hit. The same thing you were talking about at the outset of this question, Mike, was just the importance of having other people in your life who are on the same journey. You know, everyone knows I'm a movie and a TV guy, and Justin, our producer, and I, we were texting about this a few weeks ago just how many shows and movies out there that we really want to see that we know have garbage in it that we shouldn't see? And it's just like, this sucks. This is so stupid. I can't, like, why can't I watch this? Or why can't I watch that every. You know, and then statements like, everyone else seems to be able to be healthy and watch that.

Which.

That's never true.

When you say that out loud. That is true.

Never true.

No. You just use that to, like, worm your way into being able to watch it. But, you know, it's just. It's a really difficult tension to maintain. I'm like, in year six or seven, I can't remember, of recovery. Don't judge me. But I still struggle with that today. I was telling my group this week, I still struggle with. There are shows on right now that I want to watch. They are so interesting to me, and I love the actors, and the story looks so compelling, and I just want to escape in it, but I know it's not going to be beneficial for me in the long run. And there's some shame that comes in there, but again, that's what's so important about having those outside voices who are part of making that decision with you.

Nick, you said something that I thought was so important. You said being present. And one of the things that my counselor said that was so impactful is he said, your fantasy life is a way of escaping the present. And he said, the only place you can be with God is right now, in this present moment. So when you're either worrying about the past angry or bitter, over something in the past or fantasizing about the future. And we do that in many ways. It can be pornography or it can be just like, someday when. When I get that big boat, I'm going to be happy. And so I'm just going to work seven days a week till I get it. It's a way of escaping right now, because we're not happy with where we're at right now. And I think just recognizing that, and that really is so key to this whole process, is learning how to be present and not escaping through these behaviors, whatever they be, you know, change, altering our mood.

And sometimes it is looking at what am I getting or what am I gaining? And I know we're going to get more into that in just a little bit. But for me, it was looking at something like fantasy sports and how much time I was spending online with fantasy sports and really having some clarity through conversations with my wife and group that it's like I can either choose fantasy sports or choose my marriage. And I know for every person listening, it's like, well, that's not my dilemma. I get it. But for me, that was one of those big choices. Like, when and when you put it that way, it's like, it's obvious I want to choose my marriage, and I would rather have a healthy marriage than be winning my fantasy sports league, which at the time was really, really important to me. And so it wasn't as much about looking at the fantasy sports as it was about looking at my marriage and saying, this is worth it. Looking at our relationships, looking at our kids, looking at those things that we truly would say. This is what matters most to me in life. And then making decisions that align with what I have said are my priorities. So leading into that, Mike, we're talking now about more the relational side of it. And there is a reality that sometimes in recovery, we realize that there are relationships that will have to go in terms of us maintaining our health. So what would you say about how does someone determine when a relationship might need to be sacrificed as part of recovery? And if that happens, how do we handle the loss of those relationships?

I'm super interested in what you guys have to say on this. So I'll say that there are times when relationships need to be cut for how long or if that's forever? I think that depends on the situation. But it's very difficult to get healthy when you have someone who's influencing you in a negative way. And I think when you're single, this is easier. Well, I think there's less consequences because you're not married to somebody. When you're married to someone. I think one of the things about PD that I think is so amazing is that they do husband wife counseling so that they can grow together. Because when one person's getting healthy, if you've been in a dysfunctional relationship for 20 years, addict, codependent, however that plays out, and one starts to get healthy and the other refuses to participate, the other person is still unhealthy. And so you have this dynamic where one is trying to change behavior and the others staying in the process of the old behavior, and they're either going to pull you down or.

It'S likely.

That the marriage will not survive in my mind. And so it becomes difficult. And I think that's why it's so crucial, particularly if you're married, that a counselor is involved. But I have had relationships. There was one in particular that a guy that I hung out quite a bit during my single years as a healing sex addict. And there did come a point where I just had to have a discussion with him, say, I can't hang out with you anymore. You are too toxic. I still love that guy. We do still communicate now and then, but I just had to let that relationship go.

You know. Another thing with that Mike, too, is I think we get into this, like, all or nothing thinking, black or white thinking, where when this question comes up, it's like, well, either I'm in the relationship forever or I cut it forever. And that's not necessarily the case. I think we also can manage the levels of, like, the depth maybe of different relationships. You know, there are people who in recovery maybe don't understand. You know, maybe you have a friend who's like, trauma, trauma doesn't exist. Stop talking about your wounds and your trauma. It's like, okay, you're no longer safe for me to share my stuff with as I'm going through the process. And so I think that you can maybe dial back those relationships or find creative ways that you're not maybe one on one with that person. You're in safer group settings. So I think it's just going to depend from relationship to relationship. But I think there are times, absolutely, where it's like, you know what? I can't be with this person anymore. I cannot spend time like that relationship, which is super sad. That's not a great experience. But not every relationship's that way. We can learn how to manage who's safe, who's not, who's healthy, who's not for Me in the current season, I'm in.

And the reality is some of those relationships, you don't have to have that discussion. They'll just naturally fade.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think that's a really good point about finding who are the safe people and leaning into those relationships. You know, as we think about this question, sometimes the relationships we lose will be the other person's choice. I mean, so many people in recovery have lost a spouse or a marriage over this, but that tends to be more about their past choices. And it's. The damage is already done versus currently. I think a way to consider our current relationships is we begin to recognize what we need for health. And then we create boundaries around that. And then in terms of friends or family members, we may communicate to them, here's what I'm able to do or willing to. And here are things I'm not. And if someone truly loves us and is committed to us, they can be accepting of those boundaries and learn a new rhythm to our relationship with them. But if others like, well, if you're not going to do this with me, I'm out of here. And they leave, I think that can change then the kind of grieving, because we realize I was open with them. I was honest about what I was able to do. I shared with them things that were not healthy for me. And if they weren't able to accept that, it almost changes the dynamic a little to say that was more about them than about me.

Totally.

Because I'm feeling confident in my recovery. I know I'm taking the right steps. And if they weren't able to make room for it, it's probably better that they weren't in my life because they would have continued to challenge the boundaries I was saying I needed. And so I think if you approach it from kind of that boundaries perspective, then if a relationship does end or significantly change, we can feel. This sounds funny, but we can feel better about it because it's for the right reasons. It's not just because we. We quit answering their calls because we didn't want to talk to them. We made some of the right choice.

I think it's important to say that because as you're saying that it's okay that this is really sad, like losing relationships that maybe you've had for decades that were really important. And again, those relationships, just like our unwanted behaviors, played a really significant role in our life. And it's okay to feel sad. It doesn't have to be like, oh, now I have to be excited that I lost my best friend of 20 years because I wanted to get healthy. No, it's okay to grieve that it's okay to sit in that space. But I think in this question, we're just trying to encourage people that even though you might be in that space of sadness, that doesn't mean that we, like, flex on our boundaries and take some steps back. We do need to take those right steps if that means that we need to cut a relationship.

You just reminded me there was a guy, that our total relationship was built around chasing girls, going out to the bars and. And picking up girls. And I remember when I faced my addiction and my marriage was falling apart, that he still wanted to go out. And I said, I. I mean, I told him, I said, look, I'm a sex addict. I can't do this anymore. This is. This is part of my addictive behavior. And he said, oh, well, just, just. I'm dating this girl. Why don't you just come have a drink with us? So I came down there and he had this other girl there who was going through a divorce. And I just went, I. That was a relationship where I went, I can't maintain this relationship anymore because I love the guy. We had. We had some great conversations, but the core of our relationship was built around unhealthy behavior. So I haven't seen him in years. Still love the guy, but.

So let's move to another domain of relationships, right? When we get into recovery, when we get into healing, we dive into our family of origin. And I just feel like whenever you say that, it needs to be like a dum dum dum, you know, like that family of origin. When we dive into that and look at the patterns and the culture that we were raised in, this often changes our relationship with our family. It can be positive, can be negative. But how do we handle some of that pushback? Because. And I remember Diane Roberts, when she was on an episode a long time ago, she said she was talking about a mobile that's hanging above a baby's crib, right? Mobile. That's how you say it's not mobile, Right? I can never tell. Anyways, I know what you mean. Mobile. So when one of, you know, in each of those, Each of the things hanging from it are a member of your family, and when one gets healthy, they get off of the mobile, and now it becomes off centered and imbalanced. And everyone who's still on the mobile is like, no, no, come back. Like, we want you to. Like, we need to maintain equilibrium here. Like, come over Here. And so how do we handle those kind of pushbacks from our family? And I think even a bigger and additional question is, is it ever okay to cut relationship with our parents, with our siblings, aunts and uncles, family members first?

That is an amazingly great analogy.

I love it.

So the short answer to that question from my perspective would be a cautious.

Yes to cutting relationships.

To cutting relationships. And I go back to it may be for a season, it may be for longer. It depends on the relationship and the level of abuse. You know, if there's, if there's abuse, then definitely you're going to need to cut that relationship until you get into a healthy place and have healthy boundaries. It's really difficult to set boundaries initially because they just don't feel right to you. And so I think having a counselor to help walk through that, especially in abuse situations, is super, super important. With other family members, it may be just a season of time. And I honestly, with family members, even when there's a place of cutting, I think we all always need to be prayerful and hopeful for reconciliation and be open to forgiveness. And that's really challenging because those people on the mobile are still amazingly dysfunctional and swinging wildly around. And we're going. I can't get back on into the system as it currently sits.

I think it comes back to that word from the beginning of control, that am I going to try to control the family relationships and dynamics and keep them all the same as they ever were, or am I willing to be real about where I am, what I'm facing, and in a sense, let the chips fall where they may? And so again, like bringing up boundaries with family members, if you communicate to parents, well, we're not going to be coming to this event because usually there's lots of alcohol or there's inappropriate things that are watched or done. And if you communicate that to a parent and they say, well, why not? You say, well, the truth is I'm walking through some recovery from pornography and that's not a healthy environment for me. And maybe even present, could we do something different or could we go to a different place? They may be open to that or, you know, they may not understand so well, we're going to do it anyway and say, well, great, that's your choice. We just won't be there for that. Or maybe what you were saying, Trevor, about safe people that we've determined there are certain people that aren't safe and I'm not going to go there with them. And when they try to bring up the topic we say something like, well, I appreciate you asking, but I don't really feel comfortable discussing that with you.

You.

You know, and if they say, well, why not? Like, well, in the past when we've had these conversations, you've reacted in these ways that have really made me feel criticized or condemned, and I'm just not willing to go there anymore. And if they get angry about that, it's like, well, yeah, that's kind of why I've created that boundary. But it may, you know, in some cases, I think we do want to have the hopeful perspective of maybe we have some family members or relationships that are healthier than we realize. And if we begin to express these things, they may see something go, you know, I never realized that, and I'm glad that you shared something, and I would like to work on that. I would like to be part of growing with you. And then that's encouraging because maybe, back to that illustration, maybe our health is part of the system, finding some health too. But we'll never know if we just, you know, disengage and don't talk to people. You know, if we do it kind of passively versus being honest, just about, here's where I'm at, here's what we're willing to do and will you grow with us? Or is that just going to be something where we're not going to engage anymore?

Yeah, I think, you know, without relationships that maybe have experienced abuse, like, I'll be honest, there have been seasons of dysfunction in my family as well, but I still desire to maintain that relationship. And my counselor was telling me about this, that there's like a cloud of legacy is what he described. And there's always this innate desire we have to make our parents proud and for them to see value in who we are and what we do and the things that we accomplish. And I think that it's not bad to want relationship with the people that maybe raised you in a really dysfunctional culture. Like, that's not bad. But so much in recovery is learning to manage life, not just black or white, either it's in or it's out. It's learning to create healthy boundaries and practices that help me manage life. And I think it's the same thing with these kind of relationships. We need to learn what that balance is, whether it's with boundaries, you know, starting to identify where maybe I have some codependency with my family. Maybe I start to learn to find my voice and start sharing, you know, how I actually feel about certain things. Those are things that we can do in order to learn to manage. And what's great and what also sucks is that managing is like, that's the long haul is just managing. If nothing changes in those relationships, I'm just going to have to learn and maintain management of these relationships for the rest of my life, for the rest of their lives, whatever comes first. But it's not fun. But it also. It's good to lock in. This is not just one day going to get better. Potentially. I need to maintain. I'm going to manage this relationship.

I think the most difficult thing in this area is if in the cases of generational addiction. So you're engaging with people that are extremely unhealthy, very black and white thinkers, and engage in heavy gaslighting, blaming you for everything. And that's where it might be a situation where, you know, because when you speak about managing, there's. I might be able to engage 60% or man, I might only be able to engage 10% of the time on holidays or whatever, just because there's so much dysfunction in the family. The hope would be that in a lot of these relationships where it's say, parental and the child is saying, hey, this is how I experienced you growing up and how it affected me. That's hard for a parent to hear. And some of that, you know, if they're getting healthy, some of that may be reasonable. But if they're not getting healthy, they might just be blowing this up to make it more dramatic than it is. And it's very hard for a parent to process that. And so there might initially be a severance of the relationship for a period of time as people process and the emotions kind of of leak out of that. I know that was the case with my dad and I, you know, my wound was very raw and he wanted to try and reconcile. And I was like, there is no way in hell I'm going to reconcile with you. I hate you. I'm angry at you. But we have, over time, as I've grown and he's grown reconciled and he's just an amazing man.

Yeah, that's so cool. If we can allow our healing to be an invitation to others to also be growing and healing and. And I think that's the hope. So to switch gears a little bit here, Mike, we're talking a lot about relationships. Let's talk about something maybe more practical, intangible of our jobs and our careers and our income. For some people, their job may be part of their past unhealth, whether the environment, the people they're around the tasks that they were required to do. Would we ever suggest someone leaving a job for the sake of recovery and healing? And if we do, how should we handle that huge transition?

I would say absolutely yes. If the job is causing problems, if there's a woman that you're having an affair with at work or something along those lines. I think for a single person this is a much easier decision to navigate because you might quit your job on Friday and have a new one on Monday if you're 30 years into your career as a pastor, for instance, and, and it's going to be a job or career change and it affects your whole family, your children, that's a whole nother ball of wax. And I think that's where in that kind of a scenario, I would suggest people have counselor support as they navigate that, because that could be, I mean, for a man to lose a 30 year career or being a pastor and losing that is going to be very difficult. And the family need to navigate that carefully so that it doesn't become a wedge between the husband and wife.

I've heard an example recently from someone who's in group, who. Not my group member, but he was mentioning that he had to leave his job or he was leaving his job because he kept getting asked to do things that were dishonest. And so it's not just like, you know, I have people who are watching porn at work or, you know, the, the table talk at the office is just awful, or there are people who are just terrible for my recovery. It's also just at a character level, the type of people you spend time with or the type of things you're asked to do at your job. And so just kind of widen that lens a little bit. But man, I've thought about this a lot, that God cares more about me and my health than he does about my career and my effectiveness. And I think it's one of those things where we so often tie our career and effectiveness to who we are, to our identity and our value and our worth. And I mean, you can argue theologically about this, I'm sure round in circles, but I don't think God cares all that much about what we do. It's about who we are and how we do it. Because I could do four or five jobs probably pretty well, but this job seems to be where God wants me right now. And I'm gonna do the best that I can. Thank you. Do the best that I can. This was not. I'm not fishing here, stop it. But I Just think that that's something we need to hold onto, that our identity is not in what we do. Our identity is in the Lord, that He's saved us and that he's calling us to grow and become more healthy and become more sanctified. And that's an okay thing to press into. And there are going to be sacrifices. Absolutely. Financially, there may be community, there may be church. There may be a lot of things.

One of the most memorable cases of this happening was there was a youth pastor that was in my group, and he confessed to his elder board that he was struggling with pornography. He was 50. They fired him, and he was weeping. Loss of this career. And I just remember in my heart thinking, I would rather follow a man who's willing to lose it all to get right with Jesus than the most charismatic speaker who's hiding behind the pulpit.

Sure.

And I know God has to see it that way, too.

Yeah, yeah. You know, I think that's the answer to, you know, should we change jobs? We need to be open to it. You know, I've heard a lot of people in recovery say to their spouse, I'll do whatever it takes to make it up or make it better. And maybe changing their career or job is part of it, and they need to be open to that. Now, I would say we want to make sure it's not just an emotional reaction in the moment, whether by the spouse or the addict. You know, the spouse is like, well, your problem was at work. You go quit your job and. Or the addict feeling like, man, my work's a problem. I'm going to quit tomorrow. And now suddenly they've added a financial crisis to a relationship crisis.

You don't need more crisis in this.

And let's be honest, recovery can have a cost financially, too. I mean, if you lose your job or don't have a job, getting counseling is going to be a lot harder to figure out. So there are, I think, times and occasions where a career change, a job change is needed. But I think you want to do that thoughtfully and with good input from a counselor or trusted advisor that agrees with you. But in a lot of other circumstances, I think it's appropriate to speak up and look to make a change of other sorts first. Where if it was some sort of affair or emotional engagement with a person at work, can I switch departments? Can I move to another location? Can I, you know, within the company, in the same role, Can I get into a different environment? Can I. If I travel for work, can I stop traveling? Can I change? Maybe Places I have to deliver that have been part of the issue. Like, really, you want to look at what has been the issue with my work and are there ways I could change it? And that might. You know, sometimes I've. I've heard of guys that they've quit a job when really they're quitting because they didn't have the courage to go ask their boss for a change because it would have acknowledged. They would have had to acknowledge there's a problem. I have a problem in my life. That's why I'm asking for this. And I. I say, man, I. I'd rather you had the courage to go say, here's what I'm facing, and would you help me with this change? And if. If they say no and you lose your job anyway, well, at least then, you know, versus just walking in and quitting because you don't want to bring up, you know, this private issue, which, again, goes back to the beginning of our episode here. That can be a control issue that we're so desperate, even in recovery, to try to control our reputation that we might not be honest with a boss or supervisor who actually could help us, and instead, we just walk away. So that'd be my answer. Like, I think we need to be open to it. But there are oftentimes many other things that can be done to improve the situation without having to add the financial crisis of a lost job on top of our addiction crisis.

Absolutely.

So another really sad reality of recovery and healing is there is that potential sacrifice of a marriage where you lose a marriage in divorce. And this is a really. This is a very dynamic question. It's not an easy answer to this, but how would we encourage people to process through the loss of a marriage while still maintaining health and recovery?

Well, I can speak from experience here, and so I can kind of tell you what I did. The first and foremost thing was that I think coming to that place of realizing I don't have control, that reality is God. I've tried to do this my way, and it's not working. So first and foremost, I would say dig into God. However that looks for you, you got to find a way to dig into God. Secondly, support groups. I did divorce care. I did men's group at church. I did a purity group. I got involved. So what's really happening there is. I'm making connection with other people because everything was about isolation and hiding before. So getting around people, connecting and finding people that understand what you're going through. I think, you know, divorce care wasn't so life changing. Other than I was in a room with other people that could relate to what I was going through, which is powerful. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The other thing is a counselor, if you can afford one. I think that's huge because we are navigating feeling. I mean, great feelings of betrayal and grief and hurt, and we just don't know how. It's despairing, honestly, you just feel absolutely out of control. And having a counselor that can help you navigate those things and put perspective on things, you know, because when you're at church, you know you're going to get the spiritual bypass. All things work together for good. Just embrace it, brother. Whatever the case may be, that's not helpful. And so I would say a counselor. And lastly, I think one of the biggest things that I still engage in is walking along other alongside other people who are going through it. So when I got into the men's group at my church, guys would end up going through divorce. And I began to realize they were facing the same challenge I was, was, do I go to the bar or do I go to the Bible?

Right?

And one of the worst things you can do is get into another relationship too quickly to try and make yourself feel better because it's just a trap of the devil. So I would come alongside him and go, hey, why don't you and I go to the pub, have a beer and let's talk about how you're feeling.

Let's bring our Bible to the bar.

And so I still. I think that's one of the reasons I still love leading group. And I'm so grateful to be a part of what we do here is I get to see and watch these guys walk through the same process that I did. Even in group on Monday night, one of the guys was bemoaning. You know, we've been in group for three months, and he's bemoaning how slowly things are going and I'm going. You don't realize, from my perspective, you are completely in a different spot than you were three months ago. But from them, from their perspective, they feel like this sucks. It's still terrible. You know, I'm not getting the payout I want. And so I just love the process. And for me to just go, just stick it out, hang in there, keep doing it just one day at a time. And I remember for me, that was my prayer, is, God, I made it. Thank you for getting me through one day, get me through one more. And that's how you have to do it at first. And so Just walking along with guys was so healing for me, knowing that I could help encourage them.

Yeah, yeah. You know, I think of this sacrifice from the perspective of the betrayed spouse. And I've heard a number of stories, and they're just heartbreaking where a spouse puts up a boundary that says, I'm not willing to live with, you know, fill in the blank, whether it's pornography or the affairs or you flirting with other people or, or, you know, if you're not cutting off contact, I'm not willing to live with that. And the addicted spouse has walked away. They've chosen the other person or they've chosen their addiction. And I think in that situation, for the betrayed spouse, I mean, the grieving is obvious, the loss is obvious. But I think at a deeper emotional level, what I've heard them talk about is how they have to reconcile with the feeling of they chose their addiction over me and what's wrong with me or why am I not worried having fought for or chosen? And that's really, I think, a core issue that, as you said, Mike, you know, going to God, going to a counselor, going to friends, to really kind of work through that value and identity piece. Because I think that's the lie. The enemy wants to speak to that betrayed spouse to say, yeah, you're not worth it. And because you're not worth it, then that enables me to go make a lot of other poor choices because, like, well, now I feel worthless. I wasn't chosen by that person. So it can lead to destructive choices in the betrayed spouse's life. And I just, I want to help that betrayed spouse recognize that. To see that temptation and to hear that that's. That does not define your devalue or worth, that spouse's or that addict's choices does not say anything about your worth or value. And the fact that they couldn't see that you were worth choosing or worth fighting for doesn't change who you are. And so you need people in your life that will help speak that into you until you really are confident of, you know, that was a them issue, not a me issue. And I am worth so much before God and others that then can lead you to what does your future look like. So there's a grieving that has to happen, whether you're the addict or the spouse. If the marriage disintegrates, there's always things we can learn. But I think the goal, the long term goal for either side of it is say, I need to become a healthier person. Because if it's not for them anymore, for that spouse. There's a lot of other people in my life that would really benefit by getting a healthy me. And if I'm ever going to be in a relationship again, I want to bring a healthier me. So I need to keep going into recovery even if they don't stay with me for it. Because that's going to be best for me and those that I love for the long run.

Yeah. The only thing I feel like I can add is just grieve and feel this.

Got to feel it to heal.

Man, that is what a terrible thing to say to somebody. You should feel the weight of a divorce, divorce. But man, if you try to fast track this and bypass it, it's going to do way more damage in the long run. You know, I think of this illustration all the time of physical therapy that if you don't do the physical therapy and you don't feel the pain and go through the work of, you know, my father in law, you know, a couple years ago got shoulder surgery and he'd do these exercises that sucked. They hurt. He doesn't want to do it. But you do it so that you can regain movement and you can actually use the arm, you know, the way it's supposed to be used. And it's the same thing, like at a core and soul level, if you don't grieve it and feel it and go through these difficult process and steps of healing, it's just going to do more damage in the long run. And so to Nick's point, I just re emphasize your healing is not contingent on your marriage. Your healing is contingent on the value you have in Christ. And you should do it, period. No question whether the marriage stays or not. But then also know it's going to hurt, but it's okay to press into the hurt. And again, what a terrible thing to say. But it's true.

You just reminded me of something that happened to me when I was early, early on in the process. I bought this little book called the Book of Questions. And I was looking through it and I had a question. I'm going to probably butcher it, but it was something along the lines of, would you rather go through life never feeling great pain but not feeling great joy? Or would you rather go through life feeling great joy but having to feel great pain? And I remember thinking, I remember sitting on the couch just kind of going, I've already chosen. I live that life where I never feel great joy. And I'm always waiting for the shoe to drop. And that's One of the benefits of addiction, right, is you numb those feelings you don't want to feel, but you never really feel the feelings that you want to feel. And so, you know, as we're talking about this, you have to feel it to heal it, because then you kind of expand your range of emotions. I know for me, I used to be so consumed with activity, and one of the great joys I have is coming home in the summer and sitting on my back porch with all the flowers around and hearing the hummingbirds zipping around. I never would have found joy in that before because I was so focused inwardly on my own addiction and getting to porn or whatever it was. And the beauty of this journey is you expand that ability to feel and enjoy life. Yeah.

Well, guys, this has been super good. I mean, it's. It's not always an easy topic to discuss, but it's. It's a reality of recovery. It's a reality of breaking free from addiction and betrayal and navigating that whole journey. And so I hope, whether you are a person in group or a group leader, you're the spouse, you're the struggler. This has just given you some insights on how to face the sacrifices of recovery. And so, guys, as we wrap up today, some last thoughts, final thoughts for our listeners. And this has been kind of a heavy episode. So what are some thoughts to really leave the listener with hope and a sense that, you know, this is worth the sacrifices that we make?

You know, one of the things I would say is there was a guy in my group, and he used. He was from aa, and he'd say, my own best thinking has gotten me to the place I am now. And one of the things I realized is we have to let go of these things that we hold onto that we think are going to provide us the life we want before God can give us those things that he wants to give us that lead to true life. So, you know, we're talking about these things we have to give up or lose. But the reality is we're not giving them up in a vacuum. We give them up so that we can get God's best. And as I look back over my journey, I think all of us would say this. It's extremely painful, the process. But in hindsight, it is one of the most beautiful processes. I would say it's the process of redemption. It is a beautiful, beautiful process that I cherish, and I'm still on that journey. It never ends.

Right.

It's not lost on me that, you know, with receiving salvation, through Christ, that there was a loss involved there, too. There was a sacrifice that needed to be made. And I'm not trying to, you know, make this a great illustration or an allegory or whatever, but there is always some sort of loss in the best things in life. There's always something at stake that goes away or is lost. And I think that's a precedent you can see in Scripture, obviously. But I think that knowing that there's going to be loss at the outset of the recovery journey is a really helpful thing to know. You don't want to get into it and then get punched in the mouth by all the things you're losing. It's like, hold on a second. What is happening? This is not like. Like you're going to have those experiences. But going into it, I think is. With that perspective is one of the things I would just try to leave people with is just know that there are going to be losses and that. So that's one encouragement. The second one is recovery doesn't make life easier. Just sit there for a minute. It really doesn't make life easier, but it makes life better and more fulfilling. And so knowing that it's not going to get easier when you implement these boundaries and you have to cut relationships, that's going to be really hard, but it's going to set you up to have a more fruitful and beneficial life.

Yeah, yeah. That's actually what I was thinking about too, Trevor, just how much of Scripture talks about the reality of suffering and sacrifice and that it's part of this world and it's part of following Christ. And you know, Jesus saying, in this world you will have trouble, you know, if they persecuted me, they'll persecute you. And you know, Peter saying in his little letter, like, you should expect suffering. It's part of this. This life. And don't look at like something strange were happening to you. And so I think with that in mind, though, is how much scripture also gives the promise of the so that. Or the. Because you know, that Jesus saying in Mark 8 that he is, you know, what profits that a person if they give up their, you know, they gain the whole world and yet forfeit their soul. But then there's the flip side of what is gained in following Christ. And I think of Jim Elliott saying, you know, he is no fool who gives up what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose. That there really needs to be here some eternal perspective of who am I becoming, where am I heading, and what might I be holding on to? Right now, that's actually about my own sense of control or what I need to have to feel good. It's like, you know, I'm holding on to this present moment and sacrificing my soul or my family or eternity. And when we start to have that perspective, I think we can just lay some of that down and say, you know, it's worth it and is it a sacrifice? Yes. Does it hurt? Yes. Does it need to be grieved? Yes. But is there, is there good that comes of it and not just in a pithy, like, it'll all get better, but in a truly promise of scripture way that says there is good that's coming for those that walk this road and follow Christ by letting go of what they hold onto. So I think all of us can try to keep that perspective of keeping that long term, eternal perspective in mind that can define some of the sacrifices we're making now and why we should be willing to make. Make them.

Yeah.

Yeah, it's been great, guys.

This is super good. I mean, I. I think, you know, again, it's such a heavy topic, but, but it's a reality. And I think it's important to say this, that it's a reality that we don't have to face alone, that we're not the only one who has to sacrifice on the road to recovery and healing. And that's why we have groups. That's why we have people who have taken their healing and recovery and are now giving it back to other people by leading groups, groups, and by being open and vulnerable and honest and telling their story. So just know you're not alone in this and that this is a reality. But as Nick has, you know, has said, I mean, there's so much hope and so much to gain if we do still push into these sacrifices. So, Mike, again, you did a great job. Just like the last one, you did an awesome job. Thanks for being here.

I love being here. Thank you.

And wherever you're at on your journey, Pure Desire is here to help create a roadmap for your healing. If you or someone you know is impacted by sexual brokenness or betrayal trauma, go to PureDesire.org and start the healing journey today. Don't forget to subscribe to the podcast. Each week we put out new content to help you on the road to healing and freedom. And lastly, never stop being healthy.