246 - Replacing Unwanted Sexual Behaviors

You're listening to the Pure Desire podcast. Your safe place to find hope, healing and freedom from sexual addiction, betrayal and relationship issues. Hello. Hello. I'm your host, Trevor Windsor and you're listening to episode 246 of the Pure Desire podcast. Here joining me as always, is my co host, Nick Stumbo.

The Snack that Smiles back.

I have, I have. No, wait. Nope, I got nothing.

It would probably help if I sang the jingle, only I'm not sure of the tune, so I would butcher it so horribly I'm not even going to try. Okay, but just tell me though, but that is a written, you know, slogan and jingle for goldfish crackers.

Really? Were you. Justin's over there humming they are the.

Snake that Smiles Back? Something like that, yeah.

Wow, that's.

Whoa. I've not heard that dark. That was.

I don't know listener if you heard that.

But for goldfish are sure till you bite their heads off. I don't remember ever hearing that part.

I don't know. I think your parents taught you that as a twisted, weird. It's one of those things where like you realize other families don't play the game the same way you do. Like you guys don't chase each other with knives around the kitchen table. What do you mean? Anyways, before it gets way, way dark. Today we had Heather Cole back on after she rudely her and Ashley kicked us off the podcast for a few weeks. But we had her on to talk about the need for replacing our unwanted behaviors.

Yes, just like the Snack that Smiles Back, we want behaviors in our life that return to us, that feeling of something good, something that gives us meaning or joy because that's ultimately underneath. Unwanted behavior is what we're looking for. We're looking for peace, contentment, joy, belonging, that those are our deep needs and we just don't realize the ways we've been masking it or looking for it in all the wrong places. So I think this episode is so crucial and it feels in some ways kind of like, oh, this is a neat, light hearted, you know, try it if you want. But I think truly it's one of the secrets to recovery is that when we are working away from what we don't want, we've got to have a really clear vision of what we do want and what are the activities that we're going to bring into our life to help us find what maybe we've been looking for all along. So really powerful conversation and I hope everyone gets something out of it.

It's funny what came to mind Was like, this feels like a cheat code in the recovery journey. Is that's one of those things. I don't know if you guys remember those back when they had cheat codes.

Right, right, left, you know, down arrow.

That's right, exactly. All right, before we get to the episode, a few things. Wow, I got tripped up there. Okay. It's not that I've done this for 246 episodes or anything, but first off, subscribe to the podcast if you haven't. We're on all the major platforms. Leave us a review. It helps other people find the podcast. Also, follow us on social media, a Facebook, Twitter and Instagram. We're earedesirepdmi and we also have full episodes of these up on YouTube. Just search Pure Desire minist. And then Nick, we talked about it last episode. We're going to talk about it again. We now are. It's just out there, the group leader training. And the reason why I can't find the words is because we're so excited to finally have this out there.

We are. It's been a long time coming and it's actually one of those byproducts of conversations happening probably two years ago as a ministry where you reflect on what are our greatest needs, what are people in churches and in recovery asking for? What's gonna help move this mission forward? And we identified that really the key to recovery was a healthy group experience. And that the key to a healthy group experience was usually the kind of leader or the health of the leader. You had that. That's what we were hearing over and over was people who said, man, my group leader led us through the material. They helped, they guided. And when people were not doing well in recovery, it often we would hear, well, the group leader. We didn't really use the material or we've been on the same lesson for six months or all these practical things. We're like, wait minute, that doesn't work. And we know why that doesn't work. So building this group leader training course, we just saw as being a key to not only helping groups grow, but really helping people find freedom. Healthy leaders lead healthy groups that create a lot of healthy people. So if you have it on your heart to help others, as God has now been bringing health into your life, we want to encourage you go through the group leader training series. Even if you think, I've got this nailed, I had a great group leader, I'm just going to do what they did. You need to walk through and get this training so that you really feel equipped and confident. To lead group. Well, because we truly believe God can use anyone who's willing to lead group. But if we can help give you some of the tools and the pattern to do it, well, it's just going to benefit everyone that much more. So we hope you'll jump on this and that you'll enjoy watching it as much as we enjoyed making it.

Yeah. And just for some details, it's eight sessions, it has 40 plus videos, shorter bite sized modules, and man, it is just to me, it feels like one of the most important resources that we have created as a ministry and that's why we're so excited about it. So if you're interested in getting this course, go pre order now@puredesire.org GLT all right, here's our conversation with Heather Kolb on replacing our unwanted behaviors. Heather, welcome back to the podcast.

Thank you. I'm excited to be here today.

This is your first time back since you and Ashley kicked us out and took over.

Rude.

Yeah, that was super fun.

Yeah. We were so sad that we bought new tables for the studio now just to make ourselves feel better. But we're excited to have you back. And the reason we had you back on this episode specifically is today we're talking about replacing unwanted behaviors. Unwanted sexual behaviors, Unwanted behaviors. Maybe even from a betrayal side as well, because a lot of that stuff has to do with the brain. And this is something that absolutely is involved in recovery and healing. But we also want to have that neuroscience perspective as well as we get into it. So we talk about this topic a lot, and this phrase comes up a lot, that it's not enough to just stop unwanted behaviors, we need to replace them with new ones. So maybe just start from that neuroscience perspective. Why is this?

Okay, so, and we talk a lot about this, even in Sexual Integrity 101, about how when we repeat behaviors over and over and over again, whatever those behaviors are, it basically creates this neural pathway in our brain so that those behaviors become more automatic. So think about all the things you do, even in the first 30 minutes of your day. A lot of times we don't even need to think about that. Those things basically are on automatic pilot. And so as we continue throughout our life and we have these behaviors, whether they are healthy or unhealthy, they exist mostly because of this neural pathway that's been created in our brain. When it comes to replacing the behaviors, when the behavior is unhealthy or problematic, that's the harder part, because our brain still wants what it wants and it's still gonna do those things in an automatic way unless we intentionally disrupt that pattern. Really, that's what it comes down to is being intentional about breaking that chain or breaking down that neural pathway and then creating a new one that then is beginning to going to become strengthened the more we do those things and it's going to replace that old neural pathway. Does that make sense?

Yeah. Yeah. So quick story. We, like many families in America, got a puppy during COVID And our puppy is now about a year and a half old and he sits at our bedroom door and if it gets to be after 6:30am he starts to whine if we haven't come out. And when I come out, he is the happiest, you know, most excited. I tell you, it is hard to have a bad mood to start your day when any living being is that excited to see you. Right. It's just like. And I. So I advocate for getting, you know, an emotional support puppy if your spouse will allow it. But no, you know what I think about in this answer too? That was just going back to Heather's comment about the first 30 minutes of our day. And I do think that matters, like the mood we're in, the things that we engage with. If I'm immediately on my phone and looking at social media, I'm probably going to feel a lot of other things to start my day and I can carry over. But the other illustration I was thinking of is what they say is the best way to keep weeds out of your lawn. It's not to treat the weeds. It's to have a healthy lawn, to have good grass that's growing in and filling all the space. Because if there's grass everywhere, weeds just can't take root. And that's what I think of when we're looking at replacing those old behaviors is if we're just leaving all these gaps in the lawn of our lives, something else unhealthy will probably find a way to land there, put down roots, grow up, and by the time we realize it's there, it's already got some roots in us. So if we can just keep working on what are those healthy habits and practices. It's like growing that healthy lawn in our brains and in our hearts and minds. There's just not room for the other stuff. And I think that's really the pattern we're trying to develop here.

Yeah. Book I read a couple years ago called the Talent Code by a guy named Daniel Coyle. It's one of my favorite books and it talks about how the brain is not able to unlearn a habit. You have to learn something in place of that habit in order for your brain to stop going toward that other. And sometimes it's not a negative habit that we're changing, but in this case, this is an unwanted behavior that we're trying to change. We have to put something else in its place. And I think so often about Colossians, I feel like it's in Colossians. I keep saying that, and I hope it is, but basically the put on and the takeoff, right? Take off the old man, put on the new. There you go.

Okay.

All right. Confidence. Seal it in brain. I need to say it a bunch, but it's that idea that we can't just take off an old unwanted behavior. We can't just stop doing it. We have to replace it with something. And, you know, I think of you had a video that you played in our old Pure Desire conferences. You played a video of this guy learning how to ride a bike and ride a bike that had it opposite, where if you turned left, your bike went right, and if you turned right, the bike went left. And you see this funny video of him learning and what he's doing. And it's so hard because he's unlearning, quote, unquote, he's replacing an old habit of riding a bike the normal way. And he's struggling and working really, really hard. And you can see it. His brain is literally creating this new neurological pathway. And that's what's happening, is that we have to learn that, because it's like anybody. You've heard it before, you can't unlearn how to ride a bike. It's true. I probably haven't ridden a bike in years, which is my wife's fault. And I will say that to her right now, it's her fault. But I still know how to do it. And it's the same thing.

Yeah, yeah. That video is in Ashley's session.

Oh, it is in Ashley's session. Okay. Well, I gave you credit, and you could have taken it.

I know, but I'm not going to do that.

Sorry, Ashley.

And I think the best part is at the end, when he tries to ride a normal bike and he shows that his brain didn't keep both habits. It just learned a new one. And the old one, he couldn't ride a normal bike until he had some practice on that. So, yeah, fascinating video if you've never seen it. So, Heather, when we're talking about replacing old behaviors, part of that process may be Grieving or letting go of those old behaviors. And we talked about this at length in the last episode. So, listener, if you missed that, I encourage you to go back and grab that one, too. But from your perspective, Heather, and I know you were supposed to answer first, Trevor, but I think Heather should answer first. Again, on the brain side, why is it so important that we grieve losses and let go of those things and not just try to stop thinking about them?

So this is one of the, I think, harder things to recognize when we have unhealthy behaviors is that we have them because they meet a need. And I think that that is even if it's something that you know for sure is going to cause permanent damage, like even, like tobacco smoking or some of these other unhealthy behaviors, people do that because it meets a need for them right there in the moment. And there is a piece of us that. That wants that and became dependent on that behavior. And so when we. Even if we know it's hurting us, we have to go through that process of saying goodbye to it. And I specifically remember this, when I was in counseling for my eating disorder, that it was part of that grieving process was to really have to say goodbye to this piece of my life that had really, in a lot of ways, protected me. And I know that sounds super unhealthy because it was killing me at the same time, but it was this part of me that in the moment was helping me survive a very difficult situation.

Well, emotionally it was helping you survive. Maybe physically it was killing you.

Exactly.

But emotionally it was helping you. Yeah.

Yep. And so. And I know that ifs, this is really at the core of what ifs does, internal family systems, is that even when we have these parts of us that are unhealthy and they're hurting us, at some point we need to say goodbye to that, that unhealth, or we need to then understand, recognize how it was trying to help us in the moment, but yet we don't need it anymore. And it does really come back to that whole physiological process in our brain that in the moment tells us that we need this in order to survive. At a foundational level, we need this. And I think a lot of times we don't necessarily recognize upfront that over time, this is going to cause a lot of damage to us and maybe even to those around us.

Last episode, I used an illustration from my younger son. So this one, I'll use an illustration from my older son. I just thought of the idea of transitioning out of a pull up or a diaper. It's like this is literally beneficial for you even at a biological level. If you were to sit around in your diaper that had pee in all day, it probably wouldn't be good for your skin. But it's also one of those things that it's just part of the process of growing is that you transition out of this and there's a lack of security. I remember when he, when Brady was learning how to hold basically his bladder during the night and it was a difficult process. I mean, my wife did a lot of laundry and she did not like it. And I can say that with confidence because she has told me that. But I think that it's that thing where you lose that security, that sense of like, but what if something bad happens? But what if I have to feel this emotional pain? And my son went through that like, well, what if I pee the bed again? What if I get wet? What if I have to deal with this discomfort again? And I think it's simple similar. I think it's that thing that adds security. And you know, last episode I talked a little about the idea of it soothing, that it's something we use to soothe when we deal with pain. And so you're welcome, boys. I used you both in back to back episodes to illustrate something your 5.

Year old son listens to our podcast.

No, no, no. As much as his daddy tells him to, he does.

Someday he might. And then he'll hear you say, you know, you're welcome.

Talks about you in diapers, Brady, you're welcome.

I think I also bring up the illustration that Ted Roberts uses a lot of stepping out of the boat, you know, Jesus, calling us out of the boat. And yet how many of us keep one hand on the rail like, well, just in case this doesn't work out. And what he's referring to isn't just the security of a boat, but that old unhealthy coping behavior of like, I'm not sure I know how to do life without this. So in the back of my mind I'm aware of a way that I have access or that person I could reach out to or that go to. And if we realize we have that, that's evidence. We've not really let go of it. We've not grieved the loss. And that may be exactly what this episode is for, for you to realize I'm still holding on because I've got this idea in the back of my mind, I could go here and do that. And what would it look like for you to let go and to grieve that loss so that you can move forward in your healing and recovery. Yeah.

Well, and I think that sometimes that's the way that we find ourselves caught up in some other unhealthy behavior. Is that because that need still exists? And even if we can let go of one thing that was meeting that need, we quickly grab onto something else that is unhealthy, that really is replacing that need in a dangerous way?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yep.

Okay. So when it comes to replacing our unwanted behaviors, what kinds of behaviors should we consider?

Yeah, a couple of thoughts on this. I think the first one is that we should try to identify why have we been using that unwanted behavior. So if it's been our way of dealing with stress, we might ask the question, well, what are other healthy ways that I have done before in my life that relieve stress? Maybe it's going for a walk, playing with your dog, calling up a friend, or if you're escaping, when you get really angry and emotional, you find that's when you're tempted to say, okay, well, what could I do in those moments? Instead, I go out to my garage and I've got a bag, I go to the punching bag. Right. Just kind of identifying when I have that same experience, what will I do instead? So not just replacing the behavior directly, but more what's the emotion or environment that takes you to the behavior and then seek something that's an alternative. And I think that's the same for a betrayed spouse, too. If your unwanted behavior is like stonewalling or lashing out in explosive anger, to ask instead, okay, what are other habits or activities I could choose rather than going to some of those unhealthy emotional places. The second idea on this is just to really look at your life from that holistic point of view to not just say, well, I've been looking at porn, so instead I need to do more exercise. Okay, that may cover the physical aspect of health, but we want to recognize that we're connected beings and we are emotional, relational, spiritual, physical. And in all those areas, just looking at what are habits, practices I can implement that are going to move me as a person towards health. Because when we're moving as a person towards health, then that particular behavior, I think, loses a lot of the strength it has because we just have health coming in in a lot of other places. So it's not always going to be one to one. Now, I think that's that first point. We do want to just say, well, what's the direct different behavior I could choose, but in a. In a greater way. We just want to say how can I be moving towards health as a person and looking holistically at that approach.

A second layer to something you mentioned about the choosing different behaviors is is also looking at what behaviors put me in those situations where I do get triggered. You know, for me one of the things anger for me is like a. It's a masking agent in so many ways. When I'm feeling other emotions, it tends to come out as anger. And so for me, journaling has been something that I can do as a d practice that enables me to process where I'm at emotionally. And I see that that has a direct impact on me being less angry or responding in a less angry way when those situations happen. So it's almost like the behavior before the behavior, if that makes sense. What are things I can do to get myself into a better place? But then I think of and this is just the illustration that came up is looking for behaviors that push me into relationship. And an example that comes to mind for me is like there's tennis or there's golf. One of them, though my father in law would argue with me, is one you can do by yourself. Golf, tennis. And again Gary, it's not true you can't play tennis by yourself. Tennis is something you need to have a partner playing with you. And I think that that's just a really simple illustration to say is this activity that I'm doing, this habit, this rhythm, whatever, pushing me into relationship and encouraging me to involve other people or is it just giving me another outlet to potentially isolate? That doesn't mean you can't go golf with other people. That doesn't mean you can't have silence and solitude. But looking for more those things that incorporate other people into the process.

In Unraveled, we encouraged women to make a list of the things that you could do that would replace those immediate behaviors. And the the idea of the list was that so morning, noon and night, regardless of the time of day, that you had several options to choose from. Because if you are going to rely on that, okay, when I feel triggered this way or this thing is tempting me, I'm going to only do this one thing that might not work. You know, if it's 10 o' clock at night or it might not work if it's 10 in the morning. And so just being able to make yourself a list of eight or ten things that those become your go to behaviors to choose something that is going to be healthy for you or like you said, Trevor, move you toward relationship.

And that those, maybe even the idea of riding out or having to think through what are healthy behaviors I can do might sound exhausting and it might take a lot of work to think through that because we don't often think about that. We think what would be most pleasurable or more fun or whatever. We don't think what is the healthiest decision I should make right now. You know, that's not a really easy place to get to, especially if you're in some bad habits. But doing that sort of exercise is going to be really beneficial in the long run. And so it's kind of one of those things where you got to just kind of embrace the suck at the beginning to then get the benefit at the end. And so, so yeah, doing more tools like that, thinking more future minded in that sense I think is really helpful. Pornography, it's not a comfortable subject, but 94% of men and 87% of women have seen pornography at some point in their lives. Has porn impacted your life and your relationships? Well, here's the good news. You can begin the journey to freedom today and have peace of mind, knowing you're not alone in the fight. That's how Covenant Eyes, this week's sponsor on the podcast, works through biblical accountability. When you sign up, you choose an ally to receive your device reports and walk with you toward a life free from porn and the life that God desires for you. You can try it free for 30 days by visiting www.Covenant Eyes.com and you can enter the promo code PureDesire at checkout. All one phrase, no spaces. That's www.CovenantEyes.com promo code Pure desire at checkout. Freedom begins today. Let's share some personal examples. What are some healthy replacement behaviors that you guys have found that have been just beneficial in your journey?

So I think for me, the number one thing for me is always sleep. And especially if I start to get really grumpy or grouchy or start to use way more sarcasm toward my husband, something like that, than I nephew or my. Yes, exactly. But that's my first go to is because I know that when I am sleep deprived for whatever reason, I become the worst version of myself. And then the other thing too is for me is to reach out to those people that I love and trust who are safe for me. Especially if I know that, that I've been isolating for a long time. Because honestly, my isolation is not. I love it. I'm a five on the Enneagram. And so isolation is like heaven to me. And so. And so. But a lot of times I find myself seeking isolation because it's easy, not because it's bringing me back to a relationship. And so I will intentionally make those phone calls, reach out to a friend for coffee. All of those things that I know are going to feel uncomfortable in the moment, probably for me, but then I know they're really good for my physical and mental health.

Totally a couple for me. And I mentioned on several podcasts that fantasy sports were a part of my pattern of numbing out, going too far, clicking on things I shouldn't. And I realized the starting point was usually just looking for kind of a break from work, from sitting at my desk and emails and phone calls. And so the question was, well, what can I do instead of going online? And to me that became, I need to get up and move, I need to get out of the office, I need to go for a quick walk, I need to just walk around. When I was a pastor, it's like there's always something around the building that needs to be turned off or checked on or in a smaller church. A lot of that was up to me. So I would just go do little things for a few minutes or now it's just go make a cup of coffee or tea. Something that gets me up moving and doesn't just say, oh my, go to do something online. Another big one for me was recognizing part of my pattern was that mid afternoon lull where it's quiet, I'm a little down energy wise, maybe lunch is still kind of taking the blood out of my brain. I just had to plan. That's when I was going to make my group phone calls. Two o', clock, take a break, get up from my desk, make a phone call. Because that was my low time. And rather than being open to just other temptations to say, I'm going to proactively plan community and health. And that was, especially in the first year, a big, big game changer for me. And the third example I'd give, you know, for a lot of people traveling, the isolation of hotel rooms can be an issue. So, you know, I needed to replace the behavior of turning on the TV and the temptations or triggers that could bring. So instead I've always committed to calling home when I get into the hotel room and then also having a good book with me that I'm reading. And I don't mean like a leadership book or theology book, I mean like popcorn fiction, like Clive Cussler. Yeah, Clive Cussler's my go to, I'll admit, like, he's not that great of a writer. It's not that deep. The stories aren't.

Clive, if you're listening, we're so sorry.

If Clive does listen, that would be phenomenal because the guy's gotta be a multi millionaire. He's got hundreds of books.

He's not that good of a writer. He's written hundreds of books.

That's why I say he's not that good because he just keeps cranking them out. But they're popcorn fiction of, like, they're easy to read. They don't make, you know, I don't have to engage a ton of mental energy. It's almost like. And they're, you know, they don't have sex and language and stuff like that. So. So I've just found it's a way that I can kind of zone out and not have triggering situations come up. So for you, if you travel, whatever that is, if it's the kind of book that you usually don't read, that just is fun and lighthearted or some activity that you just know. When I'm at my hotel after that business meeting, this is what I do. And it fills up the night and it's positive. And then I go to bed and feel good about my day versus ruining it with some late night activity.

Totally. I think for me, some of the things are just finding those pockets of time that I already had open and leveraging those for health. You know, you talked about phone calls. Like, for me, drive time is a time for phone calls. Like, I listen to books and podcasts and things too, but that's like, I try to make two or three phone calls every single week to friends, to group members, whatever it may be. And that is usually really beneficial because that puts me in a good space when I get to work and if I'm calling but on my way home, it puts me in a better space when, you know, when I get home. And then journaling and everyone who's listened and read any of my stuff knows that journaling is just a really beneficial and helpful thing for me because it allows me to sit and process and be present with how I'm feeling, with the things that are on my heart and mind, things I want to pray about. And for me, that's what it is. Journaling is praying, as I'm just spending time talking to the Lord, but just using, you know, my pen. And one of the things I've, you know, one of the things I've realized And we've heard. I've heard this from our friend Jay Stringer, is that he said sometimes when he sits down to write, words come out of his fingers that wouldn't have come out of his mouth. And I feel the exact same way about journaling that there are times where, wow, I didn't realize that I felt that way or thought that. And I don't think I would have ever said it that way. And there's this weird kind of creative, poetic way that words can come out sometimes when we're writing. But that just for me, engages multiple sides of my brain and also engages my emotions. It's been helpful.

That's good.

So when we think about these new healthy behaviors, things that we're entering into, how involved should other people be in helping create those or choose those for us? Like a spouse, a group member, maybe our counselor, Is this just something we do on our own? Or how could we, in appropriate ways involve others in the process?

So I think that we can involve others. I think there's also an area of this where couples might need to tread lightly depending on where they are at in the. Their healing. Exactly that process. Because sometimes for a betrayed spouse, she may not want to know what her spouse thinks that she should be doing for replacing healthy behaviors, he might have lost that privilege for a while. And so I said he just in that stereotypical way. But. But you know what I mean. And so, but if specifically for a betrayed spouse, that's where they might need some insights from their group, if they're in a betrayal and beyond group or if they have safe friends, that they might even be stuck. Like, okay, I don't want to be doing these things that are causing me more distress. And so what can I be doing instead to break out of these unhealthy patterns? And that would be a great conversation for betrayed spouse to have.

Yeah. Because you honestly, especially if you're early on in recovery or in healing from betrayal and you're in any kind of crisis, your decision making is going to be probably suspect. Like, there's a little bit of. I just, like, my head's on fire, I don't know what's happening. And involving other people is really important. And I think for me, with my therapist, it's been really helpful to have those conversations. And it's not that he isn't concerned with maintaining relationship and rapport with me, but there's a different level of that that maybe a spouse or a close friend might have where they're thinking about, well, I don't want to hurt Trevor's feelings. So I'm not going to say anything. Or maybe I need to just, like, take a step back and let him figure this out. Where a counselor, if I'm asking them, like, what do you think they're going to say? Well, this is what I think, and my therapist has done a good job of that. And so I think the reason. I think it's just important to understand that the reason why we involve other people is because depending on where we're at in the season of recovery and healing, we might not be the best source to come up with those habits for ourselves.

Yeah, I think it's okay to acknowledge if we've become stuck and we really can't see the alternatives. And so go going to our group or our spouse, just say, I don't know what else to do. What are your thoughts? And then making sure we're really open to that. Because the truth is, what they suggest might not make sense to us, but that's because we're stuck and we need to be open to it. Because I have had situations with people in group that they say, well, I don't know what to do. And group members start to suggest things and their attitude quickly becomes, oh, well, that won't work. Well, I can't do that. Here's why that won't work. Oh, I've already tried that. And you get the feeling, like, is it really that you don't know what to do or you're not actually willing to do anything other than what you've already been doing and you're just looking for how to actually make that work? So I think if we don't know what to do, that's key. Just really being open to the input of others because if they see something, they're really suggesting it because they believe it would help us. And why not try that on, see if it will work. Give it a few weeks or months to make it a new habit before you go, oh, that won't work. And here's why. Because that's probably why we're stuck. Because we have, in our own perspective, dismissed a lot of things that could have helped us.

Totally.

Yeah. Change is hard.

It is. Amen.

So how does everything that we're talking about today relate to our three circles tool? That relapse prevention tool that a lot of us who are involved in? Pure desire. We're very familiar with that. But for those listeners who maybe aren't familiar with that also, what does that look like?

Yeah, yeah. I mean, the real quick and simple overview is it. It has a middle circle that defines what a relapse or a crash is. It has an inner circle. I just mix those up. Inner circle, middle circle would be your boundaries or guardrails. What are those things that I'm choosing not to do? Because in the past they've led me to that inner circle relapse and then the outer circle. The third one is, what are the healthy behaviors that I'm choosing to do instead? And I know a lot of people like to think of it as red, yellow, green, like a stoplight red. I don't go, that's a relapse. Yellow, that's where I have to be careful. But green is defining what can I do, where can I go instead? And we really encourage the use of this tool because I think it gives us a snapshot of our plan and to see how they relate. So if you've got a lot of boundaries and guardrails that are keeping you away from that old negative behavior, that's good. But then what relates to that outer circle? And so I think as we adopt these new practices, we want to make sure we write them onto our three circles and that we keep kind of looking for the links to the guardrails or even the crash to say, how is this helping me replace those and move towards health versus sometimes what I can find in group is a person. They'll just be writing healthy behaviors. Eat better, sleep more. And I mean, those things are good, but if they're not connected to a kind of personal conviction or to my old and healthy patterns of why I see this would be good. It's probably not going to help us much. So. So that'd be my encouragement as you fill out your tool when you're thinking of that green zone, don't just list random healthy behaviors. Try to identify things that for you specifically would have value and why.

Yeah, and gosh, like, don't pick things that just work for other people. Like, if so you run, you're a runner. Which makes zero sense to me why people like running, which is why running is not something that I have in my outer circle. Because it just sounds like there's zero pleasure involved with it. I don't.

I don't lead you back to your craft.

Yeah, exactly. I followed I need to cope with the pain. So I think that there needs to be like, not a comparison in that sense. But I like what you're saying about connecting it to our old behaviors. Like, you know, for me, I just recently was exploring kind of this topic with, with a blog that for me I've used to use movies and TV as a way to numb out. And that also would be part of my matrix of addiction where I would move into the crash. But for me, repurposing that same behavior, but involving other people. Like every week we have a family movie night. We do a Sabbath every single week and we have a family movie night where all four of us sit down and watch a movie. That is replacing that old behavior. It is the same behavior, but it's in a different context. But I think you just need to be realistic. Because I'm an early riser, I get up. You get up at 6:30 because your dog. I get up at 5 because I want to get some things done before my dogs. Boys wake up at 6:30. And so not everybody can get up at 5 or wants to get up that early. And so you also have to cater a little bit to your own personality, your own rhythms. I don't think that that's bad that Nick likes to run and I like to get up early.

Yeah. I think if you see your green circle, that outer circle starting to become a list of things you should do well, I should eat better. I should get up earlier. I should read my Bible more. That's actually more the language of the yellow middle circle, the ought to's. And honestly those don't have as much impact from what I've heard Heather say at changing my brain long term. And so if you realize everything you're writing out there are just the should do's. Stop shooting on yourself.

Yeah.

And say instead, what do I like to do? What do I want to do? What would excite me to be like, I really like hiking and I've hardly done it in the last few years. I'm going to make that one of my. At least once a month I go for a hike and I'm looking forward to it. Now that's what you want in your green circle. And maybe there are a few things of like eat more vegetables. But if your list is dominated by what I should do, it's probably not going to stay read my Bible for.

Six hours and pray for 14 of the other out. You know, like, not that they can't be good things, but being realistic is what I hear you saying too. Like there's a realistic level of like, well, I have a job. I can't read the Bible for 16 hours a day and that's okay.

Nick, I've heard you say this multiple times, that your green circle is your yes circle. And that's one of the things is our brain loves. Yes. It loves the things that even as we anticipate doing something, like you just mentioned going on a hike once a month, even that anticipation of that is gonna stimulate the production of great dopamine in our brain and is really gonna be impactful when it comes to changing those unhealthy neural pathways in our brain, which is great. I mean, that's a great tool.

So, like all things, these new behaviors, which are probably good and are okay, can oftentimes run into us using them in unhealthy ways. You know, I think of the gym where people go and they work out and they're getting healthy and they're physically getting fit, but then they realize they're spending hours and hours and hours after work or, you know, every day at the gym and sacrificing relationship things like that. How do we ensure that we're not just recreating old. You know, basically recreating these old unwanted behaviors in just new ways that are creating problems?

Yeah, this is a great question, because I think that that happens a lot to all of us. Let's see, for example, let's say you have somebody who is using porn and masturbating, and so they decide to stop doing that, and they're going to replace that with going to the gym, which, like you said, is a healthy behavior. But at some point, they have to be able to recognize when that new healthy behavior becomes obsessive, becomes something that they use as an escape to avoid conflict with people that they love. If it's something that they're using, like you said, six hours a day instead of, let's be healthy and go to the gym one hour, four or five days a week. But it becomes something that now it's. They're using it in an unhealthy way. Does that make sense? So. And I think that takes for all of us this level of awareness that, yes, this thing is good and healthy, but if it becomes something that, again, I'm using to escape, I'm using to avoid, I'm using to numb out, then we have to reevaluate. What is that gonna look like now to replace it with something healthy? Because I think that this is really at the core when we see a lot of people who struggle with addictive behaviors, is that they go through this cycle of swapping out all these other things that then become addictive behaviors.

And.

And it really kind of makes their healing process a lot longer because they're having to filter through all of these behaviors. Does that make sense?

Yeah. And I've heard you talk about this, Heather, and I experienced it, too, that sometimes it's okay that we're moving towards less destructive coping behaviors if we're aware that we need to keep facing it. Like, in my first year of recovery, I mean, if you think I drink a lot of coffee now, you should have seen me in year one of recovery. And my wife said to me, she's like. Like, you're seriously a coffee addict now, more than you ever have been in your life. But she said, at least that one never hurts me. And so I'm okay with it. And I was aware, like, yeah, I'm making a lot of pots of coffee, but I'm also not doing the old stuff. And now I don't drink near the amount of coffee I did that first year. So I think for me, I look at. We've got to be honest with the why behind our behaviors. So for me, running is an outlet. But there are times where my focus can start to become more on, am I fast? Am I improving? Am I faster than other people? And if I'm not, then I can feel like, what's the point? And, well, I'm losing my why, Because I'm actually getting back into a performance mode and using running as a way to feel better than other people or to compete and compare. And those are part of my unhealthy patterns. So I have to remember the why is. No, the why is it's healthy for me. Mentally, it's a way to just refresh, recharge time, to have some inner dialogue with God. And when that's the focus, no matter the speed, it's good for me. So I think for all of us, we do just have to have that balance of what is the why behind my behavior? And if I realize the why is back to some old, unhealthy coping behaviors, it may not even mean we need to change or stop that behavior. Because if it is a healthy behavior, it may just be a refocusing time of, I've got to come back to the reasons I set out to do this in the first place.

And I had an experience like that, because what I would say is, it's just putting parameters around that behavior. Because when after Brady was born, I was. I think it was the first time I was going through the Harry Potter books, and I just was like, I can't. I need to have more of this. Like, I need to read. And I found myself just kind of going back into our room and Reading. And what I found out probably after a couple weeks is like, that started to annoy my wife and it's like, where are you going? You know? And I realized I was escaping and I didn't realize at the time I was avoiding some hard conversations. And we were in our debt free journey, which was really difficult. We were living with my in laws, which, you know, I felt like crap about. They're great. I feel crap about me. But I realized that a way to still enjoy reading and not have to get rid of that was to put the parameter on it of asking her, hey, do you mind if I go read for a little bit in the room? And if she said yes, then it's okay. This is a healthy thing. I'm checking in with her first and making sure I'm not avoiding something. Because if the answer was no, then there's something we need to talk about. You know what I mean? So it elevated. Oh, yeah, okay. There are some things I might be running away from. So just putting parameters because I think it can be an all or nothing thinking where it's like, no, now I can't watch movies anymore. It's like, well, no, no, no, let's just put some parameters around it.

Well, I think this is really encouraging to think about. No matter where we are in our recovery journey, I think continuing to develop new healthy behaviors that replace unhealthy ones is just, that's an ongoing journey for all of us. And I'm finding at different stages of life, you know, as I've got teenage kids now, and some of the complexity of that, there's new habits I'm tempted to use to escape. And that means there's new habits I've got to develop for health. And so for all our listeners, I hope you're grabbing something out of this that for you, you can begin implementing in your journey. But let's wrap up with just what are some of our closing thoughts and encouragements we'd like to leave people with as it comes to renewing their mind by developing those new healthy behaviors.

A couple of things that just come to mind for me are being realistic. Say I value reading the Bible and spending time praying. If in my day I can't devote two hours to it, but I can devote 15 minutes. It's not an all or nothing like be realistic. And the idea too is not, I hear a lot of people say words like this that it's not about what we do, it's who we're becoming and our daily decisions over time. It's like building a Lego. If I put. Because Brady's into Legos right now, this is how I think. But if I put one piece of a LEGO onto something I'm building every single day, like, it may not feel significant for that day, but over a year, that LEGO is going to be huge, and there's going to be a lot that has taken place. And so I think that way, just being realistic and another kind of application, maybe from my life is I'm finishing up a master's degree right now, which takes away a lot of my time, which means I'm sacrificing some of those things I used to really like doing and were really beneficial for me. Me and seminary is very beneficial for me. It absolutely is. But it's a season where I'm trying to be realistic. I have to pull back on some of these other things that I used to do when I had more time. Because if I'm just trying to do everything all the time, then I'm going to burn out. I'm going to hurt relationships with my family. I'm not going to be as focused. And so being realistic with our schedule, with our rhythms, and knowing that it's seasonal, I think has been really helpful.

Yeah, that's good. I'm going to say what I always say because I just think that this is so important, but pick one thing. It's always just pick one thing that you can do to, you know, raise that level of awareness and make a change that you're going to then do for 30 days. And even if it's something like evaluating whether or not a behavior is healthy or unhealthy is just to kind of monitor that for yourself. If you find that you're being pulled, like when things get uncomfortable in your family or with your spouse and you find yourself being pulled in the direction in a different direction. It's evaluating that. Why? Why is this happening right now? Why am I being triggered and wanting to escape back into this old behavior? That would probably be like your first step. And then it would be to figure out, okay, if this is happening. And I understand why. What can I do instead is kind of to go through that process, but only pick one thing at a time so that then you're successful.

Yes. And for us, enneagram threes, that's really important advice to remember one thing. Not all at once. One at a time is okay.

Seven's too, man. We have a hard time over here.

And I think that relates to the final advice I would just share is in this process, be okay with trial and error, be okay with experimenting and failing. And especially for those of us that tend to be in a performance mode or slip into that, we can feel a little bit restricted. Like, I don't know if I'll like it or be good at it. So I won't even try. It's like, no, it's okay. Try it out. And if it doesn't really bring life or help you move towards healthy behaviors, then go on to something else, you know? Example of this early in my recovery, there were a couple of times I was invited to play paintball and I wondered if paintball would be like one of those healthy outlets. And I just found out the answer was absolutely no because it was way too competitive. I would get way too stressed. I mean, in the moment I would enjoy it. And if you invite me to a paintball thing, I'll go. But it is not going to be part of my healthy behaviors because it was like the night before I can't sleep. It just was so in that competitive mode. So I had to be willing to be okay with that. Like, this just isn't going to be something I pursue as a hobby. And okay, I'll move on to something else. But if we're not willing to try, if we're not willing to engage with those things, we probably will keep coming back to the old familiar behaviors just because we know what to expect and we know what the ground rules are. So this, as you said, change isn't easy, but we've got to be willing to try some things and maybe we'll find out we like bird watching a lot more than we thought, or we're way more into reading a certain genre of books than we thought we would be, where we maybe like a certain kind of music more than we ever thought. So just trying. I remember one of the best voices that really advocates for this at Pure Desire is Harry Flanagan in the Seven Pillars Workbook in his counseling. I know he talks about that a lot about go try something new and if you decide you don't like it, that's fine. The trying the new thing helps your brain and you will then find some things that can become part of those inner, those outer circle, healthy behaviors for the long haul. So don't be afraid to try and to fail and not see it as failure. Just to say, oh, that one didn't work for me. Great, go on to the next thing.

That's good. I'm writing down something new I've wanted to try and then I'm just coming here I come Amazon I feel like this is such a foundational conversation and topic for recovery and I'm glad that we finally have had it. Amanda We've talked around this topic for a while, but but I think it's important to say that this is not a like really easy. What we say is just plug and play and you can just change your habits right away. But to know what I'm hearing is Jenna Reimersma the idea of self compassion, just give yourself a break as you were saying. And as Harry teaches, just that idea and so just be encouraged that replacing old behaviors is not gonna be like a 1, 2, 3 and you're healthy kind of thing. It is trial and error, as Nick said. But it is something that can be fun fun and can be exciting when we're finding new things and new ways to get healthier. So Heav, thanks for being here. Appreciate you.

Yeah, I love this.

And wherever you're at on your journey, pure desire is here to help create a roadmap for your healing. If you or someone you know is impacted by sexual brokenness or betrayal trauma, go to PureDesire.org and start the healing journey today. Don't forget to subscribe to the podcast. Each week we put out new content to help you on the road to healing and freedom. And lastly, never stop being healthy.

Sam.