247 - Becoming A Porn-Free Person w/ Matt Dobschuetz

You're listening to the Pure Desire Podcast, your safe place to find hope, healing, and freedom from sexual addiction, betrayal, and relationship issues. Hello. Hello. I'm your host, Trevor Windsor, and you're listening to episode 247 of the Pure Desire podcast here. Joining me as always, is my co host, Nick Stumbo.

Born free. Free as the wind blows. Born Free.

Okay, here's where my head goes. Either it's a like an American so just straight out American, or that's an old hymn from some hymnal I've never opened.

I have absolutely no idea. I think it's like a 1970s country Western song. But it just popped into my head. And today we interviewed Matt Dobschutz with his new book, Porn Free. That's right. So it was just a natural connection in my brain to Born Free, but the focus of today is on his book, Porn Free. Yes. So there you go.

Matt has just released Porn Free, becoming the type of man who does not look at po. And this is our second crossover podcast that we've done with Matt. Matt is also the host of the Porn Free Radio podcast. And yeah, we talked about his book, but then we also really just talked about, I think, really the factors or the aspects to becoming someone who is a porn free person.

Yeah, yeah. And Matt's kind of a part of the OG for the podcast community on this topic. He started back in 2014, just a voice that's been encouraging a lot of men in their journey to freedom. And I think today's conversation was really, it really dives into the aspects of why is behavior modification not enough? You know, why is the goal not simply to be sober and be able to count how many days since I last looked at porn, but to get at those underlying factors of relationship and connection and being known and how, you know, pornography becomes a false substitute or in his words, as people hear today of a poor solution for things that we are all legitimately looking for. And so whether you are a man or a woman who struggles or married to a man or woman who struggles, I think there's just a ton of great insight here and we'll probably prompt you to go pick up his book by the time it's all said and done.

Absolutely. A few quick things before we get into it. Subscribe to the podcast. We're on all the major platforms and if you can write us a review, it is very helpful. Also, I would just say why don't you go subscribe to Matt's podcast as well, The Porn Free Radio podcast. Check that out. You can also follow us on social media earedesirepdmi. And then we also have full episodes of this podcast up on YouTube. So check that out. All right, Today's episode again is sponsored by Covenant Eyes. Nick, Covenant Eyes is an organization that we're close with, we're friends with, and some people have heard of them. But for some of our listeners who maybe haven't, can you tell us a little bit about Covenant Eyes?

Yeah, we love the team at Covenant Eyes. We've worked with them for a long time and they really are old school when it comes to accountability software. They were the first in the game. And what I love is that they have just continued to develop and grow their product all the way to the point that right now Covenant Eyes screen accountability actually involves some AI software that is reading what is on your screen versus just reading what you type in.

It's not like Skynet.

It's really amazing. It makes, I think, accountability software kind of foolproof or there's a very strong inability for someone motivated to make bad choices to do it without people being alerted. And so it's really changing the conversation about accountability. And I know for some people that word accountability maybe has a negative connotation, but why would that be? Because we're accountable, I think, in any area of life that's really important to us. So why wouldn't we be accountable in an area as important as our biblical sexuality? So with Covenant Eyes screen accountability software, you can begin that journey to freedom and have the peace of mind that you're not alone in the fight. And I think what I love about it too is that it isn't just something you use for like a season, but you can continue to walk in freedom and really make accountability software just a part of your new normal, how you do life in a healthy way. And it's exciting that you can try Covenant Eyes for free for 30 days, no strings attached, no commitments. Just go to CovenantEyes.com and at checkout enter the code PureDesire. So all one word, Pure Desire. I know normally Pure Desire is two words, but for the promo code, you want to enter it as one word@CovenantEyes.com and start your journey to living in biblical accountability today through Covenant Eyes. Good.

As if one call to action and having 30 days free isn't enough. They also have a 14 day video series that they want you to have access to. Brandon Antonia Clark.

The video series is 14 days long.

It's a. Well, I mean like 24 hours a day. They'll send you a New, like, episode video every day for 14 days.

That makes a lot more sense.

Yeah. Okay. Yeah, words matter, people. Words matter. Commas matter too, apparently. But Brandon and Tonya Clark have been through the struggle where porn hit their marriage and they had really deep, dark moments. But they found healing and hope from that hopeless situation and they share their story through this 14 day series. Again, this is free and you can get it by texting the word vows to 66866. That's the word. V O W S to 66866. All right, here is our conversation with Matt Dobschutz on becoming a porn free person. Matt Dobschutz, crossover, take two. Welcome back, my friend.

Wow, man, it's great to be back. Boy, the whole world changed since the last time we talked.

Yes, I was just talking.

We recorded an episode in early 2020 and you guys were like, yeah, we might have to work from home next week. And then I was like, yeah, I think in Illinois, there's some stuff going on. And by two weeks later, my kids were both here for the next year and we lived on top of each other for, you know, luckily they're both at school now, finally.

Yeah, right. It has been an eventful couple of years for sure. But one of the things that has come out of it, it seems like, is your book Porn Free. You now, sir, are published author Matt d', Abashutz, host of the Porn Free radio podcast. This is a big deal, man. Congratulations on the book.

Thanks.

I figured if I didn't finish this book in 2020 or 2021, I really should just stop writing. I mean, there was no experience.

There wasn't a lot else to do.

No.

There was no excuses, for sure. Well, congrats on your podcast, guys. I was just looking at the numbers back when we did our first episode. I think I was on episode 151. Well, you guys have done like 100 episodes since then during the pandemic.

Yes, one a week.

And I was on episode 233 and I've done like 35 episodes. So, yeah, you guys have outdone me. So great job.

Thanks, man. Yeah, it's been. We enjoy this part, for sure, of the ministry and what we get to do for our jobs, but honestly, man, we get to talk to a lot of really cool people and have a lot of really cool conversations, and so we're glad to have you back on.

Well, I've heard. I've heard great feedback about the women takeover that you did early in 2022.

Yes.

So I think that was a great idea. I wish I would have thought of it.

I know. How would that work with the women's takeover for you? I mean, you're a one man show.

Well, you know, actually, you know, we're working on one of my friends, Hope Ray is gonna be doing some episodes with me. I kind of. From you guys, I kind of stole this. I love the, you know, your camaraderie and your kind of back and forth. So Hope's gonna be sitting in for some porn free radios coming up. And I love the female perspective, not only on recovery, but obviously in relationships, you know, there's so much of the partner story. I mean, there's partners who listen to porn. Free radio. Yeah. As a way to understand their. Their husbands and boyfriends and.

Yep.

So I. I like the idea.

Yeah.

Well, we're looking forward to those episodes coming out for sure.

Glad to know we're inspiring you, Matt.

No joke. Well, hey, let's jump in. Writing a book, you and I were talking, even pre show. It's no joke. It's a lot of hard work. And yes, the Pandemic did create a lot of space for things like that. But tell us about the book, man, and why you decided to write it.

Well, the funny thing is, one of the reasons I started a podcast back in 2014 is I Thought, well, no one struggling with porn wants to read a book. That was my basic idea. So I said, what's the easiest thing that I could create that people might listen to or consume? And I thought, well, I don't want to be on YouTube because that's just going to potentially and be in a platform that's going to be challenging. And I thought, well, podcasting is non visual and it's easy to consume. So that was kind of the idea of a podcast. Well, as my wife has told me for many years, not everyone listens to podcasts like you do, Matt. And so this was always the goal is like, well, let's see if we can get a book out to a place where people are looking for help. And I realized a lot of people start their search in Amazon or on a book site looking for resources. So the idea was, well, could we do some of the stuff that we do in the podcast in a book? That would be a good entry point for people.

Yeah, it's great. I mean, I got to flip through it over the weekend going into it, and I appreciate just the rawness, you know, some of the share. Some of the stories that you shared in it I thought were vulnerable and it's really cool because, I mean, for us, we live in that world where that's something that's important for us to model as leaders of the organization, leading groups, helping people through vulnerability and going first is so key. But I just appreciated your insight on so many things. But the vulnerability piece was just really, really stuck out to me. So, I mean, it takes a lot of courage to do that. And so I admire that. You know, and having your face on the COVID of a book that says Porn Free, like you. It's not something that you wake up one day and you're like, you know what? I'm going to write a book called Porn Free and everyone's going to see my face on it. Like, it's just not something that happens all that often. So I just appreciate the courage and vulnerability you put into it.

Well, thanks for saying that. And, you know, it was deliberate to put my picture on it and to even, you know, we were joking about the font and the colors and stuff. It's supposed to be bright and inviting and it's supposed to be like a first person kind of connection. That's what really worked in my podcast is people connected with my story and some of my failures and my, you know, the tools and things that I learned. And so we wanted to create the same experience with a reader. And frankly, you know, I mean, Nick Stumbo's book looks pretty hopeful on the outside, but, you know, a lot of the books in our category, you know, everyone's in chains or darkness. You know, there's one where there's a sad woman under an umbrella. A black umbrella.

Yeah.

I mean, it's just like the imagery is so dark and shame based that I really wanted something that was completely different and that was the goal. You know, I want a book that people actually want to read and engage with and be hopeful about. You know, who wants to get a book about a challenge they're having in life that just makes them feel worse about themselves?

Yeah, you're in prison.

Seriously.

Well, and let's be honest, in a world where there are literally millions of websites people can go to to access porn and sexually explicit material, and I think they still print magazines and the access to it just everywhere, all the time. In comparison, there are so few helpful resources, books, podcasts, on this topic. And so that's. That's why I love anytime someone's putting out quality information, sharing some of their story, giving people guidance, because, you know, for those of us that are maybe in this recovery world and trying to help men and women Break free. We might feel like, well, there's, man, there's a lot of us doing it. But that's because a lot of us know each other, and we probably know, like, a good percentage of the people actually doing this work. But again, in comparison to the. The challenges that are out there for people really to live porn free, it's just a drop in the bucket. So, man, we hope your book goes crazy, gets into the hands of so many people. And, you know, God bless whatever marketing strategies you're using, because we need more. And we're just exc to get to partner with you on a little bit of an episode today to talk more along these topics. So let's dive in a little more. Matt, in one of your chapters, you identify a phrase that you call self rejection, and you say that self rejection is the enemy of recovery. So can you explain that concept a little bit? That might be new for some. What do you mean by self rejection and what's the connection to recovery?

Well, I think I got that original idea of self rejection from the Catholic priest Henri Nouwen, and he talks a lot about self rejection in his work, this idea of essentially not liking yourself or hating yourself. And he makes a really strong connection between our spiritual identity. And he has this book called Life of the Beloved. And he talks about the real enemy of the truth that we're God's beloved is our own self rejection. It's not accepting that sense of us being loved by God and created by God and being in relationship and connection. And so I kind of have continued to sort of think that a lot of the trouble with even an addiction to porn or even some of the shame that happens sometimes in recovery is essentially self rejection. It's not acknowledging that God loves us and really wants us to thrive and grow and that he has something that's good for us, that we were created in his image. And so many of the guys that I see, and myself included, struggled with a lie that they were unlovable or not good enough, and that perpetuated their escape into porn. And then even if you see guys in recovery, a lot of times guys are still struggling with shame and being honest and beating themselves up after a relapse and not being kind to themselves. And so that's why I really felt like that was the enemy of recovery is when you cannot love yourself, when you can't accept that you're beloved, then you're always going to be drawn to something externally to tell you that you're lovable. And that seems to be One of the big hooks of porn is this idea that, well, I'm going to go to the source to somehow feel better about myself.

Yeah, well, and it's such a great concept and it's such a double edged sword. It's such a double edged sword. Right. Because we're not feeling great about ourselves, we don't like ourselves. And so pornography fantasy provides this world where for a moment of time we feel desired, accepted, wanted, you know, like we're the king of the world. Every woman's dream. But then on the back end of it, it only reinforces those messages of shame that says I'm worthless, I'm not good enough. And so it both takes us into it and then is the outcome of it and it's like, man, what a lose, lose situation. And so I love the way in the book you identify that. And really I think in recovery, taking people to this concept that it's not just stopping the behavior, but it's learning to love yourself as God, as God made you, and finding value and worth in who you are, not in what some artificial world tries to create for you.

Yeah, I'll give you a little exclusive. I'm gonna write a whole next book about self rejection.

Nice.

Because it's such a. It's such a profound challenge. And you know, I said at the beginning that I really appreciated your women's takeover. I see a lot of women struggling with self rejection too.

Yeah, absolutely.

And our partner trauma stuff that we recover. A lot of the wholeness in that is self acceptance and love and self care. So it's such a common thing that affects humans.

I thought as you guys were talking, a friend of ours, Jay Stringer, I heard him say. I've heard him, he's spoken at a couple of our events. He's a part of our sexual integrity one on one video course too. But he said this idea that we seek out behavior that reinforce our own view of ourself. And so if we do hate ourselves and we do think we're unlovable, unworthy, then it's this weird backwards way that we're protecting ourself by pressing deeper into those things that make us feel that way and how hard self compassion is. I mean, you know, I think that that's something that so many of us struggle with, that idea of being kind to your. Because in a lot of ways we've never actually been modeled what it looks like. You know, people haven't been kind to us or we felt wounded or traumatized by other people. But it is kind of a weird, a weird twist there because you don't necessarily think that way. And I remember the first time I heard that, I was like, oh, yeah, I guess that makes total sense. We're just seeking out behavior that reinforce our own perspective of ourself, which then, as you guys have already mentioned, perpetuates that self hatred even more. And that rabbit hole goes very, very deep. As we all know, porn, and you've already talked about this, Matt. Porn can leave us feeling. And there are three things that you identify in your book. Feeling ashamed, helpless and hopeless for you and your own story. And then also as you, you know, kind of unpack these in your book, how do we combat these feelings that really are the things that tend to lead us right back toward using pornography?

Well, I really appreciate this question. One of the main ideas that I try to draw out in the book is one that I've gotten a little in trouble with. People sometimes misunderstand it. I say porn is the solution, not the problem. And what I mean by that is when you're using porn, you're using it for a reason. You're using it to escape, numb, hide, avoid, to avoid pain. And you know, from the inside, you know, the porn user, myself included, this was my story. You know, I really didn't understand why I was doing this. And when I looked externally for help, a lot of the messages I got was, well, this is horrible sin. This is lust. This is a self control issue. This is a brain addiction. Your brain is wired now to this thing. And it just sort of reinforced this idea of hopelessness. Like how could I ever overcome this horrible lust control issue that I have? Or this brain issue that I have all the messages out there, you know, and then throw in some shame too, like, oh, did you know that that's someone's daughter? Or did you know that that's, did you know that that is a, you know, a woman? You know, whatever. I'm trying to think of some of the things I've heard out there. And yeah, I feel horrible, you know, I feel horrible about it. And so what I, what I really feel like is when we treat porn as the exclusive problem, it leads to those sort of conclusions. But if we pivot a little bit and we go, well, let's think of it as a solution, albeit not a good one and one that creates other problems. But if we think of it as a solution, then it's like, well, what am I trying to solve with it? What are the other things that are going on in my life that if for some reason a magic wand came and took porn out of my life, what would still be there? Would it be that I don't feel good enough, or would it be that I hate conflict? Would it be that I'm resentful of my wife? What other things are there worthy of looking at? Because if you can start to look at those things and get some awareness and start to map some habits to fix those things, then the need for porn reduces.

Yeah, that's so good. What I hear you saying, Matt, is it's choosing to focus less on the what and more on the why. You know, it's not the what I do, the behavior, the external things, but it's. It's the deeper drives, the motives, the desires. And I think even in the why, sometimes resources, churches have not helped, because the why we're given is, well, because you're a sinner and because you're fallen. And. And while that's true, it's like, well, there's actually more to it than just that I'm a sinner. It's. It's. I'm trying to meet a need or answer a question or feel valued. And when we can, the why that's driving us, you know, what you're saying is you can understand better solutions, you can work towards better outcomes, because the why, as our friend Ben Bennett says, is rooted in very legitimate needs. And the pornography has just become a very illegitimate way to meet those legitimate needs. And so rather than ignoring legitimate needs, we need to dive into them and allow God to help us find better solutions.

Well, and I think, too, that one of the things I would agree with is when you use the word addiction, it usually means that you're going to a behavior compulsively to meet multiple needs. And one of the reasons why it starts to look like an addiction is because it's the thing we're going to. For multiple feelings. We could be feeling insecure at work, so we use porn. We could feel angry about a situation in our marriage. We use porn. We feel bored, we use porn. It's all those. And how many times are you feeling those things during a week? And that starts to look like addiction, where it's like, well, every time I feel this feeling, this negative feeling I use. And so part of the whole. Part of what I talk about in the book, and I love, like Jay Stringer talks about being curious about why we're using and why we're going to this behavior, what we're being drawn to, part of the excitement about real recovery is Going, well, how can I transform some of these needs and even handle these situations differently and start to figure out, well, what do I need when I get angry? What do I need when I feel insecure? What do I need when I'm bored to really solve that problem?

Yeah, that's such a man. Something that just is coming up for me right now is growing up in the church, you're. There's this message you tend to maybe interpret. I don't even know if it's outright said, but that caring for yourself is somehow selfish or wrong. You know, the idea, you know, and I've heard this a lot working at pure desire. I've heard this from other people as well. The whole command of love your neighbor as yourself, that little, like, tag on the end, you know, knowing that self care and self love. I think of, you know, the passages in, like Ephesians 5, you know, husbands first, Peter, talking about husbands loving your wives as they love their own bodies. This idea that there is an element of how I care for myself should inform how I care for other people. But we hear this message that self care is wrong. And I think that that's just another thing that doubles down the shame. Like I have these feelings. I don't know how to meet these with a legitimate solution. Something that's maybe less damaging or hurtful to me and other people. And so because I can't find that, I just go to something that's easy and maybe more anonymous. That being pornography.

That's one of the reasons I don't like the battle imagery, because I'm like, wow, if the battle is all external and it's all sort of my fight, what do I do when I have these powerful internal needs? Am I. Are my needs the enemy? Yeah, because I don't want to use porn. So if I have these uncomfortable needs, well, that must be the problem, right? Just don't feel anything, don't have needs.

It's a good point to keep clear on what the battle is and what it's not that we don't want to be battling against ourselves, but I think there is room for some of that language. But, yeah, it gets easily misapplied. So, Matt, one of the things I think is common in some of that battle language is really the concept willpower. That if I'm feeling tempted to look at porn, it's late at night, I'm up alone, I'm on my computer, on my phone, that the key to victory is just having the willpower to say, no, get up and walk away. Why is that not necessarily an effective recovery strategy? And what does it look like to have an effective plan for dealing with pornography?

I feel like I get asked this question all the time. Maybe you guys get asked this question. You're like, yeah, Matt, I like all this stuff you say about self care and taking care of your needs. But what about, how can I just say no at the computer at 11 o' clock at night on Friday? And what I say is that being porn free is usually a byproduct. Well, it always is a byproduct of your recovery process. It's not necessarily a one stand against temptation. It's an ongoing commitment to transforming your habits. And so part of the loneliness and isolation that you feel, say late at night in front of the computer, the way that gets fixed is through connection and through ongoing relationships. I'll tell you a really simple example for me. When I got in recovery, I went to a group. And then when I got a little freedom, I started getting a vision for doing a local group, you know, similar to, you know, I know you guys host Pure Desire groups in the church. So I was the leader of my group and we call, my group is called Living Waters. And I noticed this really interesting thing once I started Living Waters. We'd meet on Monday night. Well, every once in a while, Friday or Saturday night, I'd feel tempted. I'd even be drawn to the computer. And then I would remember, hey, you're a part of Community, you're a part of Living Waters. Monday night you're gonna be up in front of people talking.

That's right.

Do you want to come to Living Waters with sort of this, you know, I hate to use the word failure, but this sort of like setback. And I sometimes would be able to make a good choice right then. Cause I was like so connected to my group. And so, I mean, that's an example of what made me be able to handle that situation wasn't willpower. It wasn't even in the moment making the right decision. It was more this connectedness that went, that kept me connected. I didn't feel alone on Saturday night. I actually felt like I was connected and accountable to other people. And I think as you start to take care of yourself, your habits are getting met in more powerful ways. You're more connected to people. Some of the needs start to dissipate now. There's still moments where you need a plan for temptation. Even now I don't think I'm right now. I could go turn on my tv, my smart tv. And maybe see something new, inappropriate. Well, knowing myself, this is not particularly a challenging time for me. But, you know, I have a. I have a habit where I go to bed with my wife. If it was 11 o' clock right now and I'm bored, you know, that smart TV would be a real challenge for me.

Totally.

So that habit keeps me, you know, that that plant planning for that helps me.

Right.

But, you know, and if there was a problem with it right now, I would have to create a different habit, I think. I don't know if that answers the question.

No, totally. It totally does. I think, you know, one of the things that we've already mentioned is that if pornography is just the solution, it's not the entirety of the problem. Once we understand that, we're able to see that the problem itself is a. Is a holistic experience, meaning something at work hurt my feelings, which, you know, made me feel a certain way, which triggered me something I experienced when I was a kid. And for me, I maybe went to a friend and I asked for help or I started a conversation with someone, but then in that I felt rejected as well, or that conversation didn't go as well as I wanted it to. And then maybe a couple other things tend to just kind of cut me down throughout the day. That guy cut me off. Of course it's a guy, because it's never a girl who cuts me off on the road. And I get really upset. And then I swear, and then I feel bad because I swore and then I go home and I like, you know, chirp at my wife or kids, like, this is how kind of a day can kind of cut you down. So that by the time I get to 11 o' clock in front of a computer, I have a lot of things pushing me. That momentum has started in that direction. So if we know that acting out with pornography is a solution and almost the end of those wounds, that kind of day that I've had, then we know that recovery looks very similar, that it is. What am I doing to address my wounds and the trauma I've experienced? What am I doing to make healthy connections? How am I implementing a way for me to share my emotions, whether it's journaling or praying or meeting with a therapist or something like that, Then you understand that it's not just recovery is sitting there at 11 o' clock being like, I can do this. The recovery work is actually knowing that you shouldn't put yourself at 11 o' clock in front of a computer because of the types of days that we Have. So I think it just creates. If we know the problem is more holistic, then we also can understand that the recovery plan should also be more holistic.

Yeah, I'm a big fan of tools and pre commitments too. I think sometimes Christian guys like us can fall prey to this idea that, well, if I have to use a tool, then I'm not free. Right. If I have to pre commit or use a filter or if I have to do this, then I'm not free. I remember one guy once, you know, in one of my groups kind of, kind of threw that out there. He goes, well, you don't sound like you're very free. You got all these, like, boundaries and restrictions and rules. And I go, yeah, but those are the things that keep me free. Like, and I see them as safety, not deprivation, or I see them as just. I see them as pre commitments. I'm choosing to have a filter on my computer that's active, that's not passive.

Yep.

I'm choosing to go to bed with my wife. That's active. I'm. I'm not. That doesn't keep me porn free, but that, that helps me. That helps keep the boundaries for me. And, and that process helps me.

Yeah.

So good. I'm taking ownership.

Absolutely.

Well, hey, let's. Let's pivot the conversation a little bit. You know, pure desire. I mean, you guys are known for groups and creating these powerful groups and, and I know over the last couple years, you guys have created a lot more online opportunities and things like that. I'd love to ask a question that I quote in the book, the Johann Hari quote. The opposite of addiction is not sobriety, it's connection. Would you guys agree with that?

Yeah, I think, absolutely. It's really pointing out something that Dr. Ted Roberts says in Seven Pillars of Freedom when he talks about addiction being an intimacy and attachment disorder, that because we don't know how to have truly connected relationships with God's self and others, pornography and other forms of acting out sexually become the substitute for that. And so if all we do is remove pornography from our lives, and that would be the definition of sobriety, we've maybe accomplished something, but we've not really made progress towards health. I think of a blog that our producer Justin wrote earlier this year where he talks about making space for recovery. Because the reality is we're already making space for addiction. And if in our lives we just remove the space we've made for addiction and we get it out of there, that space remains. And the question is kind of like well, what will fill that space instead? And we've seen it so often that if someone is only focused on sobriety, maybe they find sobriety from porn, but now they're becoming a workaholic or they're an exercise aholic, or they're getting into food or other kind of behaviors that are just numbing the same pain that are what they go to instead of having deep connection with God's self and others. And so I think what we're trying to look at is connection is a definition of health. When I'm connected with God, self and others, my need for those coping behaviors is no longer there. Because at the end of the day, what I really need is relationships. What I really need is connection. What I really need is to find my identity and belonging in those things. And when that's the case, not only am I free from pornography, but I'm moving towards health and, and towards long term change, which is something we've talked a lot about at pure desire that we're not here to stop a behavior, we're here to change the way you do life. And I think connection is really a great phrase for what all of us are truly after at a deep level.

And I've heard you say this before and I don't know if it came from Dr. Ted or from you. And so I'm just going to let you decide who I should attribute to originally. But the idea that God's love is experienced practically on a horizontal level, that through relationship with other people, God also extends his love toward us. That when we're in a group of other people who know our deepest faults and our wounds and the lies we believe and our biggest struggles yet are like, hey bro, welcome, glad to see you. Like, let's go hang out, let's get a drink, let's go on a walk, let's go play golf, whatever. Like I want to be in relationship with you. Even though you have these struggles and they might be struggles that that other person has too, but there's just this camaraderie and, and relationship that for me, I remember when I first heard that was such an eye opener. That's like, you know what, that's so true that you know, as the church, as the hands and feet or the body of Christ, we get to extend that love to other people. And that happens very practically at a group level. And so when addiction is something that leads you to isolation and running away from life, relationship and connection is actually what pushes you more toward relationship, toward life. And I think it's the life that God intended us to live.

Yeah, I totally agree. You know, it's interesting. I just. There was a quote. It's on my other computer. I can't grab it. One of the guys in our groups the other day said, you know, I can't. What I'm realizing is I can't. I'm never going to go back to that old way of living. I have to just accept that there's this new way of life, and it's interconnected, it's integrated. Because the whole way that the addiction thrived and took over was in that isolation from others. And so I think sometimes foolishly, we think, well, we're going to somehow recover by reading a book or subscribing to an awesome podcast like Pure Desire.

Oh, that does help, for sure.

And that's gonna be good enough to move the needle. But the interesting thing is we're essentially using the same strategy we had in our porn. You know, we're gonna be secretive about it. We're gonna hide, and we're gonna isolate. We're somehow gonna try to recover using the same playbook, which just does not work. So for me, it was so important to be known. I never realized how alone I felt and how isolated I felt. And porn just went along with that. Porn just sort of tried to satiate that feeling. So a lot of recovery for me was coming out of the darkness, coming out of the CS Lewis calls it the dark little prison that we're born into and meaningfully connecting with my wife, with God, with others, that was part of the whole road to integrity. For me. That word integrity, we use a lot in the church, and it's kind of synonymous with sort of a character trait. Like that guy's just integrity. He was born with integrity. But integrity is really this idea of there's wholeness, there's intactness. And so when we live a hidden life, when we live a divided life, we're not intact. There's this discord. And so wholeness and recovery is that. That coming together. And that's so important for me. You know, for me, one of my whys is to be the same on the inside as on the outside. And what I mean by that is I want you guys to see me for who I really am, not for what I'm presenting. And meanwhile, in secret, I have this other hidden life with. With addiction and wounds and needs that are going unseen.

Yeah, it's interesting. One of the. I think there was some. I was just sharing at some Bible study or some young adults group at church at one point, and I just had this idea and I can't remember. I feel like I heard it from a friend of mine or pastor friend of mine. That the idea that unless I share my burden, you can't bear my burden. And we have those passages in scripture that talk about bearing each other's burdens. And, you know, I've. It's funny, I. I did actually, I did this at a youth event here for Pure Desire. The idea of there are guys actually who do like a deadlift, and they do it together. The weight is so much that they have two people that are trying to do it. And it's the idea of trying to lift that solo by yourself is what it's like when you. You aren't sharing what's going on in your life, that you're not sharing the burdens, the wounds that you have, the emotions you're feeling. And that idea that there are so many people out there who are willing to bear that burden with you and help you on your road to healing, recovery. Being someone who is integrated, has integrity. But we're stiff arming those people. We're not allowing them or giving them the opportunity to do that by us keeping it to ourselves. And that's what's so great about the group experience, is it facilitates. It gives you literally every week an opportunity to invite other people to share the burdens that you're bearing as well. And then you also get to do that for other people. It's a beautiful thing.

Hey, one of the things I know about you guys is a lot of your Pure Desire leaders have their own recovery stories, you guys included. What role do you think helping others has in continued freedom and recovery?

You know, I think for a lot of us, it starts out as realizing what God has done for me or the freedom I have found is too good to keep for myself. And we know the world we live in. We know the kind of things that men and women are struggling with. And we feel like if I've discovered some hope, something that's working, I need to tell people. And so for many, many people, that means helping lead others in a group, walking them through that process, just as a way to pay it forward. But I think even beyond that, there is something. And I think most people have experienced this maybe in other worlds or areas where it's one thing to learn something and be a student of it. It's another thing when you're asked to teach it. Like if I go to the Bible study and I learn about First Peter, chapter one, that's great. But if I've been asked to teach on First Peter, Chapter one, my level of engagement with the text goes way, way up. Because now I'm engaged in a way that if I'm just the listener and receiver, I didn't engage. And that's one of the reasons I encourage every person in group to consider leadership. Not just because I want them to pay it back, but because I know what it will do for them, that when they look at a lesson or a chapter and they have to be responsible in our groups, they're not teaching, so that's a little bit different. But they're going to be guiding the group, facilitating the conversation. It just takes it to another level in our own understanding. And then as we hear people answer questions and give feedback, there's a part of us like, oh, yeah, I remember what that felt like. And I think for me, it's always that powerful reminder to stay connected to my healing and to stay connected to my story. Because, like, for me being 12 years into this process, it can be easy to have parts of me like, well, let's just move on. And I am living in a different way now. I'm not the same person, but I feel like if I lose sight with what it was like to be in year one of recovery, I'm going to somehow miss out on that. And so I just. I love being in that environment where I'm often reminded of what is it like to break free and how can I continue to leverage what God has done for me to be a blessing to others. And so I think those are, to me, the two main sides of it. That it's a way that we pay it back, but even more, it's a way that our healing continues to go to another level.

Yep. I think two passages, Scripture just popped into my head. Two Corinthians, one, the idea that as God comforts us in our afflictions, we also can comfort others. I've explored this a little bit in some of my writing, that it's almost the superpower that God gives us, that it's something that's been supercharged because of our experience. It's an area we can help other people. But then I was in Acts 20 this morning, and Paul was saying, you should remember the words of the Lord Jesus, it is more blessed to give than to receive. And I was thinking about that. Just that that idea of giving that hope back to somebody is. It's invigorating. It's exciting. It is. There's so much hope. I Remember one of the first times I ever preached the gospel to someone and they got saved? I was on a high for weeks. It was just like, oh, my gosh, this is unbelievable. And I've had the same experience when it comes to group. When you see someone make that connection in group and it unlocks this new level of healing for them, and it creates not only sobriety, but you see, like, longevity for their recovery, taking off. Those are amazing moments. And so it's cool that God equips us not only with the spiritual gifts but the experiences that we have in life to also minister to people and that we get a blessing when we also help people on their journey.

I love a couple of ideas related to this. I used to, you know, when I ran the group at church, sometimes people would say, hey, Matt, I come in on Monday, I might see someone I know. I feel a little ashamed coming in this group. Someone might be wondering why I come to this group. And I go, well, first of all, it's nobody's business why you're coming in this group. Second of all, if you are worried about it, just tell them you're a leader in training. Because I think everyone here is a leader, is called to be a leader. And. And there's. Everyone has something to give. And so if you really want to just cut down the conversation, if you don't want to go into your story, just say, hey, I really have a heart for this ministry and I'm getting trained to be a leader. And how do we train to be a leader in this? Work? Well, through transformation, through our own growth. And not only that, but I love a quote that I got from Nate Larkin from the Pirate Monks. He says, I think I put this in the book. You know, every man needs help and every man has help to give. Yep. And obviously not every man. It's not, you know, this. That applies to all community, women and men. But what I love about that is, you know, even a guy who's early in recovery, a week in, two weeks in, can make a phone call. And that's going to help whoever answers the phone. Even if it's a guy who's been doing it for a year, a couple years, that kind of connection helps, you know, and when you have groups, obviously, you know, back when we used to do groups and live groups, or when I, you know, the new guy could set up chairs, the new guy could welcome people. There are all sorts of things that even someone a couple weeks in can actually give back. And that actually makes us feel like we have Meaning and value. And back to our discussion at the beginning about being beloved and, and feeling like we have worth and not discounting ourselves, you know, that's so powerful. And where else do we get to experience that? You know, especially if we've been isolated in addiction, where do we feel worth? That's one of the reasons why I don't think we can recover in secret or recover by ourselves is because how do we replace that deprivation where we don't feel good enough or we don't feel worth? How do we get that outside of relationship? It's a relational need. Yep.

Yeah. Yeah, we've been talking a lot today. I mean, it seems like a lot of these questions come back to this idea of what's my why? Where is my value, worth and identity coming from? How do I learn to see myself differently? And so, Matt, in your book, as people begin to break free from some of those sexual patterns, you talk about how important it is that they feel seen and known for who they truly are. And you identify three benefits to being known. So can you walk us through what are the benefits to being known and why are they so helpful for us that.

For me, I'm just going to answer it with the one, the no more height. Yep. Sometimes people would ask me, you know, and sometimes, you know, I got to. I got to 11 years porn free in January, and I'd had some runs prior to that 11 years, but had a slip traveling. And people sometimes ask, well, what's the biggest benefit to being porn free? Right. Did it change all your relationships? Did it transform all these other areas of your life? The most tangible thing I can remember, even at the beginning, was not hiding anymore. I remember going to church and our church does a communion every week. And communion to me was synonymous with porn failure. You know, like, oh, Jesus, here's what I did again. Oh my gosh. And I always felt like it was hiding. I was like a second class citizen, second class Christian at church. And I remember one time I walked into church and I just felt this lightness, like my wife knows everything. God knows everything. I'm accountable to people in my life. My life is open, it's integrated, it's whole. And then I just, you know, communion started. And I remembered a time when I got upset with my wife and kind of was short with her. And I realized, oh my gosh, is that the sin of pride? I don't think I've been convicted of this in about 20 years because porn was like, you know, so it was like I realized I'm not hiding. There were even times where I would feel shame. Like I would have an erotic dream or something and I'd feel all this shame. Like the old days, like I had just acted out. Then I'd wake up and I'd go, wait, I'm not hiding. I didn't do anything. I can even check this in and I don't have to be ashamed. I don't have to hide. I told my wife, oh, I had this really weird thing, dream, it was kind of weird and this happened and just check it in and I don't have to hide.

Yeah, it is almost like a muscle that you develop over time. When you live with transparency, vulnerability, you're being open and honest. It takes a while to develop that, especially on the front end of recovery. But it's one of those things that you can very easily slip into those smaller things. Like, well, you know, I did watch that thing at lunch today. I guess I won't tell anybody. I don't need to tell my group. And if I don't tell my group, then I probably won't tell my wife. You know, like it's one of those things where you still have to keep it ongoing. But what I've realized and the reason why I I talk about it being a muscle is the more often that you work out or nick, you like to run, the more often you run, the easier those runs are going to be. But if you take a couple weeks off and then start it again, you're going to be huffing. And well, I don't know if you huff and puff anymore when you run because I feel like you run all the time like crazy. But you get to that point where it's like, oh, you know what, I've taken some time off of this. And so I think there's an importance there that yes, there's no more hiding. We can be open and honest, but that's something that we have to continue to keep doing. It can't just be okay, I'm going to take a break for two weeks and then come back.

I love that idea of practicing honesty. You know, we got really good at the habit of hiding and being dishonest. And so it makes sense that 100% rigor, sometimes you go to a 12 step group, they talk about rigorous honesty. That's not something that you just snap your fingers and get good at. It takes practice. That's one of the reasons I love weekly groups is like, you know, or even more, more frequent groups because you need the practice, especially in the early Days of showing up and being honest. And sometimes when a guy checks in a relapse, we all don't want to hear a relapse. You know, we want. You know, we want success and we want all the best. But sometimes a really honest check in about a relapse can be more powerful than a clean week. That was, you know, where nominal recovery activities happen. Because the practice of actually being honest and owning a setback or owning some unskilled behavior, really helpful. You know, it can be really helpful to the long term.

Yeah. The phrase that comes to mind for me is who I am is enough. That that's the process of healing. To discover that who I am without performance, without trying to hide those negative parts of me and act like I'm something I'm better or that I'm not in order to get people to like me. I mean, that is a. It's a draining, difficult way to live. And if that freedom you're talking about in the Communion story, I think is what we're after to realize in any situation that I walk into, whether it's just with my wife or my kids or some kind of important business meeting, this confidence that comes from knowing who I am is enough. I don't have to act or pretend or hide. And. And that doesn't mean, and we say this a lot. It doesn't mean everyone needs to know everything about my life, but there's this internal sense that I'm known and with those that truly know me, I'm loved and accepted. And that really impacts life everywhere we go. So, Matt, talk a little bit more about that, because you mentioned this, that people are always asking about how it changed your relationships, and so unpack that a little bit. As you look back at 11 years of recovery now being porn free, how have your relationships changed? How do you see relationships happening in your life differently than back when you were not porn free?

You know, the first thing that comes to mind is I've had more powerful relationships with women in my life for many years. You know, I would fantasize or even just go to sort of fantasy a lot of times with people in my life, women in my life. And since I got in recovery and then ran my group, I realized, boy, there's this whole group of people that I've never fantasized about and never had that sort of dual relationship with where it's like, in one way, I'm showing up leading or helping or being their friend, and then in my fantasy world, sort of of objectifying them. That's One, I mean, that's a really simple one. But for my wife, I think one of the big things was just really getting deeper to our needs. In the first couple years of marriage, actually when I was struggling, my wife had a really hard time with her work. She was in ministry. And we told ourselves a story that I was kind of the strong one in the relationship and she was the one who was needy. Well, I was kind of strong because I was like, you know, trying to take care of myself with porn so I could show up for her and deal with some of her stuff. And that was not true. I needed her just as much as she needed me. And there were real deep needs that I had in wounds that. That needed to be seen. And so a lot of balance came into our relationship after recovery. It took a while because for a while the pendulum swung the other way. I was the messed up, broken one, going to group and trying to figure everything out and lying and hiding and still messy. But at some point, the equilibrium kind of landed, you know, and, you know, you made a comment about me being on the COVID of this book, but, you know, it has been an interesting journey for me to just go, yeah, this was part of my story. And I have old co workers congratulating me for my old job, you know, and people, you know, my hair stylist and just random people in my life. You know, the guy who, you know, I told you about this right before we logged on, you know, there was a guy who sold me chairs from Craigslist for my office and saw the book on the table and went. And as he drove home, he bought it on Amazon. And so it's kind of cool in some ways to just go, yeah, this is part of my story and it is what it is. My kids did ask me to take their name off of Amazon in my author bio. Their names were there. And one of my sons has kind of a unique spelling for his name and he did not want his friends Googling him and seeing my picture. Although it's really hard to have the last name Dobschutes and not have my.

Wait, is this your dad?

Seriously?

One of. One of my friend. One of the kids, friends this is a couple years ago, said, hey, I think your dad's famous.

That's awesome.

Sort of funny.

That's cool. Well, Matt, I enjoyed your book. I know a lot of people are going to enjoy your book. Your book, porn. Becoming the type of man who does not look at porn. Where can people get their copy? Where can people buy this resource? And Start diving into their story and their recovery.

Well, we took a lot of time to make sure this was available globally. So it is available in booksellers around the world. So if you have an online bookseller that you use in your country, start there, search for dopshoots. D O B S C H U E T Z Porn free comes up with other results. You might want to say.

Don'T type free pocket porn.

Yeah, yeah. It's good to start at the bookseller site though.

Yeah, that's right.

For sure.

But, but just an announcement. I mean I know you guys are. We're gonna probably launch this in later in the spring, but one of the cool things that happened in the last couple weeks is we just put it on Audible and Apple, Apple itunes or Apple Music.

Awesome.

So you can actually get the, the audiobook.

That's awesome.

And so it's full circle. I, I started a podcast and now have created an audiobook. So it's kind of fun to, to have all those formats, you know, out there. And it's in, it's in hardcover too. And we made a hardcover for one reason. The dust jacket comes off and you can just carry it around you. I'm showing these guys he's carried around as a blue book.

This is my journal.

Yeah, that's right. That's awesome.

So some guys, if you really need the, if you really need the anonymity, the low profile book, just go ahead and get that hardcover.

Yeah, or just buy the audiobook. Look, we will have the links to this book on the show. Notes for today in a porn free. Becoming the type of man who does not look at pornography. Matt, we appreciate you man. We appreciate the conversations we've had. We appreciate the work that you've put into this book. And you know, from our conversation today, just understanding how important connection is how important. Understanding the reasons why or the pain behind the behavior that we have and then knowing our why, just so important to recovery. So thanks man for your time. Thanks for writing this book and being with us today.

Well, thanks for your work too. And guys, you know we're going to release this as a porn free radio episode too. And I'm going to definitely have all the links to Pure Desire and you really want to check out. They have a whole host of online groups now that are available where you can sign up. They're fee based but they're, they're reasonably priced and there's a lot of really cool groups that you can get into. And so I'm going to have the links to that. These guys. I mean, Nick's got a great book out there on Amazon too, too. And this is just a really good podcast. So hit subscribe if you're listening right now to the Pure Desire podcast and then look for the show notes. I don't know what episode this is going to be for me, but look at the episode right now in your player and I'll have the show notes and all the links to Pure Desire.

That's awesome.

Awesome. Yeah, we appreciate it, Matt.

Yeah, appreciate it.

Appreciate what you're doing.

Thanks, guys.

And wherever you're at on your journey, Pure Desire is here to help create a roadmap for your healing. If you or someone you know is impacted by sexual brokenness or betrayal trauma, go to PureDesire.org and let's start the healing journey today. Don't forget to subscribe to the podcast. Each week we put out new content to help you on the road to healing and freedom. And lastly, never stop being healthy.