248 - Performance Wounds w/ Stephen Thomas

You're listening to the Pure Desire Podcast, your safe place to find hope, healing, and freedom from sexual addiction, betrayal, and relationship issues. Hello.

Hello.

I'm your host, Trevor Windsor, and you're listening to episode 248 of the Pure Desire podcast. Here, joining me as always, my co host, Nick Stumbo.

He shoots, he scores.

I feel like. Did you grow up listening to, like, Chris Berman and all those guys who just like fumbling, bumbling, stumbling?

Yeah. Chris Berman, Marv Albert. I'm thinking of other names, but now I can't remember them.

Bob Costas, Al Michaels, Madden, Pat Summerall. Do you. So I associate him with playoff baseball. But Joe Buck. People, like, hate Joe Buck. And I have never disliked him. I've always thought he was great.

Yeah. I think sometimes it's the older crowd that knew his D. Yeah.

Cause his dad was broadcasting.

I can't remember his first name, but I think if you listen to his dad, there was a style there that then Joe felt just so much more, I don't know, brash or loud. Yeah. I don't necessarily have a particular problem with Joe Buck, but Troy Aikman, on the other hand, drives me crazy. Really? The guy does not stop talking.

Okay.

But anyway, I digress.

Well, no, I'll just say it right now. Bill Walton is the one I cannot stand. I just.

Well, and they put him on just for that reason. He's the character that kind of like. People who like him listen for 10 minutes. People who hate him listen for 15. Right. For all the reasons that they want to point out that they don't like him.

Let's get into why we're talking about broadcaster Skip.

Yes.

Today we had a friend of ours, Stephen Thomas, on the podcast to talk about performance wounds.

Yeah. And how many of us played basketball in the driveway growing up and would say those words. He shoots, he scores. And then, ah, the crowd's going crazy. And, you know, we envision ourselves, whether it's sports, music, grades, you know, popularity, whatever kind of our thing is, and we envision becoming the star or popular or achieving that thing. And for so many of us, the story doesn't play out perfectly. Or maybe if it did one time, the next time it didn't go so well. And the way it can lead to that wounding, that really creates a sense of us not being good enough. It damages our sense of identity. That's really what we talked about today, because I think all of us have that version of our story, maybe just in different arenas of life. So I think it was a very helpful conversation to get Steve Stephen's wisdom on this. And I know you and I were processing some of our own performance wounds, and I hope the listeners will be able to do the same thing.

Good therapy session for us today. A few things before we get to it. Subscribe to the podcast. If you're not subscribed, do it. Don't wait any longer. You can find us on all the major platforms and please give us a review. It helps other people find us and it means a lot to us. You can follow us on social media, Facebook, Twitter, and instagramureduredesirepdmi. And if you consume video content, the full episode for this is up on YouTube. Just search Pure Desire Ministries. Nick we like to circle back every once in a while and just remind people that we invite them to be a part of a team. And that team is called Team 58.

Yeah, you know, I was thinking about how many of us in recovery were asked to kind of count the cost of our addiction and add up the amount of money we had invested in acting out, whether it was actual money or time lost. And, you know, for many, many of us, it's, you know, it's in the hundreds of thousands of dollars of lost time and money and paying for things. And so as we think about our recovery, there's kind of a question here of what if I were willing to pay and invest to that same level in the healing Others? Because when we clicked on images, when we accessed websites, we were contributing to an industry that is really damaging our world. And so Team 58 is an invitation to say, why not be part of the health and recovery of thousands of other people at whatever level you're able to. And so Team 58 is our partnership of people who are monthly donors to Pure Desire and have said, with my finances, I want to be a part of seeing this message grow and reach more people. And it comes out of Isaiah, chapter 58, where the prophet says that our healing will come quickly, and then we will be known as those who rebuild the fallen cities and restore the broken walls. And so for us, it means we're a part of a team that is rebuilding broken lives, restoring broken families. And we get to do this together because there's no one of us that's going to get this job done. But we really believe it will be as thousands upon thousands of people see the need to be a part of the healing movement, that the change can really begin to happen. So jump in. We do some fun stuff. We do some occasional webinars that are exclusive to Team 50. And would really love to have you be on that team with us.

Yeah. So if you want to join team 58, go to PureDesire.org give and help other people find healing and recovery. All right, here's our time with Stephen Thomas on performance wounds. Stephen Thomas, welcome to the Pure Desire podcast, man. Thanks for being with us.

Thank you. Thanks for having me.

Yeah. Steven and I, I think you might have met Nick at another event. I'm not sure, but I remember that we met you. I believe it was Fort Wayne, Indiana, Am I right?

Okay, that's correct.

Okay.

Met me and my wife, we.

Lisa. She's awesome. That was a lot of fun.

Yes.

The worst travel trip we have ever had. The event was great. Meeting you was amazing. The trip sucked. I will. I will never, ever forget how terrible it was.

I remember what you're talking about.

Yes, you do. All I have to say is Delta Airlines stop.

I'm trauma blocking right now. On purpose. I just.

Trauma blocking.

Actually, it's Delta and Detroit in combination is kind of the trigger. So.

Yeah, sorry, Justin. He's born into trouble.

I'm assuming you did this trip in the winter then? If it was that bad.

Yeah, we actually were. Short story. We ended up driving through a snowstorm on Halloween night to get to Fort Wayne, Indiana.

And we need.

Awesome.

We can't keep talking about it. Cause it'll just get out of control. So, Stephen, I mean, there's a reason why we had you on the podcast and we wanted to talk through performance wounds that we have. But before we get into those questions, we just kind of fill our listeners in backstory who you are, are a little bit of your story and what you're doing now.

Yeah. So I grew up in a Christian family and even so, I was exposed to pornography at age 7. It was offered to me and I said yes. And as I've even reflected backwards before age 7, why I was willing to say yes, I realized I had lots of sexual exposure even before then, just from being able to being allowed to watch tv, kind of unmonitored. And that developed into a, you know, a huge struggle that was full of shame, became a regular part of life, meaning using pornography. And then in my teenage years, I began to struggle with same sex attraction. And that became a major focus of my struggle. And I struggled with that for about 12 years and really experienced breakthrough my early 20s when, you know, I was getting some help and really some God moments where I had an opportunity to not hide anymore. So really living a life without secrets and choosing Vulnerability became my ticket into sobriety. And I've had freedom from porn for over 13 years now, praise God. I've been. Yeah, I've been married for 12 of those years. And I will quickly say, too, I've learned that recovery is sobriety is part of it. But it's more than that, because even though I was not using porn, my marriage still sucked. At first, I didn't know how to emotionally relate and connect and do conflict well. As a porn user, I was really great at escaping conflict. So now I had to stay in and learn and get to the other side of repair. And instead of doing those things, I just would dismiss her and, you know, blame her. I'm like, go find another husband who doesn't struggle with porn, you know, and. And all that. To say, five years in, she wanted to marry me. So the other part of my recovery. I'm sorry, she wanted to divorce me to unmarry you? Yeah, yeah, she already had. So the other part of my recovery journey was repairing my marriage and developing that. And we have a marriage we do love. And for the last five years, I've been helping guys in both overcoming porn and marriage work. I started as a pure, desired leader and was leading Conquer series and seven pillars and recognized this was a life calling. And then about a year and a half ago, I started connecting with husband material and became their first certified coach and used that as an inroad to launch my own business, which I launched last August, which was Steven Thomas Consulting, which focuses on helping people outgrow their unwanted sexual behaviors and attractions and repair their marriages.

So, Stephen, today we want to dive into a topic that I think really impacts a lot of people in recovery and maybe doesn't get talked about enough. But that's just how so much when we were in our struggles in addiction, battling with unwanted things, that a lot of it was, the way we would deal with it is through performing. Well, through trying to impress people, you know, put our best foot forward and often in a realm like sports, to try to find achievement and accomplishment that would kind of COVID over maybe this other part of our life. And so we want to dive into that, this idea of performance wounds. And so let's define that for our listeners. What is a performance wound and where might we experience it?

Sure.

So I define a performance wound as an emotional wounding that occurs when we have tied our identity to success in a defined area. It can happen, really, almost anywhere. But I think that it mainly occurs in our developmental stages and then manifests throughout our life. So it Happens to me, the most in families, but also could happen in church and in school. I think those are arenas that we are in as we are growing up. So those are really key areas. But like I said, it can happen. You know, the. I think the world is wired for performance, so it can happen at work, it can happen with friends. But to me, that's sort of the expression of something that already exists.

Yeah. I mean, I feel like growing up as someone who also had a creative side, like something that you do. You know, I think about all the things we used to do when we were kids. We'd put on plays or we'd write stories, or we'd write songs, and we'd want to play them in front of our families. And at some point in life, those, like, stopped. We're like, wow, I don't really want to do those anymore. And it's usually because there was some sort of wounding, you know, whether it was some talent show or, you know, I remember we had talent shows with our, you know, group of, like, 15 cousins we had growing up. It was like, we would have those at Christmas. And you can absolutely experience a performance wound there. If you are looking for a certain response or reaction to what you did and you didn't get it, that's a very easy way to get wounds. I mean, we already talked about sports, too. That's a huge place for me.

Yeah. I think of the number of people that I've done group with or talked to at events that, I mean, I would say, like, 99% of them have some version of I'm not enough that plays in their psyche as part of their struggle. I don't measure up. I don't have what it takes. And I think a lot of that gets rooted in our souls because of performance wounds. That. Whether it was sports, school, music, whatever we were into, Something occurred with a coach, a parent, a friend, a classmate that that message got lodged in our thinking. You're not good enough. You don't have what it takes. And it really becomes a big part of the pull into pornography and unwanted behaviors, because that area becomes the quick solution to feeling like, I am enough. And so I think it's so important that we can unpack. Where do those performance wounds come from? What are their messages? And by the end of this, really giving some direction for how do we overcome them?

Yeah, absolutely.

Yeah, I would say. I mean, if you think of it, if you're in a family where sports is a big deal and you're the kid that, you know, maybe isn't as gifted in sports. If your parents do not know how to see and find your. What you bring, like, what are your giftings and acknowledge them and celebrate them, you'll have this performance room. You know, and we're actually designed as children to be celebrated. You know, like you said, you're writing a play or doing a talent show. Like, it's when your kids come up to you with that picture that scribbles and they're like, look what I did, dad. And they're looking to be celebrated and see, like, that they have value. And what can happen is, you know, the truth is God uses our kids to challenge us as parents in our own growth. So, you know, I'm wired a certain way, but my kids might have giftings in other areas, and I need to grow and see what that is and call that out in them and speak to their identity and help them even navigate, you know, that they're a gift to our family from God. What they bring to the table is celebrated so that they can untie themselves from even, you know, the developmental process of needing to be first place all the time.

Right.

Or.

Or yeah. Or if they're not good at something, they at least know, hey, well, I'm good at other things. You know, it's not a big deal. We all have something that we thrive in.

Yeah.

So that's. Go ahead.

I just, I. We were quoting it this last weekend when we were out of town, but, you know, from Talladega Nights, when Ricky Bobby's dad comes in the classroom and he's like, dad, you told me if you ain't first, you're last. And he goes, no, you could be first, you could be second, you could be third, you can even be fourth. Like, but that idea that we're taught that only if you win or you're the best, that you have value. But in reality, like, second, third, and fourth, like, that's still a lot better than a lot of other people. You still have that gift or that value 100%. So what is it about performance wounds that are so uniquely harmful? Like, you know, it's not something we can necessarily avoid in life. We'll be put in situations where we are required or we have a desire to perform, but when we are in those situations and things go south, why is it so damaging?

Well, again, if the security isn't there, that you know your value and you know your worth, I mean, the issue is that a performance wound is going to be tied to identity, and it's going to create questions of am I good enough? Am I valuable? Do people like or enjoy being around me? It's around acceptance and knowing our worth. And it can turn if it's left unaddressed, if it's left unparented, really, it can turn shame based where it will turn into like a self sentencing of something is wrong with me. You know, you already talked about sports. There's lots of guys who have the story of maybe they didn't thrive in sports and don't feel like they belong as a guy and feel like they were dealt a worse hand of cards in the masculinity department because actually culturally lots of guys determine how man you are by your, you know, athletic prowess and. But there's so much more to us than that.

Yeah, I absolutely agree. I was thinking about. It really comes down to where are we seeking to find our identity. And so like for me, just like you were saying, Stephen, I put so many eggs in that sports basket to find my identity versus I was also involved like in high school in theater stuff, music stuff, youth group stuff. And I actually excelled in a lot of those places. But it didn't mean to me personally nearly as much as my desire to be successful as an athlete, basketball and football. And so when I had failures in those arenas, that's where the performance wounds came. That said to me, I'll never be enough. I don't measure up. I mean, where meanwhile I'm getting awards for vocal stuff and things are great over there. It was like, yeah, yeah, whatever, because I'd put my eggs in that sports basket. And I think that's what it comes down to is looking at what am I pursuing for my identity. And if things go sideways there or I've got a message there of being a failure, it really, it's not just the failure itself, it's the way it attacks my sense of identity and value and worth. So I'm totally with you there.

Yeah, I would say identity and worth as a man too. And again, to me it's a charge as fathers to when your kid is thriving in vocal performance or something else to recognize and call out and affirm how like these other areas of thriving they are, they're actually carrying, you know, a masculine expression of who God is in those arenas. It's not just sports, it's not just physicality. And I think the wounding is so sensitive because as guys we want to be strong, we want to see that, but it actually appears in other areas and we need to do the work to see that and grow ourselves that we're confident enough as fathers, you know, to, like, be able to pass that confidence to our sons and daughters. You know, this is beyond just for guys. We're talking about some guys issues, but for women, too.

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I know my wife has some sports wounds that she carries as well. You know, being in big situations or spots where she missed a shot or wasn't given an opportunity or even some of the stuff that coaches say to you, those can be really damaging as well. Something specific to this question that came to mind for me is, you know, for me, sports growing up, that was the thing. Like, I was usually the best player on my team. And I got tons of affirmation in sports where I didn't get a lot in other areas. And so for me, it's easy for identity, you know, to be found there. But there's this interesting thing where, you know, I have this story. One of my top 10 is I am. I think I'm like 11 or 12, and I'm playing shortstop and I run and I make this, like, Willie Mays catch over the shoulder. And as I'm running out to make this catch, I pass the left fielder. And so I have this moment where, like, my teammate didn't make the right call. He's supposed to call me off. I'm not supposed to be running out into the outfield to make this catch. But it's also one of these. It's probably one of the biggest highlights of my sports career. But when I walked into the dugout, just, I'm on cloud, you know, 13. I'm so pumped to make this catch. I hear parents saying, Trevor's being a ball hog. Which, by the way, if you're a baseball fan, there's no such thing as ball hog. But what I found was something that was. It was in an arena and a sport that I loved so deeply. And it was an experience that was such a high and so fun for me. And yet it was also met with the message, it doesn't matter how good you are or if you make the play, you're not enough. You're always going to be a failure. And so there's this unique combination of something we love and we're good at that is met with this terrible, wounding message that when those fuse together, it has made it uniquely difficult for me in the arena of anything I do is never going to be good enough. Because even when I make the greatest play I've made in my entire career, which is sad, because I was only 12 and I played till I was 23. But at that moment, the greatest thing I'd done in my career is also one of the most wounding moments of my life. And so it's such a. It's just a mess. It's a messy situation.

Yeah, that's a tough story. And it. It's sad because, yeah, you made this great play. And. And then it's like, I would feel that scene, you know, it's like you want to celebrate. You made the change, you know, and now you're being told kind of you did something wrong. And I. You're going to hear me probably tie the conversation back to a concept. But. But again, I just. I want to speak of the role of parenting here because, you know, a parent to a youth, to a child, as a voice of authority, you know, so when a kid grows up, they hear the parents say something and they believe it. Oh, dad says that that's what it is, and that's the power of what a parent can do to help. So even when our parents come in attuned, and I don't know, obviously, if they did this or not, but, like, if they attune to you in a moment and be like, hey, that was a great catch. And you know what? Like, if they help you navigate and help you see and feel celebrated in that moment, that can be so much more. So much for this kind of wounding. And I've already seen it in my own walk as a parent with my own kids, and. Yeah. So I just have to say, bring up parenting and the power of it in this arena right here.

Yeah, absolutely.

Yeah. God. I think as parents, he's really given us influence in the lives of our kids, even when we think they're not listening. Our ability to speak, value, worth and identity to them, or in a sense, take it from them, is super, super powerful. So it's humbling for us as parents to realize that because we're just normal people that have our low moments and probably all have said things we regret to our kids and just realizing that, oh, man, what sense did I just give them of their value, worth, and identity? But it's so crucial. How do we repair those moments, and how do we be intentional about taking that influence seriously and speaking words that give life to our kids? So, Steven, we've talked about a couple of different areas, you know, sports, music, but maybe lay it out a little more for listeners that this is a newer concept or they're just trying to think it through today in a fuller way. What are the different kind of. The different types of Performance wounds that you might bring up or that people might be experiencing?

Yeah, it's a good question. And I have a short list, and there's probably more. But I just want to highlight that some of these sports wounds we're talking about are actually about body image for a lot of men and women.

That's a good point.

Yeah. Lots of. I've heard it said, you know, the two topics that don't get talked about is women who struggle with porn and guys struggling with body image issues. But it's real, you know, so that's one. Academics. It could be, you know, church. Especially if you grew up in church as an addict, it felt like you're just failing in your ability to measure up. And if you're in a church culture that didn't show value or know how to do vulnerability and really demonstrate what unconditional love looks like as we are on a journey of growth, you know, like, you have to just be perfect. You know, every. We're a new creation in Christ. That means there's no sin. So we ignore the other versions about how we're being transformed by the renewing of our mind. So that's a place that it happens. We might be experienced performance wounds, like, in our sexuality. That can show up too, I would say, relationally. Sometimes you might wonder why you don't have friends. And, like, I'm not outgoing enough. I'm not funny enough. Yeah. So there's so many arenas this can happen, and it's just any. Any arena that you can compare yourself to someone else.

Yeah.

And come to a conclusion that something is wrong with me. Yep. You know, the reason why I don't experience as many friends as this person is there's something wrong with my personality or the reason why I don't. Yeah. No reason why nobody likes me is I'm not handsome enough or I'm not athletic enough. I mean, there's so many ways this can show up.

Yeah. It's interesting. I believe that once you compare or comparison happens, someone always loses. It's just never a good situation. And that is really challenging. I mean, we live in a culture that highlights, you know, physical attractiveness, whether that's physique, like, looks, different hairstyles, different complexions, whatever it may be, you know, all the way up to. I mean, you know, we just. Not that long ago the super bowl was happening, and it's like, you. Those are, like the superstars of our day and age. Those are the people who we aspire to be. Like, when we're kids and So I think some of that, too, just on your parenting, your parenting kick on that, is that defining what value is for our kids is something we can do proactively. That, like, if we. If our kids see us, you know, elevating sports or, you know, sports athletes or actors or politicians or whatever, and we're elevating those people to a point, we actually end up teaching our kids this is what it is to be a man or a woman. This is what it is to have value or to bring, you know, something beneficial to the world. So that's just something that's going on in my head now is thinking through, who am I pointing my kid toward? Am I modeling that in my own life? And then who are my kids watching me celebrate, you know, and how far that can go for their life.

That's so good. Sometimes we will give so much attention to who we're watching on tv, and we don't ever celebrate our kids. As you're saying that, that thought came to me and I was like, ooh, that's convicting.

Yeah, I know. Stephen, you suck, man. I feel like garbage right now. So let's turn the corner here. How do we start bringing healing to these wounds? I mean, for me, I can't go back to when I was 12 years old and make this great catch and redo. I don't have a mulligan in that scenario. So how do we go back and heal those wounds we have from performance issues?

A great question. To me, it requires both doing what I would call internal work and external work. So, you know, when that sports wound gets triggered, or like, let's say in your example that you just brought up Trevor, if something comes up where you feel like you can never do the right thing and recognize that it's that same wounding that happened when you were 12 years old and made that amazing catch. What I like, the way I like to look at it for myself, is that if that wounding is active, it's like carrying a kid in my emotional self that is with me and still needs attention and needs help. So I will. And I know this sounds weird maybe for some, but so I will recognize that I will actually speak to those parts to me that need to heal or like, sort of. Imagine if somebody stepped in and like a parental figure stepped in as a voice of authority and was able to speak to him, what that would sound like. And what I realized is when I do that, I'm actually reflecting and meditating on what God's love expressed to me looks like.

Cool.

You know, God wants to express his love to us as a father through the fathers and, you know, our mothers in our life. You know, that part of his nature, too. That was the worst way to articulate that, I think.

No, you're good.

But, you know, God has things that he wants to reflect to us about who he is through motherhood and fatherhood. And so sometimes just allowing myself to imagine what it is and say those. Because if that wound is alive, it's like that emotional kid is kind of. It's with me and it's alive. So I will begin to meet the needs and speak to him and bring him comfort in that way. And that's kind of the internal wounding that I do. And then the second thing I do is something external, which is, you know, I will act on it. So if so, I'm pausing here because I think maybe the best way to tie all this together is to use the personal example. So I had wounding. When I was in third grade, I went to a small private school. And it was so small, like 70 kids from kindergarten through eighth grade. So we were all on the same team. So I'm third in third grade. I was playing sports with eighth graders. And I was used to being like, last place because I was just the littlest. And that made participating in sports something that was really uncomfortable and had lots of shame for me. So recognizing that, oh, I wasn't really given space to thrive, and I interpreted that as, something is wrong with me. I speak to that kid there. And then the external work that I do is something I did a couple years ago is I did a year of CrossFit knowing that I'd never done it and would totally suck at it. And I became comfortable that, hey, I'm finishing my workout three or four minutes after everyone. And it feels those three to four minutes feel like a really long time. But then I wasn't withdrawing. I'm going to choose to, like, act on the fact that, hey, I'm lovable and I deserve space to grow and develop. And so I would go and be my outgoing self with them afterwards. I go talk to the people that I'm intimidated by and used to think never wanted anything to do with me because I always jokingly referred to myself when I did CrossFit as last place, Larry. But I was just like, hey, I'm going to belong. I'm going to choose to belong here because I'm speaking to that kid and letting him know he does belong and that he doesn't, you know, like, you know, and I let I give him what he needs and I've spoken that to his identity and I'm going to act on it. So it's the combination of the internal work and the external work that has been super life giving for me.

Yeah, I think that's so good. And it's all about in many ways becoming comfortable in our own skin, being okay, that we have limitations, we have weaknesses. I mean God created Adam and Eve in his perfect world with limitations. They weren't perfect, they weren't, you know, they needed other people, there were things they couldn't do, there was a tree they couldn't eat of. Like he made us perfectly with limits. And I think accepting that as part of the process. And I was also thinking of something that has to happen on two levels. You know, internal, external, I love that. But I think a similar thing has to take place with forgiveness. Like he's one of my personal stories when I was a junior in high school, had a very kind of tough, hard nosed coach, old school, and there was a pass and we were playing zone defense, a pass that I probably could have stolen or intercepted. And he exploded and he's like, stumbo, what is wrong with you? My 80 year old grandma could have made that, that steal and just went off at me. And I realized as a college student I had a lot of anger and bitterness towards that coach. And I did some real work of letting go of that and forgiving him. And he had incidentally, a few years before that even died of cancer. And so it was like, here I'm harboring this resentment. And that was really good work. But I realized in my recovery process 10 years later, I still had a lot of wounds around that moment I was like, what's going on? I forgave him. But what I realized is that I had never forgiven myself because there was a part of me that took the wounding because I felt like it was true, I wasn't enough. And he was pointing it out. And the wound I had was kind of self inflicted, of continuing to tell myself that message, I'm not good enough, I should have made the play. And there was this process of letting myself off the hook and hearing God's words of grace to that high school kid and be like, you know what, I was trying my best. And that day, for whatever reason, I didn't make the play, like that's okay, I need to forgive my 16 year old self for not making that play. And realizing that didn't change my value, worth or identity. And so I think for maybe many people You've more likely done the work of forgiving a perpetrator or someone who spoke those words to you, especially if they were done intentionally. And if you haven't, maybe start there. But then there's the more internal work of forgiving myself, of accepting those limits and weaknesses, and recognizing that in God's economy, that doesn't change the value of who I truly am.

Very good.

Yeah. Because, Stephen, what you're talking about is replacing old experiences with new experiences. And that's such an important piece for recovery, is that we have these woundings, we have these lies, we believe these messages. We believe because of these negative experiences. And so when you go to CrossFit and you enter into that, you are intentionally putting yourself in an uncomfortable situation and acting differently than you did before in order to replace those old experiences. And that's. I mean, that's something at a biological level, even in the brain, that needs to take place. It's the taking off and the putting on. It's the replacing those old behaviors, but also replacing those new experiences. Man. It's just. All the stories come up when you talk about this topic for me, but one of them is I've never been good at water sports. And if you hang out with me, you know that I do not want to go on a boat. Like, you know, I have a really close friend who has a boat, and he wants to go out all the time. And I'm like, if only you and I go out and you teach me how to wakeboard, then yes. But other than that, I'm not going out there. But I've realized that over time, that's actually gonna. It's gonna be something that keeps me from experiencing deeper levels of healing and not necessarily going out on the boat. Like, if I don't want to, that's fine. But still pressing into those things I'm not good at. Still pressing into those things that make me uncomfortable so that I can. Number one, I can become okay with not being good at something because that if there's a message that Trevor Windsor needs to hear more than anything, it's okay to not be good at something. It's okay to not be the smartest person. It's okay.

And all the enneagram threes and sevens said amen. Amen.

That's right. That's right. But it.

Three wing two.

Yeah, there you go.

Three wing two right here.

Yeah, but it is something that it's okay to. And, you know, all these things I've heard people say, but the idea of just embracing Being bad at something can actually be one of the best things we can do for us. We can still press through and still work, but we have to replace those old negative experiences with new ones.

So, Stephen, talk us through that a little bit, because I think for many, many people, performance and identity get linked. I mean, some of that is maybe just human nature. So how do we create a healthy separation between what we do, our performance, and who we are, our identity?

Yeah, I mean, I would say that. Pay attention to when you're triggered. So if it's hard for me that I went on Facebook and saw Nick, that you got wordle in two tries and it took me three tries.

If that's bothering you now, you're not as good yet. Totally.

If, you know, if I can't celebrate you, then there's, you know, probably that's evidence of. Oh, there's. I like how there's a form of therapy that's been gaining popularity called internal family systems. And they don't just call it triggers, they call it trailheads. Like, there's a story here as to why it's hard for me to be okay, that I'm not the best right now. So, you know, self awareness as to what throws you off when you start feeling like you don't belong or feeling uncomfortable that you're less than or, you know, whatever that looks like for you. And I would say actively attack it by, like, doing the internal and external work. So you're saying, Trevor, like, having these new experiences, you know, me going to CrossFit was fruit of the internal work that I had done because I became secure, that I was lovable, and that, hey, you know, you can be treated kindly and be accepted and celebrated, even as you're just learning this new skill and this new sport. Those are conversations I allowed myself to. I imagined somebody meeting me in that pain and let a new voice of authority be louder than the. The. The something wrong with something is wrong with me narrative that was going on in my heart. And so, I mean, it's kind of a mixture of self awareness and actively go after it to untie yourself up from it. Because I also like what you're saying is being okay with not being great at something. Trevor, I've been in a similar season where doing this has opened me to want to try things that I never tried because of, you know, I don't want to go in and be last place Larry again. You know, I don't like how that feels. But I'm open right now to so many new experiences and it's creating opportunities for more connection. And people also like being around somebody who is comfortable in their own skin. Actually an attractive quality that invites connection and puts people's guards down. So I don't know if that perfectly answers the question, but that's the best answer I have for it.

Yeah, no, I feel like that does. It's really good. I think a couple other things I'll just add to it is the importance of identifying where we learned these messages and experience these wounds. I think is really helpful because you can at that moment realize that. And I've heard this, like, if I experienced something at 11 years old, I was reacting and responding as I was an 11 year old. I wasn't responding like a 33 year old. I have these clear eyes, like, bro, you could have just said this, you could have just done that, or you could have just not believed what they said. So I think identifying and observing what's true about that situation and where you learn that message. And then Nick, you mentioned it earlier, the idea of limitations, and I think that that's a really important piece to doing that too, is learning to embrace those limitations. Meaning for me, the things I grew up learning were that your value or the respect that you can get will come by being intelligent and by being a leader. And so I would seek out. And in some ways, it's actually been very beneficial for my life. But like, I'm going to master's. I'm in my master's program. I got my psap, I'm leading a team, I'm on the executive team here. And so these are all things I can find my identity in. But for me, other things like leading a Bible study or discipling people, I've learned that I can't do all of these things at the same time. And what's been cool is I've learned that no is a really courageous thing for me in my life to say no to something, to another experience to learn or lead. And what I found is that has actually helped train me that it's okay. It's almost the healthier thing for me to say no to some of these things. And that actually is proof of my health and proof that I do have value, that I can say no to these things and that my identity doesn't have to be rooted in doing all the things for all people.

Yeah, I was thinking about just what we say about sexual addiction, pornography, unwanted behaviors is. It's not enough to just stop them and try to not have them anymore. It's really the Question of. Of what are we turning to instead? What will replace those? What's our health going to look like? So I think if we have these performance wounds and negative messages about our value, worth and identity, part of that answer is redefining where I find my value, worth and identity so that I have a place of security from which I'm willing to try new things. I'm willing to fail. I'm willing to be not enough, because that's no longer where I find my value, worth and identity. And so that also speaks to me the need for growth and the need for some of us for counseling or therapy, or at a minimum, a coach or mentor who can walk alongside of us and help us recognize how to find a new source of our identity in Christ and in relationships so that we can go into those performance areas, not with our identity on the line every time. And I want to just be clear to say this too. This is like my issue. This is every day for me. I can either come in and say, okay, my identity is in being a really great director and leader of pure desire. And then it's like every moment I'm evaluating, am I doing that or not? And some days I live in that kind of mindset, and other days like, no, I know who I am. I know who God made me to be. And even if I never have this job or never work here again, it's not going to change who I am. There's just a different posture. So I wanted to be clear. This isn't like something you just quickly master. This is like, this is the process of change and transformation. But it's so good because I think it gets into that, that deep place of where's my value and identity coming from?

That's so good. And when you say, like, yeah, it's not something that necessarily ends. I've been liking to tell people that, you know that verse in the Bible that says, keep your heart with all diligence? That verse doesn't have an end date, right?

Yes.

If you do that work, you will get better at it, you know, and you will see fruit in your life, because as you're navigating and intending the garden of your heart, you will plant some trees and they will grow, and they'll grow. They'll be the tree of sobriety that is growing in your life, and they'll be the tree of, you know, connection with your wife or whatever. But there will still always be work to do. So it's not that we don't trigger in life anymore. It's just that we get. We know how to navigate that and use those triggers to bring us to a life. To life. So bring us to Jesus to bring us to encounter, you know, the king of all kings, the author and finisher of our faith, and experience, you know, his unconditional love, and then experience that with people, the people around us, too. So that's what health is.

Yeah. I need to plant a tree of CrossFit in my life. I'm just gonna throw that out there right now. Okay. So, Stephen, many of us, you know, we have. And we've already identified. The three of us have experienced this. We experience performance wounds. And obviously, as you mentioned, it's that ongoing thing. But many of us also have friends who suffer from performance wounds. How do we help them or support them? Because it's obviously really hard to watch them go through it too. So what's our role in that?

I do think that modeling through, doing the work yourself is always the best. Like, you'll be able to give more. The more you're walking in wholeness, the more you've confronted your own pain, your own insecurities and have overcome that. You will have insight just because you've done the work into what other people are specific, typically going, and be able to more accurately help them. And then also, as you do that work again, it will attract people. Everyone wants to be comfortable in our own skin. People will be drawn to that vulnerability. So, like, that. That is always the best thing. And then the other thing I would say, too, is, yeah, putting it into practice by being okay about being in your, like, comfortable in your shortcomings and failures with people. Bring that vulnerability to the table. And then I also think that it's really helpful to look to affirm people and, like, give specific affirmations to people about what they do bring to their table. Like, speak to people's identity. You know, be that voice that they never had. I think that's so healing when you receive a good affirmation that's specific. It's like, whoa, they know me. They see me. They see what's going on. I think those are the three answers I came up with to your wonderful question.

Super good.

Yeah.

You know, I think a lot about my kids and am I creating performance swoons in their life? And I probably am and probably have, but that is something I'm trying to be mindful of is if the only time I show appreciation for my kids is when they've done something good, I'm inadvertently reinforcing. You are what you do you are what you produce. Wow. Good grades. That's awesome. And I'm not saying we shouldn't do that, but that's the only time I say it's awesome that they got straight A's. They connect. My value to my dad is when I perform well. And so just I've tried to find throughout their life. And again, I don't do it perfectly, but it's an area I. That I keep trying to grow and to just randomly say, I'm so proud of you. You're so awesome. And especially my youngest, Luke, who's 10, he'll say, why? I'm like, because you're my son. And that's just how I feel about it. Love you. And it still kind of confuses him. Like, oh, okay. You know, it's just. There's a logic there in our brains of, oh, if I make a shot. And it was really impressive, and my dad says, wow, that's awesome. Now I know why. But if my dad just walks by and says, man, I think you're awesome, and I'm not doing anything, our brain kind of looks for the reason. And if we give them the reason, it's just who you are. That's how I feel about you. I think it can reinforce that your value is who you are, not what you do. So I'm working on with my kids, working on my relationship. Probably got coworkers that wish I worked on it more here, but, hey, one level at a time. We'll get there.

That's so good, and thank you. I appreciate the work that you're doing on it. I think I don't have all of it off the top of my head, but I just know that there's been research out there done on when we affirm the effort that's being put in versus the results that have been accomplished. And you'll see people who, if we affirm the effort, like, man, you worked really, really hard, and you affirm that piece, those people actually end up being more successful over time and increasing their grades or the results of what they do far more than, like, hey, really good job on getting an A. Like. Like, there's research out there that shows that. And I think that that's something that's just coming to mind now that we could work on, you know, with our kids, even with ourselves. You know, you talked about husband material. Like, we had Drew BOA on to talk about parenting our inner child. We've talked about that. That's a way that you can do that with yourself too, you know, Identifying like, man, you're working really, really hard right now. And if you think about it, how often do we need to hear that as kids, you know, growing up? How often do we need to hear that today? Like, I just, I see how hard you're working. You're working really, really hard and I appreciate the effort you're putting forth. This is plug, Nick. If you wanted to say those things to me a couple times every day, that'd be helpful. But I just think that that's a really. But it is. Honestly, it goes a really long way, you know, And I can think of times where my wife has said that to me. Like, I see the work that you're putting in and it means a lot to me. Yes, man, that's a badge I could wear around. You know what I mean? I'll add that to my resume because it's so meaningful.

I love that. And I mean that's, that's the conversations where I sing, I speak to myself. That's exactly what you're talking about, Trevor. And even Nick, when you were telling your story of when the coach, you know, erupted at you in the basketball, I was like, oh, it's like, yeah, as a parent, you'd want to say, hey, I saw how much you're hustling out there, you know, and I love the work you're doing. The game didn't actually hinge on that one play. There was lots of other moments to that game. It wasn't all your fault. You know what I mean? There's just things that could have have been healing for you to hear, you know, and as a father, I think through that lens. But yeah, I have those conversations with myself because the reality is wounds have happened. There were sin is in the world. There's ways that our parents don't show up for us. And the way emotions work, like when a kid comes to you and is crying when you meet them and give him a hug and like kind of attune with them. There's a moment where it's like the weight of it just go flies away and then they're off playing again and it's like it never happened. That's just how our emotional self works. So if we like come in logically to ourselves sometimes, like, you know, in our mental state, we won't actually hit that emotional part, but just spending time speaking and being tender and kind to ourselves. I find that lots of times the emotional wounds do fly away. And that parts me, that part of me grows up. It's not stuck, you know, in that 12 year old pain, you know, or 15 year old pain that happened in my development. So love it.

So we're talking about a lot of these performance wounds, Steven, from our past childhood, high school, college, sports. I think that's natural. But the truth is we don't stop getting wounded in life. And so talk about what you would suggest if someone experiences a performance wound currently or in the near future where they fail at something or have a bad experience in an area that, that they kind of have realized they look to for their sense of identity. How can we learn to respond to those with better health, better maturity, and just a better likely outcome than taking on more wounding?

Yeah, that's great question. So like, if I'm free from performance, then I can actually have grace on myself that I'm healing and wrestling with performance. So putting that into practice, you know, like, yeah, I'm struggling with performance and just be like, hey, you know, again, that conversation with yourself. I know this has been a long battle, but you're lovable right now and we'll figure this out. So just start with that internal, the way you treat yourself. And again, I'm going to pause and add, recognize that you are reflecting God's love to yourself just in a way that means something for you. Because we're human and we're made for connection in relationship. But yeah, starting there. And then I would just reflect and use that trigger because that's what it is as a trailhead. Like, why is this hard for me? Like, what does this connect to? When have I felt this way before? And begin to put the pieces and see where the kid is at, like where the wounding occurred and then start speaking to that kid or doing something on his behalf, like do some kind of external action. For me personally, I think an external action I typically take because shame is one of my biggest triggers. And shame and hiddenness is so I will always prove to myself that I'm lovable by talking to somebody else about it and allow myself to be seen in my weakness and my friendships that I have.

And that's such a huge thing. I mean, just this weekend, it's new for me. I'm just starting to now speak a little bit more for pure desire. And so we were at this men's event and I was sitting at the back table with our producer Justin, who's my best friend in the whole world. And I was feeling like I wasn't gonna connect with these people. We're in this military community and I'm wearing skinny jeans and Chelsea boots. And I'm like, I am just not. I do not fit in here. Like, I just don't feel like I fit in. And I don't think they're gonna connect. And I just. This, you know, negative self talk was just going and going. I was spinning. And I just turned to Justin, and I was like, hey, man, this is how I'm feeling. I just wanted to share it. And what's cool is that he was able to add perspective. And you know what's funny? I can't even remember anything that he said, but I just remember him affirming what I said and then saying, like, bro, you're gonna do great. It's gonna be awesome. And I remember how helpful that was. And when I got up there, within the first two minutes, I totally did connect with the people and felt like, okay, like, I can do this. This is something that God has gifted me and put me forward in this season of my life. I can do this. And so, for me, that's just the biggest thing, is talking to other people, allowing people in, because that's one of those things where they can reframe it for you. They can put it under a microscope and be like, look, this isn't true. This is a message that you're believing or a. That you're believing. And here's what's true. And I think that that's why group is so helpful. That's why living vulnerably with transparent relationships is so helpful, because other people can point out when we see something that's not true, and then they can also point us to reality.

Yeah, I was just thinking that's the value of group. That's the people in our life that know us and that we know, accept us for who we are, because we have that level of emotional, relational intimacy with them. You know, thinking back to that, that high school basketball story, it actually happened for me at a practice where no one other than my teammates and my coaches saw or heard what happened. So there was no one in my life that could come alongside me, like, you know, what he said wasn't true and speak an opposite word. And at that time in my life, I was very much an internal processor. I took that all to myself and carried that weight until it came to, oh, I need to forgive that coach. But I think that's the big change in me now is if a similar experience happened now, kind of laughing, like, where would that happen now? But if something like that that just felt like, man, my identity and performance just really got hammered, I would have A lot of people I could go to with that story and say, can you help me process this? And what parts do I need to learn from and what parts do I need to let go of? And just my ability to do that in relationship is very, very different. And I'm thankful that that's what I think growth and recovery looks like. So I think that's my encouragement for group, for healthy relationships, for people in your world that know you inside and out. Out. Because then when this happens, you go to them and they help give you perspective on how you should respond to it. And then you can, I think, process it in a much healthier way. Because the reality is we are going to go through tough stuff, but the truth being, we don't have to go through it alone.

Absolutely love it. I mean, like, as you're saying that, Nick, it made me think of, like, you know, when we're practicing being known and being seen, like, with others, seen in our weakness, we are practicing unconditional love. Love. We're practicing what that is. Right. We're in process. And I'm lovable right now, so I'm not going to hide and that, like, what. How else? Let me put it this way. What a better way to punch performance in the face, you know what I mean? Like, it just goes right after it. So such a powerful tool is to just practice vulnerability. And it's. It's easier said than done. Even even though I'm in sopriety for 13 years, there's time for like.

And then there can be the guilt of, why am I still reacting this way? And the shame. I should be better by now. And that's just even part of the messaging. We have to learn to listen to, to go, whoa, hold on, timeout. Just because I'm feeling something doesn't mean I'm stuck back there. It's something I can learn from. So being gracious to yourself, I think, is a big part of today's episode.

Totally.

Yeah.

So Stephen just. I mean, we're. This has been great, Great. Thank you so much for being on with us. And this is such a cool topic. You know, we were talking to Steven, emailing back and forth, just asking for topics, and this was just the one. You know, he. I think you sent like three or four. It was like, boom, this is it right here. Sports performance wounds. It's just so good. I think so many people are relating to it, but just taking kind of account for all the people who are listening, you know, maybe there are people who are athletes who had Those performance wounds, Maybe they were performers. Maybe it was just relationships, you know, dating relationships or parents. What final encouragement would you give to listeners who are battling through or just maybe even identifying that they have performance wounds in their life?

Yeah, I would just love anybody who is listening to see this conversation as an invitation into living a life of confidence and being comfortable in your own skin, flaws and all, and to receive unconditional love at. As you know, we're all on a journey of growth. You know, we're lovable wherever we're at on that journey of growth. So I would just invite everyone to take that invitation and experience relational abundance and first with yourself. And I'll just tell you that as you do it, you will begin to truly enjoy who you are. And you'll have so much gratitude in your heart to God for this, too. You will praise him that you are fearfully and wonderfully made, and that will be real to you. You. I'll just say this. This doesn't turn into, oh, I'm so confident and don't need anything. I Confidence is such a better portion than all the insecurity I lived with that I'm just so grateful to Jesus. And so that verse, I'll praise you because I'm fearfully, wonderfully made. I feel that I love it so. And I experience so much more connection now with other people because of it, because I'm living more honestly with others around me. So it's an invitation to feel love.

Yeah, absolutely.

I think what comes to mind for me as a final encouragement would be just to direct people to Scripture and ask the question, how did God and how did God revealed in Jesus respond to people in their weaknesses, in their limitation, in their pain? Did he tell them to go be better? Did he tell them to shape up? Did he point out the flaws? Or did he give people rest? Did he invite them to draw away? Did he give them grace? Did he offer healing? And I think when we see that pattern, I think of a lot of Elijah in the Old Testament, that God gave rest and he fed him on this journey where he's just despondent. We need an image of our God, our Heavenly Father, that has compassion for us in areas where we feel like we're not doing well. Because I think if we can really lean into that, then we can have compassion for ourselves and be able to say, well, if God treats me this way, how should I treat myself in light of that?

Yep, that's what I wrote down to the idea that that verse that says, while we were enemies With God. Christ died for us. And so, you know, to put it in context, it's not like we were on God's team and we were just failing. We were playing against him. We were on the other team, you know, so we're like, it's even worse than not performing on his team at that point. Christ died for us at that point. He said, you're valuable. You are what I want, and this is what I'm willing to do to bring you into my family to save you. And, like, you know, I'm at a season in my life where sometimes even quoting scripture can feel or even, like, maybe smell like spiritual bypass. But I know this is. This is not spiritual bypass. This is biblical truth that we know that our value, that the value that we have in God's eyes was proven, and it's already been proven by Christ. And so just living in that, I feel like, is so, so important. That needs to be the place that we come from, not the place that we, like, build up to. That's the foundation for it. Stephen, man, again, this has been such. This is an episode for me personally. I feel like I needed to hear and be a part of. And so I just appreciate you. I appreciate the topic and just the work that you're doing now. The work you've done on yourself, obviously, is paying off, you know, in parenting, but also the work you're doing with other people. So thanks, man, for your time. Appreciate it.

Thank you guys so much. It's been such a privilege to be here with you. Appreciate being given a spot to share. Thank you.

Yeah. And wherever you're at on your journey, pure desire is here to help create a roadmap for your healing. If you or someone you know is impacted by sexual brokenness or betrayal trauma, go to PureDesire.org and let's start the healing journey today. Don't forget to subscribe to the podcast. Each week, we put out new content to help you on the road to healing and freedom. And lastly, never stop being healthy.

Sam.