249 - Leading Women's Groups

You're listening to the Pure Desire Podcast, your safe place to find hope, healing, and freedom from sexual addiction, betrayal, and relationship issues.

What's up?

What's up? I'm your host, Trevor Windsor, and you're listening to episode 249 of the Pure Desire Podcast. Here joining me, as always, is my co host, Nick Stembo.

It takes two, baby. Just me and you.

Who's the artist?

According to this little YouTube video, it appears to be Marvin Gaye.

Oh, okay.

There you go. I don't know that he wrote it, but he's probably known for it.

Those Marvin Gaye aficionados who are listening right now are probably going to send you some.

They're probably cringing or turning over in their grave because, yeah, I will not be accused of a good Marvin Gaye impersonation, that's for sure.

I think it's okay to just leave it there. So today we had Ashley Jamison back on. She is our associate director of groups here and for women's groups specifically. And we had her on to talk about leading. Getting women's groups going, but specifically leading them in our churches.

Yeah, it makes me think of one of our speakers, Rodney Wright. When he preaches on John Chapter eight, he likes to call it not the woman caught in adultery. He likes to call it the man who missed his healing. Because it brings up like, there's a missing part of this story. And I think when we talk about launching groups in a church, we. We find that a lot, that there's a missing part to the story. I've got all these men's group. We're helping the men and men who struggle with lust and men who struggle with. It's like, well, big percentage of those men are married. And so what are we doing for the women? And then, oh, yeah, by the way, women are human, too. And women have eyes and brains and hormones, and there are women who struggle. What are we doing for them? And so it really takes two. It takes groups for men, it takes groups for women. And to really have a healing approach that is holistic, so. So that couples can heal together, families can heal together. And ultimately, what that means is the church can heal together. Because if we're only helping men get healthy, but women are left to fend for themselves in this area, it's just not gonna work. And so our hope and goal in this episode is to really empower women to think about how they could lead, to really encourage churches and men to think about how they could support that and make room for that. And I think Moving forward, we're just gonna see that's the norm that we've got recovery for men and for women in this area of sexual broke. And so we hope today's episode helps with that.

Absolutely. I also. Now it clicked. I can hear the Marvin Gaye song now. Okay, I'm tracking with you.

I realized I don't know it that well, but it's just thematically it worked really well for this podcast.

Hey, man, you said it.

I don't like, go to my office and do singing practice. And these are mostly spur of the moment things. So if it happens to come correctly into my head as I'm doing it, that's about as close as I'm gonna get.

Now, my office is right across the hall from yours, so I would know if you practiced. All right, a few things before we get going. Today's episod episode is sponsored by Covenant Eyes and their restored vows free 14 day video course. In this course, Brandon and Tonya Clark talk through the dark period where pornography impacted their marriage and how they found healing and hope. If you're interested in checking out this free course, you can text the word vows to 66866. That's V O W S to 66866 and find the power in Restored Vows. If you're not a subscriber to the podcast, do it. Don't wait anymore. You can find us on all the major platforms. Give us a review. It helps other people see. The podcast means a lot to us. You can also follow us on Facebook, Twitter and instagramuredesirepdmi. If you'd like to consume video content, the full episode is up on YouTube. Just search Pure Desire Ministries and Nick, we want people to know about it, man. It's out. We're excited. We are pumped for everyone ever to go through this. It's the group leader training.

Yes, the group leader. Well, I don't know about everyone ever because we would also want them to be have an understanding of sexual brokenness by going through sexual integrity.

You ruined my sales pitch.

I'm sorry, but that's what I wanted to say. Like, it's in my mind. It's the two together. That's so powerful because if you've been using sexual integrity 101 and I might add, the Conquer series, you're getting a really good overview of sexual brokenness, the recovery path, what it looks like. And you've probably got people starting to go, man, this is good. We need to do something. And then let's start groups and when people in churches get to that point, they're like, and stop. Who's gonna lead? Like you? And everyone's like, not me, I'm not ready, I can't. You know, and people that are maybe really qualified to lead are saying, well, this isn't really my issue. Should I be leading? And so what we developed here is really so that when you get to that phase, you're like, we're ready to launch some groups. You can raise up some leaders. You can have them go through this group leader training video series. They can do it self paced on their own time at home. I mean, if you wanted to do a few people together in a room, you definitely could do that. But we really designed it just to be a self paced on your own, getting trained and then getting to the end and having that completion certificate that says, hey, I've been trained, I'm ready to help lead groups at our church. And we also think it'll be super, super valuable if you've been leading maybe even for a number of years. But you're wondering, as many of us have, like, am I doing this right? I just did what I saw my leader before me do. What does Pure Desire recommend? That's exactly what this video series is for. To really help you get refreshed, to go back to some of the basics of what is group all about and hopefully hone your leadership skills so that you can be helping men and women more effectively.

Yes. And you can get this eight session digital course pre order right now on our website, go to PureDesire.org GLT alright, here's our conversation with Ashley Jamison on leading women's Pure Desire groups. Ashley Jamison, welcome back to the podcast. Thanks for being here.

Hi. I'm happy to be here again.

Always so awkward. All right, so you're doing better though. That's encouragement. I've heard encouragement is helpful. You're doing better. You're doing better. Okay, so we talked about women's groups, we talked about group leadership on plenty of episodes, but we've never actually spent an entire episode specifically talking about leading women's groups. We've had an episode on starting women's groups in your church, but specifically women's group leadership. We wanted to focus on today talking through why women's groups are needed and then how to lead them the best way. So, Ashley, you're one of our associate directors of our groups department and you've been leading groups for years. In your experience, why are women's groups so needed in a church?

Oh, this is good. I'm really excited to be talking about this. Well, I did some research for a talk I previously did, and we found out that women are the fastest growing demographic of porn users. And so with that coupled with a statistic of only 7% of churches having an addiction recovery program in place, and then probably just a teeny, teeny fraction of that 7% is even actually for women. There's just a lot of women out there struggling. They're growing the fastest as users of porn, and there's very, very, very little help for them out there. So that's why it's important that we're talking about this. I think it would raise awareness for women's groups. And also just the shame level is high for women because, you know, it's historically been a man's issue. So those two things together, I think is why I feel passionate about putting it out there that women struggle, women can get help, women can be the help for other women.

It's kind of amazing to me because we talk about it a lot on the podcast and we're coming up on doing this for five years. Can you believe that? Like the five year mark around the corner. And so we talk about that sexual addiction is a people problem, that all people have been impacted by sexual brokenness, whether things done to them or by them. And so I think in our realm here, and for maybe many listening to the podcast, like, yeah, this is a people problem. And we got to have men's groups, we got to have women's groups, we got to have groups for women who've been betrayed, women who have their own issues. But what I'm surprised by is that outside of this world, that we can kind of operate in how common it still is that a church just has a group for men and you got their men's purity group. And it's the thing to do. And I appreciate that they're doing something, but it feels like even in a logical level, just take spiritual out of it. On a logical level, if you've got 50 guys in a men's purity group, you know, going through the Conquer series or Sexual Integrity 101, or doing some kind of men's support and accountability because they're struggling with lust and pornography, well, then you've got maybe 50 marriages that have been impacted by that husband's porn use. And so what are you offering for the women? And that's just outside of women having their own struggles and challenges, because we know that all people are sinful beings, not just men. And women may struggle in Some different ways or the issues might look different, but at other times, they look the same. And so the idea that, well, we have a problem that we only help men with just. It starts to seem, I think, almost humorous to us. But I think in the church, we're still so stuck in a way of thinking. And I think it's maybe a little bit the answer as well that in a lot of church, there are women's Bible studies. Well, we have the women's Bible study, and we have the men's purity group, which, even in and of itself, to me, is a bit of a problem, because men need a Bible study and women need purity. And so when we kind of make it these two categories, that that's what the women do and that's what men do, it almost prevents them from pursuing a more holistic spirituality. So I just think we want to take a step back and encourage everyone to see this is for men and women. And hopefully today, women feel encouraged to help be a part of leading those groups, because that's also a huge bottleneck for a lot of churches, is they'd like to do it, but they don't have any women stepping forward, saying, I'm willing to help.

Well, and one of the things that we've talked about a number of times is when an addiction and sexual brokenness at any level enters a marriage and discovery happens, there's usually a large crash. We talk about this like a car crash where both spouses are in the crash because of the one struggling spouse's addiction and the betrayed spouse being on the same journey in that same relationship. And so if you were to just take that visual of it and say, oh, we're only going to hurt the person who was driving or only going to help the person who's driving, it's like, wait, what? You're not gonna get both of them into a hospital bed and care for them and make sure that they both recover? And so when you put it in a context like that, you know, to your point, Nick, it almost seems ridiculous. Like you're just gonna just. The person whose fault it was that we got in the car accident, that's the only person you're gonna help. So I think that visual has helped me really wrap my head around the need for both. Regardless if it's a struggling spouse or a betrayed spouse, having both of those sides is so needed because you're gonna have a lot of people sitting in your congregation alienated.

Well, I think a lot of the people still are under the misunderstanding that if the Addict stops, then the spouse will be okay. And especially if they're only looking at it from a sin theological viewpoint, if they just stop sinning, then the spouse will be okay.

Yeah, it's like the struggling spouse saying, I'm never going to drive again. And it's like, well, that's great, but your spouse over here still has two broken legs and a broken back. So what's happening for that?

Yeah, yeah. So we know that both genders can struggle. And yet, Ashley, there may be some ways if a church or group is thinking about announcing or promoting women's groups, that they may want to approach it in a little unique or different way. So what are some thoughts you have about how can we announce or market women's groups in our churches in a way that would really be successful and effective?

Yeah, I think what makes the women's group so unique is that a lot of women are also victims of sexual abuse or sexual assault, whether it was prior to their acting out or even simultaneously. And so some women just automatically associate with, I've been in situations where I'm the victim. I've been with sex addicts before, and they maybe don't even see some of their own behaviors. So you really do have to be careful to not say, hey, if you struggle with sexual addiction, come to this group. That doesn't really work so well with anybody, let alone women who may not see that they're reading romance novels at the end of the night and withdrawing from their husband is something that they can work on in our groups. And so just, I always think it's best to cast a wide net. And that's why Unraveled is for managing love, sex, and relationships. It's not just, are you a porn addict? And I like to just make sure that nobody puts themselves in a box. So I'll say things like, you know, if you've struggled in relationships, if you're. You have repeated failed relationships, if you have sexual behaviors that are unwanted, if you find yourself, you know, fantasizing about relationships and not being present in your current. So I guess it just depends what avenue I have to talk to women, whether it's an announcement or on stage. But I like to cast that wider net and just invite them to come to the orientation. That's where they can start asking more about what's in the material to see if it's right for them. So cast a great big net and invite women. And then during that orientation, that's where you can kind of share some of your story, find out more about Material. And then maybe counseling would be right, maybe a victims group would be right. But just get them there so that they can find out. Because when Heather and I were traveling and doing the women's breakout, it's like you don't see any problem with your sexuality? Wait, what? You and your husband haven't slept together in how many decades? Or you're doing this on the side and you're having an affair and you don't think there's anything wrong with your sexuality. And so it really can be hard to self identify. And I just say, get them in a safe place, Let them ask questions, share your story, tell them what the material is about, and kind of go from there.

The two things that came to mind for me were, first, telling your story. If you have someone who has a story of healing, a story of addiction or betrayal, having them have a platform to share that story. Because we talk about shame being something, especially if churches assume it's a man's problem, if a woman's struggling with it, whether it's betrayal or her own addiction to love or sexual, that hearing someone's story can open that door. So I think that's really unique. You tend to just even default to. I just see men on stage talking about it at church or whatever. That's the first thing. And the second thing. And you were just talking about it, Ashley, Our friend Julie Slattery talks about this a little bit, that there's a continuum of sexual brokenness that we can all fall somewhere on it. To your point of like, you haven't had sex with your spouse for a year. That is a certain level of sexual brokenness that maybe isn't. That maybe doesn't have the same consequences as someone who has a porn addiction, but that still has consequences. And it's not how God designs sexuality to be played out in a relationship. So I think if you can normalize that conversation too, where we all have room to grow in our sexual health or integrity, I think that that's maybe not necessarily unique to women, but that's a way to maybe cast the broad net a little bit.

Yeah. And one thing we would want to clarify as you think about starting women's groups or having women's groups in your church, there's definitely a need to separate women that are going through group for their own healing. For the variety of issues like you mentioned, Ashley, which I so appreciate, because that's what came to mind for me too, is for women, they may need a little more help thinking through what does sexual brokenness look like, because it may not be porn, and if it's not that, they may say, well, that's not a group for me. But if you cast that wider net, that's a group for them to pursue their own healing over their addictive or struggling issues, but also to have a separate group for women that are on the betrayal side and are working through the relationship issues and the trust. Because we have seen churches and this is an area where pure desire got to pay the dumb tax and found out, oh, that doesn't work very well. If you say, like, we have this group for men in this group for women, and you try to do both in one women's group, what you're going to do is put together women who are really hurting and feeling betrayed because their husband's looking at pornography or has had inappropriate relationships in the same room with women who are maybe acknowledging, I've had inappropriate relationships and I've been sexting with men and like, and they're going to see each other in some ways as enemies or competition or it's not going to be a healthy environment. So you may, you know, without people going into their stories, you may be able to do like a women's night where you just address women's sexuality. You may be able to do an orientation to talk about groups with both in the same room. But when you are actually getting into the heart of people sharing their stories and looking to find transformation, you really need to have a plan for both groups of women. And as we've said, if you can't do both right away, that's okay. But. But just having that on the radar, that both groups really need a safe place to process with others that are on that same journey.

Absolutely. So, Ashley, we talk about this a lot, but just to circle back specifically in this conversation, what should we be looking for in potential women's groups leaders, and is there anything specific or unique that we look for in a women's group leader versus a men's group leader?

I think what you would want to look for, and I believe a lot of the potential leader qualifications are the same for men and women, that you want somebody that had traction in their healing, whether that's from sexual brokenness or from betrayal trauma, that you want them a little bit removed from their acting out or their traumatic episode. You want to make sure that they're supported so they have their own support system through church or through other group activities. You want to make sure that they're transparent. If you have somebody that comes in and they're really closed off to their own experiences and their own life. It's not going to set a tone to be vulnerable. And I really value a leader that can navigate those kind of dual situations, because in our groups, whether I'm leading unraveled or betrayal and beyond, I'm going to find women who have been sexual victims. I'm going to have women that kind of just cross both sides. So I really like to have leaders in there that have the wherewithal to address those things or at least reach out and say, hey, this came up in group. How should I handle this? To kind of not be so stuck in a box? Even though we want them to follow the guidelines and respect the guidelines and keep the group safe, we want them to be able to think outside of the box. Because each woman coming in is going to have so many complex situations that she's bringing to groups. So those are things that I look for if I'm leading a group. I'm going to be looking for the women who show up on time, whose homework's done, who's respectful of the guidelines, and I can see progress in her healing. Those are the women I usually encourage to go on and lead.

Yeah, well, there's definitely principles of group leadership that we can apply to these kind of groups as well. It's not like you need a totally different breed of leader than what your church might be looking for. And I remember even as a teenager learning about, you know, good leaders were fat. They were faithful, available, and teachable. And there's a lot to be said just about those three words that if you see someone who's even in Ashley was describing, they're in the midst of some of their own recovery. They're not all the way there yet, but they're someone that you really see. They'll be faithful. They'll be committed to it. I can rely on them to show up at group, to not be canceling it every week or to flake out. They seem faithful, they're available, There's a willingness, they want to do it, they're ready, they feel, maybe even a sense of call. You know, that all that to me falls under available. And they're teachable. They're someone that you feel as if you're on staff at a church or you're even a volunteer leader who's going to be over some of these groups. And you see a person that maybe they're not great in their knowledge base right now, but they're really teachable. You can give them direction and they follow it. I mean, that gives you a lot more latitude to work with that leader who maybe hasn't been trained. And you know, we're excited that we're developing a lot more training tools here at Pure Desire. And so if you do have a gal willing to lead groups who's on the newer end, you know, make sure to plug her into our monthly training sessions that our groups team makes available because there are things like that that just for a newer leader can really provide the kind of energy and support to keep them moving forward and can help them have a great group experience as a leader.

And honestly, we have a new group leader training program that is now out. It's a video course on our website that you can send all of your group leaders through. It's for men and women and so women can go through it and get equipped to really feel confident to lead. And so I'm just going to plug it right now. You can go to PureDesire.org GLT and do that because that's really what we're pushing as the foundation for getting trained to lead men's or women's groups.

So Ashley, if someone's listening, a female who's wondering, boy, could I lead groups? Should I do this? Should I be considering it? Maybe speak a little bit to them. Do you see any unique challenges to leading or maintaining women's groups and if so, what might be some of the challenges that a person would face? And, and are they any different than the challenges a man might face leading one of our men's groups?

Yeah, some of the challenges that I see personally with women would be their ability to break away from their family. Women often kind of run the sports schedule and maybe they're stay at home moms and not to say dads aren't either. But majority of the women that I see have challenges with committing to leading a group are like, I don't know what to do. I don't know about my kids schedule. I mean I just had a woman email me say, you know, I can't sacrifice my weeknights. I'm in the same boat. I have four kids, weeknights are hard. So I, I'm like, you can lead a daytime group. And she was excited to hear that. And I let her know, I lead a group at six in the morning and I have women who get on and they're happy to be done before they go to work or before kids wake up. And so navigating that, just taking time to come away from your family, especially for, okay, so the addict may not be good at setting aside that time for recovery and self care, because that's something that addicts aren't very good at. The matriarch spouse may have low self esteem or feel that they can't take this time for themselves, or maybe think it's not important since they're not the one who struggles. And so first it's just recognizing that this time that you're taking away is so valuable for you, for your family, for your kids, for relationships, that can be the biggest hurdle, I think. Also I had mentioned there's a lot of women that come into group that might be victims of previous sexual abuse. And so just knowing yourself well enough to know if you're triggered, that you have your own support system you can reach out to and get help from. There's been times where, because women's groups aren't as established in church, in churches that I've had to advocate and say we need child care. We need to have no obstacles for these moms who are home all day with these little kids and feel like they can't break away. So if you can get church leadership to support them in that way, saying it's worth it for these marriages and these families to provide two hours of child care or allow this group to come in on a night that childcare is already running. So we've had churches reimburse us. We found our own babysitter and they've reimbursed us or they've provided childcare. And you have to be really creative. Other times we've met during nap time and just sat and had coffee during nap time. So that can be a challenge for women. And then just the lack of understanding of women's issues, it can be really shameful. And so just bringing that awareness that it's normal to struggle and it's not anything creepy or weird and feeling confident enough to step out in that leadership role.

Yeah, I think one thing that just is coming to mind, I want to be careful how I say this, but people who are experiencing betrayal trauma are flooded with crazy amounts of emotion that oftentimes can seem to come out of nowhere. Something triggers it and it just takes off. And the reason why I'm bringing that up in this context is that just statistically there are more women who are experiencing betrayal than men. At least that's what we see in our groups where someone who's struggling with an addiction, struggling with their own recovery, they're probably not, most of them are not in tune with their emotions. They're trying to avoid them. That's why they're seeking unhealthy behavior to try to medicate that. And so I think I bring that up mostly just because we need to be understanding of where those people are at in that process of recovering from betrayal trauma, because they're going to be frozen and stuck a lot. And the word that comes to mind is understanding and patience. Understanding that this process is going to take a long time and there are going to be weeks where a betrayed spouse. And I don't know this from experience. I know this from conversation with Ashley and with Jen and Heather and the women on staff who've led groups, some of the PSAP training as well. But they get stuck and it usually takes them a while to understand and take agency of their own recovery. And so just going into it with that understanding, I think will help in the long run. And I think that that's why we encourage so many churches to educate themselves on betrayal trauma.

Yeah, I remember for my wife and I, the first time we did group, we were driving about half an hour and our group night was actually the same night, which in particular because we had to travel a little ways to get to this church where the groups were doing it the same night was just huge because rather than both of us having a night, we got to drive half an hour, be gone out of the home. It was kind of our family night. And we got, as odd as this may seem, some fun family time in the way in the car, up and back. Our kids were little. We'd often be talking about our week on the way up. We'd many times stop for McDonald's ice cream cone on the way home. But anyway, just all that to maybe cast vision for some that doing men's and women's groups at a church on the same night and providing childcare can be a real win for a young family. And let's be honest, many people who need help with sexual brokenness will tend to be young families because that's a season of life where your stuff, your family of origin issues, your poor habits, your lack of discipline, your addictive issues tend to hit the fan because suddenly, you know when you've maybe just been a young married couple with no kids, you've been able to maybe get by with some just less discipline in your life. It's easier to kind of hide your weaknesses. But you start throwing little kids in and the financial pressures and all that just like stuff hits the fan in that season of life. And if you add on top of that, like, well, you've got to Figure out how to get to a group on your night, and I've got to go to mine on a different night. And there's really nothing for our kids. It can be a lot. Now, it's not to say that can't be navigated. That's not an excuse because we do always encourage men as well. Something you do is you step up and say, I'll watch the kids whenever you need me to, for you to do group, because I know you need that support. And. And especially if they're the ones that are causing the betrayal trauma, like, I want you to get healthy. I'll watch the kids. But if it is on the same night, just that was such a blessing to us and gave us interaction with the childcare workers, with other couples that had young kids. And the shared experience, I think, was really powerful for us. So if. If some of you listening never thought about that, just to cast that vision of what might that look like to serve your young men and women in recovery by providing childcare and just really adding to their experience.

It is interesting how small, practical things can be so helpful in this area of groups. Just how thinking through more of a holistic approach to it can really invite people. And I mean, the language I continue to use is just like, basically tear down the hurdles that you could be putting in place of people.

Right. I remember when we did the same night, and it was like the kids would get in the car. It was never sweet and peaceful. It was always like, get in the car. We have to go. But they're always like, oh, we're going to men's group and women's group tonight. Mommy and Daddy have men's and women's group, or Waylon used to call it man's group. And it was just like, okay, we need to heal as a family. We're going to this thing. And it was. It was so much better than having two separate nights. Because when I would go to Betrayal and Beyond, when I was in that group and the kids would be home with John, it's like he's recovering and working hard on his addiction, but now he doesn't have these coping mechanisms. And so he's even kind of more bent or, you know, like, pent up, because he's still learning how to navigate feelings without using his old coping strategies. And so then I would feel stressed in my group because I knew the kids were home and they're toddlers and mouthy preteens. And so it was just really nice to be able to not have that distraction when I was trying to work on my own healing or leading groups.

Yeah. And then now you have adults and mouthy preteens basically where you're at now. Okay, so leading Pure desire groups, we know from experience and we know so many people out there who've experienced this, they can be challenging and really draining. I mean, it's not like I know that you can look forward to it, but it's also not like your life is going super great and that's why you're going to group each week. So what encouragement would we give specifically to women who are leading pure desire groups, whether that's unraveled or betrayal and beyond?

Yeah, I feel like I say this quite a bit to leaders that, you know, take the breaks that you need you as a woman. And especially if you've, if you've had the betrayal experience, you are not responsible for the healing of everybody around you. It's so nice to pay it forward and so nice to step in and it's a wonderful experience and it contributes to your healing. It's great. But if you're feeling like you need a break from leading and you're worried, you know, women all over the world will never find help because you stopped leading your group, that's not true because we have groups and people here at Pure Desire that can support those women who need group or we can help train up new leaders with you. And then I say to pick a time that really suits your schedule. I'm about six months into my unraveled group and I love it. It's just wonderful to get up at 5:30 and have it done before my workday even starts. My last group I did at 12 o' clock in the afternoon and once summer hit I was like, oh, I don't like leading groups. And same thing. If I were to do an evening, evening is for my family, for my husband, for my kids. And I know evenings work well for some, but I always say pick the time and day of the week that is going to benefit you. Don't worry if we're asking for evening leaders or that's, you know, pick what works for you because if, if it's fun and stress free, stress free for you, you're not going to get burnt out easy and it's going to be something that's nice on your schedule. So take breaks, have your support. Sometimes groups are heavy and so after group you may need to just kind of reward yourself. Like every week after group then I schedule this coffee date with my friend or go on a walk just Take care of yourself and see maybe where you have stress or anxiety or negative emotions come up that surround group, is it before, group is it after? And then put something in place to create self care or switch things around so that that group is not an anxious or stressful thing for you.

Yeah.

The phrase that comes to mind for me as an encouragement to women about leading groups is that you're more ready than you realize. If you're listening to this podcast and there's a part of you that feels like, man, our group really needs something. And I know there are women hurting and I mean, I'm hurting. I just, I wish there was something there. And if there's that desire on your heart, I think there is something to be considered there of why do you have that desire? Why do you want to see your church do something? And it probably goes beyond just your own needs. And yes, you have needs, but if you see that it's a need bigger than yours, you might be someone that God is tapping on the shoulder saying, why not go talk to that female staff member? Why not talk to your friend who leads groups and say, hey, could we start this group at our church? And I don't know if I'm totally ready, but I'm willing to help and I'd like to see it happen. And so if I can help some way, let me know. You're more ready than you realize. Because if you have that desire to help and you feel like, hey, I can be faithful, I'm available, I'll be teachable, I think there are a lot of steps that you can take. There are a lot of ways that we can help prepare you and that if you've got a little bit of support from your church, I think you're ready and you can make it work. And Ashley and the team have so many stories of where that's exactly the scenario that led to a church having groups that get reproduced over time.

Yeah, just self care. Self care just continues to be a theme I hear with leaders. And I think that, and I'll just speak from my experience growing up in the church and looking at my wife, that I didn't see a lot of self care modeled or taught, that it's okay. And I think that to Ashley's point earlier of like, you're managing the schedule as the woman in the household, you're watching, potentially watching the kids all the time. And so you feel like you have less and less space for it, but especially if you're leading a group and going through your own journey because we encourage leaders to also be on their own journey while they're leading other people. Man, self care is just really, really important. And yeah, at the risk of sounding condescending, I'm just giving permission, like it's okay to do self care. You know, maybe it is a walk, maybe it is going to see a movie, maybe it is hanging out with a friend. Maybe it's just going outside and reading a book. Like there's plenty of ways to find, but I just think that we need to know we have permission for that.

So, Ashley, as we think of women leading groups, what are some of the best practices they can keep in mind for leading groups? Well.

This isn't one of our official best practices, but I would say women can be high emotion and wear feelings out loud. So I would say don't get sucked into the intensity of the emotions in your group. If you can respond in a calm way and empathize. But your demeanor is calm, your voice is calm. You're not, I can't believe, you know, don't get sucked in. And I feel like that's been the best thing that I can do for my grooves. Because you get people coming into group that are in all kinds of phases of crisis and emotional states and emotional maturity. Because we know that especially on the addict side, that, that emotional maturity can kind of stunt wherever your addiction picked up. And so I say if you can be calm, that's going to be a nice mirror for them, that they'll start to model that response as well. And so be calm. Be calm in the way you talk a lot of times, and especially because it's, you know, 6:00 o' clock in the morning, my family's sleeping, I talk really quiet and slow and you know, the lights are kind of dim and it's very soft. It's not this. I'm a high energy person, but that's not how I'm always running my groups. If the tone doesn't feel like that's appropriate. And then again, start on time, end on time. I mean, I keep my group on schedule because as soon as I wane from that, they'll pick up on that. And so if I do something like this morning where I woke up 10 minutes before I needed to be on group and I kind of got rolling a little bit late by like five minutes, I apologize and said, I apologize for taking five minutes of your guys's time. And now that means that our time's gonna be a little shorter. And I'm really sorry about that. But with that being said, that means I need you each to stick to a seven minute check in so we can be done with the check in part by seven o'. Clock. And so if I break any of the guidelines, I own them, to show them that it's not okay and also to show them that I'm noticing right away. And so that produces a culture of when women can't make it to group. Like I had one in the past that said, it's my birthday this weekend, people are taking, taking me out of town, I can't make it to group, I feel really bad. And I said, do your homework ahead of the time so you can be guilt free on your birthday. Tell your group ahead of the time, you know, ahead of time that you finished your lesson. These were your highlights from it. Share your faster scale, make sure you're keeping up with your calls. And by the time group came, she felt really excited about that. And so model that those guidelines are important and I think, and then also just your demeanor of being calm and even if it's something you don't understand, say let me find out for you and I'll get back to you. And yeah, just, just try to keep yourself apart a little bit in that way, in bringing them to more emotional health.

Yeah. I think one word that comes to mind is just consistency. Knowing that consistency communicates a lot to your group. If you're, you know, and it's not even just are you on time every single week, but are you showing up ready, are you modeling going first? Are you that really? Because I think consistency creates a safe place, creates a sense of security, that it's okay for me. I feel good here sharing because I know my leader consistently shows up for us and leads conversation and goes to the guidelines. So I just think philosophically that's one major thing that I think helps. Especially when women are going through this really difficult recovery is its own thing. But specifically betrayal trauma, they're looking for security anywhere they can find it. And so as a leader, there's a lot that you can do to stay consistent and create that safe first place.

Yeah, I think in addition to those, I mean those are important, the owning your weaknesses, consistency, keeping a healthy emotional separation from other people's stories. Because I think especially in women's groups, there is a tendency for it to be, if you're in a betrayal group, it can be heavy. And if, if you're someone that does get really sucked into someone else's story and feeling their pain, I mean, it's good to empathize and it's good to be present with people, but at the end of the group, you have to be able to lay some of that down and let that be their story. Because the encouragement that I would give and this is, I think for any new group leader, the best thing you can do to lead well is just be all in on your own recovery and be kind of just doing it on display for others to watch what you're doing. It's amazing how then they'll just do it too. And I feel like when I led my first group, I'd only been through one group and I didn't really feel like I knew what I was doing, but that was encouragement I got from the team here was just keep doing what you're doing and invite people to follow along. And so as I was consistent about, I had done my faster scale and I had thought it through and I would even say things like, I don't totally know if this is accurate because I was feeling a whole bunch of stuff. But what I landed on under anxiety was, you know, this. And I said, I'm just doing my best to answer it. According to this. I think that helped people see, like, oh, Nick, Nick's just doing the work. He's diving in and doing his best, and he's not getting all technical and worried if he did it right or wrong. He's still making a good effort. Because I think then as group members, they felt the same way. And as I made my phone calls, you know, it was amazing how many times you call someone and they say, oh, well, since you did your check in, would it be okay if I did mine? And so without ever trying to lead someone to make phone calls, I had helped them make a phone call because I'd done mine. And so I think all that to say, when you're leading a group, especially if you feel newer at it, you. You're not really sure if you're doing it the right way. Just be all in on your recovery and then be sharing that. Share your answers, do your phone calls, share your homework. It's going to be far more effective at facilitating others to do the same thing than you could possibly realize. And really, I think it's what makes you a good leader. The best leaders I've had are always engaged. And the ones that were difficult to follow are people like, well, I didn't really get mine done. But, you know, you guys go ahead and share your answer like, are you really with us in this? Or are you just, you know, kind of fulfilling a role? So. So keep that in mind?

Totally. Yeah. One other thing that comes to mind, and I would just say this, that you don't have to be a betrayal trauma or recovery expert to be a good leader. And I think sometimes you need to hear that, that you don't have to put that pressure on yourself. And I think that that's an extension of what you're saying, Nick, that you don't have to do everything perfectly. That that's not what leadership is. Leadership isn't modeling that. But just I feel like as a leader I have often needed to hear, you don't have to be perfect. And it's not your responsibility that these people heal. You're just helping facilitate the healing that's available to them. Okay, so I kind of love this question just because it can tend to be humorous a little bit. But what are some things that we want to avoid when leading women's groups? Like what are the no nos that we want to make sure people know about?

We don't want to be man bashers. We don't even know as the man basher group. I've heard that before. Oh, that group is just a bunch of complaining about men. And so I think a way, a way to avoid that, especially in the betrayal groups that we stick to, reading the questions and the answers that are in the workbook, because I would like to say that we're not man bashers in our material. And so some of that may be coming if somebody's offshooting and having a really bad week and going off on a tangent or elaborating on how bad they hate somebody or that jerk shouldn't have done that to you. And so I would keep the tone of the group very positive and self focused. I mean, it can still be painful, but keep those tangents to a minimum and keep people to the group questions that are in the workbook to avoid that. Let's see some of the other challenges for women's groups. Again, some of the calls that we'll get are bringing children to the group, bringing babies to the group, having babies on camera. So all you can do to set that up so that you can have some quiet time. I mean, just because you are home doesn't mean that, you know, you want kids in the background, even if it's a zoom meeting. Like right now, my kids are getting an enormous amount of iPad time because at least you can't hear them or see them. So do you know, do what you need to do to make sure that you have that privacy? Yeah, I can't Think of any more that are specific to women because like we say about addiction and our groups, it's that these are people problems, men feel betrayed, men are addicts. And the same with leading that we are people. So men, I would never say women are more emotional than men. We may show it in a different way, but men have feelings too and feel hurt and performance and, you know, acceptance and shame. So a lot of these apply to men and women.

Yeah.

You know, I think that brings up a really good idea for churches that aren't able to provide childcare. You know, because if someone calls to your group for a women's group and says, you know, can I bring my three kids with me? It's like, well, no, that's not going to work for you. It's not going to work for the rest of the group. But at the same time, I think that's a reality. If you have a women's group with a lot of young moms in it, childcare falls through, plans fall apart, kids get sick. And so it may be thinking ahead of time, what is our contingency plan? If you've been planning group all week and your babysitter's coming, but then your babysitter calls an hour before and says, I can't make it, what is your approach as a group? Does it just mean that woman has to meet that miss that week? Or could you have some contingencies of we were an in person group, but that week we let her join on a zoom video and we've got that set up, we're ready for it. Or maybe if you are meeting in a church, you have a room that's available that has, you know, it's kid appropriate, kids toys in it and maybe all the iPads. Yeah, exactly. Maybe your church has. I know our church did. We had a few people on a call list that just said, hey, if you need childcare for something at the church and it's suddenly, you know, one of those emergencies of we've got 20 more kids than we expected, give me a call. Things like that, that just you could try to help women, not just Ms. Because like, well, one of my kids is sick, I'm not coming, or the babysitter didn't come, I can't make it because if that's the case, you'll probably have a lot more sporadic attendance because that's real life. So I think having a plan helps. The other thing I would say is something to avoid, and this is more from the maybe church level or announcement level. And it's feedback I've heard from women. It's when the women's groups maybe get a certain they're known for something and women feel like, well, I thought that was just a group for married women so none of the single women are going. Or I thought that was only a group for wives who were going through an affair. It was a fair recovery. Or I've heard someone talk about what was so the way they promoted it and the leader was all flowery and so feminine. They were just like, I just blah. I didn't want it. So I think you want to be careful that your group doesn't get such a certain reputation that women that don't fit that won't come. Because if it's a group for women who are processing their broken sexuality, you want that to include any woman at your church that are eligible to come and not self disqualify because they get a sense the group isn't for them. So just be mindful of how you promote and invite women so that they really feel free to come.

It's good, guys. Nice.

Yeah, I like that.

So let's turn the script a little bit. Ashley. A lot of this has been for women to think about and women's groups, but for men, would you talk to them for a few minutes? What are things that men could do to encourage women's groups and women's group leaders in their churches?

Well, a couple of the obvious. Have as much support that you can offer as possible, whether that's childcare, private room, giving them the announcements they need funds if they need it, you know, for different things, training opportunities, those kinds of things. For husbands, just understanding that this is a family systems issue. So all that you can do to take stress off and make her feel like it's worth her time leaving the house, you know, she's not coming back to chaos and anger every time. That's not going to encourage her to continue to go to group. Another one would be specifically for the betrayed spouses. Things like, well, you have issues too. You have things to work on too. I would phrase it in a way of I know I've hurt you. And there's this support group for women who have been betrayed by their husband's behaviors that I would love for you to be a part of so that you can have the support you need and deserve while I'm working through recovery. Would be a way, way better way to say it than you've got stuff to work on too or you're not dealing with me. Yeah. So. And that's actually very common language. So, you know, John didn't say it exactly like that, but he did say something like, you need to get some help. And I was like, I don't need any. You're like, I was crazy. You don't say that. So you say, I messed up. And I know that. And I. I know you wouldn't have to go to this group if it weren't for the betrayal that I caused. And so I'm sorry about that. But I want to support you and I'll take care of the kids or I'll, you know, so. So really, the way you present it can to make. Make a lot of difference, too, from that personal spouse's side.

Yeah. I feel like this might rub some people in their, you know, church internal organization, leadership structure. But this is getting weird the way you're saying this. I know it's something I was saying in my.

I rub their internal church organization.

Like, what are you talking.

Oh, the wrong way?

Well, you just let me share already.

Get to it.

No, I think oftentimes in the churches I've been involved with, I see a lot of men's leadership teams get together and discuss what are we doing for men and women. And I think that there is an element of. Not even an element. There is a necessity to have women at that table having that conversation. And so that's what I mean is that you may have some people in the church who's like, oh, no, women aren't in leadership. And it's like, well, if that's where you're at, that's totally fine. That's your conviction. However, inviting them to have a voice in how groups are announced and how many groups we're going to have, where the groups are going to meet, and inviting their perspective, I think is really valuable. And so that's what I mean by rubbing someone's internal organization of church the wrong way.

I can't believe we said it three times. You know, the word that came to me kind of connected to that was, if you're a man in a church that is doing men's purity stuff, whether it's Conquer or Seven Pillars or you're doing SI101 for the men, or using other kind of group material, group studies, you need to advocate for the women. You need to be willing to go to your pastor or the men's leader who's doing the men's stuff and say, what are we doing for women? You know, and use the stats, you know, because your church has probably used the stats to promote the men's group, you know, if you're doing conquer series, 60 to 70% of men in the church are struggling. And if you're in that group, for you to go to the leader and say, you know, if 60 to 70% of US men are struggling, that means 60 to 70% of the marriages are struggling. What are we doing for the women?

Yeah.

Or the stat that we use that 25 to 30% of women in the church are struggling with unwanted sexual behavior. What are we doing to help them? And I think the power you have, because you're maybe in recovery yourself, you're already making yourself available to what your church is offering. I think you really have a role to play in encouraging, hey, we need something for women. And even if your wife isn't ready to go or you're not married, I think the fact that men start to step up and say something, it just, it makes a difference. Because if it's only this, a couple of gals who are mentioning it once in a while, it'd be nice. And could we do that? Just, I mean, keep in mind, for a gal to go to what is more often than not going to be a male pastor, senior pastor, solo pastor, the only pastor, and ask about starting women's groups, that's immediately kind of an odd conversation for that male pastor. He's like, well, you're not, not always sure what to say. It's. He's not going to lead it for sure. So I've got to think about leaders versus if, if another man can come to the pastor and say, what are we doing? How can I help make that happen? It's just going to move the conversation forward. So I'm not saying women shouldn't go to their pastor if he's a man and ask for help, but there's, there's a dynamic there that if it's not currently happening, there may be some gender issues that a staff or a pastor haven't worked through very well and in how they support groups. And so as a man, be an advocate for the women in your church and say, we need groups, because I think you could really, really help kind of change the tide there.

Totally.

Yeah. That's really good advice. I love that.

So what are some final encouragements that we'd give to women who are leading betrayal and beyond or unravel groups in their church or community?

I like what Nick said earlier, that you may feel under qualified, but you're probably not. And we like to figure out where you're starting from if you have A passion to lead it maybe you're starting with some training. It may be you want to lead, but you don't want to lead online or you don't want to. You don't want, you know, have the capability in church, and you just want to start a little group with some of your friends. So wherever you're at, I think if you're feeling a passion to lead, even if you don't have betrayal or sexual addiction as part of your story, I think there's still a spot for anybody who has that heart to lead. And also, along with what Nick says, we do get guys that reach out and say, I run the men's groups and I know we need something for women. And a lot of our responses. Do you have any women who are just good leaders that come to your mind or any wives that come to your mind? And when they connect them with us, we're able to just start with these women. And they may not even know much about pure desire, but they're good leaders or they're wives of some of the men in some of the groups, and we're able to start working with them. So just make that connection and make that first step. And like Nick said, if you're a guy and you know some women that would be willing to lead, connect them with us and we'll take it from there and we can support them and, you know, get into all the nitty gritty details of leading women's groups.

Yes. And my final encouragement would be, you are not alone. You are not alone. If you are a woman in your church and you are on the betrayal side, I guarantee you, you are not the only woman who is dealing with betrayal. I mean, unless you're like, in a church of two people, you and your husband, then you might be the only. But if you're in a church of any size more than two, you are not alone. And the enemy, I think, tries to say, you are the only woman who's had this happen. Your husband is the only one with these issues. Like, no, no, you are not alone. And if you're dealing with some sexual brokenness in your life where you've got addictive issues, you've got porn struggles, you've got issues in relationships, romance novels, like, you are not alone. You're not the only woman who's struggling. And if you can find through God's help, the courage to raise up your voice and say, hey, can we start a group for women? You're going to start to find some of those other women, and then as you move into leadership, you're not alone there either, because we're here to help. We can connect you to other leaders that maybe are leading groups and churches in your area or through other regions of the country. You're not alone. And so whether you're on that side of. Well, I think I'm the only one. I shouldn't start groups, or you are starting groups, but you feel like you're alone. I think we just want you to know there's support, there's help, there's. And you're not the only one. And if God can use you to open that door, I think you'll find out pretty quickly that there are others who will walk through it and say, thank you. Thank you for starting this group. I've been praying for it, and I didn't know we had one, but I'm so excited. Thank you for having the courage to start this group.

Yeah. I would just say the brokenness that you've experienced uniquely qualifies you to help other women heal. I think of 2nd Corinthians 1:3:7, talking about how when God comforts us, it gives us the ability to comfort. Comfort other people. And I think that that's. That's one of the beautiful ways that God uses or reuses what we've experienced. So just know that you are uniquely qualified because of your story to help other people and that you can have confidence in that. Oh, man. Go. Oh, you got more. Let's do it.

No, let's do it. I just want to know how many people. And feel free to respond in the comments. Could not stop hearing. Is it Carrie Jobe? You are not alone as Nick was. I feel like you should say that. Go ahead, Nick. We know you can sing, and we're.

Gonna end this episode.

Okay.

It's. I am not alone.

There you go. Okay.

Yeah.

We'll put the YouTube in the show. Notes. Every church, it is clear, and we believe this wholeheartedly, that every church needs women's groups for unwanted sexual behavior and betrayal trauma. It's not enough to just have groups for men. And this goes really. If you can offer both men's and women's groups, this goes a really long way in creating that safe place in that safe culture in your church where people can admit they need help. And, man, that's the first step to getting help, is admitting that you need it. So we hope our conversation today gives you confidence in some next steps, getting women's groups going and how to lead them well in your church and community. Ashley, thank you for what you do here. And thanks for being with us today.

Thanks for having me.

And wherever you're at on your journey, Pure Desire is here to help create a roadmap for your healing. If you or someone you know is impacted by sexual brokenness or betrayal trauma, go to PureDesire.org and let's start the healing journey today. Don't forget to subscribe to the podcast. Each week we put out new content to help you on the road to healing and freedom. And lastly, never stop being healthy.