250 - Taboo Topics

You're listening to the Pure Desire podcast, Your safe place to find hope, healing, and freedom from sexual addiction, betrayal, and relationship issues. Hello. Hello. I'm your host, Trevor Windsor, and you're listening to episode 250 of the Pure Desire podcast here joining me, as always, is my co host, Nick Stumbo.

Go Hawks.

Does that make you sad?

A little bit, yes. That's part of the discussion for later.

Okay, okay. Before we get into that, and I'm about to see you cry, I wanted to just admit right here, I never thought we'd get to 250. We're at a quarter of a thousand episodes.

I want to know, why did you not think we'd make it this year? I just didn't know you didn't have faith in us.

It wasn't like I was like, hey, man, I can't wait to do 250 and then keep going and keep going.

I have a negative perspective. Right. Like, we're probably going to fail and bomb out.

Had you ever done podcasts before we started? No, you hadn't. Which is why I was like, well, we'll see how it goes. I'm just saying I'm trying to celebrate and I feel like you're just raining and dropping rocks.

I almost changed my intro mid course there just because it was like 250. This is crazy. Like, it's coming up. Maybe we need to pause and have a bigger celebration at the five year mark. Because that would technically be 260, right? 52 a year. Five years. So celebrate 250 or five years. Like both feelings. Yeah, it's. It's a long time. I'm. I mentioned in episode 249, like we're coming up on five years. And even when I said it, it was like, whoa, holy cow. Like, we've been at this and it's been fun and yeah, we're at 250 now. Pretty crazy.

It is wild.

Where will the stop the count stop? I don't know.

I don't.

But I think I will not be surprised if we hit 500 or whatever else, you know, because, like, as long as people tell us it's helping them and they're getting something out of it, we'll probably keep doing it 100%.

We'll keep doing it. Absolutely. Okay. I'm really excited to see you cry and tell the sob story. Why'd you say go Hawks?

Because we're talking about taboo topics today, Trevor. And discussing Russell Wilson any further is kind of a taboo topic for me, as some of our Listeners know I'm a big. Well, this is the interesting thing. I've told people I'm a big Seahawks fan, but I actually don't know if I'm a big Seahawks fan or a big Russell Wilson.

You're having an identity.

I am, because I didn't really start cheering for them until he became their starter. So for 10 years, I've been a Seahawks Russell Wilson fan. And quite frankly, I am in the anger stage of the grief cycle. So don't bring it up unless you're either ready for a lengthy conversation or for me to get emotional. So I probably won't cry because I'm not into acceptance. I'm in anger. Just the whole situation frustrates me. But into today's topic.

Okay, so we had Richmore.

We are talking about taboo topics today. Things that are hard to talk about.

Yeah, absolutely. We had Rich Moore on, who is our associate director of men's groups. And he just is so experienced in leading group and being in group. He's been in it for literally decades at this point. And I joke that it's maybe a little bit more than that in the episode, but we had him on to talk about it because he's had so much experience in group.

Yeah. And if any listeners are concerned, like, oh, my goodness, are they gonna actually talk about all these taboo topics and describe them and list them?

Sort of.

We do very little of that. And where we do we use proper terminology. It's not meant to have shock value or get you to think about things you've never thought about. It's more to take a step back and realize that kind of thing probably will happen in group. That because we're sharing the dark side of our human experience, things are probably going to come up that are messy outside of our experience. And the question is, what do we do? How do we handle that well, and what if it's our story? And so I think this episode, I'm just really looking forward to people hearing it because I think the other thing that we expressed, this is part of everyone's story to some degree or another, that there's a part of our story that we'd rather not tell because it feels a little bit darker. And today's just an attempt to say, you know what, that's actually part of the healing journey. Finding ways and places that it's safe to delve into that and then for people to respond to it in appropriate, healthy ways.

Yeah. And it is a powerful episode. I think you definitely will enjoy it. But before we get to it subscribe to the podcast. If you're not subscribed to the podcast, how do you even listen to us? I mean, that's like my first, first question. Secondly, you can find us on all the major platforms. You give us a review, help people see the podcast. It means a lot to us. You can also follow us on social media, a Facebook, Twitter and Instagramuredesirepdmi. You can also find this full episode up on YouTube. Just search pure Desire Ministries. Nick Specifically, when talking about elements of leading a group, things like taboo topics, it's hard to have confidence going into these situations. And leading groups can be challenging. And man, we want people to feel confident leading pure desire groups. And because of that, dum dum dum, we have created something called the Pure Desire Group leader training.

Yes, we are super excited about this online video course that people can stream at home, at work, on their phone, like wherever they have time to get trained, they can watch it. And we are excited because this has been well over a year in the making, the planning. I mean, in terms of group experience, we're pouring, you know, decades of experience from our groups team into it. But last year we had a contract with a Christian film company that does professional video. It looks amazing. And we had, you know, five, six of our team just share all the ins and outs of leading group well. And so what we want for you, our listener, is to benefit from our experience and to feel confidence about that you too can lead group well. And so we hope you'll go through the group leader training that you'll get your friends, all the group leaders in your church, and whether you've never led group or you've led group a hundred times, that you'll go through and learn and grow in your confidence to lead groupwell.

Yes. So if you want to pre order the group leader training, go to PureDesire.org GLT and get your course today. All right, here is our time with Rich Moore talking about taboo topics. Rich, thanks for being back, man. Appreciate it.

Great to be here.

We had a listener request an episode on taboo topics and when they come up in pure desire groups and you were the first person we thought of, how's that make you feel? No, but we figured you've been leading groups for like 400 years, so you've probably seen a lot of this stuff play out. No offense. 400 years is a long time. You look great. But with all your experience in leading groups, we know you've experienced some of these and have talked to as one of our associate Group directors, you see that so often too, in phone calls addressing this stuff. So we wanted to just put a whole episode together for it and just talk through what taboo topics are. Kind of how we experience them, but then also how we address them in groups. So historically, what are some of the taboo topics that you have seen that come up in pure desire groups?

You know, as looking over the questions today, I was like, gosh, five, ten years ago, everything, every guy that everything we came into group was taboo.

Yeah, it really felt.

It really didn't matter.

It's a niche, niche thing now. Yeah.

Because when you think of taboo, that is, I'm not going to tell anybody. I could keep it a secret. Is the worst possible thing ever. And then. So what's a taboo topic? I think that's just a really. Maybe a matter of opinion. But I mean, everything that we struggle with is taboo because we've kept it a secret. Secret for so long.

Yeah.

So I think it's just a matter of, okay, what are those fine line topics, you know, borderline issues that can be. That could be a little bit deeper where it makes a group, it can make the group setting a little uncomfortable, which I've had many of those.

Yeah, for sure.

Yeah. I think we're looking at topics that feel for a group member like it's outside of the normal, you know, and I would put that in air quotes, normal struggle. Because what's normal is constantly changing and it may even be dictated by the kind of group you're in in the age group, the socioeconomic status of people in the group. Like, what's normal in one group may be totally different in another. But. But I think in general there are kind of some socially acceptable even struggles now where. Yeah, lust and pornography. Okay, we all struggle with lust and pornography. So if it's outside of some of those norms, we can feel a particular layer of shame. And in that sense, it feels taboo. Like, what will happen if I bring this up? And so we think of things and, you know, without getting overly graphic or detailed in this episode, we do want to try to call some things what they are. But everything from same sex attraction to gender issues, cross dressing, physical contact between family members, maybe stuff we did as kids with other kids that, you know, we look back as adults now and we're like, I can't believe we did that, or that was gross, or that was a family member. And so it feels taboo to bring that up. It may even go into things like fetishes to the kind of pornography that somebody has been Using or the kinds of objects, scenarios, or situations where someone would use as part of their acting out, as part of their fantasy or role playing. And there just are a whole. I mean, we couldn't even list them all to get to all the particulars. But I think that's why we want to do this episode. And what I think is really going to be a dominant theme here is how the taboo nature of things keeps us silent. But we actually need to see how together we are in those feelings that I feel like every single person has an area of their story as they think through this episode. They're like, oh, yeah, that part of my story feels taboo.

And honestly, it was the most powerful experience I've had in group was when I shared one of these things that I thought was taboo. I had shared that when I was 10, 11, somewhere in there, I had a same sex experience with another guy. And I remember, I mean, and I've told this story many times. The paper's in my hand and it's shaking and I'm so nervous sharing my disclosure with my conquer group. And I just remember knowing this was something I was going to take to my grave, like no one was ever going to know. And then you share it. And when I was met with, and we'll get into this more and more, but when I was met with, hey, man, me too, I had the same experience. The shame just released out of the room. It was gone. Like, I still felt bad and still carried some of that shame, but overall, I felt like I was no longer alone in that disgusting maybe thing that I thought was a part of my story. And so how we respond to taboo topics is really important.

So, rich, when you think about groups, how often would you say that taboo topics like same sex and gender issues, fetishes, how often do these kind of things come up in a group environment?

In my groups specifically, probably every single group. And I'd say at least half the guys.

Are your groups unique or do you feel like that's the case? In most groups.

It could be unique just because of how my story and how I, like you said we're worth sharing. My story is, quote, one of those kind of taboo topics that we just don't want to share. So when I share that, it really kind of opens up the door. And I think initially it's like, guys are like, well, I'm not quite like that, but I think it just kind of opens the door. But I think in general, I mean, when it comes down to it, every guy struggles with so many different things that one guy might be just looking at porn, one might. Like, like you were saying, Nick, there's so many different things that they could be doing. I've had guys in my groups with everything. I mean, across the board, like, literally too much to name. I would say recently, the same sex attraction, that. That's a big one. And I think because I was, I'm able to share my story up front. It just kind of levels the playing field a little bit. And, you know, when we're working with leaders, that's what we want them to do, is we want them to, hey, let's share your story up front to kind of ease the, you know, the tension a little bit and. And get guys on the same page. And. And it usually does that. But there are some things that guys, you could tell, they want to share.

Yeah.

And they're just. They will start sharing and then I can pick up, like, as soon as they get to the point, they draw back. So when I see guys that are doing that, I will pull them aside, have an individual conversation, maybe walk with them through it. And then. But yeah, I mean, across the board, every group I've done For the last 26 years, there's been those topics, all sorts of them.

Yeah. And I mean, like, taboo is also contingent on the culture that you're in. You know, like, you may go to. One person, might go to a church where sexuality is talked about and sexual brokenness is a topic that they address and they have pure desire groups where it maybe is less taboo to have a pornography addiction. Not necessarily. Okay. But not as taboo. It's part of the language. But then another church who. They never talk about sexuality. And so all of it, the entire gambit is going to be all taboo in that sense. So a lot of it is going to be dependent too, on just the culture of your church and the culture, because maybe your group doesn't have everyone from the same church too. And so you may have different levels of what's taboo based on the culture they're from.

And then also with online groups, it's a whole different thing because literally you have different cultures. I have a lot of groups where I have international. So what is, like, literally kind of taboo. No go here is like, that's just normal family tradition or whatever you want to call it. That's just what they practice.

Yeah.

So they don't think it's anything wrong with that.

Right.

But here it's like, no, that's, you know.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I would echo that experience of What Rich said that I think in every group, and whether you call it taboo topics or maybe just think of it as someone sharing things they've never shared with anyone else before because it feels particularly dark, shameful, humiliating, you know, whatever the word or phrase or emotion is they're feeling, I would say that's going to happen. In fact, in some ways, we hope that happens in group because that's really what creates healing. That if we're able to share our whole story safely in a supportive environment, that's what leads to healing. And, you know, there's a phrase that has been used in recovery of the devil's in the details. And it often is the details of our story where shame resides. And if we can't get out of those details, we're probably going to stay stuck. And so as group members and group leaders, I just think we need to be open to that. And it's why we so stress group confidentiality, that what's happens and said in the room stays in the room. It's why we emphasize the memo of understanding up front. Because we do want group members to be clear on when am I sharing something potentially illegal or that has to be reported, and when am I just learning to be honest about some of those dark places? Because for some people in our group, there may be those two things are the same. They're both. It's both taboo and illegal. And in that case, you need to really cover that memo of understanding up front so that that individual realizes that's going to make the group unsafe. If I share that here. Because now they're all mandatory reporters for something I've just shared. We want to, you know, really create avenues to meet with therapists, counselors, pastors to address things that may be illegal. But in group, you know, you're covering your 10 worst moments. You're writing up a rough draft of your full sexual history. You're sharing secrets that you've been keeping. You're sharing things you've done that have hurt your spouse or people around you. I mean, over the course of our workbooks, you're going to get into topics that if you're being honest and it's your first group experience, you're probably going to say, at some point, I don't think I've ever told this to another person and to you, that will feel taboo and there will be a message going on underneath that says, don't share this. Just like you said, Trevor, don't go there. They're going to reject you. Don't put it out there. But if, if you don't get it out there, it'll be an area the devil can continue to prod and poke and say, well, if they know this, they're going to reject you. So again, a long answer to say. I think it comes up in every group where confidential, where confidentiality and safety has really been established, because that's what we're looking for, is to unearth the stuff that needs to come out so that God can really lead us down a healing and transformation process.

So if these things are so if this is just a reality of being in group, what does it look like to respond in the best way? Like what kind of response? Because I know for some, you know, maybe some are listening, that if someone in group, if they've never experienced or had a friend who struggles with same sex attraction, right, and that comes up in group, they might not know how to respond. What's the best way? So when taboo stuff like this comes up in group, how do we respond in the best way?

You know, I think we really have to make sure the very first group, because there's really kind of two parts to this answer. One is how does the leader respond? And then how do we coach the group members or not coach, but assist them and let them know. I think first as a group leader that we accept anybody in the group. I mean, it's regardless of what our struggle is. I'm not so worried of how they're acting out per se. Like, you know, we talk about the roots, we want to look at the roots and not the fruit. So I'll talk about that in the first couple weeks before we even get into the material. And then so when stuff does come up, you know, my first job is to love and accept and show grace to this guy who's probably been beat up by many people, probably beat himself up for years, you know, has never wanted to tell anybody because the fear of being rejected and now he's in a group. And so that's why I think it's really important to set that tone early on. And then the same thing for group members. I'll just tell them, say, hey, we're all going to hear a lot of stuff in here. And then that's when I kind of start with my story. And this is my story. I said, you have a story, you have a story. So we all have a story. It just looks different. But at the core, we all struggle with the same core issues and we're just choosing to act out differently. And then I'll say If. If it does become uncomfortable, then let me know and then we'll have a discussion outside of group. Yeah, I think that's the best way to. To get them up front to let them know that, like you said, Nick, after we go through all this material, there's a lot of stuff that's probably going to come out.

Yeah, well. And I think in those cases, it's always good to lead with grace and gratitude. Grace and gratitude, you know, creating the. This is a safe space. We're so proud of you for sharing that. I know that took a lot of courage. Thank you for having the willingness to trust us with that part of your story. Just, you know, we love you. We accept you. That grace and gratitude encourages other people to do the same thing. Because like you were saying earlier, Rich, if we as a leader can kind of crack open that door, that helps. Or if someone else in the group, you know, we're going to go through a lesson on secrets, and someone's going to get bold and maybe share something they never shared. And the rest of the group is watching how that will be handled. Because if it's handled with silence and, like, everyone goes, okay, next person, it's awkward. Then everyone's like, oh, okay, we're not going to share to that level here. But if someone goes deep and the group leader or group members, like, man, way to go. I've been there. I'm so proud of you. That's awesome you shared that. Then others are like, oh, well, I guess I can go there too. So that's encouraging. At the same time, I would encourage for group members, group leaders especially, these are areas you want to encourage group members to use accurate terminology. Because with taboo topics, we've often. We've not talked about them, we've not learned how to say it. So we might joke about it, we might use derogatory terms or slang, and that just actually makes it worse for everybody. So you may need to call a timeout and say, hey, I know what you're talking about, but could we call that inappropriate sexual contact or use the actual term for that body part? Or you may even have to just interject and say, hey, this is getting a little too detailed. Yeah, because you don't have to go into the details of a fetish in group. A group member could say, I've and I've been struggling with a fetish. And maybe they even are able to name just the category of fetish. You know, feet or whatever it is. They don't need to get particular. So I think That's a role in addition to leading with grace and gratitude, then making sure to kind of guide and guard that process of, hey, let's, let's not get too detailed, but let's use accurate terms. So we call something what it is. Because I, I also think that's part of emptying it of its power. When we start calling something what it is versus using the childhood slang or the names the boys used on the playground, all the other stuff that kind of becomes part of those trapped memories, I think they lose their power and we just call it what it is. And that can help everybody.

Yeah. And I think for me, this is a moment. This is probably the most vulnerable moment of this person's life, potentially in group, sharing this one thing they were never going to share with someone before and knowing that our response is going to dictate whether that person is going to ever share that again with someone else. May I remember the first time I had a group member come to me and share about same sex attraction. Remember we were eating tacos at this restaurant and I just felt like something was coming. And I, because of the experience I had had in group before that where these guys responded well, I felt like, okay, you know, it's okay. Like, I have what it takes to respond well to this. I, I have diminished my shame and my story to some degree. And I remember him telling me that and I don't think I outright was like gratitude and grace, but I just listened to him and I wasn't like, oh, wow or man, you know, like it wasn't this big reaction. And I remember even feeling in that moment that it was just this safe and secure space that almost even got like locked into place. Like, this is an okay place now for you to share this. And I know for sure that that group member has been able to share and lead other groups and share that part of his story. And so I think for me, we have to almost, and I don't know why I get this visual, but just like the most fragile egg you can think of that you have to handle with so much care because if you drop it, you can't put it back in the bag. It's not going to come back together. And so that's just been my experience that as gently and as fragile and as gracious as we can respond, the better.

Yeah.

So when we're talking about these taboo topics and, you know, unique aspects of everyone's story, it's likely rich that in the course of a group, someone's going to share something that Maybe makes us, as the leader feel a little bit uncomfortable or out of our element. So how can we handle that?

Well, in group, it's a great question. You know, I just, I'll just before I respond especially, and I've had to happen a few times, like I said, most of the time I can. I'm able to kind of process pretty well just because of my own story. But I won't be like, as soon as Trevor's done saying something, I'm not, like, quick to like, oh, hey, yeah, you know, I'll just kind of pause for a moment. Oh, wow. Yeah. Oh, wow. Yeah, I'll just kind of pause them and then like you said, hey, I really appreciate you sharing that. And then I'll just really, like, lift that person up because they've just shared the most horrific thing in their life that they think is horrific, and then they're at the lowest point of their life at that point. In group, there's two things that can happen in that moment. If you do the, oh, wow, yeah, that guy's going to shut down. The rest of the group is going to see that and they're going to like, well, I'm not saying nothing because the leader's acting like that. And now your group's not going to go again anywhere. You know, you set the tone with one guy, then that just, that trickles down to everybody else. But I think, you know, there's safety in that. I always encourage guys when they're sharing that. And like you said, Trevor, I think if they're getting to a certain part, you know, I'll tell them to kind of pump the brakes a little bit. And then if I feel there's more to come, that shouldn't be spoken in group, but I always make them feel welcome because I know what it's like to just walk in a room and feel like there's people staring at you and judging you before they even know your story, you know, and it's scary when we walk in there and being a group leader is not easy. We carry a lot of stuff, you know, that comes in the group and we have to learn how to make an inviting for everybody in there.

I think one of the maybe lies that might be too strong of a term, but maybe an assumption I felt as a group leader especially. And I mean, you know, I was calling you every week when I was leading my first group, like, hey, I got this situation. Help me out. And that was 100 years ago because you've been leading for 400 years. Just a Reminder. But I felt this pressure that I have to, as a group leader, be the first one to respond or I have to say the right thing in that moment. I think it's okay to sit for a second. You don't have to be the first person to say something. And honestly, something that makes you uncomfortable might not make your other group member uncomfortable. And they're gonna be the one that says, you know what, man, thank you so much for sharing that. I really, really appreciate that.

That.

And so for me, taking that kind of pressure off of my shoulders that I don't have to always respond and always have to say the right thing can even help me if I get uncomfortable. And also understanding that I'm part of a group, I am not the group myself. And so just allowing that space for maybe other group members to step up too, could be helpful.

That's important because I tell my groups all the time. I said, I'm just the facilitator. I said, I can talk the whole group if you want me to. So I will pause and let every. My hope is that these guys are all going to start asking questions and follow up and to go back and forth and. And it, you know, it takes a while, but when they start doing that, literally, I'm just moving on to the next question and guiding as they're. They're literally owning the group and managing the conversation, which is great. And that's how we develop leaders.

Yeah. And I think the question is also, why is it making me uncomfortable? Is it making me uncomfortable? Because it's. It's just not my experience. It's outside of the kind of things I've encountered in that kind of circumstance. I would encourage a leader to remember you don't have to understand something to be able to empathize with them. It doesn't have to be your experience for you to be able to say, man, I bet that's caused you to carry a lot of shame. And I know what that's like. I've been there. Or I'm really proud of you for sharing something for the first time. I remember when I did that, man, that made me nervous. And you did great. So if I'm just uncomfortable because it's not my area of understanding, I think lean into it and trust that God can still use you. If I'm feeling uncomfortable because it is becoming overly detailed, overly graphic, it's getting awkwardly precise or descriptive. If you're feeling awkward, it's probably the group is too. And as the leader, you need to step in. You need to call a little time out. And I coach groups up that way at the beginning from the first group to say, hey, if anyone starts sharing and we're feeling triggered because they're getting too detailed, they're sharing too much information, any one of us can just call a timeout. We just go, oh, time. Can we, can we just back off the detail a little bit? Or can we maybe get a little more general here? So if you're feeling that as a leader, you need to step in and be able to, you know, direct them towards, say, hey, you're doing a great job sharing, you're just getting a little too detailed here. And I think it's more info than the group needs. So keep that in mind. And then the last thing that came to mind in terms of if we're feeling uncomfortable, think about your face, right? Because what's on your face communicates a lot. And so if they're sharing something that to you is uncomfortable or weird, but. But it's appropriate sharing, you're meaning from across that your face is scowling or starting to look disgusted or surprised, like, the group member will pick up on that and the sharing will stop. And so I think if you're feeling it internally, just remind yourself, like, nod, pay attention. You know, don't, don't try to fix it. Just stay present. Those kind of words to coach yourself up can really help and encourage that group member, like, oh, this is okay that I'm sharing. Because he's nodding, right. He's looking at me and I'm going to keep going. And that can really be sometimes the courage a group member needs. Just keep sharing something they've never shared before.

I might add to that too is like, if, if you're sharing that with me is to pay attention to the other guys. Because if every single other guy is looking down at the floor.

Yeah.

And their body language is like, whoa, you know, I might, you know, might just, hey, you know, why don't we just take a moment to kind of regroup a little bit and then. And then check in with everybody. Because there's a lot of times when guys are sharing, they themselves don't know how to process it. So they kind of emotionally will check out and just like look around, stare at the floor because they're not sure how to, they're not sure what to have on their face. So they're just like, look down and yeah, yeah.

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Yeah, that's actually what I was going to pop in and say that I think it's okay as a group leader to kind of name what's happening. I mean, I think about in my counseling, how many times Ted would look at me and say, you're kind of checking out what's going on.

Yeah.

What are you feeling? What. What thoughts are going through your mind? And it often was. There was maybe a level of pain my wife was expressing that I didn't know how to stay present for. And he was calling me back. There was maybe a statement made that had triggered shame in me. And I think in group members, you don't know. You don't want to assume they're feeling awkward. Maybe what they're feeling is I have the same story and I don't know how to listen to someone else tell my story because I'm not ready. And so I think as a group leader, just acknowledging, like, you know, Rich here is just, he's been really honest with us and I appreciate it. But I noticed as he was sharing that several of us kind of started to check out physically. And I'm wondering, how are we doing? Is, is it. You're feeling triggered? Are you. Is this something that you need to share as well. I'm just kind of inviting that to. To reaffirm to the group. This is a safe space. We want to process together. And. And maybe we all just need to take a deep breath because it was, you know, kind of a lot to take. But, yeah, let's talk a little bit about what's going on. And I think it may open up conversations you weren't expecting in a good way.

Yeah, yeah. And probably checking in with that person after group, one on one, too. Just like, hey, I want to make sure you doing okay. I know I took that pulse check. I think that would. That makes sense to me. So at what point when addressing taboo topics, should a leader seek out professional help? Like, maybe when we're a little bit outside our depth, we don't know exactly how to handle or process the information we're getting. At what point do we know, like, where's that line? When we go out and seek professional help?

And I've said this in, I think, just about every podcast I've been on, really from the beginning, I'll refer guys to counseling. I basically tell everybody in group, I say, hey, you should also get some additional counseling just because of the benefit of that. But as they start sharing and they walk through this, most of the time, I'll stop those guys. Or if I. I mean, I can usually tell when they are starting to share something that that's going to be a little dicey. Usually a couple weeks ahead of time. It's like if you pay attention, the faster scale. Right. And you can see a relapse coming. Well, as we're. As they're going through lesson to lesson to lesson, they're starting to get deeper and deeper and deeper in their story. So I'm paying attention to things that they're saying.

Yeah.

And then I'll pull them aside and I'll say, hey, I have some concerns. Just want to check with you. Is this kind of where you're headed?

Yeah.

And if not, great. And then we'll just keep. I'll help you process through that. But nine times out of ten when I do that, and if I kind of sense something going that way, they'll say, yeah, I'm just not sure how to say it. And then I'll go through the. Basically the whole legal part, especially if it's a reportable thing, I'll kind of walk them through this and like, hey, before you tell me, this is what you need to do. And then some guys will just. I just need to tell it. But at that point, I'm referring out to like pure desire counseling. Sometimes we'll refer out to like outside counseling, Especially when you get into some of these, the deep, dark, taboo topics that, you know, some clinical counseling, like psychological counseling, where a pure desire group won't be able to help that guy, they'll be able to help on some of it. But I mean, that deep stuff you just got to refer out. And then a lot of times what will happen is when the guy we refer somebody out to that, that counselor outside of a pure desire, that other counselor may not have them come back until they've processed some of the stuff just so they're able to move forward.

Yeah, I think a couple of principles. If any time you're concerned it could be a legal issue, you need to reach out to someone, whether if you're in a church, reach out to the pastor over your groups. If you're in a pure desire group, reach out to pure desire because that's where you really need clarity. Like, do we need to report here? Did this get shared? And we need to go somewhere with it because you don't want to be making that choice in isolation. Like, oh, no, that's fine. You can share that. And only to find out later, like, wow, I really should have been in contact with others. So if it's borderline, just do yourself a favor as a leader and lean on someone's expertise that goes beyond your own. The other times I think of, or the principle that come to mind is if it's a current reality of someone's story, that's a big part of their healing and you're not sure what to do with it. I think reaching out to find out, like, hey, we got someone who's, you know, maybe it's, they're, they're cross dressing weekly or they're doing things at work that are not illegal, but at work could get them fired. And I'm not real sure how we should help them. I think just getting expertise into how to handle that group member well is really important. You know, if it's being shared as part of their history or part of their story, and it's something happened a long time ago and they're not really dealing with it week in and week out, and you don't really understand what to do with it. Like just kind of watch and wait and see. Is that a big part of their story or just something they needed to process one time and one homework assignment? And in all of this, the last thing I would say is just to really Underscore again, confidentiality. You cannot break confidentiality until you know it's a reporting issue, until you know it's one of those mandatory situations. So don't go to your pastor like, hey, so and so in group last night, shared this like you've just broken confidentiality. You need to go and say an issue came up in group and I need your perspectives. This is what was shared. And obviously without any, you know, of the details and only doing it in order to get input, not because you're just gossiping or I can't believe some guy struggles with this. Like, we need to control maybe that kind of intrigue, you know, just sharing, really do it in a safe, confidential manner so that that group member has that protection. Because if it ever got back to a group that, you know, so and so pastor knew some particular taboo part of my story that I had never given permission to be shared, it's going to destroy group confidentiality for a long, long time. So just really, when you're, I want to encourage, get help, get input, get direction, but until you absolutely know it's a reporting issue, do not break someone's confidentiality.

And it doesn't make you a bad leader to do it. I feel like there's this weird kind of assumption that a leader has to have it all figured out or know exactly what to do in these moments to be a good leader. That is false. It is completely wrong that if you have something that's a legal issue, you're not a legal expert. Go get legal expertise. Like, you know, I'm not a car person. I just had trouble with my car. You know who I went to, a car doctor, as my son calls it. Right. Like an expert in a car to go help me with that. Because if I get in there and I fiddle around with it, it's going to make it worse. It's going to cost more money. That principle applies. That principle's got legs. I'm going to preach on that later sometime.

So, Rich, as we think about these taboo topics, is there anything that churches can be doing to help create that kind of a safe place for men and women to be able to share these things? Whether it's taboo topics, legal issues, like how do we create environment in churches where people feel safe to share?

Yeah, I think just offering peer desire groups, in a sense. When a church is offering groups, the way we announce groups, we talk about groups. If the pastor's speaking from the pulpit, just to make it that same atmosphere from the beginning, just on the group, the baseline that Initial part makes it safe because now when I go to that church and they're talking about it like, oh, okay, I can go to these groups because the pastor's talking about it. So they have this place that's safe and I don't have to worry about it. Now when you get in the group, I think it's really important. You mentioned talked a little bit about the leaders not being an expert, but what I would say with that is even though they're volunteer leaders in the church and then our online group leaders, I think even the church and our online group leaders to really kind of hold to a high standard of we really need to be well trained and well versed in this stuff. And that's why we have group leader training. We have our podcasts and all the stuff that we put out for that reason. And then in the local church, obviously we hope that they're vetting those leaders and really working with those leaders. And then you throw in the reducing the risk policy. So there's all these things that need to be done before a leader starts a group. Now a leader can, he's been through group multiple times, maybe he's been through counseling, but it's a whole different game once you turn the switch on and you start leading the group. And then again, it's going back to creating that safe place where I'm setting the tone early on and then I'm modeling really what the church has done of creating this space for you. Now when we talk about the legal stuff and you just talked about it, that's why it's really important to go through the introduction. In the seven pillars, we talk about the group guidelines and the memo of understanding and the covenant to contend and about those reporting issues. And that is something we have to do and it's not easy. I have those phone calls weekly and a lot of times churches don't even know how to handle that. And so we just kind of coach them through that process and it's difficult. But again, and then when I think the biggest thing, and this is kind of my story for the groups that I lead, and I think it works really well, is when a reporting issue comes up, usually like I said, it's where I've pulled them out of group and have a one on one conversation or they call me over the phone, I let them know that, you know, hey, there can be those consequences. But it's not the end all be all, you know, it's just the consequence. And now say, hey, let's make the steps we Already know this is coming. And then we coach them through that. But then we're again, we're not giving them, you know, advice and telling them what to do. I mean, we'll tell them, say, hey, check with an attorney. You know, check with your pastor or the leader. You know, give them these steps before. Now there are those cases that, you know, you do have to report immediately when it's, you know, when there's imminent harm. I mean, just right there.

Yeah.

And those are difficult.

Yeah.

I think everything you're describing, Rich, is you're creating that safe place where people know from the MoU, the memo of understanding here are the things that we would have to share outside of group, but we want you to know everything else is going to be held confidentially. And when a group member knows there's confidentiality and they know the parameters of what they shouldn't share because it's mandatory reporting kind of issues, it gives them a lot of freedom to share everything else. And I think whatever we can do as a church to protect confidentiality is so, so key. And I think what you said too is so true about setting the tone, is just creating that group expectation up front, like, and I think I've said it in my orientation meetings, like, probably in the course of our group, every one of us is going to share things we've never really shared before. And it will be awkward for us, might be a little challenging for the group to receive, but it's just part of this group, like, it's what needs to happen. And so let's trust God to use that together. And then I also give people one other, I think, helpful caveat or a helpful out, I'll say you will never be forced to share something you're not ready to share. And I always tell people that because when you do the homework, if you're self editing, like, well, I'm not ready to share that, so I'm not going to write it down. You're actually not going to be processing very well. And so I tell people, when you do the homework, write the most brutal, honest answer. I mean, if you've been, you know, whatever your crimes are, write them all out because that's so healthy for you. And if you get to group and it's not appropriate or you're not ready to share any of them, cool. We're never going to go, well, I see you got more written there. You better, you know, it's not a pressure thing, it's not a forced thing. And I think if group members know that Then it gives them the freedom, like, okay, I'm going to enter into my own story. I'm going to do the homework fully. And when it comes to group, if. If I've got a lump in my throat and it just won't come out, like, take a deep breath and maybe, you know, maybe next week you'll be ready to share it. It's okay. And I think having that freedom actually allows group members to end up sharing more than they thought they would, because, like. And I've had group members say that, like, I really didn't think I was going to share this tonight, but I wrote it down. And now after what, you know, John was so honest, and it feels. I can tell you guys care about me. I just need to say this. And they'll share it, and then they find out it's okay, and they're still loved, and it becomes a win for the group. So that can happen, but only if you kind of create that freedom of you're not going to be pressured into ever sharing something you're not ready to share.

Yeah. The only thing I feel like I could add is just. And you kind of touched on, I think, a little bit rich. But just the idea of sharing your story meant you have people who've maybe had taboo elements, and maybe they're not getting up on stage and sharing all the details about it. But, you know, if something legal happens in your group and it's been processed well and someone's found healing, like, have somebody up there, like, I know how powerful your story is for so many people because of the story that you have, because of the experiences that you have. So I just feel like that's. That's always something that we can do to diminish shame or create a safe culture is just share people's stories. Yeah.

Well, it's a nice thing about the group structure because the group structure invites, in appropriate ways and times, your story to be shared. So it's not like you meet as a group and you're just going to go, all right, who's got something, you know, deep, dark, and ugly to share this week? Ready? Go. But it's like, okay, this week's homework lesson was, you know, this question. And letting group members read what they wrote within the structure of the group is actually really freeing because maybe I know I've got 10 more things I need to share, but they weren't asked about this week. That's okay. This week, I'm going to focus on this week's answers because, trust me, by the End of group, we'll get to everything. You know, trust the process. It's coming. But for today, like, I can share this much, and that's okay, because that's what the lesson asked me to share. So lean into that structure, because I think it really makes people feel safe that it's not just a free for all. And sometimes men's accountability groups have been that way, like, well, who's got something they need to share? And then you get accused. You're not being honest if you don't share something. And so lean on that structure, because I think it actually creates safety and a lot of freedom to share.

I've heard both of you mention this, too. The idea that. But if you know that there's potential for someone to share something in, like, an upcoming lesson, as a leader looking ahead and saying, you know what, I just want to let you guys know, let you ladies know if we get to this point, you know, in a couple of weeks, we have seen that legal issues come up, or we've seen some of these secrets and some of these fetishes, things like this come up. So just be aware of it and then basically prepare them, you know, and prepare them to. If it's legal, make sure that you're talking to someone outside of group for that. If it's a fetish, like, make sure that you're writing it down as you were saying. But just know that if it's something that you feel uncomfortable sharing, like, give yourself some of that space. So I think even preemptively, just saying, hey, guys, prepare for this can be helpful.

Yeah, there's a couple lessons I'm thinking. I can't remember off the top of my head, but I know where they're at.

You've been leading for 400 years, Rich. How could you?

Well, you guys keep editing the material.

Wow, that hurts. Can you get the knife out of my back?

God.

But it's true when we're. I know when the lesson's coming up, and I'm saying, hey, we have a lesson in a week or two where it's going to be asking that we're not going to share this in group, but you should share it with somebody, maybe one guy you really trust in group that you've connected with. Or you can share it with me outside of group. And then sometimes what they'll do is those lessons that are difficult, that can be kind of borderline, where they might only write down just a little bit with. Without going too deep, and then share the rest with me outside a Group.

Yeah.

Just so they're still processing through the group.

Right.

But, yeah, I mean, I think it's real, real important that we pay attention to that and, and not. Not. I don't say, don't let them get away with it. Not to dismiss that is. Is. Oh, we're not going to share it because it's triggering and it might be. There might be some legal issues. Right. I mean, it's important that we talk about that outside a group because I've heard a lot of groups, guys will just, oh, we're not going to do that today. They don't even talk about. They just skip the. They don't even really go any. They just go to the next lesson.

Yeah.

You know, they make them do the homework, but they don't talk about. They just move on.

So let's kind of turn inward. What if we have some of these elements in our own story, our own sexual history, Whether it may be taboo, how do we work through the shame? Like, how do we battle that and how do we work to diminish that in our own life?

Lots and lots of counseling with Dr. Ted.

It's your story.

That's. Yes. But, yeah, I mean, that was. I literally, when I first started that group in my very first group, 5am in the morning at a pizza joint in Gresham. I just remember that very first. Yeah, yeah. I remember that group thinking I was the only one. And as I'm hearing guys share around this table, I'm like, I am the only one. And then I just was like, well, I'm here. Ted told me to share, and I just. I just let it out. I wouldn't, I don't know if I would recommend that to do it the way I did it because I wasn't prepared. I didn't get prepared from the group leader to unload that. So I think it's real important as a group leader to facilitate it that way. But there's still some stuff in me that. That creeps up. I mean, just this last week I've had some stuff, just kind of emotional stuff creep up that not so much taboo, but it's related to my story. It's like, well, I'm this big, strong guy, so I'm not going to tell anybody. You know, I can deal with it. I'll handle it. And then I. I drive home and I listen to a worship song and I'm in tears. So it's like, okay, how's that work? So then I, you know, But I think it's really important because when we're leading groups, we're still in the healing process.

Totally.

Because I went through group, now I'm leading group. I'm in the second, maybe third year of a two to five year process. And I. I don't think. I think five years is not very. I don't think it's long enough. I think it's much longer than that just to go through that.

Yeah, I think that's a great point, Rich. And what I was thinking about, too, it's the reason we recommend that a person have gone through group for themselves first before they lead. And we know in some circumstances that doesn't happen. There's a pressing need to start a group, and you're kind of doing both. And in those cases, I think having an outside person you can go to, it doesn't have to be Dr. Ted, because he's in retirement from that act of counseling. But there are many, many Christian PSAPs and CSATs who. Ted has had a hand in helping trainers. And many of us have been through these programs that are so good that that's what we're here for. Like, to be able to process those things and download it and say, I don't know if I can share this with someone else. Here's what's my story. And that person listens and affirms us and they go, you know, I hope when you're ready, you will consider sharing that in group. And because we already shared it with one person, I mean, we're just another step further down the road. So I think if that's our story as a leader, we just need to remember leadership doesn't mean perfection. Leadership doesn't mean arrival. Leadership doesn't mean our story's over. Like, leadership is just part of our process. But I say it at the start of every group I lead. I'm in this group for me, and y' all are just here to help me in my journey. So I hope it helps you too. But I'm doing this because I need it. And if you can make that statement as a leader, then you have the freedom. Like, I've got my stuff too. And the more I actually share my stuff, the rest of the group goes, oh, well, we're gonna do it too, because we see it safe, because we're hearing your story.

And I mean, I'll just say it. The first time I told the story about the same sex experience, it was the hardest. It was the hardest that it ever was. Like, that was the worst. That was the worst one for me, which was the first one, and then the second time was like, yeah, I still didn't like that, you know, and then the third time and the fourth time, and by the time I'm on staff at Pure Desire, I'm sharing it. Shared it on the podcast, like hundreds of people, and then now I'm sharing it with thousands of people. It's like, for me, there's still. There still are little pockets of shame that seems to be more like certain seasons or times or situations that kind of have it flare up. But honestly, that is how you diminish shame, is just keep sharing it. And I'll tell you why for me, that's been that way is because I can't tell you how many times I've shared that story and someone has come up to me and said, thank you. I have the same experience. And I've never told anyone before, but because you shared that, I can now say it to you. This is my experience. And, you know, it's funny, is like, the one thing that I had the most shame about is ending up being one of the more powerful parts to my story that invite other people in. And so for me, it's not like a badge that I wear around, like, hey, I had this, you know, one experience that was terrible, you know, but it is something that I'm realizing, if I can have the courage to still be open about it, then that opens doors for people to have courage to share their own story. And so I think just the more you do it, it's not like it's going to ever stop hurting or that the shame is completely going to go away. But I've just noticed it diminishes over time, and the more I share about it.

Yeah, I know for me, it's the same thing when I'm sharing. It's just hard to share my story because it's super emotional, because it's not just me looking at a computer. This involves family and just all sorts of stuff. So, I mean, it's across the board is really difficult. So usually after I share this story, there are those times where shame starts to creep back in. So I'm reaching out. I'm talking to people. I'm just saying, hey, this is where I'm at. This is what I'm feeling. But I do know the power of our testimony, and I think that's why it's important we continue. It's not just, I don't think we get a free pass. Oh, it's one and done, you know, Totally. That's my mission. I guess you would say, is to keep sharing it.

Yeah. Because. Well, I mean, because of your story, you have a unique perspective on that and because of the healing that you have, you have a unique vantage point that you can speak to people and call them out of that.

Yeah. Yeah.

Well, this has been so good, Rich. I think it's a topic that we've needed to address because it goes into a lot of those corners and crevices of people's story that if they stay hidden, they're going to stay stuck. And I think today can offer a lot of encouragement and hope. And so let's end there. What's. What's the final word of encouragement or hope or blessing you would speak over listeners today?

Yeah, I, again, probably answer this two ways. One for the group leader, you know, is just to. Especially if they're dealing with some of this stuff that's creeping back in, I would encourage them to. That it's okay to reach out. They may not know who to reach out to, like in their circle, but if you're a peer desire leader, you can call us. I mean, that's my job, working with leaders. So I'm not going to shy away from a guy that's dealing with some tough stuff. Sometimes as leaders, we feel like we have a real small circle of influence and we have to be. We have to look the part, play the part. But I would encourage the leaders, if they are struggling, because I know if there's areas I'm struggling with, like I've been struggling the last couple weeks just with some emotional stuff, I'm not the only leader that's going through this. So I would encourage those guys to reach out, men or women, to reach out to us.

And.

And then for the group member, I think the biggest thing is not to let whatever that topic is, a taboo topic, whatever it is, not to let it get in the way of your healing process. If you vow to say, I'm going to take it to my grave, those are the things that literally will kill you on the inside. I can't explain the freedom that you get when you say, you know what, regardless of what I did, I'm going to tell somebody and I need to talk about it. I would just encourage them to not wait. You know, there's nothing going to happen. I mean, there's no good in waiting. I mean, it's just, let's talk about it. Let's start the process. Yeah, consequences may be there, you know, family issues. I mean, who knows what the consequences are? But at least we've started the process of healing. And so many guys think so lowly of themselves that they're not willing to take the risk to say, oh, yeah, this is what I'm doing or have done.

Yeah.

I just think, like, the two words that come to mind, I remember them from Our Sexual Integrity 101 video course, Grace and competency that we've. You know, Nick, you mentioned grace earlier, but competency, meaning like educating yourself and preparing yourself to respond when you hear these. About these elements of people's stories, that you're responding the best way possible with empathy, with understanding, being able to go underneath maybe that activity and resonate deeply with what was motivating that behavior or why that person felt like that was the right decision for them. The emotional wounds underneath, that sort of stuff. So I just feel like, you know, because I think I would just say share it with somebody if that's part of your story. But for someone who's sitting on the outside hearing this from people, man, just making sure we do everything we can to prepare ourselves and equip ourselves best to respond well to these situations when they come up.

Yeah, that's what I was going to say, is plan on it. Plan that this will be shared. Plan that it's part of people's group experience and think through even. Okay, when something comes up. Maybe I've never heard. If something shares something that is kind of taboo, how will I respond? What will I say? And I think when you're planning on it, then you'll handle it while you're like, yeah, this is what I was thinking about. I'm ready. And just what you shared, Rich, would be my encouragement, too. It's not your whole story, but it's like having a sliver that everything you touch, as long as you have a sliver, it hurts, it bugs you, it's painful, but it's a tiny little thing. And when it comes out, it's like, oh, it's over. And I think sometimes our taboo topics are like that. Like, we take that deep breath and we share it. It's like, oh, it's over. I feel so much better it came out now. Like, I can actually focus on the rest of my story. That really is important. So if you can find that courage to dive in and face those things, share those things, I think you're gonna really find some real momentum in your story. So go for it.

Yeah. And as we mentioned at the top, like, these happen all the time. These topics come up all the time in groups, so be prepared for them. And we hope our conversation today gave you confidence that you can face these and handle these situations. Well. I think it's important, too, to say that people with sexual brokenness in their life need that safe place to share their whole story, all of it, including this stuff, and be loved and welcomed regardless. So, Rich, I know that these kind of conversations just between, you know, conversations we've had, these conversations like this, shame tends to flare up a little bit for you. But I just want to tell you, we value you and we love that you're willing to continue to share your story, even the hard parts, because we know how powerful it is. So we appreciate you, man.

I appreciate that. Yeah.

And wherever you're at on your journey, pure desire is here to help create a roadmap for your healing. If you or somebody knows impacted by sexual brokenness or betrayal trauma, go to PureDesire.org and let's start the healing journey today. Don't forget to subscribe to the podcast. Each week we put out new content to help you on the road to healing and freedom. And lastly, never stop being healthy.