251 - The Good Guide To Great Sex w/ Dr. Keith & Sheila Wray Gregoire

You're listening to the Pure Desire Podcast, your safe place to find hope, healing, and freedom from sexual addiction, betrayal and relationship issues. What is up? I'm your host, Trevor Windsor, and you're listening to episode 251 of the Pure Desire podcast. Here joining me as always, is my co host, Nick Stembo. It's good. You haven't done that one before.

I. I haven't. I've used good in a lot of different ways, but I've not ever said it's good.

Bruce Almighty.

Bruce Almighty.

That's right. That's such a good movie.

It's good. Yeah. I watched it again like three, four weeks ago.

Oh, my gosh. Do you like Evan Almighty? Like the parts?

It has parts, yeah.

All right. Honestly, here's my thing. Other than the Office, which by itself stands alone, Steve Carell in Ben character roles is much better than lead character roles. I'm just gonna say it. I'm throwing it out there. Hot take. Anyways, let's talk about why you're talking about good. So today we had one of our. Honestly, she has been one of the most popular and one of our most favorite guests. No offense to everyone who's been on here. We love you. Sheila Rae Gregoire and her husband Dr. Keith came on today to talk about. They have two books out now, the Good Girl's Guide to Great Sex. And then that has now been updated and then they now have the Good Guys. Great. Will you help me? They have two books out and we had them on to talk about it.

Yes, because many of our listeners maybe have heard of the Good Girls Guide because that's been out for several years and now they're about to release the Good Guys Guide to Great Sex. And the Good Girls Guide is going to be updated and re released. And so we just think they're really valuable resources. And as you'll hear on the podcast, just walks through everything from the very like data, scientific, what do we call things? All the way to the very practical of what are the things we could work on in the bedroom tonight? What are practical ideas we could try and everything in between. And as they bring up, like every young engaged couple should be reading through these just to reframe and rethink about how we view sex and having health around it. And so I loved the conversation. I think it continues to challenge our paradigms of what many of us were either taught inherently or explicitly about sex and moves us towards a healthier view of marital sexuality.

Totally. So if you are engaged or you are married and have been married for a while. We do recommend these books. They will be in the show notes for sure. We've got a great episode for you with Sheila and Dr. Keith. But real quick, today's episode is sponsored by Covenant Eyes and their restored vows free 14 day video course. In this course, Brandon and Sonya Clark talk through the dark period where pornography impacted their marriage and how they found healing and hope. If you're interested in checking out this free course, just text the word vows to 66866 that's the word V O W S to 66866 and find the power in Restored Vows. If you're not a subscriber to the podcast, just do it. Don't wait any longer. I know I say it every week and I know you get bored because you probably skipped through this section anyways, but please subscribe. We're on all the major platforms. Give us a review. It helps other people find the podcast. You can follow us on Facebook, Twitter and instagramureduredesirepdmi and you can find full episodes of these or full video of episodes up on YouTube. To search pure Desire Ministries and then Nick, it's out man. The Pure Desire Group Leader training it' in the world. Talk to people about it. Why should they buy it?

Well, because if they want to help others, if they want to lead a group, we need to be trained. And I think for people that have gone through a pure Desire group, they know this. But if a listener has not been through group and is realizing, boy, my church has nothing, I need to be equipped to lead, I could go through it. A Pure Desire group is really different than anything most of us were ever a part of. It's not a Bible study, it's not a book club. It really has some very specific targets and a specific approach that if, if not done properly, a group can go off the rails pretty quickly. You get where groups get hijacked by someone that's not following their lesson. Someone's emotional turmoil dominates every week. People are sporadic in attendance. And when all that's happening, the group experience is diminished for everyone. And so our hope is that people, when they take the effort because it's a big commitment to go through a pure desire group. The 8, 9, 10 month commitment for men and women is significant. And so when someone makes that commitment, we want them to have a good experience. And in my just experiential opinion, 95% of that just naming a stat made it up on the spot.

Nice.

I think it's consistent. 95% of a person's group experience will be dictated by the quality of leadership, the way the group is run. And so that's why we released this group leader training, because we know there are great groups out there. And if that's you, you know, go through this as a refresher course, you're like the airline pilot that every couple of years just has to re up their certification. But if you felt like I've had poor group experiences or groups haven't go well. Even more importantly, walk through this training course because it's going to show you the ins and the outs from beginning to end of how to do group well. And I think we will all find ways that we can improve our leadership. And if you've never led a group, it's just that building blocks the course that says this is how you do it. And so we're excited to have it out there. The team did a great job. The video company we worked with, Novel Films out of Michigan, they did an awesome job. And we're just so excited to have this available for people.

Yeah. And it's an eight session. It's over 40 modules that are cut up into bite sized pieces. So if you do want to go through this and have confidence in leading a pure desire group, go to PureDesire.org GLT and order the course today. All right, here's our conversation with Sheila and Dr. Keith Gregoire about the Good Guide to Great Sex. Sheila, welcome back. And Keith, welcome for the first time to the Pure Desire podcast. We're super excited to have you guys.

Thanks.

Great to be here. We.

Sheila, you. I don't know if you know this, you probably wouldn't because you probably don't creep on any of our content that we put out, but you're one of the most popular guests we've ever had on the podcast. And I would say popular in a really good way and then also popular and like, people are like, hold on. She said what? Like, I don't agree with, like, it's awesome. It's been so great. We have loved our episodes with you and so we're just excited to have you back on and then finally to meet the man behind maybe a lot of the stuff that you do and who you are. And so to finally get to meet Dr. Keith is awesome. So we're really excited to have this conversation. And as mentioned, Sheila, you've been on the podcast before. Our listeners know or more familiar with you and your work. But, Keith, this is your first time. Can you give us a little bit of background who you Are what you do, how you're involved with what Sheila's doing?

Yeah, sure. So I'm a pediatrician in my regular day life. And, you know, years ago, Sheila started writing about sex and marriage. And then at one point, she came alongside me and said, hey, how would you like to do this with me and talk to all kinds of hundreds and thousands of people about all the intimate details of our marriage?

Whoa.

So I just jumped at that.

Sure.

What guy wouldn't? So, yeah, in all seriousness, we were speaking with marriage conferences a lot, and so there's always a talk about sex. And so Sheila was already talking about sex, and they all figured, well, you're a doctor, so whatever. So we always got the sex talk.

Is that what happens when you become a doctor? Like, oh, you're comfortable with all topics? Let's just address it.

Yeah, exactly.

Pretty much, yeah.

Wow, that's awesome.

Ironically, not all doctors are comfortable talking about things. Our second daughter, when she was born, the doctor we had for that birthing process was just very shy about, like, naming body parts. I'm like. And he was, like, in his 60s, close to retirement. Like, how are you still nervous about naming body parts? This is what you do for a living. So I get the sense that, Keith, that's not a challenge for you.

Yeah, well, there's a difference between being polite and being ashamed. And I think that we want to be polite. We want to be, but we also want to be clear, and we don't want to be clouded in what we speak.

Right?

Yeah, absolutely.

So excited to have you guys on. And as our listeners will find out, a big part of today's episode is to talk about a new book that you guys have coming out. So, Sheila, you have already written, but it's being updated, the Good Girl's Guide to Great Sex. And now you guys are coming out together with the book A Good Guy's Guide to Great Sex.

Thank you, by the way. So excited. Thank you.

Covering both sides. So talk a little bit about how the two books differ from each other, and then also how they pair together in a way that couples could use these together in building a healthy sex life.

Well, what we found is that men and women have different problem spots when it comes to sex. And I know we're going to get to this, but I'm going to jump right into it right now. Do the number 47. Okay, everybody remember the number 47. I think in Hitchhiker's Guide to the Universe isn't 47 or 47, but 47 is our orgasm gap. So 95% of men almost always or always reach orgasm in a sexual encounter. And the equivalent number among Christian women is 48. So that's a 47 point gap. So when we're talking to men and women, we need different messages to men and women. Yeah, women need to hear, hey, sex is for you too. This can be awesome. You need to embrace it. Like, you can be passionate. It might take a while to figure it out, but you can do it. Whereas guys need to hear, hey, you gotta figure this out for her. You have, you know, it's your role to make her feel awesome and not just to use her. So there's just a different, a different slant in both the books.

And I think we've been taught things that have been harmful to our healthy sex lives, but the things we've been taught as men and the things we've been taught as women that cause harm are different things as well too. And so we have to tackle each of those issues separately.

Yeah, I really appreciate I had an opportunity to read a preview copy of the Good Guys Guide to Great Sex. And one of the things that I really appreciated, Dr. Keith, was just the way you guys really cover the spectrum in there from the very practical, like we were joking about before the show, you know, naming things, what they are and being very like, let's define some things yet also all the way to the very tangible in terms of things to do in the bedroom. Ways that you as a couple can learn to connect with each other. And so Sheila, having not read the girls equivalent, is that something couples can expect in both books? That there really will be a range of covering the very like the factual stuff all the way to ideas for how couples can improve. Is that consistent in the two books?

Yes, the books cover all of the same thing. They just cover them from slightly different angles and then. And sometimes in slightly different orders. Because we need to learn about things in a different order depending on what our, what our issues are. But everything is all covered. And at the end of the book, there's discussion questions that couples can use together to go over what they've learned. So, yeah, it's all the same information.

Yeah.

So would you recommend that couples are reading one book at a time and discussing it or that they're both reading their book and then discussing them together? How do you think that would work in a marriage relationship?

Yeah. So ideally you both read your own book and then you discuss it together. And even more ideally, if couples could read them when they're engaged. We had such A terrible first few years of our marriage. Like, it was awful.

Pretty honest about that in the book about the ways that I didn't do such a good job.

And I think that's a lot of people's stories. And so these books are great for people who are married and who just want to go that extra mile, figure this out, get it. Really great. But especially if you. If you're not married yet, if these can become the bridal shower, the wedding shower gifts that couples get beforehand to avoid all the heartache that so many of us have.

Yeah, that's an awesome idea. And should. Do you think the other person should read the other genders book as well?

They can. Yeah.

There's no harm in that. It's good to see that sort of perspective, the other person. But. And the other thing too, I think is in the books, the books are not all as gendered as a lot of Christian resources are. A lot of Christian resources teach all men are like this, all women are like that. We really shy away from that. When it's true that most men are a certain way. We do say that, but we also say, you know, not all men are like this. Yeah. But there are, you know, there are biological differences in how we work and how sex works for us.

Totally.

And those things are really important. We do need to discuss those. That's why the two books.

I love your idea, though, of having couples do it before they get into marriage. And then even couples now, the benefit of it, because what's interesting is there's a lot of shame that we carry when it comes to sex and sexuality. And a lot of it is stuff that we don't even realize we believe about it. And so when our expectations aren't met, it's like, well, gosh, like. And I have this conversation even on staff every once in a while. We'll end up talking about it where it's so easy to assume other people have a better sex life than me because they're able to talk about it or, you know, whatever it may be, there's just an assumption I'm doing it wrong. And I think a lot of us maybe carry that in when it doesn't meet our expectations. So I love that you have a resource that can help people create like a, hey, it's going to be a little bit different for everybody. But at the same time, here are good practices to maybe help diminish that shame before it can even get into a marriage.

Yep.

Yeah, we have a whole section about preparing for the honeymoon and all that Sort of stuff as well, too. And giving a lot of practical tips about that and helping to sort of point out some of the landmines that you can step on.

Totally.

And so you can start really well. But the book's not just for young married couples or couples who are going to get married. I think even if you've been married for a while, if this is an area that you're struggling with, I think it'll give a lot of really good information and help to couples. Absolutely.

And what, again, the thing that makes this different and what makes Great Sex Rescue different is this isn't just our opinion. I mean, it is our opinion, but our opinion is based on a grand total of, I think, in these books, 25. 25,000 people. So we surveyed 25,000 people for these.

Totally. Done your research.

Well, and the other thing I want to just add to that is that this is not a 25,000 people. What's your opinion? This is actually what Sheila has been doing. I think she's amazing. I mean, what Sheila's been doing is scientific studies. So she asked people questions of marital and sexual satisfaction, and then she asked them also in the same questionnaire questions about their beliefs. And then what she does is she actually correlates those and she says, hey, people who believe this, what does that show up? How does that show up in their sex life? For sure, that's very different than what you think about something thing.

Yeah.

And what we're doing is we're saying, hey, there's things that in the church have been taught these are not biblical teachings. These are evangelical culture teachings. Yeah, we dress them up and call them biblical, but they're not biblical and they hurt people. And we need to get back to what the Bible really says about sex if we want to have a healthy sex life the way God intended us to.

And that's exactly why you're one of our favorite people to talk to about this topic. Okay, so you talk about wanting to redefine the word sex, and you've already talked about this orgasm gap that we have, that the ways that we commonly think about sex contribute to that. So when you say you need to redefine the word sex, can you just circle back? I know we've talked a little bit about that on some previous episodes, but again, how would you redefine the word sex?

Yeah, I'm sure I've done. I'm sure I've done this to you before, but I'll do it again if I haven't. But if I were to say, did you have sex last night?

Yeah.

And you don't need to answer.

But it don't. Please.

Just got really personal.

Wow. Okay. You were my favorite. And now you're not fancy. Fantastic.

But people think what I'm saying is, you know something about penis and vagina move around like intercourse. Everyone's picturing intercourse. And that is our common definition of sex. But the problem with that is that it really is highlighting his experience and not hers. The only thing that intercourse tells us is that he orgasm. Okay. In 95% of cases, he did. Like 95% of men would have said that. So. So the only thing intercourse tells us is that he orgasm. It doesn't tell us that she enjoyed, doesn't tell us whether or not she felt used. It doesn't tell us whether or not he felt close to her. It doesn't tell us whether or not he felt it was just duty sex. It doesn't tell us whether or not she was in pain. Like, it tells us nothing except whether or not he orgasms. And so we need to stop that as our definition. And we need to instead see sexuality as this thing that we experience together. And it's something which, if you go back to Genesis 4, verse 1, Adam knew his wife Eve and they conceived a son. It's easy to laugh and think God's just using a euphemism there. But the root in the Hebrew for to know is the same word where David says, search me and know me. Oh God. You know, intimacy is a key part of sex. So we have this picture of something which is intimate, something which is Mutual from First Corinthians 7, and something which is pleasurable for both from Song of Songs and when we see sex like that, then one sided intercourse where he orgasms but she doesn't, or sex where he might orgasm but they don't feel connected. That's not what we're aiming for, you know, that's not a good sex life. And I think when we, when we define sex as merely intercourse, if you're going to see a marriage counselor, one of the first questions they often say is, how often do you have sex? And if sex is merely intercourse and you're not feeling connected and you say three times a week and she checks off the box, well, that doesn't tell you anything. And so let's start redefining this and seeing it as this rich experience that we have together.

Yeah.

So we expand the definition in our book. To be sex is everything that the two of you do together sexually with the aim of mutual satisfaction, pleasure, and bonding. So it's not just intercourse. Intercourse is part of that, but there's so much more. And I think that this. This is so important on many levels. First of all, as Sheila was saying, that the biblical idea of sex is not just physical. It's spiritual, it's emotional. There's a. There's a bonding there. It's more than just the physical act. And when we reduce it to just a physical act, I think we're taking something vital away from the sexual experience. And the problem is that we often, as men, we find intercourse very easy, and sex is very automatic for us. And then when women don't orgasm that way very easily, we assume that that means that God made us. Right? And God made women broken. Well, who are we to say that? We need to step back and say, hey, if God made my wife differently than me, if it takes her longer to get to that level, if she needs other things, maybe that was part of the design and not a bug. And maybe I need to step back and go. My view of sex needs to change, you know, and. And I need to grow as a. As a husband and think differently about this.

Yeah. Yeah. And that's exactly what I love about these conversations with you guys is I feel like we're inviting people to reframe the way they view their marriage and the way they view sexuality in their marriage, because many of us did grow up, whether from the church or equally, I think, influenced by media, that just does define, well, you know, a real man, if you use that phrase, a real man has sex this amount of times, and it's frequent and it's always good, and that even inadvertently creates a mindset of sex is about my pleasure. And if we have grown up in that environment and never learned to question that, and we just feel like our wife is there to meet that need or help, you know, kind of be a role player in my sexual success. It's not going to be a healthy marriage. And so we're reframing what do I view as a mutually fulfilling relationship and how I define sex. And I think if people are open to that, it doesn't have to be this automatic, like, well, just going to change the way I think about it, but a process of learning and growing and becoming better at having mutually fulfilling sexual connection with your spouse. So you guys conducted the largest survey of Christian men and women, as we've talked, about 25,000 data points. That's amazing and remarkable, really, to determine people's marital and sexual satisfaction. So as you've gotten the results of that, what would you say was the most interesting finding from your research? And then how does your book address taking next steps in that area.

With the obligations?

I was gonna do the foreplay one.

Okay, that's a good one.

You could do.

You could do both.

At this point, we're okay with all of it.

Each of you take one?

Yeah. Okay. Well, I'll. I'll take the. You take the one I was gonna say, and I'll take the one you were gonna say.

Okay, sounds good. You go first, though.

So when we did look at which evangelical teachings most messed things up for men and women, the one that we found that was the most harmful was what we called the obligation sex message, which is the idea that a woman is obligated to have sex when her husband wants it. And Roughly, I think 40% of women said that they believed that at the point where they got married. And if women believe that, then their chance of experiencing sexual pain increases to almost the same extent as if they'd been abused. There's only a 0.1% difference in the two confidence intervals. So they're almost statistically the same. And what that's saying is that women's bodies interpret obligation sex as trauma. Wow. And it's the reason that Christian women. It's one of the primary reasons that Christian women have twice the rate of sexual pain as the general population. And so one of our big prayers is that we start talking about sex in a different way. Sex is not a male entitlement and a female obligation. Sex is this beautiful thing that you share together. And when that's understood, when both people capture. Capture that vision, and. And when you figure out how to make orgasm work for her, etc. Frequency tends to figure itself out. So it's not like we need the obligation sex message to get women to have sex. What we need is to have sex be a safe space for her. If sex is a safe emotional space for her, and if sex is great physically for her, then it's going to be something that she's going to want to do do.

Instead, we've combated this idea that women don't want sex with just commands to have sex more. And that's exactly the opposite of what we should be doing. And Sheila's studies have shown that that obligation sex message actually causes women's, you know, enjoyment of sex, their desire to have sex to drop. So we're shooting ourselves in the foot if we're trying to use this as a way to get women to have sex with us more.

It's.

We're doing exactly the opposite.

Well, and it's even, It's. Well, it's even a. It's even a misunderstanding of the problem that there, there are points where it's like, well, what. What about the husband's sexual brokenness that's playing out here? Like, what if it's. What if there's an addiction there? And the frequency and, and, and even, I mean, not even just the rate at how much you have sex, but the level or the intensity of that could be driven by this person's addiction. And so just. And that's what's so scary and that's what's so interesting about what you're finding in the research is that we're basically telling wives at this point, in this context, wives to continue to traumatize themselves by having sex with their husbands. And that's just like, if you think about that, that is. That's super scary. And we have to take that into account. But I feel like that starts from a misunderstanding that, well, if you just have sex with your husband more, we wouldn't have these issues and he wouldn't have this pornography addiction or there wouldn't be brokenness when really they're not connected. It's not the same thing.

It's just amplifying unhealthy. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And I think it also, it also again, goes back to that definition of sex. When we see intercourse as the thing which God wants us to do. So God has declared that you shall have intercourse in your marriage. Then no matter what the motivations are for that intercourse, it is seen as God ordained.

Yeah. Yes.

And so even if he has been channeling all of his emotional needs into sex, instead of really exploring what the roots are for his emotional needs and getting them met in healthy ways, even if he is. He is becoming. He's treating her like methadone, the way every man's battle tells us to do. Right. Instead of, instead of masturbating to porn, use your wife. So even if he's treating her that way, that is somehow seen as godly because intercourse is godly. And what that actually ends up doing is exactly what you said is re. Traumatizing her.

Yeah. And we use the verses in Corinthians to. To bash women over the head and say it says, do not deprive each other, so you need to give him sex. And we get pushback saying, you're talking about this mutual stuff. But the Bible does say, you know, do not Deprive. But here's the deal. If we've got a 47% orgasm gap, if we've got women who have the potential to have an amazing sexual experience, who can have multiple orgasms, who can have prolonged orgasms, and they have no sexual pleasure, which one of those two people is being deprived? It's not the man.

Can I tell you about Doug and Tracy? See, I love our Doug and Tracy story. Okay, so let's imagine that we tell couples the way that you express love to each other and the way that you feel loved is by going out to a restaurant to eat once a week. So this is what good couples do, is they go into restaurant to eat. And so let's imagine Doug and Tracy and they do this, and they go to a restaurant and they order their food. And Tracy's appetizer comes. It's this amazing French onion soup, and it's lovely. And she's eating it and she declares it delicious. And then the waitress comes with her steak with peppercorn sauce and a baked potato, and she's slathering on the sour cream, and it's a perfect medium rare steak. And Doug is still waiting for his food, but she's eating it and she's saying how amazing it is.

Doug's wondering where his appetizer is.

Yeah. And meanwhile, they're talking about their plans for vacation in the summer, and they're talking about whether or not to enroll their child in competitive hockey or rec hockey or whatever. And they're trying to figure this out, and they're having a good conversation. And then her steak's done, and the waitress brings her molten lava cake dessert. And it's like this amazing chocolate thing. And she puts her spoon in and it just erupts. And it's so great. And she's gushing over it and she's eating it. And in the middle of her molten lava cake, Doug's chicken wings arrive. His appetizer is here. And he eats one chicken wing, and he eats a second chicken wing. And then Tracy stands up and says, that was amazing. I love going to dinner with you. And then she turns around and walks out of the restaurant. And Doug follows behind, looking forlornly at the four chicken wings still on his plate.

And they didn't even get to the main course.

Right. And my question is, if this couple does that week after week, year after year, how do you think Doug is going to feel about going out to restaurants? And imagine if they've been told their whole lives? Well, Doug, you don't actually need to eat. All you really need is the conversation. That's what really gets you. That's all that you need. And so you should be grateful because you had this great conversation. And that's what women have been dealing with, is, we've been told, well, you don't really actually need sex. All you need is the emotional closeness. It's him who needs the sex. And so women often have been going through these motions week after week, year after year, and not really enjoying sex. And what we found is that women can sustain that for a while, but only for so long.

Yeah.

And then the marriage becomes sexless.

Yeah.

Yeah. It's. It's a powerful illustration. And I. I think to flip it and think about, if that was my experience as the man, how interested would I be? And I want to go back to what you said, because I think listeners need to really internalize this message. And I'm quoting you. You said the female body interprets obligation sex as trauma. And if we could just get that idea of like. And that's back to what you said, Dr. Keith, not because there's something wrong with women, but perhaps the way God designed the brain and the body to work and be connected and to interpret, you know, the physical signals of what we're getting from another person, if their body is interpreting it as trauma, the likelihood of us having a fulfilling, mutual sex life together is going to disappear. And so we've got to take these things and look at how do we reanalyze the way we're connecting? And so, yeah, it's a compelling picture that I hope if a listener feels challenged by, you'll sit with it, say, why is this so uncomfortable for me? And maybe it is because we've operated in something in an unhealthy way for a long time, and change is hard. And we just need to acknowledge change is hard. And so I want to go back because, Dr. Keith, when you guys talked about the most surprising finding, you both had one. So we've heard the one that Sheila shared. What was the other surprising finding? Let's jump into that one, because I heard you mention the word foreplay, and I'm sure many listeners would love to hear more about what was the surprising finding regarding foreplay.

Yeah.

And it's actually kind of related. Eventually we'll see how you get around to it. But. But what we found was that basically asked, how often when you. When you have sexual encounter, do you do enough foreplay? Now, we didn't define that. We just let them decide if they did or did not. And what we found was in couples where women regularly orgasmed, men said, yes, I do enough foreplay. But surprisingly, in couples where women don't frequently orgasm, 71% of men still said, I do enough foreplay. And so my question is, you know, dude, enough for what? The really ultra surprising thing to me was this. 52% of women said, he does enough foreplay. She answered, yes, he does enough foreplay, even though I don't orgasm regularly. Because we've both internalized this idea that sex actually is for men. It's not really for women. And we need to change that. It's Sheila says all the time, like, you don't have to tell people, don't eat chocolate cake. You know, like, you have to, sorry, you don't tell people, here, eat this chocolate cake. Sorry, you don't tell people, eat this chocolate cake. You say, don't eat the chocolate cake because they want the chocolate cake. Well, when we find that women don't want sex, why isn't our question, what are we doing wrong? That women don't want sex?

Yes.

Why are we, as men, not saying, hey, what am I doing wrong that my wife doesn't want this? Why is the go to response to try and oblige her to. To do this anyway, even if she doesn't want it? That we need to really, when we started doing that, we should have realized we'd gotten somewhere off track.

Yeah. And I want to stress it's not always that he's doing something wrong. This is. This is really key because one of our big findings in my book, the Great Sex Rescue, is that a lot of times, the reason that women don't have a libido, the women. The reason women aren't sexually responsive is because of the negative beliefs that we've internalized, and we need to get rid of those negatives. But then other times, it's just that you've never figured stuff out. And one of the things we go into a lot of detail and in both books, which it's worth the price of the book for this alone, is the sexual response cycle. We need to understand that it doesn't look the same for men and women. It is different. And when guys don't get this, and when women don't get this, that's when we start to believe she's broken when she's not.

Man, I just feel like every time, and this is what I love about this, is that this is the kind of stuff that our churches really need to hear. And this, for me, like things like this. When I hear about the foreplay and I hear about the trauma that's caused the female body, this is why it's so important to be informed when it comes to how the bot, like how the body functions, neurochemistry and having. Holding those two things, holding our theological and spiritual understanding with also a scientific understanding of what happens in the brain and body, why holding those two things together is so meaningful and powerful. And I hope that anyone who's listening, you know, I just wrote a paper for school on sexual abuse and looking at the impact that it has on people and the communities. And if we just educated ourselves and hold these two things in tension, so many opportunities to bring healing and to actually avoid trauma, avoid abuse can happen. So I really appreciate this conversation so far for absolutely that reason. But moving on, in your books, you address the reality that, and we've already talked about it, people approach sex in so many of the wrong ways. And this is programmed by culture and honestly, sexual fulfillment through pornography. What pornography teaches us so often too. So why do these habits need to be broken? And really, what does it look like to move toward achieving true intimacy? Because we talked about the difference between intimacy and sex. How do we get more toward intimacy?

I think the first thing I'd say about the pornography issue is that the way pornography works is it teaches us to see sex as something that is, for me, it causes us to have a selfish view of sex. Rather than this being something that the two of us do to give to each other. It's what do I get from this? And a lot of guys use sex to feel more like a man, to cover over aches and wounds in their past, to avoid going to difficult places where they have to be emotionally vulnerable. They can cover that all over with sex. And we use sex utilitarian like this rather than working on the issues we need to work on as men so that we can bring this to our wives and say, this is something I want to use as a way to give to you rather than as something that I want to take from you. Pornography teaches exactly the opposite of that. Sex is about what I can get and what I can use for me. And I think we need to change that.

You know, I've spoken to a lot of women whose husbands have gotten over porn. So they. They've stopped watching porn. You know, they've done the accountability groups, They've done whatever they're going to do. There's stop watching porn. But then the women say, but they're not any different. And and that's actually part of the problem, is that watching porn itself is bad and is wrong, and you do need to stop. But the healing doesn't end there. And when I go deep with these women, what they tell me is, I still feel like he's closed off from me. Because porn is often a wall that people put up because it allows them to feel good. It allows them to feel accepted and. And want it without having to do the work of becoming vulnerable to another person. And so part of the healing from porn isn't just getting rid of the porn, but it's learning how to open up to your wife so that sex is the culmination of intimacy that you share, rather than the sum total of the intimacy that you share. So let me give you one super practical thing, okay? Super practical, easy to implement, that you can do, that can help you build that emotional connection. When you come home from work. When she comes home from work at the end of the day, often the conversation goes, so, what did you do today? Or how was your day? And then someone will say, oh, it was all right, or it was pretty normal, or I had a bunch of client meetings or whatever. Okay. It doesn't tell you anything. So here's an exercise that you can do instead. Get a cup of coffee, cup of tea, cup of hot chocolate, whatever. Sit down, and just share two emotional moments with each other. The time today where you felt the most in the groove, like God was working through me. I was amazing. I was on. It was incredible. And then the time where you felt the most defeated and discouraged. So just those two emotional snapshots, and when you share those with each other, it really opens a window on how you're feeling. And that can be a little bit uncomfortable if you're not used to using emotional language. But it's actually a really safe and easy way to start using emotional language if you're not used to it, and a lot of people recovering from porn aren't used to it.

Yeah.

But here's a way to let your wife in. And that's a really important step if we're going to regain this idea of sex is not just physical, but as really being about us wanting to know each other on a deeper level.

Yeah, you're really speaking our language now, because that's one of the things we say all the time at Pure Desire, is that we're not here to stop a behavior behavior. We're here to change the way you do life. And if you're going to change the way you do life, it Means understanding what was driving the behavior, what was I using it to numb from or to run away from? And how do I understand the way that I've been shaped all the way back into my family of origin and growing up years and the negative message that I've learned to believe? And how did pornography or sex or masturbation become an outlet in an unhealthy way? Because if we can address the whole system and learn to live as healthy beings, a lot of that means having emotional connection, being able to be aware of what I'm feeling and process it with another person. And most importantly, that person that I have pledged my life to and said is my. My best friend and my closest confidant. I've. I've got to be able to connect at that level with them or it never will go beyond the physical. And so I. I love the way that you, in. In your messaging, in the book, connect those dots to, well, how can we actually work on this? And so I. I think for couples to learn some of those tools of emotional connection is a huge growth step that maybe we've missed in a lot of our other approaches to healthy marriages.

Yeah, yeah, we. Well, I think we dichotomize sex, and we sort of say to men, men need the physical side of sex, and women need the emotional closeness of sex. And we have this sort of dichotomy. And I think sex is meant to be physical and emotional and spiritual all at once. And I think as men, we can be. We are better men when we are connected to the emotional and spiritual aspects of things. And women can really enjoy the physical aspect of things, and we shouldn't be putting them in two little boxes and not sharing. We should both have both. So if you see a book talking about Christian marriage and it says that, you know, sex is for a man's physical release, that's a very anemic, very, very shallow view of sex. And we need to see past that. We need to go beyond that. And I think, guys, I mean, guys, we naturally know this. We know that sex is not just physical. It's emotional. I mean, makeup sex is a real thing, right?

Totally.

Like, you had a big fight, you laid it on the table. You really said what you were feeling. You open up your hearts to each other, and you've made it all right. And you feel so close to each other emotionally, you just want to jump each other, like, totally.

This is.

This is what we're talking about. Like, sex is emotional, and great sex has emotional vulnerability to it. And we as men need to not shy away from that. We need to step up to that and be willing to engage that because that's. You can be emotionally vulnerable and extremely strong and masculine and we need to not think those two things don't go together.

I want to speak into that just for a second in my own personal walk right now. That's something that I've been struggling with. And praise the Lord for my therapist who helps me talk through it. But the idea that I, when I share emotionally, I want it to be prepackaged in a way where it's going to make sense and it's going to be presenting strength. Because in a lot of ways I feel like if my wife is going to love me, respect me, going to want to have sex with me, I need to be strong or I need to have it together or I need to be safe. And it's interesting because it's the opposite. When I present it that way, I don't feel safe. That isn't inviting. And that's the scary part is I have to open up and be willing to just say, I don't even really know what to do do with this, but this is where I'm at emotionally right now. And I don't really even know how like what the next step is. But just being able to invite her into my world is what facilitates that intimacy and that closeness. And so for me, just personally, that's been a shift that's real. When I say it's really difficult, I mean it. It's a day to day thing. When I get home, we do highs and lows at dinner with our two boys, the four of us, we sit at dinner, we do highs and lows. And even so, if something's hard and my son asks me, well, dad, why was that meeting hard? It's like, oh, well. And then I just try to like, you know, tie a ribbon on top and just be like, oh, it's okay, Daddy's got it figured out, or I'm strong or whatever, look at me as if that's somehow modeling reality of what it's gonna be like when he is in those meetings later in his life. It's like, no, you're gonna come home and you're gonna be an emotional wreck and not gonna want to know what to do and you're insecure and then you freak out at your kids because like it just goes and goes. And so for me, that's been a personal thing, is trying to figure out, not even trying to figure out, preparing myself to just share the Raw emotion of where I'm at and allow God to work in that rather than me having to have it perfect in this perfect package to hand to my family.

So as we're talking about emotional connection and this shift for people, they're learning maybe a new way to think about their sex life. And that really, I think, juxtaposes how most couples have learned to focus on frequency and making that such a big deal of how often is it happening, how often should it happen comparing to maybe what we've heard, it should be happening in terms of frequency. So talk about frequency a little bit. Why is that perhaps the wrong approach? And what would you say to people about how to think about frequency of sex in their marriage?

One of the things we found is that when you have five things present, frequency tends to take care of itself. So I'm going to list five things for you. When she frequently reaches orgasm, when there's high marital satisfaction, when they feel emotionally connected during sex so she doesn't feel used, there's no duty sex going on. When there's no sexual dysfunction, and when there's no porn use in the marriage, frequency pretty much sorts itself out. So the problem is that frequency is a symptom. It's not the problem. And when we treat frequency like the problem, we miss the real issue. Yeah. And so if someone has a really low desire, and it might not be her, it might be him, you know, but when someone has a really low desire, look at what's up with those five things. And it isn't always a marriage problem. The reason that you might not feel emotionally close during sex may not have anything to do with the marriage. It might have to do with sexual trauma in your background. It might have to do with weird messages you've internalized. You know, the reason that marital satisfaction might be low may not actually be about the marriage, but it might be about your own issues. So it's not always saying the spouse is to blame, but it's just saying let's ask the right question.

So for our listeners that are about to rewind and go back because they didn't have a pen ready and they want to write those, they don't want to get in a car accident, say the five things again that are really key. And I love what you said. It's. It's not the. It's not the reason or the focus. It's a symptom. Frequency is a symptom. So list the five things again that really contribute to where frequency takes care of itself.

Okay, so when she frequently orgasms when there's high marital satisfaction, when they feel emotionally close during sex, when there's no porn use and when there's no sexual dysfunction.

Yeah, great list. And I think for a listener like to just think of those five and identify what is the weak point. It's kind of like the, you know, the sides of a barrel. If you've got a five sided barrel and one side is only one inch, but all the other sides are three feet, you can only put an inch of water in that barrel because of your low point. And so among those five, I think every couple could probably say, oh, this is a target area that we need to really address or that I personally need to address so that we can move in a healthy direction.

Yeah, yeah.

And one of the things too that we talk about in the book is that, you know, there are going to be differences in preferences. Right. So it's, it's not that we say sexual frequency takes care of itself, that you'll get all the sex you ever want as long as you address those five issues.

Right.

Because there are, we are going to have different preferences.

Yeah. And there has to be a meeting point between the two.

Yeah, yeah. And so the issue is, we say at the end of the book is if you make a preference a problem, you will generate a problem. So if your mentality is I would prefer to have sex more, so what am I going to do to make you make, make you have sex more?

Right.

Bad attitude. If your mentality is I would prefer to have sex more, how much would you prefer what works for you? You know, are there things that I can do that will make it a better experience for you, that you might want it more? And having those kind of discussions in a humble mutual way that respects each other is going to get you a lot closer than kind of just saying, well, this is what God said you had to give me, so give it to me.

Yeah, yeah.

And, and I don't mean to say that frequency doesn't matter at all. Like you just accept wherever the other person is at. You know, there multiple studies have found, and ours found the same thing too, that once a week is kind of a magic number. It doesn't mean that, that as long as you're having sex once a week, everything will be hunky dory. But less than once a week leads to some marital problems.

And it's highly correlated.

It's highly correlated with marital problems. Once you get to once a week, there's a law of diminishing returns. So things still Improve after once a week, but not as significantly. Yeah, so. So once you're at once a week, that tends to be where this isn't hurting our marital satisfaction. You know, it's now it's just kind of a preference issue. If you're married to someone who really wants sex maybe once a month, you know, that is an issue. And so let's really look at what, what could possibly be going wrong here. And if maybe the issue is there's a three month old and a one and a half year old.

Yes.

And she's getting up in the middle of the night five times, that's probably the issue. And it might just be a temporary thing, but if you have a 12 year old and a 14 year old and you're both working nine to five jobs and you have lots of sleep, then perhaps this is something we need to explore more.

Yeah, and I feel like that's something that's so important to consider too because I mean we're in a season where we've got a five year old and a two year old. So season of life is exhaust. My wife would go to bed at 7:30 every single night if she could, hands down. And honestly she deserves it. High five, babe. Like yes, 100%, you know, but I think that it's easy to interpret like the, maybe the lack of frequency as somehow that we're not as healthy in our marriage. And again, this is something personal for me. It is so easy to interpret that and that turns into a shame message. What can spiral me out into thinking other parts of our marriage are not healthy or I really got to get in there and control this and make it better when it could just be we're really tired because our boys are crazy and they're fun and they're wild and take a lot of energy. So I just, I feel like that's important to just reemphasize here. If you're listening and you're in that season. Season of life does not equal health or unhealth. Just be realistic about the context that you're in for. Sure.

Absolutely.

So you guys talk about myths that we believe about porn and, and then encouraging couples to get real about recovery. How in you guys opinion, how we've been doing recovery wrong and what myths do you think are holding us back?

Well, I think the first thing that we do wrong is a lot of people think that the recovery road to porn is just installing net filters and you know, getting an accountability partner. And now I've done my work of recovery and I'm not facetious. A lot of people think that's the answer. And you guys know that's not the answer. That's the starting point.

Yes.

That's. That's clearing the table so you can actually get to work. Work at the core issues that made you go down this pathway in the first place. So the first myth is that if I, you know, just try harder, pray more, you know, read the right books, do the right things, then it'll be all be fixed without doing the hard work of building my myself.

We found some really interesting stats about different generations too. And I think this is. This is often not well understood because a lot of the people who speak into this area, quite frankly, are either our age or older.

So boomers, Gen X, you guys age. Let's be really, really clear here. I'm sitting over here. Wow. Okay.

We're the old folks, if you look.

At people our age. So Gen X or boomers. We're Gen X, not boomers. Not that old. But anyway, Gen X or boomers. Most people who started watching porn did so after they were married because quite frankly, the Internet was not around before we were married. But if you're looking at people under the age of 40, most porn, you started as teenagers and often very young teenagers. This is a very different experience. And so when boomers try to give advice, their impression is that the reason that you started watching porn was because your wife wasn't having sex enough. Because to them, that's what was going on. That's why the temptation was so great. But that has nothing to do with what is going on with the bulk of the porn users in the younger generation. Because the habit was already there.

Yep.

The other thing that I see and that I'm quite concerned about is I'm afraid that we are doing to boys with regards to porn what we did to girls with regards to purity culture in that, with girls, we gave the impression that if you have sex before you are married, you have ruined your whole life. You had given up the very gift that you are supposed to give to your husband and blah, blah, blah. So your virginity was what made you a good Christian girl. And if that is gone, you can never get it back and you're worthless.

Yeah.

And I'm afraid we're doing the same thing to boys, where if you watch porn, you will so distort your sexuality that you will never be able to have a good marriage. Quite frankly, that's not what we found. If you give up porn before you're married and, and this is important and you give up the pornified style of relating.

Yes.

So you also give up the obligation sex message. You also give up the idea that she should be having sex to keep you from watching porn. So you give up the objectification thing. Your. Your marital and sexual satisfaction is very comparable to people who haven't watched porn. It's not quite as good, but it's pretty darn close. There's not a. There's not a big gap there. And even if you give up porn after you're married, you can still pretty much almost get to that point.

Yeah.

And so I think we need to stop giving a defeatist worldview. Like. Like porn will wreck everything. It won't.

Yeah.

And porn alone also does not do as much harm. Not that. Not that porn's okay. I'm not pleased. I'm not trying to say that.

We hear you.

But what really hurts is this porn combined with the objectification, the idea that my wife exists to meet my sexual needs. When those two things go together, you have a real toxic sludge. And it's not enough to just defeat the point. We need to defeat the whole thing.

Well, I love what you're saying. You're saying recovery is possible and freedom and brain change is possible. And those are all things we advocate and believe in. And I think that is. That's such a great point, the message that we're feeding to young people. And I think it's also confusing because the message that in so many churches goes with that is not only does porn ruin everything, because I think we're maybe trying to scare people away from doing it and how bad it is, but at the same time, there's still kind of a Christian under culture of, well, all men struggle. And this is just lust is a men's issue that all men have. And so, you know, think about being a teenage boy that's hearing both those messages. Like, all men struggle. Lust is just what men do. But also it's ruining my life. Like, I'm caught in a no win situation. And I think you brought that up in our last podcast, Sheila, that we need to give young men a message of, you can be strong, you can be above this, you can make healthy choices. And there's not, you know, you can't do it in isolation. You're not going to make healthy choices if you're having no healthy guardrails. But to really have young men believe, like, not all men have to struggle, that we do have the capacity to, and we may have hormone issues that make it more likely, but Just giving people a framework to say there are ways in which I can walk in freedom. And if I do, then to your point, and if I do, struggle, recovery and healing is possible. I wish those messages were a part of my growing up years and not just the true love waits message.

And the thing about it too is that there's an implication out of that, that then the young women who are hearing these messages in churches are assuming this is just a part of life. Okay, my future husband is just gonna struggle with porn and this is gonna be a reality I'm gonna have to face. And one of the things too, even statistically, I know there's some research out there that's showing that more and more young women are viewing pornography, and especially in the church, if that's what they're hearing the message that this is just what is going to like. I've even heard of young women who seek out porn in the first place to know, to prepare themselves in some way for. If I'm going to have to live up to this certain standard because every man's just going to struggle with porn, then I mean, that's a terrible, like outpouring of that message that we hear in the church. So it's not, I agree with you 100% that young men, that is super detrimental. But there are far reaching implications even in the culture for young people, men and women.

Yeah, I think finally one more myth that I would just say is that marriage doesn't cure porn use. And I know you guys have talked about this, but this is a big thing that a lot of guys get married thinking, now I won't struggle anymore because all I really need is to is the sexual release. And it's just not true. It comes with you because porn and sex are polar opposites. Porn says I want to use you and sex says I want to know you. And they're not, they're not substitutes for one another.

Yeah, yeah. A very complicated way to start a marriage or to be in marriage. And that's why you're writing books, to help people. And we have a ministry to help people. And if you're listening to this podcast, you know, good for you because you are taking steps to say, I want to learn to be healthier. Let's address maybe one other segment of our listeners, you guys, and that's maybe the person that is there listening through, they're just like, you know, I just don't find sex all that great. And maybe they're taking some healthy strides, but they're feeling a little Bit of this sense of, is this all there is to sex? What's an action step or an encouragement you would give to that person that they could take towards having better sex other than buying and reading your book, which would, I'm sure, be great too. But what, what would you say today to help encourage that person that's saying, is this all there is?

Well, first of all, don't blame yourself. Don't blame yourself. Yeah, I think one of the big reasons that we often don't enjoy sex is because of the messages we give ourselves. So think about what's going through your head when you're having sex and you're not enjoying it. What are you saying to yourself, well, what's wrong with me? Everyone else likes this. Why don't I come on? Like, this should be better? How are you ever going to enjoy something when you're constantly accusing yourself of not measuring up? And those are the messages that we so often give ourselves, is, you're not enough. You're not measuring up, you're doing something wrong. And so if that's what you're thinking and feeling, let me reassure you right now, you are not broken. You aren't built wrong. It's not that everyone else is doing this better than you. You just may have a journey you need to go on. And there's nothing wrong with that. So please stop the accusations in your head. And then you may just need to go back to square one. Just enjoy. Forget intercourse for a while. Just figure out what your body enjoys. You know, just spend some time touching each other. Even take intercourse off the table for a couple of weeks or whatever it is, and figure out how can we make our bodies feel? How do we enjoy just even taking a bath together? Just even, you know, holding each other naked, touching, touching each other without aiming towards orgasm. And then slowly start to add other things. Another big practice is something that's called mindfulness. And you see this, this actually talks about quite a bit in scripture. It's just not. That's. That word's not being used, but the idea of taking every thought captive, you know, the idea of being, being present, and having your body and your mind inhabit the same space at the same time. And that, that's actually a difficult thing to do because if you're having sex and then your mind starts accusing you of all of these things, you're no, you're no longer being what's called embodied. So you're not actually having your mind and your body go through the same thing. Your mind is off somewhere Else accusing you. And so learning how to just be present. Concentrate on what you're feeling. You know, let your mind go there. And anytime your mind starts to accuse you of anything or judge what's going on, you change it and you just focus on what am I feeling. You focus on your breathing, you focus on different body parts. You focus on your spouse's body parts. You know, you just focus on, here's what I'm experiencing. And I really think turning off a lot of the accusations in our mind is. Is one of the biggest steps that can open up desire and sexual response.

Yeah, that's good. I mean, I just, I even think of if you need to call time out, like, that's even okay to give yourself that space. And that's. I think even, you know, couples are able to, like, give each. Give each other permission to say, if you need to call time out when we're having sex, that's okay. So that it's not interpreted like, what am I doing wrong? Why are we pausing? But just, I think, opening up the conversation. We've talked about that a lot on the podcast. Is having conversation about sex between a couple is so powerful for a relationship and not just having those conversations as you're like, on ramping into having sex, but, like, outside of the bedroom, have conversations about it and allowing that to bring some intimacy, some understanding together which will benefit your sex life, but ultimately your relationship too.

Well, one of the things Sheila found in her focus groups was that women who had been in marriages where the obligation sex message was believed, you know, by her, the woman, and was causing problems was she just talked to her husband and the husband said, what? No, I don't think that way. I don't feel you're obliged. I want this to be something that's good for both of us. So just sometimes getting it out on the table, what you're actually thinking can just take a huge load off and open you up to a lot more joy and freedom. But I think that it's really important for the men to not just say, I don't want you to feel obliged, but to show what they're actually.

Yes.

Kind of like you were saying earlier there, like, you know, if. If we are. The one thing I would say to guys is try to not be directional about sex. If it's goal oriented, then that's so much pressure on your wife.

Right.

Whether the goal is that you're going to have or intercourse or whether the goal is she's going to orgasm or whatever it is. Like when it's goal directed. There's pressure, pressure, pressure. Just enjoy each other, have fun with each other. And if it turns out in the middle of it, she says, you know what? I don't think this is going to happen for me tonight. Be okay with that. And, you know, and if you're not in the place where you're mature enough to do that yet, learn how to be like that so that you and value non sexual touch. Because a lot of women don't know that they want to be, you know, sexual with you tonight until you start kind of, you know, putting your hand in the small of her back, you know, kissing her on the neck and then she's like, whoa, maybe I am interested tonight. You know, but we as men sort of think of sex as sex and all that other stuff is kind of extra.

Yeah.

Being very open to non sexual touch is a real key to just making your sex life come alive. We're not goal oriented. I'm just going to enjoy you. Yeah. And I'm going to let you feel great and then we'll see where that goes. And if it goes to, you know, home plate, fantastic. If it goes somewhere else and we have fun, fantastic. Yeah, let's just enjoy each other. That's what I would say to rev your sex.

Well, and it occurs to me what you guys are saying is how important communication is in marriage. And I think we all know that. We're told like, oh, you need to communicate in marriage. But most of us think about things like, well, we need to communicate about our schedules and where we're going, going for vacation. We need to communicate about, you know, our wants and eat. But it's really communicating at that emotional level being able to communicate about preferences, sexual things that many of us just didn't learn the language of talking about these things. And so I think growth in communication is what is needed in so many of these areas. And we hope that the podcast and your books are a big part of helping couples communicate better.

Absolutely. So if people do, because they're going to be thousands of people who now want to buy your books, where can they get the Good Girl's Guide to Great Sex and then the Guys Great Guide, Great Men's. You know what I'm talking about. We'll make sure it's in the show notes, all the words. Yes.

Good Guys Guide to Great Sex. Good Girls Guide to Great Sex. You can get them anywhere, books are sold, Amazon, christianbook.com, anything like that. My, my blog to Love, Honor and Vacuum.com has links to all of the books, including the original Great Sex Red where we were first talking about that on several other shows. And it's got our courses, our orgasm course, our puberty course to share with your kids. There's links to my podcast, my social media, so you can find everything at to love honorandvacuum.com or the good Girls, Good Guys Guides to Great Sex wherever you look for books.

That's awesome. Well, we will have that stuff in the show notes. Keith, Sheila, you guys are awesome. And I don't know if sometimes people just say that, but we genuinely mean it. We are big fans of what you guys are doing, the conversations that you're having, and that it's not just opinions, like you're looking at actual facts and formulating opinions, approaches based on what's reality, based on not just a cultural upbringing, but what you're actually seeing played out. And so we have tons of respect for you guys and the work that you're doing. And Sheila and Keith, we will continue to have you on the podcast because you are some of our favorite people. So thank you so much for your time today. We appreciate it.

Thank you.

It's just been a pleasure. Thanks so much.

And wherever you're at at on your journey, Pure Desire is here to help create a road map for your healing. If you or someone you know is impacted by sexual brokenness or betrayal trauma, go to PureDesire.org and let's start the healing journey today. Don't forget to subscribe to the podcast. Each week we put out new content to help you on the road to healing and freedom. Lastly, never stop being healthy.