252 - Pastors, Church Leaders, & Sexual Misconduct

You're listening to the Pure Desire podcast, your safe place to find hope, healing and freedom from sexual addiction, betrayal and relationship issues.

Hello.

Hello. I'm your host, Trevor Windsor, and you're listening to episode 252 of the Pure Desire podcast here joining me as always, is my co host, Nick Stumbo.

Well, I went down in a burning ring of fire.

That was a decent Johnny Cash.

Yeah, it's probably the best I got.

I mean, there was a little bit of Elvis mixed in there, you know.

Like a little bit of fire. It's so good. That's.

Are you a Johnny Cash fan?

Yeah. I mean, I appreciate the uniqueness of his tone and I mean the Johnny Cash story I think is very interesting. Just he's got quite a mix of faith and struggle and brokenness that is really kind of very apropos to the podcast discussion today.

Well, let's get to it. We had Rodney Wright, our advancement specialist, on to talk about really what we have seen, the Ravi Zacharias situation, the accusations and really sexual misconduct amongst Christian leaders.

Yeah, this was one of our top read blogs of all time. And you know, I wrote it at a time when the investigation came out with their preliminary report. And I think that's why it got some legs because a lot of people were just hearing about it and found the stuff that I was writing. And it, it just hits us on a lot of levels where we're just like, how could this happen? What do we do about it? What's going wrong? And I think in our conversation today, that's what we're trying to address because we're honestly a little tired of seeing Christian leaders go down in a burning ring of fire. And it feels like it's going to just keep happening unless we have conversations. And I think what we're trying to bring to this conversation is not just the what happened and what went wrong, because I honestly, I've read a lot of blogs and articles that are just all about what went wrong and very little about what do we do? How could we change what needs to happen next? And that's our heartbeat. We believe in the church and we love the church. And ironically, to quote Bill Hybels who said, the church is the hope of the world. We believe that, but we also believe it's possible for the church to do better in how it raises up leaders and how it helps leaders be healthy. And so I hope for both leaders and non leaders alike, I think there's a lot here for us to all process because the truth is, even if we're not a leader, we are all being impacted by what's happening in these stories. And as we watch our leaders fall, we're all impacted. So hopefully for you listeners that are not pastors or leaders, for you today is kind of like, yeah, I've been wanting to talk about this, and in hearing our conversation, it'll be an invitation for you to engage as well in whatever way God leads you.

Yeah, I really feel like this conversation was excellent. I really enjoyed us talking about this. I feel like we have a unique perspective on it as previous pastors, but then also just people who sit in a place where we're helping people with sexual brokenness. So really excited for you to hear this episode before we get to it. Real quick, subscribe to the podcast if you're not a subscriber. Honestly, why, like, that's where I'm at. Why, like, it doesn't cost anything. Just press a button. You press buttons on your phone all the time. Just subscribe and if you can, write us a review. It helps other people see. The podcast means a lot to us. Also, follow us on social media, Facebook, Twitter, and instagramuredesirepdmi. If you'd like to consume video content. The full episode of this will be up on YouTube. Just search Pure Desire Ministries. And then Nick, you know, on. It feels. Feels like it just lines up with Rodney being our advancement specialist. But we like to circle around and talk about something that Rodney actually mentioned in the episode Team 58. What's Team 58?

Yes. Trevor, have you ever been a part of a team? I know you have.

Yes.

You know, I think all of us have, whether it was college, sports, a work team, like that sense of I was a part of something that accomplished something far greater than any one of us could have alone and knowing I had a role to play. And for us, that's what Team 58 is all about. It comes out of Isaiah, chapter 58, where we read that some of you will be known as those who rebuild the fallen cities and restore the broken walls. This idea that when there is health and healing in my life, God uses me to be a part of that in someone else's life. And so Team 58 coming out of Isaiah 58 is all of those that are participating with us. They're on the team with Pure Desire through monthly financial contributions, because together we are helping take this message of recovery, of freedom of life, transformation through Christ and the gospel, being partnered with recovery from sexual brokenness to places that otherwise none of us could do alone and so we just invite people. If you've been impacted by this ministry, if it's made a difference in your life, be a part of the team and do it in a tangible way that can help us continue to move this mission forward to help more people than we are currently. Yeah.

So if you want to be a part of helping people take their life back from sexual brokenness and betrayal trauma, go to PureDesire.org give. All right, here is our conversation with Rodney Wright on sexual misconduct among Christian leaders. Rodney writes, it has been. I feel like it's been a while since we've had you on the podcast. It's good to see you again, man. Thanks for being with us.

It's great to be with you guys.

We. We like having Rodney in person. I'll just say Rodney came, stayed at my house with my family a couple weeks ago, and we loved it. We love Uncle Rod at our house.

Took us all out for lunch.

Oh, yeah, you did those Cajun tots.

Yep, yep, yep. And we played Duck Duck Goose with Brady and Brooks.

That's right, Brooks. That's right, we did.

I'm glad you clarified that was with Trevor's boys and not with the staff lunch playing. I just imagine us playing Duck Duck Goose out there at McMinimous. That would have been too hard to.

Get up from the ground.

Oh, my gosh.

Seriously. So we are. And I know it's kind of a weird thing to say with the topic we're talking about, but we are excited genuinely to have this conversation today. As many of us know, sexual misconduct in Christian leadership comes up a lot and way more frequently than any of us wish. It seems like every few months there's another high level, influential leader that's accused of sexual misconduct or some form of abuse. Sexual abuse. And so we wanted to talk about this topic and give some direction on how to change this really sad trend. I know, Nick, for you, I mean, both you and Rodney having so much experience in Christian leadership inside the church as pastors. And Nick, you wrote a really popular blog on our website about this as well, addressing, really Ravi Zacharias and that situation and sexual misconduct. And so we hope that. And I just, I want to say this. I know we said it in the intro, too. I just really want to make sure people understand that this is not a pointing finger or bashing people. This is trying to take an autopsy of the culture that we have and really look at ways that we can improve this. So let's just jump in with this. It's been about 16 months. Almost a year and a half since news of Ravi Zacharias first came out, and. And about a year since the full investigation was released. As we look back on just the revelation of all the abuse that was taking place, what do you think we've learned?

Well, I think we've learned maybe what's been there all along, but we haven't done well as a church, and I say that, myself included in church leadership, we haven't done well just communicating healthy sexuality. And that subject has kind of gone underground, and it hasn't served the church well. And a lot of these people who struggle don't know where to go or how to process that. And so I think it's just let us continue to realize that we still have problems and what are some proactive ways we can begin to address this down the road.

Yeah, there's several things that come to mind for me, you know, looking back at that time, and I think we're seeing it in numerous ways over the last year and a half. It's how within a ministry or within a leader's life, there comes a point where protecting their reputation becomes more important than actually dealing with needs and areas of growth. And it's, to me, so unfortunate because it misses the reality that no matter how high you go as a leader, you're still just a human. You're still just an imperfect, broken man or woman that needs community and accountability and support and has areas of weakness. And we heard the same thing for listeners that maybe went through the Rise and Fall of Mars Hill podcast, that there came a point at which Mark Driscoll and Mars Hill's reputation was to be defended basically at all costs, because there was this fear that if the reputation is tarnish, we'll lose everything. And ironically, in defending the reputation and ignoring some. Some unhealthy things, in both the Mars Hill story and Ravi Zacharias, in the end, it caused far more damage by not addressing it. And so I think that's an area we have to look at is when does defending a reputation become more important than being healthy? The other thing I've seen a lot is just the reminder that addicts are really good at lying. And I know that from my own story and a lot of listeners as well. You know, we've seen some of Ravi Zacharias family come out and say, I don't think this is tr, because I would have seen it, or I would have known about it, or I didn't see any of this. And yet these investigative reports paint a pretty undeniable picture of what was going on, but it was all happening outside of the purview of his friends and family. And so their insistence on, oh, it can't be true, I think just reminds me, unfortunately, it's far too easy to live that double life to lie to yourself so well and lie to the people around you so well that not only do they believe it, but you believe it too. I'm actually a really good person except for all this other stuff that nobody knows about. And then the third and final thing I was thinking about in looking back is maybe just the way people have reacted to whether it's the Ravi news or so many other leaders that have. Now we hear the information, the two extremes, the one being all male leaders are horrible. I can't trust any of them. Every man is just out to abuse women. And it's in this day and age where we hear so much on social media and the Internet that it's easy to think, well, this is everyone all the time, everywhere. And we maybe lose sight of, there are good people, there are people trying to do it the right way. And so hopefully those that have gone to the extreme of just I don't trust any leader, realize that that can be a fair but trauma driven response that we need to work through. And on the other side, the other extreme I think is just as unhealthy. That's like, well, we, you know, we really shouldn't make that big of a deal of it because look at all the good Ravi did and look at, and kind of going back to that. We need to defend the reputation and almost being dismissive of what, no, we don't really need to address Christian culture. We don't really need, this isn't that big of a problem. This was just that one person and so let's all just forgive him and move on. I think that's an equally unhealthy extreme that both extremes kind of keep us from having this healthy middle view to say there are some serious problems in Christian leadership, not with every leader and not all the time. And we shouldn't just live with this jaded, trauma based worldview, but at the same time there are serious issues that need to be addressed. And so I think we've seen a lot of the extremes in the last year or so and I just hope the church will start to have a more balanced approach to say we need to pursue health for all of our leaders.

To your point about the reputation of the church, I think it's interesting that the reason why we protect that is we somehow think that our evangelism will be negatively impacted, like, somehow reaching the world if they knew we weren't perfect. Oh, no. You know, and it's like. No, it's actually when we cover that up, that's what hurts our evangelism. And it's interesting if you look at the culture, the culture likes transparency and vulnerability and honesty about these things. And it's weird. It feels like the world is more comfortable entering into broken spaces than even the church is. And so it's this interesting flip where if we did start to be a little bit more honest and not protect the reputation of our leaders when it comes to this or even our churches, we may actually find that that's a better evangelism tool. So that's definitely one thing for me. And then the other thing is just thinking about how we educate our leaders and pastors, because oftentimes it's all head knowledge and really no hands and heart. I mean, it's great that you know how to craft a sermon. It's great that you know how to unpack Hebrew and Greek respect. I don't know how to do that. Way to go. However, if you don't know how to manage yourself emotionally, if you don't know how to pursue health in your own life, if you don't know the implications of any level of sexual brokenness in your own life, then when you get into situations where the stress and the ups and downs of ministry and the weight that you carry, it's going to blow up. And so I think that. And I speak as a current seminary student right now, I have not had anything in regards to sexual education, sexual brokenness, recovery, emotional health. There are things that are on the periphery, but they are not something that you outright have to take. And so I think that's one thing we've learned, is that if we want to see Christian leadership really take a turn toward having sexual health, emotional health, and see these cases diminish, we need to start educating people from, like, an actual institutional perspective as well.

You're jumping ahead and answering all the rest of the questions, Trevor. So let's keep going.

It's fresh.

So let's talk about this angle, guys. Why do you feel this keeps happening among Christian leadership? Because as you already said in the intro, Trevor, it feels like no matter when a person listens to this episode, there's probably a fresh story that they'll be thinking of. Like, oh, my goodness. Yeah, I just heard about this person. So why do we think this keeps happening? And why does it seem like we see so many examples of sexual misconduct, even among what we would think of as highly revered leaders.

Well, first of all, I would simply say that if you're listening to this podcast and you've been hurt by a religious leader, you're a male or female, and no one has had a chance to make amends or say, on behalf of the church, I'm sorry for the hurt that was caused you. Let us be the ones that say that and encourage you to seek whatever help you need to process that hurt and trauma that you've navigated. And then to answer that question, Nick, I just think religion overall has done a very poor job in knowing how to talk about human sexuality in an open, honest way. I think that culture has done better just in talking about sexuality, more open about it. And that's why I'm grateful for voices out there that are helping churches begin to see healthy sexuality as a part of their discipleship. And that's what sexual integrity 101 is. That should be a part of every church's discipleship, because people are learning about sexual integrity. This is why Traci and I are so passionate about educating families about how to talk with your kids about sexual. Not seeing sex overall as a negative subject. We're just not comfortable in talking about that. And so the more you create a healthy framework just to start talking about sex, a lot of these leaders grew up where they didn't talk about it. It became such a secret. And so I think, you know, that's why it's difficult. And then I think the church puts a lot of emphasis on the auditorium and the stage. And the Body of Christ is more about a. A circle and a table where we. Where we pull up and we relate to one another. And it takes more courage to own your negative sexual history than to speak in front of an audience of 100,000.

Totally.

You know, Yeah. I think of the scripture, Proverbs 16:32, the man is blessed who rules his own spirit than the man who takes a city. You know, there's something just about looking in your own soul and owning your negative sexual history.

Yeah.

And this is what I love about the AA group. And I'm not saying that, you know, they do everything perfect, but I think there's a lot we can learn from them that they seek to admit to God, yourself, and one other person to the nature of the way that you've wronged someone else. And then step nine is to do the best you can to make amends with that person when it's not causing injury to them or someone else. And that takes a lot of courage. Most of us just want to pray it goes away. But for those of us that have been in group, that have been in counseling, that have seeked to have made amends, we know that takes courage. You know, to own your stuff and look at the people that you've hurt or offended and say, hey, I need to own that. That's what brings credibility to people, is that this religion isn't just hell insurance. And we don't just value people being a talking head on a stage, but we're called into community. That's why I'm so passionate about our pure desire groups. They are the church. We're inviting people into healthy, authentic community where our souls can be healed, you know? And so I'm going to take a breath, let you guys start talking.

Okay? You got it. I think one of the things that I see in church culture is putting pastors and Christian leaders on a pedestal as if they're a professional Christian. They're somehow closer to God or higher up and man, almost like there's a tiered system in the kingdom. And it's like when I read scripture, there's no such thing. We're all kind of. I mean, we all wear the varsity jersey in heaven. No one's on the JV team. But I think that when you grow up or when you're educated and you're being trained as a leader in the church and you live in that culture, there's this perception that I can't share who I truly am from the stage. I can't truly be honest. And a lot of this, too, comes with fear of, like, what will people want from me? Or how will people use this information to get something from me? So much of ministry is pouring yourself out for the benefit of other people. I mean, shepherding is. It's no joke. It's a lot of work. And I think that the culture that we create in the church creates the type of leader that that culture asks for, which is someone who looks perfect on the outside and who has all the gifts maybe from the stage, but really their integrity doesn't matter. And I think that that culture just continues to perpetuate the cycle that we're seeing.

Yeah, and we're going to get into the culture question more. But it makes me think of Peter Scazzero and his work on emotionally healthy spirituality. You know, he makes the statement in that first book he wrote saying it is not possible to be spiritually mature while at the Same time being emotionally immature, because he connects the two and invites us to redefine spiritual maturity. And I think that's part of this culture question where we've said, oh, to be spiritually mature means you can read your Bible, pray and preach and sound wise like. But there's often no correlation to actual emotional, relational, sexual health. And so I think that's why we keep seeing this happen, is just because someone has an esteemed position or a large church or a big influential ministry that does not correlate to emotional and sexual health. And I think what's happening is because of people's giftedness and skill, they're achieving places of great influence without sincere questions being asked of their emotional, relational, sexual health. And we just. We perpetuate that because we're not really connecting. To be spiritually mature has to involve more than just being able to quote Greek and Hebrew.

Exactly.

Spiritual maturity is also emotional, relational, sexual health.

Yep.

Yeah, Nick, I can't echo that enough. That's the very same words that my therapist said to me in my 20s when he looked across his desk and said, basically, rodney, you're immature. That made me angry. I wanted to bop him in the nose. I mean, I thought I was pretty spiritually mature. But he was right, because I didn't understand holistic spirituality, the integration of the way of God in my emotions and my traumas and in my sexuality. And I think we're not taught that. That's not something that we get educated on. And so this is part of the issue is not seeing a holistic approach and not seeing maturity from a holistic point of view.

So let's get into that, because the approach that we so often see is just creating greater accountability. You know, and before we even started recording the idea of Ravi Zacharias and, you know, there were areas in his life where he had accountability, but then there were areas where he didn't. So why is this general, this common approach of just more accountability not the answer to solving this problem?

Because the mafia have accountability. They don't have integrity. There's a difference.

Right.

So integrity is about the integration of truth in areas of our life, not just, I made a mistake and I'm going to clear my chest. It's more than confession. It's about competent resources and truth that help us heal. And it's about inviting people and resources to kind of help us in that journey that we have to do. And so I think it's way more than accountability. It starts with education and humility. Those are the big pieces about learning to grow, implement and be humble.

Yeah. I think of it as to say all the accountability in the world doesn't touch the heart.

Yeah.

You know, accountability is behavior focused, controlling behavior. And there is a place for accountability. There's wisdom in guardrails and accountability. But just like we found with people in groups and accountability software, if it's still on your heart to look at porn, you will find a way to do it. No matter what devices are locked down and what's like, there is amazing creativity in going back into those old patterns. And so even if someone, you know, a leader has the Billy Graham rule, they always travel with someone, or they've got the Andy Stanley rule that they don't travel in vehicles or go out to meals with someone of the opposite sex. Those are great general principles. But if you read like the Ravi Zacharias report, he found a lot of other ways even within his accountability structure to still get away with a whole lot of stuff. And so that's the question of greater accountability doesn't lead to a greater transformation of heart. And so yes, we do need to look at how do we help leaders have healthy accountability structures, but not rely on that alone to transform the heart. Because if they're not allowed or given space and permission to lean into heart issues and get significant help there, like I said, all the accountability in the world doesn't create transformation.

No. And I think that that's what I mean, just the way I thought of it is accountability doesn't equal intimacy. Because you can be accountable to someone who doesn't actually know you because you're just really sharing. You're only sharing what you want to share. I mean, that's why we see accountability groups, they become binge purge groups. How'd you do this week? Well, and it's like, well, is that person going to be honest when they're asked that question? You don't know. But if you can really get to the surface, which is what our groups help us do, people get to know you at an intimate level, who you are, what motivates you, what wounds that you have. And that's what starts to make that change, not the accountability. So I, but I don't know, I just, I always think of this, Rodney, every time I hear the word intimacy, I hear you say into me. You see, I mean, that idea of being truly known and if we know this, we've talked about this a lot, that the opposite addiction is not sobriety, it's connection. That means being known in a community of other people, accountability doesn't offer us that outright.

And the stage can't give us that. That's what relationships give us. And so sometimes in Western church, we put a lot of eggs in that stage basket. What's said and done on a stage, rather than inviting our young ministers or those in training into authentic community groups, you know, and so this is just where being an advocate for the training and healthy sexuality and knowing that with your. With your negative sexual history, you can be known and not live in fear of that the rest of your life, you know, you can find healing from that. And I think a lot of, I know, myself included back in my 20s, so afraid that if people knew me, they would. Wouldn't love me and reject me. Starting from my minister father to people that were my co workers, you know, and you're so concerned about the ego rather than just you're the beloved son of God and you're worthy of being loved. And so show up and let God heal you. That's all God's trying to do is heal us.

Yeah.

So let's, let's lean into that. Rodney, that, that idea of the. The pressures and challenges those in Christian leadership do face, and this is male and female. And so do you think that the challenges Christian leaders face in regards to their sexual purity is the same as someone who's not in Christian leadership? And in what ways are they the same, and in what ways might their challenges be different because of the roles that they're serving in?

Well, I think they're the same is that we've all. The temptation's common unto man. So I think we're like my brother who's a butcher and one that sells insurance. Another, the one that's a minister. We all laugh and say, hey, we're all the same. We all put our pants on one leg at a time. And so I think the temptation is all the same to everybody. I think it's harder for those within the church because of this. We don't have a healthier way to talk about sexuality. So it becomes even more of a shameful thing to even talk about. I don't think it's, you know, I think whether you're a preacher or a plumber, you can be tempted the same in managing your sexuality and decisions you make and how you maybe use sex to process trauma. But I think it's just, we all face it, but I think the church doesn't know how to normalize our sexual feelings and, you know, really just realize that not all sexual feelings are lust or bad. They just have to be managed and stewarded in a healthy way. So, quick little story. I am with high school boys, just high school boys. And I say to these high school boys, guys, I want you to learn how to integrate your faith in your sexuality. So, high school boys, when you have an erection, boys, I want you to say to God, thank you for this ability. And they looked at me like I was crazy because I said, most of you are trying to hide from God. And then say this prayer to God. God, help me to manage this in a way that honors myself and honors other people. It's not denying sexuality, but it's realizing, oh, that's an awareness. Now I have to be a good steward of this gift. And where can I talk about stewardship? Who do I have those relationships with? Well, if we help mom and dad, and we help church leaders train parents, if SI101 can be a part of this discipleship piece, then I think we can help, really help the church move forward in this arena.

Yeah. I think unrealistic expectations from the church, and that's church leadership from the congregation. Unrealistic expectations can create a unique aspect to someone who's in church leadership, that you're supposed to have it all together or present a certain face or a certain style from stage. And then also, I think. I don't know. I mean, I've been in ministry my entire professional career. I've been in and around ministry. And so I haven't been a plumber or a mechanic because I would be terrible at both those things. But what I've realized is that there is a performance, like a pressure to perform in ministry that seems unique, as if somehow I am a actual beacon representative of the Lord in the church. It's like the highest calling. We put it up there as the highest calling in the world. And there's this pressure to perform that if the church isn't growing, it's my fault. If the church isn't developing a good discipleship model, it's my fault. If people's marriages are blowing up in the church, it's my fault. And those are things that are not true yet. They are perceptions we carry into ministry based on the culture, our education, experiences we've had in the church. And so I think that those two aspects, the unrealistic expectations and the pressure to perform, create a unique dynamic specific to Christian leaders.

Yeah. And let's be honest. For some people in Christian leadership roles, there is a reality of, if I acknowledge I struggle with pornography, I lose my job. And maybe not just my job My whole career because it becomes known that I was fired from a job because of sexual immorality. What if that's the choice a person is faced with? And I'm not saying we should just give Christian leaders permission like, oh, yeah, it's no big deal to struggle all you want, but if we make that a fireable offense, then people are in this choice of, well, I can either pursue help and lose my career, and then how do I, at the end of the day, pay my bills and take care of my family? And it's the only job I'm trained for. If my degree says BS of pastoral ministry, that's not a very transferable degree. And so I think a lot of men and women just say it's not worth losing my job over. I'll try to get help quietly, privately, secretively, but as we know, in isolation and separated from your community, that healing often does not work. And so there is a double bind there for leaders. But at the same time, that was my answer too, as I tell people that just because I got licensed and ordained and have degrees in ministry doesn't mean I somehow cease to be a man with a brain and hormones and eyeballs and a history and a family of origin and all the wounds and. And there are very few places along the way that I, as leader, I was really invited to investigate those things. And so I think that's kind of the two sided reality we have to keep in mind for Christian leaders is, yes, in one regard they're the same and we need to allow them to be the same and pursue health and recovery and healing. And in the other regard, take seriously that there are some significant pressures put on them that actually should further convince us we need to provide help in these areas. Because there are these pressures to perform, to be all things to all people, to look like they have their life together, which will actually create environments where they might be even more likely to struggle. So again, not to ever say that's an excuse or we should, you know, just dismiss any kind of personal responsibility, but actually to help us look into the environment and say we need to provide more help because of a structure that kind of makes it hard for them to acknowledge weakness.

Yep, totally.

Yeah. Think about those leaders that we're aware of. You mentioned one at the beginning of this podcast, you know, but just all the leaders that we know that have struggled at some area. I remember going to a college in the Deep south in the 80s where the guy was caught, you know, this big TV preacher caught and gets up and Says, I have sinned. And I'm thinking as an 18 year old in the balcony, hey, there are two of us. And I thought he was going to lead the way in his 50s, talking about unhealthy sexuality and what health and healing look like. But in that religious culture, it wasn't safe to go there and talk about that. And I don't say that to condemn that individual. I actually feel sorry for him, you know, and the people that have been hurt. And I just think the church needs tribal elders. What if all these individuals could own their story? It doesn't have to define them. And now they took the very thing that the enemy tried to ruin their life with, saw it redeemed and offered it as a gift to the next generation. Right. That's what I love about Dr. Ted Roberts and Patrick Carnes and Pure Desire and all the men and women that are on board here and all those that Give through Team 58 to help us move the mission down the field and what's being produced by Pure Desire. Man, we are helping and helping churches click forward in this arena. And I'm really grateful we get to be on the proactive side of this.

So let's, I mean, let's lean into that even more. Like what, what needs to change? Is it culture? Like how we do church? Do we need to change our view of leadership? What needs to change inside the church in order to address this issue?

I think competent people educating the church about we're made in God's image and what God made was good. That's what God originally said. It's very good. We know that sin has affected our ability to see our worth and value, the worth and value of others. Sin is that issue we have to deal with, but not, first of all, just demonizing human sexuality as lust and bad and evil. Again, this is just giving young parents, giving young adults, giving people a healthy way to view human sexuality. Not just see it as lust or bad or evil, but as a gift that has to be managed and steward. Here's some of us that are going have gone before you and learned and we're going to turn now as tribal elders. Right. Gray hair, no hair, or you color your hair once a month. And we're helping the next generation behind us know how to maybe, maybe something healthier than we got growing up.

Yeah, I think the question kind of comes down to people feeling like, well, is it the church that needs to change or leaders? And a lot of people go to that leadership side of just, well, we need better leaders. We need healthier leaders. It's, this was a Ravi Zacharias problem. So we need to not have him. We need to have better leaders. And it just makes me think about, though, this idea that the system you're in is perfectly designed to get the results that you're getting. And the fact that we look around and we continue to see leader after leader fall prey to these problems of sexual misconduct and enter into these unhealthy lifestyle choices. We need to look at the culture that that's what we're producing. And I'm not saying any one of us needs to take blame like, oh, it's my fault that Ravi Zachariah did these things. No, his choices, his behaviors are his responsibility and rightly should be condemned. But on the other hand, we need to look at, we keep getting these same results. And what I look at is how for most Christian leaders, not all of them, but most Christian leaders grew up in environments in homes that didn't talk about sexuality in a healthy discipling way, went to churches that did not talk about sexuality in a holistic discipling way, maybe just gave the no sex before marriage talk, and then went to seminaries and Bible colleges that did not talk about sex in healthy and redemptive ways. And so then we're surprised when they go into ministry and they don't know how to talk about their own sexual brokenness or how to address it. So somehow we feel like, well, leaders just need to be better at doing that when all the environments they're trained and raised in aren't doing that for them either. So it's kind of convenient for us to look and say, well, leaders just need to be better. Because they do. They do need to be better. But on the other hand, we need to look at our church systems and culture and say, if the water line doesn't go up in all of our churches in being able to address sexual brokenness, it's not going to go up in the lives of our leaders either. It's not like these two things can happen independently of one another. So to me, it's a huge both. And. But I think for us, anyone listening who's not in Christian leadership and might feel like, well, this is just a leadership issue. It's like, no, this is kind of an all of us together, like, we need to help raise the waterline in our churches and in our homes, because then we're going to start producing different kinds of leaders.

I don't know if it's Albert Einstein or Thomas Edison or someone smarter than me would know this. Someone who's probably good at Jeopardy. Would know this. But the quote of an idiot or a moron is someone who does the same thing over and over again and expects different results.

That's the definition of insanity is the quote.

Idiot, moron, insanity, whatever. But it's such a true thing to what you're saying. And I think that for me, again, as a seminary student currently, I wish I had more of this. I've started to have some conversations, but honestly, it's really hard to break in and have this conversation in institutions because we get stuck in our old ways. And I think that something that I've seen both of you do in your leadership, both of you men do in your marriages and in your life, is model humility. And I think that that's what needs to be change. There needs to be a posture of humility from the top down. Everybody needs to have humility in how we approach things, how we're educating our churches, how we're educating our pastors and leaders, and honestly start paying attention. I feel like one of the things that gets thrown out the window is science and research. Those are things that I feel like organizations like Barna, you know, are really pushing more and more into the church. But historically, the church just kind of like, well, this is what the Bible says, so we're going to do it. And it's like, well, have you ever considered that if you do it this way that it causes trauma and this is what happens, happens in the body, and then this creates generational curses and more things like that. I feel like we have to take a humble posture. And one of my favorite quotes from our friend who works here, Mike Maxwell, he says this constantly, chew the meat, spit out the bones. He's like, take what you can from all these different inputs and chew, take in, use it as nutrients, what's beneficial for you and what lines up with what you believe to be true, and the rest of it just thrown out and it's okay. So if you don't like all the things that science is talking about, you don't want to talk about in church, that's fine. But understand that there's a lot of implications to how we handle things. And I think one other just, this is a huge thing. But I'll say it quickly. The way that we handle this, the way that we make decisions in how we're changing our culture, don't just impact the leaders. You have to think about the generations and generations of people that are going to be coming up in Our churches and how their lives are going to be impacted by our handling or mishandling of these situations.

Yeah. Yeah. So let's turn the corner here and really think future, proactive, moving towards health. What could we do to help change the landscape of Christian ministry so that this doesn't keep happening? What do you guys think would help move us in a positive direction here?

Go to the Pure Desire website and purchase the Sexual Integrity 101 and be a champion here, your church. To have this part of your discipleship. Shout out to Pastor Nate Day, Canvas Church, Coeur d', Alene, Idaho. He's starting Sexual Integrity 101 as a part of his discipleship. What is it? Seven percent of churches, Nick, seven and a half only have something to do with sexuality or help people who struggle. All humanity is in need of recovery. We've all been affected by sin. So let's get over the recovery word and let's move into being proactive. And so call Rodney and Tracy at Pure Desire to come to a parent training. Call Heather and Ashley, have a men's conference, a women's conference. Help your church, talk about and bring in educators that can begin to build another framework for you to begin to have these conversations with your congregation. Again, this is why I put my hat in the ring with Pure Desire, because I love what God's doing and what's being produced that can help the local church.

Yeah, I mean, there's so many different things. I mean, something that comes to mind is just, I would love to see leaders leading the way and sharing their story. To not be controlled by fear, to be willing to open the door to their own level of brokenness. Because believe it or not, every pastor in the world is a sinner and has sin. And it doesn't mean they need to bleed all over the congregation or bleed all over their people. But to just know that these leaders that are influential and are shepherding people are human beings that experience the same exact thing as everyone else experiences in life. That's the first thing. And the second thing is just education. I mean, educating on not just how big the problem is, but the impact of this problem. You think about. You know, I just wrote a paper for my ethics class on this and, you know, exploring Ravi Zacharias. Then we had a local guy, Arta Zurdia, who, you know, were in these big, influential positions and reading the stories of the women that were sexually abused by them. And the impact that's going to have for the rest of their life is heartbreaking. And so it's not just an education on the prevalence of the issue, but also the long term impact of it. And I think there's this like, there's this fear of I'll become this like fear monger if I talk about these things from the stage. I don't want to continually bring it up over and over again. But I think that that fear actually has far reaching negative effects in our churches if we aren't willing to educate and then have conversations about it.

Yeah, the word I think of that Rodney used too is discipleship. I think we need to change the conversation from being disciplined because usually sexual brokenness becomes a discipline issue and no one, you know, likes that, to being a discipleship issue of just realizing men and women are sexual beings, whether they're ordained or not. They're sexual beings that need to be discipled and trained. And changing that conversation for leaders I think is key. Another thing I thought of is we really need to create pathways for leaders to get help. And if we're in any kind of leadership role that can open that up for someone that we're leading to say, here's the pathway I want you to take. And even expecting that a young leader needs to, to take that approach to getting sexually healthy. Because if we don't offer that, we're actually communicating something. By not offering it, we're communicating. We don't cover this here and if you have that problem, you better fix it. Because if you bring it up, it's a discipline issue. But when we offer the pathway and we encourage it, we say, we know that you are a sexual being who probably has sexual issues. We'd like you to, as part of your development as a leader, we want you to take this pathway towards recovery, towards. And maybe they don't even need recovery. Maybe they're saying, well, I'm not an addict, I don't really struggle that bad. But we asked the question of a leader. Have you ever had someone disciple you into sexual maturity? And they're like, now we don't talk about that.

What is that?

Okay, well, we have a path for you that's just about being discipled and trained. The last thing I would encourage, I think what would create change is we need to listen. We need to listen. You were mentioning this, Trevor. We need to listen to victims sooner and earlier. Because if someone's sexual misconduct goes to the level of impacting other people, if we could address that fully with the first hint of it, we could prevent a lot of future pain and a lot of future struggle in this leader's life and avoid having future victims. So I think that's something we're seeing in the church at large. Sadly, we have not done well at validating victims and listening and investigating claims to find out is it true or not. Because if it's not true, well, then let's celebrate that and let's look for how even that investigation could be redemptive of helping us have better accountability, better authenticity and openness. And if the investigation reveals there's something amiss that needs to be addressed, we should praise God for that, that we found it soon and dealt with it. So listen. And the other thing I would say is we need to also listen to our instincts. Because I've heard so many leaders that were on the. Maybe they were on the elder board, they were on the governing board, and they will say, boy, several years earlier, I just. I felt like something was off. We heard something about the way they were traveling. We heard something about an accusation, and something in their gut just said, something feels off. I would encourage, I think we need to start listening to that and have the boldness, out of love, for one another to say, here's something I'm feeling and I'm wondering what's going on. And I love you enough, I care about you enough that I need to ask what's going on here? Could we have that conversation and doing it again out of love and discipleship, not out of discipline and condemnation, because I think we could change. That's what breaks my heart about the Ravi story. It's like, what if in his 30s, he knew he could get help and there was someone in his life saying, ravi, I know you say you have this lower back issue and you're getting a lot of massages. Something in me just feels like there's an issue here. Could we talk like, what if that had happened decades earlier? I think what we see in Ravi Zach Christ is the outcome of decades of unaddressed unhealth. And had it been addressed earlier, the difference in this whole story, I just. That's what I want to see.

Well, and the interesting thing, and one of the things I explored in the paper, is that there's a fear of creating controversy by bringing something forward toward a really influential leader. And maybe you're at a, you know, a church of a hundred people, but the pastor's very influential in that community of 100 people. There's fear of, if I say this, will I be believed? Will it be controversial? Will I get kicked out of the church? And oftentimes that fear keeps us from stepping forward and saying something which if we don't step forward and it's not, I need to be careful and say this. It's not. If you have experienced that and you have not stepped forward, the pain and trauma and the maybe abuse that has taken place in the future is not your fault. I just want to say that that is not your fault or your responsibility. But if we can overcome fear and really step into, even if this is going to be controversial or not to be honest about what we see, the impact will be greater in the long run, even though it may be really uncomfortable up front.

Yeah.

Trevor, thanks for just speaking on behalf of the victims that have been hurt by spiritual leaders. Again, I would just echo that, too. Find a safe, mature person that can help you process that. So you're not alone, whether that's a CSAT or reaching out to our organization, but really you're worthy of getting healing and love. And then to the man or woman who is in leadership, who is struggling in this arena, you know, God's exposure isn't to destroy you. The sin will destroy you. God's exposure is to lead you to healing. And so why don't you both be proactive today? And I know you're thinking, no, there's no way. I've done two. Listen today, this very podcast could be your off ramp, an on ramp to something healthy. And you could begin to reach out to pure desire to one of our clinicians. You could begin to get help. But your health is the best gift you give to the body of Christ. Not your sermon, your health. It's the best gift you give to you, your family, your marriage. And it's what's going to have the most immediate impact, not just now, but in the long run as well, when we're off this planet someday.

Absolutely. So what should we do if we're impacted personally by the news coming out about a leader that we know or respect? And anybody who has been influenced by anyone who has come out with sexual misconduct or a moral failing feels this. Do we just dismiss everything that that person has done or said or any of the impact it's had in our life?

It's a great question, Trevor. What do you think?

I think there is a tendency to feel like, man, I just got to toss every book, toss every sermon. It was all illegitimate, it garbage. And I mean, I get that feeling. And sometimes that's just how we deal with maybe anger, because that's a very real thing to be angry at someone that let us down is normal. And so if you Feel angry. Like, I would just justify, like, yeah, but you need to work through the anger and kind of. And work through to a place of grace and forgiveness. But I look at their works. I think it's that reminder, you know, Paul writes about, says how, you know, some people say, well, I follow Apollos and I follow Peter, and I follow Paul and. And his response of, like, what are any of us? You know, one made it water, one made it grow. But he says, at the end, it's all Christ. It's all about Christ. And so when I look at leaders, I know Bill Hybels had a role to play in my development as a leader and a pastor. And I'm grateful for that, even if I don't respect the way he handled what came out about him. And I still wonder, like, he's yet to make any statements about that just so that as a person, I. I feel a lot of rawness about that. But I don't reject the things I learned because I think God used him as a voice in my life. So that would be my encouragement. Just, this is a healthy time to separate the leader from the message and that it's God who works in us, and it's the Holy Spirit that is using their words, but they're just the vessel. And so if we find out that the vessel is cracked and has problems, like, well, welcome to the club, don't we all? And if we realize that the level to which a vessel is cracked or has flaws means that vessel needs to be in a different role or taken out of leadership, okay. But their messages, I think, can still have a lot of validity as God used it. But it really takes us back to the source of the message is not the leader themselves. It's what was God doing and saying and how did it align with Scripture? So I think that's kind of the framework I use.

And I mean, I could at that. If I were to just take this question at face value, I could throw out the entire book of Psalms. I mean, David sucked. He was terrible. He did some really bad things, hurt.

A lot of people.

His family was a train wreck because of the sin that he committed. And yet his work is included in the library of Scripture. Like, God made some significant promises to David and used him as a model in so many ways in Scripture. And that doesn't mean I throw all that out. Like, you know, and I love what you're saying. It's not about David. It's how God used David's brokenness to benefit himself and other people. So I agree. I think it's hard. I mean, yeah, it's going to depend. It's just always going to depend on the impact that that person had and in the context that they did. But honestly, if you're at a place where you do want to dismiss maybe that person's impact in your life, I also think that's an okay place to be. I mean, as long as you don't close yourself off to all leadership and all, you know, ways that other people can help you moving forward in leadership, I think that that's helpful.

I mean, the truth is, I probably won't read a Ravi Zacharias book again or go back and listen to a sermon because it would be impossible for me to do it without having it through this grid, all that I learned about it. But his past impact, his past ways that he helped me understand scripture, understand an apologetic of why we believe what we believe. I mean, I can take that God used those. I may not continue to go to him as a resource. But I think we just have to thank God for their impact. Because all of us are complex. All of us have good and bad. And like you said, take the good and thank God for how it helped and for what needs to be rejected. Feel that freedom to reject it.

Yeah, I think because too, we live in the west, we idolize church leaders. Many times it's different. We're not the people of poverty, the church leaders anymore. We're the people that have a lot of resources now. We have big followings. We have large mega churches. So it's easy to idolize. And I think that speaks of the gullibility that leader Rodney, for instance, could say no, wrong. So everything he says is gospel truth and everything he does. And it really just shows that we're that immaturity about, you know, people turn off their brains and don't think and don't question, as Nick said earlier. And there's not this sense of submitting to one another. And I think that idolizing that leader, that could be a good lesson of learning. Wow. I actually put leaders in a wrong spot, you know, And I think there's some maturity that we in the church can give ourselves to about realizing that, you know, it's maybe, maybe, maybe we need our lenses adjusted a little bit to get back to that servant leader and to understanding what it means to, you know, disciple people and to authentically be in relationship with people and not just television superstar idolizing. And I'm not, I'm not saying everything on TV is negative or anybody that speaks on tv. I'm just saying, you know, I love men and women that are in authentic communities and are doing their work or the, the leader who's picked up the telephone or wrote the letter or face to face made amends. Think if these guys or gals would have made amends, individuals that they hurt.

Yeah.

Think about how powerful that would be.

Yeah.

And what that would say to the individual and the. And the gift of healing that would be be able to give that individual.

Yeah. That's one of the takeaways. If you listen to that Rise and Fall of Mars Hill podcast, the number of people impacted that you can still hear that ache in their heart of. I just, I wish they would have acknowledged. I wish Mark Driscoll could have acknowledged. That's all I was just looking for, to acknowledge that it hurt. And so, yeah, if we're one of those leaders, maybe even going back to congregations or families or friends and saying, what I did was hurtful and I'm sorry and I want to make amends.

And that takes courage, Nick. That takes courage. That's no small task, I'm telling you.

Right. But that's what leadership is.

That's courage.

And for leaders and non leaders alike. And so let's talk about that a little bit for everyone listening who's like, well, I'm not a leader. What does this have to do with what could all of us take away, what lessons or warnings could we take away from these stories that we're all aware of?

Well, God's got help for you. PureDesire.org and there are people and resources that can help you. We're one of many ministries or opportunities out there, therapists, you know that I always believe God has people and resources that can help us. And so I think one takeaway is why not today? Why not today be the day? If you're a leader, struggling, male or female, why not today be the day when you say, okay, God, I'm giving in and I'm trusting you, not because I have to, but because I finally believe it's the better way and you'll bring some people to really help me. I think the takeaway should be God's in the restoration business, whether you've been hurt by someone or you've hurt someone, God is in the business of restoring our lives and he can be a part of that. Or maybe some. That God has healed you, maybe owning your story and leveraging, you know, your story, your resources to help others find healing.

Yeah. And this is, I mean, I say this from Someone who was in pastoral ministry, you know, for 10 years and like, man, check in on your leaders. Like, they need your community. They need the questions you ask. They, you know, like I've. It's sometimes when someone just comes and sits to you, especially when you're in a leadership position, it can, it can feel like an island. It can feel so isolating at times when someone just comes and sits in your office or takes you out to coffee and is like, how you doing? Like really, how are you doing? Now that might be scary at first, but that goes a long way. I mean, I think the warnings are there. If you're not a leader, there are warnings. Like, you know, leadership doesn't automatically make you better. You know, Rodney uses this line of like, marriage just reveals more of what it finds. Leadership's the same thing. It just amplifies who you already are at a larger scale. And so I think the warnings are there to pay attention to whether you're in leadership or not. But I think that someone who's not in leadership, you do have a unique role and a unique role in diminishing shame and offering community to your leaders. And I think that whether they may respond differently or interestingly at the outset, I think it goes a long way to know that you. That a leader is cared for just as a person cared for and the struggles and ups and downs they have.

Yeah, yeah. For any way that we could communicate to a leader in our life, you're not alone and I care about you beyond your role. I think that would be important. Yeah. The lesson for me, I think I would take away is just that we all, leader and non leader, have an incredible capacity to lie to other people and maybe more tragically, to lie to ourselves, to deny the issues, to act like it's not a big deal, to tell ourselves the lies so long that we believe our own stuff. And that's just amplifies the need for other people, the need for authentic community. Because until I say it out loud in front of other people, I don't realize some of the stuff I'm believing. It's like, wow, I'm really stuck in a very unhealthy pattern of thinking there. And so I think we all need to see that. And also whether we're leaders or non leaders, that pressure or desire to hide behind a reputation that we have all in one way or another crafted about how my friends see me, how coworkers see me, how people on social media see me, how my kids or my family see me, we all have this Reputation. And to come out and acknowledge sexual brokenness feels like we're taking our reputation, just smashing it into a thousand pieces. And that dilemma of is it worth it? It's not worth losing my reputation. But I would just encourage all of us. I think that's really an artificial tension that the enemy tries to whisper to say, you'll lose everything when the truth is, if we would acknowledge our sexual brokenness. What we find over and over in people's stories and in all of our own stories is there is far, far more to be gained than to be lost. There's far more to be gained in terms of authentic relationship, true love in your marriage, honesty with your kids, influence. I mean, I tell the story a lot in my book and podcast stuff about how my influence as a leader went up exponentially when I acknowledged my addiction to pornography, which was so opposite of what I thought. I'm like, no one will ever want to listen to me again. But the way people said, man, if. If you're being real about your brokenness, somehow it makes me believe I can address my brokenness too. And I didn't do any of that for influence. But it's just how God worked through humility, through brokenness, through authenticity. So we've got to reject the lie that I need to protect this reputation because God will use our brokenness in ways we never, never imagined so good.

And don't wait till you get caught. Seek help where people can give you guidance, whether it's time to step out of leading and work on your own well being. It's so much better if you do that proactively than waiting till we hurt yourself or others more totally.

All right, guys, so as we wrap up and we're reflecting on just man, the tragedy, the pain that's taken place in stories like Ravi Zacharias story. What words of encouragement would we give, what hope would we give to our listeners today?

I would just start with, you're worthy of being loved and love yourself enough to go get help if that's you. If you identify with something here and you're worthy of being loved, if you've been hurt by someone. And then the third thing would be, how can you help your culture do something different and create a different narrative on human sexuality within your church? How can you be proactive for our kids and grandkids? And speaking of grandkids, have you guys seen my picture of Louie, my grandson? He's pretty cool. But anyway, for the future generations to help Louie and Trevor's grandson someday and Nick's 45 grandchildren. Someday we can do something by creating a healthy culture within our churches.

Yeah, yeah. I think what comes to mind for me is that we're always going to have leaders. I mean, for some people, they might feel like, man, all these stories just show we should never have people who have big ministries or big churches. I mean, if you look at the Bible, when gifted, skilled people were called by God into roles, they ended up influencing a whole lot of people. And there were really, really good ones and there were really, really bad ones. And so I think that's a reality of our world and the church, that we're going to have well known leaders. Because if someone is called by God and does it really well, even if they're just trying to do it, you know, in a small way, sooner or later it grows. You know, Francis Chan, I think, is an example of a guy that he just wanted to humbly serve a few people and now millions of people read his books. Right. So whether we intend it to or not, we're going to have these leaders. And I think the question for us is more, am I following the leader or am I following Christ through the leader? Because to me, the definition of leading is I am leading people to Christ, leading them in the kingdom of God, leading them into the way of God, leading. And if that's as we watch leaders, if that's what we remember, like, I'm not following the leader as a person, they're just another person like me. But I can follow what they're leading me into. And I think if we could keep that healthy separation in mind, we would have a better interaction with leaders to help let them be humans and let them be real. And we'd also have a better spiritual journey for ourselves because the focus would stay on Christ and not the leader. So I think brokenness and leaders just reminds us that it's not about the leader. And so let's have leaders that can address their brokenness, but also have people who are following that can address their brokenness as well. Because it's not about the performance, the reputation, it's ultimately about Christ and what we're being led to. And I just hope we can capture that focus instead.

Yeah, I think something I've said on an episode with the three of us actually ironically, is that God cares more about your health than your position. And so just really understand that, that God doesn't need you to be in a leadership position or to have this certain level of authority to care about you or to use you. He cares about who you are in your health, spiritual, sexual, emotional, all of it. That holistic health. That's the first thing. The second thing is after a conversation like this, it's easy to assume, is there really anything we can do? And I just would just encourage you that not all hope is lost. We can change. And it's going to be a slow man. The church is a large barge, okay? And if we're going to turn it, it's going to take a while. But those small little shifts over time will set a brand new trajectory for the church. And I think that we're capable of doing that. But it takes small and courageous decisions and steps to do that. And we can change this. It does not have to be this way for the rest of the existence of the church. We can change it. We just need to start making those decisions today to do it.

And the church is following the leader, so we're as healthy as the leader. Leader just means go first, right? So what if every lead pastor bought SI101 and showed it to their staff, right? Just started leading their staff well through this and then that staff could begin to lead others. Well, that can be a simple next step. If you're a leader and say, hey, this isn't my issue, but I know this is an issue. That's a great next step you can take getting that and let all your, all your staff, male and female, go through SI101 and break them up, male and female. And what a great investment you're making in future generations. So Trevor gave you the link to that and you can purchase that today.

That's right. We hope our conversation today, again, this is. We're excited to have this conversation. We enjoy having this con conversation because we care so deeply that these changes can be made. We do not want to see more and more leaders come out with sexual abuse, sexual misconduct. We really want to reach those pastors, we want to reach those communities, those churches and make a change that really is going to set up as Rodney, like the Louis of the world are going to be walking in sexual health as they enter marriage, as they enter ministry, as they enter their career. That's what we're after. So we hope that our conversation, though, may be around a really difficult, difficult topic, was encouraging and gave you hope that we can change. And Rodney, we love having these conversations with you. We appreciate the time and energy you've put into this. Thanks for being with us today.

Appreciate it, guys. Thank you for your work.

And wherever you're at on your journey, pure desire is here to help create a roadmap for your healing. If you or someone you know is impacted by sexual brokenness or betrayal trauma, go to PureDesire.org and let's start the healing journey today. Don't forget to subscribe to the podcast. Each week we put out new content to help you on the road to heal, healing and freedom. Lastly, never stop being healthy.