253 - Gaslighting, Manipulating, & Lying

You're listening to the Pure Desire Podcast, your safe place to find hope, healing and freedom from sexual addiction, betrayal and relationship issues. What's up, people? I'm your host, Trevor Windsor, and you're listening to episode 253 of the Pure Desire podcast. Here joining me as always is my co host, Nick Stumbo.

What? That's crazy. You're crazy.

I have no freaking idea.

I'm sure it wasn't accurately or well quoted, but there's a great.

You say that a lot. Can we address that real quick? I feel like you shame all of your own intro.

Well, there's probably some truth that I'm not like a ventriloquist or. No. What would the phrase be for someone that does. I'm not good at impersonationist, but I love like quoting movie lines. So there's great outtakes at the end of the Ryan Reynolds Sandra Bullock film the Proposal. And it's the character Oscar Nunez that he plays in that which he's such a weird character in the movie. So I don't really recommend his parts. But at the end, the U.S. you know, customs guy's like, are you a U.S. citizen? And he's like, what? You're crazy. That's crazy. And, you know, it's really evident he's not. But that's, you know, where it's from is the Proposal and the outtakes at the end.

So the tie in is that we had Eileen Fagan, who's one of our clinicians on staff, had her on today to talk about gaslighting, manipulating and lying.

Yeah, and that is maybe a classic example of gaslighting, that when someone accuses you of something that is true, you turn the mirror and say, no, it's. You're crazy for thinking that and try to make it about them. And yeah, we just recognize, unfortunately, this can be a very unhealthy pattern, that if we're the struggler or the addict, we may have fallen into as ways of trying to protect ourselves, ways to protect our secrets and maybe even lying to ourselves that we're protecting them but not seeing how damaging it is long term to the foundation of a marriage and a relationship. And so I think it's such a fantastic conversation because if we're on the struggling side, we need to ask ourselves very honestly, do I do this? And are there patterns that I really need to be intent on changing? And if we're the struggling, I mean, the betrayed spouse, there really needs to be voices like Eileen Fagan today who comes alongside and says, you're not crazy. Trust your gut. You're not alone. Find community that can support you. Because maybe the lines you've been hearing aren't accurate. And we need help to learn to live in truth. And I hope that's the outcome of this episode, that both sides of a relationship, or whether you're the struggler or the betrayed, really feel that conviction of. I want to build relationships on the foundation of truth and trust. And that means exposing these issues that we talk about today.

And Eileen is great. We really love our time. She even used some new words I've never heard before today. So plenty of those, which is great.

Get out your thesaurus folks. Or your dictionary.

Thesaurus or thesaurus. I'm sorry, we need to take a second here.

I don't care.

Okay. Okay.

It's a long word. By the end, I kind of lose focus.

And we're back. So we've got a great episode for you. Real quick. Today's episode, sponsored by Covenant Eyes and their restored vows free 14 day video course. In this course, Brandon and Tonya Clark talk through the dark period where pornography was impacting their marriage and how they found healing and hope. If you're interested in checking out this free course, you can text the word vows to 66866. That's V O W S to 6 6. And find the power in Restored Vows. If you're not a subscriber to the podcast, do it. Don't wait any longer. We're on all the major platforms. Share it with your friends. Give us a review. It helps other people find the podcast. You can follow us on Facebook, Twitter and Instagram earedesirepdmi. And if you'd like to consume video content, the full episodes are up on YouTube. Just search Pure Desire Ministries and then. Look, Nick, it's coming. We're all in for this. The Pure Desire Summit.

We are all in. It's very good. I like the way you worked in the theme there. We are super excited about our annual gathering point. For anyone that is a group member, fans, friends, family that just pure desire has become a part of your experience in your world. We encourage come together, be lifted up, be supported, make connections with our staff and others that are on this journey. We just think it's going to be a real highlight of your year and if you can join us in person, you know even better. Come out and hang out with us for a couple days in the state of Oregon. But even if you're joining online, I think it's just one of those impactful experiences that helps us take the next step in our journey. And Mike, clarify for you, the listener, what it would look like for you to be all in in the next season of your healing journey.

Yep.

And this has Jay Stringer and Dr. Julie Slattery as our main featured speakers for the event. It's September 16 and 17 in Troutdale, Oregon. Just go to PureDesire.orgSummit22 and you can register either for in person. You can register online. And I'm just gonna throw it in here real quick. We also are offering site host locations for the summit this year, so more to come on that. But again, to register, go to PureDesire.org summit22. All right, here's our conversation with Eileen Fagan on gaslighting, manipulating and lying. Eileen Fagan, welcome back to the Pure Desire podcast. Thanks for being here.

Thanks. Great to be back.

We honestly, we love you and we loved our last episode with you and we're sorry, genuinely, that we haven't had you on sooner.

Are you sure? Is that the truth? Mm.

I feel like you're getting into our topic a little bit, but. So you are a clinician on staff, you and your husband and you. This conversation is one that we hear a lot recently on some women's episodes that we had, the Women's Takeover. They talked about gaslighting a little bit with Barbara Steffens. And so we've addressed this a little bit, but we wanted to look at it because we see that gaslighting, manipulating and lying are things that are absolutely present and tend to be, I mean, constantly present, at least during an addiction and throughout the discovery process and everything. And so wanted to have you with your expertise of walking people through the situation on. But then I know a little bit of your story, too, that you have some expertise here. I mean, even offline, you said you're an expert at gaslighting. So we're excited about what that means.

So I hope I didn't oversell myself.

Well, we'll only know by the end of the episode. But first and foremost, what is gaslighting? And I think a lot of people know what lying and manipulating is. So what's the difference between gaslighting and those other two?

Well, so not all people that lie are gaslighters, but all gaslighters lie. So the actual term is interesting. It came from a movie from the 40s, and I know Ingrid Bergman was in it and I don't remember the male actor, but the movie was called Gaslights. And what her husband would is trying to convince her she was crazy so he would make these lights, gas lights, flicker on and off. And she'd say, why are those lights flickering? And he'd say, what are you talking about? They're not flickering? And he'd do that over and over again with certain things because he was trying to make her think she was crazy. And so I'm not going to spoil the movie. I will say it's a trigger alert if you've been gaslit, so don't watch it. But perfect. But the movie was really interesting. So gaslighting is, in its widest sense, it's a form of emotional abuse. It's lying, it's control. It's for hiding. People that are gaslighters are trying to hide their behavior. So that's a lot of people. A lot of people think that it has to do with, if you're a gaslighter, you're a narcissist. And that's not necessarily true. Again, this isn't all gaslighters are narcissists, but all narcissists gaslight. So, yeah, it's bigger than just lying and manipulating. That's a subset of gaslighting.

Yeah. And I think it leads to. What we're trying to address in this podcast is how when someone is stuck in a addictive pattern, they're stuck in a cycle of shame. There are some, whether intentional or not, there are some very significant ways in which we try to deflect that shame. We try to deflect blame, try to hide, try to control, to maybe either to protect ourselves, to protect the secret. And I think our hope as we talk through this is that for those that have been caught up in the struggle, whether they're male or female, if they've been caught up in any addictive behavior, to be able to have kind of a look in the mirror moment, to say, in an effort to protect myself or protect my secrets, have I been doing this and be able to see the impact that has on other people? And on the flip side, for those spouses that maybe have been in the midst of it, this maybe has been their normal for years, if not decades. And it might even be that realization of, oh, this is not a normal, healthy way to relate to people. And I need to unlearn some patterns that I've become stuck in. And so we just want to kind of have that honest conversation. And I know, Eileen, one of the things that you and your husband get to hear is people in a lot of different stages of their recovery. And so I anticipate that you've probably been with couples that maybe are still stuck in some gaslighting or where one of the spouses has been recently trying to use that. So give for our listeners that are trying to kind of understand this more fully, give some maybe specific examples within sexual addiction. How might someone who's struggling with sexual addiction be gaslighting their spouse? What kind of things would they say? What kind of maybe even phrases do they use? What are common things that people will gaslight about within sexual addiction?

Yeah, so the first one that comes to mind, and actually this is the least harmful, although it's very harmful, is lying, either by omission or commission. So omission being you're not. You're withholding some parts of the truth. Dear I looked at porn this week, but I only looked at it once, whereas they may have looked at it three or four times. So that would be omission or just saying you didn't. So one of the things that struggling spouse might say is when confronted about that, I have this funny feeling. Did you look at pornography? No, I didn't look at porn. I don't know why you have that feeling. That's one way. Another way is that kind of crazy making reality manipulation. I saw a text from your female co worker and it seemed pretty intimate. What was that about? There was no text. Just absolutely telling them that what they saw wasn't what they saw. And then they may go in and delete it. Scapegoating is another way where they actually go into blaming the partner. So there's two main types of gaslighting. One is scapegoating, one is blaming the partner, and then one is lying. So I wouldn't look at porn if you would just lose £20. Great way to get your partner well, great way to get the weight.

And honestly, it's a lot easier to point the finger. In that case, it's a lot easier to say, well, if you would just do this. And honestly, if we know anything about addicts, we know that they're just trying to escape the pain that they're feeling in their life. That's not to justify the behavior. We need to be very, very clear. If you're listening to this episode and maybe it's your first time listening to our podcast, we can understand the reason why someone is an addict, but that doesn't necessarily justify it. And the reason that people go to pornography or any sexual brokenness is to numb out from the pain that they feel. And another way to do that is also pointing the finger at someone else. If only this person or if only my spouse would, or because you do this, I do this. It's a form of protecting yourself.

Right. It's pain avoidance. And people that gaslight are usually very insecure. And what we know that Michael Dye tells us in Genesis Process is that insecurity always manifests itself as control. Fear manifests as control. So people that are are gaslighting or lying or manipulating, they are fearful. They're probably laced in shame and guilt and they're just trying to desperately avoid pain.

Yeah, I think as we go through this episode, we're trying to explain and understand these behaviors, but that doesn't mean we're trying to excuse or normalize like, oh, that's no big deal because as you've already mentioned, Ellie, they're deeply painful. And it really can cause that spouse who's been betrayed to have a lot of self doubt themselves. It's like the insecure struggler passes on that insecurity in a very unfair, unhealthy even, I think in forms an abusive way. And the way I've heard it come out as couples share their story or as a spouse is coming towards health and they tell about how they were treated. They'd say things like, he would tell me I was crazy for suspecting him of having an affair and then it came out that he was having an affair. Or he would say, oh, it's because of your abusive past that you don't trust me. And then I found out there were all these reasons I shouldn't have been trusting him. Or it's, you're putting your daddy issues on me. And yet all those things were true. And so it's really a way that tries to turn the mirror. And like you were saying, Trevor, the addict is just trying to deflect that emotion and that pain of like, well, boy, I'm feeling put on the spot. So if I can turn the mirror, I'm going to make you feel put on the spot that this is not a me issue. This is actually a you issue. And the fact that you're questioning me, think I have a problem, you're doubting me. That's all about you, not me. And it's, I think so painful when the betrayed spouse unmasks like, oh, all along I was right. Because as justifying as that might feel, oh, I was right. It actually then makes them question everything they've ever heard in the relationship because it's like, well, what was ever true?

Exactly?

Because the things I was right about. What else? You know, what else was I right? About feeling.

Yep. Yeah, you're exactly right. They start connecting the dots between all of the things that their partner said and then finding out what was actually true. And then the next logical consequence that sometimes they come to is, my whole relationship must have been a lie. And then they get what Michelle Mays from the center of Healthy Sex calls the creepy factor, where they say, I don't even know this person. This person's a stranger to me. And then it feels safer just to think your partner is all bad, because all bad feels more safe than to think, well, they're. They're a good person that did. It's really hard to have grace, at least at first.

I think that's really good for you to bring up, Eileen. To recognize that we're complex people, and someone can, you know, in their addiction, have struggled a lot with manipulation, lying, even gaslighting, but that didn't define their entire personality. And so we are trying to address those things that need to be addressed without kind of assuming, well, you're just an evil person, and that's why you did these things. Because I think, again, if we look at not excusing the behavior, but if we look at it to say, they were so afraid of being exposed, this was their method to try to protect themselves, then we can understand why they would do something that seems so evil and controlling and maybe have the opportunity to work on it together as a couple in those relationships where the marriage can be saved and redeemed from what happened.

And honestly, we're getting into the next question a little bit, too. So let's just push into it. Why do addicts do this? Do they gaslight? And then also, let's add, why do they manipulate? Why do they lie?

Yeah. Yeah. A lot of addicts were gaslit as children. So we have to go back and hear stories. When you hear stories, you can understand more about why people did what they did. A lot of times, it was a safety issue. If their parents were gaslighting or lying or manipulating, they had any childhood trauma, it's going to feel better to cover up. So that's. Usually children of gaslighters either become gaslighters or they swing the other way and they become codependent and parentified. So really, we do have to hear people's stories. When you hear people's stories, you're more able to understand where they came from. Because gaslighters aren't just born gaslighters, and people that lie aren't just born liars.

My therapist and I have had this conversation that growing up in a certain culture in my home, there's some things I wanted to change. I wanted to be different. And as we got into the conversation, I basically stumbled on the truth that I thought that the culture I grew up in perfectly equipped me to create a different culture in my home. Which, you know, sounds silly when you say it out loud, because the reality is that the culture in my home perfectly equipped me to recreate that exact same culture in my home now. And it's the same thing that you're talking about with gaslighting, that it's like a baseline of normal that they've experienced. And so, again, this is not a way to justify the behavior or try to put the fault on someone else for someone's addictive behavior. But this helps us, as you're saying, understand their story and understand where they're coming from. And as we know, that also gives us the information to how to help that person break that addictive cycle and break that cycle of gaslighting, manipulating or lying.

Right. What you're describing is cognitive or traumatic repetition. So where our brains are trying to make sense of what happened in the then and there, and they bring it into the here and now so that they can somehow heal from it, make sense of it.

Well, I think we have to keep in mind too, how maybe, particularly in addiction, when someone's struggling with pornography or acting out in sexual ways, there is a level of rationalizing, minimizing and denying their behavior. There are messages they're telling themselves. And so I remember in my struggle, and I'm thankful that gaslighting, at least as far as I would think of it, and my wife could testify to this, Gaslighting wasn't my issue, but certainly plenty of manipulating and plenty of lying. And what was often driving it was it's actually better for her not to know I'm protecting her from the pain of what I'm doing because, by the way, I'm working on it. I'm trying to change, and I'm repentant, and I've got guys I talk to and I've got accountability. So it's going to change. It's going to be better. So she doesn't need to know and would tell myself those lies, which then would just perpetuate the lies to her. Because it was almost in a really twisted, unfortunate way, a way of being, like, noble, like, I'm protecting you by not hurting you with these things. And so the manipulation and lying became again, rationalized, minim and minimized, like, well, I'm doing it for your own good without ever getting their permission to do that. So it's just, it's sad the way we can totally listen to those internalized that just enable us then to perpetuate the lies we speak out loud.

Well, and that's the thing is the layer underneath that is I'm protecting, I'm doing the noble thing by protecting my spouse, but in reality that's actually protecting me from having to deal with the fallout of that, of that situation. And I think that something I've experienced is when I judge people or blame or project on other people, it's usually because I have some form of self hatred in myself that when I see someone else being insecure or playing like police officer or something like that, it's much easier for me to just cast the blame and point the finger there than to deal with the things I don't like or hate about myself. We know this to be true about addicts. It's not like they get up every day and they're like, man, I'm really excited that I have unwanted sexual behavior in my life constantly. Like we, at least the people we work with, that's not where they're coming from. And so again, it's this protection, it's projecting to protect in a lot of ways, myself onto someone else.

Right? They're coming from a place where how can I survive the guilt and shame?

Right?

They're trying to figure out how they can do that. What they don't realize is like what you said Trevor, what it's doing to their spouse, when they were dating, when they were getting to know each other, their brain, it's a process called neuroception where their brain interprets them as a safe person. Then when there's been a betrayal, a lie and manipulation, all of a sudden there's a change. That person just went from safe to dangerous. And all of the neural structures that, that identified that person is safe. Now they're not safe or are they safe? And that's where the crazy making comes in. It really causes a physiological change in the spouse. And I think that if, if addicts knew that, they wouldn't be doing that.

In the first and another aspect to this or another maybe step is that an addict might be doing this to save the marriage. Like if they only knew what really was going on, then my family would blow up. And they play out worst case scenario even though, you know, in secret they're creating worst case scenario by making it even worse. But I think a lot of people get into that where they're protecting their image or their relationship or their reputation. And again, it's something where it's a noble cause to want to save your marriage, but when you do it backwards like this, it's not noble.

Right? And think of the addict as a child, especially if they were told by family members, if they were the secret keeper for family secrets, like, mom comes up to him and says, I'm having an affair. Don't tell your father where you're forced to keep those kind of family secrets. And it's incredibly traumatizing. But you learn that that's what I have to do to stay safe. So it reinforces that behavior.

So, Eileen, if a spouse goes to their struggler, the struggling spouse, and asks, are you manipulating me? Are you lying? Are you gaslighting? Well, they're probably going to get lying, manipulation, or gaslighting. So how would a spouse maybe know? What kind of things could they pick up on? What can they be looking for? And we don't want to just put fear into every marriage, be looking for this constantly. But for some people, like we mentioned at the beginning, if they've lived within some of these structures for years or decades, it might be hard to see. So what would you say to someone? How could they know if their spouse is gaslighting, manipulating and lying?

You know, a lot of this will come to getting outside help. Because when you've been gaslit, lied to, manipulated for long enough, that innate sense of trust in your own gut and that still small voice in the Holy Spirit, you learn that maybe I can't trust that. So there's gotta be this process of reconnecting to and trusting your gut, that when you have that sense that something's up. I can't think of hardly any time where a betrayed spouse has had that gut feeling and has been wrong. We can trust our intuition and trust your gut. Unless there's been gross trauma on the side of the betrayed spouse. But part of it is getting outside help. We need our communities, we need our groups, maybe an outside therapist to help us reconnect with ourselves and figure out a way to trust ourselves. Because that's what it starts with. We have to rebuild trust with ourselves before we can rebuild it with our partner. That's the first step. And learn to hold on to your reality. Even if what they say is, no, that didn't happen. No, you didn't see that. You have to really work hard to hold onto your own reality and what you saw and allow them to have theirs. You don't have to argue you don't have to prove that you're right. Just hang on to it and wait.

Yeah, I think about how we've talked about integrity on the podcast, that it's being the same on the inside and the outside, that what you see and what I say is consistent with who I am and what the truth is. And I think of how many people that are in recovery in groups that I've heard them say, my wife knows all my passwords. My wife has my computer. Anytime she can check my phone because there's integrity. It's like, if you need to check, if that will help you feel better, please check. Because I have. I have nothing to hide. And if I need to tell you something, I'm committed to telling you. And so we encourage a spouse not to fall into that role of being the constant police officer. But I think that's something to look for, is if there is a real resistance of, no, you can't look at that. No, I don't want you to see this. Anytime you're near their phone, they're grabbing it and putting it. That's not a guarantee that something's up. But I just think it shows there may be integrity issues there. Because what I've seen on the healthy side this people of integrity, go look at it, Check, see whatever you need to see. Like, I'm an open book because I don't want to live with secrets. And if. If you're in a relationship with someone that is a closed book, there's either probably significant trauma that they don't want to address, or there's secrets that they're not willing to tell. And that's something that either way, you're probably going to need some outside help addressing. And if they're not willing to, you're going to need to start getting health yourself, because that's a difficult situation to live in.

Something that you said that's interesting, I can see a scenario where even that could be used as gaslighting. Like, look, here it is. I'm putting it on the table. Like, go ahead. You know, it's here. Like, I could totally see that. And I really do think I've heard those stories before. And so if it feels disingenuous, and I love that trusting your gut, and that's something that's a theme even in my life. I've been hearing more often over the last year that we need to get to that point. We're trusting our gut a little bit more. But that's my favorite part about our groups, is that our Betrayal groups give voice to it. You learn to own your voice in your relationship and own your reality. And that's what's so great. And that's what you're talking about with those outside resources and voices. But just be aware that even if your spouse is doing, they're like, well, go ahead, look. But if it feels like it's aggressive and it feels like it's hostile, like, well, you know, you can trust your gut there too. Maybe that is like, okay, this person's maybe not in a healthy spot.

Right? That's exactly it. Yeah. Yeah. And we can bounce things off of people in our group. Am I thinking this? Does this sound right? And like you said, it's the heart behind it. If it's coming off as aggressive, defensive. Defensive is one of those relationship killers. So if your spouse is defensive and going, and throws their phone at you and goes, here, check it, I don't care. There's nothing warmer or trusting about. So even just that is going to be a red flag.

So what are ways that the betrayed spouse, betrayed partner can address these unhealthy patterns in their relationship? Because I could see in a lot of ways they're sort of powerless. Like, they can't stop their spouse from gaslighting, manipulating, or lying. And so how do they start to maybe regulate themselves? What are things they can do to help themselves? And is there anything they can do to help the relationship?

Well, they have to identify, first of all, their role in this gaslighting dance that's been going on. The dance might look like I tell my partner something that I saw or heard. They tell me I didn't see what I saw. Then I argue and try to convince, and then I doubt myself. The betrayed partner has to step out of the dance. They have to change something about that interaction, that same pattern of behavior. Instead of trying to convince them, just understand they lied to protect their secret behavior. Trust what you saw. Date reality. You can ask clarifying questions if you need to, but maintain that trust is what you actually know, what you saw, what you heard. Agree to disagree. Hold onto your reality. We call that standing your sacred ground. You don't have to puff up and get big and angry. You don't have to shrink back, but you just stand your ground and then implement boundaries while you take that wait and see approach and while you're getting help.

Yeah, I think about how often we've said, you know, and we're working through addiction for that spouse. Don't trust their words, don't trust their intent, trust their actions. Because those can be seen and verified. And so if you're in a situation where you really don't know what's going on, what you can see is like, honey, I notice every time I come in the room, you hide your screen from me. You turn your phone and put it in your pocket. And I don't. You know, you've told me you're not looking at anything, but I want you to know this makes me feel this way. And that's the only action I can see. And so when you're doing that and I feel a lack of trust, I need you to know there's going to be a distance in our relationship because I have worries and fears. And so I think just looking at these are the actions I see. And being honest about how it makes you feel, how it impacts the relationship can start to communicate to that spouse. Because if it is, if they're sincerely not doing something they shouldn't be, they can realize, like, oh, I'm continuing in a pattern of things that triggers my spouse. So I want to be aware of that. And if it is behaviors they're hiding, it kind of starts to call them out and say, I'm not fooling anybody. I better deal with this. Because my spouse sees it. And even though she doesn't know the truth of what's going on, she knows enough that she's creating these boundaries in our relationship. And it's uncomfortable for me. And I think in a positive, not positive way, but in an appropriate way, can move that struggling spouse towards. I've got to either face these things or admit that I'm not willing to, which, I mean, sadly, that happens in marriages, and those marriages won't last because the struggle just gives up and walks away. And we don't want that for anybody. But we do want marriages built on trust and on openness. And I think this is a way that can happen.

Yeah. And I think I've seen it play out in a lot of different situations, but it applies to the situation as well. If you don't respect your boundaries, other people aren't going to. Like, if you're always rolling over and being like, okay, fine, I'm sorry. And you just, like, you're always crossing that line. Well, why would anyone respect a boundary that you're not actually putting in place? Like, I think that that's such a hard thing. And I think that's such a hard thing. In the church, we're taught to be loving and to be open and to always look for the benefit of someone else. And Inadvertently, what gets taught is that self care is selfish and boundaries aren't okay and you need to stop being closed off. That makes, you know, a sinner and you're doing something wrong. Like you need to respect your boundaries. And that is gonna feel for the addict spouse is gonna feel like really, really painful. And for you is gonna feel really, really healthy. They are both of those things. And so I just. Man, Stan, I like that sacred space. Hold your sacred space and know that your boundaries are for your benefit and it's okay to implement them.

Right. And it's biblical, it's godly. Jesus had boundaries. He didn't let people come to him 24 7. He went to. He went to solitary places and prayed and got alone with his father. God has boundaries and he doesn't violate our boundaries. If we decide, oh, I'm not going to read and pray for the next week, he doesn't create a situation where we're going to go read and pray. He grabbed the joy, it's going to hurt us. Yeah, right, right, right. So in the same way, we have to have those boundaries, we have to have things that make us feel safe. And what do we need? And this is where it helps to be in a group or in counseling, is to ask yourself maybe a question you've never asked yourself before, is what do you need to feel safe? Yeah.

So let's say we are the other side of the equation, that we're an addicted or struggling spouse that's working towards recovery. But we can acknowledge we've been stuck in some of these patterns of how we lie and manipulate and even gaslight to try to maintain control or protect secrets. Some of those habits die hard and change slowly. And so if that's us, how can we recognize ways we've been doing this and how can we go about changing those patterns?

Yeah. And this is where changing on your own is going to have limited success because we don't see our own blind spots. So we really do need to be with other people. You know, the Bible talks about, don't forsake the assembling of ourselves together. We have to be with other people and we need relationships. So when, when. And usually that's when the pain is turned up. So when the pain is turned up and the spouse, let's say the, the betrayed spouse, starts putting down some pretty heavy boundaries. I can't stay with you in the same house. If you're going to continue to do this, then the addict will experience pain and then they might start to really look at that but at the risk of sounding like a broken record, groups, counseling. You have to be able to help, have other people help you see your blind spots. And going back is the best way. We always tell people that you have to go back to move forward. So we have to look at where did this start and go forward from there.

I feel like a practical way is as you're having. Maybe you're in this situation where this has been a pattern for you, and you start to see it, and it's like, oh, I wonder if when I did this the other day, it was gaslighting. You know, what a great person who would know if you were or not would be your spouse. Like, just going to them and being like, when I responded this way, was that gaslighting? Did that feel like that's what I was doing? Or did that feel manipulative? Or did it feel like I wasn't telling the truth? Like, exploring that and being curious about how that plays out, I feel like it'd go a long way. And what you're doing in that. The reason why that makes sense to me as far as a practice is you're starting to familiarize yourself with the patterns that you have. But then you're also giving your spouse permission to acknowledge that reality. And then also you're opening the door for conversation. Cause it's like, I mean, it'd be really cool if both spouses could handle this perfectly every time. Or one spouse goes, like, you're gaslighting me. And then the other spouse goes, you know what? You're right. I'm really sorry. Here's what's going on. You know, in my world right now, that's very rarely gonna happen, especially at the front end of recovery. But that's where we want to get to, where we can be honest and have that open dialogue. And so asking questions can create that type of space in a relationship.

And this is why Pillar, one of seven pillars, is facing reality at all costs. We've got to have that commitment in our hearts that just says, it might be painful, it might cause a lot of turmoil, but I have got to learn to live in truth and be truthful about who I am and what I've done. And that doesn't mean with all people, everywhere, all the time, but with the right people and in the right ways. Learning to speak the truth on all occasions is so vital. Why when you move on the faster scale, the F is having secrets or lying, you're immediately forgetting priorities. You're not trusting God anymore. You're not Living life on God's terms, you're starting to move into control. And I think if we've had that pattern, it's really important not to just get fixated on the big ones of, hey, it's great. I'm not lying about looking at porn anymore or going to clubs or massage parlors. I'm not lying about that anymore because those might be the obvious outworkings of it. But it's going all the way down to, am I feeling the need to fudge how much I drank last night or how much money I spent at the restaurant or how much junk food I bought and then ate some on the way home? Am I feeling the need to shade the truth about how long I was at work and why? Because I don't want to acknowledge I was wasting time. I mean, I think for us in addiction, there are a thousand little areas. And I say this out of the experience of I was so wrapped up in needing to protect my image that I was fudging the truth to keep that image better in so many ways that, yeah, I wasn't lying about pornography anymore, but I needed to realize, like, I'm going to be late to this meeting because I didn't get up in time. And to just say that versus like, oh, it's been crazy at home, or, you know, just constantly saying little manipulative things to deflect real responsibility from the choices I was making. So that would just be my encouragement. If this is you. If you've been in the patterns of manipulating, lying, or gaslighting, don't just look at those big obvious areas that you're like, okay, I gotta change those. Because, yeah, we all know those need to change.

Yeah.

But go all the way down just to your day in and day out stuff and say, I'm not gonna fudge the truth about even the smallest things in my life. Because that's part of being a person of integrity, is what I say is true. And it's true right down to how much I spent. And being honest, I spent this much. And no, I probably did not need three candy bars, but I felt like it and I bought them. And, you know, as a spouse, here's the other side of it. When they see you doing that, like, oh, you know, usually he won't even tell me what that money was for. He's being honest. And they might not even care. They're like, you needed candy bars, fine. But the fact they're seeing you're being truthful in little things starts to build the confidence that you're also being truthful in big things. So don't underestimate the power of those small, day in and day out kind of truthful choices that you can make.

Right. What you're talking about is momentum. And that's very hopeful for a spouse. If they start to see those incremental changes in improvements in honesty and decreases in lying, then that's great, that's a step forward. You can have hope in a relationship like that when it becomes dangerous. And this is what spouses have to figure out with help is, am I really married to a gaslighter? That's so extreme that they are borderline or narcissistic by like narcissistic personality disorder. If they really have that, they're going to be very, what we call ego syntonic, that it's never my fault, it's all of you out there and it's not me. And if you have a consistent pattern of that, that's a dangerous person. So while we want to give our spouse grace and we want to have that kind of momentum and start to build trust, if you're not seeing any of that, then you really need to seek wise counsel. Because true gaslighters that are rooted in narcissism, they have a different neuronal firing pattern in their brain. Punishment and reward have no effect on them. So even with good boundaries and a really good recovery action plan, that's not going to affect them. So you really want to make sure. I don't believe that all struggling spouses are true gaslighters and narcissists, but we really do need to, I feel like in this podcast, call that out and make sure that the betrayed spouse isn't in a dangerous situation. And at Pure Desire, we actually screen for that in our one of our assessment tools called the iPass, the inventory for Partner Attachment, Stress and Trauma. So we screen for gaslighting, the blame, gaslighting, denial, and then we look for what risk they are in what risk category for psychological or emotional abuse.

And if you wonder if you're in that category, that's why, again, seek out professional help.

That's right.

Teams like Pure Desire are here to help. And others that this really isn't something, particularly as you're getting into maybe more extreme forms that you want to be trying to navigate alone. So, Eileen, let's say again that we are the spouse who struggled with this. We're maybe walking into recovery, starting to learn how to face reality and live in truth. And it can almost feel like learning a new language, like, wow, this Is a really different way to live. And as our eyes are being open to that of how much pain we've caused, how much distrust is in the relationship because of our. Our words to manipulate and lie and gaslight. Is there anything that that struggling spouse in recovery can do to help their spouse heal from the emotional pain that they've caused through this? Or is it something they just have to let their spouse do on their own?

No, they can absolutely. You know, part of it is risk. They have to risk being vulnerable, risk telling the truth, even to their own pain. We talk about empathy. A true gaslighter has what we call cognitive empathy, where they know what the right thing is to do. So they say the right thing, but they don't actually feel it. I worked with a person that had another one of those cluster B type personality disorders like narcissism, and this person was in my office and said, well, I can turn on the waterworks whenever I need to. They said, see? Watch. And all of a sudden they were squirting out real tears and they look like they're having a breakdown in my office. And then, boom, they were out of it.

Holy cow.

So empathy. Learning empathy is going to be a really important thing. It's not impossible, but really. And this is where groups come in again because that positive social pressure will help them to learn empathy. Counseling will help them to learn empathy. So being really good at listening, really listen to your spouse, try to get into their shoes and see if you can understand and feel what they might be feeling. What if it was you? So those are. The best way you can. Is to help your spouse heal, is to listen, to take ownership and ask what they can do.

Yeah, I think we've kind of already touched on it. I think allowing the tools and the healing that you're experiencing, whether it's through counseling or groups, to let those things spill over onto all the other areas of life. I think sometimes we're just so narrowly focused on I just need to stop this behavior and pure desire. We're not just helping you stop a behavior. We're trying to help you change the way you do life. We say that so often. And so it's that idea. And I love what you were talking about, the integrity piece. It's the small things like taking those tools and applying it to, like. Usually I take off about 15 minutes early from work. Nick, this is not what I'm saying. I don't actually take off 15 minutes. I'm being honest.

We'll have a conversation later.

Crap. Anyways, I Think that things like that were that small, where you start to look at it and ask questions like, is that actually a healthy habit for me? Is that something that's actually contributing to my health? And understanding that even those small things are creating what you called, Eileen, as momentum. We're creating momentum in our life, which is going to create momentum in our relationship, especially as the betrayed spouse is also getting healthy. Because we know that. We know that if one spouse is getting healthy but the other isn't recovering, there's gonna be still this staggered element to their relationship. And I think one other thing is to not pressure or push that spouse to heal, because you don't get to do that, like, as much as we want to. And, you know, it's funny as something you said earlier, Eileen, the insecurity and fear, those are what manifest as control. I'm insecure or fearful about where this is going. They're not catching up. So therefore, I try to control my spouse's healing. And I think that actually does more damage in the end. And so allowing them to be on their journey while also just focusing on my own to try to heal and let all that stuff spill over to all areas of life.

Well, I know we've said it in a lot of podcasts, but maybe the best thing you can do to help your spouse heal is to keep pursuing your healing 100%. And so if you've been the manipulator, the gaslighter, the liar, pursue being a truth teller with everything in your being, and your spouse is going to see it. I mean, like, you can't. If you're truly 100% committed to change and growing and humility and repentance. Like, you can't hide that that's happening. And that will not a guarantee, but your spouse will see and go, wow, something's happening here. And I'm not living with the liar that I used to. I'm not stuck in that same pattern and how encouraging that can be. And I just wanted to speak to also Eileen, that value of empathy. Because in our story, for my wife and I, that was the game changer. How I had really spent 10 years in our marriage when I would confess, hey, I'm still struggling with pornography. I'm so sorry, you know, but then I'd add, you know, it's not about you. It's not your fault. It's this thing I've struggled with since I was a teenager. It's getting better. And those were all ways to try to tell her she shouldn't be angry. She shouldn't feel pain because it wasn't about her. And I would tell myself that, like, she just doesn't get it. That was the phrase. She just doesn't get it. And our healing came when I think really, this was the Lord's work in my life of in one season, he just shined a light on it. And I felt conviction of, I'm the one who doesn't get it. And finally saw that I was crushing my wife's spirit. I was causing her tremendous pain. And whether I thought she should feel that or not didn't matter that I suddenly felt some empathy of taking on her pain. And, like, I'm the cause of this. And if there was anything else in my life that I was causing her pain, like, if she said, you know, the way you snore at night is ruining my life, I'd have gone to a doctor and tried to get help with it. If she'd have said, these choices are destroying, I'd have gone and got help. But in this area, she was saying exactly the same thing. This is destroying me. And I'm like, oh, you just don't understand. And so that empathy piece of taking it on and going, oh, wow, I don't understand, and I need to feel your pain so that I feel convicted. To live in truthfulness and not cause that pain anymore was. Was really a game changer for us.

Yeah. And the opposite goes to, you know, as. As a betrayed spouse, when I could be there for my husband, for Bill, and have empathy for what he was. It could have been a statement. Like, it must have been really difficult to feel like you had to hide as a child growing up. It makes sense to me that trust doesn't come easy for you. That would just wreck all his walls. Because all of a sudden, I'm taking away the position as the victim of the person that's lying, and I am sitting with him and understanding his pain. Now, that's tough. And there has to be a lot of group and a lot of support to be able to say something like that, to be able to put your own hurt aside temporarily, to be there for the person you love. But it's incredibly helpful and incredibly effective.

So, I mean, I can see that being one response to this last question, but what are some other things that couples can do together to establish trust when gaslighting, manipulating, lying has been present and this pattern has been so there in the room with them?

Yeah. You know, the first thing I think of is we have to hear our stories and we have to get the relationship story. Because when did the wounds begin? Because what we're trying to do is not just stop the behaviors, but we're trying to dig up the root of the wound. So we're really looking for a wound, not just to stop the behaviors. So when did it begin? Did it begin in family of origin? Did it begin when we were dating? Where was the fracture in relationship? Was the fracture in childhood? Was it in teen years? Was it in dating? So we want to really look for those relationship fractures. Excuse me. Full disclosure process is an absolute must. So as difficult as that process is, it's really important and the sooner the better. So whether you do that through your groups, whether you do what we have at Pure desire called a six session disclosure process, or you go through the whole 12 month counseling program, but getting that done is really important and all parts of it. So you've got the partner talking about their history, their story, their sexual history, and then the betrayed spouse writing their emotional impact letter. Your behaviors and deceptive choices have impacted me in the following areas. All of those areas, emotional, physical, in my parenting, all those roles. And then the struggling spouse in turn writes a letter of emotional restitution. How are they going to make things right? What are they going to start taking responsibility for? Having that process and having it behind you, where all the cards are out on the table is really powerful. And then learning and practicing empathy, agape love, shame reduction, boundaries, all of those things come into play and that'll help both of them heal.

I think a tool that a couple can use together is that three circles tool, that relapse prevention plan, and really that middle circle of guardrails, of defining. Because the way we were taught it from Ted and Diane Roberts was me asking of my wife the question, what makes you feel safe in our relationship and what are things I do that make you feel unsafe? And so anywhere there had been patterns for me of lying, hiding, manipulating the truth. She was obviously more aware of that than I was because she'd been the one that had to feel it. And so there were areas she wanted to say. When I know that you're on your computer just playing online sports, I don't feel safe because I know how many times that's been part of your pattern. And to me, I didn't see it as that big of a deal. But it's like, oh, if this is something I've used and it makes you feel unsafe, I'll add that to my guardrails. And I think that's something a couple can do. To heal together is that spouse who's been the recipient of the manipulation and the lying sees guardrails that you have set in place to say, I want you to see that I'm living differently. I'm making different choices, and these are actions you can see. And so I'm going to implement these guardrails for the good of our relationship. And then, particularly in that first year or two of recovery, we would meet and talk through my three circles. Here's how I'm doing. You know, haven't crossed any of the relapse circle the guardrails. Here's ones I've done well. And if there was an area where I'd bumped into a guardrail, that was a much. I wouldn't say a fun conversation, but a much easier conversation to talk about. Hey, I. I forgot a guardrail. I did this, and here's how I'm making adjustments. And we could have that very open, honest conversation. And she could see progress there. And so I think I would encourage that of couples. This is a way you can kind of together, be able to say, because of my past patterns, where are you struggling to feel like you can trust me, like you know what I'm doing, and how could I implement some guardrails so that you really feel and can see that change is happening? And then when you can talk about those regularly, it just like you were saying, Eileen, it creates that momentum of, oh, there's change happening, we're moving in the right direction. And it gets you talking about the little changes that need to be made, hopefully long before you ever have to talk about a big relapse that is happening in. Because you're being honest much, much earlier in the process.

You know, something that, you know, we talked about image management a lot. And so I'm talking specifically to someone who maybe who's on the struggling side, who has been a gaslight, manipulating, lying, all that is. I'm in a season right now where I'm learning to imperfectly communicate where I'm at. I like to, like, prepackage, you know, what I'm feeling or my experience. And then basically, I'm packaging it in a way to try to orchestrate the exact response that I want to get from the other person, specifically my wife. And so I think that learning to just be present with your emotions and where you're at and learn that it's okay to imperfectly communicate where you're at, I don't have to have all the exact reasons, because what's great is I've Realized that when I prepackage that, it tends to not be a conversation. I just kind of, like, dump this big kind of box on my wife, and I'm just like, cool, she's cool. And then we just move on. But if I'm able to not image, manage and try to control the situation, but just be real about how I'm feeling, that opens the door for questions and more dialogue. And honestly, intimacy happens more at those moments than if I'm just trying to manage this presentation of how I'm feeling and where I'm at. And so that's just something I'm personally exploring that I think would be helpful for couples in the situation.

I think that's really good, because if you're prepackaging, that's a form of COVID manipulation. I'm going to quietly manipulate you behind the scenes to get the expected or the desired answer.

Yeah.

So what you're saying is to drop that. And, you know, while it's difficult to just have blind honesty, that's at least start with. Before you just answer what might be a lie or what might not be the whole truth.

Yeah.

Stop for a minute and say, let me think about how I'm going to respond to you. And then you can start to kind of get control of your physiology if your heart's racing. You know, we talk a lot about when working with couples that when you start to notice those fight or flight indicators coming on, heart racing, stomach dropping, head feeling tight, stop and really think before you move on and react to your spouse rather than respond.

Totally. Yep. You know, this conversation, I feel like it was something that we are entering into this space and talking about this topic because we want to help people who are currently have this pattern of gaslighting, manipulating, and lying to better identify it, to maybe understand why they've been doing this and maybe diminish some of the shame that they may feel, but then also, like, make those adjustments and changes to stop doing that because it is damaging to the relationships around them. But then also wanting to help a betrayed spouse who's experiencing this, to finally have someone say, you are right. Trust your gut. You are seeing some of these things. And really our hope in this is not to, like, pit two people against each other. We're trying to have this conversation so that both sides of a relationship can understand how these things are playing out and then how to take some steps toward building trust and removing these patterns in a relationship. And, man, this is not an easy conversation. These are very, very loaded words. You say any three of these words that anybody in a recovery or healing journey can just, like, spout off really quick. And so just understand that that's our hope is restoration is bringing relationships back together and understanding that these patterns don't have to be present in our relationships long term. So, Eileen, we love you, we're a fan of you. We're so glad you're on staff. And we mean it.

We do.

We absolutely do mean it. And we'll try to, like, not have it be so long till we have you on another episode. But thank you so much for being with us today and the expertise that you bring.

It's been great. Thanks for having me.

And wherever you're at on your journey, pure desire is here to help create a roadmap for your healing. If you or someone you know is impacted by sexual brokenness or betrayal trauma, go to PureDesire.org and let's start the healing journey today. Don't forget to subscribe. Subscribe to the podcast. Each week we put out new content to help you on the road to healing and freedom. And lastly, never stop being healthy.