254 - Fear Of Sex During Recovery

You're listening to the Pure Desire Podcast, your safe place to find hope, healing and freedom from sexual addiction, betrayal and relationship issues. What is up? I'm your host, Trevor Windsor, and you're listening to episode 254 of the Pure Desire podcast. You're joining me as always, my co host, Nick Stumbo.

Officer Johnny.

Oh, gosh. All right, full disclosure. You have been saying that at least for the last two or three days every time you walk by our one of our newest employees, Mr. John Beguman. I still have no idea what that's from.

You have not seen the movie Free Guy with Ryan Reynolds?

Yes, but I. Okay. It's actually has made a much bigger impact on you than it has on me.

I really, I've seen a couple times with my boys and then like on a couple of our trips, like when I'm looking for a movie just to kind of zone out on. I've watched that. So yeah. Yes, it's Ryan Reynolds character saying that to the police officer Johnny. And we just happen to have a John in our office, so it's convenient that way.

I'm interested to see how you connect this to today's episode. We had Robert and Rebecca Vandermeer, two of our clinicians. And then Robert's also on our speaking team. We had them on to talk about fear of sex during recovery and healing.

Yeah, it's actually one of my spiritual gifts, Trevor, to connect illustrations, to talk.

I don't disagree. I don't disagree.

In the movie Free Guy, there are the sunglasses people and they're the heroes and they get to do whatever they want and life works and they get all the money and then there's, you know, Ryan Reynolds character is actually a non npc, non playable character who's just supposed to be in the background. And I think about in this area, like when we're in recovery and maybe because of woundedness with our spouse, there's not sex happening or when it's happening, it's not good, or we just feel like there's something broken in our relationship. Is it ever going to get better? I think it can feel like that npc, who's looking around like all these other people, you know, in this, this world around me, they seem to get to do what they want. Their marriages look great. And I mean, honestly, we don't know the truth of what's happening in any given marriage. But it can feel like everyone else is getting to live this life and I'm stuck in fear or my spouse is stuck in fear. And what do we do? And we just recognize that can be a discouraging place. And so I think this conversation today was so helpful to acknowledge. There can be fear on either side. The struggler can fear. Am I just going to enter back into my same patterns? Is this going to reignite fantasy and lust? What images are going to come into my mind? Or on the betrayed spouse side of. Is he really thinking. Is she really thinking about me? Am I the one they want? I mean, there's just so much that goes into it. And I think to have an honest, open conversation to address those fears can really help a lot of couples move towards a better, healthier place and to realize they're not alone in some cocooned world where everybody else is having this great experience and they're not.

Yeah. And what I love about Bob and Rebecca is that they've lived this story, but then also they help people every single day through this process. So their perspective is they're just. They're very, very qualified in this area. So we do have a really good episode for you. A few things before we get there. Subscribe to the podcast. If you're not subscribed, just do it. It's free. You can find us on all the major platforms, and if you give us a review, it helps other people see the podcast. And it means a lot to us. You can follow us on social media, Facebook, Twitter, and Instagramuredesirepdmi. And if you'd like to consume video content, the full episode is gonna be up on YouTube. Just search Pure Desire Ministries. And then, Nick. We want people to know that our group leader training course is now out. It's like, on our website, you can order it. And we want everyone who wants to lead a group to go through this course.

Yeah, we're very excited about it. And as we emphasize in the course, really well, you don't have to be an expert to lead groups. But what that means is a lot of people leading groups are willing because of their story, because they've experienced some healing. And they're like, I think God wants to use me to help other people. But that idea of actually leading a group or having the title of leader can be very intimidating. And so we want to just really demystify that process. We want to help people realize you can be a regular, average person and do well at facilitating the healing journey of other people. Because at the end of the day, it's not your expertise in leading a group that makes it work. It's your willingness. And so if we can give you enough Expertise, if you will, or just enough foundation of how to lead group. Well, it can be a very, very successful endeavor. So we hope everyone gets a chance to watch it and that whether you're a seasoned veteran of doing groups or this is your first time to think about helping lead a group, that you'll really be trained and equipped to have a fantastic group experience.

Absolutely. So this course is eight sessions long, has six to seven modules per session, and what's great is once you're done, it acts as a library of training that you can always come back to.

So lifetime access.

That's right. If you are interested in the group leader training course, you can pre order it now. Just go to PureDesire.org GLT all right, here is our time with Bob and Rebecca Vandermeer on Fear of Sex during recovery. Bob and Rebecca Vandermeer, we're glad to have you back in studio. It has been a long time since we've had both of you on the podcast, especially in studio.

So we're gonna have this.

Studio is legit.

Thank you.

This is nice.

Thank you. Luke Meyer. Shout out Luke Meyer.

Thank you, sir.

You've done an excellent job crushing it. Uh, we're excited, like, genuinely. It's cool to see you guys. It's been a long time. Covid, obviously, that has thrown some, you know, obviously some wrenches in the engine, so to speak. Whatever. I'm not a car guy. Anyways, we wanted to have you guys on because of your positions here, being clinicians and you work with couples every single day that are working through recovery and betrayal. And we had a listener who sent in a recommendation for what do I do if I'm afraid to re engage sexually with my spouse or if my spouse is fearful of re engaging sexually during the recovery process. And we figure this is a great episode to have you guys on. We also did an episode with you guys, which is one of my favorites, the sex during recovery episode. So I felt like this is like just another iteration of the same conversation. So let's just jump in. For men and women recovering and healing from the impact of sexual brokenness, they may have fear around this. The first question is, is it normal? And if so, can you guys talk through the fear that they are gonna feel? And I mean, just talk about that. What are the fears that someone brings in in recovery and healing?

Yeah, I mean, the first question, is it normal? Yeah, I mean, I think absolutely the topic of sex already, I mean, at this point, for any couple already has shame attached to it. Right? It's already been problematic for them. I mean, there's a variety of stuff all mixed up in it. Right. So, yeah, I mean, I think just talking about it is gonna be challenging. It's gonna include some fear.

Yeah.

And with that being said, then some of those fears that a lot of people are just very common for most people is whether it's. There's a fear of being used mostly on the spouse side of things. You know, if she's being used. If the addict is a man. Of course. Yeah. If this person is being used for sex. But then there's also shame that may come up afterwards for both, Whether it's for the addict or the spouse. There's also that fear of maybe not having enough sex that comes up very much for everybody. I feel like even. Yeah. And also maybe even the fear of trying to keep the addict from acting out and just having that fear of I have to or I won't out of that fear of possibilities. Yeah.

That feels like one where there's. Because I think that that was some of where the question came from, from this listener, too, was like, I've been working really hard on my recovery, and will re. Engaging sexually with my spouse reignite my addiction? Like, will it just. Like, everything just goes right back to what it was before. And there's that trepidation in trying to engage with your spouse.

Yeah.

Cause it's even like, well, man, this stuff that I was so familiar with in my addiction, Whether it was with, like, you know, an affair partner or in pornography, like, can I do this, like, now in a healthy sense, where afterwards I don't feel shame over it? Like, is this dirty? Right. Because, I mean, is this position okay? Is that position not okay? I mean, just all of these questions that. That are there that are connected to past challenges at the very least.

Yeah.

Well, if you think about it, it's such a personal, intimate area of our relationship. And when there's been wounding there, there's a lack of trust there. I mean, we talk about it on so many of these episodes. It's really traumatic. And I mean, particularly for the betrayed spouse, the one that's wounded in that way. But I think in what you guys have been discussing, there is even some trauma. If the addicted or struggling spouse is really getting honest about their behaviors, they're probably encountering some of their own pain of the way I've hurt people or the choices I've made, how it's damaging relationships. And so when you think about sex, it's like, for both partners, it might Be we're going back to a place that was traumatic or that has caused a lot of pain and what will happen. And, you know, you think of a person was in some kind of serious event on a plane that. That crashed or had a significant engine failure, and there was. That was trauma, like you would expect the next flight, if you take one again, some of those feelings might come back. You'd be like, oh, we'll just get over it, you know, because airplanes never crash. Like, well, yeah, but the one I was on did, and it was scary. And I don't want to go through that again. And so I think if we can just normalize that in a way that people can talk about it, and that's the purpose of groups and counseling and having those kind of relationships to say, what do we do about this? Because I think if you don't talk about it, it's more likely that that fear is just going to stay there and become part of. Part of the way you're relating to each other.

Yeah. I think one of our questions later, there's some good stuff that I'm looking forward to unpacking with that too. But on the addict side also, I think there's the fear of, well, once we re engage in, this isn't gonna be as frequently as I want. Right. Because now there's all this negative stuff. And they've compartmentalized their addiction from sex with their spouse oftentimes. And so there's like, well, yeah, that's cool. I've been working on this stuff over here. But I hope that this doesn't change. I hope that this is still just as much as I need to use that word need, which we get rid of that word, but it's not.

Or we even have people struggle, and the mindset can be, well, if I get healthier, we'll have sex more, because now I'm better. So they should want it more. And we just ignore a whole lot of other things that get in the way and can cause some trouble there. So let's keep diving into it. The next question we wanted to ask is just related to maybe that perception for couples going into it. And it's this, can we really heal and have a healthy sex life? And as you were saying, Bob, that can be compartmentalized where we feel like, yeah, I know, I know we can heal, and emotionally, we can work through things, and I can work on my issues with pornography, but will our sex life ever be healthy? I think some people wonder, will there just always be a shadow over that? Part of my life now.

Yeah, that's part of the recovery process. That it's a never ending growth and learning journey. With that being said, then yes, we truly believe and have seen change and healing in that area. However, it is work. Like any change that you want to make and maintain, it is work. And so sex will need to be something new for the couple. And that so many times just has to start with your own personal self awareness, healing and growth as well as that intimacy that it's based on, the emotional connection between the couple.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I love what you said about has to be something new. Because if we think that, like the healing and change is. If we think that the healing and the change is going to be like, oh, yeah, we're going to pick up where we left off. Like, no, I mean that old timeline, that old way of approaching things, like maybe even the old routines that they had, maybe the old routine was like, we do this, we have a glass of wine. Like, we start out initiating process. Yeah, the initiating, like the foreplay, like the ritual, like what the ritual was. Like, even that. Okay, well, did we ever talk about that? Like, was part of that actually part of the addictive behavior and ritual? And did this, like, spouse feel engaged and loved and cared for? And so I think in this whole idea of it, of the healing process is also to say, all right, we might just need to set all of that aside and reinvent what this looks like for us.

Yeah, I think we've said it on probably more than half the podcasts we've done that. We're not here to stop a behavior. We're here to change the way you do life. And if I'm looking to do life differently, then the intimacy I share with my spouse on a physical, sexual level will be different. Different doesn't mean good or bad, but it does mean different. And for some couples, I know it means they will have sex more frequently because they rediscover some passion. They rediscover healthy reasons to be physically intimate. And other couples, it means it's less frequent because they realized what was Dr. It was more a false sense of libido or manliness or things that just weren't even necessary. And as they let go of that, they realize, I don't have this need quote unquote that I thought I had. And so I think if we're open to that, like, it will be different, then the answer is, yes, it can be healthy. It may not look the same, and it probably should not look the same because that would indicate we're not doing life differently. We're just trying to stop a bad behavior.

And we're trying to. In this, we're trying to create more safety and security in that relationship. And so as recovery and healing is happening and that connection and that safety that you feel. Because obviously trust and safety are broken at discovery. Right. Like, that's just. It's not there anymore. And so that process of that being recovered, that's a part of this too. We're gonna laugh real quick just because your daughter is in studio eating carrots.

With headphones on. With headphones on.

It's so great. So you should watch this on YouTube if you're listening. But I just think that that's so important to consider that, yes, the frequency may be different, even the intensity may be different, but the hope is that as you re engage, it becomes something that's safer. And because of that, I think over time, will be more enjoyable for both spouses.

Yeah.

Yeah. And what a beautiful goal to have is to get to a place in life with your spouse where sex is one of the best things in your relationship because you've actually put the work forth and you've grown and you're at a better place than you were before.

Yeah. So let's say a couple is here and they have some fear concern going into re engaging. They feel like they're at a place where this is on the table now, this is a conversation. What are some suggestions or tips that you guys would have for couples in that space?

Yeah, I think one is to take your time. Re engaging. There doesn't need to be a rush. Take your time. At this point in the process, you're probably having conversations you've never had before anyways. Right. And so let's have conversations about par with that. Yeah, let's keep having those, for sure. Those rigorously honest, vulnerable conversations where you're talking about the things of your ritual, you know, the things of your patterns, like, the things of, I don't know, like, how's the bedroom? Like, what's the light? You know, I mean, like, talk about all that, but there's no rush. Like, don't feel pressured to rush to jump back into bed because that, like, that didn't. That didn't solve anything before. It's not going to solve anything now. It can be part of something. But just like, take your time.

Which then to be able to take time, we go back to kind of what I mentioned a few minutes ago is that focus on the pursuit of emotional health first. Which then if you are doing that as a couple, then it'll be easier to have those conversations so that when you re engage, you're able to feel safe, to be seen, to be heard, and to even know what your preferences are and dislikes. And so it's. It's very important to focus on that emotional health first.

We've talked a lot about how our sexual connection is meant to be an overflow of the intimacy we're sharing as a couple. And so that's what I think of in recovery. If we're at a level where that intimacy is really growing and developing and we feel like sexual connection is kind of the logical outflowing of where we're headed, then great. And if you're not there, I think it's not trying to run ahead of where your intimacy is at as a couple and not trying to force it or just make that feeling of connection come through sex if it's not happening in other places. And. And again, I really think in this area, for every couple, it looks a little different. There's not like, you know, it'll take this amount of time and then you'll do this just depending on the level of wounding, the level that it's been happening, you know, how long into marriage they are. Is it the first marriage? There's so many questions. I think that would determine the differences there. But just kind of letting it be, whatever it is, for your timeline. And the other thing I was thinking about when you asked the question is just making sure as a couple, you're able to talk about it, to acknowledge it with each other, and if need be, even being the one who's willing to ask the partner, like, do you have fears about this? Let's talk about it. So that. And my goal, if I'm the one, the spouse asking that, it's so that I can truly listen and hear and validate. Like, I can understand why you would feel that way. And whether I'm the betrayed spouse or the struggling one to just recognize my partner may have concerns. And as they share them, I listen, I welcome them, and I try to understand and then maybe ask questions of what could we do together that might help address some of those fears or alleviate them. And I think the more we've talked about it, then we feel like, oh, I'm heard, I'm seen, I'm understood. And I might feel like we can keep moving then towards those fears rather than avoiding them.

You know, something too, just an extension of that. And I know that people know this already. We've talked about this before, but comparison in recovery is really hurtful. Like where you're at in recovery and comparing myself to that, like maybe we're in the same group or something. I feel like that's always harmful. And same thing with this topic. Like, maybe you've got someone in group who, like them and their spouse are now engaging sexually and you and your spouse are not. It's not a comparison game. To your point that your journeys and your stories are so different as to what has happened. And so just to take that into consideration, that comparison, the way I've always thought of it is that whenever comparison is made, someone loses and you just don't want to create that dynamic.

Sure, yeah, yeah. With. I mean, with this question, because was it some suggestions, right, that they have a concern about re engaging. Don't think about fear as roadblocks to re engaging sexually. Like, think about these fears as really keys to unlocking emotional intimacy. Because the fears are there because of past stuff. And so if the fear is a roadblock, then we're going to be afraid to talk about it. We're going to try to avoid them. We're going to think of them as obstacles as opposed to like, Nick, what you said, if we ask, like, hey, what is your fear? Why is that fear there? Then all of a sudden, as we begin unpacking why these fears are there, like, we talk about our past, we talk about our trauma, we talk about our own relationship, which provides opportunity for emotional intimacy. Right. And so now that emotional intimacy now becomes like a key to better connection, whether it's emotionally or sexually.

Totally.

Yeah. And even having a perspective of coming to those conversations with a good sense of curiosity, like wanting to understand, to know your partner, whatever that may be, in terms of whether it's fears or likes, dislikes, all of these, just having that approach can be so helpful because we're removing all those other assumptions, all those other unknowns. But more so have this spirit of I'm curious, I really legitimately want to get to know you better so that we can connect better.

Yeah. So we talked about this in the episode on sex during recovery. But I think it's good to bring up again in this context of people who are experiencing fear about sex and how to work through that. What would you say in terms of discussing and implementing abstinence during the recovery process? And how would that relate to this topic of fear of sex?

Yeah, yeah, that's great. I mean, we recommend it almost always. And so, like. But that's in a clinical Setting. And so I think if you were.

You have someone who's guiding you through that process, Correct?

Yeah.

Yeah.

So when I say we, I mean, Rebecca and I like, with clients. Right.

Yeah.

And so we would say engage in it with support. So if you're going to participate in an abstinence period, make sure you have support. So, like, from a counselor or. And. Or that both of you are in a group, so you've got support. Right. You've already. And also, don't do it at the very beginning of recovery because your world is spinning out of control. And what we don't want is we don't want you to try to have an abstinence period and then just like crash and burn, where the addict is now making advances at his wife and she's feeling used, and then she feels like she has to give in, but then he can't stop. So then they end up having sex, and then. Right. And we'll get to that in a minute. But basically, like, if you do it too early and you don't have support, then it can end up being kind of worse off. I mean, it ends up being kind of a traumatic thing.

Yeah. And at the beginning of the process, you're learning so much about your new reality that it's important that you are educated in a sense. Right. That you understand that you have a better understanding of what it is that you're walking through in the moment. But that being said, then once you're a little bit further in your process, having a plan in place is huge in terms of what should we focus on during this time? What should we do with our nights, with our time together? Because then again, you're not trying to just figure it out in the moment or on the spot or having all these uncertainties, but having an agreement where you're both, again, communicating, having that emotional health connection where it's like, okay, let's talk about this. What are some things that would mean a lot to you physically without it being sexual?

And I guess one quick thought on this, too, is to differentiate between a therapeutic abstinence period and you just found out through discovery or disclosure, and you want this person as far away from you physically as possible. Right. Like, differentiate between those two. So it may be appropriate for you that when there's discovery or when there's disclosure that like, to create some space where sex isn't happening. And that's about safety. That's about. And I think what we're talking about more so now is like a therapeutic abstinence period.

Both parties agreeing upon this.

Absolutely. And you're doing it not just for the safety, I need you away from me, but you're doing it so that you can get to a place where you can reengage sexually again with health.

Well, and I feel like in our last conversation about this, that there's like a reset period where you're allowing yourself to kind of hit a baseline again and then reinvent, as we've already talked about, reinvent what normal is. And what I love about this is the idea of putting a plan in place is that it's something that you're creating also the expectations for both parties that if there's an agreed upon time and this is what the process will look like, then, you know, let's say the struggling spouse, if they want to reengage, if there's not expectations, they might re engage that might end up being like, damaging to their relationship if there's tension there. But if it's like, we know that we're gonna do it for six months and then when we come back and reevaluate and the timeline is gonna be between you and your support. But once you come back, then you have those expectations. And I feel like that will help both spouses, both the betrayed spouse and preparing for that conversation, and then also the struggling spouse, as they're thinking through this, has a time period in place. I don't have to just like, not ever try to make advances on my spouse again for the rest of our marriage, but have that right expectation going.

Into a. Yeah, we typically also recommend it like in a. There. In a clinical setting like that, it would be after a formal disclosure because we wouldn't want them to engage in this abstinence period where they're working on emotional intimacy, building trust, building connection. And then you throw a disclosure in there and some bombs get dropped. Right. So we would recommend this after a disclosure so that whatever connection they're working on, whatever trust might be being built, whatever risk is being taken emotionally, doesn't get totally undermined by this disclosure bomb.

You throw the disclosure grenade.

Yeah, well, and that's what I wanted to reemphasize what you said there, Bob. Really, in this whole episode, we're kind of assuming two individuals that are both working towards their health that are having a level of traction, and there's not issues within the marriage of extramarital affairs or maybe abusive, painful things being done to the other person where they're not safe in the home or safe in the bedroom. Because I think that just needs to be stated because there is some under cultures in, I mean, let's say it within particularly Christianity that can communicate, especially to the woman, like, well, you just need to grin and bear it. You just need to be available. You need to help meet his needs. And as we've discussed on many podcasts lately, like, that's not healthy. Right. Or good. And so if you're in that situation where it's there's other people that you've discovered are part of this equation or there's abusive things happening, the fear of sex is very legitimate and maybe will never be on the table again. And so you just need in those situations, with the help of friends and a counselor to determine if that's a place you're in. This whole conversation maybe doesn't apply to you because you need to determine if this relationship is something that should be worked on and if you are in particular the betrayed spouse, the female who's realizing, I've been really put in some very dangerous positions. It's not healthy for you to be asking these questions right now. So hopefully those that listen are kind of tempering it through some of that filter and believing even if you're currently a spouse who is in that really negative place where this conversation shouldn't be on the table, maybe at some point down the road, even in another marriage, you may be still coming back to some of this trauma of, well, I found out I had a spouse that was doing all these things. The marriage did not last, nor should it, and so we divorced. But you'll remarry statistically at some point. And it's very likely that maybe even after several years, you'll be back into the trauma of, I don't know how I feel about sex. I don't know if I should be re. Engaging. And so these principles can apply in that season of life as well, even if right now it's not the right conversation to be having.

Yeah. Yeah. Because I think. Thank you for saying that, Nick. And I think to that point too. I mean, if you're on that side of things where this is not an appropriate conversation for you right now and you're not having sex because like, you just found out there is discovery, disclosure, like, also practical things like go and get tested for STDs, you know, ask your addict spouse to also go get tested. Right. I mean, you're not having sex right now before you reengage. Right. Like, let's make sure that everyone is.

Also safe in place, that, you know, this is safe, this is appropriate.

Yeah. And so what we're talking about is kind of presupposing that we're not in that place, that we're. That we're at a different place in the process.

Yeah.

I think a real practical thing too, and what Rebecca was saying about like, have a plan is for. For the couple to make. Basically both of them have a list of things that they would. That they would like to do with each other. So they each make their own list of, hey, this is what we're going to do.

Non sexual things.

Non sexual things that we're going to do over the next. Whatever the time period is for the abstinence period. Here's our list. Combine that list and then put it on a calendar. Right, Right. So maybe it's. I want to go on walks with you a couple times. Great. Then put that on a calendar. I want to go, you know, do like a painting class with you. Great. Put it on a calendar. Right. I mean, so to take these non sexual emotional connecting things, both of you have a list of things that you would like to do. Put that list together and put it on a calendar. Otherwise this stuff's not going to happen. Right. And you're going to go through three months of no sex and just had, like, didn't have any conversations you're in.

And Barrett.

Yeah.

All you did was just not have sex. Like you go on a mission trip and do that.

Well, and the whole point of that, again, is to re. Engage emotionally. You're creating intimacy in the relationship which eventually will later, you know, obviously pour out into a sexual relationship when you can reengage. But I like that because you're getting to know your spouse on an emotional level as well there. And that's what we're. That's what we're after ultimately, not just a better sex life, but a better marriage because you're closer.

And there's more pointers that we gave on the podcast that we did before.

Yeah, go back and listen to it. We'll put it in the show notes. Okay. Pornography, it's not a comfortable subject, but 94% of men and 87% of women have seen pornography at some point in their lives. Has porn impacted your life and your relationships? Well, here's the good news. You can begin the journey to freedom today and have peace of mind knowing you're not alone in the fight. That's how Covenant Eyes, this week's sponsor on the podcast, works through biblical accountability. When you sign up, you choose an ally to receive your device reports and walk with you toward a life Free from porn and the life that God desires for you. You can try it free for 30 days by visiting www.CovenantEyes.com. and you can enter the promo code puredesire at checkout. All one phrase, no spaces. That's www.convenantize.com, promo code PureDesire at checkout. Freedom begins today. So at what point in the recovery process should couple. And again, I know this is kind of a question where it's like, well, it depends, but at what point in the recovery process should couples re. Engage sexually and what should that process look like? And maybe for you guys with your clients, like, what are you looking for before you maybe encourage. Okay, we think you guys are ready to reengage.

I think one of the biggest things is when they are both ready, when they feel like they are ready. Granted, maybe this is coming as a result of afterward, the abstinence period. And there are couples that they go through this period and the date comes around and they are actually not ready. And whether it's because they don't feel like they're there yet emotionally, or because they are such a good place that they realize, you know what, it's great. But we don't have to make this huge event with blowing whistles and like, for the night off. Right. Or the day off.

It's like candles lit, streamers in the room. Yeah, right.

And so, but then again, that should be a result of that emotional work where they're able to communicate and be honest with, I'm not ready or I'm ready. And this is why. And go along with that.

Yeah, sure. Because I mean, there's a lot of addicts where as soon as they start the abstinence period, they've got like a countdown timer going, you know, like a popcorn chain.

And same for the spouse. Like, count down, like in the opposite way. Like the anxiety.

Yeah, don't do that. Because your spouse may add links to.

That all the time. Yeah. They might be real links in a real chain. Yeah, yeah. And like, that happens oftentimes at the front end of the abstinence period, where that's all they're thinking about.

Sure.

And so then there's this pressure leading up to like, to. To perform to whatever, like on this day at this time. I think we had a client one time who even like, like at midnight woke his wife up and was like, okay. And we're like, no, don't do that. Right.

Yeah.

And so there's times where, well, regularly I'll recommend to the. To the addict, like, listen, the Best maybe thing that you can do is the day that your abstinence period is done, like, set up a date. So you guys go out and you tell your wife, we are not going to have sex tonight. Like, I want you to know this is so important to me, that we are emotionally connected.

Yeah.

That sex tonight is not even an option for me. Like, I just. I want this. I want you to know that I'm not just jumping in bed with you the first chance I get, though. I miss you, and I want you, and I, you know, whatever.

Right.

Well, don't you think that's kind of a signature of the healing process, that for the addict, sex has become an idol? Acting out that physical rush has become a God that, in a sense, is central to their life, and they have to have it. And healing for that struggler looks like it's not as important anymore. They've had appropriate things occupy their thoughts and attention and the center of their life. And sex, if they're married, has become an appropriate part of that relationship. And I think if that's true for the addict, then that's also true for the marriage. That if sex has been like, what the marriage is about and all the focus and energy is on, are we having it or are we not? Health is actually. It's just becoming an aspect of a much healthier relationship that's in the middle. And I think when you feel that happening again, the timeline for some couples, depending on what's happened, might be relatively short. For other couples, that might take a while. But I think when you see that of, like, yeah, we can re engage sexually not because it's the biggest thing in our life, but because we both feel safe. We feel like we'd enjoy it, and we feel like it would really fit within the connection we have with each other.

Yeah. And you'd mentioned earlier about just, like, the trauma of a spouse. Right. I mean, at the end of this, if. If the addict is saying, all right, the time's up, like, let's go. Like, that also might bring up some of the betrayal trauma that the spouse was already dealing with. Right.

I'm ready. I have to perform. I have to make them feel something.

Yeah. As opposed to, like, hey, listen, I know our time's up, but, like, let's say let's just sit down and reevaluate. Like, have we met our goals? And if not, then what do we need to do to move forward and meet those goals? But what we don't want to do is re traumatize a spouse because like, you know, you're coming in all ready to go.

Yeah.

Yeah.

What? Just kind of a, like, offshoot kind of question. What if the betrayed spouse before that time period comes to a close? If they communicated, I think I'm ready. Like, should couples. Then would you encourage them? Okay, engage at that point. I'm washing your face and I'm like, I don't really know what you're trying to get at.

No, I know what you're. I would say, oh, you don't know what my face means? Yeah, yeah. My face is like, nah. I mean, I'd say no. Like, even if a spouse comes and says, you know what? I think I'm ready. That might be out of her own trauma, out of her own insecurity. Like, she's maybe feeling insecure and feels like she needs to pull him close or pull the, you know, him or her or whatever. Pull the addict close. And for the addict, it's really important. Like, they. They agreed.

Right.

We're doing X amount of days of.

Abstinence and follow through is huge in recovery.

Yeah, sure is.

And she might. She might be upset, she might feel rejected. She might have to process through all of that.

Yeah.

But in the end, all that you talked about.

Yeah. And if anything, that is just a great message or a great indicative that there may be some more betrayal trauma that needs to be worked through. Because during this abstinence period, it's important that the spouse is focusing on its own betrayal trauma, processing and healing and growth.

Yeah.

So it's not. So what I'm hearing you say is that it's not. This abstinence period is not just for the addict or the one who's struggling. This is for both. This is to create that space for healing for both.

Yeah. I mean, we've had clients where they've tried to do an abstinence period, and the husband was pushing, pushing, pushing, and then the spouse gave in. And so in this pro. And I mean, they had this failed process multiple times, and they, like, that ended up revealing for the spouse that, oh, my gosh, I think that I have maybe some issues with this where. Where I'm also like, it's not just my husband, but we have this system that isn't allowing for health to exist in our sex life. And like, that was a tough reality to come to for her, but I think the acknowledging that it is for both of them. Yeah. And it's not just, we can stop now because my wife feels better. No, because that's the old way of doing things. Let me put out a fire. Like the addict. Let me put out a fire. And when things seem okay, then we can just go back to how it was. And this is like a full stop reset.

Well, I think it's helpful to realize the addict or struggler may not be trying to create an unhealthy system. They may not be trying to manipulate that. I mean, some do. There's a.

Well, not consciously.

Right. But because they're unhealthy personally, it will inadvertently even create unhealth in the system. And unless you're willing to address that, it'll just stay there and wait to be dealt with. So help the listener out who's maybe hearing all this and just feeling like you're making it too big of a deal. If you want to have sex, have sex. If you don't, don't have sex. And they're just like, whatever. So talk through. What might be some of the negative impact for a couple who re engages sexually for the wrong reasons in recovery, either to try to help fix their partner or to try to create force, create connection. What could be some of the longer term negative impacts of that?

To your point, Robert, in terms of the betrayal trauma.

Robert, Robert, Robert.

I have a hard time saying his nickname in English.

Not because she doesn't. Not because she can't say my name, but it's just because it's Bob.

You want to use Spanish words, go for it. We're all about expanding our language here.

One of the negative impacts would be then again, like an added betrayal trauma, more trauma added to the betrayed spouse. If anything, look at it that way. For the betrayed spouse to remind yourself, oh, my goodness, this is a good way for me to find healing and growth and to be on the other side. Because otherwise you're doing a detriment to your own process if you don't.

What I'm hearing is like, there's a level of like you're taking the pressure off of the betrayed spouse. The pressure isn't there to have to meet an expectation or a need that the spouse has. And honestly, I can just feel like I'm envisioning a betrayed spouse who for the first time can just breathe and put their shoulders down and relax. Like, I don't have this thing, this cloud, maybe that's over everything when there's that period of abstinence or something like that.

Yeah. And what you said earlier, Nick, about the airplane thing, it would be like forcing someone to get out of an airplane before they're ready. It's like, well, I'M sorry, but more traumatic. I'm sorry, but, but I need, have no choice. I need to fly. Right. So sorry, you need to, you need to fly with me. Right. And it's, and, and, and forcing them into that one, it's not going to be enjoyable. Right. Like use the airplane analogy. You're not going to enjoy the idea that you're about to go to Italy for the weekend. No. You're just going to be freaked out the whole time. Like it's so, it's, it's going to rob any of the, of that joy and of the connection and like they're not going to be present emotionally, not going to be present mentally. I mean all of the negative impact that we talk about in like the impact letter and the disclosure process, like all of that impact is just going to be continued to resurface and re traumatized.

And there's that fear too with the betrayed spouse that if I'm being asked to re engage here and I don't, the fear of then what is my spouse going to do? Are they going to go do it with someone else? Are they going to go back to pornography? Then there's that fear.

But that's their responsibility, not yours. They're responsible for their choices.

Yeah.

I think about in how many relationships, the struggles with pornography or engagement with other people has really communicated to that betrayed spouse the sense of I don't matter or my who I am doesn't matter, they just use my body. And so if you're in recovery and that spouse is no longer acting out or looking at porn, hey, that's great. But if sex still makes the spouse feel like I'm just an object here for them to use. You haven't really improved anything. You've stopped behavior, but you haven't changed the way you do life. And so I think that's the negative impact is we can get too focused on, hey. And I remember some of this in my own story of feeling like, babe, I'm doing great. I haven't looked at porn in X number of days and shouldn't you be so proud of me? And they're like, well, not really because I didn't know you were looking at porn before. So that was not something I saw anyway. And it wasn't so much what you did, it's what it made me feel. And if you still make me feel the same way when you ask for sex, we're not really getting much better. So I think it's looking into that of how will that sexual connection make each Other feel, not just physically, but in kind of that emotional, I'm valued, I'm seen, I'm respected, I'm wanted. And if that's the heart behind it, I think you're in a better place. But if that's not the heart behind it, then engaging in sex too early will really, I think, just perpetuate. Like you're saying it's layering trauma on.

Trauma and distrust and broken promises. Right. I mean, there's so many layers to that. And even the shame that comes with it after, like you think you're at a better place or you're giving in and. Or acting out of fear. And then afterwards you just, you have to face this shame that comes right back at you.

Cause you weren't ready.

Cause you weren't ready.

Yeah.

And that's so funny too. Just as you're saying that I'm thinking sex with your spouse is not wrong, but you could do it at the wrong time, that becomes wrong for your relationship, you know? Cause it's not. Cause what you're saying of like broken trust or things like that, that's just a small thing, like me engaging. If we've agreed on a period of abstinence and then I re. Engage too soon, that's a small break of trust that has really far reaching implications for marriage. So it's just like, see small things that you're doing that make a big impact. But even the good things or okay things in your marriage aren't always okay.

Yeah, sure.

Interesting.

Yeah. And there's also a word that you like, Nick. Allostasis. There's that.

Our friend Rodney loves that word. Yeah.

Allostatious.

An hour practicing it before he taught a session using it.

Love you, Rodney. Please hear. We love you.

Yeah, of course we do love you. But yeah, I mean the allostasis part basically of the brain resetting for the addict.

Yes.

Right. So I mean there's like these, all these neurochemical levels that have been going haywire for so long. And part of what's great about the abstinence period is that there gets to be a pause on that and there's time for the brain to reset and. Which means at the beginning of it you're going to be feeling withdrawals like of an abstinence period. Right. Like you're. And all the. So not just the fear that might be engaged or part of it, but then also, you know, your brain cycles, dopamine cycles not being at what would be a more typical pattern. And so to re. Engage too soon, you know, you're also not giving your brain that time to reset, to find a new normal.

An illustration. And I'm just, I'm gonna say this, Nick. You and people who went to the summit know you were in a boot for a while. You're a runner, and you got hurt, and for you, you got hurt. And something needed to change. You needed time for your body to heal before you were able to re engage. Because if you re engage too soon, you're gonna do damage that ultimately can never be undone.

Yeah.

So you have to leave. Like, I just think of was living with my in laws, and I remember my father in law got his shoulder, had surgery on his shoulder, and he had to have a recovery period where he was able to give it time to heal and then start doing physical therapy and develop that muscle again so that he could actually use it. Because if he re engaged too soon, sorry, bro, the shoulder's gone. We're cutting the shoulder off. It's out of here. You know, and so I think that if you put it in that perspective, that's maybe a little easier to.

Sure.

I don't know. Like, that seems easier to swallow that reality when you put it in a different context. But that same principle is being applied to this scenario in this situation in a marriage.

Yeah. I mean, it feels punitive for, you know, for a lot of. Also to say there's some spouses that like not having sex even though they have fears mixed in with it, like, it also feels punitive to them. Right. There's some spouses where it's like, I enjoy sex, I don't want to stop, so why do I have to stop? Because. And so, I mean, there's all this stuff mixed in with it. But to say that no giving yourself the time that you need. And some people feel, well, we want to start a family. You know, maybe you're a young couple and you want to start a family. And, like, I just have to ignore these fears so we can get pregnant. Can't make anything easier. No.

Like, they're amazing, but they don't make things easier.

No, no, no, no. Okay.

All right, let's get to the last one. I mean, this is obviously open ended, but just what are some final encouragements that you guys might have for couples experiencing fear of sex during the recovery and healing process?

Your fears are valid. Like, they're not wrong. You're not weak for having fears. You know, we don't want to just brush these aside or ig them. They're there for a reason. And like, all of our trauma. We have these trauma responses, and that's what fear is. Right. Fear is a result of pain. So it doesn't matter if you're the addict or the spouse, if you have fear, it's the result of pain. Don't ignore it. Don't try and brush it aside. Like, figure out why it's there. And it doesn't mean that the fear will just totally dissipate, but you'll be able to navigate through it. Right. Like, you'll be able to approach sexual. And one thing that I realized we didn't talk about is some people have fear of sex because it's painful. And that's a real thing.

Right.

And so, like, there's.

You don't just get over it. No. Sometimes it could be emotional.

Yeah. Sometimes it's emotionally connected and identify the fears and see what's there. Sometimes it's physical. Go see your doctor. And so just to say that, like, for some of you, this isn't just a. Well, I just need to know there may be some actual physiological things going.

On, and there are physical things that can be done to help. I think some spouses need to hear that. I've heard Heather and Ashley talk about it after the women's Q and A sessions. That wives are like, wait, what? Like, I can get help for that. Like, I just thought it was going to be painful. Like, no, you could actually get help. It could get better.

Yeah. So the fear's there for a reason. It's connected to some pain. Find out why it's there.

Yeah. And I guess on my side of things would be. And you mentioned this, Trevor, a little bit ago, don't compare yourself with other people, especially in this process of this recovery. And you're in group, everybody is externally in different scenarios, and yet your process is your own. And this is a great opportunity then, for you and your spouse to continue engaging as a team and partnering together for the rest of your life. And that is that only can happen if you both are intentionally focused on what works for you, what's healthy for you. And so just to have that reminder of. Especially with sex. Right. Like, it's gonna look different than everybody else. And that is. Okay. That is how it should be. It's what's healthy for you and your spouse.

What I thought of in terms of final encouragement was this is where you need to remember the beauty of your vows. And that's assuming, again, that both sides of the equation are wanting to make it work, want to honor their marriage vows. And if that's where you are, you have this beauty of you both said, till death do us part. Which means if you re engage too early and it doesn't go well, have grace for one another and realize we're going to be here tomorrow and we're going to be married the next day and the next day, and we have time on our side. Not. I know we don't have eternal time on our side, but if we're not in this rush to fix it or do it perfectly the first time, and we can just give each other and ourselves grace that if one of us isn't ready and the other is, well, we got time. Let's just keep working it through. And realize that's the beauty of your vows that I've said. I'm going to be here, and we're looking to make this work. And if that's where you're at in your marriage, celebrate that side of it that the vows hold you in this place to say, we've got time enough to work it out and just lean into that.

Yeah, yeah.

Just. Sex is not your whole marriage. It's an aspect of it. It's an important aspect, but it's not everything. You didn't marry. You didn't marry having sex with your person. You married your person. That's a terrible way to say it, but that's the reality. I chose this person to marry this person. That's who I want to do life with. Emotionally, physically, spiritually, all of it. And so just know that this is an aspect. Not that it's not important, but it's just an aspect of it. Man, just this conversation. I'm so glad that we had this conversation, and I'm so glad you guys came in and you were a part of this one. What I'm just summarizing. It is normal to have fear around this in recovery and healing. It's very important. Essential is a better word to have support, whether it's a therapist, whether it's counselors, whether it's a group. And that fear. I love what you said. Fear isn't a hurdle, but it is something that we do need to work through. We shouldn't avoid it. We do need to press into that. And to use the word Rebecca that you used, curiosity, that's huge.

And if you're stuck in your fear, get help. It's okay to acknowledge I'm stuck in some fear. And that's why help exists.

And ultimately that sex can be healthy. Again, you can actually admit for some maybe it was healthy, maybe some it wasn't healthy, but it can be healthy if you push into this and do this process. So, Bob, Rebecca, thank you so much for your time.

Thanks for having us.

Great work, guys.

Yeah, yeah. Appreciate you.

And wherever you're at on your journey, Pure Desire is here to help create a roadmap for your healing. If you or someone you know is impacted by sexual brokenness or betrayal trauma, go to PureDesire.org and let's start the healing journey today. Don't forget to subscribe to the podcast. Each week we put out new content to help you on the road to healing and freedom. And lastly, never stop being healthy.

Sam.