255 - Restoring Our Vows w/ Brandon & Tonia Clark

You're listening to the Pure Desire Podcast, your safe place to find hope, healing, and freedom from sexual addiction, betrayal, and relationship issues. Happy Tuesday, or whatever day it is that you consume the content. I am your host, Trevor Windsor, and you're listening to episode 255 of the Pure Desire Podcast. You're joining me, as always, is my co host, Nick Stumbo.

Oh, you could be Lutheran, don't you know?

I mean, I'm guessing that you're, like, doing a Minnesota thing.

Yeah, I thought you might guess Fargo just because it's the only movie that sounds like Minnesotan. Although, ironically, Fargo's not even in Minnesota.

It's not?

No, that's North Dakota.

That's true. This is so. I've never watched the movie or the TV show.

It's an awkward strain. I would not recommend the movie, really, but no. A quick story on the accent. Some people know I went to seminary at Bethel Seminary in St. Paul and met a cohort. Cohort of other students there that we'd all come from other states. And when one of the guys from North Carolina was flying out for our first class, he met a gal on the airplane who was from Minnesota, and he mentioned what he's coming to do. And that's what she said to him because he was not a Lutheran pastor at all. But Minnesota is, like, huge Lutheran territory. And she said, oh, you could be Lutheran. Don't you know?

Don't you know?

That's good. So I just thought of that because our guests today are actually from the state of Minnesota, although I have a better connection than that when we get to it.

Good. Well, we had Brandon and Tonya Clark on today, and Brandon works with Covenant Eyes, and they both have been a part of now what's called the Restored Vows video course. And we had them on to talk about their story and the course.

Yeah, we love doing these stories of healing and just walking through someone's journey with them. And I think what we hear a little bit of in their story, like, in so many stories, when we bring up what we're going through, people have ideas and advice like, oh, you know, you should just be Lutheran, or you should just stop doing that, or you should try this. And. And there's a lot of things that don't work when it comes to recovery that honestly, many of us have been told would work, but haven't. And too many times in the church, people just smile and grin like, oh, no, I'm doing fine. Because they've tried all they know and there's nothing left. And I really love the way their story hits on how do we actually move into recovery in a way that works. And I think everyone will be encouraged by their story. Whether you are a struggler, a betrayed spouse, or just someone looking to help others. There's so many great ideas that come out of their story today. And what Covenant Eyes is doing with the Restored Vows course is very exciting. So just. Yeah. Loved this conversation.

Yeah. So a few things before we get to it. Today's episode is actually sponsored by Covenant Eyes and the Respect Thou's Free 14 day video course. In this course, our guests today, Brandon, Antonio Clark, talk through the dark period where pornography impacted their marriage and how they found healing and hope. If you're interested in checking out this free course, text the word vows to 66866. That's the word v o w s to 66866 and find the power in Restored Vows. Next. If you're not a subscriber to the podcast, we're on all the major platforms, just subscribe. It's totally free. I promise you'll never get charged anything for it. And if you give us a review, it helps other people find the podcast and means a lot to us. You can also follow us on Facebook, Twitter, instagramuredesirepdmi, and if you'd like to consume video content, this full episode is up on YouTube. Just search Pure Desire Ministries and then Nick. We are all in this year at the Pure Desire Summit.

Gosh, Trevor, when I think of the summit, I just get like warm fuzzies. And I wish every weekend was summit weekend because there is something about the summit. There's an energy, there's a vibe, there's being with people. And even if you're not able to come in person, there's this encouragement of this is my people, this is my community. Like, these are people that are walking the same road that I'm on or that I've been down, that understand some of these deeper things I've walked through, whether it's family of origin stuff or woundedness or, you know, figuring out a recovery action plan. Like we speak the same language and it's just like a homecoming. And so I encourage everyone listening. If you're on this recovery journey, we all need places like that to remember why we're all in, why this isn't just some side peripheral thing. We did that one time to try to get healthier, but it's a commitment to a journey of health and the summit is what that's all about. So we'd encourage you to be a part of our Friday Saturday event. It only happens once a year and quite frankly, in my very biased opinion, it just gets better every single year. And so if you haven't come, now is a great time to start. And if you've come in the past, we got some good stuff in store and we know you're going to love it.

Yeah. So September 16 and 17, and it is online. You can actually register online and watch from wherever in the world you'd like to. Or you can come in person to Troutdale, Oregon at Harvest Grove Christian church. We have Dr. Julie Slattery and Jay Stringer as our featured speakers. And you get to speak. Ashley Jamison speaking. Bob Vandermeer. It's going to be awesome. We have tons of breakouts. It's going to be a great time. So if you want to go all in with us in September, just go to PureDesire.org summit22 and register for the Pure Desire Summit. All right, here's a conversation with Brandon and Sonya Clark about their story of healing and how they restored their marriage vows. All right, Brandon and Tonya Clark, we are excited to have you on the Pure Desire podcast for the first time. Welcome.

Thank you. It's good to be with you guys. Yeah.

So a little bit of backstory. I'll let you guys give some background, but right now we're actually running an ad so people are familiar a little bit with your story where you guys are doing the restored vows course through Covenant Eyes, and so you get to share your story there. And it's a 14 day course, and so we'll make sure throughout the episode that they have the information that they need in order to access that. But this is new. We're meeting for the first time and so we're excited to hear your story today. And really we do believe that your story is going to be beneficial. Obviously, hearing someone else's story on the road to recovery and healing is always an encouragement. It helps our listeners. It helps us in recovery and healing know that we're not alone. And so we're excited to have you guys on. And with that, will you guys just give our listeners some background on yourselves, how long you've been married, some family stuff. And then what's your involvement with Covenant Eyes?

Yes.

So we've been married for going on what, eight years? Going on eight years.

Good job. You got that. Good job. Got the nod from the wife.

Two married, going on eight years. We have one daughter who is going to be 11 months old. Her name is Isabella, congrats. And she's just a joy in our lives after about six years of infertility, which kind of ties into our story. We'll get more into that later. And we live on a hobby farm of 10 acres in west central Minnesota. And yes, it is currently snowing, even though it's April 15th. Oh, my gosh. Wow.

Yeah. Spoiler alert. We recorded this early, just so people know, but, yes, it is, but it.

Is still April, which is crazy.

It's wild. It just snowed here and it's been like. It was literally 75 degrees last week. And then a couple days ago, it was snow. We had. How many inches of snow was here?

Six or seven inches?

Yeah.

Thick, heavy snow, though.

Yeah, a lot. It was. Oh, my gosh. So crazy.

Yeah. So, yeah, we. We really enjoy, you know, just hanging out and talking and watching old movies and spending time with our daughter. We're really big on, you know, just being intentional and spending time together as a family. So we play cards and games and we just really enjoy those simple things.

That's cool. So how did the Covenant Eyes thing happen in this 14 day course?

Yeah. So what's interesting is long before I came upon Covenant Eyes, as far as a job opportunity, I had been using Covenant Eyes in my own struggle when we were at really our worst points of our marriage. And so, you know, when it. When it came down to Covid, we had the opportunity to work from home at my previous position, and I really enjoyed it. But that position wasn't a work from home opportunity. And so I started just praying about different opportunities and seeing if anything was out there. And the Lord presented Covenant Eyes. And I was like, wow, wouldn't this come full circle if I had an opportunity to work in a ministry helping men, helping women, helping churches be able to battle against pornography, somebody. That's something that's plagued me for so long and certainly plagued my marriage for many years. And so, you know, went through the whole process and God opened all the doors. And so I've been there, coming on two years now and working in church marketing, just helping get the word out about all the resources we have, like, restored vows and. Yeah, just trying to help as many people as possible has been so destructive in my past that, you know, I just really don't want people to have to go down the same road that we go down.

Well, Brandon and Tonya, great job on the 14 day challenge. I had a chance to watch it and, you know, really appreciated your vulnerability and also the way that at the end of Each session there's those couples questions and couples devotional or scripture passage that they can read and focus on together. I just, I thought that was really well done. And so if people watch that, they'll hear some of this. But we wanted to put it together in one episode. So talk us through some of the initial stages of your journey, Brandon, and then we'll get to Tony's as well. But how did pornography enter into your life as a young person?

Yeah, So I was 12 years old, hanging out at a friend's house. We were down in his parents basement and we were just goofing around on the computer. And you know, up to this point I hadn't been exposed to anything. I was kind of the good kid on the block and. And so I didn't really expect anything out of the ordinary this particular night. But he turned to me at one point while we were just messing around and he said, hey, do you want to see something cool? And I said, yeah, sure, why not? And he pulled up, I still remember the website. He typed in and pulled up an image. And I didn't really know what it was at first, but I did put two and two together that this is a naked woman. And so he just started pulling up these images and going through image after image. And I was so confused and yet I was also just totally energized, right. I was experiencing just different things in my body that I wasn't or I hadn't ever experienced before, totally. And so he clicked on image after image and soon those images included men. And I realized this is what sex was and this was my first encounter with sex. I had never been. I had never had the talk with my parents or had any conversations of that sort before. So my first exposure to this was in my friend's basement at 12 years old. Unfortunately, it didn't stop because I felt like my brain was like a sponge just trying to soak everything in as much as possible. And so I went home after that and right away went downstairs to my parents computer and started looking at pornography. And you know, it wasn't long before I found videos. And that just totally changed the game because I fell into videos, I fell into masturbation, and the deal was kind of sealed, you know, by age 13, I was looking at pornography almost daily. And it just kind of continued to build from there and carry on through the rest of my high school and into college and, excuse me, unfortunately, marriage.

Well, and that's the thing too, we see this happen all the time, is that people get exposed and they don't have that safe place to have that conversation. It's not something that's talked about in the home. And so it's something that you need to keep secret because there's shame. There's this weird kind of. At least in a lot of stories we hear, there's this innate, like, I knew something was wrong. I knew this wasn't what I was supposed to be doing or be watching, but because I didn't feel safe talking about it in my home, then I just kept it silent. And when you keep it silent, that just perpetuates even more shame and even more secrecy. And so that's what spirals people into an addiction early on like that. So I feel like your story is just. It's not unique. We hear that so often.

Yeah. What's interesting about that, Trevor, is I always felt the need, for whatever reason, to clear the Internet history. I figured out how to clear whatever history I had on the computer because although, you know, my parents never talked to me, talked to me about it, I just had this sense of maybe I should keep this hidden as long as possible.

Yeah. And we're. I don't know what it is, man, but we're just so creative when it comes to, like, finding ways to hide to, you know, scrub the history, to just find ways around any guardrails or issues that we might have. That's crazy. Okay, so, Tonya, obviously, Brandon said that this moved on into your marriage. And so what was it like for you when you found out that pornography was present in Brandon's life and now in your marriage?

Sure. I think I knew. I had known about his. He had looked at pornography because we talked about that during dating, but I had no clue to what extent it was. And I didn't know anything about addiction. I didn't know anything about the addictive nature of pornography. I was very. Yeah. Not educated in that area.

Yeah.

And so when we got married, I just, you know, it just didn't make any sense to me that he would want anybody more than me. And we both enjoyed being intimate in that way together, and it was very fulfilling. I thought we were doing great. And then the first fall came, and he told me about it, and I was absolutely crushed because I was at a total loss. Didn't see this coming. Totally blindsided. Like, why? You know, like, in my head, I'm like, I don't even. I don't understand why.

How.

How could I have failed you? Why. Why was I not enough? I just. Yeah, I took it real personal. Real personal. Right away.

Yeah.

Yeah. It's amazing to me how, you know, we get to hear so many stories and the similarities of how many guys. And if we're using the. The more typical gender roles there the guy who says, oh, it's not about you. It's not your fault. And I would say a vast majority of guys say that. There's very few stories where the guy says, yeah, she wasn't pretty, or she wasn't available or she wasn't whatever. And so I went there. I know there is that story, and that's a different kind of pain. But most guys say, no, it wasn't about her. And yet a vast majority of wives say, but it felt like it was. I mean, that's my story and the one we hear over and over of what's wrong with me? Why am I not enough? And it's hard. The guy who's going, well, but it's not about you. And the gal's going, but it feels like it. And it sure is personal. And kind of addressing that and being willing to talk about that and accept one another's reality, particularly for the struggler, for the guy to go, okay, this really is the way it's making you feel. I've got to do something about it is so important.

Yeah, yeah. And I just. I feel like in that too, you start wearing the weight and responsibility of your spouse's actions when that's never your responsibility, ever your responsibility, but now you're starting to take ownership of something that's not yours, which has its own shame. Cause then almost that becomes a performance thing for you. If I can just do well enough and I can keep my spouse from this, and honestly, that's a very normal place to go, but is actually not normal. That's not what God intended. Right. For that to happen. So, yeah, we see that all the time. And it is just something that's so weighty on betrayed spouses.

Yeah. So, Brandon, there's an interesting question we like to ask because I think it's so common in our journey before you guys found some success and recovery together. What were maybe attempts that you had made along the way, whether in high school or college or maybe even within your marriage, that you had tried to change, but they weren't working. What were some of those things that you had attempted?

Yeah, so I found out when I was early on in high school that it was actually a sin. Who knew?

Right.

And so I wanted to try to rid myself of that. And I thought it would be easy, except it wasn't and so, you know, I went through some. Some different things. I kept it hidden, really, all throughout high school. It was in college where I started to try to find help. And one of the first places that I turned to was my Bible study group. And, you know, so I went through college back in 08 through 2012. So the Internet was around, but I think Internet pornography and the extent of it was very new at that point. And there weren't a lot of resources. There wasn't really a lot of research into it. And so I brought it up with my Bible study that I was struggling with this, hoping that they would be able to help me. And they did for a little bit. But what I saw as I continued to struggle is that they were doing the best with what they could, but they really didn't have any way to help me, you know, to direct me. They didn't have the education. Nobody really knew a lot about it. And so it actually came to a point where they gave me an ultimatum of, you know, you either gotta kick this thing or we can't be around you anymore because we don't want this to impact us.

Wow.

And, gosh. And I didn't know if they were serious.

Yeah.

But I also didn't want to find out. The trouble is, I was so into it that it was just a matter of time right before I'd fall again. And I did. And I just went up to them, honestly, you know, because I didn't want to hide anything from them. I've never really been about once this has come to light in somebody else's life that I'm journeying with. You know, I've never been about hiding it. So I told them and they actually followed through. And they. It was. It was towards the end of the school year where we just cut off ties. And those relationships have healed a little bit. I mean, I still run into those guys every now and then, but the relationship really hasn't been the same. And so that was my first experience with, you know, just this alone feeling that I. I don't know what I can do now. And so I tried some other, you know, accountability software and stuff like that, including Covenant Eyes. But I really just. I didn't have anywhere to turn. I didn't really know much about counseling. Nobody had really suggested it. People had brought up sa. But I was too prideful to go to anything like that. And. And I was, honestly, I was in denial, too, of like, oh, well, I'm not that bad. You know, I don't need to go to an essay group or anything like that. So, yeah, there were a lot of little things, but I think that that moment of. Of getting left really kind of helped me interiorize a lot of the struggle. And I say help. It wasn't a help at all, but it did push me further into, what do I do? Is this something that I'm going to have to live with the rest of my life? I didn't know.

Yeah. I think what you're saying there, Brandon, is why it is so important what Covenant Eyes does and what Pure Desire does. And other groups like us that are really saying we want to help equip and educate the church and believers and pastors, because I really think there are a lot of people out there that sincerely want to help. You know, pastors that want to help, small group leaders that want to help, friends at Bible college or school that want to help. But they're just like you said, Tonya, they don't understand addiction. They don't understand the brain. They don't really understand much of what's going on. And so the message they have is like, all right, you confessed it and you repented. Now go stop. You know, we kind of quote Jesus in John 8. Like, now go and sin no more. That should be it, right?

Yeah.

And even as the struggler, we can feel like, yeah, all right, I'm going to go and sin no more. And then when we do, it's like, oh, no, now what do I do? Because the people that are trying to help us aren't equipped with anything more than what they've already given us. It's like, I forgave you once. I told you to stop, and you're not stopping. So now this must be a you thing, and maybe you need to go away and deal with it yourself. And a lot of people, unfortunately, have gotten that message simply because they are not equipped with any more information than that. And so I love what Covenant Eyes does because I think it's an organization really making headway to just help equip. Like, hey, let's understand what's going on. And hopefully, unlike your story and my story and the stories in this room, that when people do come forward and say, I'm struggling, there'll be equipped Christians that are like, oh, we understand this a little bit. We don't have to be experts, but we understand enough to know how we can support you towards a journey of health and freedom.

Yep. So, Tonya, I mean, same question. Like, you know, some betrayed spouses can either just track to appease and just try to meet the sexual needs of their addicted spouse. Or they can start going more like the police officer always checking in, always being like. Like hyper aware and going after it. What were ways that you saw from your end that you were trying to help fix this problem in your marriage?

Yeah, for sure. Right away. I think right away, the first part of our marriage was kind of an appeasement. I didn't think. I really, really realized that that's what I was doing. But in the back of my head, I think I knew he had struggled in the past. You know, I was the real deal. I mean, who's gonna compete with the real deal?

Right?

Right.

So I think initially I was doing that subconsciously. Maybe not fully aware, but maybe a little bit.

Yeah.

And then when he fell anyway, then right away I kind of took it personal. I mean, like, dude, what's going on? I'm doing all this. We're doing all this. I thought it was great. What's going on. So I think right away I kind of had a loss. And I was at a loss. I knew it wasn't what. It wasn't right. It wasn't good. And he again said, you know, it's not. It's not about you. It's nothing you did. It's, you know, all those things that we were saying earlier. So we did get some. We met with a priest and we. And we talked with him, and he had Brandon leave the room, actually. And he told me, he said, you are. You are redeemed. You are a redeemed daughter of God. Christ redeemed you. You are nobody's format. And so that was kind of like my moment of, okay, okay, it's not me, but I don't. So now what do we do? Yeah, so we kind of came back home and honestly, I kind of went on the web interweb to find out different ways of trying different things, to figure out different answers. And, you know, Google's still quite limited in that area. Yeah, it's not a counseling site. But I would try different things. And intentionally I would. I'd try. Okay, well, let's try the weeping woman today or this week and see how that works. Okay, that doesn't work. Okay, let's try the hard. The hard woman this week. I'm hard and cold. Let's try that and see if that makes it stop. Yeah, in. But in all these things that I tried and I didn't. I don't think I ever tried the policing thing. Although occasionally it was really. I mean, it would Be hard if. If I would go to bed and he wouldn't come back to bed with me. I'd watch the clock.

Yeah.

If it was 10 minutes, I'd be out. Hey, honey, you coming to bed?

Yeah.

You know, things like that was policing.

Yeah.

Or I noticed at one point he had dropped Covenant Eyes off his phone. I was like, what's going on? Talk to me. Why did. Why are you not using this anymore?

Yeah.

So things like that. Definitely just trying different things. I was looking for a quick fix. I was looking for the quick answer so we could get on with our lives, move on, grow past this. And yes, go and send no more, and let's just be done.

Gosh. And that just has to be so exhausting. You're just working really, really hard and having to wear it every day, for sure. So, okay, you get to a point where enough is enough. You hit that rock bottom moment. And I know you guys talk about this a little bit in the course as well. What. What was that moment for you guys? That was rock bottom. Like, something needs to change or we're done.

So there was actually a couple. I would call them rock bottom moments. And the first one was. So, you know, as I've gotten into, you know, working at Covenant Eyes and read through a lot of literature and read about the effects on the brain, you know, I really didn't have a lot of emotional stability. You know, I couldn't control my emotions. I would blow up. I became very, very angry and not being able to control that. And while I can't attribute all of that to. Because I'm not, you know, a counselor or psychologist or anything to pornography, I really think that those years and years and years of porn had an impact on that. And so, you know, while the porn started to dissipate, we had a moment where I had gone 19 months, a string of 19 months without looking at pornography. And things were really good. I developed some good habits, good disciplines. Really close to the Lord at that point. And I got. You know how Paul says he who thinks he's standing on firm ground should take care not to fall? Yeah. So I had gotten very, very prideful and very, very comfortable with things. Instead of taking it one day at a time, I kind of glossed things over. And after 19 months, I had fallen. And that was really, really tough. But I didn't tell Tonya right away. And we went on a trip for work at that point, and we ended up getting into a fight. And she could tell you more about this, but I had taken on the old brand and tendencies of when I had been looking at porn and had not been having emotional control. So I followed her out of the place we were staying, and she had walked to a hotel, actually, to try and get a hotel for the night because I wasn't safe, because I was emotionally unstable. I was being emotionally abusive. And she was crying, and the hotel person had to tell her that they had no rooms. And so the. I think it was the general manager or something like that came out and asked if he needed to call the cops because he could tell things were pretty out of control. And I, of course, said, no, we can handle it. We handle it every single time. And so he seemed to take that answer fine. But when we walked out of that hotel, two cop cars had showed up. And that was a moment that I will never forget because I had realized that now this had gone just beyond us. This was involving the cops. This is involving people at the hotels who we had never met before, but were now thrust into whatever we had had going on for three years at that point. And so that was a really, really low point of something's got to give here. Because the cop told me, you know, if I got to come back tonight, it's not going to be good. Thankfully, he let us go. He just said, you know, don't talk to each other tonight. For whatever reason, we were able to just go back to our place. But I did. She went into where we were staying and I called my friend and like, dude, I need help. And he had told me about a marriage intensive for hurting marriages. And I said, I think we got to give it a try. I have been putting it off for a couple years at that point, and I realized that now there's not really a lot of other choice that we need to do this. Yeah.

As you tell your story again, occurs to me how many times in stories people feel like, I never thought we would be at that point, you know, where I'd be standing talking to cops about my marriage. And I think of people who say, I never thought it would cost me my career or that my marriage would be on the brink or that my kids would find out about it or, I mean, so many stories. It's like, no one thinks that will happen to them until they're standing in and it's happening like, oh, my gosh, this has gone beyond, like, how did I get here? Because it was just this thing that I did once in a while and I struggled with and was no big deal. And all of a sudden, like, I'm on the verge of some major consequences or I'm facing some major consequences. And that, by God's graciousness for so many of us is a point where he's able to shake us up enough from our. I don't know what it is, our protective structures or our control issues that we wake up enough. And I've described it that way and heard people describe it like we come out of the fog enough to do just what you did, to reach out for help and say, I've got to go beyond the resources I have. We need something more. And I'm just so glad in your story you guys were able to do that before anything, before it went even beyond that. Because the other question here, rock bottom. Rock bottom is really subjective, right?

Yeah.

Because for you that felt like rock bottom, but for a lot of other people it's like, well, but I didn't respond to that moment. And a year later I was in the same pattern and it got abusive and I ended up in jail. And, you know, rock bottom, you find out it can keep going. And so, you know, for listeners to just say, if you see that you're veering towards a place and you're telling yourself, oh, it'll never get that bad, well, listen to guys like Brandon and us on the podcast say, oh, it will. If you don't reach out for help beyond yourself, at some point it will. And I'm not saying what that will look like, but you'll get to a point of saying, I never thought it would get this far. And so why wait if you can allow your experience to reshape the direction. That's why we do these episodes. So really appreciate you sharing that, Brandon.

Yeah, and I wish I could say too, Trevor, that that was the rock bottom moment that changed everything. It did get us in the right direction to start seeking help. But the other rock bottom moment, after it went through this marriage intensive and some follow up sessions, was actually getting an ultimatum from her. You know, we had gotten in a fight and we've been in some physical altercations and stuff, getting thrown across the room. I'm really glad she's not that great at baseball because that would have hurt. But, you know, it really just culminated in her saying, hey, buddy, you either gotta get help and be willing to get help or get out. I'm done. And that really was the rock bottom moment where I was able to step further out of that fog like you were talking about Nick, and see the seriousness of what was going on. But I was almost, I was Ashamed at the fact that the cops showing up and I didn't know what they were going to do. They could have arrested me if they wanted to. I was being emotionally abusive, but they didn't. I was ashamed that that moment wasn't enough of a wake up call. I had to get to the point of getting an ultimatum.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Yeah, well. And that at least got you pointed in the right direction. You got the marriage intensive, which I think what happens sometimes for couples there does start to be, okay, hey, we took some steps, but if it wasn't enough, it's at least raised the anti word, particularly for you, Tonya, the betrayed spouse is saying, I'm realizing this, this can't keep happening. And so what else needs to happen? And so talk through that a little bit. You guys, what were those early steps in recovery as you started to turn the corner in your story towards healing? What were some steps you took in the early days that really actually started to make a difference?

Sure. When we did the retrify intensive, and honestly, honestly, for me, that was a huge step in the right direction. I through all this, I mean, there was a lot of hurt, a lot of pain, but I'm, I'm a very optimistic type person, you know, oh, tomorrow will be better tomorrow. To the, to some extent that I almost deny some of the hardships that are going on. And it's easy to just gloss over what I'm feeling and the issues that I'm having. And so when we went through that intensive, as we were going through it, I was like, dang, yeah, that's not right. No, we shouldn't be treating each other like that. No, he can't talk to me like that. That's not okay. You know, so it was giving me permissions and it was teaching me boundaries, and those were huge for us. And so as we kind of learned some conflict management skills and just like talking about emotions and how those pile up and kind of like learning how to de. Escalate a situation instead of escalate it and have it blow out of control. We also started doing active counseling together as a couple and meeting with a counselor after that. But as we were going to this journey more and more, I was learning more and more about things that are not acceptable and where I needed to put my foot down a little firmer. And when it kind of spiraled, it was starting to spiral back or I even got a sense of it spiraling backwards. I tapped out. I'm done. Yeah, like, I'm not going back. I'm not going back there. That wasn't okay, I'm done. So that's when we. The ultimatum was given. I totally stepped out and back fully disengaged. And he needed to show me that he meant what he said. I needed to see his do. He had a desire, I knew in his heart what he wanted, but he had to do it and I needed to see it. And I couldn't help him anymore. I couldn't be that person because I wasn't strong enough to be that person anymore. And like you said earlier, you take on all this stuff that you were never supposed to take on before, and that was my moment of throwing it all off and saying, I'm not taking it on anymore.

I'm done for sure.

And I have to focus on my own healing. I have to focus on my own relationships with Jesus and that healing and what that looks like for me and Sia. Hope it goes good for you over there. Talk to me sometime. But I'm not here for that.

Just to highlight some of what you said that I think so crucial for any betrayed spouse in this process, you had your feelings validated, you found your voice, you learned to create some healthy guardrails or boundaries, and then you began to pursue healing for yourself. I mean, that's like a four step thing. That's for every betrayed spouse they had to go through. So really appreciate the way you articulated that. What about for you, Brandon? What did some of those early steps that were different from before that looked like for you?

Yeah, so she mentioned that we went to counseling. I had fought counseling for a long time. You know, she had started going to counseling before that point, before the ultimatum, because she was just, she was emotionally drained and she couldn't help me because she was dealing with the emotional trauma and the betrayal trauma and all that work, all that comes with that. So, you know, one of the, one of the first steps was I signed up for counseling. You know, I realized that I needed. This is, this is where I think it's so important that vulnerability enters the picture. Like until we hit a point of being willing to be vulnerable and just lay it all out, nothing's really going to change, in my opinion. At least that's what I saw in my life. So I finally laid down the pride and was willing to get vulnerable and be humble enough to go into counseling and just start talking through things. And what I realized is that a lot of what I was struggling with was just coming from wounds in my past, from my family of origin and growing up and not Having needs met and not having parents that were actively engaged. Again, it's not to say that I'm not trying to throw them under the bus, but the needs that I had in the developmental stages, that I needed them just weren't being met. And so I had to work through a lot of that. The other thing is, I got serious about using Covenant Eyes. So I had had it on my phone while we were going through our big struggle, but I hadn't really committed to it. You know, I had a good. I had a good ally who was willing to check in, but I wasn't willing to do the work.

Yeah.

So I found a new accountability partner who was willing to challenge me. And I just dove all in and said that I am willing to do it, which is so important. Accountability. You know, it's fine to have a really great accountability partner or ally, but if you yourself are not willing to do that work, it's not going to work. And so I had to come to that recognition that I had to be willing to do the work. And then I just. You know, we focused on, you know, one of the things that we learned in this marriage intensive was called dialogue. And it's just writing letters to one another and sharing our feelings and just being open and vulnerable. I had done so much to push her away that I had to be willing to do whatever it took to get her back. And that meant sharing everything inside. And while she wasn't wanting to be the police, I would update her on how things were going, you know, as I continued to move away from the pornography. Because I wanted to be completely transparent with her.

Yeah.

You know, I gave her access to my phone and. And everything that I could give her access to so that there was transparency there. And I just really made it a point to try to be selfless because I had spent so much time being selfish.

Yeah. Yeah. What I'm hearing there is just, like, vulnerability and allowing people into your story and into your struggle and into your wounds as you talked about the trauma that we experience. And obviously, our parents were just doing the best they could with what they had. You know, we don't blame them for our addiction, but because of the brokenness that we experience, then we go to things like pornography to meet those needs. And pornography is always there. It never turns you down. It always shows up for you. That's why so many people get into it. But then also talking about, you know, I just think of the support that you have with that counselor and that ally that you had, like, people who are willing to challenge you. And, you know, I personally am in therapy now, and my therapist said that counseling and therapy is really just someone helping you put language to your experience. And that's just what you need. You need someone, a group of people or an expert or therapist around you who can help you do that, because once you start making sense of your own story, that's where things really start to take off.

Yeah. I don't really know why there's such a stigma around counseling or even how that developed in my head, but somehow it was there. And, you know, when I left that first session of going on my own, I was so relieved that I could finally get that out.

Yep.

And, you know, having the community. The nice part about that marriage intensive is it's an ongoing community, you know, where we continue to work on our marriage and grow and get together every month. And so we stay very involved in that. And what's. What's great is, like, you can walk into the room with a group of people who have been through hardships in their marriage, and you just. You know, like, you can just look at them, and you guys just know that you're there.

Yeah.

And there's some of our closest friends because we can literally call them up on our worst days and say, we need you.

Yeah, absolutely. So, I mean, looking back, and this is cool. I don't know if we've asked this question very much on the podcast, but looking back, where do you see those moments where now you see so clearly how God showed up? You know what I mean? Like, you look back at your story and those pillar moments that show up, what were those for you guys?

Oh, wow. For me, God was showing up all the time in so many little ways. There was times where I would be like, I'm done. I'm quit. You know, and. And God was like, no, I need you to stay. I need you to stay. But. But, you know, I'll give you the strength. I'll give you this tool over here. I'll help you over here. And so, I mean, for me, God had to show up every day.

Yeah.

And then. And in the big ways he showed up were. Honestly, when the police showed up, I sent a prayer up for whoever it was who called them just out of pure gratitude. I was like, thank you. Thank you. There's humanity out there. They saw somebody in need, and they called. Anyway, so that, to me, was a God moment. That person showing up for me there, the God moment in retrovi. That whole weekend was just God being super active in the now. Counselor. Because eventually I did end up coming, going to counseling with Brandon later. But then, I mean, just the months, the weeks, the months, the years that we've been working on this, so many God moments and just blow me away moments. Even when we worked on restored vows, like there was like God taking it to a whole new level of healing and putting his hands on that, because that was mind blowing. Just working on this, on the project with Brandon was just, it was crazy. Crazy. Filled with grace, but crazy.

That's awesome.

Yeah. I would say for me there's a really good, you know, in the gospel where Jesus comes walking on the water and Peter says, lord, if it's you, tell me to come to you. Right. And he gets out and he focuses on the winds and the waves and he begins to sink. You know, for me, that ultimatum was a huge God moment. That God let me fall into the water in order to reach down and say, okay, are you going to let me help you now? And so that was really great. Like she said, you know, the marriage intensive was, was really good. The cops showing up was, was a wake up call to get moving in the right direction. Yeah. And you know, just having my friends and having those people around us who we can turn to has been so big because, you know, when we first started that healing journey, we've been on the healing journey now for almost four years. You know, we would be calling our good friend, you know, in the middle of the night sometimes, like, we can't do this. We're done. Like we're just, we're at each other's throats and like, this isn't going anywhere. And he would stay on the phone with us as long as he could. And that to me, it was just Christ exemplified through him in being willing to do whatever it took and just having those moments like that of Christ coming to us in the people that he put around us who, I mean, we could have never, I would have never imagined that we could have such good friendships with the people that we have friendships with now. Really, it made a huge difference.

Yeah.

Yeah. It's amazing the way that we can see the love of Christ communicated to us through friends, through a Christian brother or sister that we know God forgives us. But if a Christian brother or sister speaks that over us because it's relational and it's actually experiential, it lands differently. And I think your story is just a testament to what many people have found is when we really get open, we get vulnerable, we get honest, we humble ourselves and let go of the pride that actually invites other people in. And it's not only inviting other people in in a way, it's really inviting God in in a deeper way. Because when we open the doors to other people, to his people, we're opening the door to his love in a way that most people, we don't realize we've actually been closed off. When we close off to others, we close off to God. When we open up to others, we open up to God. And I just, I think that's a beautiful part of your story. So one of the questions we get, Brandon, at like, events or what we hear from people, and I'm sure for you, working at Covenant Eyes is something you've wrestled with. What do you do when someone kind of has that attitude, maybe a little casual, towards their porn use, where they're like, ah, you know, I'll get accountability software on my phone. That's all I need. I'm good to go. How do you encourage someone to see that accountability software as valuable and helpful? It is absolutely is not the same as working on recovery and having a plan. How do you, as someone who works for Covenant Eyes, but has a much deeper story of recovery, how do you work with that person to help them see they're going to need to do more than just get the software or the program on their phone?

Yeah, it really depends on the person. But honestly, I've found that sharing my own story has made a huge difference. Because you can argue all you want with facts and science and your sources and whatever, even though they're really solid, but it's tough to argue with a person who's been in the muck. Right. And so I just share my story of, hey, man, if you are struggling, you got to break free. Because I really, I don't want to see you at one of these intensives as we're presenting. Right. And you're on the other side because your marriage is falling apart or your life is falling apart. So, you know, and really just recognizing that it takes the do for so long. I said so many right things, you know, but I never followed through. And so if I'm talking to a guy, it's like, yeah, this is really great, but if you're not committed to this, then you could have the best tools and the best resources, but they're not going to do anything. And I also encourage them that ultimately the only way you're going to be able to break free is to be able to surrender it to Christ. Because without God, I would not be here talking to you guys today, as we were going through the healing, I had a deep conversion of heart myself. And so I think just those few things of you got to be committed. Just sharing my own story of struggle because, I mean, there are some really hard moments, and I'm not afraid to share them because I want to be able to use this story that God has allowed us to go through to be able to help so many others. So it's. Yeah. And sometimes, you know, as I'm visiting with them, it really turns a light on, and sometimes it doesn't. And I just. When they walk away, I just say a prayer for them because again, I've been there. Sometimes it takes those rock bottom moments before we wake up. But, yeah, I'm gonna do everything I can with the life that I've been given and the experiences I've been given to be able to help others.

Well, and with that too, what's cool is like, you talked about, you know, needing someone who. We talked about it already in the episode. We need someone who's competent, who has, like, something to offer us in that moment. And whether that person walks away, you know, excited about stepping into recovery or not, you have positioned yourself because of your story as someone who now is competent and safe that they can come back to. And I've seen that. I mean, I've had those where someone kind of blows me off and it's like, okay, that's fine. You know, like. But I'm still sharing my story and position myself there. And I mean, sometimes you think someone's coming back and then they don't. You're like, okay, well, I guess I was wrong on that one. But the people you don't expect to sometimes come around too, where they're like, hey, remember that conversation we had a year ago or six months ago? I want to re. Engage. Can we talk about that? So that's what's so cool, is that. And that's what I like about Restored Vows is you guys are putting your story out there for so many people that you're positioning yourself as competent and gracious and understanding people that can help others on this journey.

Yeah. And I think, you know, the big thing with Restored Vows is just we're an ordinary couple who. God just opened an amazing door for us to be able to share our story. And that's really what it comes down to is we're just. We're willing to share our story because we don't want others to have to go through what we've gone through.

Absolutely.

And some will travel that way. But then if that's the path that they take, we just want them to know that they're not alone. There's lots of couples who struggle. I mean, in this program that we've been involved with, we're now the community leaders for it. You know, we see couples who are going to church who, by all appearances would be considered good Christians. Right. You would never know. And yet then they end up on one of those intensive weekends. And, you know, they're there for a reason. And so we just don't know how many others are out there struggling who have this facade of being a good Christian. Not that they're not striving or not, you know, a good Christian, you know, in having a relationship. But just because we have a relationship with Jesus doesn't mean we don't struggle along the way.

Yeah. Or get stuck, for sure. So what does. And this is what's. I love this question. What does marriage look like now? Like, what is family? You've got this baby. Right. Like, what does it look like now, today? How are things different? Look at it. The smiles already. You know what I mean? This is great.

I mean, it's completely different.

This is.

We. We. More, more, more. So now have the marriage I thought we had when we were first married.

So cool.

Definitely. Yeah. So much more on the same page. So much more joy, so much more happiness. Just on a whole different level. Honestly, I just. There's no way to explain it. And when we talk to couples that are. That are back where we were part of this, like, just hold on, hold on. It's hard and it's going to get harder, but. But then it gets better.

Yep.

And then it gets better, and we're more to that better end of things now that we still don't. We still have our little tiffs and our little fights, and we're strong personalities, and. But they. They last so short. So short. And they just don't happen very often anymore. And we are so much more in a better position to work through them. And more tools.

Yeah.

And we can hold each other accountable to those tools. And we do.

Yeah. We just. We really love marriage. We love the idea of being married and walking with each other and having that shared goal of getting to heaven together. You know, it's. It's something that, you know, we can. We can look back and say, honestly, it was all worth it. Like, to be at the point where we were at. Yeah, it was painful, and there were many nights of tears and lots of other things. But to Be where we're at and where God allowed us to come to from that experience is just. I mean, I'm still drawn to tears at points in prayer of how good he is, how he never abandons us, he never forgets us. And, you know, like I said at the beginning, you know, part of our story is six years of infertility, and that fell, like, right in the middle of that. Right. So every time I fell, I was spilling seed on the ground that could have potentially led to a child. And to be able to have the gift of a child is. It just blows me away. I just. I love staring into her eyes and. And just seeing her smile and spending time together with a family, because I can honestly, I can look both my wife and my daughter in the eyes and know that I'm fighting for them every day and wanting to be the best husband and father that I can be. And, you know, just making sure that I'm not falling into traps. You know, just obviously, I've been clean from pornography now for three and a half years, but I remain on guard. Right. I learned my lesson the first time around with that 19 months. And so I just make sure that I'm not getting too attached to my phone, make sure we put our phone away and not on the computer a lot. We made the decision in our house to not have TV because it just becomes a stumbling block sometimes. And so, I don't know, just going what we've gone through, we really just love that intentional time that we can have with one another. And from what I hear, kids grow up so quickly. So I really just. I don't want to miss a minute with Isabella. I don't want to miss a minute with Tonya and the marriage that we have now, because it's only going to get better. Like, God is only going to continue to bless us as we continue to strive towards him and bring our family together with him as well.

Well, and we know you guys want to really see other couples find this same hope and a healing journey, and that's why you were involved with the Restored Vows course and did a great job with that. So talk a little bit more for our listeners. How could they check out the Restored Vows course and have access to hearing more of your story and taking some of those steps themselves, whether they're in the front end of their story, maybe experiencing some of the rock bottom, or maybe they're in a place like you are being several years into a better place, but just wanting to make sure they're not being susceptible to Being prideful and then falling back. So how could they connect with you on the restored Vows course?

Yeah, so really easy. They can just text the word vows V, O W.W. s to 66866. So vows to 66866. And that'll get them enrolled. They'll enter their email address once they text that, and it'll send them the emails each day for 14 days. And the great part about Covenant Dies and what I really love about this series is that we offer it completely free, you know, and I just really love that because like I said before, our story is not unique, but we love that we have been given the opportunity to share it, and we share it every chance we get. So, you know, even if, I would say, even if a couple isn't struggling, it's important to be able to go through that because we probably know a couple who is struggling, or we may, at some point, God may put a couple in our lives who is struggling and to have that resource available. So, yeah, if they just do the text to join, that's the easiest way. They'll get those daily emails and really just be connected with our story on a deeper level and the opportunity to talk. I think a lot of problems that we've seen just in our own struggle and working with couples is that we're just not really good at communication. And a lot of our problems could be worked through if we knew how to open up and share feelings and share what we're struggling with, get the help we need. And that's really what we do in Restored Vows is we invite them to start those conversations, to get the help that they need and just be willing to do the work. I mean, that's really what it comes down to. We're only here today because we're willing to do the work. And like Tonya said, yeah, it's hard. It may even get harder when you start the healing journey, because I think something that's not really talked about a lot but should be given a lot of attention, is that there's an evil one out there who wants the destruction of our marriage, who wants the destruction of our lives. And just because we decide that we're going to start healing doesn't mean he's like, oh, shoot, well, I guess I've lost them. I'll move on to the next couple. It doesn't work like that. So, you know, just. Just being willing to do the work and go through the 14 days in the daily videos, they're not longer than, you know, five, seven minutes. And I Think, you know, just in the couples that we've seen go through and we've gotten some feedback before, there's a lot of lives that are being touched by. By it. So, you know, thanks be to God that we have this opportunity to share with your listeners as well. Yeah, that. That, yeah, it's our story, but it's ultimately a recognition of God's grace, does amazing things and can bring great healing and renewal.

Absolutely. So, again, to make sure, you just text vows to 6, 6V, O W S to 66866, and you can get the restored vows course. Brandon, Tonya, you guys are great. We are so thankful that you're willing to not only come on our show and share your story, which is, you know, like, I know that you're restored, but it's not like, it's always fun to talk about how you had that crappy season in your marriage.

And, you know, like, it's funny because.

Even watching you guys physically, like, when we asked you, what's life different now? Like. Like, we're kind of hunched over, we're kind of talking, then it's just, like, smiles and everyone's good. Like, it's not an easy thing to do. But we appreciate that not only you've been with us today doing that, but that you put this course out to really help people know they're not alone. So thank you so much for the course and for your time with us today.

Yeah, thanks, guys. We really appreciate the time.

Yeah, thank you.

And wherever you're at on your journey, pure desire is here to help create a roadmap for your healing. If you or someone you know is impacted by sexual brokenness or betrayal trauma, go to PureDesire.org and let's start the healing journey today. Don't forget to subscribe to the podcast. Each week we put out new content to help you on the road to healing and freedom. And lastly, never stop being healthy.