256 - 7 Tips As You Begin Recovery From Addiction

You're listening to the Pure Desire Podcast, your safe place to find hope, healing, and freedom from sexual addiction, betrayal, and relationship issues. What is up, people? I'm your host, Trevor Windsor, and you're listening to episode 256 of the Pure Desire podcast. You're joining me, as always, is my co host, Nick Stumbo.

Did I do that? Oh, did oh, did I do that?

Honestly, just like coworker to coworker, if you could do that voice more often, my days would be more enjoyable.

I'll try to help you out that way, Trev. Yeah.

Oh, dude, I'm blanking right now. I'm blanking.

Well, the character is Urkel.

Thank you.

Okay. And I'm blanking on sitcom Family Matters. Was it Family Matters? Because I always thought the sitcom name didn't have enough to it. You know, the name Urkel was so great and his character was so great and the sitcom title was like, blah, you know, whatever, whatever. But he was definitely the character that stands out with his high waisted pants and his thick rimmed glasses and just the problems that would happen. And that would be his iconic line, which then got repeated in a comedy that's out there right now, I think, called Thunder Force with the female comedian. I'm blanking her name. Have you seen Thunder Force? No. She brings up the joke, which reminded me of it, and I thought that would be a good podcast intro.

Okay, good. I like it. Okay, so I'm interested to see how you tie it in because we had Ashley Jamison, our associate director of women's groups, to talk through, really, seven tips that we've laid out for someone who's starting the recovery from addiction journey.

Yeah. You know, and in that sitcom, Urkel was really a static character, meaning he did not change. It was his character that created the laughs and he continued to create problems and just was kind of oblivious, socially bumbling through life. And I think in recovery, there's a danger of that, that we can be the same person just trying to change a behavior or do things a little differently. And what we found is just that doesn't work. We've really got to be a dynamic character, meaning that there's change happening throughout our life and that the ways we've responded to things in the past, we learn to respond differently, we learn to think differently. And that really is, as this episode brings up, I think, so. Well, it's a process. And so we don't want to be the same Urkel 10 years from now that we were 10 years ago. And this is what recovery is all about. And so I think if people are on that recovery journey, whether you're in year one right now, you're on the front end, or maybe you're in year 8, 10, 12, I think these are just good foundational principles to ask the question, am I still engaging in this way? And obviously, if we're in that first year of really thinking through, okay, how can I grow in these areas? Because these really are pretty essential tips for everyone's recovery journey. Male, female, whatever your struggle has been. These are. These are some big keys.

Yeah, absolutely. Well, before we get to these seven tips, we got a good episode, for sure, but a few things. Subscribe to the podcast on all the major platforms and give us a review. It helps other people find us. Also, follow us on social media, Facebook, Twitter, and Instagramureduredesirepdmi. And this episode, full episode, will be up on YouTube. Just search pure Desire Ministries, and then Nick. In the spirit of really starting this recovery journey, one resource that we do have that really gets people going in the right direction is our sexual integrity 101 course.

Yeah, we can't say enough about the impact that Sexual Integrity 101 is having for churches, for communities. You know, when we're in the recovery sphere, it maybe feels like, man, this is just what everybody needs. And everybody knows these things, right? But the truth is, so many people, even in the church, are really blind to what's going on with sexual struggles and sexual addiction. And that's the aim, really, of Sexual Integrity 101 is to help men and women, pastors and leaders understand, through a biblical lens, the nature of our struggle, how it can get so deeply ingrained into people's patterns, and why it can be so hard to change. Because the truth is, I think so many of us, we've heard the right sermons, we know the right verses, we've prayed the right prayers, we've gone forward at the right events. And then when we're still stuck, it's like, what is going on? And not only are we asking that, our families are asking that question, and those that are aware of the struggle are all feeling like, what is happening here? And I think in so many ways, Sexual Integrity 101 answers those questions for the struggler, for spouses, and for those that want to lead their communities towards greater health. And so the great thing is, it's manageable content to be done in a video series for eight weeks. And we just think it's a great starting point for anyone who wants to lean into this journey more Fully.

Absolutely. So you can get the digital course on our website, DVDs, or a church kit. And those are all available@puredesire.org 101. All right, here's our time with Ashley Jamison talking through seven tips as you begin the recovery journey from sexual addiction. Ashley Jamison, welcome back. Thanks for being with us.

I'm glad to be here. Thank you.

I believed you. I believed you that you're happy to be here. That's exciting.

You look happy to be here.

You do. You do look happy. Happy is good.

Very happy.

Okay, so as we all start the recovery journey, we know it's not easy. All three of us have been on this journey. It's uncomfortable, nerve wracking, and then in some weird ways, kind of exciting at the same time. There's this new, fresh healing that we're experiencing, this traction we're experiencing. And so today, for the episode, we just wanted to walk through seven tips on really, the front end as you're starting this recovery journey, what it looks like some seven tips that will help you get the most out of this healing process. And we do some of these. We've had. You know, I've learned that lists are really popular. People like lists like seven tips. Ooh, sign me up, I'll do that. So we are gonna do this one and then the next episode will be seven tips on the front end of healing from betrayal.

You know, truth be told, I used to stay up just so I could watch David Letterman's top 10. Like, I didn't care about his monologue, his guests, like. But the list, give me a list and I'm in. So hopefully, listeners, you're in for this list.

That's it. That's right. And it'll be roundtable today. Ashley will be like, hey, the third tip is this one. So it's gonna be great. Let's start with the first one. The first tip on starting the recovery from addiction journey is give yourself time. Let's talk about that.

Yeah, this is an important one because I think when we've been struggling, we really wanna see change or freedom as an event, like a moment in time where I was struggling and now I'm free. I. I had a problem and then I went forward in an altar. I got prayed over and I got better. I. I had a struggle. I confessed to someone. It all got out there and it was over. And we've maybe even been conditioned for that. If we grew up in a Christian home, that, that sometimes has been presented as a way that change happens. And I think change can happen that way. There are obviously many stories out there of miraculous healings, people that encountered God in a fresh, new way, people that when they came to faith, they say something just changed in their life. But as we've heard countless stories from men and women, for whatever reason, it seems to be very, very uncommon in this area, because as we'll talk about in the episode, change is a process. Change of your brain, change of your patterns, change of those physical neural pathways in your brain that have to be rewired. And that takes time. And so that's why if you give yourself time and have that mindset that says this would be more like a process and a journey and not an event, I really think you'll set yourself up a better journey. Because the truth is you may encounter some change of behavior right away if you enter into this process. But the journey of actually being transformed, of renewing the mind, even from a secular level, we know brain science says that takes time. And so we just want to recognize there may be things deeper in me that are longer standing than I realize. And while we'd love it if it just kind of a snap your fingers moment could happen, it's probably going to be a process. There will be ups and downs, highs and lows, and if we just have that deep breath, grace for myself that I'm going to give myself time, then it really can be a very, very powerful journey.

Absolutely.

Yeah. I always think about. And listeners can go dig out the podcast and try to find it. When Trevor gives the example of the walking toddler that God doesn't just shame us for falling because he understands it's a process and he's, you know, we're working toward, you know, walking. But I definitely was that teenage love sex addict with an eating disorder. And then I'd hear, I went to a church that was like, had those nights where it was like, before Jesus and then after Jesus, and it was testimony night. And I always just felt so much shame. So if I could have heard that message way back when, that just because I'm in progress doesn't mean that I'm, you know, a terrible sinner that's going to go to hell and never recover. Because every time I would feel that shame again, then it would set me back. And I'm like, I just. I just can't do it. So, I mean, I just say, like, commit to the whole process and give yourself just space and grace to say, I want to see what happens if I just dive all in for this 10 months and do every tool and. And use everything I'm learning and allow God to work in me. Just give yourself space, even if you fall a few times along the way.

Yeah, I think of it for me, just practically in my life, because what we know is that how long we've been in an addiction or unhealthy sexual behavior, sexual brokenness is that that changes our brain. And so you're changing it negatively over time. And it's developing these really unhealthy habits and ways that you function and you think. And for me, like, I think of it almost like. So I had a weight loss journey where over six months, I lost a bunch of weight. And what's funny, if you look back after college, like my eating habits, I was doing all these things where I was gaining weight and gaining weight and gaining weight to the point where I was almost £300. And when I decided to change my eating and I wanted that transformation and that change, it wasn't like I changed my diet. And the next day it was like, oh my Gosh, I've lost £75. This is incredible. Wow. Like, you're having to undo a lot of that work and redo some work on yourself. And so for me, I think of it in that way. That transformation takes time and it takes those daily decisions that ultimately create a trajectory. Because now for me, I completely eat differently. I don't eat the way that I used to. So my life has changed. And so it takes time to really turn that corner from the unhealth that we've had and head toward health. It's going to take a while.

Well, that's a good point to remember. There may be a moment or an event where we decide to change. We decide to go all in. We decide to go after our healing, we decide to get honest. We decide to sign up for the counselor or the group. That can happen in a moment. But then the journey is really where change is at. And it's also an area where I think we get confused in some of our biblical language between eternal realities and the current process of sanctification. Because in the current realities, we are set free from sin and death. We are delivered from the old nature, and those things will be eternally true through Christ. But there's a whole lot of other language in the New Testament that then talks about, so get rid of and remove yourself and make these changes and be transformed. And the two kind of can feel like they're intention because, like, well, wait, am I free or I'm not? It's like well, yes, you are eternally free from sin and for all eternity, we'll celebrate that. But the consequences of sin in your current situation, the way it's impacted your brain and the patterns and the relationships around you, that will be a process.

Absolutely.

So, yeah, great. The second tip is to commit to a group experience. And so if someone's been battling this on their own, like I'm just going to do it by myself, this might be a tough one. So, Ashley, why is that such an important tip, to commit to a group experience?

Yeah, I think, you know, in some way it kind of does line up with just your like what you were talking about. This would be like group baptism. I'm going public with my, you know, my, my commitment to change. People know, I have accountability people. I'm fully committing. It gives you something to be part of because we're weaker on our own and there's lots of scripture to back that up. There's lots of, you know, psychology back there that we are just stronger when we're together and we have people that are like minded and they can help pull us forward. And so committing to the group experience is that marker that I'm going to do this. I'm going to commit to the full group start to finish. Which is nice about having something that starts and finishes and has structure. Because for people who are in addiction, it doesn't have to be overwhelming. You're just going to enter into the process and do what has been proven to work for hundreds and thousands of people and you're going to fully commit to it. So I would say make sure that you have the time, look at your schedule and if you need to clear something, a volunteer opportunity that you're doing or I even have people in my group that have requested a couple hours off work and their bosses have been gracious to them and done that. So look at your schedule to make sure that you've given yourself the time. I would say if your group is smaller or people are missing, still commit to that to keep that momentum each week that you are fully in using all the tools and committing to the process. Because once you start skipping or saying, oh, I don't need that or I think I'm done, that's when addiction can start to creep back in. I remember when John was halfway in the group and he's like, I think I'm good. I don't think I need this anymore. I'd much rather give the time to my family than to be gone once. And I was like, oh, no, no, no, it's like you do not get to stop grouping.

That's cute, John. That's cute.

That's cute. But no, we're gonn fully to this group process. So, yeah, I would just say make sure that you start an end on time, do all your homework, clear your schedule, whatever you have to do, just give yourself that 10 months to try it. And then if you still need extra help after that, you know that you've put your full effort into the group experience and now maybe you need something different to try.

Yeah, I think of. I think his name is Johann Hari, the author and speaker who says that the opposite of addiction is not sobriety, it's connection. And in his TED Talk, he talked about how they did this experiment on, I think it was rats or it was mice. And they played this out, this addiction scenario. And when they had community around them, that's where they started to see change in these animals. And the same thing is true if you think about what's motivating our behavior. It's wounds that we've experienced in relationship, the effects of sin on our life. And for us, just running away from that is why we ended up in addiction. And so continuing to run away from relationship actually does. Doesn't make it any better. I think practically we've all experienced that if you've been struggling with unwanted sexual behavior for any amount of time, you've tried things to stop. Like, if you don't want to do it, you've tried things on your own and they haven't worked. And so I think of that line again, and I messed it up last time and you helped me, Nick. But the idea of, like, the idea of trying the same thing over and over again and expecting the same result is you're called a what?

Or it's the definition of insanity.

Insanity. Thank you. But I think that that's true. So I think that if you lean in and understand how integral connection with other people is to your recovery journey, and you understand that it's something that actually fuels your health, then you start to see it different just because it's so opposite of addiction.

Yeah, well, and we've talked about the concept too, of blind spots. That the reason it's called a blind spot is because you can't see it. And if you don't think you have any, that's probably evidence that you have blind spots.

Exactly.

Because you can't see them. And so when we're battling on our own, we're going to be stuck in the same patterns because of those blind Spots. We're tripped up by lies. We're believing false ideas. We have patterns that we've not been able to see. And in a group environment, we hear other people tell their story, and we're like, oh, wow, that's me. Or we tell our story out loud. And I can't even begin to say how many times this happened to me that I would start to tell a story out loud. And it's like, oh, wow. I've never seen before a lie that I believe or an excuse that I'm making or a justification. And we've just been so locked in these patterns, we really can't see it alone. And so a group provides that safe, healthy context of others to expose, to turn the mirror on us and help us see things that otherwise we're not going to see. And then add to that that shame thrives in secrecy. And so even if I'm working on recovery in secrecy or isolation, shame is still going to thrive. Because when I'm not doing recovery perfectly, and no one does, by the way, when I'm not doing recovery perfectly, that shame voice just keeps saying, yeah, see, you don't have what it takes. You can't do this. And shame will perpetuate behavior. And so that's why a group environment is so crucial to expose those things to the light and to healthy relationships that then creates the connection that leads to real freedom and change.

Absolutely.

Yeah. Because we're always. I mean, we're learning to do life in a different way, and we're always going to have things that pull us, you know, to the left or to the right. And, you know, the hope is that you get to be part of a group and learn how to let people walk with you through your dark struggles and know all of your weaknesses. So that then when I say, hey, Heather, I'm starting to have addictive thinking, I can feel my brain, like, cycling in a compulsive way. And I. And that's an indicator to me, and it's really cool to be able to see that you can start identifying things so early and that you've already developed the skills to let people in right away so that you don't have to start straying into some of these addictive patterns. So I just. Yeah, group, Group. Group is so good. Okay, the third tip is expect speed bumps. What do we mean by that?

Okay, so, I mean, I feel like Ashley already kind of took it when she referenced it, but that idea of learning to walk, I mean, I think of so many times we've heard this, that sexual addiction, sexual brokenness, can be used as a crutch to make. To make it through life. And so when, and I think of our time with Dr. Craig Cashewell, like, when you go to help someone who's been using a crutch their whole life, you don't just kick the crutch out from them, from under them and be like, figure it out. Okay, good luck, see you later. You know, But I think that there's part of that too, that if you've gotten hurt and you've had to use a crutch and you start doing physical therapy, it takes time to get your legs back. It takes time for you to figure out how to walk and how to manage life and how to maneuver throughout the day in a healthy way. And I think the same thing's true when it comes to addiction. You need to understand that it's gonna take you time, as we've already mentioned, to get your recovery legs, so to speak. Like, it'll take you time to figure out how to do this journey and walk in a healthy way. And I think of this illustration all the time to what Ashley was talking about earlier. When my sons were learning how to walk, they fell a lot. And that doesn't mean that we're encouraging, yeah, go out and relapse and just make that happen. That's just, oh, well, we'll just dismiss that as a part of recovery. No, but that does mean that you are gonna stumble a little bit and you're gonna see, oh, you know what? I didn't think about this aspect of my family of origin or this context that I, that I'm in every single day at work and how that impacts my recovery. And so the idea of like a toddler learning how to walk, it's the same thing. We're learning how to walk and do life in a new way. I think there needs to be some grace that we give ourselves in that scenario that expect there's gonna be speed bumps and stumbles and you figuring it out. Cause you've never lived life this way before.

Yeah, yeah. And that's one of the areas where pure desire groups do differ from like a 12 step group in how we talk about relapse and we say a relapse doesn't have to happen. That's not a part of everyone's journey. But for many people, as they learn and grow, there might be a relapse. And we don't see that as a restart. You know, it's not back. Okay, day zero. Got to start Counting again and you know, do I have to give back my 30 day coin? I don't know how that works. But instead to see it as a relapse may actually be part of your recovery story. Because in a relapse you begin to see very accurately old patterns, maybe something we hadn't identified. And also how we respond to the relapse becomes different. Where in the past we maybe tried to bury it, ignore it, act like it didn't happen, or kind of do that private confession closet of, okay, I got it out to God and tearfully said how sorry I was and he forgave me, okay, now I'm going to go try harder not to fail again. And if we've been stuck in that instead, looking at a relapse as something that I can analyze what happened, have a deeper understanding of the preconditions, the things that set me up for it, and then the response to the relapse, being able to take it to a group or if I've committed to sharing that with my spouse as part of our recovery action plan, and being open and honest and taking appropriate steps to deal with what I've done by some, maybe natural consequences of learning to face some pain that this matters. I don't want to keep doing this. And so I choose to enter into some consequences that make me feel the weight of what I've done. Well, that is all very, very different than what happened in our past relapses. And I said that to so many guys in group of like, look at the steps you're taking, look at how you're dealing with this differently. And I know it might feel like you're back at square one. You've done the very thing that you're in group to not do again and committed to not doing. And you feel shame, you feel stupid, you feel like you've just violated all those commitments you've made. But on the other hand, I'll point them towards the positive. Say you're talking to me right now, you're sharing honestly what happened in the past. Would you have done that? You're committing to go and talk to your spouse, you're committed to this recovery plan. These are all things you wouldn't have done in the past. And your brain is actually going to learn and grow because of that. And so whether it's a relapse or, you know, for a lot of others, it may just be, hey, as I've dealt with one behavior, I may be getting the pornography or the lust or the relationships or the chat rooms you know, whatever was my thing. As that is being dealt with effectively, we might find other things that start to surface. And at first we might feel like, oh, my goodness, what's wrong with me? There's just more. And yeah, but the truth is we were probably using the pornography or the chat rooms or the relationships to cover up for a lot of other things. And as we deal with one, it is exposing just other areas that we've been running to. And not to see that as, oh, what's wrong with me? But more of, okay, this is just another layer of the onion, another part of my recovery that God's going to direct me into. And I would really encourage you as the listener. If you're in that kind of mode, it can feel defeating of like, what else? What more? And so I would just want to encourage you with hope of like, there will be an end to these. There will be a day where you're like, wow, as I'm dealing with this one, there's not more under the surface. I'm getting the layers where it's now about my old patterns, the lies, I believe, and not yet another behavior or yet another place that I'm tempted to stumble. So keep addressing them as they come up with God, with your group, with others around you, and really believe that this is just part of that process. It's why it takes time. Because it's never just one behavior. It's a system of how you've learned to do life. And as you pull one behavior out of the system, other parts of the system are going to become more obvious. And that's what we're saying here. Just expect speed bumps, expect challenges, expect hurdles, but keep facing them with God and with others, and you will get to a much better place.

Yeah. It's funny as you say that I was thinking about addiction. We're running away from the hurdles we're experiencing in life. And when we start recovery, we're just turning around. It's like, oh, yeah, those hurdles, the ones I was running away from, and.

We'Re bang our knee, we're going to kick a few over. If you watch a junior high hurdle race, it's almost calming.

It's a lot like recovery, but it's.

Painful because, oh, ah. Oh, that bruise. Ooh. But they're getting over them. But keep going, keep going. And by high school, some of those kids are like, wow, they ran that hundred yard hurdle race faster than I could run with no hurdles. That's pretty amazing.

That's awesome. Okay, so the fourth tip, as we Move in, we're moving forward here. Is plan for pain like dumb, dumb, dumb. What do we mean?

Plan for pain?

What do we mean?

Yeah, I'm happy to take this hard one because this is one of the hard questions I get from spouses, especially on the spouse end, because being the betrayed spouse before is they don't want to hear that there's going to be relapses involved. They don't want to hear that it's going to get harder before it gets better. And sometimes the hard answer is it just hurts or it's something that has a consequence. That is something we have to face. A relapse or speed bump during recovery, that is not to minimize this or anything, but porn or masturbation could have different consequences than one that is illegal behavior or an affair. Just the level of addiction that you're involved in and the relapses and the recovery, it's all going to look different. And so in general, just plan that like Trevor said that, you know, the medic, the medication has been taken away and now there's things underneath and about, you know, a few months in, once you've gained some sobriety, you're going to realize there's still pain there because you're now trying to manage all of your woundedness and all of your stress in life without your normal crutch. And so it can be very painful. And I remember in our early Recovery talking to Dr. Ted about that saying like, we never, you know, we never cussed at each other. We never threw things at each other. I threw things, but not at him. Not that that's okay. But we never threw anything at each other. We never cussed. We never, you know, we were not this level of like angry and crazy. And Dr. Tez was like, this is perfectly normal. Because you're right at that four or five month faith where you've given up ways of medicating. Even me on the betrayal side, I've given up unhealthy responses to his relapses. And so now it's like instead of binge eating or shopping or drinking or whatever I would have done in the past, I'm, I'm having to deal with my emotions of his relapse. And, and before I learned those skills, I was just angry. Like I'm mad at you, so I'm going to throw this purse at you or I'm going to do this. And, and that gave us a lot of hope and an ability to keep going forward because if you don't know to expect to deal with pain, then it's really easy to say, why are we doing this stupid group? We were better off before. Now we're worse than we were before, and you really aren't. You're just letting all of that dredge come up to the surface so you can get rid of it, and you gotta learn new tools.

Yeah. Yeah. We just had Brandon and Tonya Clark on from Covenant Eyes, and he made that comment like, it's a good thing Tony is not better at baseball, because I probably would be really, really sore. So that. That year, first year of recovery, and we're not advocating throwing things, trying to make light of any kind of spousal abuse. We know in some situations, unless you.

Throw 95, like, go talk to a major league team, see what can happen.

But, yeah, that may be a serious issue for some, but. But just recognizing, like, I think in recovery, many couples look back, go, man, things happen there that we'd never done before in terms of expressing emotion and anger. And I remember in my first year of recovery, the times that I kind of had a homework night that I'd really set aside time to work on my lesson. And, man, as I was getting towards that time, I would just feel myself getting angry. And I'm like, what is wrong? And as I processed that with my wife and my group, it was realizing I'm having to go into these lessons and face stuff that I know is there, and I've never really dealt with or faced very well. And so it's. It's just knowing, like, there's gonna be a lot of emotion, and I don't like it. And a part of me wanted to just use anger to, like, power up and control it or run away from it, and just had to keep working through that. And I think that's a reality for many people. You know, it's. It's kind of like if you have a. Have ever had a bad sliver, a deep one, that every time it touches something, you're feeling a little bit of pain. But, you know, eventually it's gotta come out. Like, you've gotta go deal with it, and when that happens, there's gonna be a lot of pain for a little bit of time because you're getting it out of there. But, you know, like, if I will go through this, it will get better. And that's a little bit what, like, recovery and group is like, you can just keep having the little bit of pain from relapse, and it keeps coming up and. Or you can face the deeper pain of getting it out of there. And it will be probably worse and more intense for a time so that it can get better.

I. It's probably just because of the season we're in, but I keep thinking of my youngest, Brooks. You know, we're at the phase now where he's not allowed to have his binky throughout the day, just at nap time and at long nap time is what my kids call it. Long nap is sleeping at night. But it's that idea of he uses his binky to soothe himself when he's uncomfortable or there is pain, or he's unsure or he's insecure. That adds safety and security. And for so many of us, that's what our addiction was, is it was something to soothe ourselves. And, you know, obviously that has way different consequences than a binky does. But over time, Brooks is gonna. He's learning and developing that he isn't always gonna have that. And so I think that that means he's gonna have to feel those feelings and he's gonna have to feel that pain and not have that to soothe him. And so I just think of it that way with our addiction, that we are gonna feel those things that we haven't, as you guys have already said. But that imagery just helps me think through it. Cause that's something that we all use to soothe.

Totally. So the fifth tip, and we're kind of alluding to this, but to speak more directly, it's not just about pain and anger in general. We wanna feel your feelings, Ashley. Feel your feelings.

Well, we can't really deal with anything until we know what's driving it. And I know that for John and I, when we started on this journey, we both would, you know, we would understand anger. I'm angry, I'm sad. You know, just basic feelings. But we never really stopped to consider what was driving our feelings. And so, you know, allowing yourself to go deep and figure out the thought that's behind the feeling, figure out where that's coming from, figuring out if there's a lie attached to it, those things are going to help in your recovery so much. So instead of me running around all crazy before, you know, I entered into recovery, I would just always be running really high and speeding up and anxiety. And part of my childhood story is I wasn't really allowed to express my feelings because every time I did, they were diminished. They were, you know, medically explained away, like, oh, you're just hormonal or whatever. And so I learned that expressing your feelings wasn't safe at a really early age. And then I just shut that part of myself off. And so going into group and saying, why do I feel like this? Why do I feel so anxious that I need to medicate myself to get rid of this anxiety? Or, why do I feel so much pain and I can't handle it in a normal way? And so I really had to start just like, very elementary of, okay, I'm feeling something in my body. What is it? What did I just think? What just happened? Who just called me? What did I just experience? And then as I was able to trace it back, and you guys have heard my story of, like, feeling angry whenever I would see my twins, and then being able to trace it back, that, wow, I'm feeling this anger when I see them. Why would I feel anger when I see them? They've done nothing wrong. And I was able to just continue to trace it back to realize, you know, like, they were just the visual trigger of some really bad abuse that I experienced in my previous marriage. And then I was able to start thinking in a different way and practicing responding in a different way. So you really have to get a hold of your feelings and allow yourself to feel them so you can change them. And with my women, I will say, you know, put your feelings in a box if you need to, and allow yourself just baby steps to pull it down for group or pull it down for homework like you did Nick. But give yourself. I always say, treat yourself, and I'll send them the little, like Donna off Parks and Rec, you know, treat yourself. I'll send them the little gif. I'll say, treat yourself before and afterwards. You know, put a candle on, get a warm drink, like, give yourself space, Let yourself feel those feelings, whether it's homework or group, and then know that afterward you put that box away. Especially if you're somebody who continues to be traumatized by it, or maybe we'll go into relapse or are vulnerable that you put that box away and then you go do something really healthy, like if you like exercising, you want to hang out with friends, and then slowly you're going to get more comfortable letting those feelings out. And you won't have to have these moments during the week where you allow yourself. So it's a progress of allowing yourself to learn what it feels like to be with those feelings.

Absolutely. And I think for a lot of us in I know this is my experience, I've heard a lot from people, too, who grew up in the church that we're told, or at least it's implied, that our Emotions are bad or they're wrong or they're things that we shouldn't focus on or pay attention to. You know, I had a mentor when I was in college who said to me, you say I feel a lot. Stop saying that. Say, I think. And for me, I remember where we were. I remember the beer I had in my hand as we were drinking it. Like, I remember that moment, and it seared so deeply into my brain, because what I was being taught at that moment is that emotions are bad, and emotions are not bad. Because if they were bad, why would God literally create us with the ability to feel them?

Like, it's built in Jesus, too.

Yeah, right, exactly.

Weeping.

Yeah, absolutely. And it's like. And even before Jesus, like, walked the earth, though, theologically, you talk about him being in the garden, whatever. Like, God had those emotions as well. He experienced it all throughout the Old Testament as well. And so I think that's something that a lot of us run up against when we think about this idea of feeling our feelings. But the best way I've heard it described, at least for me, the way that I like to think of it, is that our emotions are icons that show up on our dashboard. They should inform us that something is going on under the surface. It doesn't mean that I need to, like, quit my job or lose that friendship or stop doing this activity. But it is just something that, as that emotion, Ashley, as you said, is coming up, or you're feeling it somewhere in your body, that it should just be something that you're curious about and you start to explore because there's something going on under the surface. And usually those are things that are important to dive into.

Yeah, Yeah. I think what we want to look at with there. I said, I think maybe I should say I feel. I feel that what we should look at is how often anger is a masking emotion. Anger is about covering up something else I'm feeling. And so anytime we're getting angry, like I was doing my workbook lessons, I should ask the question, what is this anger covering over? And for a lot of men in particular, I think those two primary emotions they're covering over are fear and grief, because men aren't supposed to be afraid, and men aren't supposed to cry or be sad, because that's not. In whatever way we've defined manliness. Like, men are confident. Men are, you know, able to do anything. And so we use anger rather than acknowledging, I'm afraid or I feel grief. And I. I think that's what happened for Me a lot, especially in the first year or two of recovery, was realizing how many places I just needed to let myself go back and grieve and be okay with, you know, for me, being a performer and wanting to win and be the best. And a three on the Enneagram. You know, I had huge ideals, like in high school, of college, of being the all state athlete.

Yeah.

And the truth was, I wasn't. And so I internalized a message of I'm not good enough. And I needed to face that I'm not good enough message. But at the same time, I needed to grieve some realities, that I wasn't good enough in basketball or football to be all state. But that didn't mean that had anything to do with my character worth or value. But to grieve, like, I wasn't all state. I wasn't the athlete I dreamed of being. And just to grieve that so that I could get to a place of acceptance. Like, you know what? It's okay. Not everyone in the world has to be, you know, the star of the team. And if I wasn't and if I don't grieve that, what instead was happening is I was just taking the anger from not being good enough in that one area and then putting into the next, like, well, I'll prove it. I'll do better next time. I'll be the better, you know, the better pastor or student or whatever, because it just fueled the need to perform. And if I wasn't willing to look behind the anger to see the fear and grief that I was masking, that I hadn't been good enough, I would just keep perpetuating performance into the next thing until my dying day, still trying to prove that, gosh darn it, I'm good enough. And so I think for me, it was that place of saying, I can grieve that I wasn't good enough in that sport, but that I am good enough as a man for God and others, and that the two are not connected. So you've got to get behind the anger and say, what am I masking here?

Well, and I think, to Ashley's point, we hear that a lot growing up. Like, you think of those moments where, you know, I can think of moments where I may, you know, at a baseball game, I struck out three times, which is just terrible. It's the worst feeling in baseball. Like, if anybody out there knows it's just the hat trick. Like, it's not good. And maybe I'm feeling sad in that moment or my Coach, my parents, someone is just like, oh, you'll get them next time. And what they're trying to do is they're there, they don't want me to get caught and stuck in that emotion. And by trying to, like, help me, what they end up doing is like saying, no, no, dismiss how you're feeling. It doesn't really matter. Like, it's okay. And so I think a lot of us were taught, whether people intended to or not, that we're not supposed to feel our emotions. And so I think in this tip, specifically, if you're early on in your recovery journey, find those places, find those spots, those lies that you were taught about your emotions and really press into that and figure out, is what I was being told in that moment actually true? Because when it comes to feelings, I'm just gonna say it. I don't think Christians, we handle it super well. I don't think that we're innately great at this. And so go and find those, because I think that that's going to be helpful in your story.

Yeah, I've definitely been guilty of saying to my 12 year old and my Kairis, stop being dramatic. You're being dramatic. You're always being, you know, okay, I need to quit saying those things because their feelings are real, they're very high right now.

Absolutely.

Yeah. Well, and some of those like to go along with what you said. Some of the things we learn or don't learn, you know, that are okay, is going back. Well, we'll hear things like, leave the past in the past. You don't need to go dig up old business, you know, just forgive and forget, move on. That's been taking care of Jesus. We don't need to go dig it up. So why do we want people then to not be afraid to go to the past and look at things like family of origin and woundedness that they might have.

Yeah. So the sixth tip, don't be afraid to look back. So I think this is just what comes to mind right now in the moment, is you look at like the garden and when God came to Adam and he's like, no, no, no, it's the woman you gave me. Like, it wasn't me, it was her, you know, and then she was like, no, no, no, it was the serpent. Like, it wasn't me. We have this tendency to do that, I think, as humans, to blame shift. And I think that, that there's a fear that we have of if we identify how someone else has hurt us in our family that were somehow blame Shifting or saying, well, it's Mommy and Daddy's fault because they were mean to me and they yelled at me and blah, blah, blah. Like, when we say, look back, that's not what we mean. Like now. I mean, I've heard Nick say this a lot is like, were you raised by Jesus? No. You weren't. You were raised by your parents. Were your parents perfect? No. Okay, cool. So they're sinful and they raised you, which means that you experience sin and brokenness in your upbringing, and it's okay to point to those moments and identify how they hurt us, how they wounded us, and then how we reacted in health or unhealth to those things. And that's where addiction really is fueled, is looking back at, you know. And I've told this story recently to a number I can't remember. I feel like I've talked about it on the podcast recently. But I make this unbelievable catch in baseball at 13 years old, and then I hear the message from the parents in the stand that I'm a ball hog, which isn't true, and I will die on this hill. You cannot be a ball hog in baseball. There, I said it again. Okay. But in that moment, I feel like.

There'S still some trauma you're working through there.

I'm fine. I'm fine.

Is that why you keep bringing this story up on the podcast?

I don't want to talk about my feelings.

We've been talking about that in my friend group, that if you say fine twice, you're okay. But if you say fine, it's almost like a negative times a negative is a positive, but the third one makes it negative again. It's like, I'm fine, I'm fine, I'm fine. But I think for me, what I was taught in that moment is, I'll never be good enough. And looking back, you can see that pattern. Throughout my addiction, you can see that there were moments where there were moments where I didn't feel good enough or I experienced failure. And for me, I ran to those sexual relationships or to pornography to soothe myself, to find fulfillment or pleasure somehow to get away from those negative feelings. And so for me, looking back on my story, when I identify that that was a really wounding moment for me. It's not saying that Brent Holbrooke's mom is the reason why my addiction, like, why I was an addict, you know, it wasn't. But that was a pillar moment where I was taught something or internalized the message that wasn't true. And so did that person do Something wrong in the moment. Sure, sure. And sometimes maybe it isn't something that someone did wrong, but just because I look back and identify that person or that moment as a part of what fueled my addiction, it doesn't mean that that person's responsible. But what that does is it helps me go back and identify those wrong messages so that I can change what I believe.

Yeah, yeah. It makes me think of that great quote by Gabor Matei that says trauma isn't what happened to you. Trauma is what happened inside of you. And that's why we need to go back to understand where did false messages come from? Where do I have core beliefs that are not rooted in Christ but are rooted in my pain? And I've even heard well intentioned Christians say there's no point in going back because Christ has redeemed our past. And I, I think they mean well. But that totally misses the boat that yes, Christ has redeemed the past sin, the set us free from that, but he doesn't magically erase everything that happened. Because the truth is we are today a byproduct, an outcome of everything that's happened in our past. And if we can't invite Christ to meet us in those past moments, we're not going to experience much freedom. It also makes me think of one of the theories of the atonement of like why Christ came. One of them actually centers around not just his death. And as Christians we get so focused on the death of Christ, but one of them is called the theory of recapitulation that talks about how Christ's life, the way that he lived a perfect sinless life, he was actually becoming the new Adam. Because along the way where Adam had made sinful choices, Christ made redemptive God honoring choices. And it was actually his sinless life that redeemed our broken past and the brokenness of our lives. And I just, I've always thought that's such a cool idea that not only does Christ's death kind of COVID over my death, but Christ's perfect life is laid over all the brokenness and pain of my life. And that's not to ignore it then, it's to give us freedom to look at how have I been shaped, how have I been formed? I think also of Jesus In John chapter 4 who says to the woman at the well, go and get your husband. And she's like, I have no husband. He's like, you know, you're right. The truth is you've had five husbands and the man you're living with now is not your husband. I see Jesus in that moment. He doesn't have to bring that up. And is he shaming her? That's not Christ. Jesus isn't there to shame her. I think it's an invitation to her to say, I know your past. I know you're wounding. I know what you've been through. And I need you to understand that the things I'm about to reveal to you about who I am come through that grid of knowing you completely. And I think that's so liberating for you and I if when we realize that when God speaks his love over us or his grace, it's not in this, like, perfect little moment where all he sees is Jesus. It's actually through the grid of him knowing all of my stuff and all of my pain. And when he says, I love you or my grace is for you, it's like, wow, now that means something because it's all of who I am, not just erasing the past. So there's so much value in going back. I just hope that people really can open their heart and mind to see maybe there's some invitation there that Christ has for me to go and understand his love in light of my past.

Yeah. So good.

Yeah, I was thinking too, like, I guess I'm really logical and working in the medical field for so many years, I think about, you know, I had this chronic illness for 23 years, and it got to a place where I thought I was going to have to quit work and maybe die. And when I went to this doctor, he's like, asking me about my symptoms from when I was 13 years old. He's trying to put a whole story together of how I got to this place. And, you know, and that's what I try to remind the women that come into my group that in no way are we trying to blame parents or things, you know, people around you. But everything we experience shaped us, I mean, to the environment we live in. It shows us what color we are or, you know, how tan we are. I mean, every area of our life shapes who we are and how we function and especially in relationships. And so, you know, I would hope that my kids have grace with me knowing, you know, your little attachment brain was developed by the time it was like 6 years old. And I was not at my healthiest. So I'm sorry for that. But I want to also be fully aware that my negative behaviors and positive behaviors shape who they are and how they attach to people and how they cope with wounds. And so, yeah, we just can't escape being touched by people that we do life with.

Yeah. And I think that there's just, as you guys are both talking, I'm just like, gosh, there's so many things even as a dad now that I can do. There's just really practical things I can do to help create a place inside of my house that I'm trying to limit as much damage as I can in that. So thanks for the dose of conviction. Moving on. Last and seventh tip, Wayne, on the recovery journey from addiction is to embrace the power of self care.

Yes, this is an important one because for I think addicts in particular, the ways we have learned to practice self care have been damaging, have been hurtful, whether it's pornography, alcohol, acting out in other ways that have created patterns of sin and shame and secrecy. And so it's kind of the great reversal of our struggle is to say, what will I do instead? What are things that in my life can bring me those feelings of peace, joy, connection, contentment? Because at the end of the day, at that base level, that's what my heart and mind are really looking for. We are wired for pleasure. We are wired to experience those dopamine hits. But the way God intended is that that dopamine would come from really healthy ways like being around people that encourage us, having fun experiences with our kids, making memories, going and exercising, going for a hike and seeing something beautiful. I mean, when you're standing looking at a waterfall or staring up at the stars in the sky, there are little amounts of dopamine that are going through your system. It's like, wow, this is amazing. And it's not negative in any way. It's what we need. And so it's just the question of in recovery, what will be my instead? You know, Paul says in Galatians 5, 13 that do not use your freedom as a cover up for evil. Instead use it to serve one another in love. And I would just ask the question for us as we're walking towards freedom, what will our instead be? So instead of numbing out with pornography, I will join a basketball league. Instead of numbing out in social media, I will play with my kids. I'll start a game club, I'll go to a book club. Like, whatever it is for everyone, it's different. And I don't think there's any. Like, we'll just do these three things and we'll talk a lot on the podcast about diet and exercise. And if those aren't all that important to you, that's Fine. But there's probably other things that are. Maybe it's a hunting club or shooting your gun, Whatever. The things are that just like, man, you love it. Plan it into your day, plan it into your week, Plan it into your routines. Because when we replace those healthy outlets of dopamine, it's not that we're not just going back to the old behavior, but we find we don't need it. And that's why we say so often, we're not here to change a behavior. We're here to change the way you do life. And it is self care, with the help of God and others that over the long haul, truly transforms your brain and your patterns.

Yeah, I always think of it like my visual image is a bowling alley with the little bumpers up that our self care is like. Self care bumper. Self care bumper. And so me knowing that I am going to St. Louis next week, and that means John's gonna be home with the kids for four days. I could already see he was getting, like, seasonal depressive disorder because we live in this area where it snowed 8 inches last week. And, you know, and I'm like, I'm starting to pick up the signs like, oh, this is gonna be very vulnerable to leave him home with the kids for four days. He might come back a month or. And so I asked him, I was like, how are you doing? He's like a little stressed, little tense. Cabin fever. I need to get out, you know. And so on Easter, I just said, go to the cabin and spend the night in the woods by yourself and just get some self care. And he came back such a different person. And then we said, and when I get back from St. Louis, go again. So it's like this bumper of. We know a hard. Like, we know a challenging week is coming up because he's going to have kids, Sports, activities, school, all of it. The cats, you know, so it was like, okay, we can. We can see that. And we've learned from our past behaviors that this is a vulnerable time. You know, it will be stressful. So get some help. Self care on the front end, and then let's plan it on the back end too. And. And he came back just looking like he was more ready to have the kids home for four days after being out there, you know, and chopping wood and doing whatever he was doing out there. So I like to buffer my hard times in life that I can see.

Yeah. I think of self care being the. We talk about the three circles tool, where the center circle is relapse. What we're trying to avoid, the middle circle, guard rails we put in place to protect us. And then the outer circle, the green circle, is stuff that we do to pursue health. Those instead things. But I think to your point, Ashley, that self care for me, the way I've started thinking about it is that it's something that improves my relationship with myself, with other people and with God. And so finding something that pushes me into better connection with myself, better connection with the Lord, better connection with other people. And so finding those things, like for me, journaling is a great way to connect with the Lord and with myself. I'm starting to experience my inner world and expressing it with the Lord. And then group is a place where I get to invite other people into that. So finding those things that are helpful and healthy for you, because I wrote down the same thing you were talking about, Nick, just that it's. Your addiction was self care. It was just in the wrong direction.

Yeah, yeah. And this is where, if you're in a group, that weekly commitment to change at the end is so crucial. I mean, it's, it's really a question about what will you do this week for self care? And I think early on in a group, you may be answering that commitment to change question often in the negative, like, well, this week I don't want to. I won't waste time on social media. I don't want to go back to pornography. I won't, you know, engage in that unhealthy relationship. And I think that's totally normal because we, we're more quickly to identify the things we need to remove. But as we're getting healthy, more often than not, your commitment to change should be some kind of proactive, like, here's what I will do. And just like you were saying, Ashley, I think that's what helped me, is it taught me to look ahead versus always living in the moment to say what in this coming week will be my danger zones. When am I going to be alone, stressed out, overtired, overworked? Because that's the reality of life. We're going to have busy seasons, we're going to have hard times. And if we've thought ahead of time how to deal proactively with, I'm gonna pursue a guy's night out where we go and shoot pool for a couple of hours. Cause I just know how that will refuel me or I'm gonna take extra time to go for a hike or to get out with my spouse and have a date night when we're proactive about self care, then we're already managing the potential risk or threat of those trigger areas or places where we're likely to be tempted. And when we're doing that week in and week out through that commitment to change, it's really transformational.

Yeah, absolutely. Well, I think listener, just know that these are not like the seven foundational things to recovery, but these are just seven tips that as we reflected, we realized that these are things that are helpful as you're starting that journey. Just know that, you know, if you can check all these boxes, it's not like a perfect formula for recovery, but these are things that, you know, maybe to use Ashley's language, those are. These are those bumper things that help you reorient and realign to the direction that you want to go in recovery. And yeah, we hope that these seven tips were helpful.

Yeah. Things we wish we would have known at the start of our journey.

100%. 100%. Go see a movie. You know, young Trev, who's starting recovery. Go see a movie alone every month. It's good for you, that kind of thing. Because I wish I would have done that more often. Anyways, that's enough about me. Ashley, thank you so much for your time with us today and just helping us out with this conversation.

Yeah, thanks for having me.

And wherever you're at on your journey, Pure Desire is here to help create a road map for your healing. If you or someone you know is impacted by sexual brokenness or betrayal trauma, go to PureDesire.org and let's start the healing journey today. Don't forget to subscribe to the podcast. Each week we put out new content to help you on the road to healing and freedom. And lastly, never stop being healthy.