257 - 7 Tips As You Begin Healing From Betrayal

You're listening to the Pure Desire podcast, your safe place to find hope, healing, and freedom from sexual addiction, betrayal, and relationship issues. Hello. Hello. I am your host, Trevor Windsor, and you're listening to episode 257 of the Pure Desire podcast. You're joining me, as always, is my co host, who's already being weird, Nick Stumbo.

Let's take a little trip to Flavortown.

Is that from something or are you just making it up?

I feel like this is a well known phrase associated with a certain public figure.

Flavortown.

Flavortown.

I'm looking at Justin.

Where do you go? Flavortown. Do you know?

No, we got nothing.

That is, I believe, the current highest paid celebrity chef. Guy Fieri. That's what he's known for, is Flavortown.

Flavortown. I thought he was known for his, like, frosted tips.

Yeah, well, that too.

Okay, that's fair. Shout out John Thompson, My former senior pastor, when I was on staff, looked like Guy Fieri. Hair, frosted tips, the whole thing. Did he cook like him? Absolutely not.

That's too bad. But have been a nice perk.

Shout out John Thompson. All right, so we had Heather Cole, our content manager and speaker on today to really, it's kind of part two of last week's episode. Last week we focused on seven tips for people recovering from addiction as they start that journey. And this week we're looking at seven tips for people who are just starting the healing journey from betrayal trauma.

Yeah. And for those that are on that front side, this can be hard, confusing. Why do I have to do this? I didn't choose this. I don't want this. And so we really wanted to have an episode just of encouragement, like, you're not alone and you can do this. And I think Heather brought tons of great content. So looking forward to having you hear that. And you know, I was thinking about Guy Fieri. By the way, my wife and I have been watching the Tournament of Champions. It's like one of our favorites. Now you got 32 chefs. They whittled it all the way down to a champion. Really engaging. But what I find remarkable about Guy Fieri and this is the tie in, he is a celebrity chef who never cooks. He goes on guys grocery games. He's the host. He goes around and does his diners, drive ins and dives. He never cooks. He hosts Tournament of Champions. He's a celebrity host who calls himself a chef. I don't think I've ever seen him cook. Maybe in his early days he does, but I was thinking of that when it comes to recovery, it can feel like, well, this is. Recovery is all about the struggling spouse. It's all about the addict. And churches can put that emphasis on it. And in some ways, it can leave the betrayed spouse, like the chef who never gets to cook and like, what's my role in this? And I think there's a huge encouragement here for us to say your recovery matters, too. You being in the kitchen and getting involved in unearthing. What do I do with this grief? What do I do with this pain? What do I do with this lack of trust? And you don't just have to stand around watching other people do it and act like you're okay. It's okay not to be okay. And if you're in pain, hurt, wounded, confused, recovery is a game that you're invited to be fully engaged in. And for some spouses, they may be the one getting into that game while their struggling or addicted spouse is still making poor choices. And so we just. We want to. We want to support that journey and give these tips that I think will really help both women who've been betrayed and men who've been betrayed really engage in their healing journey.

Absolutely. Before we get to today's episode, a few things. Subscribe to the podcast. We're on all the major platforms, and if you give us a review, I'm just telling you, it truly does. It helps people find the podcast, and the more people find the podcast, start to find healing and recovery. I'm just saying, no pressure. Second, you can follow us on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagramuredesirepdmi. And this full episode is up on YouTube now. Just search Pure Desire Ministries. Then, Nick, we circle back often, just reminding people that they have an opportunity to join the Pure Desire team and really push the message of healing and recovery forward by being a member of what we call Team 58.

Yeah. One of the things I think Dr. Ted Roberts so deeply instilled in our group's material and in many of us that heard him speak or went through group or counseling with him, was the concept of paying it forward. And paying it forward isn't just a nice social kind of construct about, well, if you've been blessed, pay a blessing forward. But it's this recognition that if I've experienced healing and freedom and recovery in an area that, let's be honest, a vast majority of the world and even the Christian world has not experienced, there is, I think, a holy responsibility where we want to partner with God and say, how can I help pay forward the healing that I'm finding into a world that is still so stuck in darkness. And what we hear all the time, people who would say, I had no idea that Pure Desire existed. I had no idea that help was available. And when you jump in and be a part of team 58, you are paying forward your healing to say, I want the world to know that help, healing, and freedom through Jesus Christ is available and that Pure Desire is a resource people can turn to. And so Team 58 is just our group that has said, we're in. We're in on that. And. And we would value your participation. We do some fun things with the team to connect with them and kind of build that team spirit that we're in this together. And so we'd love to have you join us.

Yeah. So if you want to join Team 58, go to PureDesire.org give. All right, here's our time with Heather Kolb talking through seven tips on beginning the healing journey from betrayal trauma. Heather, welcome back to the Pure Desire podcast.

Thank you. So happy to be here.

Yeah, we just. The episode before this, we explored seven tips on when someone is starting their recovery journey from addiction. And we thought we need to do it for also the betrayed side. Because Pure Desire, we help both spouses throughout the situation. And when crisis and sexual betrayal happens, these spouses are thrown into trauma like everything is in crisis. The thought of really pursuing their own healing, we hear this often just seems silly, like, I didn't cause this. Why do I need to pursue my healing? But over time, you know, they realize that healing does actually need to take place, that they've experienced something that has hurt them personally, and that healing is beneficial for them just personally, even if the marriage doesn't continue, that they need that healing as well. And so wanted to explore seven tips to help spouses, not just women, but men and women who've experienced sexual betrayal as they're starting that healing from the betrayal, what seven tips we'd give to them. So.

And we talked about how much people like lists. Yeah. So, Heather, do you like lists?

I love lists.

Let's check things off top 10.

Yes.

You're the right guest for today.

And because you've experienced this before, too, we're going to lean on your expertise more in this area, as Nick and I have not experienced this. So the first tip is give yourself time. So when thinking through the process of healing from betrayal on the early end or the front end of that process, why is give yourself time a tip?

So this is an interesting concept because I think that a Lot of people. And I'm going to speak from a women's perspective only because that's what I can resonate with. But. And not to exclude any men who've experienced betrayal. Yeah. But when it. When discovery or disclosure happens, a lot of people interpret that. That, okay, this is the beginning of my journey. And I was reading this one book that said, you know what? Really, you're stepping into the middle of something. Because one of the things that is very common for a betrayed partner is that once that happens, you're gonna go through all of those years that you've been with this person, and you're gonna need to go back, back in time to discover or really understand, okay, was this an issue? Is my whole entire relationship with this person a lie? What can I trust? You know, all of these different things. And so instead of saying that, okay, I'm stepping into this right now, and this is the beginning point, I think that it's helpful to think that I'm stepping into the middle of something that's gonna require me to go backwards at some point in order to go forward. And I think, too, that a lot of times at a conference, this happens a lot at conferences, that I'll have a woman come up to me and say, you know, he's doing so well. He's been in group. This is his second year in group. It's been more than four years. I should be over this. And I think that we have a tendency to think, okay, we should be doing better than we're doing. But I think that that can be just as harmful into, I don't know, maybe not giving ourselves enough grace or compassion to say, I'm gonna go through this as long as it takes me to go through this. And if it takes me five years or 10 years or, you know, whatever it looks like to not necessarily set a time, but to give yourself time to process through and find treatment for whatever it is that you need treatment for. Does that make sense? Yeah.

I think we've talked a lot about how this really, the grief cycle applies here. And it's a significant loss that for the betrayed spouse. Feeling like, I've lost the marriage I thought I had, it may feel like the death of a marriage, the death of a relationship, and obviously sometimes there is. The relationship does end. And so if you think about it in terms of, like, grieving the loss of a loved one, we have a lot more grace for that. Expect that they'll feel that loss for a long, long time, and things in some regard will never be the same, because that person is gone. And so for the betrayed spouse, the marriage they thought they had is forever gone. And we do believe with help and recovery in groups, they can have an even better marriage in the future. So that can happen for couples. But if we think about the weight of it, like the loss of a loved one at the one year anniversary, they remember all over again and some of that grief comes back and there are things they'll find that remind them of the grief and they're back in it. And I think if we view that the betrayed spouse may be going through some of that same kind of process, we can have more grace for it. And certainly if, if we are the betrayed spouse and we're getting into years two, three and four and really feel stuck in some areas and we're not getting a counselor to help walk us through it, we're not meeting with the group. I think we do need to look at ourselves and go, do I need some help? Because I'm stuck. But not in a shaming way, but just in a. I think the reality of we are designed to have a full, thriving life. And if we're really living in pain years down the road without seeking help, it's almost like we've resigned ourselves to a half life. And so I think that's our encouragement of like, yes, continue to pursue the help, but give yourself grace. That it, it's, it's a long process. And if we're on the struggler side, you know what I learned the hard way, we have to be the ones that offer that grace. And not looking at our spouse going, well, I'm doing so well. Why aren't you? Because the journey we're on is very, very different. My journey was one of recovering from a behavior, learning new pathways. And that's not the same journey as my wife who was working through hurt, pain, loss and betrayal. And so our timelines were different. And I think that's what I'd say. If you're listening to this podcast and good on you, if you're the struggling spouse, is just to remember it's a different journey for the betrayed spouse. And if, and if you're in different places, that's totally normal. It's not like you did something wrong that well, I'm doing well and my wife is really struggling or vice versa. No, that's really normal that you're excited about your recovery and change and they're stuck in pain and grief and loss. And if you can just take a deep breath and go, oh, this is kind of how it goes, then you might have more grace to help your partner in the journey they're on.

Yeah, I think of it a little bit like physical therapy after an accident. Like, you know, the betrayed spouse is the passenger and the struggling spouse is the driver. And then there's this big crash where both people get hurt and. Or. And I mean, it could be different hurt on either side, but ultimately, if that person ever wants to maybe walk again or function fully again, they have to go through that healing process. And I often think about physical therapy isn't, you just take a pill and you're better, or they do one surgery and you're okay. It's like, maybe you do have some of those things that are part of the story, but it always takes time for your body to recoup and to heal. And I think the same thing's true for a betrayed spouse in this situation.

You know, I think in that we've used that crash metaphor quite a bit, but it may be even more accurate to describe it as there was a crash and the driver walked away pretty fine, where the passenger who had no control over the car or maybe didn't make the mistake that caused the accident is the one with significant pain to walk through. And that's maybe more accurate for what's happening in recovery. The spouse who made all the bad decisions and is now in group and getting encouragement from guy, like, they're walking away looking unscathed. And that can actually make it worse for the passenger, for the spouse who's like, we've heard this from spouses. Like, why are you so happy? Or why are you shut up. Don't you realize the pain I'm in?

Yeah, exactly.

If we can maybe even see that perspective of, I drove the car, I caused the accident, and I got out pretty, pretty pain free, but my passenger didn't. That empathy of I was a part of causing this. And so how can I lean in and help in the recovery process?

Absolutely.

Yeah. So the second tip, if you are on the front end of your recovery and betrayal, Is to recognize that you're not alone and you can't do it alone. What do we mean by that, Heather?

And I think that this is probably. This is a huge challenge for women in the church, especially, because I remember being in that same place where feeling like, okay, I can't say anything. I can't say anything that would be negative or could be potentially slanderous about my husband, and yet I don't know what to do with this. And so I had to just Internalize all of it and, and just kind of try and figure it out on my own, which was not helpful in any way because I ended up drinking too much and having an eating disorder and all of these things that were trying to help me survive in this environment instead of having somebody else who could, even if it was just one person at the time who I could talk about or talk with about what was going on, that would have been super helpful. And so I think that this is one of the greatest, greatest parts of being in group or even being in counseling. And it's interesting because. And I've been through a few betrayal and beyond groups, but there's always a point where somebody comes to group and they say, I didn't like this lesson. I found it confusing. I found it frustrating. I didn't even want to come to group today. But I came because I knew that I would hear something, that I would, you know, that in this safe place with this support here, that I would hear something or we could talk about something that would help me to figure this out, that would help me to understand what it is that I'm feeling and why this is so annoying to me or why I can't figure it out. And so I think that that is one of the greatest aspects of recognizing that in a safe place, you know, in a group where you have like minded people who are going through the same experience, but you're going through it together, I think can be such a great way to start your healing journey. Just because we don't know what we don't know and we don't know that there's help out there or even what that help could look like for us if we're trying to navigate this on our own.

When you think about, like hearing the words me too means a lot. And I know culturally that has some connotations differently today, but in this context, when you're sharing about your experience of betrayal, trauma, you're experiencing the pain and even the like, I feel crazy. I can't make sense of my life. You know, to your point earlier, having to completely reinterpret all of the history of this relationship now. And I feel like I have no idea which way's up, which way's down. And for someone to sit there and say, yes, me too, that unlocks a lot of things. I mean, I've had that experience in recovery when someone, when I share a really deep, dark part of my story or something I have a ton of shame over or a big wound, and someone goes, yeah, me too. That always means so much in that moment. And you can't get that moment if you're trying to do this alone. So I feel like that shared experience thing is so great. And I feel like for a betrayed spouse, one of the things that is so needed is to have someone say, you're not crazy like this. What you're experiencing because of what you've experienced is normal. The way that you feel is normal. This is okay to experience it this way, but then also with that, have the encouragement that it's also okay to take steps forward in healing, because that's what's best for you in the long run.

Yeah, it's where we want to keep in mind, too. The reverse of the stats are also true, that if 60 to 70% of men in the church are struggling with pornography or some kind of unwanted sexual behavior, the reverse is true, that 60 to 70% of women in those marriages are also struggling. I mean, 100% of the women in those marriages. But that means 60 to 70% of women in the church are going through this to some degree, whether they're currently aware of it or in the future are going to be made aware of it. And so statistically, we would want people to see you're not alone. You're actually in the majority if you're experiencing feelings of betrayal, hurt, woundedness because of your spouse's sexual choices. And the same is true for men, that if 25 to 30% of women have some kind of sexual dependency issue, inappropriate relationships, pornography, then those men, 25 to 30% of men in the church are dealing with issues of betrayal and loss, and why am I not enough? And why did she seek out someone else? And that's really underscores why we talk about the importance of churches having groups for both, because both sides of the stat are true. If you've got 60 to 70% of the men and you've heard that stat and you felt motivated, we got to help these men and start group and lead them towards freedom.

Great.

But look at every one of those marriages. If those are married guys, then all those women need group two. They need a place to hear just what you said, Trevor and Heather, you're not alone. You're not crazy. What you're going through happens to a lot of people. And that doesn't mean it's easy or painless just because a lot of people go through it. But it does give us some confidence that there are some paths that have been created to walk towards health that I can learn from and hear from others. And could really help me get out of that place where I feel like I can't tell anyone.

Yep. So give yourself time and recognize you're not alone. And really, what we're emphasizing is a group experience, a healing group experience for you. And then the third tip is to find your voice. Let's talk about that.

So I did not handle this one well.

You smiled quite a bit asking me.

About this one, because this one was really, for me personally, when I was in. Toward the end of my first marriage and I was in counseling, and I was feeling empowered and I was feeling entitled, and I didn't have the right words yet. And so I felt, though, empowered to say all of the things that I had never said in the past 15 years. And so. But it all came out as these, you know, fiery darts that were intended to hurt someone because I was hurting and hadn't made sense of my own story and didn't really have words to. I didn't understand what I was feeling. I didn't understand why I was feeling it, and I didn't understand how to articulate that in a way that would help me. And so it came out as that I want to hurt you, you know? And so that's why I say that I didn't handle it very well because it probably made things a lot worse. And I recognize that. And so I think that when it comes to finding our voice, that it has so much to do with us, knowing us and learning more. So for me, it was me learning about me, so it was me learning what I was feeling, why I was feeling it, and saying. And really trying to make sense of all of that so that I could say it in a way that helped me and didn't hurt the other person. And it really does come from this part of our healing that we begin to understand, why does this hurt me so much? What is it that I'm feeling? Do I feel rejected or invisible or used or all of those things? And then being able to say those things out loud helps you to feel empowered. It gives you that strength to say, I'm worth it enough to say what I'm feeling out loud in a way that is going to benefit me, not make things worse. And I think that. That really there's a delicate balance there. Right. Because we have a right to defend ourselves and to say things out loud. But if we're saying it in a way that is causing more damage and causing more harm, then it doesn't help anyone. And so, of course, when I had these experiences and I'D go back to my counselor and say, this is what happened and this is what I said, and he's such a blah, blah, blah, you know, and that kind of thing. And she would say, okay, well, let's work on that. Let's work on identifying what you're feeling and let's get you to a place where you can articulate that in a way that is not going to. Because even at the time, it makes me even more angry if I don't know what I'm saying and I don't know why I'm saying it just agitates it more. Exactly. Right. And so. But I think that it's an important piece to this process. I think it's so super important for a partner to be able to say what they're feeling, when they're feeling it. But it takes time and it takes practice and it takes way, way learning curve and even practicing with people in your group to say, this is what I want to say. And I want to say it in this safe place so I can fine tune it and get to a point where I can say it out loud to the person who needs to hear it.

Yeah.

So important. And I think that's where we remember the phrase that my response is my responsibility, that I may be in a lot of pain and very justified the amount of pain I'm in. But that doesn't excuse, you know, giving me permission just to have bad behavior back. How we respond in finding our voice does matter. But I remember when Michelle and I were in counseling and we're sitting with, you know, Dr. Ted and Diane, and Ted would be grilling me as he was very good at doing, and I'm answering questions about, you know, our relationship or the past events. And. And at some point, you know, inevitably Diane would break in and say, and Michelle, when that happened, how would it make you feel? And you know, it was really maybe the first time in a safe place like that, just outside of, you know, Michelle and I having the conversations that with other people, mature adults who understood the problem, understood what we were walking through, that she was validated to have someone look at her and say, and how is that making you feel? I know that was so helpful and empowering to her. And honestly, for me, very hard to hear. I would find myself kind of checking out. And that's something else. Dr. Ted would be so good. He'd be like, nick, where are you going? Come back. What are you feeling? And he would make me express that I feel so I feel shameful that I've done this. I've not, you know, I didn't realize or think through the impact and. But it was in that validation of my wife's voice and being able to share. This is how I experienced it. This is what was happening for me. And. And that. That was really being heard, and not only by me, but by other counselors that were going, yep, that's how this works. That's what you're feeling. That's totally normal. And back to what you were saying, Trevor, like, you're not crazy. Just the way that empowered her, like, I need to speak up. I need to be able to say what I'm feeling, what I'm experiencing. And that. That. Seeing that, that was actually helpful because, yes, initially it was hard to hear and felt. I felt ashamed of it, but it's what I needed to hear to be like, wow, this is. This is more than just me making bad choices to look at inappropriate things. This is like, this is my relationship. And having heard her voice, then I could really implement that to understand why certain boundaries were so important, why avoiding relapse was so important. Because without that, it was just easy to stay kind of stuck in the fog of my own denial and rationalization over the behaviors.

We didn't experience betrayal in our marriage, but I remember a time we had some family challenges, and Amy was going to counseling, and I remember her using that language like, I found my voice. I started to find my voice. And what I experienced was that she was realizing that she was a full participant in our marriage, and she was learning that she had the ability and the space to do that, and her voice and her perspective on things mattered. And I just remember how empowering that felt for her, that in this marriage, in this family, her voice is just as valuable as mine in a lot of these situations. You know, whether it's with maybe even honorable, you know, motivations, or it's just trying to appease and peacemake in a marriage. A lot of betrayed spouses end up not having, not. Not being, you know, people who are fully functioning in their marriage. Their role is not as elevated as their spouse. And so I just remember hearing that and thinking that that does apply to this situation, that as a betrayed spouse finds their voice, they realize they are also a mutually leveled participant in their marriage and that their perspective matters just as much.

Yeah, I think that's really true. And again, this is one of those processes that is gonna take time, but the more that I think that you're around healthy people who can show you what it looks like to find your voice in a healthy way and for it to be a productive tool. I think that that is so beneficial.

Yeah. So that leads us into the fourth tip. And we've alluded to this a couple of times mentioned it, but the fourth tip is to grieve your Heather. What do we mean by that?

Yeah, this is one that. So my first marriage, it ended in divorce, and it was a divorce that I wanted, and I saw it. And of course, I did not know that Pure Desire or anything like this existed at the time, but I remember it was probably about five years ago being at a conference and a Pure desire conference where Dr. Ted was also doing the weekend services. And so I was listening to him, and I don't even remember what he was talking about, but I just know that in that moment, I started crying. And I am not a big crier, but I felt that. I felt this grief and this loss for my first marriage, which then the left side of my brain is saying, well, this does not even make sense. You wanted that, and your life is great now. But still, I recognized that that was something that I hadn't done, that even when I went through counseling, that we really didn't cover any of that. And so that was the first time that I got into a betrayal and beyond group because I knew that there was something there that was still active, that was still showing up in my life, even though I thought that I was super healthy and whatever. But I think that it is important that we, in this process, that we grieve the loss. And for me, a lot of it was definitely grieving some of what I thought that marriage was and reprocessing some of that. But a lot of it was grieving that my kids would suffer the consequences for the decisions that I had made. You know what I mean? Because as a parent, that's huge. And so I had to. I mean, and it was helpful to go through that process again, because none of us get to go backwards in time. We can't do things over. But if it means that in order to. In taking the time to grieve this loss and grieve all the different aspects of what that means so that I can move forward in health and so I can then have a healthy relationship with my sons and I can help them when they are struggling with the fact that they have divorced parents and those kind of things, then I think that it's totally worth it every single time. But when it's. When we talk about grieving the loss, it's grieving Everything that's connected to what happened, everything that's connected to that relationship, everything that's connected to. Even if it still exists and you're moving forward together, what does that mean? What kind of things are never going to be part of your life because you're going to stay in that marriage? Do you know what I'm saying? And so there's a lot that's involved in that process of grieving, the losses.

My therapist said that grieving is just really identifying things, that this isn't the way it's supposed to be, that this is the way it's supposed to be. And what I experience is the opposite of that. And then even in that, pressing into how that makes us feel, the emotions that are tied to that. And I know for me, growing up, we talked about it last episode as well, that I was. In so many ways, what was reinforced is, don't feel your feelings. Don't feel your feelings. They'll lie to you, they'll mislead you, all that. But part of the grieving process is sitting in that. And so sometimes we get hypervigilant even with our own emotions. It's like, no, no, no, I can't feel that I have to run away or I have to problem solve or I have to fix my situation or whatever it may be. There are a lot of different ways we do this, but grieving is actually being able to sit in that space and in that emotion and experience the loss. Because at that point, when you're. And I'm sure whatever Ted was saying was amazing and super smart and great because that's who he is, but you were probably experiencing the reality of what was lost at that point, that this is not the way that God intended marriages to be and how they were intended to end, because they're not intended to end, you know, but just experiencing that and you sitting in that emotion is a part of the grieving process. And I can totally, again, I have not been a betrayed spouse. But I know that when you're grieving, there is a fear of, like, if I sit in this emotion, is it ever going to end? Is there ever going to be a moment where I get to the end of this and there's understanding or there's comfort or hope or anything, but understanding that grief is a cycle and is a process and sometimes it's cyclical and goes around and around, but understanding that feeling your emotions is actually the way toward that healing for so many of us.

Yeah, we need to make sure we have a healthy definition of Grief, because I think we may have grown up where grief was seen as weakness.

Totally.

And I think that's why a lot of people don't cry, because they associate crying with weakness or embarrassing and ask that question, well, why do I feel that way? Or we might think of grief as being irrational or just being too emotional. And if we grew up in homes, churches, environments where any kind of strong emotion was kind of repressed or viewed as strange, like, whoa, why are you being so emotional? That may be an internalized message of, if I'm feeling grief, I'm feeling weak, too emotional, something wrong versus if, in my mind, a healthy definition of grief is saying, something mattered. To me, something mattered. And feeling deep emotion about it is just my heart, soul, or brain communicating through tears or that emotion, this mattered. And now that it's changed or different or lost or gone, I'm just dealing with that feeling. It mattered. And that's not weakness or irrationality. That's the human experience. And as we also said in the last podcast, Jesus experienced deep grief. There's pictures of. Of God feeling grief over his people or over their betrayal. And so that speaks to me that we're wired that way by God, to feel things that matter and not have to be embarrassed by it, but just to recognize that this is my body, brain, heart, letting go of something that mattered in order that I might be able to embrace what God has for me next, whether it's the renewal of that marriage or in the case of a divorce, something else that may be coming down the road, or an invitation to. To engage more deeply with my kids. I mean, the grief kind of sets us up to build on a new foundation.

So, you know, as a part of this, and I realized this tip, there's the reason why we're going to say it this way. To give yourself permission to set boundaries for safety is because in so many areas of life, we are not given this permission. It's almost discouraged, you know, in so many ways. So the fifth tip is to give yourself permission to set boundaries for safety. Let's talk about that one.

Okay, so boundary work is. I think it's really hard work, but it's good work when you can figure it out and apply it to your own life. I know Debbie Flanagan. She talks a lot about boundary work and is really great at explaining what that looks like, but I think that it is so unique to your situation. So what I would think that I need to have in place a boundary that's going to make me feel safe is going to look different than somebody else who maybe is even staying in the relationship. That would be a totally different thing. But this is an example that I can think of that I applied in my relationship. So when I went through a divorce and we separated and divorced, I had my own house. But in order for me to feel safe in my own house, my ex husband couldn't come in my house. And this was just right at the beginning. And you know, God is so good. God is so good to work on us, you know, through this process. Because here was this person that I didn't like at all, but the father of my children. And so how was I going to help them to have relationship and yet stay safe at the same time? So for the first, I don't know how many months, he couldn't come in the house. And so then he came to visit the boys one day and it was 10 degrees outside. And I'm thinking, okay, that doesn't seem very nice to let him make him stand outside. And so then it was like, okay, your dad can come in, but he has to just stay in the entry. Which was like, don't touch the carpet. That's right, three by three space that he could come in the house. And so then it was like, okay, that one. And that stayed in place for a while. And usually I was in the other part of the house and so I still felt okay. But then over time, one of my sons would say, can I show dad the stuff I got for my birthday? Can he come to my room? And then it was like, okay, do I feel okay with that? Am I gonna give up some of that boundary that I have in place in order for my kid to have a relationship with their dad? And then over time it was, I just got a new game for my Xbox. Can dad come in and play Xbox with me for an hour? Can he come to my room? Yes. And again, I know I've said this, but today I have a great relationship with my ex husband. And I'm so thankful that we. I mean, they come to dinner for holidays and he's in my house all the time now. But it wasn't something that was an easy process and it took time. And I don't even know if I even told anybody about that boundary, but it was something that I had determined that for me to feel safe and he can't be in my house. And so again, whatever that looks like for you, for the person who's setting that boundary, I think the most important thing is to remember that boundaries. So boundaries are for me the boundaries that I put in place are for me so that I feel safe. They're not something that you do to somebody else. They're not somebody that you give them the boundary. You don't, you know what I mean?

It's not like a punishment to that person.

It isn't. It's something that I needed this to feel safe. And so even if a boundary, like for somebody else, a boundary might be that I don't feel safe, even if I'm going to stay in this marriage with my husband, I don't feel safe driving in a car with him alone. That I want, if we're going to go and do something together, I want to drive by myself so that if I start to feel uncomfortable or I feel triggered, then I can leave and I give myself permission to drive separately from him and then I can leave when I feel like I need to. Do you know what I'm saying? And I think another thing too, with boundaries, that's important and especially if you're going to stay in the relationship, that boundaries are really put in place that are going to help preserve the relationship. You know what I mean? They are really creating safety and security for you so that you can stay engaged in that relationship, but in a way that you feel safe doing.

And that's a good way to frame it where it's not a punishment, that it's something that I'm doing actually for the benefit of this relationship, whatever that relationship is. And again, maybe that relationship doesn't end up staying together, but you still were implementing this boundary for the benefit of that relationship at the time.

Right.

And for some spouses, it's okay if we take some time to redefine the word safe because I know many spouses and this was like, for Michelle and I, we see that word primarily about physical safety. And so it was like, well, and she would have said this, he's not physically abusive. I don't feel unsafe. Why do I need a safety plan, as we used to call it? And it was with the coaching of our counselors who helped us see that, oh, there's things that relate to our emotional well being and health, spiritual, emotional. And in many of those ways, I think my wife would have said, yes, I feel very unsafe if I know you've relapsed with pornography. I don't feel safe. You know, how you're using the computer or if you're sharing the bed with me that night or you're expecting me to be available to you. It's like, I don't Feel comfortable. So she might have used words like comfort, healthy in a good space, and that a lot of it would fall into safety. And so if you're that spouse of like, well, I've not been abused, there's still a lot of reason to think through when your spouse is acting out or if they're continuing to show behavior that makes you feel those same feelings again. That's where finding your voice came first in this list or before this one, that you need to find your voice to speak up and say, because of this pattern of you acting out on your phone, when I see you isolating and looking at your phone in a place no one else can see, I don't feel safe. And when that's happening, there may be some boundaries you put in place. So I would like to see your covenantized report. Even though we encourage that that's not a regular part of your accountability plan. But there may be things like that in terms of boundaries that you're recognizing. This pattern has existed in our relationship. And when I see you doing things that perpetuate the pattern, that's finding my voice and say, it makes me feel fear that you are doing that again or that you're hiding something from me. And so there may be boundaries that have nothing to do with your physical safety, but a lot to do with emotional, relational, or spiritual health. And if we can state ways and say that to our spouse, it helps them see. Oh, and that again, is my story of when Michelle would say that this makes me feel like you're going back to those old behaviors. It's like, oh, I hadn't even thought about it from that kind of point of view. So it may go far beyond physical safety, and we may need to redefine that word.

Yeah, I just really do think you have every right to care for yourself in this way. That's the only thought I really have toward this, that you have every right to care for yourself. And I use that word care intentionally, that this is something, as you've already mentioned, Heather, that you're doing for yourself. And I think that that's helpful to understand because I think that I know from the addict side that boundaries are often received as punishment. This is just punitive. You're just trying to hurt me or, you know, put me in my place or whatever. But if a betrayed spouse can really understand that this is something we're doing for the care of ourself in this situation, I think that that goes a long way.

And this is another reason why group is so helpful, because a Lot of times it just gives you that space to have the conversation with other people who have set boundaries for themselves and can help you figure out whether a boundary is punitive or it's healthy or all of those things.

Yeah. So good. So the sixth tip that we want to talk about is accept that you can't change them. Heather, talk about that reality.

Yeah.

Yeah.

This one, I think, is really hard for the betrayed partner. I think a lot of it is because it feels to us, it feels personal, and it feels like we should be able to do more than what we're doing to help them figure out what's going sideways in their world. And I think that one of the things that's super helpful is to just recognize that a lot of people who struggle with unwanted sexual behavior, they started this pattern of behavior when they were a kid. You know, that this is something that. Because of their brokenness and trauma, that they've been doing this a lot longer than they've even known you. And so. And all the people who've loved them in their life haven't been able to help them. And so it really isn't. It isn't our responsibility to fix them. I think that the best thing that we can do for the relationship is to find our own healing. And I know that that can be sometimes frustrating to a betrayed partner. Again, we talked about it, that I didn't do this. I didn't ask for any of this. I didn't create any of this. And yet I'm the one that now needs to find my own healing because of what you did. But I think that as we go through that healing process, it is going to spill over into the relationship, and it is going to spill over not only into our marriage, but. But into all of our relationships, because we're getting healthy for us, not for anybody else. But I think that it's hard for a spouse, and especially if you've been in a marriage for a lot of years, to feel like, okay, I can. If we just buckle arm, if we lock arms, if we do these different things, that we should be able to move forward together. And I think that's an unrealistic expectation.

Well, and in some marriages, we hear it, there will be pressure that's put on the spouse, especially if someone is still struggling, maybe not in group, not really. You know, they've said they're, sorry, I'll never do it again, but they'll say, you know, if you would just have sex with me more, do this when we're having sex, you know, Perform this act, whatever it is, they'll say, I think I would be doing better. And I think sometimes a struggler or an addict says that out of ignorance because they really believe it. They really think if. Well, if you would just do these things for me, then I wouldn't look for them in fantasy. But what they don't know and what you need to be aware of as the spouse is you. Even in a marriage, you can just be playing into their addictive behavior. You can just be the object fulfilling whatever unrealized need they have. And if they're putting that pressure on you, I think again, finding your voice, it's appropriate to stand in a boundaries and say, I'm not here to play into your unhealth, and I can't fix you by doing these things. And so that may involve some education for yourself of going through Sexual Integrity 101, encouraging your spouse to watch it, say, there's more going on on here than just your drive or your hormones that you're using me to try to meet something. And that's not my job. That's not what a mutually satisfying intimate marriage relationship is supposed to be about. So if you're the one applying pressure, you need to stop. You need to realize they're not the solution to your problems. And if you're the spouse feeling that pressure, you really need to release that. So there are tons of things that we have said on these podcasts about healthy marriage intimacy and pursuing that together and growing in that together, because we really believe that. That that sexual union is a very important part of a marriage and should be worked on. But when you're early in recovery, and that's what this podcast is about, when you're early in recovery, in sometimes in the trauma or if you're trauma bonded, there may be a feeling for yourself or coming from your spouse like, well, if we just engage more, it'll go away. And usually that perpetuates pain and leads to significant problems down the road.

Yeah, when I was hearing you, I mean, what I wrote down was control. What you can control. And what you can control is your own healing at the pace that you're going, whether you're seeing a counselor or therapist, you're in group, but then also what you can control is the boundaries that you implement. You know, so to this point, Nick, that you're bringing up, like, put that boundary in place that right now sex is off the table. And here's why. Because I don't feel safe, you know, and list out the reasons. But I think that that's just that. And both spouses in this situation always need to hear that. Control what you can control, because you don't to dictate the pace at which your spouse is healing. You do, however, get to dictate at what hurdles you put in place, you know, of that person's recovery. Because, you know, I think that we can do it on both sides, but control what you can control. I think that that is just. I mean, that it's almost a mantra at this point for a betrayed spouse.

Right. And that's. And having healthy control, because I think sometimes this controlling idea gets a little bit murky when we're talking about a betrayed partner. But all of us should have a realistic expectation to have a sense of healthy control in our lives. And when we don't, then that creates problems. And so I completely agree that it is. Okay, this is my healing. I can control what my healing looks like, and that's gonna be a priority for me as a betrayed partner.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

Okay. So the last one. And again, it's one of those things where a betrayed spouse did not choose to enter this situation. And so tips like this just be like, well, like, it's not about my healing. I don't. Why do I need to do this? But something that we do know, a lot of betrayed spouses struggle with is self care. And so the tip number seven is to implement self care.

Yeah. Okay. I have to say this one saying that Barbara, Dr. Barbara Steffens says, because.

Shout out Dr. Barbara Stefan.

Oh, totally. It's awesome. When we were in Absat's training, just like, randomly, she says, yeah, welcome to the sorority that you never planned to join. And so that's kind of how it feels as a betrayed partner. But I think that even when it comes to self care, that for women, women tend to not put self care as high as a priority. I know that for me as a wife and a mom and working and all these other things, that self care was not important to me. And self care, I think, is huge, is a huge part of our healing process because it's good for our physical and emotional and mental and spiritual health. And it does so many great things for us. But I think sometimes we also feel the pressure that, okay, if self care needs to be this big thing, that I need to spend an hour every single day doing these things. And so I think that sometimes I know that I've done this myself, that I set myself up to fail when I put these big grand plans together instead of just saying that, okay, for 15 minutes on Tuesday, I'm going to step out of the busyness and I'm going to just find a quiet place and I'm going to breathe and relax for 15 minutes and that's going to be my self care. And self care could be going for a walk or reading for an hour, or just sitting quiet with a cup of tea or. It doesn't have to be this grand thing, but it really is the idea that I'm going to do something that's going to care for me. And I think that that's an important piece to this whole process.

A question off of that. Could you see a situation where a betrayed spouse puts a boundary in place that involves self care? Like, because of the season that we're at in our marriage, I'm realizing I need to care for myself. And so every day or every Tuesday or something like that, I'm gonna put this on the calendar so that I can do self care. Is that a situation? I mean, is that normal? Is that encouraged? I don't know. It's just a thought that I have.

Yeah, I think that it is encouraged. I think that especially if you're in a season where you have little kids and you work all the time and then you go home and your day, the rest of your day is busy with family stuff and kids stuff, I think it can be really hard to find self care. And I would think that it's equally important for both spouses to plan it out, have a schedule where it's like, okay, here's your day for you to do whatever you need to do for self care. And then I'm going to take an hour on Thursday to do what I need to do for self care. And because it is really, really an important thing for the marriage, if we're.

The struggling spouse, if we're the one that had addiction issues and brought that into the marriage or that was in the relationship. This is a role we play to encourage that. I mean, to ask questions, how can I help you get what you need? And it's a very significant way that the struggling spouse can show they're recognizing their behavior, their decisions had a impact and they, they can help. You know, they can't heal for the person, but they can say, how could I provide space for you to get out without our kids? How could I make room for you to have a girls night? And many, let's be honest, many of us as men in our addiction were kind of control freaks. And I've heard of many men that they control the Finances, they control the family spending, they control kind of the family calendar. And that may be part of your recovery of letting go and saying, you know, within our budget, because we do recommend budgets and not just, you know, spending with no idea if you have money or not.

Amen.

But creating that space of like, you know, honey, this is your budget, this is your fun money. This is. And depending where you're at in Life, maybe it's 50 bucks or maybe it's thousands, you know, depending on where you're at. But for a spouse to even know, this is my money. And on a girls night, I get to do what I want with my money as a part of that fun and not have to answer for it or, you know, why did you send Joy? This was mine to do with it as I wanted. And that creates a sense, I think, of empowerment and freedom and is a way that the struggling spouse says, I see your needs and I want to be a part of helping meet them. And so if you can encourage self care, I just would say, whether you're the man or the woman who's on that side being the struggler, your investment in their healing will always be helpful. And if they're asking to go to a counselor and you're like, it costs how much it's worth the investment. Because if it leads to a healthier spouse, as you're also pursuing your recovery, there's just no dollar amount you can put on that. There's no like, you know, well, my marriage wasn't worth that much because anyone I've talked is like, yeah, my marriage is worth it. And that's what you're doing. You're investing in the future of your marriage by investing in the self care for your betrayed and hurting spouse.

And honestly, if you're not getting that from your struggling spouse, it's okay to ask for it and it's okay to put it on the calendar and say, this is, I am doing self care for my benefit and for my health. Because not every situation will be that depending on where you're at, especially if you're early on in this healing journey. I mean, who knows where the crisis has hit in your marriage. So just be aware that, you know, you keep going back to it, Nick. And I'm glad that you do. Like, you're finding your voice, you're giving your permission, you're giving yourself permission to set boundaries. And in that you can start implementing self care even if your spouse doesn't understand it, doesn't get it. Like, the point is not that they get it. The point is that you get the self care and that you benefit from it. I just really feel like this is such a challenge. I mean, we know this. It's such a challenging journey for betrayed spouses. And we've said it so many times, they did not choose this story. They did not choose this life. This is something that has happened to them. But just sitting on our hands and anticipating that she's going to get better over time, by itself, it's not going to work out that way. And that's why we have groups for betrayed spouses. I'll make sure we have those in the show notes. But just we hope that these seven tips are helpful. We hope that they're helpful. As you're starting this journey knowing that it is going to be challenging and there's going to be a lot that you're going to face, but the reality is that you can get through it. And that's what's so great, is that there are hundreds of thousands of women who've gone through these groups and have experienced this healing before you. And so just understand that it is available. Hev, thanks for your vulnerability today and also just being with us and adding expertise here.

Yeah, path. Happy to do it.

And wherever you're at on your journey, Pure Desire is here to help create a road map for your healing. If you or someone you know is impacted by sexual brokenness or betrayal trauma, go to PureDesire.org and let's start the healing journey today. Don't forget to subscribe to the podcast. Each week we put out new content to help you on the road to healing and freedom. And lastly, never stop being healthy.