258 - Faith, Sexuality, & Gender w/ Preston Sprinkle

You're listening to the Pure Desire Podcast, your safe place to find hope, healing, and freedom from sexual addiction, betrayal, and relationship issues.

What is up?

I'm your host, Trevor Windsor, and you're listening to episode 258 of the Pure Desire podcast. Here joining me as always is my co host, Nick Stembo.

You've got a lot more going for you with Hank Hardware. Hank, you've.

I feel like between, I don't know, maybe it's just. Maybe it's just a vibe I'm picking up. You're singing a lot more recently. Have you joined a worship team? Are you now with your quartet again? Like, what is this re fascination with music and singing on your intros?

Am I the last couple? I didn't. I think it's the ones that we've. You're listening to the ones we've recently aired and then what we're recording today. I've sung a lot. Yeah. No, that one came as a suggestion from Chris, AKA Eric. He'll know what that means in Missouri who said, hey, you should use that as a jingle. So. No, nothing in particular. It's, you know, when you're on episode 250, whatever, you use whatever you can get as an intro.

That's fair. That's fair. As you said that whole Chris Eric thing, I just thought of the line from ELF where he's like, I like secrets too. Because all the listeners are now like, great, they have an inside joke. Anyways, let's get to why, because I am interested in why. Let me intro a little bit too of who we're talking to today. We had Preston Sprinkle on the podcast today. Preston is the president for the center for Faith, Sexuality and Gender. He's a biblical scholar, international speaker, and a New York Times best selling author, which makes me a fanboy. And he has written numerous books, including People to Be Loved, why Homosexuality Is Not Just An Issue, Living in a Gray A Christian Teens Guide to Homosexuality and Transgender Identities of the Church and what the Bible has to say. He's also served as the general editor for the new book Two Views on the Bible and the Church. He's given talks to thousands of people worldwide on the topic of faith, sexuality and gender. And he and his wife Chris live with their four kids in Boise, Idaho, as we learned at the end of our episode today. So we had Preston on, really, just to talk about this conversation of the church, how we approach and have conversations and address anybody in the LGBTQ community.

Yeah. And as we brought up on the episode, whether it's same sex attraction, gender pornography, betrayal. Like these are hard conversations to have. Yes. And most people in the church, most of us have maybe some preconceived ideas and ways that we have just responded that haven't always been helpful. And so we're trying to train ourselves how to have hard conversations, how to respond when someone shares something that honestly, internally makes us uncomfortable. But we don't want to ruin the relationship by how we respond. And so just having these conversations is so important. And I think the theme that I hear and this relates to my intro, you've got to know the story. So if you grew up in the Midwest in the 80s and 90s and listened to Minnesota Twins games on the radio, you probably heard Hardware Hanks jingle and are now cursing me because that little jingle will be stuck in your head the rest of the day. Because I swear every single commercial break of a Twins game was Hardware Hank. And that's my story of why it's in my mind because most people have probably never heard, never that that commercial. So in a, in a connected way, when it comes to walking through life with others who are dealing with same sex, attraction, gender issues, or whether it's something we've been through, there's a story there. And if we don't know the story, it's not going to make much sense to us because it's going to be like a foreign ad. Like, why did you even bring that up? But if we hear the story, if we know the connection points like, oh, okay, then we start to see ways that we can lean in and we can be a friend or even be a friend to ourselves as we understand our own story. So I thought it was a great conversation. Preston's a lot of fun to dialogue with and we just appreciated seeing the ways that what he's doing and what we're doing at Pure Desire has a lot of connection because we're trying to open some doors that can be difficult to open.

Absolutely.

Hard conversations.

Absolutely. And this episode really is great. Preston is amazing. A few things before we get going. Subscribe to the podcast. We're on all the major platforms. Give us a review. It helps. Really, really does. Also make sure to follow us on social media, Facebook, Twitter and Instagram earedesirepdmi. And you can find this full episode up on YouTube. Just search pure Desire Ministries. And then, Nick, we want to just remind people we're getting closer and closer and closer to the 2022 Pure Desire Summit. Talk about it.

Yeah, it's going to be great. Right in the middle of September, we moved it a week because it was right after Labor Day and had people say, man, I really want to come, but it's such start of the school year. So we moved it a week later so you could come and hang out.

With us, no excuses.

Or you could watch online virtually or attend one of the host sites. That is a new thing this year. So we just feel that the summit is gonna be that annual wind in your sails encouragement in my journey. And if you're in the first year of recovery, it's probably obvious to you why that's helpful. Like, man, to be around people that are doing the kind of stuff I'm doing is awesome. But for many of us that are, we're five years into this journey, or 10 or 15, I think there come points we get a little disillusioned or we get into our ruts, or we're just like, well, what's God want to do now? And so having a focal point, a weekend to just gather and say, okay, Lord, what do you want to do in my story now? How do you want me to stay engaged in recovery? Because recovery isn't a one time thing. Recovery is a lifelong journey and we want to all continue to lean into that. So I think the summit will give you ideas, it'll give you fresh inspiration, it'll help you meet other people that are on this journey and really move you into the next season. So join us for the summit. We're stoked, so glad to have Julie Slattery and Jay Stringer and Ashley Jamison speaking. It's gonna be so Good.

Yeah. So September 16 and 17, you can join us in person in Troutdale, Oregon, online or at our site host. Just go to PureDesire.org summit22 and register today. All right, here's our time with Preston Sprinkle talking about really how to balance lgbtq, the conversations and relationships while maintaining a biblical sexual ethic. Preston Sprinkle, welcome to the Pure Desire podcast. Thanks for being with us, man. Appreciate it.

Yeah, thanks for having me on.

I don't know, I mean, Nick, maybe you can talk to your fandom a little bit, but I think it's safe to say we're both fans of you and your work and the conversations you're having. I know for me, I've listened to your podcast Theology in the Raw quite a bit over the last probably last year. I have some friends who've been on it and people I wish I was friends with on your podcast as well, and so been listening to your Stuff, but our listeners will have maybe heard. Well, they will for sure hear about you in the intro, but we're grateful that you're just willing to spend time with us talking about what you and your organization are passionate about, which is really the LGBTQ community and the church. So for our listeners that maybe aren't familiar with you, your ministry, your books, your work, anything, will you tell them a little bit about yourself and the kind of ministry that you're in?

Sure, yeah. So I'm president of a nonprofit called the center for Faith, Sexuality, and Gender, and our whole mission is to help resource the church, typically, like Christian leaders on questions about faith, sexual body, and gender. And our kind of twin pillars are theological faithfulness. Okay. And then courageous love. So how can we hold true to what the Bible says about faith, sexuality, and gender and also love people who may fall short of that standard, which. Which really is all of us at the end of the day, but specifically, you know, LGBTQ people have, for the most part, most part had a really poor experience with. With Christians in the church. So I'm trying to help change the culture of the church to make it more. More kind, more hospitable, more loving, and yet also maintaining a historic Christian view of sexual ethics. And I. You know, I don't think those two are at odds. I guess that's my. My. My big selling point. The big heart of my mission is I think you can be loving toward all people while maintaining a traditional sexual ethic. So, yeah, we've been going for, gosh, almost five. Yeah, over five years now. Before that, I had written some books on what the Bible says about sexuality, recently wrote a book on transgender identities. And so I would say I've been in this conversation maybe for about eight years or so, writing and speaking and so on. So, yeah, it's been a journey, for sure. Yeah.

I mean, such a needed conversation. I mean, imagine that what you described, a church that is loving and kind towards people that aren't like us. And it's. It is kind of sad that we live in a day and age that that's not necessarily a given. You know, what we know about the church. We should be loving and kind towards all people. And yet this is an area, I think especially that we have struggled because there's so many misunderstandings. There's misconception, There's. People are quick to jump to judgments or ideas of what it means if someone says, I am this or I'm that. And it just can be difficult because of that. It's easy to Avoid. And I think a lot of Christians do avoid it until maybe something happens in their world that's very personal. Something happens in their family. A friend, someone comes out and says, I've decided I'm, you know, the other gender, or I'm letting you know I'm gay. And all of a sudden, something they've worked very hard to avoid is very personal and front and center. And they end up, you know, grabbing hold of books by Preston Sprinkle and saying, okay, what is it that I need to understand? Because I think many of us did grow up in a type of Christianity that basically made these, like you just said, kind of mutually exclusive. That, well, we either love and embrace or we have a biblical ethic of sexuality, and there's really nowhere in between.

Yep.

So I love the way, Preston, that you are creating a framework for. How can we do both? Well, because I think what you just said is. Is so key. And so tell us a little bit. You know, one of the jokes we make around here is no one aspires to going into a ministry to work with sexual integrity and brokenness and pornography and addiction. Like, that's not a little kid's dream when they're shooting hoops in the driveway. And so I imagine kind of similar for you. Like, you didn't aspire to say, boy, one day I want to. I want to wade into the most controversial topics that exist in the Christian world. So how did you find yourself moving into this arena? What. What did God do in your life to bring you to this place?

Yeah, I sort of did fall into it. I don't have any. In my personal story. Never wrestled with same sex attraction. Never really had anybody close to me that did. So it really began as a. Almost like an academic journey. Like, I love theology. I, you know, was teaching at a Bible college for many years, and I love to wrestle with, you know, controversial issues. I'm not a controversial kind of person, but usually if something's controversial in the church, it's usually because, you know, there's smart people on both sides and there's things we need to kind of think through. And I've always been. Even prior to wrestling with sexuality and stuff, I've often been a fan of asking the question, what does the Bible actually say? Yeah. You know, if I said, is sex outside of marriage okay or not? Most Christians will say, well, no. And if I said, I prove it from Scripture.

Yeah.

How many could cite a chapter, a verse, or, you know, you know, or the, you know, I say, like, well, God says Don't commit adultery. I'm like, okay, that's having sex with somebody else's spouse. What about two consensual teenagers who are in love? You know, And I just. I've often been disappointed with kind of what I call, you know, thin answers to thick questions. You know, here's this complex thing I'm wrestling with, and I go to, you know, a Christian and, hey, what do you think about this? And they usually give some kind of, like, just an answer that just seems regurgitated and flat and not too thoughtful. So, anyway, my whole Christian journey has been trying to really understand not just what do I believe, but why do I believe it. So all that kind of gave me a running start to, you know, in 10 years ago, and somebody suggested I should write a book on what the Bible says about homosexuality. And. And I said, all right, I'll. You know, I thought it'd be a quick and easy book to write. Come to find out, there's not. Here I am, you know, 10 years later.

Oh, my gosh.

So. So it. So to answer your question, it really did begin out of a theological interest. Like, oh, wow, I get. I've never actually worked through what the Bible says about this. I know what I'm supposed to say, but I don't really know what the Bible says. And so that took me on a theological journey. But then that quickly led into a relational journey where I started to get to know lots of gay and lesbian people, many of whom were raised in a church and pretty much all of whom had a horrible relational experience in the church. Not just like, oh, the church was loving and kind, but, you know, I just couldn't sign off on its traditional sexual ethic. I rarely have ever heard that narrative where it really was simply the theology that was the hang up. In almost every story that I've heard of dozens and dozens of LGBT people raised in a church, there was. There was relational stuff that I'm like, well, we could fix that without changing our theology. So, yeah. Yeah. That kind of ignited my real passion in the journey.

Yeah, I like what you said. The thin answer to the thick question. I think we wade into that pretty often as our organization. I mean, sexual addiction, betrayal, trauma, Just don't do it.

Yeah.

I mean, yeah, or pray harder. Just serve more.

Get off the Internet. Don't do that.

Yeah, get rid of your smartphone. It's like, well, you know, I don't know. What's funny is people who say that must not remember what it was like to be a teenager and, like, the challenge of finding ways around all of the hurdles we put in our way. There was some excitement to that. Anyways, let's not get too deep into that. So with hot button topics like this, and I think to your point, the reason why I would even say hot button topic or controversial, to your point, is that there are educated people on both sides weighing in on their perspective and it's not a clear black and white. Here is the exact answer. There's a tension or a line to be walked, I think. So with that and your focus on this arena, where would you say Christians in general are missing the mark on these topics? And then where are we doing a good job when it comes to these topics?

Wow. Yeah, that's a big question. And it would probably change year to year, I would say, when I first really started to dive into the topic. So let's just say eight years ago, nine years ago, I think Christians were content knowing what they believe without why they believe it. So, you know, there's, there's, you know, a few passages Christians just kind of just absorb, like, oh, yeah, you know, Sodom Gomorrah, therefore homosexuality is wrong. But have they really taken time to understand some of these biblical arguments? Some are better than others. And just so everybody, I mean, I, you know, to some people's chagrin, I, I hold firmly to a traditional view of marriage and sexuality. I think the Bible is very clear on this and that even that statement makes some people upset. So yeah, everything I say is under, under that rubric. But yeah, there's, there's still, I mean, I, hopefully I can be honest enough to say, yeah, but there's still some arguments that use the Bible that aren't that good. Like Sodom Gomorrah, you know, the story about an entire city, the entire male population, young, old, went to go gang rape two angels who they thought were men. And then I've, I've seen Christians say, you know, look at this passage. And they go to some 14 year old who just said, I think I'm attracted to the two other boys, you know, and no, no, it's wrong. Look. And he's looking at this passage saying, you know, I've never wrestled with one of the gang rape spiritual beings. Like, that's exactly, you know, yeah, and it can really, really dehumanize you. And like, yeah, because Christians are looking at this and it's like, wait, are you reading the same pattern? Like, do you think I'm, that that's really discouraging, you know, like, so I think I Think, and this, I guess this still goes for today. Like Christians in our, in our race to defend the truth, you know, sometimes there could be fear and kind of lack of nuance. And so I, I just really want Christians to think hard about what, why they believe what they do and develop really thoughtful reasons for what they believed that could withstand scrutiny from really smart people on the other side. And that was, I would say, the biggest hurdle for a long time in my journey was helping Christians have that kind of posture because it's that fear, Right. If I challenge some of their reasons for their belief, it sounds like I'm disagreeing with their belief. I'm like, no, I believe what your conclusion. I'm just like, let's respect the word of God enough to make sure we're handling it carefully. I think now, though, I think most churches and Christians that I work with, they've, you know, there's been so much written on it in the last eight, 10 years. So they've read some books. They, you know, they've got people in the congregation who are gay. They have parents who have, you know, several gay kids now. And so it's not such an out there topic anymore. Now it's very close to so many Christians that I think there is a healthy, like, oh, I really need to be careful with this conversation. I think another big area where Christians have kind of maybe could have done better is just understanding the complexity of language too, you know?

Yeah.

Sometimes we conflate being trans with being gay. We do that a lot, actually. Which being trans has nothing to do with being gay, really. I mean, some trans people are gay, some are straight, some are bisexual, some are asexual. Even trans can mean 11 different things at 10 different people. Right. Like ask people, oh, that person's not really trans. What does it mean to be really trans? Define that for me.

And you did that in your book Embodied. You did that quite a bit. I mean, even on the front end, really honing in on why language matters and how all these different nuances to each term is interpreted. Because you talked about even gender dysphoria being something that people would use the word trans in order to explain that. Yeah. So language being huge, for sure.

Yeah. And that's always a perpetual hurdle in this conversation is helping people understand there's complexity with these terms. They're used very differently. And don't assume you think you know what somebody means when they use a term that maybe somebody else might use it differently, which, which makes discussion both frustrating and exciting, for sure.

Yeah. I Mean for all of us to remember we have a need to listen and to learn before we speak and judge or tell someone how to live their life. If we haven't even really understood where they're coming from, no matter how true or accurate our advice seems to us, to them, it's gonna land perhaps very poorly. It's like we haven't even understood what I'm talking about or the language I'm using. And I think what I hear you saying that we do so much and this happens for us in sexual addiction is within our faith communities, we like to categorize people. And if we can put you in the category of, well, you're gay or lesbian or trans and that category, then we've made all sorts of assumptions or judgments about what it means to be in that category. I think it's very convenient and clean to keep those categories so separate. And we see that with sexual addiction, which I think has kept a lot of people from healing, because it's like, well, I'm not in the category of addiction, because if I am, there's all these other things about that category that means, like, my faith is weak, and maybe I don't even really love Jesus, and I'm more in love with pleasure than I am with God. And so that whole category, we say, well, I just struggle a little bit, right?

And so anything to abdicate myself from that category.

Right? And so rather than maybe pursuing healthy conversations around my broken sexuality, I avoid it because of the category. And I think we're seeing the same thing in the church that we put. We want people to be in a category, and that closes off conversation about what's really going on here? And. And helping people that sincerely are just maybe asking questions about, what am I feeling? Where are these desires coming from? What's going on in my life? And if instead we just right away put them into a category and dismiss them, the conversation ends, right?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, that's. Yeah, there's a lot of parallels there, for sure. Yeah, that's interesting. Yeah. Yeah. I see people in your field, not in your. Like, in the topic you guys wrestle with, kind of conflate, you know, periodic use, habitual addiction, like. But those are kind of overlapping but really different categories, right? If you have somebody who says, man, I'm addicted to porn, and you say, all right, tell me about that. Like, yeah, I watched it last month, you know, once or something. Well, that's different than somebody that can't leave the house without doing porn. Right? I mean, I'm speaking Out of turn here.

No, for sure. I mean, I think that we found, and we don't want to get too ahead because I know we want to talk about this a little bit, but we found that there's a lot of motivating factors that lead people to all different forms of sexual brokenness on that spectrum. But, you know, to the point of this question, I think we really, I mean, and this is, I still think so many of us in the church grow up with black and white, truth being communicated, and then when we, I don't know, get outside the church doors maybe for the first time and experience life and it's very gray and it's like, hold on a second. This is not what I was told. This is not what I was taught. I need to make sure I stay black or white, black or white. And I think that it's just that struggle of. And I'm still convinced that people in the church assume that I have to be so convicted and convinced and 100% sure about what I believe in order for it to be meaningful or to have legs to stand with people who don't believe the same thing. And I, I think that our own doubts and insecurities oftentimes invite people in deeper to those conversations where, you know, if we're so black and white, can just push people away.

Yeah, yeah, that's so true.

So we get the question a lot, Preston, of, well, why doesn't pure desire have groups for people who are, you know, same sex attracted, struggling with gender issues, and our common response to them is to say we see sexual brokenness as a spectrum. And based on our story, our family of origin, our wounds and trauma, things done to us, the spectrum of sexual brokenness in our life can be pretty broad, from same sex attraction to pornography to the person who's having just repeated affairs. So I'm curious, from your perspective, as you've studied and learned and listened and leaned into this area so much, to what degree would you say or agree that same sex attraction and gender issues are part of the spectrum of sexual brokenness? And where, on the other hand, might you see these topics different from a Christian struggle with lust, pornography, what we might call the more typical sexual brokenness?

Man, that's a great question. I don't know if I have a, a real firm opinion on that. So let me. I can maybe think out loud a little bit based on some experience.

Yeah, go for it.

I, I have had a good number of same sex attracted Christians who are, you know, following the traditional sexual ethic, who have said that sometimes the church can do things that come off as unintentionally othering. Like, and this would probably go to your point, like, rather than say, oh, let's shuffle off all the gay and lesbian sexually broken people over here, where all the straight people go over here, it's like, well, can I just join with you in your struggles? Like, is my struggle so different that it needs a whole separate category, you know?

Yeah.

So I, yeah, I can see a good case to be made for, you know, a place where people are dealing with a porn addiction. Some are gay, some are bisexual, some are straight. But at the base level, there is an addiction here that they can all resonate with. And obviously everybody's story is going to have a different manifestation of that. I could, I could see that kind of group more helpfully inclusive. For sure. Are, you know, the gender thing. I would, I would. That's the only one. I'm not sure. If somebody wrestles with their gender identity, maybe they experience gender dysphoria. Maybe they don't resonate with gender stereotypes. You know, there's all kinds of different variations of that. I don't know if I'd want to put them in a group where people are wrestling with sexual brokenness because that's not technically being sexually broken and because it could be almost be like, you know, some people would see wrestling gender dysphoria. It's like, what's a psychological condition? Like other psychological conditions. And, and so it's not like a. Yeah, it's like a sin issue they're wrestling with. They're just kind of feeling the effects of the fall. You know, that would be one form of that experience and not every, you know, again, each person is going to be different. So I would probably hesitate putting somebody wrestling with the gender and a group of people wrestling with sexual brokenness. But I, yeah, at the same time, I do know people who are same sex attracted, who do, on the flip side, find camaraderie when there are other people just like, oh, you understand what I'm going through, you know, and when they're in other groups, they still feel like no one really gets what I go through. So I don't know, I would probably, so I would go back, I would probably lean towards being more inclusive of, yeah, same sex attractive people, straight people, you know, wrestling with their sexuality.

Yeah, yeah. It's interesting what you say about gender and we've said that like in any group you need to feel like you at least have a level of comfort with those you're in the group with. And if, if there's a gender issue that you just feel like you're not even on the same page. I mean, the point of being in a group is that community that builds the trust, the camaraderie that we're on this journey together. And if, if being in the group itself is triggering for someone, well, that's, that's not going to happen. And so they may need kind of a specialized focus. But I think that's what we try to see is that for so many of us in our places where our sexuality feels off from whatever God's design is to be with others that are on that journey saying, I'm working through my stuff too. And maybe our stuff is different, but we can have that commonality. We find in groups so often that people's story, even people living straight and in a, a marriage will say, I've had a same sex story or had something in childhood or there's something along the way that they didn't feel safe to share. But that group context becomes a place that others hear and go, oh, something like that is part of my story. And so I think just letting people share the truth of their stories and finding that they're welcomed and accepted by people of the same gender is part of the healing that you're not off on an island all by yourself.

Yep. Yeah, that's good. Yeah. Yeah, that's good. Any kind of like minority atypical experience that the majority isn't going through, I think there is that kind of common bond of, of that very thing I'm going through something that seems like most people aren't going through. So even if they're in a group with somebody else, really different, but also an atypical minority experience thing, I could, I could see that being, being helpful, I think. Yeah, I'm. You kind of hinted at, I mean it's kind of case by case basis. You know, if they don't feel comfortable in this group for whatever reason, then yeah, don't force them in it. But yeah, I think for the most part being in some kind of inclusive group like that would be for the, I think for most people, I think most people will find that helpful.

Well, and I've seen even, I mean, you know, Nick brings it up like that's part of my story. I've never identified as gay or had same sex attraction, but I had a same sex experience when I was a kid and I remember sharing that in. It was my first pure desire group. I shared it and I remember There was a middle aged guy in our church who had heard my story and felt comfortable to come to me and share that he had struggled with same sex attraction and that was his arousal template, was always toward men. And it was obviously tons of shame for him. But. And I didn't know it at the time, but just me sharing allowed him the freedom and the really the safety. Just be like, you know what, I really want to share this with you. And I learned right there in that moment that how you respond when someone shares that, it might even be for the first time that he shared that with someone at the church. Our response matters so greatly in that moment because then that could create another wound for him if I don't respond well or I use language that might be damaging or hurtful. So that's just been my story. And I've seen that play out in group to what Nick is saying, that when people join a group and are comfortable enough, you know, together in that group setting, that that can unlock a lot of people for a lot of people, some healing. For sure.

Yeah, that's good. Yeah, yeah, yeah, totally. Yeah. You never, you can never predict on. Yeah. What story is going to, you know, give somebody else the courage to speak up. Like, those are, those are great God moments, you know, where God shows up in just unplanned, unpredictable ways. Yeah, that's good.

Okay, so this is probably my favorite question because I feel like this is the question a lot of us really wrestle with. And I know for me, I've had friends who are gay and who've been married, you know, to the same sex. And so it's. For me, I struggle with this one as well. But with topics like transgenderism, homosexuality, how can the church be a place of addressing these with grace and love while still, to your point, holding to the biblical ethic? So I feel like this is right in your wheelhouse, you know, and I, as I was flipping through your book, embodied that idea of the logic side and the love side. Like, how do we, how do we maintain being in the middle where we hold both rather than leaning to one side or the other too much?

Yeah, that's a good question. You know, I think it's context dependent. Um, so let me give you an example. Like, you know, I speak in a pretty broad range of churches. Some would be more progressive leaning, some more conservative leaning. Some would be like, very conservative, you know. Well, if I go into a. I'm thinking of a church in particular in North Texas that I spoke at, Baptist church, very conservative, like, very conservative. And then we come in and speak on this topic. It's like, well, okay, I want, I want everybody to embody grace and truth in really radical ways. This congregation is not really struggling with the truth part. I'm not asking the question. They're not asking the question, what does the Bible really say about marriage? They're not really wanting to re examine their theology. And me coming in, just having the conversation is nerve wracking, you know, well, what did I do in that hour long message? I have to kind of help them to embody a, a Jesus posture to this whole thing. Well, I, I lead with 20 minutes of, you know, pounding the pulpit with a very, I brought a very large Bible. Like, I want to give them the assurance that, yeah, I'm not waving on scripture. I will take a bullet for scripture. I am not. Here's my. I don't, I don't be cute and kind of like, oh, you don't know where I'm going to be at for the first 45 minutes. You know, that they're just going to shut down. Yeah, I lead with, here's my stance. Non negotiable. Boom, boom, boom. And literally I did that. And I do this whenever I'm at a really conservative church. And the elders in the back who, you know, brought me in, they wanted me to kind of mix things up a little bit. They said they saw the tension in the room just go, like, go down. Like the shoulders even went down because, like, oh, I came in ready to fight, but, oh, okay, so he's safe, I think. And once I do that, then I can kind of say, okay, because we love the Bible, because we love Jesus. Let's look at what the Bible says about grace and kindness and how Jesus reaches marginalized people who may be living sinful lives. You know, now in a more progressive environment, or I would even say a younger environment. And you know, 20% of the room is LGBTQ. They're not identifying. They have friends who are. This is not just an abstract thing. They have, you know, this is a really personal thing. I kind of do the opposite. The, you know, I lead with stories, I lead with telling about friends of mine who have had a, you know, I, you know, yeah, the church has not treated LGBT people well. Like, I lead with that. And then I end up saying, okay, now with that in mind, because we love humanity so much, let's go back to the Bible because I think God's vision for humanity is also loving. And let's look at what that vision is. So the content is almost word for word the same. It's just being. Being sensitive to where people are coming from and seeing what aspect of that grace truth paradigm do they need to be challenged with more, you know, so I just. I really have no interest in going in and preaching to the choir. You know, I really want to check because we all have. We're all missing it on some level. You know, for me, I'm. I really had to grow into the grace side. For me, I mean, you know, I'm an academic theologian. I'm very analytical. So for me, the truth part, it's easy for me to kind of the rubber band to kind of snap back in that direction, and I could fall ending and just treating it like just a theological paradigm. So I'm constantly have to challenge myself in the more grace relational side. So. And everybody else, you know, is going to have the same thing, areas where they're like, yeah, I'm not wavering on this side of it, but this side's, you know, more of a challenge.

So, Preston, can I ask on the, you know, your idea of the rubber band snapping back, what are things that you do that help challenge you to keep pushing into relationship and grace? Like, what are some things that have worked for you in that way?

So I'm an introvert, but I constantly try to stay in conversational relationship with LGBT people. I mean, just seconds before I got with you, I spent 45 minutes talking to a friend of mine who, believer transition, 15, 16 years ago, is in a conservative Baptist church as a trans woman, very theologically conservative in many ways, and beautiful, beautiful soul. And so, you know, even she would say, like, I don't know if I could defend transitioning from Scripture, but I don't think I want to go back. And I'm just really right. She's wrestling this stuff, honestly, you know, so, you know, I talked to her for 45 minutes, and it's like, okay, this is not. I can argue on paper for my position. I want to listen to somebody whose story I need to hold intention with maybe a theological position, hold intention, not change my theology, but at least say, okay, there's real people on the other side of this theological argument I'm making. But if I stiff arm all the real people, then it's easy for me to fall into this cold theological reflection and not understand the pastoral complexity on the ground. You know, so, yeah, and I try, you know, I work from home. I do a lot of writing and stuff in my basement podcasting, but I do, you know, speak around the country. And for me, I don't enjoy. I don't, like, naturally need to ever be on stage again to speak, but I do. I do it just so I know I'm going to be in front of people, I'm going to hear stories. I'm going to have parents lining up crying because their son is now their daughter, and what do I do? So it really does force me to keep my head in the lives of real people. So that's cool.

Yeah, I like how you're bringing it back over and over to relationship, because I think if we assume that people who are LGBTQ are just headstrong in what they believe and don't want to hear anything, well, we're going to approach them a certain way. But if, on the other hand, we assume they're wrestling, they're asking questions, they've got internal dialogue they're trying to figure out, and we're just trying to connect with them. It makes me think of what Tim Keller says in I think it's Center Church, where he talks about the ABC way of teaching, that he always starts with a, like, what do we agree on? Where do we all shake our head and go, yeah, this is what we together can agree? And so, you know, when you're with an audience that's very, you know, younger leaning into these topics, you want to create that sense of relational connection of, like, I know people, they've been hurt. Here's their stories, and now we're all kind of on the same page. And then his B is, let's look at where there's a contradiction in what you believe and kind of naturally highlight that contradiction of belief. And then C is take them to the beauty of God's truth and kind of building that bridge. And I think that's what I hear you saying, is, as believers, we need to come alongside and find out first, where can we connect? Where can we be on the same page? And I think this is true. Whether we're talking same sex, attraction, gender issues, or we're talking pornography, struggles or betrayal, we're so quick to have our opinion or to think we already know what their opinion is, versus just looking to say, where can we agree and relate? And then from there, from that bridge of relational connection, let's say, okay, where's the inconsistencies? And how in a loving, gracious way, could we talk about that and bring in some truthful things? So I really appreciate just that encouragement.

There's several cognitive psychologists who even pointed out that, you know, even in the kind of the art of persuasion. If you actually want somebody to consider your viewpoint, finding some kind of common ground is one of the best ways to kind of lower the heat, lower the temperature, lower the walls that are preventing people from even considering another position. But if you find a point of agreement that often helps people to get into a. They, oh, okay, this person's reasonable, I feel like I can maybe listen to what they're saying. So, yeah, that's. And I think it's just. It just reflects the humility of Jesus, too, when you do that, you know?

Well, and I feel like the people's walls that are up is because of negative experiences they've had in their past. Like, oftentimes someone bashed them across the head with the Bible, you know, which, I mean, physically that would hurt. And emotionally, it hurts too. You know what I mean? Like, it's something where they're probably responding to past experiences that were damaging.

Yeah. So true.

So Trevor said the last question was the big question, but I think this question is the big question that you probably get. Preston. Yeah, I think we've got the two extremes where some people would say, well, I am who I am. I can never change. This is who. And they'll even say, this is who God made me to be, so just accept me for the way I am. The other extreme might be the Christian that says, it's a sin issue, you got to repent of it, confess, and you just live differently. And I think neither of those are very helpful. So somewhere in the middle, the question lands, like, can people change when it comes to sexual orientation, gender issues, or is this a struggle they will always have? How do you answer that kind of question? Because we seem to have the two polar extremes in our society.

Very carefully. Very carefully. Yeah.

Kudos to.

You know, it's a little. It is a little. And there's so much heat in this conversation that I really. I really mean it. Like, we really do have to be careful in how we respond. It is a little bit of a loaded question, you know, don't you think God can change people? It's like, what do you. Like, do I think God can part bodies of water? Well, yeah. Be part of the Red Sea? Does that mean every time I walk up to my pool, I just keep on walking because I'm depending on God doing this because he can't. Well, no. I mean, there's. Yeah. Saying, could. Don't you believe God? Well, yeah, of course. He can do anything you once. And, you know, does this seem to be. And also, what do we mean by change that, that term in this conversation.

That's good.

Another of the many ill defined terms, change somebody so they will never be tempted with same sex attraction again. Change in how they view themselves, their sexuality in relation to Jesus. Change in how they have said no to same sex, certain sexual experiences that go against God's will. Like what kind of change are we talking? And this isn't just semantics, these are life changing nuances. I've seen several people literally lose their faith in God because they were told they can change. If they do, they try hard enough, God will change them. And they interpreted that to mean no more temptation towards same sex attraction. And because God didn't quote, come through, it's like, well obviously God doesn't exist and so they ditch their faith. So these are not, these are important nuances. Clarity is kindness in this conversation. So yeah, I'm on, you know, I'm not a fan of reparative therapy x gay ministries. Not that they don't bring some, not that they haven't done some good. I just have seen a decent amount of unintentional, for the most part, damage towards people's faith in some of these ministries. However, I also don't like the view that makes sexuality so binary, so etched in stone. I mean there has been a lot of studies done on the fluidity of sexuality that it is unpredictable, especially when it comes, I mean this is not even disputed when it comes to females. That female sexuality can be very flexible and porous and fluid and doesn't mean people flip flop from like totally gay to totally straight. But it does mean that people who aren't attracted to the men in their life at 21 might be married to three kids at 32. And that's not, that's not like, whoa, what had. This is crazy. Like, well, no, the human sexuality is very complicated. Very complicated. Lisa Diamond's a secular psychologist, a lesbian secular psychologist married to a woman. And you know, she, it's shocking to hear, not shocking, but it's fascinating to her say, you know, the whole born this way idea is a, is a myth. It's not scientific. There's no evidence people are simply born with some innate unchangeable sexual desire. So yeah, I think we need to honor the complexity of sex. And you know, I know, as I'm sure you do too, you know, a decent number of gay or same sex attracted people married to the opposite sex, some of whom that I know have really flourishing marriages. I know one guy, one friend of mine, I won't say they will Know him anyway. But it's just hilarious how unpredictable this conversation is. You know, he would describe himself as very, very gay. Like married to a woman, they have kids together. He's like, look dude, I am still 100% attracted to men. In fact I not even sure how. I have two kids and like seven years into his marriage, all of a sudden he starts calling me, says, dude, I don't know what's going on. My wife and I, we just had sex last night and it was amazing. I've never said that before. And then like, then they had like sex like every night that week. And he's calling me saying I'm not, I'm making fun of, you know, we have a joke. Oh, so dude, you're straight now. He's like, dude, shut up. No, I'm not, I'm not at all. But like I don't know what's going on. This is what's amazing. So. And I'm not, let me say it's loud and clear. This is not prescriptive. This is one story. One story. One stories are on. No is you just get to know people enough and there's just so much unpredictableness in sexuality. And I'll come full circle and say I am not saying therefore one's general orientation towards men or women or both. Flip flops back and forth. Yeah, but there is some fluidity, flexibility, some unpredictable things that can happen in one's, in one's journey. So do you have any follow up questions? I'm kind of dancing around maybe the question but I'm kind of in this weird tension of the totally. I don't say middle space because again, when I look at X gay ministries and parent of therapy, I'm like, that's especially when it's forced if somebody's not. Even if somebody, you know, I'm a big freedom guy, you know, like if someone wants to go and try to change their sexual orientation and knows the risk, benefits and everything, then hey, free country, do what you want. But where I really get nervous is when people are sold like, hey, if you do all the right things, this will happen. God will come through like an equation. Yeah, yeah, that kind of mechanical.

Yeah, I really appreciate your answer because I think we get that too about, you know, you've got to define the term change. Or for us the term might be freedom. Like people will ask, well can you ever be free of lust, free of pornography? And I think what they mean by that word is that I will never be tempted, I will never find someone other than My spouse attractive. I'll never have those old memories resurface. Like I will just almost their freedom description is this robotic response to now I'm almost this asexual being. And that's our answer to people. God is not going to like, click off the brain that he gave you that has dopamine and. And neurochemicals and designed you in his goodness, designed you to find people attractive, to find beauty and connect that to sexual response, like in a very good and holy way. That's how God made us. And so to say freedom means I'll never again battle. Lust may not be a fair use of the term, but we say, we believe that you can live a life where you honor God with your choices, where when you feel those triggers or temptations, you have tools and community to respond to them well. And you could really live in a way that you feel like, I'm not the person I used to be. Does lust happen? It comes up. Do I still have eyeballs and a brain? Yes. But I'm able to make the kind of choices that honor God. And I think in this area of our sexuality, it is important to define, like, what do I mean that I may not be able to turn off a part of my brain that's so connected to my story, to the way I was brought up, to experiences I had along the way. But I can begin to move in a direction that honors God and may involve, like you said, a story of being able to live happily in a heterosexual marriage. Those things could happen. Or maybe I'm led to a place of celibacy and choosing not to be in marriage. That if we just prescribe to someone, and that's what I hear you saying, if we prescribe to someone, well, change means you'll never feel those old attractions and you will only have relationships in the way that honors God. I think that's a version of sanctification that we may not achieve until eternity to be perfected into the state God designed us for. And so in this in between time, there is a lot of gray area. And I think encouraging people to pursue God's best, to pursue God's goodness, to look at how he defines health, can encourage people who may feel like man. I just, I don't know if I could ever cease to have these feelings or desires. Say, well, yeah, maybe you won't cease to have those feelings, but even so, might you be able to move towards the goodness of God in your life even while feeling some of this other stuff?

Jackie Hill Perry said it best. This is in a video she did for our ministry. She said, when I became a Christian, it's not that my temptations went away. It's just that I had a greater affection competing with those temptations. I thought that was a perfect way to honor the true power of God in our process of sanctification while being honest with, you know, these. Our sexual desires and temptations that are always going to be there.

So I want to mention something too, and I think it's important in the story you're sharing with you and your friend that you know, for someone who maybe might not ever change those desires, those attractions, whatever, they may never change. The reality is that friend has community in you where he can be honest and he can be open and can share that. And I really do believe that living in health, maintaining, managing whatever word that you want to use, I think that's impossible to do outside of relationship. And so that's what I think as you tell that story. What's so beautiful is that you're able to sit in this space and be in relationship with him and you create that environment where he can be honest about, hey, I just had sex with my wife seven days in a row. It was amazing, but I'm still attracted to men. Like, that is such an, that is such. That's a sentence that very few people will ever feel comfortable saying to any Christian ever in history. You know, so, and I'm, I'm like talking you up a little bit, but I'm also trying to bring to the surface that there's this environment, this culture, this space where if we have relationship that enables people to manage. I mean, I know for me, in my own sexual brokenness, my addiction, my addiction to pornography, sexually acting out when I was able to be honest about those things in a community, that's what was so unlocking for me. That's where it's like, okay, I can do this, I can manage this because I'm known and I know people, they know all my stuff and I can still be honest. And we're all on this journey of trying to continue to pursue the Lord in every area of our lives together.

Yeah, that's good. That's good. I didn't realize this, but with that, even that example. It's one thing to have a place where you can conform, confess your sin in a. Yeah. In a non judgmental context, but it's still going to push you towards Jesus, you know, that, that sweet tension. But this was just a celebratory moment. Like even, even that. I hear you Saying, you know, to have community where you can even celebrate some of these really personal, obviously, and intimate wins.

Totally.

That can motivate you to keep going on. Yeah.

Okay, so another, I guess as we, like get through these questions, like, and another big one. And another big one. So if we encounter.

There's no easy ones.

I know there's no. This is why we have you on, Preston, because you're the guy right now with this. So if we encounter someone who's like, lock solid in their belief about transgender, homosexuality, same sex attraction, any of that, and we disagree with them on that biblical basis, what do we do in that scenario? I mean, I know even in our conversation, like situation by situation, context by context, but just any perspective you might have, what do we do in that situation?

Yeah, you know, this is, I know I've said this before, it's probably applies every question, but this one especially, it really is a, a case by case basis. I really want to know what, like, what's the, what's the. So their belief, you know, God, no, God bless the same sex marriage, you know, that, that, that's a tip of an iceberg. And I want to know, like, what is leading to that? Was it just a raw, neutral intellectual journey where they became utterly convinced that the Bible doesn't say that marriage is between a man and woman? Is there a story there? Is there a personal story? Do they have a friend that got kicked out of a church and that kind of scarred them and now there's an internal motivation they might not even be able to identify to hold to that view, you know, what is, what is leading up to. Did they had an abusive father who held to a traditional view of marriage, and their kind of. Their whole life is patterned after not being like their father. You know, so much complexity. And if you just think that it's one size fits all reason, then you're not going to handle it well. So all that to say I'm going to spend probably a lot of time and energy trying to understand. Not just. Well, I want to know why they hold to that, like genuinely, not like interrogatively. Right. But like, I'm curious, like, I'm really curious why you hold to this view. You obviously hold it very passionately. Like, would love to understand that more. And, and really, I, I don't even know what step two would be unless I understand that. You know, if, if, if it seems like there's a lot of personal, relational reasons for holding to that view, then arguing theology is. It's like squirting Oil on a gasoline, gas and fire. Wait, is that even. I don't know, is. You're just.

We know what you mean. It's a good illustration.

Yeah, yeah. Like, that doesn't seem to be the issue, you know, and I have friends who it. It really is like they are intellectually convinced of. Of these arguments. That's what I do, kind of. Okay, let's explore these arguments. You know, oftentimes if a person holds to that view and they. And they talk to a Christian who doesn't. Like, they talk to somebody who holds a traditional view of marriage, typically, again, case by case, but for the most part, they're going to have a pretty negative view of Christians who hold to a traditional view. So I encourage Christians be different, don't confirm their biases, be a charitable listener and a loving person. Not because it's not a significant disagreement. It's a very significant disagreement. I don't think this is a secondary agree to disagree issue, but the only way I'm going to even get somebody else to reconsider their viewpoint that I think is very wrong is to be very kind and gracious and reasonable to show them I'm not here just to win an argument. I love you. We disagree on this important thing, but your humanity means more to me, you know? Yeah. Having that kind of posture is usually more conducive for getting anybody on any issue, any divisive issue, to at least be willing to engage in a charitable, reasonable dialogue about the issue, especially if.

Both people want to have that conversation. Like, this is not something where if you have a gay or lesbian friend, trans friend, who doesn't want to talk about it, like, quit bringing it up, then that's not. That's probably not going to be helpful to that conversation.

Right? Yeah.

Well, and if 2,000 years of church history and the hundreds of denominations that exist has taught us anything, when we discover real theological differences, we don't do well at resolving them. We tend to divide and split. And so if you realize, like you're saying, Preston, that our difference really is. There's a theological biblical difference, that's not to say we should part company, just go our separate ways. But I think we should take a pause to realize, okay, my arguments, my proof, texting is probably not going to. That's only going to further entrench them, because if that's their theological perspective, they've considered all that and they've arrived at a different place than me. And so what would ever lead to change? Well, conversation, dialogue, helpful questions. Consider, you know, have you considered this? And allowing some to explore with you? But I just love that point again, that you're saying we've got to take the time to listen to what's driving what they say and what they believe. And I love the way Andy Stanley says it in this area, that people who are nothing like Jesus like Jesus. And so people who are nothing like the church should like the church. There should be something about the way we treat people, honor people, respect their humanity, even if they are completely different than us. And right now, as we said earlier in the podcast, it feels like, sadly, the church in many regards is a long ways away from that, that people who aren't like the church don't think of the church as a fun place to go or a good place to hang out. It's like, whoa, why would I go there? And so whatever we can do to engage in conversation, to create relationship, to create dialogue, I think that's just so desperately needed in all of these areas, whether it's we're talking lust and pornography or same sex attraction and gender issues.

Yeah, for sure.

Yeah, yeah, that's good. That's good. Yeah. It applies to all kinds of diverse. Well, diverse and divisive topics, you know.

So what do you say, Preston? If. And I know for a lot of our listeners, this may be the thing that's on their mind is they're listening to the podcast because they're processing their story. They're maybe in a group, their marriage is finding traction as they're working through pornography issues. But we all have friends and family who are wrestling with same sex attraction, saying they're gay or lesbian, transgender issues. If that person is in our life that we care about, how do we help support them? What is our role as a friend or a family member? What are some of the things that you encourage people, hey, here's how to walk alongside and do life with them. And here are ways like that you'll make it a whole lot worse.

Somebody who's confessing Jesus.

Well, I guess at this point it's either or. Yeah, the person, the listener believes in Jesus, but they've got friends or family members that, yeah, maybe you're just wrestling with these issues and they're just wondering, what's my role in this? Should I just, like we mentioned before, just not bring it up unless they do? Should I be going after them to try to help them see truth for so many people? I think the heart of this question is just when that person comes to us and says, hey, I'm gay, or A family member says, hey, I've decided I'm becoming a woman. Or just the whole spectrum of things we might hear. How should we respond and how should we not respond?

Yeah, that's a great question. And once again, case by case. But I think there's some general principles we should be aware of. So let me start with. My ultimate desire for any relationship is that I get to a place to where there could be mutual edification, where I can help the person consider and pursue Jesus and live a baby faithful life. Right? And then if they're also designing that for themselves, they encourage me in that and so on and so forth. So that's, that's obvious. Should we go without saying, as a Christian, that's where all of us would love to see any relationship end up. The question is, you know, how, how can we cultivate the relationship with the person to even get to that point? That, that's, that's where it does get complicated. So for the most part, when somebody comes out as gay or trans to a Christian who's not those things, there can be a lot of fear, a lot of assumptions, a lot of lack of trust. So I want to, in a sense, reverse the assumptions that they might have about me as a Christian, you know? You know, did they come out to me or tell me they're gay because they trust me or because they kind of want to? You know, it could be a kind of a reaction, like in your face. You know, I kind of don't want to be around you because I heard you're a Christian, so I'm gay. Deal with it. Waiting for the rejection to come, and when it doesn't come, that could be kind of surprising. So I, I want to. Okay, here's something, actually. I just. The conversation I just had with my trans friend who, you know, pretty heavily involved with the trans community, and she said almost every, if not every single trans person I know in my trans community, you know, 20, 30 trans people that she gets together with, let's just, I mean, 95 plus have had a personal, really, really bad experience with either a Christian or the church. And so if all of a sudden you meet one, you know, the trans person who has a history of a bad relational experience, we have to kind of consider that, you know, I could. This is an extreme analogy. Okay, so don't. Just to make a point, but it'd be like being. If you were a German missionary to Israel in 1951. He said, hi, my name's Hildebrand or whatever, I'm here to Tell you about, gee, I'm a German, you know, like, well, it might be good to know a little bit of history between, you know, Germans and Jews and the Holocaust. Like, you may not be that maybe you hate Nazis, but you might have some deconstruction you have to do toward their assumption about who you are.

So that's good.

It wouldn't hurt to maybe have that in the back of your mind. Somebody comes out as gay. Maybe they're a family member, maybe they're an acquaintance. Yeah, they might not always, but they might have some legitimate bad experiences with Christians. Not listening, not being loving, being very judgmental. Only truth only, no love, no grace. Maybe even, you know, rubbing their faces in the story of Sodom Gomorrah. Like, I don't know what it is, but maybe they've had. They probably have had a bad experience, another Christian. So take that into consideration and focus on laying down a thick relational foundation of trust, of honesty, of being genuinely curious about who they are, emphasizing love toward the person, because they might not have never heard of a Christian really emphasizing that. So. And I say all of that because, yeah, of course I would love to get to a place to where they're like, hey, okay, so I would really love to know from you, like, what would it look like for me to really follow Jesus faithfully? But, man, that's. It's going to take a lot of foundational work to get to a place to where they're going to actually trust you enough to ask you that question.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I love that phrase, genuinely curious. And I think if that was just our posture, if the Christian church posture towards this whole arena could just become genuinely curious, like, I want to know, I want to hear. I want to listen. Can you tell me? Can you explain? And letting people voice their stories, letting them voice what has happened, man, what a difference that can make. And we talk about this a lot. Maybe the similarity here to what you do. Preston, what happens with pure desire groups is how many times in a group or counseling situation, someone for the first time is opening up about their addiction, their struggle, bad choices they've made, did they have an affair, whatever it is. And they're. They're realizing, like, I've never told someone this, and they get it out. We talk about how important it is that the first words you speak are going to set the tone for the rest of the conversation. And those words, typically we say should be, thank you for sharing that with me. That's amazing that you had the courage to trust me with that part of your story, because I bet that was pretty scary to share because you were worried about how I would react to our group. And we just want you to know we are so grateful for you. We love you. We're thankful for you sharing that and just the way that affirms that, oh, okay, this is safe, we can keep having the conversation. And I think because these are areas we don't understand, many of us as Christians maybe responded to someone poorly where we said, oh, my goodness, what? Or how long have you been lying to me? And just all the fear and the emotion comes up and we let it come out, and it changes that whole relationship. And so I. I think for any listeners that maybe realize in your fear or in just your shock of having this conversation with someone, you responded poorly, that's a starting point to just go to them and say, hey, when you shared that with me, that was a pretty amazing, vulnerable moment. And I responded really poorly. And I'm sorry. Yeah, I mean, that. That could change their perception of, oh, maybe. Maybe we could have that conversation.

Yeah. Apologies do go a long way. That really early on in my journey, I heard. I think I apologized for, like, I said, I'm stupid. I was like, you know, I'm sorry. Said that the response they got was, I've never heard of a Christian apologizing to me before. I'm like, really?

Yeah. Never like.

One.

I guess.

Super sad, right? Yeah. Like, gosh, yeah, dude. Preston, I think for us, we love what you're doing. I mean, as we just had this conversation and getting to know you a little bit more, like, you just embody that person who's standing in the middle of not flexing on the Bible's sexual ethic and how God has ordained and put things in place, but then also standing in the middle holding those relationships and pursuing that and not leaning one way or the other where you're sacrificing on either end. And so that's. I know for me personally, through this time together, it's been really encouraging. I know it's going to be encouraging for a lot of our listeners as well. So just. Dude, thank you for what you do and thank you for spending time with us today. We appreciate it.

Thank you. You too, guys. Yeah. I mean, yeah, it's interesting how much overlap and tone and perspective there is in our two ministries, which seem different, but there's obviously overlap.

Well, that's why we wanted to have you on, because we felt like we feel some symmetry there of he's leaning into conversations. The church doesn't know how to have. He's not just, you're not just providing pat answers and we'll do this and you'll be fine. Like, you're inviting people to wrestle, you're inviting people to listen, you're inviting people to lean in with love, even holding on to truth. And, and that's the kind of space we want to be in, is helping the church have conversations that we're just not good at having because most of us were never taught how to have these kind of conversations. So if we're going to do this well, and I really think the church is moving into a new day where whether it's sexual addiction, whether it's betrayal trauma, whether it's same sex attraction issues, gender issues, like, we can't avoid these conversations anymore. And if we can help the church and what you're doing, Preston, helping the church have these conversations, well, then, then that gives me hope. That gives me hope that we can move in a better direction and be seen as that kind and loving place where people come to not feel like they have to run away from.

Absolutely.

Yeah. Yeah.

So thank you for what you're doing.

Yeah. And listener, we will have Preston's stuff. We'll have links in the show notes. But just remember, wherever you're at on your journey, pure desire is here to help create a roadmap for your healing. If you're someone who knows impacted by sexual, sexual brokenness or betrayal trauma, go to PureDesire.org and start the healing journey today. Don't forget to subscribe to the podcast. Each week we put out new content to help you on the road to healing and freedom. And lastly, never stop being healthy.