261 - FAQ #13

Welcome to the Pure Desire Podcast, helping you take back your life from unwanted sexual behavior and betrayal trauma. Hello. Hello. I'm your host, Trevor Windsor, and you're listening to episode 261 of the Pure Desire podcast here. Joining me as always, co host Nick Stumbo.

Apparently I've never been on live TV before and apparently my grandpa, we go home, watch the Powerball.

Is that that little kid? Apparently. Is it that kid on YouTube?

Yeah. Get interviewed at that state fair. It's like one of my favorite little clips ever.

Oh, man.

He says apparently like four times. He's like five. Apparently.

That word a lot at your house. That's funny though, because we have like, we've got a five year old at home who like says stuff was like, where did that come from?

Some words they've learned. You're like, wow, where did you like.

I didn't teach you that word. Where did you get that word? Okay, so let's get to why you're quoting this great YouTube video we had Heather Kolb, our content manager, neuroscience expert on to do. Really? And it's the 13th one of our FAQ frequently asked questions episode.

Yeah, you know, as it turns out, when it comes to our sexuality and sexual brokenness and unwanted behavior, we've all got a lot of questions and that's why we keep doing these. And just like the interviewer in that little clip, you know, she asked good questions and she got some really great answers that, you know, have been seen by millions of people. And we have some really good questions today and I think some really unique questions that we have not heard before. But when you hear them, you're like, wow, that's probably a pretty common situation. And hopefully you, the listener, will feel like we had some great answers. We don't use the word apparently that much, but we do just talk a lot about how in every situation, it depends, but we provide a lot of direction that hopefully in your situation you can apply appropriately.

Yeah. And we love these episodes. Just the variety for sure. So we've got a good one. Few things. Subscribe to the podcast. We're on all the major platforms. You can follow us on social media, Earedesire, PDMI and also search these full episodes up on YouTube to search pure Desire Ministries and then Nick. We want to make sure people know it's out, it's live, it's in the world. The group leader training. The one stop shop for training to become a Pure Desire group leader is now on our website. It's available for order. It's a video Course, and it's great. Tell the people about it.

Yeah, go get it. So we've been leading groups at Pure desire for over 25 years. Not all of us individually, but as a ministry. And that wisdom has been distilled down and collected into these 40 or so training modules that people can watch in bite sized sections. And over the course of a few days or a few weeks, however long you want to take, you can really get a broad overview of. How do I lead a peer Desire group? Well, because we have found over and over that the health of a group is almost always directly connected to the way in which it's led. That when a group is led well, it's a successful positive group environment. And when it's not a positive good group, we can always point to, oh well, you didn't follow this guardrail. Oh, this was never done, this was never said. So no one's perfect, no one has to be the expert. That comes up a lot in the training. But we can all be equipped to lead groups well. And whether you are in your first year of recovery or your 15th, we hope that you'll consider at some point in your journey leading a group because that's part of honestly how God furthers our healing is when we turn the corner and help others, not only do we get to be a blessing in their life, God uses that role to help us continue to shape our own recovery. So if you've never thought you could lead because you're like, well, how could I be trained? Now you can be trained. So we hope you'll jump in and go for it. Because not only will God use you, God will bless you in your own recovery as well.

Yep. So to order this eight session video course, go to PureDesire.org GLT alright, here's our time with Heather Kolb, our content manager and neuroscience expert, talking through more frequently asked questions. Heather Kolb, welcome back to the podcast. Thanks for being here.

Thank you for having me back.

You and I were both just, I don't know, commiserating, commemorating. I don't know that we're both just kind of don't want to be here today, but we're still here. So I just want you to know that we are committed to this podcast. Though we do have a good time, our conversations are always good.

Yep.

So we're diving into another Frequently Asked Questions episode. We have a great list of questions from really all over the recovery and healing map. And these questions, most of them are sent in by listeners. And again, if you are a listener I get those emails. When you send it to podcasturedesire.org, i get those emails and they make their way onto a lot of these episodes. And then also we create full episodes out of those suggestions. So please keep sending those in. So with that, let's just get into it. We got a lot of different things we want to cover. The first one comes from Michael M. And the question is, what is emotional anorexia? What causes it, and how do we heal from it? Just a real softball question to start.

Seriously. Now, this is a great question because I think that people don't necessarily understand what this means. We all probably are familiar with the idea of anorexia where you on purpose starve yourself, you really just don't ever eat food or are really particular and intentional about that. Emotional anorexia kind of falls into the same category as far as it really is just somebody who's emotionally starving themselves. And so really, just to be prepared a little bit more, I did some research on this, and there are a lot of thoughts out there about emotional anorexia, where it comes from, is it more dominant in women than men, those kind of things. And it's interesting that for whatever reason, a person would usually intentionally want to just cut off themselves from their emotions. And this isn't just in relationship, even though it does play out a lot in relationship, but this could even be a skill set that somebody would develop, and I know that sounds weird, but a skill set that they would develop for a certain career or something that they would just, in order to get where they want to get, they need to stifle their emotions. But when it does come to relationship, it usually happens when you have somebody in the relationship who is willing to sidestep their emotional needs in order to better serve the other person. And we see that a lot in this recovery and healing process. We see that that, that is sometimes a behavior that somebody will do because they think that they're serving the other person when really they're denying themselves not only their emotions, being able to feel something, but also being able to express those in a healthy way. And there was some research that said that this often can stem from a childhood environment where it was not okay to feel emotions, or where those emotions may be ended up in punishment or consequences. And so then for the individual, they decided, okay, this is not worth it to me to have emotions. So I'm just going to train myself to cut myself off. And that's usually kind of what it is and where it comes from. And I would Be careful to not say that something causes it. But if you can recognize in someone's behavior that there tends to be a pattern or a strong correlation between a person who is denying themselves in order to better what they think is better, serving another person or maybe even their family, but then in the long run, it ends up hurting them because they're not only not emotionally aware, but then also their needs and feelings are not being expressed in a healthy way, because eventually our feelings are gonna come out, and usually they're gonna come out in an eruption, like an angry. You know, it's gonna land on everybody around you. And so really that's part of recognizing the problem. That even if you have. Even if, like, if I can look at my own behavior and my own patterns and say that, okay, I know for a fact in my first marriage, I was this way because my emotions didn't serve me well. And in order for me to survive the situation that I was in, I needed to be emotionally numb, and I trained myself to live that way. Not at all a healthy perspective for anyone ever, regardless of the reason it starts, it just is something that's not healthy. And then, really, when it comes to healing, I think that it stems from having that awareness that it's normal for us to be emotional. God made us emotional beings, and our emotions are good, and we need to first be aware of those, and then we need to practice expressing those in a healthy way.

And.

And this is something that, for me, I had my time in counseling to learn how to do this, to learn even. Not only learn more about my emotions, but learn how to say things that I wanted to say in a healthy way. And not vomiting my words on people and not taking it out in an unhealthy way, but just learning what that process looks like in a healthy relationship. And then again, practice, practice, practice. Right. Because this, I think, is an area where even if we lived a time where we were emotionally starving ourselves, and then we want to get into an emotionally healthy place, that pendulum might swing and we might need. It might take years to find balance in that. But I know that this is something that I continue to work on even today.

Yeah. And this comes up on the Post Traumatic Stress Index, where we see trauma blocking can happen, because that's how someone learned, kind of like you said in your story, Heather, they learn to respond to trauma by just kind of shutting it out and shutting out the emotions of it. And that could be from childhood, it could be from a previous relationship, or it could even be in the current relationship. How a spouse is reacting to the pain of betrayal, which is something we commonly see, and they just have shut them down. And the reason that I see it being so destructive, we typically shut off emotions to avoid the lows, the anger, the grief, the sadness, despair, you know, those kind of what we might perceive to be more the negative side of emotions. But what we've learned is that that also shuts down the positive side of emotions, that all of our emotions kind of exist on a dial, and if we shut them off, we've also shut off the highs of joy and excitement and anticipation, and we just kind of have numbed out to all of it. And so being in touch with our emotions, yes. Might be opening up some doors to the scary side or those powerful emotions that we weren't taught how to deal with well. But it also means opening the door to all those really good things. And that's why we need the support of a group. We might need the help of a therapist or minimum, a life coach can kind of help us learn to walk back into some of those and see why that was my response, why that was maybe even an appropriate response at the time, but isn't serving me well long term. And so we've mentioned on the podcast, too, just a simple tool like the feelings wheel, to get us beyond just, I'm happy, I'm mad, sad, glad those are the only emotions I know. It's like there's a whole lot of other things we're feeling and learning to express those. And even just pointing on a chart like, this is what I'm feeling, and I'm not real sure why, but that's a good word to describe. It can help us get more in touch with what's going on and ultimately, I believe, lead to healthier, stronger relationships, because we're not only letting others know us, but we're also getting to know ourselves a little better by having some awareness of our emotions. Yeah.

And I think a lot of this can stem from the either environment, teaching, or cultures that have informed us that our emotions are bad or that they're not helpful for us. I know that for me, that's the culture I grew up in. I can remember a mentor telling me, you say, I feel a lot. You need to stop saying that and say, I think. And I mean, I still love the guy, he's great. But I just think to that moment, and that was such a good description or summary of what I was taught growing up or what at least was implied to me. And I think that we need to Remember that our emotions inform us. I think of. I've heard it described like they are like the icons that come up on your dashboard in your car, when there's something going on in your car that maybe is different or shouldn't be going the way that it's going. It's just. It's something to alert you, oh, there's something going on there. And I can explore that later and look into that. And so I think that we need to all just continue to remind ourselves our emotions are not bad. God has built us into who we are as people to experience them.

And I think even, Nick, what you were saying about how that if we shut down our emotions, we're shutting down all of our emotions, and that's a huge piece of it. Because we want to think that I can only ever feel joy and I can never feel angry. Well, that's an unrealistic expectation because we really have the capacity to feel all of the things. And if we're not feeling any of them or we're not feeling the negative ones, we're not feeling anything. So that's good.

Well, and part of this question makes me wonder if the person is asking for someone else, meaning they're observing someone in their life that is acting this way, hope to change them, which you could go back to a lot of our other podcasts to get some insight onto. You know, you can't change other people. You can only work on you. You can't force them. But I. I think if you're in a relationship with someone that you feel they are emotionally anorexic, I would just encourage, like, I think honesty and authenticity and humility go a long way to just say, hey, I'm noticing this about you. Here are ways I feel like it's hurting our relationship, and here's the impact it's having on me. And then to say, if there's ways I can support you in navigating these emotions or understanding why you're shut down, I'm here for you. I can't do the work. I can't make you feel it. But I want you to see the impact it's having on us as a family. I think that's appropriate to say, but again, to just recognize you can't change people as much as we'd like to. But as we're more aware of our emotions, that may help them engage as well, because they see what's happening in us.

Yep.

So second question is a good one. I don't think we've spoken specifically about this Topic very much. Which is interesting because Ted Roberts talks about it a lot in his book Pure Desire, the phrase white knuckling. So what is white knuckling and is it helpful or harmful?

Yeah, in my understanding of white knuckling, it's working to effort your way into healing and recovery. I know for me, like, thinking through, making sure that I don't have access to any movies that have any sexual content, making sure everything on my phone is locked down, doing all these things that are actually not getting underneath the surface to what's motivating my behavior or where the wounds are that I've experienced. It's funny, I think of this, and I've used this illustration before. I think of There's a movie called Invincible where Mark Wahlberg plays a guy who was a bartender who then actually made the NFL. Like, walked onto the Eagles. And there's this scene where where one of the linemen pulls him down to the ground and puts his hand down in the three point stance and is like, what color are my knuckles? Look at him. What color are my knuckles? And he said, if they're white, it means because I'm pushing forward and I'm coming after you. And if I'm leaning back, like, then I'm not. And the reason why I bring that illustration up is white knuckling for me really does tell me which direction I'm going in recovery. Because if I'm just trying to effort and work harder and pray more and do all the things that look like recovery without actually getting underneath the surface, then I'm just trying to hold everything together and effort my way to getting healing. And that's the same thing. I don't think that that's the healthy direction. I think that's actually the opposite. You're just going to recreate more of the issues that you've been having.

Yeah, that is really good when I think of white knuckling. Because like you said, Dr. Ted, he talks about it quite a bit. I think about how in this climate, especially in the Portland area, when we get a lot of rain and a lot of rain and a lot of rain.

How much rain here?

A lot of rain, but sometimes too much rain.

Of course, this is coming out in the summer, so by then we might all be like what it does. We forget so quickly that we're already.

Grieving the rain that's coming.

Yes, but sometimes it can make driving kind of dangerous. And I know that sometimes I feel really intentional about holding onto the steering wheel the way that I'm supposed to really tight because I don't want to go off the road. And so for me, when I think of white knuckling, it seems like I'm trying to do everything I can to maintain control in the best way. And often it's triggered by a feeling of fear that something is happening in my environment that's causing me to be afraid. And so I need to do everything within my power to be in control. And again, the part of this question is, is it helpful or harmful? Well, I think sometimes it is good. It is helpful to have an awareness of what's going on in your environment and when your brain is signaling you that something is dangerous. However, what if something really isn't dangerous? What if it's just your perception of your situation and you're still trying to hold on and control in a way that is causing you more harm than help? And so I think that that in this question is really good. It's a good piece of this question because I think that the answer is yes and yes.

Yeah.

Yeah. You know, I think of it from that struggler side that if, if you're using that example of driving a car and suddenly you're in a snowstorm, you didn't anticipate, you are white knuckling it. You're like, you're tense, your shoulders are up, you're. You're very aware of your speed and the curve and, and you need to survive and get to where you're going without crashing. So at times it is helpful if, if you're a person who has struggled with unwanted sexual behavior and you suddenly realize you're being triggered, there's a temptation like, man, grab hold of the wheel and figure out what do I need to do to get safely through this situation. On the other hand, if every time I get in my car, that's how I'm driving, it will be exhausting. It's unhealthy, it will lead to other health problems, and it's not going to be good for anybody. And so if that's our approach to recovery and to avoiding temptation, sooner or later it's not going to be enough. So in a moment of intense temptation, is it helpful? Yeah, like white knuckle it. Get through the situation, do whatever you have to do to not crash. But if that's what you're relying on is your strategy, it's just not going to work long term. And so in that sense, it is harmful. And that's why we talk about the need for group and knowing where these issues are coming from. What are My patterns, how to see them coming from a long ways away and go in a different direction. Just like the driver often looks like, if you have to drive over a mountain pass, it's wisdom to look at, is there a snowstorm coming? And go, maybe I won't go there right now. And that's like our recovery. I don't just plow into life thinking I can survive anything. I might look ahead and go, that's not a good environment for me to be in. That's a time I'm going to be alone. I need to have a plan for my devices or inviting someone over so I'm not alone. And having wisdom so that we're able to just go through life with enjoyment and not white knuckling it. So to echo what Heather said, yes, I think at times helpful and needed, but not as a long term strategy to actually live in recovery or walk in health.

Yeah. Okay, so our third question is from Irene and she asks there or she says, there are so many provocatively dressed women in video games these days. How do I help my kids when sexuality is so upfront in these games?

Yeah, a great question. And like the answer to many questions, you know, it depends. Depends on the age of your kids. I think it depends on the kind of video game we're talking about. So I think for me the starting point would just be as parents to ask like, are we creating an environment in our home where we're having appropriate conversations all along the way with our kids? So if this is coming up in a video game with a young child, it's maybe turning off the game and getting to have a conversation about why material like that is inappropriate and based on the kind of maybe questions or curiosity they have helping them understand what goes on in the brain and how we can become addicted to things like that. If it's an older kid and this is part of their pattern identifying that, do you realize this is contributing to other things? But I would also look at video games similar to how I would look at television shows and movies. There are simply movies and TV shows that as a family or with our kids, it's okay to come to a conclusion and say we don't watch that. Maybe others do. Maybe others have chosen to. They have their reasons. But in our home, that's a level we've decided we're not going to be doing that. And fortunately, in today's world, there are so many other video games out there, you can probably find something similar, whether it's a war game, a strategy game, a building game that doesn't have that content. In other games, there may be conversations where what comes up is based more on a type of skin that a character can choose or just one of the places they could go. And maybe you've had enough conversations with your kid that they're aware to avoid those. They're having good, open conversation with you. And you may feel that that's almost like a proving ground. Just like, you know, if they get a smartphone in their teenage years. Some of that is a proving ground of, like, here, here are ways within reason. I'm allowing you to make choices, and I'm trusting you to make good choices. And if you do, you get more trust and you get more freedom. But if. If I see or you tell me that you've been veering into that place, then we'll maybe have to limit those freedoms. So I think it's based on conversation. I think, again, like movies and videos. If you walk in on your kid playing a game that suddenly is very sexualized or graphic in nature, try as hard as you can not to just freak out at them and shame them, because that will shut down the conversation. But instead, look to understand like, hey, what's this game? Looks pretty provocative here. What's going on? And is this what it's always like? And can you tell me more about it? And so I think it just helps his parents to be aware of what our kids are doing and playing and then having those conversations based on their age, based on, you know, how inappropriate the game might be, and then making decisions. Is this something that we can use as a, you know, a testing ground to see if it's a. If they can handle it? Or is this just simply a type of game we say, I'm sorry, we're not playing this one.

I think we haven't reached this stage yet with our boys, but I know we have parameters around being on YouTube. Like, I'm sure some people know this who listen, but Brady and Brooks, our two sons, love Dude Perfect, and all their content's on YouTube. But because of the ads that are on YouTube, it's not safe for them to do it by themselves. And so we always. And we've set this parameter up in our house that you cannot watch YouTube unless mommy or daddy are in the room. And we've had to have some of those hard conversations, and there have to be consequences when that boundaries cross. But we've communicated to them, like, we're doing this because there's stuff on YouTube that you don't need to see that Wouldn't be helpful for you. And so we want to make sure we're protecting you. And so now you get to the point where, you know, I can hear Brady from, you know, somewhere in the house just saying, hey, dad, can we watch YouTube? I want to watch dude. Perfect. And I'll just be like, yeah, but wait till I get in. And he will. He'll wait until I get in there. And if you need to implement things like that, where you can only play this video game if mom or dad is sitting with you and watching it with you and playing it with you, then honestly, as I even say that that could be something I know for my family when I sit down and watch and I'm present with my kids, and that it's something we can enjoy together and actually helps our relationship in a lot of ways. I think you can create situations like that by putting parameters like that in place.

Yeah. And this is great for me and my kids, my boys. We're a big gaming family, and everybody even had their own Xbox and whatever. But I think that it got to a point where, because I didn't know what I didn't know, and I didn't know that in some games, not only could my kids choose their character. Right. So they could even choose to be a woman and dress her and everything else, but then also there were times when the computer just randomly selects who their opponent is, and it was some woman. And so my approach to that was because I wanted to be informed and I wanted to know what they were doing. Then it was like, oh, why don't you teach me how to play this game? And I'm horrible at video games, but yet it gave me the opportunity to see exactly what was happening and really more of the process that they had to go through in order to either get those characters or any of that. And so we did, at one point, have to make a rule that, okay, so you should just. Because for your own mental health, you need to choose a character that's male. And then if your opponent is female and she's dressed in a way that's not pleasing to the Lord, then you need to back out of that game. And so. And that was pretty an easy thing. But it wasn't until I was in the room learning how to play the game that I could understand part of the process and what it really looked like. And then I could help them to make healthy choices.

I say, thankfully, most video games have content ratings now, so you can set up your systems to block any mature games. When our kids know that if it's got a rating above, I think it's rated 13 or teen, that they need to have a conversation with us. And some of them we've looked at and been like, let's give this game a try and have conversations how it's going or other times, like, let's find a different one. And so I think using those ratings is valuable. And if it's M for mature, like there's a reason for that and just say, you know, that's not a game we're going to play. Yeah.

And even. And that's what I love about. And I don't know if people know this, but Heather is my aunt and I remember, like, I remember the rules that she put in place to play Halo with us. And one of them was, I have to be allowed to shoot at you first. You can't shoot at me until I've shot at you. So. But what I love about that is that there's an element of a parent getting in there and educating themselves on what the game is. Even if you don't have any interest in video games, just being aware of what your kids is watching is so helpful for sure.

Yeah.

Okay. The next question comes from Sage. And the question is, what do you do when your spouse is in recovery and says he doesn't need help anymore because he's, quote, clean?

That's another really good question where I'd say it depends. When a spouse says, because I've been clean, are they talking a week, a month, a year, a few years, a week or a month? I'm like, yeah, we need a track record here. One of the things we've talked about at Pure Desire is sobriety. When you're experiencing healing and freedom, getting to six months of sobriety should be part of that at a minimum. And so if your spouse isn't yet at that six month place and yet they're saying, oh, I'm good to go. There's really some premature pronouncements of healing that. Honestly, for so many of us, when we struggled, we wanted to say, oh, I'm doing so good. It's been a great couple of months. Like, well, yeah, let's look at the brain science, let's look at the research, let's look at how easy it is to fall back into that. So, you know, for us at Pure Desire, that's why we have groups that last eight, nine, 10 months, because it's a process. And so that'd be one of the questions, like if they're dropping out of a Group that's not finished yet. Encouraging, like, could you trust the process and go all the way to the end? And the other part of this question that comes to mind is when they say they're clean, do you know what that means? So in your relationship, has there been a full disclosure, an appropriate fact based reporting of this is my sexual history, these are the things I've done. And there's a sense between the spouse is like, we know what's gone on here. And so that when the other spouse says I'm cleaning, they actually know what that means. It's not like, well, I kind of thought you were before, but then you told me you weren't. And so there's so much I don't know. And I think if that's you asking the question, like, hey, how come you're not going to group anymore? You need to be able, willing to express to your spouse, here are the things that I'm observing that still create a lot of fear in me, that still make me wonder if the other shoe's going to drop. And so if you're the spouse that's on the side of being told, I don't know that I trust you yet, I think you need to be open to that. And even if you feel like, man, it's been a great couple of months, I'm good to go, I feel changed. To respect that someone in your life that loves you and knows you well is seeing things that still make them worried or fearful and you want to be attentive to that. Say, you know, if me going to group for a few more months or joining another group helps them really see the sincerity of my change within your relationship, that's going to be worth it. So the last thing I would say if they're saying I'm clean is do they have a recovery action plan? And by that we mean that they've defined specifically what's a relapse, what will they do if there's a relapse and when will they tell you and what steps will they take to learn and grow from that relapse? Because there are points I think someone who struggled could say, I'm doing well. And what they mean is, it's been a year, I'm free of relapses. I've got healthy guardrails in place, I've got men that I can reach out to and I've got a recovery plan if things start to go sideways, I know how to handle it, that it may be okay to say, I don't need to Be in group forever. And so it's not a simple answer. It's a conversation based on where things are at in the relationship. But I think those are some of the things I would look for to know. Should you take that word, say, man, there's real progress here, or is it a premature pronouncement of freedom that you maybe need to press into?

So reading into this question a little bit, I'm going to ask you guys kind of a point two question of this is like, I guessing this question is coming from a place where the spouse is not comfortable with their definition of clean or where they're at. Is it ever okay for a spouse to say, you know, at this point, I'm still not comfortable where you're at? And then asking their spouse to continue in a recovery group, is that ever okay? How do you guys feel about that?

I think that it's a depends type thing because I completely agree that this seems to be a question that somebody is concerned that they're not at the same place that their husband is at as far as what would constitute clean, that definition. But I also think that it depends on where they are at in the recovery process and their level of communication and whether or not she feels safe saying something like that. I would think that those would be important factors.

I mean, we've said at Pure Desire that if someone has struggled with any kind of habitual pattern of pornography, acting out with unwanted behaviors, that it's going to be a one year minimum process of being in group and at the end of that year to have some conversations with a group leader, with your spouse, am I ready to navigate life without that weekly commitment? And so if they're saying I'm clean prior to that, I think it is appropriate for a spouse to say, you know, in light of the behaviors that you've shared with me, the pain I'm feeling, I don't think this is appropriate for you to back out on yet. Now we don't want to get into a place where forever and always we're like, well, I don't trust you and it's been eight years and so you need to keep going to group. That might be a side for the betrayed spouse to start asking, am I working on my healing? Because I think there are some stories we hear where a betrayed spouse isn't really working on moving towards trust. They're just. They're putting it all on the addicted spouse to do all the work and somehow make them feel better. And that may be an unrealistic expectation of your spouse. So I'm not without blaming the betrayed spouse in any way or making them responsible for the behavior, the choices the struggler is made. But I would look at the betrayed spouse to say, are you working through your healing so that you're letting go of anger? You're learning? What does it mean to trust again? What are the things that you should look at in their recovery to see signs of progress or growth? Because if you're moving towards healing, that's going to give you the best perspective to perceive. Are my fears and my worry rooted in reality or are they still just rooted in the past hurt? Because we've definitely seen that situation where you've got a recovering addict who's really thriving, but a spouse that is stuck as if it's still Discovery Day. And that's not to, again, not to blame them for feeling traumatized by that. But like anyone, if you found someone who was in a car accident four years ago and when they talk about it, it's still like it was yesterday. And you say, man, it seems like this is really fresh. Have you done anything to get help to process this? Like, well, no, I just can't do that. At some point, like, we have to be willing to look at the other partner and say, are you also working through your betrayal so that you can trust again? But, yeah, I agree with you, Trevor. It does feel like this question is probably asked from a betrayed spouse that's aware of behaviors and is cautious because they don't maybe see the level of growth that the spouse says there is. And then they may want to go back to our podcast on one sided healing. Yeah, because as we said in that other answer, you can't heal for someone else. You can keep working on you and learn appropriate ways to express what you're seeing about their decisions.

And I think that this question too, and I'll just try. I know we're spending quite a bit of time on these first four questions, but I think that this is where having a group around is so helpful because the spouse could. So Sage could ask the spouse, hey, how does your group feel about that? If you're in a group context and you go to your group and you're like, all right, guys, I'm feeling like I'm in a good place. And they're all like, no, I don't like. If you get in some hesitation, then that might be something where the spouse doesn't have to work to convince, quote, unquote, this spouse to keep moving in recovery. And so this, again, is just a point to emphasize that a group experience is really helpful for both spouses in this situation.

Yeah. And then she would also have the support that she needs and she would also have a recovery action plan so that then, you know, if something happens, if he relapses, then she has a plan of how to approach that. Yep, yep.

Yeah. And that, that may be a good way to state, like, if there's a recovery action plan in place on both sides, the spouse might say, okay, you know, if you feel you're clean, that's good. But if, if you relapse, remember we've got this plan and you're going to follow it. And the truth is they're more likely to relapse outside of group and that weekly rhythm than if they're in one. And so if the consequences, the logical and rational consequences are great enough, the person in recovery doesn't want to face those. And so that can become the encouragement, like, I need to stay in group because I don't. I think I'm good, but I don't want to be wrong because the pain of being wrong and the things I've agreed to do just aren't worth it. So I'm going to keep going to make sure that I avoid having to execute that recovery action plan. Yeah, good thoughts there. I know that's one we've done podcasts on, so we could provide some numbers for follow up if people need that. Next question is kind of a long one, so let me just read this. Anonymous person wrote in and said, my husband is sexually frustrated and takes it out on the family. Irritable. The kids and I have to walk on eggshells. He says he isn't allowed to talk about it with me since we are early in our recovery process, but our whole house has to bear the brunt of it. It definitely does not feel emotionally safe and I feel like I then have to hold the blame for him and try to protect the kids. He goes to a recovery group. What should we do?

Yeah, this is a great question. It's a hard question. And I feel really bad for this family that's having to go through all of this newness. I think that it is often the way it looks for a guy who gets into group and he's in recovery and one of the first things that happens is he has to get rid of his coping behaviors, which then means that he has to cope with all of the feelings and all of life's stresses without anything. And it can be a tough process for everyone, but it doesn't make it okay. You know what I mean? It doesn't make it okay for a person to take it out on their family. And so for her, I would strongly recommend that she put some healthy boundaries in place, which is going to be hard, too. It's hard for. For a mom who's trying to protect herself and protect her kids to say, I know that you're frustrated, but you don't get to treat us this way. You don't get to bring this into our house, that this is the effect that it's having on me and the kids and it's hurting us. And even just to be able to put it in those kind of terms. But then also, like with a recovery action plan, you would have a strategy. So if he's feeling irritated before he goes home, maybe he needs to call someone in his group, and maybe he needs to meet up with them and talk through his frustrations so that then he gets in a better headspace before he goes home, you know, and just even stuff like that, which I know is hard and it takes time, but they're likely not only feeling the stress of this, but also have been feeling the stress of this. And it's hard to put new guidelines in place or new boundaries in place right in the midst of everything else that's going on. But I think that for her to start thinking that if I don't do something like this today, what's my house going to look like in a month or in three months from now if I don't put up boundaries that are going to say, I'm loving you, I'm trying to love you through this process, but what you're doing is hurting me and the kids, and I'm not going to allow it. That's tough. That's a tough thing to do. But at the same time, once you say it out loud, it gets a lot easier to say it out loud. And also, like we already have talked about, if she's in group and getting counsel from the other people in her group, that's gonna be super helpful, because a lot of women have to go through this. A lot of women have to start setting these boundaries right at the beginning. And it's doable. Even when it's hard, it's doable. So that would be just one of my recommendations for her.

Yeah. Yeah. You know, what I would say about the guy is he's probably reacting to statements he's heard that he shouldn't tell his wife his full sexual history until he's had six months of recovery. But unfortunately, he's made that a blanket statement to say, I can't tell you anything. And that's not true. We are trying to avoid you dripping piece by piece, your sexual history to her, because that repeated wounding is very, very traumatizing. But there are so many things about your recovery you could be sharing, you could be engaging to say, this is what I'm feeling. This is what's going on. I'm having anger, just realizing how hurt I was by my parents, by losing that job, by feeling disrespected, I'm navigating these emotions. I'm learning this about myself and group. All of that could be shared as you're moving towards your full disclosure. And the other truth is, if you're so stuck, like as the guy or the struggling spouse, that you're not sure what to share without getting to that moment of full disclosure, you need to fast forward to the full disclosure process. And that can be done with the help of a counselor, a CSAT Christian sex addiction therapist who can help you navigate the disclosure process so that you feel like, okay, I can talk about what's going on and what I'm feeling. Because if you're just so stuck, you don't know how to share anything without opening the whole can of worms, you need to get to disclosure, because like Heather said, you're creating an environment in your home that's just as unhealthy as the struggle itself was and is going to create more damage that needs to be worked on and repaired. So whatever you need to do to get to a place that I can start opening up about what I'm feeling, what I'm experiencing, learning better ways to navigate my anger or depression or whatever I'm feeling, then you need to do that. And if you can't, then that full disclosure may be necessary so that your spouse feels like we can be co equals in what you're battling. Because when I don't know if I'm the betrayed spouse and I don't even know what's going on, that just kind of multiplies the complexity. So one of the things we've encouraged that worked so well in our first year of recovery is having a weekly time where you sit down and talk through your faster scale. Because what's great about that is the faster scale is focused on current behavior. It's focused on this week. And when you're learning to walk in recovery, that is something you should be sharing what's currently going on with me and you can walk through even on an emotional level. What is driving me down my faster scale, which really brings the other spouse in to feel like, oh, I kind of know what's going on. I see why you're in ticked off because this happened and then you encountered this at work and then you had all these things due, you were speeding up. Now you're ticked off like, oh, and you may even find that your spouse can offer suggestions of well, could I help with this? Because I think that would take a little of that stress off your plate and now you're communicating and you're in it together. So try doing a weekly time where you share your faster scale as a way to include your spouse in the things that you're feeling and experiencing.

The only two things that I could think of are, you know, to your point, Heather, of like, have you said something to him already? I can see where, you know, he's angry, he's having a really hard time and you don't want to add to that by he's just saying like, hey, this is not working for us. You're being angry. It's hurting me and the kids. I feel like that's like the hard tension that you feel in that moment, that double bind of setting the boundary. But you have to, you have to. So have you said something to him? And if you haven't, I think saying something's really big and then just very practically, if it's not just a perpetual he's always angry and always acting harshly toward you and the kids. Are there certain times, days, are there certain things that happen throughout his week that he comes back and he's angry and if so schedule self care stuff for him or for you and the kids around that where you can be outside the house if you know that after certain meetings every week he comes home and he's upset. Like find ways to kind of hedge that in healthy ways. It might be just a practical thing. I know that might not apply to the situation, but either way it's still super hard.

Yeah. Yeah, that's good.

We also have a blog that I wrote called Honesty versus Disclosure that can really help someone think through what is the difference between not doing that dripped disclosure of my sexual history. But what does it look like to be honest currently if we're not yet to that full disclosure time? Because it's a hard, messy time. I mean in every relationship and most spouses have had some kind of premature disclosure. So they know some but not everything. So just I'd really encourage resources like that to think through. Okay, what can I start being honest about and creating a new baseline of trust in our relationship.

Yeah, that's good. So this question comes from Chuck, and he says, can gyms be a place for triggers? Since men are being called to purity, should men who have been or are struggling with porn and sex addiction to go to mixed gyms just follow suit?

Depends. I think it depends on where you're at in your recovery. Can gyms be a place for triggers? And are they often? Absolutely, of course. I mean, it's just. It's a place where, especially in our country, there's a certain type of outfit that people are gonna wear there. Usually people who are at gyms fairly often are people who are in shape and there's a reason why it's. Cause they're always there. So I think that it depends on where you're at in your struggle or in your recovery. Are you at a place where you've had some healing and some sobriety underneath your belt? Maybe you can do that. But also, I've told this story before. I had a family friend who, I remember hearing this story that he just would never go into a Blockbuster Video ever. Because every time he did, he would be tempted and then eventually he would act out within that week and he just stopped going and he got his video stuff somewhere else or had someone help him. And so I think there are a lot of ways that you can hedge this. I mean, you could do a home gym, you could go to a track, you could invite a number of people. You can go at certain times where there are less people at the gym, so you don't have to completely cut them out. But I think we just need to be aware that if we walk into a gym and we're consistently triggered, it's like a landmine. Like it's just walking through a field of them. And it's gonna be really, really difficult for you to, number one, stay healthy sexually. But also you're probably going to be distracted the whole time and not get any actually working out done. So I think it's a double whammy in that. But I think you just have to be aware and ask those difficult questions to yourself. Am I at the place where this is healthy for me? And if not, then find other ways to get that same physical fitness in.

Yeah, this connects to the tool. The arousal template can be so helpful to fill out and really look at what are the environments, locations, scenarios that do trigger my old pattern. And so what I would say, when you're walking into a gym, or if you think about it, if you Realize my brain immediately starts clicking into who's here, who's wearing what, and then what am I gonna do next? Or in the past, what did I used to do then? That is not a healthy environment for you. And looking into other ways, you know, you can buy a treadmill, you could pick up a different form of exercise. The other thing I might say is you navigate, where does this fit? On my three circles, you can have guardrails around using the gym that maybe you go to the gym, but you only go with a friend or with your spouse because it just changes how you feel about the gym. Or maybe it's the kind of gym you go to because honestly, gyms have cultures within them and some are very young people, people dressing a certain way, a kind of fit in crowd that might be really triggering for you. But other gyms that are more based on their 24 hours, there's not people there that often. Most that are there are more casual. And you might just find even the type of gym you go to makes a big difference. And one or the other may or may not be a problem. But I think the key would be communicating, communicating with group members, communicating with a spouse and asking for their input of what's going to be appropriate for me. And in your first year of recovery, it may be, I don't go to a gym because there's just too much danger. But at year two, three, four of recovery, maybe you realize there are ways that you can appropriately be a part of a gym.

And honestly, if you get pudgy your first year of recovery, it's worth it.

There are worse problems. There you go.

Yeah, I think those are great answers that you guys gave. I would also encourage somebody that if for some reason they feel like, okay, going to the gym, no matter what type of gym it is, is not for me. Give yourself time and grace in finding something that is new, you know, because I think that a lot of people when it comes to working out, that they're really rigid and there's a lot of that becomes part of their regular routine. And so if you're trying to find something that even in your first year is gonna be a substitute for that behavior, you're gonna probably go through three to five to seven things and you're gonna hate all of them. But just give yourself time and grace to find a new something new that's gonna meet that need for you.

Yep. All right. The next question comes from mc. My husband recently shared with me that the entire time we've been together, anytime there was anything physical. For 15 years, he's always been mentally in fantasy or not with me, since fantasy and sexual release have been so intertwined in his entire life. And she says since seventh grade in his case, what is really involved in rewiring and relearning to something healthier, and what risks and actions on her part might be required for a new healthier pattern to be established? Like, does she need to risk putting herself out there so that he can practice staying in the present? That's just a real easy question, too.

This is a great question.

It is a good question.

It is. And it's a question that we hear a lot, and especially for couples who are new in their recovery process. I think that this is one of the main reasons why a lot of counselors and people clinically who work with couples in this area is that they take sex off the table for 90 days. Because in order to do something different, you have to do something different. And so when you take sex off the table, it really does allow your brain to reset back to a new normal. And then from that place, then you can build on that. And I've even heard from couples that 90 days really wasn't enough, and they went for a longer period of time. And of course, it's always recommended that you work with a counselor through this process, because I think it can be a really difficult process. But then I think there is ways that once you decide to reengage in. In sexual intimacy, is to do things differently. Like, a lot of couples will decide that, okay, we're only going to do these positions, and we're only ever going to have sex with the lights on fully. No candlelight, nothing. It's just all, you know, lights on face to face so that he's looking at me, I'm looking at him. And you develop these patterns and these new behaviors around having sex. Is there a guarantee that even if his eyes are looking right at you, that he's not in fantasy? No, because we can't, you know, read another person's mind. But at the same time, if you do these things that are intentional about rewiring the brain and putting new behaviors in place, it's definitely going to help this process. But then you're also going to see a difference in the behavior. But again, working with a counselor in this is super helpful.

Yeah, I was going to say really focus on the relational connection, the emotional connection, so that when you're having sexual intimacy, it is the outcome or the overflow of the goodness of your relationship and not a substitute for it. Because I think if you're both leaning into getting to know one another, feeling connected, feeling safe, feeling supported, you know, you're, you're going on date nights, you're doing walks together, you're working on a hobby together, you're having fun, you're having good conversations. Like, then when it leads to sex, there is a sense of we are already connected and the sex is just like the cherry on top of the dessert of our relationship. And I think that for both of you is a really good thing to work towards. And the other thing I would give just, I think you need to have, if you're this spouse, permission to call time out. And really for either of you, that as you're learning to re. Engage in a way that feels safe and appropriate, there may be times or moments where the struggling spouse needs to go, man, I just realize I'm drifting to fantasy and I don't want to do that. And so let's just pause. Or for the spouse to be able to say, I don't feel like you're present. Are you here? And in being able to have that conversation. Because that is what will lead to greater confidence over time. I mean, there is some sense of, like, you may need to practice, but practice healthy things. And if that means some nights where you thought you were gonna have sex, that doesn't happen, that's okay. That's part of practicing. It doesn't always go well. But giving both of you freedom to make some of those calls like, this isn't appropriate for us right now in light of our history could be a very good thing. All right, next question. Also from MC as a follow up, says moving forward, when or if she's ready to lean into physical intimacy again, what, if anything, can she look for to reassure her that he is really in the present and not just using her while he is mentally somewhere else or mentally with someone else?

Yeah, and I think we kind of covered this in the previous answer, but even just. And we say that a lot in, in a pure desire, that emotional intimacy must precede physical intimacy. But I think that like Nick, you were describing, if you're doing those things that are creating connectedness outside the bedroom, then you're definitely going to feel it with your sexual relationship too. But there's never a guarantee.

One of the things I would say is look for the mindset or heart behind the desire for sex. Does it still feel like this is about them getting their needs met, getting their pleasure, getting, you know, I have to have it. Some of that indicates I think an unhealthy pattern. But if. If there's health going on, there should start to be a transformation of, I'm in this for you, and they're pursuing you, they're pursuing your pleasure. What makes you feel good, what makes you feel valued, safe, respected, allows you to relax and enjoy this. And. And when you're sensing that and really feel it's genuine and not just a manipulative tool that then try to get what they want, that's a really big indicator. And I think being willing to say that, like, I need to feel like you're in this for me, that you're pursuing me, and it's not just about you. That's a huge transformation that takes place in recovery.

And I think a lot of that just comes from being honest. You just really have to be honest about where you're at and be willing to share that. Because there can be a lot of frustration that happens in couples in these situations when a lot goes unsaid. And that can cause, I think, even more separation and distance in the relationship. So even if you are having sex and then decide to stop communicating about it in the moment, communicating about it the next couple of days, having conversations, I think is going to help. Okay, so what is healthy? This is the next question from Terry. What does healthy interaction look like addressing sexual brokenness or recovery issues with our adult children? Heather, you're the only one here that has adult children. Will you tell us what you think?

So this is an interesting question, and I've thought about this a bit, because there's not a ton of information in this question. But what I would presume is that maybe children were in the home when discovery or disclosure happened, and this couple's been working on recovery and healing, and now their kids are out of the home, and adults, and how would they have those conversations? And I just know from having with my kids, who are all adults, that just giving them random information is not really helpful, I think, because they're like, okay, what's up with mom? But if it was something where your kid comes to you and says, hey, I noticed that things look like they're going pretty good with you and dad, and it's a conversation that could happen organically, that would be my recommendation that then you then have the opportunity to say, you know what? Things are really going well, and this is why. But I think just to offer information that your kids don't want necessarily wouldn't be helpful. But if they are concerned or if they bring it up, or if they even Ask you. I know this was an issue a few years back. How's it going with that then? Absolutely. I would have that conversation with them. Again, not offering too much detailed information because you're still their parents and there are certain things that kids don't necessarily ever want to know about their parents. But if you're talking about how things are now healthy and better in our relationship, that would be kind of the motivation I would use for those conversations.

Yeah. And I think you need to decide, is this a conversation you're having as a couple with kids or as an individual? Because I know there are stories where the dad who was the struggler felt it was more appropriate to meet one on one with one of the kids and share their story and what he's working on and. Or other times it seemed much more appropriate that the couple was sharing together. But I think what you said there is really important, Heather, we need to identify what is the goal of doing this? Is it just to share information? And I think if that's our only goal, it's probably not going to go real well. The primary need I see is when it's about restoration within the family. Because the truth is, if you were struggling when your kids were in the home, even if you feel like they never knew it was impacting them, it was impacting them relationally, it was impacting you emotionally and how you responded to them. And I think that needs to be the heart of trying to restore a relationship, to acknowledge to adult children, to say, you didn't know this, perhaps, but here were things that I was struggling with when you were growing up. And it's, here's the work that your mom and I have been doing. Here are the steps I'm taking, here's the healing we're finding. But then towards the end of that sharing, saying, but I'm recognizing it really impacted my ability to be a dad. I was emotionally unavailable to you at times, or I was. I was gone when I was doing things that I shouldn't have been and I couldn't be there for you and I apologize. I am sorry. To me, that's the goal of it. You need to own the impact you had on your family. And here's the thing I would say too, whether your adult child responds well to that or not, I think you need to have that conversation and offer that apology. Because in the moment, and I've heard some of these stories, it may go poorly. The adult child might be angry, they might have things they need to process, and that's normal. And Very often then I get to hear the story that it comes back around that after some time to process and as the adult children continue to see growth and change in their parents marriage, it's like, you know, when you first told me I was mad, I was angry about the deception, but now I can see what God is doing. And now I realize there's stuff in my life I need to work on. So just, just be aware that the outcome in the moment might not be this happy. Tie the boy like, oh, I totally understand. We forgive, maybe, but maybe not. Maybe it will create some conflict that I believe needs to happen so that you can work towards healthy, honest relationship with your adult children.

I read this question very differently than both of you. I read it like how to address sexual brokenness and recovery in your adult children's lives. And so I'm just gonna, in case that's what was asked, I'm just gonna say good point. Very much so is, I mean, so I, as an adult, my interaction with my parents, I have found it's most beneficial and fruitful. Not when they come with advice, especially if I haven't asked for it, but with just curiosity, asking questions, trying to enter my life and get to know me and what my experiences are. And over time I found that that relationship, the more that that happens where they're not just giving unsolicited advice, because no one ever on the face of the planet is looking forward to unsolicited advice, especially from their parents. If you're an adult. So I think the more that you have that curiosity and those questions happening, my parents become safer in that moment. So that when I do have something that I need help with or because I think that that's what's hard as a parent, you know, I'm thinking about my 5 year old and my 2 year old. If I know they're gonna struggle with sexual brokenness, I want them to know they can come to me. I want them to come to me, but I can't manufacture that. I can't do the perfect formula or set it up or teach them the right things. In order to get to that point, I have to have a relationship with them that gives me enough clout and rapport with them to when they have questions or they have struggles, then they can come to me and I'm a safe person because they know I'm not just gonna throw advice at them. And that's who I've been my whole parenting hood, whatever. So I think that that's just where I would go just Again, to make sure if that's what's being asked, that's.

Where I well, and that's where these two are connected in that if I'm the parent with adult children and I've never opened up about my own sexual brokenness or things that happen in our marriage or steps we took to recovery, it's not going to go real well. If I'm trying to instill that in my adult kids were like, well, you know, what the heck, you've never struggled or brought this up or now you're trying to tell me what to do. And so I think when we're able to, out of our own story, share I love you, I care about you, and if there's any way I can help or support you. And we have cool stories of adult children who come here for counseling because a parent offers to help pay for it, or told them about pure desire and just said here's the number and when you're ready, I hope you'll reach out so you can have a role. But I think if it comes out of your own story, that's gonna be the best connection.

And that's an interesting perspective, Trevor. Cause I didn't read it that way, but in thinking of it that way, I completely agree that the relationship has to be there beforehand. And then also as a parent, I know that when my kids have come to me about and we had a very open household and we talked about sexual stuff all the time, but the conversation changed even as my kids got older and they started dating. And even as a parent, knowing your kid like one of my kids, he doesn't really like conversation very well, but if he wants it, he'll come and ask for it. And so if he would even put a tiny question out there, I would give him a tiny answer and let him just process that. And then within the next day or two he would come back. And so our conversation that could have taken 20 minutes takes about two weeks. But it's because of the way that he processes information. And so I think that that's an important piece to this, that almost no matter what you're talking about, the way that your kid is going to respond best because of who they are as a person is going to be your very best approach when it comes to helping them navigate life.

For sure.

Yeah, that's good. Okay, here's our last question. How do you relate to others in group when you experience same sex attraction and they don't?

What comes to mind for me in this question is how for every single person that I've ever had in group, there is a part of their story and there's a part of my story that in my shame and in my past, I feel like makes me different, makes my story unique. It's like, yeah, I mean, that's the normal stuff, but I also have this. And if your piece of the story is same sex attraction, I think that's what may be helpful to keep in mind that maybe not everyone in the group shares same sex attraction, but they do share that sense of there's something about my sexuality that makes it unique or hard or different for me to be in this group. And if you're the leader especially, I think that's what I try to emphasize, that if someone shares a struggle, whether it's same sex attraction or fetishes or a type of behavior they engaged in, that's, you know, beyond anything you've experienced, to try to create that connection around, you know, I know what it's like to have a part of our story that feels uniquely disqualifying or different. And I just want you to know you're safe here. This is an appropriate place. Now, as always, if you're the one struggling with same sex attraction, we do ask the question, can you be in group and not be triggered by other men in the group? If you're still in that kind of vulnerable place, probably need to start with some counseling first until you get to a place that you think you can be healthy in that environment. But for the majority of people dealing with same sex attraction, they say, oh, no, in that kind of environment, I'm good. That's not a trigger for me. I think we just have to be able to lean in. And as you've shared so often, Trevor, in your own story, if we're willing to open up that part of our story that we feel is unique or different, how often others will go, oh, me too. And then you're like, wait, what? I thought I was the only one. And that's what the enemy tries to tell us. But we're not alone. And if you happen to be in a group where in that group of five, six men or women, you are the one, that that's your story. Again, lean into that. Everyone does have pieces of their story that make them feel different. And if we can share that, then we can really benefit from the support of the group.

I feel like in my experience, because I have a couple of guys I know that I stay in touch with that have same sex attraction, and I know one conversation that the ongoing conversation that we have is oftentimes he'll ask me a question like, do you ever feel this? And I'm like, yes. And he's like, what? You do? And I don't know if it's culturally. I don't know if it's culturally like the church, you know, specifically, or the world broadly, but there's this, I don't know, implication that if you struggle with same sex attraction, especially if you're a man, that you're. That doesn't make you manly. You don't like manly things. And it's like, that's not true. You know, Like, I would say, growing up as an athlete, I felt like I was an alpha male type of person, but I also felt really deep emotions and often felt tons of shame over that. Like, does that make me more feminine? You know, Like, I remember I lived with my aunt and uncle down in Salem, Oregon for a period of time. And they had. They have all girls and every single night they'd sit around their living room and they would just talk. They call it circle time and they just talk. And I didn't really grow up in a family who did that, but I found myself, like, desiring and craving circle time because I wanted that. And I was like, does this make me, like, different? Is this weird? Like, but it's. No. I just. I think we're so dynamic and complex. But if we're willing to maybe take a glance at what those expectations or assumptions, maybe of our gender or stereotypes or whatever are, and then start to ask questions like, hey, do you ever feel something like this? Or have you ever had an experience like that? We'll actually find that there's a lot that unites us. There's a lot of shared experience there. And I think fear is kind of what keeps us from stepping out and exploring all the similarities we have. So to Nick's point, if you're comfortable in groups, you're going to find with other people that they have a lot of the same experiences and a lot of the same fears and a lot of the same shame that they carry from their behavior. So just to be. Just to know that it's going to be a safe place, it may just take that courageous step of really asking and opening up.

Yeah. And I think too, just remembering that the way that our sexual brokenness manifests itself is going to be different for all of us because it has to do with who we are and our environment and our brain and all of these different variables that all contribute to it. And it doesn't make one thing worse than the other thing. It just is that for some people, this is what it looks like, and then for other people, this is what it looks like. And so just keeping in mind that, I don't know, our behaviors are on a spectrum and we all have these parts of our story that we don't like, but we're trying to figure out and figure out where they come from. And I think that being in group is a great place for all of us.

Absolutely. That wraps it. That was a long one. We know it. But we love these episodes. We love. Yes. And that's what's just so great, is it feels like we actually get to hear from. And we are. We get to hear from our listeners and they have things they've been thinking about, chewing on. Want to know our perspective. And so we hope that we answered the questions and I hope that it fuels more questions. If you want to submit those questions for future FAQ episodes and get our take on them, there's a couple ways you can do it. You can email your questions to podcasturedesire.org or you can message us DM us on any platform with your questions. Hev, we usually bring you on here for sure for, like, the women's perspective and the brain stuff, but it's always cool just to hear more of your story, too, as we wrap episodes like this. So thanks for being with us.

Yeah, I love these. They're my favorite.

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