262 - Understanding Our Unwanted Behaviors w/ Jay Stringer

Welcome to the Pure Desire Podcast, helping you take back your life from unwanted sexual behavior and betrayal trauma. Hello.

Hello.

I'm your host, Trevor Windsor, and you're listening to episode 262 of the Pure Desire podcast. Here joining me as always, is my co host, Nick Stumbo.

There are strange things done in the midnight sun by the men who moil for gold. The arctic trails have their secret tales that would make your blood run cold. The northern lights have seen queer sights but the queerest they ever did see was on the night of the marge of Lake LaBarge. I cremated Sam McGee.

Is there more?

Well, there are 15 stands.

I mean, I feel like I could. I could totally. It's like, do I say something? Do I not? I have no idea. I mean, it sounds vaguely familiar and that probably makes me sound uncultured, but what is that?

It's one of those things I pull out, like if there's a talent show or like, you know, you're sitting around a fire and there's just that lowland conversation. It's a poem I had to memorize in freshman English class, freshman year of high school. Yeah, yeah. We had to go stanza by stanza and learn all 15 stanzas of this poem by Robert Seward, I believe, called the cremation of Sam McGee. Really unique poem. And just because it's interesting, I remembered it and I would, you know, I'd tell it to my kids at night. I would tell it around a campfire, just. Yeah, ask my family, like, oh, brother, not that again.

Yeah, I feel like it's one of those things where it's just like, you don't remember my birthday, but you remember this poem from. It's like one of those random things that we remember. I have a few of those. I'm not going to talk about them, though. We had today. Is it good? I don't know what that means. Today we had Jay Stringer, who's a good friend, buddy of ours and the ministry. We love his work. Author, therapist, minister, just a stud all around. And we had him on, really, to just explore what he's been studying, talk more about his book Unwanted, and some of the stuff that he's found with people revisiting their past and their history and their unwanted behaviors. And honestly, we also talked about him being one of our featured speakers at the summit this year.

Yeah, we are very excited to have Jay out at the summit. And I think his book Unwanted has really been a game changer for a lot of people and how they view their struggle, how they define recovery. And understanding the power of our story. And rather than trying to run away from lust, to actually understand it so that we can move through it. And that's actually what made me think of that intro. If you listener go and read or find the poem the cremation of Sam McGee, it really ends with a twist. It really turns around the whole story. And that's, I think, what Jay does so well and why we're excited to have him as a speaker. Because when we think about being all in on our recovery, I think what comes to mind for most of us is we're like, okay, if I'm all in, it's kind of this like bring all this energy and gumption and just like white knuckling. Yet I'm gonna go after it really hard. And I think all in, especially as Jay describes it and you hear a lot of it in this episode, that all in is less about kind of this like mental, emotional, physical energy and more a mindset, more an understanding of cooperating with what God's doing in my life and walking towards something versus away from something. It kind of changes the picture. And so I think it's a wonderful interview that we have here. And for those that know Jay, this just is going to build on your appreciation for his work. And if this is your introduction to Jay Stringer, we'll have the link to the unwanted book in the show notes because I'm sure you'll want to go pick it up after this.

Yeah, Jay is just a great guy to talk to and his content is always excellent. I just appreciate his work so much. Okay, well, before we get to our time with Jay, subscribe to the podcast to say it every week, but just do it. We're on all the major platforms and also follow us on social media. DesirePDMI. We're on Facebook, Twitter and Instagram. You can also watch this full episode if you want to see Jay sitting in his New York apartment having this conversation with us. The episode will be up on YouTube. Just search Pure Desire Ministries. I wanted to make a comment about like him and his luxurious hair. Cause I really did like his hair. But I feel like one listener is gonna be like, why do we have to comment on someone's physical appearance? Anyways. And our producer Justin is now side eyeing me because he has much longer hair than Jay does and is assuming that the same principle should apply. Hey Justin. We'll talk off air. Ok, lastly, and just it feels like a good time to bring it up because Jay is a speaker. We have the Pure Desire summit this year, September 16 and 17. And we've got a lot of ways for people to attend this event and take in all the content and join us. So why don't we talk about it a little bit, Nick?

Yeah, we do mention the summit just a couple of times in this episode.

We had to carry the two.

I think at one point, Jay, his content doesn't convince you to come out. You know, there's so many other reasons to get to be out in the Portland area with the Pure Desire staff. And we promise you a riot free experience.

Oh God, do you hear that a lot from people?

There is a very, very negative perception of Portland nationally right now. And I understand why, just what's in the news. But I think that's what I want to say truthfully to our listeners. What you hear in the national media is just a tiny part of Portland. And by and large, we're still a wonderful place to visit.

Yes, we are.

The place where the summit is held and where our offices are at. We're really on the very eastern edge of town, right up against the Columbia River Gorge. And downtown Portland feels like a world away. And so if you do have concerns about some of the unrest you've heard about, you're likely not going to encounter any of that. What you're going to encounter is our smiling staff, a great group of people that are engaged in their healing and the encouragement that is to you. So September is honestly maybe the best month to be in Oregon. So if you can get here, we'd love to have you come. But if not, we have the opportunity. You can join from home virtually. You could gather with a small group or we're even going to have a couple of host sites that might be in your area. So one way or another, we just feel this is the kind of weekend and event that whether you're able to be at it and get it all in one weekend or you're going to end up getting the streaming videos and watch them later. It just gives us that boost. It gives us that perspective that I think we all need. Because over time in recovery, there can be fatigue, right? There can be kind of a loss of vision, like, why am I doing this? We talk in the episode today. It's hard work. And the summit is about helping all of us remember why this is so important, not only in our own lives, but how God could use us to be a change agent in the world around us. So join us at the summit. We'd love to have you.

And if you're that one person out there who enjoys riots and wants to come check it out. That's another great reason to come to Portland. Check it out.

I'll give you the address.

If you want to register, whether in person, person online, or at a site host, you can go to PureDesire.org summit22 and register today. All right, here's our time with Jay Stringer talking about unwanted behaviors, revisiting our past and what he's going to be talking about at the summit. Jay Stringer, welcome back to the Pure Desire podcast. Man, we're super excited to see you again.

Trevor and Nick, thank you so much for having me on. So, so fun to be back with you both.

We just. I mean, before we even started recording, we were talking like, it's been a while. You were in our sexual integrity 101 video course. We've had you speak at a men's event, you know, and spoiler alert, we've already heard it so far in the episode. You'll be a speaker at this year's summit. And we just. Man, we're fans of you, but I feel like sometimes you say that and you mean that about someone's work specifically. But honestly, for us, we're fans of who you are as a man. We just love you and your friendship. And yes, the work that you do is amazing. But even just before we started recording, it's like, I just want to talk to Jay. I don't even want to record this episode. Like, let's just chop it up and have some conversations. So we're excited for our time together today. But, Jay, we've done a couple episodes with you before, and as I've said, some of our audience is familiar with you. But for those listeners maybe that haven't heard the episodes we did a couple of years ago with you and don't know much about your work. Can you just tell them a little bit about yourself and the work that you do?

Sure, absolutely. I mean, first off, just to respond to your kind words, I feel the same way. I mean, there are some events that you go to that you either fly into, drive into, and you're like, I cannot wait to leave here. But then there's also ones where it's like, I think I'm more looking forward to McMenamins before or after with you guys. And that's a. That's a good conference and colleagues to have. So grateful for both of you. Thanks as well. So, yeah, when last we talked, I was living in Seattle and we moved across the country to New York City in The middle of the pandemic. So one of the first friends that I met here in New York kind of just referenced a lot of the times when you see a hurricane coming through Florida and all the cars are going north on I95, and then there's a couple stragglers going south. And, you know, it raises the obvious question, who are these idiots?

Why are you coming in?

And so he's like, you are that car. So it's been very similar to that, just disrupting our lives, our friendships, communities. Been a bit of a circus, but it's also been a city that we have just fallen in love with and can totally imagine a life here for at least a decent amount of time. So married to my wife, Heather, we met in grad school. She's also a psychotherapist. So a lot of friction, conflict in the early days, engaging one another. But I think it's gotten a lot better. Stop analyzing me. That's right.

I'm not your client.

Projection, Projection.

It sounds like a joke. Honestly, it sounds like a joke. Like, so two psychotherapists get married. Like, that's the first line of.

Yeah, very good.

Exactly. Yeah. And we have two kids, seven and nine. And so that's, you know, most of family life. And then in terms of my work life, I would say, like, the main thesis of my work is that, you know, the difficulties and the antagonists of our lives don't have to be a life sentence to shame or struggle. They can actually be a roadmap to healing. And so the first book that I wrote really dove into that concept of what can we learn from an area like sexual brokenness, struggle with porn, extramarital affairs, and really just did some research to kind of say, you know, can the problems that we're going through actually provide clues into the healing that we most need? That's the sense that I want people to have from my work is this profound sense of curiosity of what about this do I not yet understand? And how can some of that understanding and curiosity lead to a much more kind and curious approach to healing?

Yeah. And I know, Jay, you are connected to Dan Allender and the Seattle school and are you still have connections there? Are you doing this on your own now, having built off of that? What's your connection to the Dan Allender group?

So, yeah, still my. I will see Dan next week. We do something. He's been running what are called men's recovery weeks for, I think, like 25 years. And so that is a group of 15 men that go to A retreat for about a week. And we do an incredible deep dive into their story of sexual abuse. And so, I mean, as you all know this really well, sometimes when men get into a type of crisis, it's the porn, it's the unwanted behavior. But then as you begin to dive into where are the pain, what's the story beneath that? Oftentimes it's some spectrum of sexual abuse. And so this is just really beautif. Holy indeed terrifying week for some of these men. But I see Dan at those each year. And then we collaborate here and there, but no longer officially kind of with the Islander Center. My wife still works with them. So dear friends, dear colleagues, a lot of alliances, but I don't receive, what is that, a 1099 from them.

There you go.

Anymore.

So, yeah.

Well, that's awesome. And I think a lot of people know you from your book Unwanted or maybe the work you did on the follow up study for the Heart of Man film. And they've seen you in those areas and those are great projects that I think continue to impact a lot of lives, but also projects that were done several years ago now and so catch us up on like, what is your area of maybe focus right now or study? Are there books or projects in the works that you'd like to tell our listeners about that are taking up your focus in the more current days?

It's such a good question, one that I have so much existential angst over. I feel like at my core I'm an explorer. I want to go into space, I want to go to the fringes, to the edges to ask the questions, to learn what hasn't been learned yet. But this work of unwanted, I just didn't anticipate the amount of work and demand that it would create. And so they don't teach you how to run a business and kind of create offerings in grad school. So that's been a lot of the last couple years. I was actually talking to an agent pretty recently and he said, you know Jay, you probably should be on your second or third book. And I'm like, I know, but I haven't been able to prioritize that. So I'm really hoping in the next year to prioritize a lot more writing, a lot more research. So, you know, we get a lot of requests around, you know, something like hypo active sexual desire, which is like when you have low or no sexual desire, kind of like you feel like you need a defibrillator for your sex life. And so we've Been looking into kind of what can we learn from that? Because a lot of times like there's one marriage therapist that talks about when anyone gets married or enters into a partnership, there will always be a high desire partner and a low desire partner. He calls that a rule. And so what happens a lot of times with high and low desire partners that that they begin to pathologize one another. Like you want sex too much or you want it too little. And then the shadow side of high desire can be compulsive. Right. So if I'm not going to get my needs desires met, I'm going to go into hiding and secrecy and kind of get some payback there. Or hypoarousal could be like, I'm just tired of being badgered by this and I need to be able to have a no in order to have a meaningful yes. So I want to dive into kind of what can we learn from hypoarousal as well instead of just pathologizing it as a disorder or just someone trying to withhold sex from someone. I think there's so much more going on. And then the major work that I'm working on is a little bit of a follow up to unwanted. But I want to create a very holistic framework for how we can understand sexual and relational difficulties. So part of that is like, you know, you can get some books to learn about sexual health and kind of how anatomy works and how techniques and bodies to kind of increase pleasure. You can get your addiction book through your compulsive behavior book to learn about the past. You can get some emotionally focused work or couples work. You can get some on the process of differentiation or how does creativity and sexuality combine. But there's no work out there that I know of that kind of combines a holistic framework. And I think that's really central to why were just stymied installing in holistic growth. I think sexual difficulties are exceedingly normal. I think relational difficulties are how we grow. But we have either pathologized them or normalized them without kind of building a holistic model. So that's where I'm going hopefully next is let's bring a lot of models together so that people have the potential to learn their story and learn development from a non pathological approach.

So yeah, as I hear you say that I'm thinking like I'm really excited for this book to come out in eight years because it's such a big topic that you're going to address.

Yeah.

What can we do to help you write Those books. That's our question. Because I think both of those projects you described are spot on in terms of, you know, obviously pure desires in the recovery realm. And I think sometimes inadvertently, there can almost be a feeling of, well, if we can just help you get healthy, if we can help you go beyond the compulsive habits you've had and live with really healthy guardrails in your life, there's almost an assumption that, like, well, from there things will just work themselves out, but really that's only, like, the first stage of recovery. And then there's all these questions of how do I connect with my spouse and how do we relearn healthy rhythms? And the material on that is really sparse. And so that's exciting. And the. The hypoarousal. Yeah, the other side of. For almost every sex addict or porn addict that we're working with, there's another side of the equation that's because of that often been leaned in the other direction. And again, we may just assume that, well, if you can get the addict healthy and working beyond their struggles, then the other spouse will probably just lean back in and they'll find a good routine. Which isn't always the case because we do so frequently hear those couples, and I'm sure many are listening to this podcast, going, amen, brother. Write the book, because we're getting healthier. But our sex life is still just not happening because there's that hypo arousal as you described. So it's exciting to hear you're delving into those, and it's great.

And that's been the failure, I think, of the addiction community, but also the mental health community is. I mean, that assumption, Nick, is so spot on. We have kind of, you know, this sense of, like, if we get emotionally connected, then desire will just take care of itself. And that's just not true. And that's where I love that language of there's always going to be a high desire and a low desire partner. And that becomes part of the work of how do you hold on to the desire that you have without becoming a badger? But also, you know, someone's high desire to a low desire might push that other person to a level of growth. And I think that's what we need. The invitation to see is that it's not just that your marriage is broken or just never going to recover. It's that, like, difficulties are how we grow. And so in many ways, the marriage is doing exactly what it's supposed to do, which is to, you know, get out, get People out from hiding. But then after the hiding and the secrecy, then becomes the really difficult work of relational growth that we haven't learned yet. So this is. I mean, it's kind of like compounding interest of a loan. Like you got to start making a payment or it's just going to keep. Continue to compound with time.

So, yeah, that's so good. And I mean, even as you say that, I think. I think that it's interesting that the difficulty that people, when they enter into that space in their marriages, that actually their addiction or the unwanted behavior is a way to avoid having to get into that discomfort. And whether we know that in the moment or not, it's a way to keep it at arm's length. For sure.

Yes.

Okay.

So.

And this is. I mean, this is your wheelhouse. So just over time, you know, through your research of unwanted and writing the book, and then now afterward, oftentimes when it comes to our sexual history, we spend so much time avoiding it, not looking at it, trying to run away from it. So why, in your opinion, should we face our story? And honestly, how do you get people who've been running away from it for years, even decades, to understand why, like, they're avoiding it and then why they need to turn and face it?

Yes. So two things come to mind. I mean, I think the first is my own story. So a lot of context that I could bring you into. But if I were to bring you into kind of my sexual relational life and seminary, two kind of stories come to mind. The first is that a lot of the porn search that I was making had to do with kind of the theme of mothers or women that were older than me. So that was always kind of very perplexing to me, like, why am I drawn to this theme? And then when I was in grad school, I had a good friend of mine who said to me, she said, jay, I feel like you are a candy man. And I said, what are you talking about? And she said, it's like you have this emotional candy that you are offering out to so many different women that, you know, where you kind of build relationships really quickly and you get really intimate really fast, and you ask, you know, a lot of great questions, but it also kind of leads me on and also kind of makes some other friends of ours essentially uncomfortable with the way that I was showing up. So, you know, if I had gone into therapy or into a group, that's my current story, which I think is true for a lot of us. Potentially listening is like, you know, I'VE got a porn search or an affair archetype that I keep seeking out. And you've got to ask that question, like, what is happening in my story? But then also, when you think about your style of relating to the same sex, the opposite sex, like, where does all that come from? So as I began to kind of do some work around my story, part of the themes that came back to me was I can remember being at my kitchen table growing up. And I remember it was a Thursday night because my dad, who is a Presbyterian minister, was gone the night before at a session meeting with all of the elders of the church. And so I remember getting this phone call. It was dinner time, and we didn't pick up the phone in our family almost ever. That continues to be a trait of mine to this day.

So if you call Jay, it's nothing personal?

Nothing personal.

Some family history at work.

Exactly.

That's right.

Yeah. My father made me do it, and, you know, it went to the answering machine. And part of what I began to hear was this elder's wife began to cry with regard to disclosing that her husband had just had an affair or she had just found out about it. And I remember watching kind of my parents go into crisis mode. I knew that my dad was going to be leaving that evening to go be with the elders, try and figure out a lot of the crisis management that needed to unfold. But my role in my family was to watch my mom's face, and I could tell that she was angry. I could tell that my dad was prioritizing ministry again at the cost of kind of, you know, the home. And just in the midst of their marital binds and difficulties and, you know, honoring the church, but then also trying to honor our family. There was tension in the home. And so part of my role in my family would be to do dishes with my mom, go shopping with her, ask her how she was doing with dad working so much, or just if there was anything I could do in terms of vacuuming the house or any errands that I could help run. And so although, like, my mom and I's relationship was not kind of what we would understand to be like, sexual abuse, that way of relating to a mother, that way of knowing kind of where women are struggling and going through a lot of difficulty, I learned that beginning in my childhood. And so if I did not build the bridge from the present to the past, I would have consigned my life to just trying to fight and manage a behavior without understanding any of the real war that I was in. So, you know, the invitation here is to be a bridge builder. So if you are tired of just trying to. To manage your sexual life, tired of kind of just making New Year's resolutions, that this is the year that you're going to quit, you have to be really curious to be able to say, why am I aroused by this? What is it about this particular porn search or this particular type of person that is so appealing to me? And so I think that's the, you know, the humility, but also the curiosity to be able to say there's so much more going on in this story. That's the invitation is to build the bridge from the present to the past. Then I think the second thing I would say comes from neuroscience and leaders like Peter Levine, Bessel, Van der Kolk. But this notion that trauma almost rarely. I'm trying to think how they would say it. Trauma does not always come back to us as a memory. It comes back to us as a reaction. And so a lot of times people are saying, well, I don't remember a lot, or I can't really remember kind of all the details of my life. But the reality is that our reactions are telling a story. So when you begin to think about, I don't know how to be alone without sexualizing some of that loneliness and fear, well, there is a story there. It might not be a particular memory, but the reaction of feeling anxious or the need to kind of Murphy with sexual behavior is telling you a clue into the potential abandonment or the potential disengagement of your family. Or maybe you find yourself kind of exceedingly angry with your kids or exceedingly angry when someone doesn't come through for you. That reaction is actually providing clues to you with regard to something that has been unresolved. And so the story approach is being able to say, I think, as William Faulkner says, the past is not past. The past is not dead. It's not even past. It's playing out in this present moment. And for me, that's. The far more generative approach is I don't want to engage a struggle without meaning. I want to understand my story and transform that story.

I think it's powerful to consider how we connect with our past, that we are in so many ways, we talk about this, we're a byproduct of our family of origin, the environments we grew up in. And I think we see that maybe more easily on the positive side, like how it shaped me to be the man I am today or the woman I am today. And When I think about how to help people who don't want to face that, I think that can be a helpful approach to look at. Can you see in all the good ways that you've been shaped and formed, when you see the connection, it gives you an appreciation for, oh, this is why I'm confident in these situations, or this is why I feel the boldness to take on that big task where others maybe don't. And we can appreciate what's been built into us in a positive way. So we can just flip it around and say, well, what if, in the same way, there were negative things that got built into you that are creating your negative reactions or your struggles, and if we could understand where it comes from and to a degree, even have an appreciation for the way it was shaping you, then we have a lot more tools and resources to go through a reshaping or to start to write that story differently, because we know some of the source material versus feeling like we're just picking up a movie halfway through and trying to figure out what the heck is going on when we don't even know a character's backstory.

That's true. One thing. This is just the visual that comes to mind. It's almost like your story or your history is like a key to really translate what actually has happened in your life or where you're at currently. Like, I think of, like, a cipher. You know, you talked about movies, and I just went to like, oh, you know how people write, like, all these messages and then there's a cipher. It's almost like that's what it is, that your history actually has all these. And this is maybe to steal some language from you. It's like keys to unlock our understanding of our story now why we are the way that we are. You know, as you say that, I've been thinking a lot recently about this in my own life, where if someone make some decision that actually inconveniences me or somehow adds difficulty, even though I know that person and they maybe aren't detail oriented or might miss something like that, I have this huge reaction. It's as if they would have punched me in the mouth. And I have that. It happened a couple weekends ago, and it like. And Justin was involved, and he's sitting right here, our producer, so he's probably laughing. But I had this huge reaction to something that really, at the end of the day, is not a big deal. But to your point, what that's revealing is that there's something from my history that has taught me when that happens, your value. People don't value you. They don't care about you. Your needs aren't important or necessary. And so it is interesting. That's just maybe a personal story of how I've seen that play out, even last weekend.

Yeah, I mean, two things on that would be. I mean, to Nick's point, this notion that means a lot to me is like, that of honor and honesty. And I think of those two things as two sides of the same coin. So I think of, like, you know, someone like the person of Abraham. Like, we can honor that Abraham left, you know, the land that he needed to leave in order to go into this new land that God was calling him into. We can kind of say that he is the father of our faith. And at the same time, we also know that he was essentially a bona fide coward that tried to traffic his wife a couple times. And Scripture permits that. And then you get to Psalm 88 that kind of essentially ends with, like, darkness is a closer friend than you. Oh, God. And that's called worship. And so I think the scripture is always inviting us to, like, if you cannot really be honest about what you have suffered, how your parents have sinned against you, you're not actually being honest or loving. And I think that's the really tough teaching from Jesus. Unless you leave your mother and your father, you can't follow me. And that is really this question of, you know, where is your loyalty? And sometimes we can be so loyal to protecting this image of our mother, our father, our family, rather than, you know, opening our hands to this notion that God wants to bring good care and comfort to a lot of the stories that we would prefer to protect our parents from. So I think that's so crucial. And then I think the, you know, I know some of the suspicion around, like. So wait, so every reaction that Trevor had to punch someone or Jay had is just from the past, and it's like, yes, but. But no. I mean, this is. This is a matter of like, the window of tolerance. Right. So the window of tolerance is the sense of, like, do you go into what they refer to as the red zone, where you become really angry, really militant, kind of fight or flight? Or we have something called blue zone, which is when you go into just like forlorn, depressed, kind of a Monday blues of I don't want to do anything with my life. That will happen regardless of the family of origin that you came through. But I think the key question is when you were in your red zone moment as a child. And angry and just kind of upset at the world around you. Did you have parents that pathologize that and kind of have shamed you for having that? Well, if they did, you never got the opportunity to work through really difficult emotions. Or let's say that you were in the blue zone a lot. I think of middle school as just a terrible experience for so many of us. And just that sense of, did you have parents that were willing to see some of the sadness that, you know, maybe you. You left for school and you seemed okay, but then when you came home, something was off in your face and did have parents that inquired about that. And so when we go through good families that are attuned and don't shame us and don't ignore us, we learn how to work with really difficult emotions. So difficult emotions will always be there. But in good families, we learn how to move into those emotions without being highly reactive, but also not through ignoring them. So that's the invitation. It's not about blaming our family of origin, but it's like understanding where are the deficits that, as Nick said a lot of things that my parents did so well. My dad would always read multiple books on theology and psychology at his bedside table. So whenever the converse we would have conversations, they would be around this integration between theology and psychology. Well, what am I doing with my life today? It comes from that story with my dad. But I also know that if I didn't have those theological and psychological conversations with my dad in middle school, we didn't have much of a relationship. And that's where I have to both honor my dad, but then also be honest with my grief of I didn't have a relationship with my dad if I was not at the level of the competence of an elder of his church. Right. Wow.

Yeah. So we're already kind of talking about this a little bit, Jay, but if anyone follows you regularly or you know is on your website, they're going to see this concept of outgrowing porn or outgrowing our unwanted sexual behaviors. Why do you think that's such a crucial concept? Particularly in an era where most of what we've gotten in the church is for us, growing up in the 90s and 2000s is a lot more of the battle imagery. The victory, the fighting for freedom, the conquering. I mean, Ted Roberts showing up on the Conquer series. Just that theme of victory over our sin, which can kind of make sense to us, but maybe doesn't always give us an accurate picture of what recovery should be. So talk a Little bit about why that concept about growing our struggles is such an important idea to you.

Yes. I mean, you're right. Just even as you kind of give all the militant, warlike language. I mean, we want to see ourselves as victors. I mean, history is not written by the losers. It's written by those who have conquered and won. So I think there is something of just our ego that, like, we want to conquer, we want to win, to kind of give us this impression that we are far more powerful than we are. But I think this notion of outgrowing is. Is that, like, healing takes so much time, and it often goes far deeper and ends up being far more beautiful than we could ever ask or imagine. And so this notion of outgrowing is saying, like, trying to stop something. Just the just say no to drugs campaign, I believe, actually increased drug use among current drug users. But the whole project of just say no completely failed. And so I think part of what we need to say with our unwanted behaviors is, you know, there are different stages to this. We need to kind of be honest about what we are struggling with, what we're dealing with in life. But then we need to get really curious as to why are these things manifesting in our lives. How does this highlight unresolved pain, unresolved difficulties? And so that's the approach, is that you will go so much further if you think about this in terms of how can I eventually outgrow this thing, instead of how can I just kind of quit this thing once and for all? Yeah.

And I love that part of it. I love that you're on a spectrum or you're on a map going one direction or the other. You're not. I've already won, and it's done. It is a. And I've thought about this a lot, too, in my life, like, which direction am I heading, what habits this is. What we talk about in recovery is so important, is what are the habits you're putting in place to push you down the road in the direction you want to go, versus just stopping a behavior? And that's the whole thing we talk about not just changing a behavior, but changing the way we do life. And it's that directional stuff that we're.

Talking about, you know, Or I think of the sports analogy when it comes to winning. In my mind, one of the worst things about winning is that there's another game the next day, the next week, the next season. Like, even if you win the super bowl, you were champions for a season, but then a new day or A new season starts, and you got to do it all over again. And I actually hear that from men and women in this area of recovery that they'll be like, I had victory, and I had a great year. And then something came up, and I found I was right back in it. And every time, they're fighting some of the same battles all over again, and sometimes they're successful and sometimes not. But there's not really a clarity of, why am I doing this? What's going on? What are the deeper things at work? And I think that's what you're talking about, Jay, is in outgrowing that, there's a process of understanding our story, a process of maturing, a process of having more resources and tools, that we're not fighting the same battle every time. It's actually changing because we are growing and we are changing, and that doesn't mean we get to a place where we're just totally immune from weakness or hardship, because we're still human. But I really think, as you're saying, Trevor, we can begin to live life differently with this kind of mindset versus just, I'm going to win for a day, and then tomorrow I have to figure out how to win again.

Mm, yep. Exactly. Yep. Yeah. I mean, I. The image of, like, training wheels came to mind as you all were talking, but just this notion of, like, you know, we are going to struggle. We're not always going to ride a bike or anything that we try out the first time in a very easy or elegant fashion. But, you know, we don't want to always keep training wheels on because we want increased levels of. Of freedom. So it's not about, you know, it's about outgrowing our need for training wheels so that we're actually free to go into the directions that we ultimately want to go into. And so I think of, you know, things like porn and unwanted behavior as just such a thief to joy. And so sometimes that's, you know, the motivation to outgrow it is to be able to say, yeah, I understand what it symbolizes, but far more, this thing, it certainly has given me some reprieve from the difficulties of my life, but far more, it has stolen some of the greatest years of my life, and I want to outgrow it so that I'm actually free to live. Yeah.

So. And part of outgrowing it, I mean, truly, is like our summit this year, our Pure desire summit, which Plug, Plug, Plug. You are going to be one of the speakers at which we're very, very excited. We'll have the link in the show notes. You can go register. It's gonna be a big deal. But one of the things of, like, outgrowing porn is really changing your mindset to recovery, and it's going all in. That's what we're focusing on in the summit this fall. So what keeps people from your opinion and your experience from going all in on recovery? And what do we do when you recognize that you're working with someone who's only really just trying to put the bare minimum in. In, like, I'm just going to do this much and it's going to be enough? Like, how do you handle that situation?

Yeah. Yep. A couple things come to mind. The first is that I want to privilege that person's resistance to going all in. And I think that that's part of what we were talking about earlier is I think there is a problem in our field that when people begin to get into this work, it feels very depressing, honestly. Like, people kind of get a sense of like, I'm never going to be out of this. I'm going to be in meetings for the rest of my life. And it's a pathology, you know, pathology based focus. And so sometimes when I meet with people who have been through groups for a really long time, I kind of think of like, you know, if we were to just imagine like, someone's backyard, and let's say that that backyard used to have a lot of unwanted sexual behavior in it. And then they kind of bring their gospel version of weed killer, and they're just spraying their whole entire backyard down. And they're like, look at me. I'm sober for six years and I haven't had a relapse. And then it's like, but your entire backyard is barren. There's nothing back there. And so I think part of what we need to invite people into is not just a level of sobriety, not just the level of, like, we're going to work with trauma, but we need to offer a vision of a backyard that becomes something of a garden for people to eat their food from, to be able to find life and joy in the midst of everything that they're creating. So I think that's healthy suspicion. But I would also say that part of an extension of that is we have framed this as a freedom from unwanted behaviors versus what is your freedom for? So when you think about Galatians, like, it is for freedom that you have been set free. So it's not freedom from sin. It's not just freedom from a Porn struggle. We have to be asking ourselves, what is that struggle? Or what's the nature of what our freedom is actually for? So that aside, I think the other category would be that we intuitively know that this work is painful. It is painful to deal with, with unwanted behaviors and the pain of shame, the pain of what that debris causes in our relationships. But there are different stages to that pain, that once we begin to address that and begin to establish some sobriety and growth, we intuitively know that we're going to have to face even more pain. And all of us resist going deeper into our pain. It's like why I haven't been to the dentist for my 6 month checkup in a while. Like, I don't want to have to deal with what I know I have to deal with. And I think that's part of the resistance as well. So privilege your resistance. But then, you know, get a sense of what do you want freedom for that marriage, kids or passion. And then also prepare yourself for pain. Because this journey is going to be difficult. But the flip side of that difficulty is a growth that you can't even begin to imagine at this point in your journey.

Well, and we know that biblically, pain is not pointless. God has a purpose for it and uses it for our benefit and for the benefit of people around us. And so that's just another. I mean, if you want to make sure you're rooting, just look at suffering in the Bible. It is used for our benefit and our good.

It makes me think of where Jesus talks about before we follow him, like weigh the cost, count the cost. He talks about that king that doesn't go into battle unless he's really considered what it's going to take and believes he can go all in to see it through to completion. Otherwise, don't go out. And I think that's Jesus's challenge to us, to realize there is a cost and there are hard things to face. But if we get a vision, just like in following Christ, if we have a vision for what we're being called to and his kingdom and his purpose, like, well, that's worth whatever it takes. That's the pearl of greatest price. It's selling everything I have to get that thing. And I think we can apply some of those spiritual principles to this journey of recovery. Like, yeah, there are a lot of costs. And if I haven't taken time to think through them and weigh them and determine that it's worth it, then we're not going to go all in. Because when we start to hit the pain. It's like, well, well, I don't know if this is worth it. And if all we're trying to do is get freedom, like you said so well, Jay, Freedom from. We don't have the vision to keep working through that pain. It's like, boy, I think my secrecy and the little bit of pleasure that, yeah, there's a ton of shame with it, but that was better than facing this pain unless we have that vision of the backyard guard and the beauty of what we're being led into. So that may just be some really important work to do in weighing those costs. So related to that, Jay, and it's a question we get all the time. And even as people are listening, they are listening as a half of the equation that they have a spouse who is not all in, and they feel like, man, I'm running after my recovery. And we see that both on the struggler side that they're starting to find freedom and traction, but we also see it on the betrayed spouse side that they're working through their healing and doing well. And they can have a spouse that's just like. Like disengaged, not interested, or they feel like their spouse is only doing the bare minimum while they're going all in. So what do you say to that spouse that is struggling with, hey, I'm engaged in my healing, but my spouse is totally not. How do you try to help them through that process?

It's so tough, so agonizing. I think that going back to that theme of honesty is. I mean, how. How do we grieve that? In some ways, like, the growth, the desire that we often want for our spouses does not always take place. And so I think I would really want to be. Yeah. Just tender to that place with regard to, like, how do we deal with kind of unfulfilled longing? And that's true of all areas of life, is like, you know, hope deferred makes the heart sick. And so, you know, it's important for us to attend and tend to that. That disappointment that we're experiencing. But here's the other side to that, is that I think of, like, my wife's therapy. She has therapy on Wednesdays, and on Tuesdays, I begin to get a little bit anxious. And then Wednesday, when I know that I'm going to see her after therapy, you know, there's a level of kind of caution that I. You talk about your dynamic, what's happening here, and here's why I know that if she changes, I have to change too. And that's not because I'm not all into my own therapy. It's that, like, unilateral changes mess with all of us. So, I mean, when we think about something happening with Russia and the Ukraine, Putin is making a unilateral change that is affecting everyone. And so just that notion of, like, once you really commit to growth and to health, that's part of the caution that I think our spouses run into is that, yeah, I want your unwanted behavior to change, or I want your betrayal trauma healed, but if I'm honest, I don't want to have to change either. And so I think that's always the difficult work that we're facing is once someone begins to make meaningful changes, that's going to disrupt the equilibrium of the system. So, you know, as you begin to be kind to ask for more of what you need, but also don't become a badger, but also don't look away and hide, that's going to change your marriage system. As you are less impressed by, you know, some of the excuses that your spouse might make from time to time, that is going to create some level of existential dread for them that they can no longer get away from what they used to, you know, get away with. And so I think as my wife looks away from less and less in her story and in her life, she looks away less and less from our marriage. And just even in that, she is forcing me to change in a way that I think is kind but also incredibly strong.

Right?

Yeah.

So what I hear you say in there is you've got to be willing to grieve. Maybe the marriage you don't have or the progress you're not seeing. Be willing to be kind in your response and then be gracious to continue asking for what you feel you need. And I think if people were doing those three things, I mean, there's. In relationships, there's no guarantees. There's. I mean, we could do everything perfectly and another person still makes their own choices. That's. That's the nature of relationships. But I think in what you've shared there, if we're following that approach, we give ourselves, our spouse, our relationship a real shot for that growth over time to also take hold in their life. And I think it's not an easy place for sure to be, like you just said.

Okay, so we've already mentioned it a couple times. You are going to be with us in September, 9-16-17. The summit, the pure desire summit. And you. And we also have Dr. Julie Slattery. We're also very excited to have her. But for you, when you're gonna be on stage, you're gonna be sharing with all these people, what can they expect to hear from you? I mean, maybe it's some of the musings we've already talked a little bit about today, but when you join us in the summit, what can we expect to hear from Jay Stringer?

I know I should have this answered, but honestly, I don't know if I have it completely answered. That's okay. So we'll have to get some listener feedback. But I think, like, part of where my heart is really drawn and I don't have this fully fleshed out yet is like, what's the interplay between kind of shame and desire like? I think of an example that I've been mulling around with is, you know, the story of Peter's denial of Jesus that, you know, it takes place over a coal fire and he denies Jesus. But then as Jesus goes to find Peter after his betrayal, he doesn't look away from Peter, Peter's shame, he doesn't shame him for what he did, but in many ways, he increases Peter's shame in that moment. Like, Peter is going to feel that acute sense of, I've just betrayed this man and now he's showing up over a fire. And so I think in some ways that sense of what Jesus is doing is inviting Peter to desire again. And I think what happens to so many of us in recovery is that we. We think that our desire is bad. And so therefore we need to suppress it and get rid of it and kind of get rid of all the weeds. But desire is not the problem. And so I think as we engage our shame, there's something about desire that gets reawakened for goodness, for pleasure, for beauty. And that's what I want people to feel on this journey. As we've talked about, there's some hard realities that we have to face. But if it's not a journey unto desire and reclaiming desire and a freedom for life, what in the world are we doing with our lives and our recovery system? So maybe that's part of it, is what does it mean for us to reclaim and set our desire free once again?

I mean, I know that's just like kind of off the cuff pitch, but I'm excited about it. So if you don't end up speaking on that, I'll be disappointed at this point. So, Jay, we again, man, we just appreciate the work that you're doing, you know, and it's something that I've become more and more, I think aware is probably a good. A good word, but also sensitive to just the way you choose your words and the curiosity and compassion you have toward yourself, your own story, but also to other people, especially people in this realm that struggle with sexual addiction, unwanted sexual behaviors, and betrayal trauma. And so we just appreciate you. We're super excited to see you in person with both your elbows intact. Right. With us September at the summit. But again, man, thank you for your time and we're excited to see you in September.

Yeah. Honored to be with you both today. Yeah. Thank you for how you engage this topic. And it's your invitation to me to be part of what you all are building and doing in the world.

Absolutely. And wherever you're at on your journey, pure desire is here to help create a roadmap for your healing. If you or someone you know is impacted by sexual brokenness or betrayal trauma, go to PureDesire.org and let's start the healing journey today. Don't forget to subscribe to the podcast and drop us a review. It helps others find the podcast. Each week we're putting out new content to help you on the road to healing and freedom. And lastly, never stop being healthy.

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