264 - Unmet Longings & Unhealthy Behaviors w/ Ben Bennett

Welcome to the Pure Desire podcast, helping you take back your life from unwanted sexual behavior and betrayal trauma. What is up? I'm your host, Trevor Windsor and you're listening to episode 264 of the Pure Desire podcast. Here joining me as always is my co host, Nick Stumbo.

Welcome to the Danger Zone.

He's singing again, Justin. He's singing again. Okay, so at the time of this recording, the new Top Gun Maverick movie it is has come out. Have you seen it yet?

Yes, my wife and I went Saturday night.

I haven't seen it. No spoilers. But is it great?

It's good. I really didn't think it could live up to, I mean, for sure, the first movie, so iconic and classic. It's like, you know, come on, what are you going to do on a second movie? And I did not have high hopes, but had heard people really liked it and I was, I was truly impressed, which I don't say about a lot of movies. So.

Okay.

It was well, well done.

Would you say the level of snobbery when it comes to judging movies is high with you?

I don't know, I just, maybe it would be rare, especially for a sequel.

Okay, that makes sense to give it.

That high of mark.

I'm trying to get like a gauge because my brother in law recently told me like, you're really generous with movie reviews. I was like, that hurts. Okay. Anyways, so I'm interested to see how you tie this in. We had our friend of the ministry and author of our college age resource Living Free, Ben Bennet of Josh McDowell Ministry and Resolution Movement on to talk about really the connection between our unmet longings and our unhealthy or unwanted behaviors.

Yeah. And I think a lot of what we're discussing today is helping people recognize this danger zone that long before I've run to my unwanted behaviors or doing the things that I regret doing or told others I wouldn't do, there are unmet longings that are happening in my life and if I can learn to identify them as, okay, I'm moving into a danger zone here. There's something that I'm needing and the more I can identify that and then learn to go in a different direction sooner, really, the healthier I'm going to be, the more success I'm going to have in not going to that unwanted behavior. So that was the connection just to it. This is a danger zone that whether we are aware of it or not, we all live there from time to time.

Yeah. And Ben is, he's well versed in this arena. He co authored the book Free to thrive with Josh McDowell, which we mentioned a couple times. And a lot of this conversation is birthed out of that book and what they've discovered about the longings that we all have. So make sure that that's in the show. Notes a few things before we get to the episode. Subscribe to the podcast. We're on all the major platforms. You can also follow us on social media, Facebook, Twitter, and Instagramureduredesirepdmi. And you can find this full episode up on YouTube. Just search pure Desire Ministries. And then Nick, we like to circle back every once in a while and just remind people that there is an invitation out there to join what we call Team 58.

Yeah, you know, if you follow the news, there's so much information coming out about Christian leaders. You know, the Southern Baptist Convention released a lengthy report about sexual abuse. And they're just. That's just one of many stories that we look at and go, you know what? I think even Christian leaders, there are a lot of unhealthy people out there. And yet at the same time, what we would say is most people aren't aware of the help that's available. And I'm not in any way excusing someone's struggle, but I think for many people who've been trapped in unwanted sexual behavior, pornography, affairs, you name it, it's because earlier in life, they didn't know what else to do other than to try harder to stop a negative behavior. And that's why we feel God created, called pure desire into existence. Put this on Dr. Ted's heart. Because we want to be an avenue of health and healing for men and women in the church. But people have to know that that avenue is available, that that help is there, so that when they're looking for someone to reach out to, they know where to go. And we believe that can be pure desire. But we need help getting that message out there. And that's really what team 58 is all about, is those are people who have seen the value of this mission we're on and want to partner with us. And through a monthly financial gift, they have joined the team. So team 58, coming out of Isaiah 58, where God says that some of you will be known as the rebuilder of walls and the restorer of broken cities. And kind of that idea that when we're healed, we become a part of helping others rebuild and restore what's been broken in their life. And so if you want to be a part of Helping people become aware of the hope, healing and freedom that's available through Christ. And you see, pure desire is a part of that mission. Then we'd invite you to join the team and be a part of creating those avenues of healing for others all around the world.

Absolutely. So if you're interested in joining team 58 and partnering with us, go to PureDesire.org give Alright, here's our conversation with Ben Bennett on unmet longings and unhealthy behaviors. Benny B. Welcome back my friend. Thanks for being with us today.

Hey, what a treat to get to be with you guys. If only we were together in person. But this will have to do.

It will have to do. But we are grateful for any time we can get with you. Today we get to hang out really in your field. Something that you've been spending a lot of time on focusing on just this idea of the longings that we carry inside of us. You co authored a book. You know what, Nick? We should have it. I don't know why we don't have it. We have copies. We should be holding it right now.

It's on my desk and I was gonna, I was gonna bring it with me. It's on the shelf behind Ben. So if people are watching on YouTube, they can see it prominently displayed prominently behind his shoulder.

And if you are watching, you'll see this. But if you're not, you co authored a book called Free to thrive with Josh McDowell, a no Namer first time author. So really excited for both of you. And today we wanna dive into really our long. That's a joke. I've said a few times on the podcast and I wish I could hear the laughter of the audience, but I don't.

Yeah, real funny joke.

Yeah than so we want to dive into how our longings, specifically our unmet longings connect to our unwanted and unhealthy behaviors. And I know this is something that you're very passionate about and very skilled in as well. So let's just start with this. In your work, what have you found to be the shared longings that we all have? Men, women, young, old. What are the longings that we all share?

One of the things we found this was in writing Free to Thrive, launching the Resolution movement. Just but just for throughout the past 11 years are these seven longings that all human beings have in common. We found it through all throughout scripture, psychology, sociology. If you're familiar with Maslow's hierarchy of needs, this goes beyond that into the well, these are primarily relational emotional needs. There's seven of them, all throughout Scripture. And I'll list out the seven, but then we can focus on one or two, probably the foundational longings. There's acceptance. And this is to be included, loved and approved of as you are, no matter what. Appreciation to be thanked or encouraged for what you've done. Affection to be cared for with gentle touch or emotional engagement. Access to have the consistent emotional and physical presence of key figures. Attention to be known and understood with someone entering your world. Two more affirmation of feelings. This is to have our feelings affirmed, validated, or confirmed by others. And then assurance of safety to feel safe, protected, and provided for emotionally, physically, and financially. And, you know, as we think about all of these, all of these are important and they lead to a thriving life. For example, Harvard has been doing this study for 80 years, and they wanted to see what led to the happiest and healthiest lives. And so they've been tracking people. And the head of the study said that it's good relationships that keep us happier and healthier, period. And so we were designed with these emotional needs, these relational needs to be satisfied by God and by others. In the Garden of Eden, we don't live there. So these things are rejected, they go unmet. And for most people, it really starts out with the first one, acceptance. It's kind of like this foundational longing to be included, loved and approved of as you are, no matter what. And if you think about our life, we're born in this fallen world. We develop our sense of self, like who we are. We're supposed to be fully known, fully accepted, and to know that we matter. I think about Romans 15:7, which says, Accept one another, then just as Christ accepted you in order to bring praise to God. And, and you know, the. The gospel summarized is that through Jesus Christ, his life, his death, his resurrection, we're fully accepted by holy and perfect and just God and can enter into relationship there. And that's what God tells us to do with other people. And that's what we really need growing up as kids, because it affects how we view ourselves, how we view God, how we interact and relate to other people. And I know that's just been so powerful in my own life. Once I got around people who helped me because I experienced so much rejection growing up from my dad, from being bullied by people, from not feeling like I fit in for who I was. Once I got around a group of people who loved Jesus and loved people in college and really accepted me, I felt known, I felt valued. That started to help shift something within me. And that changed everything.

Yeah, it's such an encouragement on our journey to realize that what's driving all of us from the inside out are these very legitimate God created needs. I mean, I recall Dr. Ted Roberts in one of my first counseling sessions with him saying that he believed we were all born addicts. And he said we were designed or created to be addicted to Jesus. And what I heard him saying was that in all of these longings, the desire for affection, attention, appreciation, that in that longing we would run to Jesus over and over, like we just couldn't help ourselves but go to that source. But because we live in a broken and fallen world and sin has entered our lives and pain and abuse and trauma and all sorts of other things that have really messed up our system, we've learned to run to something else to try to meet those needs or find those things met. And underneath that all I know it really helped for me and I hear this from a lot of people in their story. It kind of helps unmask a lot of the shame because maybe what we're doing, the behavior itself feels wrong, dirty, perverted, you know, whatever word we've used to maybe shame ourselves. But when we see that underneath the behavior is a desire, a longing, a want, a need that is very central to humanity and how we're made, it's like, oh, okay, it's just a question of where am I going with those needs? Not what's wrong with me that I have these needs. Because we all do. We all have these longings in our life. And I think God designed us that way as human beings.

Well, and that's the thing. I feel like I grew up with my needs not really being that important. Like it's about how you best serve other people and how you serve the church and how you serve the Lord. And those are all great things. Those are things we should be focusing on. And in reality, I have two young kids. Like, I do have to train them to think about other people. It's natural for us to think about ourselves. But I think in there it gets lost that we have these, as you guys are talking about, these legitimate longings that we're designed with that need to be met and are designed to be met. And so I think there's this like switch in our perspective or maybe our paradigm on life that it is okay for me to have longings and it is okay for me to pursue these being met. Obviously, as we'll get into the conversation in healthy ways.

Yeah, so let's move into that. Ben, as the title of this podcast suggests, really looking at how do the unmet longings lead to our unwanted behaviors? And so talk about that a little bit. What happens when these longings are not met in our lives?

The way I've been thinking about it recently, let me start with a couple of scriptures. Think about the scriptures say he fulfills the desires of those who seek him. God's given us desires. Desires motivate everything we do. Think about Proverbs 4:23. Guard your heart for everything you do flows from it. Other translations say it's the wellspring of life. And so as, as I have continued to think about this and how it plays out, just put both of your hands in. In front of you and kind of have the. Have all of your. The tips of your fingers touching the other tips. On the other hand, if you're listening, that may be confusing, but if you're watching, you can see what I'm doing.

And if you're driving, please don't do this.

Hands on the wheel.

Hands on the wheel. Hey, hands free, hands free. There you go. Driving with the knees, baby. That's right. So if you put those together, I mean, this is an enlarged human heart, but the heart's not this big. But if you think about that, that God created you with a heart, with desires, with your heart, metaphorically to be made whole. And if you think about being born into a fallen world, think about that thing that somebody said on the childhood playground. And just a percentage of that heart being taken out, taken away. Your parents divorcing, perhaps, and maybe blaming yourself, maybe being physically abused, being emotionally abused. That breakup you had. As we go throughout our life, things start chipping away at our heart. These seven longings of the heart were meant to be perfectly and fully fulfilled. That's wild to think about what to be fully accepted, to always have our feelings affirmed, to always feel safe. Think about in a fallen world all of the things that are chipping away at that. This was my story where I just felt so unsafe and was worrying and being bullied. And then you just can get to a point where it's like that that whole heart is not even recognizable. It doesn't look like a heart anymore. It looks like something that's shriveled and 75% is. Is missing. And so if everything we do flows from our hearts, we're going to be doing things we can't help. We've been giving these seven longings. They drive everything we do. We can't help but attempt to fulfill them in other ways, whether that is in relationships. Okay, I think about me, you know, not feeling accepted for who I was, having that unmet longing. Worse, being emotionally abused. My dad's anger, his lashing out. That acceptance was not just unmet, but it was also outright rejected through, you know, the emotional abuse or the bullying from my friends. So there's this deep deficit. I didn't feel accepted for who I was. So I started looking for other ways to find that. I started jumping from friend group to friend group. Hey, maybe this group of people will accept me. Maybe if I dress like that, these people will accept me. Maybe if I go to pornography and find a type of pornography where the woman is kind of more dominant and will pursue the man. Right? This, you all know this. This gets into the arousal template, Looking for that acceptance, that fulfillment of that longing. But nothing could ultimately love me back and provide that in that way, because these weren't what God had designed. He designed safe people in himself to fulfill that. So with the unmet longings, first it will lead to lies about either yourself, like, I'm not good enough. That was a big one for me. Or about God. God couldn't accept me. Or he's not good because that happened. Or about other people. People will never truly accept me. People aren't safe. So the unmet longing is always going to lead to a lie, and then it's going to lead to a behavior, an unwanted behavior, a repeated thought. Whether we're lashing out in anger, whether we're getting into unhealthy relationships, whether we're going to pornography. So it's unmet longing, lie and then behavior. And it can. Like, this is the story for all of us, all of us experiencing these unmet longings. We do something with them when we don't know how to respond in healthy ways.

Yeah. So, I mean, let's press into that, though, because we're already getting there. Like, what is the connection between these unmet longings and our unhealthy or unwanted behaviors? Like, how do these two things meet? And then why do they fuse together so well?

Yeah, they're deeply integrated. I mean, they're always integrated. You know, if you think about. Just think about, like, your last week or yesterday. Think about. Let's take the last time you got mad, last time you got angry. I think for me, I was driving the other day. Yeah, yeah. Just being tailgated. Come on. Like, so frustrating.

That's the telltale sign you're getting older, is if, like, the more grumpy and angry you get as you drive. It's like, okay, you're getting older. That's. I feel like that's just a thing.

Especially when you're sabbathing and you're trying to drive the speed limit and you're like, I always drive in the middle lane now because I know there's, there's less bumps, I'm not going to hit a curb. And I go the speed limit. And it just keeps the cortisol. The stress down.

There you go.

And it's just, ah, but then people will tailgate you, especially in Texas. And then I'm like, I start judging people. I'm like, oh, that guy's got somewhere to be. Oh, see, See you at the red light, bro. We're both going to be waiting there. Especially with gas prices. Come on.

There you go.

What are you doing? But anyways, for me, I realized when I get angry in those situations, it's because I don't feel safe. Like when somebody's tailgating you and they're speeding and you're just trying to relax and then there's cars in front of you and traffic and merging. There's a lack of the assurance of safety for me. And I've been in some car wrecks and whatnot. So sometimes I'm a little more anxious or whatever, but instantly it can trigger that deficit. And then I can believe this lie that either God's not going to protect me or that I'm not safe or that it would be the end of the world if I got rear ended and you know, whatever. And then I respond through that unwanted behavior of, of anger in that moment. And so that's one, one practical way, but it's always playing out. So just think about the last time you got angry, the last time you got anxious, the last time you went back to pornography, the last time you engaged in. Okay, we're talking about dating or marriage. A protest behavior where you feel like you're not being seen, your needs aren't being met, so you react passive aggressively or you try and do something to be seen and to get those longings met. It's happening all the time. We just have to start to become aware of it. And so for. Well, we'll get into the solutions later. But doesn't a lot of healing in my life with. Yeah, with the tailgating and whatnot and feeling safer on the road and less anxiety and all kinds of other situations.

I was thinking about Andy. Stanley says in his sermons, rewarded behavior gets repeated. Rewarded behavior gets repeated. And he's Typically using it as a positive, like, hey, do these things, reward that so you see more of it. But I've just realized in my own life how often it's true, even of negative behaviors. How in my journey learning that I was often seeking attention, like from my mom. We had four of us as kids that were all very close in age and our life was busy. And I think to get attention, I learned that if I acted up, if I got in trouble, I would actually get attention. And looking back, I can see how that became my way of getting my mom's attention was being the troublemaker. But then in school and in class, other places that attention seeking turned into how could I be the funny guy? How could I be the one that always signs up for the lead role or the solo? Or just to be noticed by girls in my class and have them think I was funny or athletic or smart or whatever. And then ultimately leading into a way that pornography had that same hook of in that world of fantasy, believing that I had these girls attention, that they were looking at me and there was something special about me that made me wanted and desirable. And in a sense it worked. That's the point of what I want people to hear, that where we go with these unmet longings, we go somewhere that it works. Even if from maybe our healthy perspective we'd look and say, well, that's a negative behavior. Well, sure, maybe in terms of its outcome or its impact on other people, it's negative. But in this system of meeting our longings, we have to come to a place of recognizing it worked. It created, even in a false sense or in a short lived time frame, it created the feeling of attention that the pretty girl in the room, even if it's a total fantasy world, wants me or is paying attention to me. And that would get repeated because that longing wouldn't go away because it wasn't being met in a legitimate way. And so I think the more we can recognize those connections, it really can bear so much fruit in our journey because we see, oh, it's not just the behavior itself that I'm attached to, it's what I'm looking for and I'm getting one of those longings met. Even if it's in an unhealthy way in terms of the outcome of the behavior.

Yeah, yeah, I think it's just yesterday my 5 year old is supposed to be in quiet playtime. He's supposed to be in his room and I'm out there watching some sports documentary on Disney and he walks in the room, and I have to pause it. And you know what I'm realizing is I get angry. I'm like, what do you want, Brady? How can I help you? Trying to not be a jerk. And then he's just like, well, Dad, I have a question. And then his question is actually a statement that he's saying. And then I get annoyed and get hung up on the logistics. That's not a question, Brady. Please go back to your room. This happens, like three or four times. And what I like, even now, as I'm reflecting on the conversation yesterday, my longing that I had was just for my needs to be cared for or my desires to be met. And all I wanted to do was just sit and relax, not have the parent for about an hour and just watch something that was enjoyable. And he kept interrupting that. And so for me, my reaction, what I ended up doing, I actually went onto my phone and started surfing, like Apple News. And I'm just scrolling through it. And for me, again, I was disconnecting. There was a moment where he was talking to me and I was on my phone. I'm looking at my phone, and I said, what do you need, Brady? And just complete disconnect from relationship there. And that's what I was doing. So for me, what I'm realizing, and I think it's important for people to know, is that when it comes to this, it's not always necessarily the same behavior. And maybe if you've gotten some track, like, for me, I don't go to pornography the way that I used to. I just don't. But those same longings may get interrupted or infringed upon by someone else. And I'll find another way to meet those needs that isn't healthy. So it's awareness, I think, but it's also awareness that it can change over time. And it's very dynamic.

Yeah. So good.

So, Ben, you listed these seven longings that we all have, and some of them are probably familiar for us. As you mentioned, affection. A big one, I think. Attention for a lot of people. But how might we come to recognize which of the longings in particular we're really dealing with? What are the ones that we're wrestling with that are unmet? Is it just that all seven can be happening to all of us all the time? Or are there ways we can kind of hone in on the areas that are maybe more problematic for us so that we have a greater longing in one of those areas?

Yeah, there's a lot of different ways. One of the cool Things we did in this book, Free to Thrive is. So we teamed up with Dr. Ted and we created an assessment. If y' all listening or, you know, familiar with the SAS Sexual addiction screening test. We created something for unmet longings and then tested it and. Which was really, really cool, but it helps you walk through your life. It's just like 25 questions or something. Different experiences, different behaviors to help you identify what is the level of deficits in these unmet longings? How much have these gone unmet? And then that helps you kind of have a picture of, okay, there's significant unmet longings in my past. There's moderate or whatever. And then we like to walk people through the seven longings and then think about growing up, especially your mom, your dad, your siblings. What are significant ways that these people met your longings? Okay, dad consistently said, I love you and I'm proud of you. And he was there for me. Okay, that made me feel accepted or that. Or maybe he was there for me physically, but never said, I'm proud of you. And maybe that hit on the lack of appreciation. And so we have these charts that help people kind of walk through each of those and identify that. Because what you'll find out is that the longings where you have these deep caverns of unmet longings in your soul today have to do with the past and where these things went unmet. So we kind of systematically walk people through that in free to thrive. But a great place to start is to think about these longings and think about the last week and say, okay, where do I not feel seen? Where do I not feel appreciated? Where did I not feel safe? Or you can even use the unhealthy behaviors, the sin patterns, the lies you're believing in your life. You start there. Stop condemning your struggles and start questioning your struggles. Just take one like, okay, I keep believing that I'm a failure. Okay, well, let's sit with that. Take that lie captive, investigate it, interrogate it. What situations triggered that in me? Okay, it was yesterday. My kids weren't listening to me, and I felt like a failure as a parent or, you know, my. Nobody reached out to me. Okay, I'm a single. Nobody reached out to me. This would be one for me in a couple days. Like, none of my friends reached out asking how I was doing. Okay. Then I start to believe this lie that something's wrong with me, that I'm not good enough. So you think about the. The behavior of the lie. Think about the situations where a deficit might have happened, that triggered that. And then you go deeper and say, why is that so significant for me in my story, thinking about my story, why is feeling worthless, inadequate, rejected, assuming that people are rejecting me, believing these lies, why is that so significant for me? For me, it goes back to, oh, well, all throughout middle school and high school, I never felt like I was accepted and fit in with these different friend groups, with people, with being bullied, with being made fun of for my weight, for the music I listened to, for my faith. So you start to connect the dots in it. It starts to make a lot of sense that, oh, I'm still living in response to what happened years, years ago, but I don't have to anymore. You know, it's for, for so many of us, it's our, our sin, our. These struggles we're having is not because we don't love Jesus enough or because of a lack. It's a lack of self awareness. We don't know why we're doing the things we don't want to do, but we can discover why we're doing those things and then even better yet, find what we're truly looking for.

Yeah, I think as you're saying that, Ben, I just thought the patterns in our life are pretty revealing. I think if there's patterns where I tend to go to this behavior or these types of activities, when I feel a certain way or on certain days of the week, I start to think these things about me or things like that. I think patterns are really revealing, that there's something deeper going on there. And I think that, that maybe is another easy place to start, is just kind of take a scan of your week and maybe even put it in your schedule. Because I know for me that helps. When I schedule something like, okay, on Tuesday at 3pm I'm gonna sit down and I'm gonna just look at my week and try to evaluate. And if you can find those patterns, and that's obviously something that helps in recovery when we're able to identify our patterns of relapse and things like that. But I think being able to do that and identify those patterns can maybe help us hone in on. Okay, when I feel this certain thing, whether it's rejection or, you know, for you, Ben, maybe loneliness, if friends aren't reaching out. Right. Like something like that. And then if you've identified what that longing is or what that struggle or that emotion is, then that's where you can say, okay, when did I feel that growing up? When did I feel that in maybe some of the Darker times in my life, when did I feel that? At other times in the last week. And I feel like that maybe is a good launching pad to figure out what longings are there and what aren't being met.

Well, and for a lot of people, this is the value of the faster scale. And that's why we recommend using that not only if you're in a group experience, but even outside a group is just that weekly check in of what's driving me down my scale towards my old addictive behavior. And that first question of how, what did you feel? Because it's in the moment or within that 24 hour time period. If you can look back on something and start to identify, okay, I was feeling tons of anxiety. And here's kind of the thoughts that were in my mind. You begin to see those patterns. And especially if you're in a group or sharing that out loud with someone, it really reveals, boy, these are the unmet longings or the areas that I am more susceptible to because I've seen week in and week out in my faster scale how it shows up and then we really have that clarity to look at the second part of it. Then what's my commitment to change going to be in the coming week to deal with that emotion or that feeling, that longing in a different way?

Yeah, that's a great point. It's the unmet longings that always, I would say, put us on the faster scale. I know for me, what. When I started recovery back in the day, the procrastination, okay, Forgetting priorities was huge for me. And most of the time it had to do with, okay, I've got to give a talk next week. I've got to do all of this work. And it was this anticipatory unmet longing of acceptance. I'm not going to be accepted. I'm going to fail.

Or.

What'S it called? I just said the word. A preemptive fear that I'm not going to be safe.

Yeah.

That I'm gonna choke over my words when I'm speaking, that I'm gonna feel all weird, that I'm gonna have to run off stage, whatever, you know, and you start going there and then, oh, of course I'm gonna forget the priorities and procrastinate on preparing this talk that I've gotta, I've gotta do.

Yeah. So let's kind of maybe take a turn here. What are some healthy ways that we can meet these needs or longings? We've identified them. We figured out how they connect to some unhealthy behavior. Now what are ways we can start pursuing health in how we meet these needs?

Two specific ways. One is, and this is so big for me is with, with God. And so, so I think about that going back, like I said, to that tailgating situation or in, or in traffic. Um, it's wild out here in Texas. It's the wild west. I mean you have, the speed limit is 70 miles per hour and like four lane highways and you have constant on and off ramps. So it's crazy because people are going like 85 and then here comes some, you know, Joe Schmo going 55, trying to merge and like is about to get nailed. And then somebody merges and it's just like I've never seen anything like it. And so that for me about a year ago, that was triggering so much anxiety, like instant, oh, I'm not safe. Lack of assurance of safety. And so what, what I did and my therapist helped me work through this was okay, what do I need in that movement, in that moment? What is the truth? What is, I mean, statistically speaking, I'm not going to get into a car wreck, like I will a couple times in my life, statistically speaking, but it's probably not going to happen that day. And plus I'm going to be okay. Like so more than likely. So what I would do in that moment is I would start to visualize this bubble around me of just of God in his presence. And I would quote Psalm, what is it, 8, 9. I believe the Lord is a refuge to the oppressed, a stronghold in times of trouble. And experientially, no, I wouldn't close my eyes, but sometimes I can be really helpful. But I would just envision this protective bubble around me and the truth and God being with me and meeting that longing of assurance of safety that everything's going to be okay. And that, you know this Romans 12 to take or not. Romans 12, 2, that's be transformed by the renewing of your mind. I was doing that. But second Corinthians 10:3 to 5, take every thought captive every thought. We've got 8,000 thoughts every single day. Every means every. And so what became an automatic trigger for me was, you know, that, that, that unmet longing instantly every time I would go to, okay, Psalm 89, I would visualize this and it created these new neurological pathways. I was experiencing God. I was feeling safe, I was believing the, the truth. I was setting my mind on things that are. Setting my mind on things above. Like that's what those scriptures mean. And you encounter God and you experience the truth. And then those became such memorable times of God providing, of God meeting me, even though I felt like, Dang it, I'm 30 at the time, 32 years old, being afraid, having anxiety, driving on a highway. What is this? You know, rather than condemning myself, having kindness and experiencing God, it just became one more day or one more way throughout the day to experience the goodness of God and to encounter him. And so that would be B1. Like, what do you need in the moment when your unmet longing is happening? Think about the past, how, you know, pure desire, like, y' all are big on these. You know, the prophetic promises. Think about a time in the past where you encounter God. What is. What is the truth? What is the verse of scripture? I like to think about even in the present, like that Psalm 89. Like, doing that and encountering God, reaching out to friends. So that has been so. So helpful. So I think of even, you know, last week, just feeling some. Feeling some rejection, some sadness, like thinking I was gonna fail, feeling some anxiety. What did I need in that moment? Yes. Sitting with God and thinking about how. What he says about me and how he's met those longings in the past and visualizing that. But reaching out to a friend, because sometimes it's so hard to believe it. Yeah. And asking him to my friend, texting him. Will you encourage me? Would you. Would you help me? Would you pray for me? And, you know, this friend in particular is so good at the affirmation of feelings. You know, sometimes. Sometimes it really takes things being heard to be healed. And it doesn't change the situation. It didn't make my anxiety or the event that I was afraid about go away. But to just have somebody affirm that and say, wow, I could see how that would be anxious. I'll be praying for you. You've got this. Like, that really helped meet one of those seven longings.

To mention another tool. I think that's a lot of what you're describing, Ben, is what we say is the value of that outer circle in your three circle tool, your sobriety plan, to say, what are those things that. As I'm identifying my patterns of unmet longings and what I've gone to instead to identify, well, where. Where do I go? That. That brings me that sense of peace with God and others. That gives me a feeling of connection, of belonging, of purpose and. And having those really written out and then continuing to add to them. So that when we're in the midst of feeling something, we Go. Okay.

What.

What have I learned that actually helps me deal with this in a positive, faith filled, you know, God honoring way and not just running to my old unhealthy behaviors. And the more we have clarity on that, that I think as you were saying, Ben, so well, it just becomes our learned response. Our brain starts to make those neurological connections to say, oh, I'm feeling unsafe. Here's what I've learned to go to that restores that sense of calm and peace and safety and isn't an old addictive behavior that's going to create more shame or regret later on?

Yeah.

And I mean, you guys are touching on the idea too, that how important other people are in this. I had a recent experience too, where I was in a space where I felt very insecure, felt like who I was or the value I bring to relationship or even to life. I was in a situation where none of that applied. None of that was kind of brought in. And I was able to sit down with my friend right there in the moment, just be like, I'm just gonna share this. This is how I'm feeling. I am really insecure. I'm really unsure of myself. I don't feel safe. Like, you know, I love you, you're great, you're making me feel safe. But overall, I don't feel safe. And to your point, Ben, he was just like, that totally makes sense. And he even said, I don't feel safe. I didn't feel safe today either. And here is an example. And to me, that community and that idea that I was able to, in a safe way, reach out to my friend who was right there. And he also enters into that shared space, that relationship. Because that's what I think is so important, is as we learn to identify our longings and meet them in healthy ways, it's not. That's not the ends in itself. Like, the whole point is to be in better relationship with God, better relationship with other people, and better relationship with ourself. And so there's always going to be this moving and growing dynamic to it. But that's why community and relationship with other people is so important, because that's the playing field where all this stuff gets really played out.

Yeah. Yeah. So a lot of what we've been talking about, Ben, is kind of looking back, learning from, choosing to respond differently next time. But can we grow in our ability to recognize these unmet longings, like, as they're happening? And if so, how could we do that? How could we become more aware in the moment of, oh, here's what I'm really longing for. So that we're not always just reactively trying to change behavior, but actually can proactively choose differently. So how could we grow in that awareness?

It's just a process of starting to notice, you know, not saying, okay, great, I understand these seven longings. I'm going to memorize them. And now every single day, I'm going to all 8,000 thoughts. Like, I'm going to be sitting on my couch and just, like, spending 12 hours a day fixing myself. No, no, that's not. That's not the goal. It's a process. And it's starting to notice and starting to have curiosity. And I think about Romans 2, that it's his kindness that leads us to repentance. And repentance means literally a changing of our mind. Yeah, so this. It's this reorienting of our ways to God's ways. And so, yes, we are told to take every thought captive, but we're also human. And so we're on the journey. And so what we want to start doing is putting effort and energy towards that each day of, okay, there's a thought or there's. There's this, you know, thinking about this, there's this sexual thought that pops into my mind. Oh, interesting. What's that about? Rather than dwelling on it and like, giving into the fantasy, using that as an opportunity to say, oh, what unmet longings or longing am I experiencing right now? Is it something I'm anticipating will go unmet? Is it something that just happened now, yesterday? Because those things are signals. All our different unwanted behaviors, unhealthy thoughts, those are signals that need to be answered. And when we answer them, we don't just sin less or whatever, we actually start to flourish and thrive. Because like we Talked about Proverbs 4, 23, Everything you do flows from your heart.

Your.

Your heart is longing for things to be fulfilled that God wants to fulfill through himself and other people. And so we start noticing them throughout each day. Maybe there's something we're really struggling with. Like maybe right now in the season, it's pornography. Maybe it's sexual thoughts. Maybe it's trying to control the behavior of my spouse or significant other because I don't want them to relapse. What is that behavior? Start to notice it when you desire that behavior, what is the unmet longing before it or behind it? And then what's the invitation of God to reorient your ways towards his ways, to live into the way he designed you to flourish and Then to say, okay, I really need to feel safe. God, I thank you that you are a refuge to the oppressed. That you are a stronghold in times of trouble, that you are safe, that you're going to carry me through to the end and one, you know, and I'll be resurrected and with you and fully safe and in paradise forever. Or maybe it's. I really need to process this and reach out to somebody and have my feelings and experiences affirmed and then hear truth from them because I'm having such a hard time dealing with it myself. So we just start slowly but surely practicing those things, and over time, it becomes easier and easier and our brains start to rewire, and then we overcome stuff to the point where I don't get, like, me a year ago, I don't. I don't have to do that anymore. Like, I'm not. I mean, with the tailgating. Yeah, I still feel a lack of safety, but when, you know, like, traffic and whatnot, it's. It's so much better. And it's because God has continued to meet those longings and bring healing.

Yeah, I feel like you have to understand that this is a muscle to be developed. You know, if you haven't worked out, like, I can tell you right now, I'm about to get back into fitness and my body's going to hate me for it. And there's this thing of, like, your muscles are undeveloped, and so as you start to use them, they grow. But it's also. It takes time. Like, you get really tired really fast, and it takes a lot more effort on the front end. But once it becomes something that your body is in sync and rhythm with, then it becomes easier over time. And so I think having that expectation up front, I think is helpful when really addressing our longings.

Yeah. What we're talking about. It sounds like we need to really change the setting of our hearts or minds. That if we've gotten used to listening to certain thoughts and haven't been taking them captive and we. We really struggle with feeling that need for attention, that need for appreciation, that need for acceptance. That may just be the mantra that we're used to hearing. And so when we're feeling, you know, unaccepted or unappreciated, that's like, normal to us. And so healing means creating a new normal. And so if we're consistently engaging in activities that help us feel a sense of appreciation or affection or attention and that becomes our new normal, then I think when we're lacking, when we have an unmet need it will actually stand out more. And that's where we become more self aware. Not because there's just an absence of unhealth, but because there's the presence of a lot of healthy behaviors that are creating those met longing. Kind of like you were saying, Ben, that if we're back to that whole heart where all the fingertips are touching, then if one thing kind of gets off stray and there's not a connection point anymore, I think we're more attuned to it. Like, whoa, that feels off. Or if we're just so accustomed to living a disjointed life, everything feels off all the time, for sure. And so just pursuing health, pursuing those relationships and connections that create met needs, will actually make it easier to find the needs that are not being met.

Yeah. So, I mean, this is par for the course in recovery. You start to get healthy, you start to figure some things out, and then you see all the ways other people don't have them figured out. And you want to help, right? Or control, whichever word you want to use. Mine's more control. There's some disclosure for you. Is it possible to see or identify unmet longings in other people? And if so, is there anything we can do to help? I think that's a natural kind of flow of this conversation is once we start to figure it out, how do we help other people identify those longings and help them through that?

Yes, there is. And you know, I feel like the ways I've seen it the most are when are like during group game nights when everybody, it's like their anger is coming out and you're like, oh, that's probably your unmet longing there. Oh, there's some significant stuff not dealt with there. Oh man, that's funny. But seriously. But no, I think in, in relationships. Like this has really transformed my relationships in ministry and at work here at Josh McDowell Ministry. And just knowing people's stories, knowing the unmet longings and the deficits, knowing the unhealthy behaviors, the lies that people deal with. So that when we hit like a hit like a snag in, like either somebody gets frustrated or somebody shuts down or whatever, that has really helped our, our work environment be healthier because it's like, hey, I'm sensing that you're, it seems like you're kind of withdrawing a little bit. Was there, was there something I said or something that was said that we need to. Yeah, it would be helpful to, you know, process or go back to. And so I think. And that takes time to Develop. And it starts with really understanding somebody.

It's like curiosity you were talking about. You're talking about curiosity. Yeah, Toward other people now.

And so all of these, you know, I think about when it comes to leadership, when it comes to businesses, when I think about this affects every single type of environment because they all pretty much include relationships. And so it goes to. Whenever you see something in somebody that you want to change or that you wish wasn't there, rather than trying to change them, you could ask a question and approach it with that kindness and curiosity and say, hey, what's going on there for. For you? Or can you invite me into the way you're experiencing this or. Or thinking? And then that's an opportunity. If they are experiencing an unmet longing from you that you weren't intentionally, you know, not listening to them or whatever, you can understand them better and step into that. And then this can save, like, months of frustration or resentment building up by just, okay, what are these seven longings? How can I serve you? And help meet those? But oftentimes it starts with that. What is that unwanted behavior you're seeing in somebody's life, what's going on there? And you're not responsible to fix that person. They're responsible for their own journey and healing. But if it's a spouse, if it's a child, if it's a friend, you can always ask question. You can seek, ask them what they need, how you can serve them and help them and be, you know, the body of Christ them, because we need one another and step into that relationship. That's. That's after somebody shares something hard with me. The best thing I think to do is to affirm the feelings. Romans 12:15. Mourn with those who mourn. No ifs, ands, or buts, no trying to fix them, no shooting on each other. That's right. Like, you should do this, you should do that. I should do that. Affirm those feelings and then say, how can I help? How can I come alongside you in this? And that will really help somebody feel affirmed and seen and. And accepted and valued.

Yeah, yeah. It's an area I do think we have to be careful not to come across with kind of that, you know, better than, better than you attitude. It's a little bit like the guy or gal that has three weeks of sobriety under their belt, and they're like, I'm going to go help the world because I'm free of pornography. And, you know, that's not to say if you're early in recovery, you can't help like start groups at your church. We just want to do so from an attitude of humility and brokenness and openness. And I think in that same vein, being careful that we're not coming across to others of, well, I've figured out how to get all my unmet longings met, and I'm doing great. So let me tell you what yours are. And it does seem that if we're pointing it out in other people, like, oh, you really seem to be needing attention. How could I help? You're like, you know, telling me I'm needy is not a great way to get me to be open.

It's a good way to get punched in the face, actually.

I feel like if we are growing in this area, we may notice that in others. And so being open, just being curious. But another thing I've tried to do, and not always perfectly, but, you know, if I feel someone is lacking in an area and God has put me in a position as a friend, a family member, a spouse, to meet that need, to just try to help meet the need. If I sense, boy, I really think they need affirmation. Rather than telling them that, just find a way to affirm them, find a way to give them attention, find a way to appreciate them, find a way to bring some affection. So if you see, that's what I think the gift is when we become aware of unmet longings, if we see it in others, we could be an instrument God uses to help meet that need. And not, you know, not to manipulate them or get something from them, but just to show our care and compassion to help meet them in those needs and be a part of their healing journey as well.

Yeah, absolutely.

So, Ben, what do you do? You know, we get the pushback about in pure desire groups where people say, oh, I don't have any trauma. I think it's just pornography, or it's just lust, or I'm just a guy. We get some of that kind of reasoning. I would imagine there may be some of the same where people feel like, oh, come on, unmet longings. You know, aren't we just. You know, we just need to grow up and get over these things. So how do you maybe help someone who doesn't see any connection between their unmet Be their unmet longings and their unwanted behavior? Is. Is there anything we can say or do to maybe help them make some connections when they think, well, I don't have any of that. I'm just. I just have too much, you know, I have too Many hormones. I've heard that from people. So how do you approach maybe that conversation?

Classic. I always take it back to the Garden of Eden because people know. Christians know about the Garden of Eden and read how, like, amazing and it was. And so if you think about. I like to help people think about the Garden of Eden. Perfect relationship with God, perfect relationship with other people, perfect relationship with yourself and thoughts about who you are and your value. That's what we were designed for. And all you have to do is think about one day in this fallen world and the stuff that you are that either happens to you or that you witness. Like, we were never intended to turn on the news and read it. You know, just hear about another mass shooting or of violence happening or that happening or. Have you ever lost somebody? Have you lost a friend? Either they were your friend and then they went a different way, or maybe you moved. That's a loss. That's an unmet longing. Have you ever had a family member die? We were not meant to experience death. We were not meant to witness death. That's an unmet longing. Have you ever live this life feeling far away from God or not knowing God? We're not born Christians. We're born with original sin, separated from God, and we have to be restored. Think about all those unmet spiritual longings, the years that you didn't know God. There are millions of ways that this can happen. And so we categorize the. Besides that. We think through this in our book as attacks and absences. Attacks are the outright rejection of the unmet longings. Absences are the lack of the longings. An attack could be a hurtful word from somebody about your body, about the way you think, about the clothes you're wearing, about not doing good enough in school. You know, this can easily happen. As a kid growing up, an absence could be, hey, maybe I worked really hard, studied really hard, and I didn't get the affirmation or approval of my teacher or of my parents. It happens in so many different ways. And so whether or not we think we have big T trauma, we have little T trauma, and we have wounds and unmet longings. A good. And so it's just that we have to identify what those are. It's not if it's. Yeah, it's how are those playing out in our lives? And we can't compare our stories to other people. We all live in a fallen world and hurt and experience losses. And whether or not we realize that we do something with that.

Yeah, I think we can't I think it's a mistake to overlook the power of just our own sharing of our own experience, our own story. You know, like, even before I went on this trip, I was telling you guys about. Even before I went on this trip to see my friend, I was telling my wife I'm feeling insecure already. And it wasn't a way to do that, to manipulate her or get her to like, hey, what longings are you struggling with? You know, not being met? It was just me expressing a fear, you know, a lack of safety, this. This longing to belong or feel safe or be accepted. And I was afraid I wasn't going to have that met. And so I think that that can go a long way. And again, as long as we're not working to manipulate it or twist it to try to get someone to identify something, but just living your life. And as you see those, communicating those to safe people, I think that creates a culture around you that it's safe to admit those things, but then also you're just modeling how to do it. Like, here's a fear, or here's a, an insecurity I carry, or, you know, I'm feeling really disconnected from this friend or from my wife or from my kids or whatever. Sharing that can really help and be a key, I think, for a lot of people to unlock it in their own life.

Yeah, I think too, like, in any situation where we're identifying something and others don't see the connection, I mean, you can't change someone's mind for them. We all know how that goes. If you try to force, you know, a debate, people just become more entrenched in their thinking. But there is something powerful about sharing our experience, sharing our story that is disarming. It opens people up to say, you know, maybe you're sharing with a friend. I think maybe when you're struggling with boredom, there's some unmet longings there, like, ah, you know, whatever. I just get bored. Like, well, I found in my life, you know, when I'm bored, what I actually am starting to struggle with are thoughts that says, no one cares about me and no one, no one wants to do anything with me. And that's what has become a stumbling block for me then, to seek out things on social media or in pornography that make that feeling go away. And I've just, as I've recognized that I'm learning to go in a different direction. And so if you shared that story, your friend might go, oh, well, now the next time I'm bored home alone, I'm Gonna pay a little more attention to are there thoughts that I'm having that go beyond that. And perhaps they can recognize some of their story in yours. And we've just seen that in groups so much, where. That's why we say groups are vital. Because if you know your story, great. But if you don't hear it in other people first, sometimes it's really hard to see it in our story. So that's what I would suggest is just share your experience, share what you're learning, and then really pray and trust that God will do that work in their life when they're ready.

Yeah. So, I mean, Ben, this is like, you've been living in this topic, in this for a long time. Obviously, you guys wrote this book which is helping a lot of people really unmask these longings and then also help people give them steps to then meet it. What just final words would you have? Just encouragement for people that are working to identify unmet longings and then also how they connect to our unwanted or unhealthy behaviors?

I think we have to play the long game when it comes to this and kind of change our thinking of what this is all about. I often go Back to Luke 2:52, how our model of discipleship, of growth, of life, is Jesus. And it says that Jesus grew in wisdom and in stature, in favor with both God and man. And so right there you see wisdom, this mental, this emotional wholeness, stature, this physical wholeness and growth in favor with God, this spiritual life and wholeness and growth, and then in favor with man, this relational wholeness and growth. So what we've got to realize is that the. One of the. Well, the primary thing that inhibits or helps our discipleship, our growth, are becoming more and more like the person God created us to be is understanding these seven longings, how they've gone unmet, how we're seeking to fulfill them in unhealthy ways. And then growing really happens by finding them fulfilled in healthy ways, in greater intimacy with God and others. And so rather than seeing this as, okay, I just want to stop looking at porn, that I'm good. I just want to stop being angry at my kids, and I'm good. I just want to stop being anxious and overcome that. Starting to see these things as signals and opportunities to go further, faster with God and with other people, becoming more like the person God created us to be, understanding ourselves better, serving other people more. And if we kind of shift to a. Here's just another framework to think about. My lifelong journey and growth with God and others and how I can really come alongside other people and even sharing with other people. Like, I mean, so many people are hurting. They've got unmet longings. They don't know there's a God who loves them. They don't know there's people that care about them. Suicide is the second leading cause of death for young people. And there's so much hurt, so many unmet longings. And all we have to do is to step into somebody's life, listen to them, seek to understand those unmet longings. And as God is growing us and healing us and helping us simply share, hey, here's what God has done in my life. Here's, here's the hope I have and what the journey he's bringing me on. And so to see this as not a one time thing, but where am I headed? Where am I going? And am I stepping into this and becoming more like Jesus and helping serve others through it?

Yeah, it's good. That's a good way to wrap it up, man. It's very, very clear. And as our listener can probably get that you are well versed in this and you've done the work yourself and are now helping people also identify it. And what's cool, even as we're hearing you talk about it, you're still working on it, you're figuring it out that on the highway, if you're that 55 and you got the 85 guy coming, you're still working through this, you're still figuring out what longings aren't being met and how they're attaching to your health. And look, man, we love you. We are huge fans of you. We wish we could see you in person. We wish you didn't live so far away. And we'll make sure that everyone can get in the show notes can get a copy of you and Josh's book Free to Thrive. So thanks man, for everything that you do and for being our friend.

I love you guys. Such a gift to be with you all today. Love everything you're doing and can't wait for the next time.

That's right. And wherever you're at on your journey, pure desire is here to help create a road map for your healing. If you or someone you know is impacted by sexual brokenness or betrayal trauma, go to PureDesire.org and start the healing journey today. Don't forget to subscribe to the podcast. Each week we put out new content to help you on the road to healing and freedom. Lastly, never stop being healthy.

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