265 - Finding Your True Self w/ Marilyn Vancil

Welcome to the Pure Desire Podcast, helping you take back your life from unwanted sexual behavior and betrayal trauma. Hello. Hello. I am your host, Trevor Windsor, and you're listening to episode 265 of the Pure Desire Podcast. You're joining me, as always, is my co host, Nick Stumbo.

Wouldn't do it. Wouldn't be prudent.

Oh, gosh. You know, there are some intros you do where I'm just like, man, I should know this. And honestly, I'm ashamed so that I don't know this, but I'll admit it here in the A safe place. I don't know. What is that?

Well, it's probably good because it means that you were not watching Saturday Night Live as like a two year old, which would. Would not have been an appropriate show for your parents to put you in front of because that was Dana Carvey. So I was impersonating Dana Carvey, who was impersonating George H.W. bush.

Yes.

About something. I don't know if he actually said that or not, but that was repeated a lot in my teenage years by kids who would quote Dana carvey quoting George H.W. bush. Didn't do it. Wouldn't be prudent.

And you came up with that one. That's not a listener one.

No. Yeah, that's just from my.

That's good.

Pulling that out of the background there.

Yeah, that's a good one. I like that one. That is a deep cut right there. All right, so Nick, you and I, we met with. And it was the first time that we had met her, Marilyn Vanceel. And she is a life coach, a spiritual director, an Enneagram expert, and an author. And she's written one book so far and another that's coming out. But the one that we really talked about most today was Self to Lose Self Defined. And we really just talked to her about how do we find our true self, who God has actually made us to be.

Yeah, I think a really valuable conversation. And for those that are fans of the Enneagram, you know, they'll love this. For those that are less acquainted, we hope it's a tool that you might consider using to just understand how you're wired. And I think what comes out of this episode is just helping us see that. That there are some things that are authentically us that that are unique from other people. But there's a lot of that adaptive self that's. I think the concept she comes back to a lot this. This adaptive self, the ways we've learned to navigate life and conflict and that's, you know, the connection to George W. H.W. bush. You know, I was thinking about how he was president in a season of our country where there was lots of conflict. And I think he got criticized a lot because he was just a pretty normal, authentic guy and would make statements just about life and politics that he wasn't as put on as I think some other politicians have been. And so it was easy to make fun of him. And I think as we look at our life, it's just asking, how do I be authentic and not be that put on self? Because sometimes the way we respond to conflict, we are trying to be something we're not. And the more we perpetuate that, we're not gonna be healthy. And so I think today's conversation is just an encouragement of be who you are. And whether you use the enneagram to get into that or some other way of understanding yourself, we're fine with it. But the heart of it is let's come to the heart of who we really are and be okay with it. And even if other people like Dana Carvey make fun of us for it, it's okay to be who we are and trust that God will really meet us in that place.

And, Dana, if you're listening to this, you can make fun of us at any time. That's Touch us, please. You're a legend. This is a really, really good episode. I really like her approach. She's obviously a great human being and is really passionate about this, and I love her integration with spiritual direction information. Before we get into it, though, we got a couple of things to talk about. By a couple, I mean four. First, Nick, we just want people to know. Next month, coming September 16 and 17, is the pure Desire Summit. And we are going all. And why don't we tell people about the summit? Why should they come? Who's coming? Tell people about the event.

Yeah, I mean, just to summarize an amazing weekend in a minute here on the podcast Hard to Do Trevor. They can go to the website and see that. Jay Stringer speaking. Julie Slattery, myself. And really all around this theme that recovery happens best when we're all in because we're able to embrace the life change that needs to happen. That it's not just stopping behavior. It's a new way of doing life. And we think a new way of doing life is having a new community, a new group around you that's encouraging you and keeping you focused and on point. And to me, that's what the summit is all about. Is kind of that annual summit, that high point of, okay, this is why I'm doing it. This is what it's about. And whether we're a group member in our first group ever, or we're a group leader or a pastor that's been doing this for a lot of years, I think having those high point perspectives that remind us this is what it's about, that's why we do it. So gather with us, whether online or in person. I know you'll be encouraged. I think it'll provide new perspective for a new season. And if you're a couple, that's another thing I've seen happen at the summit. So well, is many of us have done recovery in our group separately, but the summit is a place we come and we hear some of the same things together and I think can provide real strength and coupleship of how do we move forward as spouses in this journey of recovery.

Yeah. So if you want more information or you want to register, go to PureDesire.org sports summit22. That's the word. Summit number two. Two. All right. Subscribe to the podcast. That's another thing. I know I say it every week, but this is a way that it makes sure it hits your inbox every single week when it comes out every Tuesday. Subscribe to the podcast. Write us a review as well if you can. It really helps other people find the podcast. You can follow us on social media, earedesirepdmi on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, LinkedIn, and you can also follow. We have these full episodes up on YouTube. Just search Pure Desire Ministries. All right, here's our conversation with Marilyn Vancel on finding your true self. All right, Marilyn Vancel, it is an honor and a privilege to have you with us. Welcome to the Pure Desire podcast.

Well, it's my honor to be here. Thanks for the invitation to be with you. Find out more about what you're doing and the work that you're doing and also share what I'm doing.

Absolutely.

I appreciate it.

Yeah. I mean, we have some connection here. Nick, why don't you talk about the connection a little bit? How we got connected with Maryland?

That was not on our list here. And I'm just trying to think what would make sense to our listeners. We have a mutual friend who was a mentor of mine and helped me walk through a lot of just personal growth using some of the enneagram. And we had reached out to him about, hey, would you do a podcast? And he's like, well, if you're going to have a Podcast on the Enneagram. You should just really have my friend Marilyn because she's way better at understanding it and speaking about it. And so he made the connection and now here we are.

Yeah, so we, some of our listeners are gonna be familiar. I mean, Nick, you and I have had conversations on the podcast where we, you know, talked about our numbers and how the Enneagram has been helpful for us. We've also had Jeff and Beth McCord on with a two parter to kind of talk through really all the numbers and how they relate to the recovery and healing journey. But Marilyn, you. I'm excited to get into it because it looks like you are working with the Enneagram and really spiritual formation finding. You know, we have your book right here, Self to lose, self defined using the Enneagram to uncover your true God gifted self. So the Enneagram will be somewhat familiar to some of our listeners, but you and your work overall might be new to some of them. So could you give us some background on yourself and your work and resources you've been a part of producing?

Yeah. Thank you. I was in my late 30s, which is a while ago. We were in the midst of raising our four children. I was. My first career was a stay at home mom. But I was really lost in that shuffle with my, you know, our four kids. And my husband was very involved in his work. And I just, you know, I didn't know who I was, but it was. I didn't know why I was struggling so much and feeling resentful and, you know, explosions of anger and, you know, all kinds of things that I didn't really want to be expressing, but I was. It was coming from somewhere. And we were introduced to the Enneagram through a studio series of cassette tapes. So that really dates us.

Yes.

And if anybody knows what that, if anybody even knows what those are. But I was immediately so relieved to understand myself and go, oh, that's why I'm, you know, that's where that anger is coming from. That's where that impatience is coming from. That's where that resentment is coming from and identify with the type 9. So resignation and resentment and this kind of underlying struggle to think that I mattered was what was kind of eating away at me. And so to have some words, to have a handle, to have some way that, you know, it was such a relief, it was such a comfort. And my husband was introduced at the same time and for him it was more like, oh, no, this is. He could see those, you know, and so everyone can have A different reaction to their exposure, their understanding of themselves. And for both of us, it's just been a long journey of understanding our types. And for me personally. So all those years of raising my children, I thought, I would love to teach this someday. It's so good. It's so helpful. And so it just began a journey. And when our youngest was about to graduate from high school, I thought, what am I going to do now with my life? And the Lord just led me to pursue being trained in the Enneagram. I went to a lot of different trainings. I became a life coach at that time. And then on my own personal spiritual journey was led to a spiritual director. And I realized, wow, that really is more a fit for me than life coaching, even though I like that too. And incorporating the Enneagram in that work. So then God, out of nowhere, led me to write a book that is not something I ever anticipated doing. And here I have another one coming out in October called Beyond the Enneagram. And so that's pretty amazing to me that here I am doing this work at this time in my life, and I'm so grateful for it.

Yeah, I think for us, you know, Nick and I both the Enneagram. Well, to speak more to my story, when I was first introduced, it really did give me language. It helped me understand myself and. And a pretty big name in the Enneagram world right now, Ian Morgan Cron. He said it this way, that when you learn your type, you find that you stop stubbing your toe on your personality. You're finding it's not putting you in a box, it's helping you get out of the box or not have to live inside of it. I know for me, and I know we've had conversations, Nick, you and I, about it, just how it helps give us health and unhealth that gives us direction. It helps us understand ourselves better. And, you know, on the road to recovery and healing, that's so important. Anything you can do for more self awareness. Knowing why I do what I do and what motivates my behavior can always be super beneficial, right?

Absolutely. Yeah.

Yeah. That's the word that comes to mind for me is self awareness. That in the journey of recovery, so many of us were unaware of why we were doing what we don't want to do. What were the emotions that were driving us? What were the fears, anxieties and concerns that dominated our life? We. We were aware of the behaviors. We were aware of the outcomes. But that healing and recovery so often involves a self awareness of what's driving my life. And I think the Enneagram, we've tried to be careful to say it does not define us, but it helps us understand how we've been wired, how we've been created, and how living in a fallen world has impacted us, our family of origin. Because all those things together have created a sense of self. And we all want to bring that sense of self to God and understand how he's made us to be. And yet, even as we do that, you know, if you think about if every single one of us were living in a perfect understanding of who God has made us to be, we would all still be very different. That being perfected in Christ wouldn't make us all in the same. It would actually make us all more uniquely who God wired us to be. And I think the Enneagram is just one of the many tools that. That we've been able to use to come to a clear understanding of. I'm wired this way. And. And then what are the ways that. That maybe sin or Satan have tried to pull me away from how God wired me? And what does it look like to live out in health and in freedom? God's wiring. And so that's. That's kind of. I know a big part of what you train on, Marilyn, in your book, you call it the adapted self, or we have the. The authentic self. And so talk to us a little bit about that, like, what is our authentic self? What is the adapted self? And how could we learn to recognize the difference between those two?

Yeah. Thank you, Nick. That, you know, you threw up some words there that are so important, and it's freedom. And also that the Enneagram doesn't define us, but it does describe a pattern. It's a way of just understanding a pattern that we're in. And so it's so helpful that way. So the adapt itself, authentic self. I use that, you know, quite a bit in my book and in my work. The authentic self, similar to what you said, Nick, is we're created in God's image. We are created to experience and express. And I think we're all wired to have a, you know, just some of those stellar qualities that are a reflection of God's image. And when we live in those where there's a sense of freedom and peace and hope and all of those, you know, qualities that we all long to experience and that Jesus came to help us experience, you know, to show us the way to experience that. But our adapted self. I really. When I was writing the book, I just I read a lot on false self, true self.

Yeah.

And the false self language just didn't resonate with me because it felt like it was true. There was a truth to it. So it's false. Like it's just an illusion. It just. That were that true self, false self just didn't resonate with me. And I started thinking, well, it's really the adapted self because when we're born into this world, we have to figure out how to survive, but we have to adapt. When we're born into this world, we're free, we're expansive, we're open. There's, you know, we see that in the newborn baby how, you know, they're so, you know, ready to learn and grow, and that's the part of their survival. But pretty soon in life we figure out, oh, that doesn't work and that works, or that's a withholding of love. When I do that or when I do that, I get love, or what makes me help me stay safe or what gives me control. And so we adapt to the environment that we're in. Whatever it is, positive or negative, we adapt and we create this Persona that's really our self protection, our self survival. It's a strategy to navigate this world that we're thrown into and that we're a part of. And so it's an important part of our human development. It's not, you know, that we're just sinful. We have to be human and we have to figure out this, the world we live in. And then all of that becomes our ego, becomes our Persona, becomes our adaptive self. And I use the illustration, my book is like a seed coat around a seed. And if you think about a seed, it has this hard covering over the outside until the seed, which is really on the inside and the place where there's going to be growth and fruitfulness will grow from that seed. But at a, you know, the seed has a hard shell and we have to have that for a while, just get along. But that then that seed coat in transformation, really the movement to. To live more as our authentic self is letting go of all that seed coat that is there. And so that journey is really paying attention to what, what's my strategy or how am I striving to make myself somebody? And so that's what, you know, you asked about the adaptive self, authentic self. The growth from the adaptive self to the authentic self really to me is spiritual transformation.

Totally. Yeah.

And a lot of our listeners will be familiar with this concept. Like if they've gone through the seven pillars of freedom for men, or a lot of listeners have used the genesis process. And in both of those workbooks, there's some lessons that invite you to look at what are the masks that I've worn, Whether it's an entertainer, a performer, class clown, the victim. They're just ways I've learned to kind of make it work. And I think that's one of the important takeaways of those lessons, is not to beat ourselves up or shame ourselves over this adaptive self or this mask, but to recognize, why did it work? Why did I learn that this was a way to either avoid pain or navigate life or get a feeling of love or respect or appreciation. And then to me, the Enneagram helps kind of define why certain masks were so important to us. We see why, like, oh, that's why I'm a performer. That's why I'm driven to do that. And rather than, again, shame ourselves over it, it's looking at why it worked and how we can grow and mature, that we could take off the mask. We could shed the seed coat and say, I don't. I don't need that to receive these things, because I'm learning to live out of a more true and authentic place. And so just to make that connection for a lot of our listeners, I think masks, false self, how we define it is maybe less important than recognizing these things worked for me. And how instead, in a healthy way, can I find these things?

Yeah, And I love that. Getting down to below the surface of why was that important to me? Why did it work for me? And often it's really identifying what is the false narrative that I've believed that led me to this. You know, the lies, the deceptions that this. This felt like it worked. And it kind of did work. And then it stops working after a while, and it really turns around and. And does the opposite of what you hoped it would is it actually takes you out.

Yeah. And we know that. We know that in the recovery world, too, that we use our unwanted sexual behaviors, the things that damaging our life. We use those as ways to protect ourselves. That is a part of our adapted self. They're ways to numb out the pain we've experienced or the trauma we experience in our childhood, our family of origin. And so that's what I love, personally, so much about the Enneagram is it puts a lot of language to what we already experience. And I don't think it's like a. There's no, like, perfect connection between, you know, two systems or two approaches. But I do see tons of overlap with how the Enneagram helps us understand ourselves and the ways that we've. I love the word you use, like protect. Cause that's really what it is. My addiction protected me. My adapted self protects me from the pain that maybe I once experienced and don't want to again. So I love that overlap. But, Marilyn, as we kind of continue in, how does you know in your work and your experience, maybe even talk through how you discuss it in your books? How does the Enneagram help us understand ourselves and what steps we need to take to get out of that adapted self and more into the authentic self?

Mm. Well, I know that this is, you know, a lot of what probably what you do and what you encourage your people that follow you to do that are in recovery and healing is really so. It's so, so important to pay attention to yourself, to know where your focus of attention is. That's a big piece of Enneagram learning is the focus of attention, because that. But we have agency over. We can say, oh, wow, I'm really focused on getting this or doing this. And, you know, each Enneagram type has a certain pattern of focus of attention. And then when we can identify that, we can shift our focus of attention really quite easily if we know that that's what we're doing. And so that's, you know, to encourage. I always say, you've got to pause. You have to pause, step back, not react, but take a da. Take a breath and pause and go, what's going on inside of me? Where's my focus? What's happening? What am I believing here? What am I tempted to do? And why? So that is really a key to moving from that. Just the, you know, the adapt itself is reactive. It's just acting out of reactivity. And to become a more receptive, responsive person is really the growth toward freedom, towards groundedness, towards living a more centered life and more, you know, being able to live in that kind of freedom. So the other thing I was thinking about just this morning when I was preparing is. And actually, I've never thought about this before, before in this context, but I was thinking about what is what we think about. You know, our minds are just the trap, you know, where we get, you know, a lot goes on. And I was realizing in Philippians 4, Paul talks about think on these things, think on what is pure and lovely and worthy. And I thought, that's really thinking about our authentic self, thinking about what is pure, what is lovely about how God made me. It's not just out there, lovely, pure, wonderful, worthy of praise think. But what's lovely and pure and worthy of praise and admirable in me that how God created me and to focus our attention on that, well, that's a big shift from oh, the false, oh, I'm this, I'm that, and I fail, I'm that. You know, all the self judgment that we pour on ourselves and to be able to shift our focus of attention to how God made us and what's really good about our good about how he made us and how we live, how we can live that out. So that was a, you know, an interesting thing to look at. That's cool for me this morning. Yeah, just today, like, aha.

Yeah, yeah. I think for me, I identify as a 7 and that I remember when I first identified, I was just like, oh no, like this makes way too much sense and there's a lot of negatives here. And you know, but one of the things that has helped me, and it's funny, I've told this story before that when I was a pastor, I could never remember people's names. I could never, like, I would meet somebody and be like, I've seen you before. I know you've gone to my church for a couple years. I still don't know your name. And I would feel honestly so much shame. Like, I just, I'm a terrible pastor. I'm a terrible person. But what I learned about a 7 is that my brain is on hyperdrive all the time. I'm always living in the future, thinking about the next thing, and I'm always jumping from one thing to the next and one thing to the next. And so I was like, oh, I naturally have a scatterbrain unless I'm able to hone it in. And so for me, in a very simple way, and no one knew that, you know, at the time, but that helped me diminish tons of shame. Okay, I'm not going to be the person who remembers everyone's information. Like, that's my wife, she's a six. She just remembers everything and keeps this Rolodex of info. I don't know how she does it, but for me, I can live in. More to the, I'm the spontaneous, joyful, creative, fun person that I can just be who I am and not have to worry about all the things that I think I should be, quote unquote. So that for me is how the enneagram has helped maybe shift my, my perspective of myself to your point, like, what are the Things that God has made into me to be who I am and what I bring to the community I'm in, rather than what are the things I might think I'm lacking.

Yeah, that. That's beautiful. Thank you for sharing that, Trevor. And it's that accepting the high qualities that. How God is wired and when we don't accept ourselves, when we're always negative and have that false narrative, you know, and the messages that we've heard from other people, those things that have been laid on us when we're living in that we, you know, we're really in bondage and stuck in that false narrative. And so to move away from that is really a. A key to shift our attention to what's positive about us, how God's made us.

Yeah.

Yeah. You know, more than ever before, that sense of who we should be, I think is in front of us. Whether social media, just, you know, on smartphones, we see the life we feel like we're supposed to be living and whatever that is, you know, whether we're more performance driven and we think we should be more successful or we're a stay at home mom or parent and we feel like we should be better with our kids or doing more crafts. And we see all these, you know, crafty moms on Instagram. It's like, how are they doing all that? And I barely have time to get my kids dressed and like, get them a bowl of cereal. And so we just shouldn't, you know, Brandon Manning called it we should on ourself. I should do this, I should do that, I should do this. And it becomes a way of perpetuating, I think, that adaptive self or that sense of who I should be, rather than being able to pause and again, going back to what we do with recovery, being able to accept our limits, being able to accept what we're not, being able to accept the things that we don't have time for so that we can appreciate what we are called to and we do have time for and finding contentment with that rather than living in the anxiety of all the things that I should be. And so, Marilyn, can you give some examples? You've talked about the need when we're recognizing we're kind of living in that adaptive self and we're trying to be something that we're not. You said we need to just shift our focus. We need to change that perspective. Can you give some examples of what that might look like to come back to living out of our authentic self and connect it to the enneagram? Like how can knowing our Enneagram number help us to make that shift of coming into, well, this is who I really am. How do we make that shift and connect to our number?

Thank you. Yeah. Well, in my book, I spell out, you know, I talk about the wow qualities of each type, the way God has wired us. And so I think becoming. So often the Enneagram is seen as, oh, it's so negative. It has that negative side because our fault, you know, our adaptive self is being exposed. But to really pay attention to the wow qualities, the. So I'll just use an example. For me, I identify with type 9, as I said. So I'm peaceful. I want harmony. I want everyone to be connected and have that oneness. And so even when I'm agitated or upset or anxious, even that I can say, what am I trying to express here? That really is my truest self, is that I want peace in this situation, but I'm going about it in my own efforts. And so I use an example in my book of planning family vacation, and we have a large family now. And I would just be so agitated and anxious and angry at trying to prep for that, because I wanted everybody to be at peace and happy and good. But I was trying to do it on my own. I was trying to express it on my own. And then when I pause and went, okay, what's going on with me right now? Well, I want everybody to have a good time. That's a positive thing. That's a. I want everybody to get along and this to be a harmonious. But. But I can't make that happen. I can just set the stage and I need to be. And then I had to come into. I'm just going to be at peace with myself and with God and trust that this will unfold as it should and that my presence would just be rest. I mean, I was the last, you know, the least peaceful person in the room. And that wasn't helping. So it really is those small things. It can be really subtle that you don't. Even if you're paying attention, you go, okay, what's going on with me? Oh, and. But also recognizing I'm trying to express my truest, best self in the wrong way. And to even accept that, I think is a, you know, freedom. There's a freedom there. So, you know, for my husband, he's identifies with type 3 as an other example. So when he's got. He has all these grant, you know, these visions for things, maybe an event that he's really invested in planning and he can see it happening in the future and he's working and his team is slow getting on board. And so he really gets anxious and uptight and frustrated and irritable. And when I went down, I said, are you afraid that this is going to fail? That it won't meet your expectation? He said, yes, that's what it is, you know, and he didn't know that that underlying story, the kind of underlying engine was running that, oh, this could not live up to what I hyped it to be. Oh, it's going to be a statement on myself. And so then when you could just, okay, just, you know. But he's trying, you know, in his true self, really wanting to create an amazing event for everyone to. To, you know, participate in and have it be what it is. But he had to get in touch with, oh, I'm afraid to fail here. So letting that go. So those are just, you know, two personal examples. Yeah, I know that helps.

Yeah, no, for sure. I think just being a seven, I know for me, I run away from pain. That is my thing that I just want to. I do not like discomfort. I don't like being bored, because bored equals discomfort in my mind. I'm not good at small talk for that exact reason. But I've realized that for me, if I'm always running away from my pain, the pain, when I come back, it's still there. And so for me, I've learned that. And just learning the enneagram, that sometimes swimming upstream is actually the best thing for me where I slow down and I'm able to be present and I'm able to sit with my emotions. And because for me, I think myself that hyperdrive brain, like, I think myself out of feeling my emotions because I'm afraid they'll be painful. And so if I'm able to actually sit in it, what I found is that for me, that's actually how I avoid that pain. I'm able to process through it. I'm able to sit in there. And I've also noticed that something for me that I pay attention to is external. If I'm acting a certain way, you can look at how it's impacting the people around you and make an assessment. Am I living in my adapted self or my authentic self? Am I pushing into community and drawing out what's best in people? Or am I just getting people on my agenda so that I can accomplish what I want to accomplish? And, you know, case in point, my children. I mean, all you have to do is interview my five Year old and my two year old and they'd probably be able to say that. So I think for me, it's paying attention to. Paying attention to my emotions sitting in that, being present, but then also paying attention to the people around me. How is how I'm carrying myself impacting them? Is it creating joy and positive experiences for them or is it kind of just pulling them along, dragging them on the floor, which. No one enjoys that.

Yeah. And I would add to that Trevor. It's Trevor, right?

Yes.

That you're running away from pain is really wanting to. You want joy, you want optimism. There's a motivation. There's a motivation that's negative. But the deeper motivation is that you want to experience and express joy. And so pain doesn't seem to fit into that. And so you run to something next, but realizing, oh no, right here is enough. And there's even joy in the pain, which is such an oxymoron to that. It's just recognizing that deep one level, but then the deeper level of what you're really longing for deep down. And what's an expression of God's image through you that you wanted to express?

We just landed on the title of my memoir. Right there. She just nailed it. Joy in the pain.

Yeah.

Joy in the pain.

Yeah. Okay, there you go.

For me, when I find I'm living in that adaptive self, you know, I'm also a three on the Enneagram. And so the achieve, perform, success. And when I find that I'm really stuck in maybe the negative sides of those of fear, of failure and am I enough? And how many people are impressed with what I've done, I think it's helpful to try to pause and recognize for me how I'm looking to find in or through other people what I was ultimately designed to find in Christ and in my faith in God that he made us to want to feel respected, to feel appreciated, to feel noticed. And yet if we're always seeking that in other people, other people sooner or later will always let us down. And so it's taking those legitimate needs to God and knowing that the Creator of the universe notices, the Creator of the universe is proud, is watching what I do and kind of taking it to that concept of the audience of one, that when I live as a three before the audience of one and find my approval in him, then it frees me, I think, to use the positive aspects of being an achiever for the good of others. Like, let's create great experiences, let's do something together and all lead the way. But I don't need others to give me that input. And so to me, that would be. Maybe the thing I would look at is how do we make that shift from adaptive self to authentic? Is just recognizing where am I trying to get from others, what I was designed to find from God, and so how do I take it back to him and reconnect with who he's made me to be?

Yeah. I love that your inherent value is already established. You don't have to try to create your own value. It's already established that God created you and made you and sees you as valuable beyond, you know, anyone else, you know the same as anyone else, that that's where your value is. And it's already. It's already a done deal in the very beginning.

Yeah. One of my favorite parts about the Enneagram is that it can be used, I think, very well and strategically for spiritual formation. I mean, the idea of becoming more like Christ, living into who God has created us to be, which is an image bearer. So how do we incorporate the Enneagram in this process of. Think holistic health? I mean, we're talking spirituality, emotional, sexual, all of that. How do we incorporate the Enneagram into our holistic health?

Yeah. Thanks for asking. Well, I sent you. So I sent you a new picture that you have. And this is developed in my new book called beyond the Enneagram, An Invitation to Experience a More Centered Life with God. It was the subtitle and I created in my work with the Enneagram, I started noticing there's really a limitation to what it can do. Obviously, we know that it's not the. It's not God, and it's not the key answer to anything. It's a helpful tool. But I thought, you know, there's a bigger story going on in our spiritual formation. And so this image has all these concentric circles, and it's really the movement from the authentic self to the adapted self. Well, the outside circle. And it's. You know, I have several different iterations of this image or this new diagram in my book, which explains it more than the one simple one I sent you.

Yep.

Is that. That outer. It were in the arrows. This is. You know, I'm kind of changing up the Enneagram a little bit or adding to it is, you know, the arrows around the Enneagram, they don't land anywhere they go. They're helpful, and they're good. But I have arrows toward the middle. And in my first book, I developed that we. There's no Place on the Enneagram where the Spirit is illustrated. We have the head, heart, and gut. Intelligence is. But where's the spirit? If this is the spiritual, where is the spirit? We have a spirit as well that is in connection with God. So I put it in the middle. And so this new image has God toward the middle. And that we are being drawn always by God to be toward the middle, where there's pure love, pure hope, your joy, all of those things that then we can express that in our life. I'm not doing. I hope I'm entice team you to look at my new. My new image. I call it the drawing because it is a drawing, but it's the drawing of God. Yes, God is drawing us to him, to the center, with him always, even if we don't know that that's happening. And so the Enneagram, Cyrus, fits there in our journey toward the middle. CS Lewis says, come further in. So many images are like, go to the center, go to the middle. God is calling us to the middle. And so the Enneagram is a tool that fits into that journey. But it's not the be all, end all. But it is, as we've already discovered and talked, a great discovery tool. And so it's part of the journey. It's not the full journey of spiritual formation. Yeah, it does. It won't get us there. It has its limitations. And I think there, you know, I created this drawing to illustrate the bigger picture of spiritual formation that I think is really important and missing in the current in the kind of classic Enneagram model. So it's a movement toward the middle. And so that, to me, is spiritual formation. And the biggest thing is, which way are we turned? Is our trajectory at least that we're keep, you know, turning our focus. Like Jesus says, come to me. Come to me. Come, follow me. Come. The invitation. Are we turned toward that or are we turned away? When we're turned away, our adapted self gets full reign. And when we're turned towards God, we're on this pilgrimage of spiritual freedom, Spiritual, you know, full union with God. So I hope, you know, that it's a little more, you know, explain it a little bit more and obviously a lot more in my new book. But I think there was a need for a new picture. Yeah, a bigger picture of the spiritual journey than what the Enneagram itself provides. So that's what I've created.

So, again, Maren, could you give some examples, like even as a nine through your own Enneagram number, how would you Approach that center, you know, coming back to the heart of God and your true self as an enneagram. 9. Like, what would some examples of that be? Because I think that could help people really conceptualize what you're talking about here.

Okay. So, yeah, I can get really stuck in the false belief that I. I don't matter. And that I, in order to matter, I need to keep the peace. I need to make everybody happy around me. And I can. And you know, there's that piece of it. There's resignation. Like, oh, well, you know, you know, I don't really matter, so I'm just going to go along with everybody else. But inside, I'm stubbornly resentful of all of that.

Yeah.

And so I know that I've got. And I have nine have this disconnect between their outer and their inner because there's the stubbornness going on, but there's a smile going on. Yeah. Oh, yeah, whatever. Inside, like, no way. Forget it. I'm free. I'm mad at you, you know, and so I pay an attention to that. I can look at. Where'd that come from? You know, okay. You know, and looking at my family of origin or looking at the patterns and things, I started to believe that why that worked, why that was my strategy. And really in this journey toward. I don't know how to. It's. It's so profound, but so simple, is just turning to God and turning my attention toward God and just inviting the thing that. Yeah, this is what I would say, you know, is welcoming that part of me and welcoming God into it. So often in the Christian world that we, you know, that I was raised in is we give it to God. We give it all to God. We just give it to God for God to deal with. But really, it. I don't know about you, but that doesn't actually ever work very often because it comes roaring right back, you know, there it is again. Oh, God, God, you take care of this rather than welcoming God into it. So when I'm feeling resigned or angry that I don't matter, instead of, you know, passing it off, because I don't like that. I don't like that feeling. God, I just welcome you right into this resentment or resignation. And Lord, be with God. Jesus said, I'm with you always, even to the end of the age. So God is with us in that. And there's something that just dispels it. When God enters into it with us, that he's there with us. There's just. I see this all the Time. In my work and spiritual direction, when I meet with people, we pause and say, okay, what's the feeling you're having? Where do you feel it? And what's it like for you to welcome God into that place?

That's good.

And it, like, it just. It just transforms it into something then. And then there's space for God to speak and to heal and to, you know, be present to it and. And shift it. There's just a transformation that happens. You know, it's a mystery how it all works. I would say the welcoming is a really big welcoming ourselves, welcoming it. Also welcoming what our experience is, rather than pushing it away or feeling shame, as you said earlier, or, you know, being anxious or putting ourselves down. Say, okay, here it is. There's that lust. I welcome it. You know, what's it like to welcome lust? We don't, you know, or welcome any those feelings and welcome them so that they're there and welcoming God right into it. So I think that's a big step.

Yeah, I think that's really good. It makes me think of something you've talked about on the podcast, Trevor, that a lot of Christian preaching can break down to God is good. You're not, go try harder. Go be better. And I think what you just described, Marilyn, in that process that many of us go through, when we realize, okay, I'm buying into a false belief, I'm living out my adaptive self, and maybe in health and recovery, we're starting to have an awareness of where it came from. But then that can be kind of a guilty moment, like, okay, I need to stop doing that. Hear God, you take it, and I'm going to go try harder not to do that anymore. And then, as you pointed out, we usually just come right back to it and we're in it again, and it doesn't change versus going through that process of recognizing the false beliefs, becoming aware of maybe where it came from or what's driving it. But then, rather than shaming or guilting ourselves, just welcoming God into that with us and asking for him to lead us through it and explore what do we need to do with it feels like a much more transformative process than just, you know, trying to give it to God and hope it goes away. It's. It's having him meet us in the midst of the very things we're experiencing and letting him teach us, letting him train us for what needs to change, what steps to take next. And I really like that approach. That. That sounds good to me.

Yep.

Yeah, it's very yeah. You know, God is. God is amazing. What he. He can transform the water into wine, you know, you can trans. We just see the example of Jesus all through the script. He transformed, transformed, transformed, transformed. And people came to him desperate and ready, you know, eager to let him transform. And so that's part of the journey, is just welcoming the presence of Jesus, the power of God, the love of God, right into the middle of our. Yuck.

Yeah, it's funny, too. I was thinking about that passage, like, continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling. The passage does not say, and then let God work out your salvation. He's got it. There is an active participation that we have in that. And I think we need to remember that we walk in step with the Holy Spirit as we're developing as followers of Jesus. He's not just doing the work, and we're on autopilot. Like, God doesn't have full control of the joystick. You could argue me theologically, but the way we experience it, I don't feel like God has the joystick and is moving my life around. Like, I am active in that as well. And so I think we need to. I mean, that's just the picture that came to me just from Paul's words, that we have an active role in that as well as we look inward and invite God into those spaces and work together to then develop.

Yeah, absolutely.

So, Marilyn, you've coached so many people in this area, and how would you say. How have you seen. Having an awareness of our enneagram number could help us in healing and recovery. When you've coached people in this, what. What has helped them connect their enneagram number to a process of healing and recovery in their life?

I think it really is that catching yourself in the act. And as you said earlier about, you know, you realize you just stub your toe against something and stopping and welcoming, pausing and letting God transform it. I mean, it's such a mystery to. To me, it's not formulaic as we know, and each person's story is unique to them. And there isn't kind of a one way, one size fits all in this journey of life and this pilgrimage toward the center with God. And just. It's waking up the awareness. And it just goes so much. To me, the question, the enneagram is helpful, but it's God who does the work. It's the Holy Spirit that does the work. And the Enneagram gives us the language, but it certainly isn't the Spirit. It's not. And so I really Quite frankly, the reason I wrote the new book beyond the Enneagram is I saw all these limitations and that we can get stuck on thinking knowing our Enneagram type is going to free us and it doesn't, it helps us. But there's more to our story than just what our Enneagram type is.

Absolutely. Yeah. And I feel like if anything, the understanding our Enneagram type gives us a path to walk, but we still have to walk it. Like for me, knowing that in stress I go to A1. So for me, I can see when I'm starting to chirp at people and get really task oriented and pulling back from relationship. I know for me I'm not in a healthy spot. I'm in a spot where I'm stressful. And the thing too is the Enneagram has helped me one of my core. And Marilyn, if I'm wrong, you can email me about it later. But I think one of the core things for me beliefs as a child growing up is that no one cares about my needs. And a seven is the deadly sin is gluttony. So for me, I'm all about me and getting mine as much as I can because there's this deep seated belief that you don't actually care about me or my needs. And so the irony is as a parent, my 5 year old does something that's disrespectful to me. I interpret that as you don't care about me and my needs. And so I react. I become go to your room, get a spanking, you lose this privilege. And for me that is evidence that I'm actually leaning more into stress. And that's the area of unhealth, the shadow side. I know some people use that language, but for me, if I'm able to be present and disconnect that and sit with that emotion, which is moving toward a 5, which is what sevens do when they're in security, then I can handle that situation. I can be present in that moment and I don't have to try to escape all those feelings and all those emotions. And so for me, that's how the Enneagram has helped me is understand there's a huge trigger around respect, disrespect someone caring for my needs or not caring for my needs. My own interpretation in so many ways. If you were to go back and look at my pornography addiction, it was all moments of rejection or lack of respect. Over and over I internalized this person. Doesn't care about me, doesn't care about my needs, doesn't care about my story. And so I'll just go somewhere that will never disrespect me and will never reject me. So for me, that's just a practical way. It's helped me as a seven. I know that's not the same for everybody, but it's helped me understand motivating factors and the fear or the core wound maybe that I've experienced as a kid that I'm really running away from.

Yeah, the illustration. One illustration I use is my husband and I went on a raft trip down the Copper river in Alaska, and it was really dangerous. And we had two guides. You know, there were two raft. Two boats, two of us, you know, two couples, I should say, and two guys. And we had these bobbing rafts down the Copper river, and it was really high season for water, and. And our guides were paying attention to the water all the time. And they were noticing if there were eddies or vortexes that were where the water. You know, there's a massive amount of water. It's all going toward the mouth of the river. But there were these swirls, and you've all seen those eddies or vortexes that happen. And some were big enough to pull the boat out of the flow. And I use that illustration because the guides knew if there's this swirl of water, there's something below there that's causing this. There's a obstacle, there's a rock, there's a formation. There's something that. Creating this vortex. And to avoid that or to at least pay attention to it, I mean, the illustration kind of breaks down because we don't want to avoid it. But if. But it's paying attention to when are we caught in a vortex? Like you said, when am I caught in a vortex of angry at my child for acting out or just being disrespectful, or for me, I'm caught in a vortex that I was dismissed. I mean, for the nine to be dismissed, I could, you know, if I felt like someone just dismissed my thoughts, then I get caught in a vortex. You know, that's the mental vortex, an emotional vortex, whatever body vortex, and just go, whoa. What is underneath that? What just got me out of the flow? The holy spirit, the freedom, the love, the joy. What's that vortex? And it's paying attention to what's below the surface because there's so much. Some trigger, as you use that word, some trigger that's caught. Gets. Getting me caught in that swirl. That's not good. You know, not a helpful thing. And not where I want to be. And we're not where God wants me to be.

Yeah, yeah, I was thinking about it. It's knowing what does it feel like when I'm living in the adaptive self or when I'm wearing that mask and becoming more and more aware of this is just what it feels like. And then conversely, what does it feel like when I'm living out my authentic self, when I'm. When I'm firmly alive and okay and who God made me to be? And the more distinct those two feel, I think we more quickly recognize, oh, I'm getting back into that, that old pattern and I think healing, you know, to bring up one of our tools for our listeners that may be familiar with that three circles tool, your enneagram number, I think can be such a crucial part of that outer third circle of what does health and recovery look like for me? Because what one person pursues for recovery may be vastly different than what another needs. And so for me, as I embrace what God has wired me for, I could see that when I have opportunities to speak, to preach, to deliver a message, that to me is actually an outer circle activity because I feel like I'm using my gift. I feel alive, I feel connected. It helps me focus on a message and really process. And then having delivered, it often creates that feeling of I did something of value, where for another person, like, preaching a sermon would be a huge trigger and all these fears and tons of like, that would not be there. And so everyone said, well, man, something you need to do is try to preach at least once a month. They'd be like, you know, shoot me now. But for me to be like, yes, I need to do that, I think for all of us, just seeing what are those healthy behaviors that increase that sense of connectedness to God, self and others, you know, so for the individualist, sitting quietly alone might be amazing. And then for other people, like, no, I would be so stir crazy. So having that freedom to know this is a place I can go when I'm seeing those swirling eddies in my life, I'm realizing I'm triggered back into some of those old patterns. Where do I go to? And if we're able to connect it to our enneagram, then I think we have some peace about. Well, it doesn't have to look the same for everybody. Your recovery, my recovery, what you do for health, what I do for health may look very, very different. But if it connects to how I feel, God wired me, I think we're going to have a lot of success. Then in replacing those negative behaviors with things that are more fulfilling and living out that true, authentic self.

Absolutely.

Yeah. Wouldn't it be amazing if everyone was living in their true, authentic self as God created them to be? This world would be a whole different place.

My life would be so much easier.

Well, I think that's. Honestly, in some ways, I think that's a reflection of what heaven is. What we're moving through towards is. Is a society where every single person has no mask to wear, no, you know, no show. They're just living out of who God authentically made them to be and in connection with God, self and others. Like, yeah, that will be amazing. And I think that's what we're moving towards. And so we're in the process of becoming like what I believe in eternity we will all be. And that. That, to me, is very encouraging.

Totally.

It is encouraging. Yeah. It's exciting to think about, isn't it?

So, Marilyn, as some. Some Christians are skeptical about the Enneagram. And I mean, like, we've even, you know, had some people who express some concern when we've had this conversation on the podcast already a couple of times. How would you answer those concerns that people have and help Christians to see the value of this tool? Cause you've mentioned already, this is not the perfect tool. This is not the only tool.

This is not God, it's not the.

Spirit, but it is a tool we can use. How would you answer that from a biblical worldview, those concerns people have.

Thanks. Yeah, that question does come up. You know, the roots are kind of of the Enneagram or sketchy or they're not even really well known. It's not a direct path on who created this. Not like the Myers, Briggs for whoever. Myers and Briggs sat down and created this tool. And we know where it evolved, where it started and who developed it, and we can figure that out and some of the basis for that kind of a tool. But the Enneagram is a little bit, you know, wandering, where'd this come from? And so I think that does create some caution. And it doesn't help that it looks like a pentagram and it looks very New Agey. And so that is a caution too. Actually, you mentioned Jeff and Beth McCord. They wrote a great article that you could include in your show notes if you want, on the Enneagram and the Christian perspective. They really did a very thorough, very good job with that. And so I would suggest looking at that more thoroughly. It's a tool and I personally don't care about the roots of it. And so it's hard for me to get into that question. I'm just be honest. It's helpful, it's something good, but you can't put too much weight on it in terms of this is the be all, end all answer to the biblical, the Jesus centered life. It's just, it's a tool and it's a really powerful one and helpful. But even, you know, just. And kind of narrowing our perspective down to, oh, well, you know, only nines do this, or, you know, yeah, this is what I do when I'm healthy and this to, you know, to. I call it a bounded set approach in my new book. Rather than a centered set approach, it can become a bounded set. And so I think there is reason to have caution. But I think it, you know, the whole title of my book, I mean, the title of my first book, Self to Lose Self Define, was based on that reality that Jesus said. And this was such an aha moment for me. Jesus said, you know, if you save your life, you'll lose it. If you lose your life, for my sake, you'll find it. And I went, there's a self defined. I was so taught that it's all about losing the self, Losing, losing, losing the self. And when I woke up one morning and said, that's the book I'm supposed to write, I thought, well, an enneagram can be a helpful tool on defining the self to lose and the self find. And it's a helpful instrument in the hands of God to teach us and lead us. And I just, you know, like I said, I just am not one of those that worries about, you know, where the Christmas tree developed from. So I shouldn't have one.

That's good.

I just don't put a lot of emphasis on that.

You're spot on. It's a tool. And how the tool is used, I think really determines the value because a tool can be used for evil and a tool can be used for good. I was thinking about, as you were talking, something as simple as the candle. I've heard, I've seen a lot of movies that candles can be used in a lot of evil ceremonies, seances, practices. And so we could look at that. Oh, man. A Christian should never burn a candle like, well, yet at the same time, the candle's been a beautiful representation of light in our world and lighting the Advent wreath and lighting candles as a part of our coming into prayer and God's presence. So it's the same medium. But how are you. What are you using it for what's the purpose of it? And I think you could use the Enneagram to kind of remove God from the picture and create kind of a very humanistic, I think, worldview. And some people have done that. And maybe that's why there are Christians that feel like, oh, we better be careful with it. But at the same time, what I see is we know God created humans with personalities. God made us with distinctions and differences. And so the Enneagram is one of those tools that tries to help us and not perfectly. And I think that's where people have pushback too, is like, well, don't put me in a box. Don't put me in a category. It's like, yeah, you're not like perfectly any of them. But if you can kind of understand yourself through this lens and it brings greater self awareness of what are my traps, what are the things I'm tempted to buy into about my value, worth and identity? And what does it look like to just relax and be who God made me to be? If your Enneagram number and understanding can heighten that, well, then it's a tool being used for really good purposes. And if it doesn't have overtly evil things about it, like God uses that, you know, a hammer can build a house, and a hammer could has been used in violence. So it's the hands that it's in and the purpose for it. And I think you explained that really well, Marilyn. So we're not going to make everybody happy, but I think that's the heart of this podcast. Just how do we help?

And there's a caution about idolizing it too much.

Totally.

Like, depending on it as the defining tool of understanding yourself, it can be used in, even for good, in the wrong way.

Totally.

You know, then that way, by making. Idolizing it, making it too, too much. The answer, like everything I do is about my Enneagram type. Well, not really. It has an influence, but it doesn't describe everything about me.

Yeah, my, my therapist says that therapy is. Is someone helping you put language to your experience. And I think that the Enneagram can be used the same way. It's just putting language to what we experience internally, externally, and can just use it as that tool. And not everyone gets therapy. Not everyone has to use the Enneagram, but it is a tool that can help put language there.

Although I think everyone could value from therapy 100%.

And candles, if you don't like candles, who are you? Get out of here. Send them all to me. I will Take them all.

So, Marilyn, in your work, you do have a pathway to freedom that you have called Own Up. Can you walk us through that? The path that you lay out, what does that look like? To own up as a way towards freedom?

Yeah. And yeah, thank you. I developed this just. And you know, part of what people are cautious about, I think I meant to say too, in the Christian world, or at least in the evangelical world that I've been a part of, is that we aren't taught that it's okay to be self reflective. We kind of. That was like, no, yeah, you know, that's too self oriented. And so we didn't have a lot of. We haven't had. I wasn't taught a lot of skills with that. And so I developed this tool just to, you know, kind of guide the process. And it's called Own up. And it really helps us own up to our best self and own up to when we're in our adapted self. And so it's an acronym for observe, which you talked about earlier. You know, talked about already. Just the importance of observing like, wow, I'm angry or I slammed the door or I'm, I'm really uptight or I'm envious or whatever. Just pause and be observant. Like and just from a neutral, non judgmental, not shaming, just like I'm angry or I'm lustful or I'm whatever. And observing that and then welcome is the W. Own up. And we talked about welcome already. And that to me, that shifts it all if we welcome and then to name. And this is where the enneagram gets so helpful is just name. What's going on here? Name. And I have a lot of, you know, in the. And people can download this on my website too. Just the, the form and some questions like. And that's, you know, what. Giving more definition or more words to what's going on and naming it. What am I afraid of? What am I avoiding? But how is my any. How am I trying to express my any, my best self in the wrong way? Those kind of questions. And then the U is to untangle and really paint. It's like a ball of yarn that's all tangled up and in the knot. And you have to find the one thing that's, you know, if you get that one loop, then you loosen that up and everything else kind of falls away. And so really is kind of. What is the gist of this? In this situation, I felt dismissed. You know, for me, okay, the key is when someone said that I Felt dismissed. And that makes me feel like I don't matter. So that's the loop. So then I can release that and say, I do matter. That's a lie. And I can let it go with God, part of that. And then when you let go of it, the P is possess what comes, because something new will come into that void. So I've let go of this lie that I don't matter, that I was triggered to believe. And why does God. You know, if something new comes in, it could be peace. It's a new idea. It's an awareness. I do matter. And God, thank you that you love me so much. And I do matter. And actually, I think I'm going to talk to that person. I may have some. Some resolve to that tricky situation that I found, my. Whatever. But to possess what God gives you in that moment, and that's yours. And it's a gift from God that comes into that void, that when you've let something go, then there's space for that. So it's in that spacious place. So that's. Own up.

That's good.

Observe. Welcome. Name, untangle and possess.

Yeah, that's good. Acronyms are so easy to remember, too. So it's going to be. Yeah, so definitely write that. Unless you're driving. Don't write it down.

Pull over.

Write it down in your phone. Voice memo something.

Well, it sounds like a great tool to download as well, just to walk through that when you're in the midst of knowing I'm triggered by something I'm stuck in. Something really healthy.

Yeah, that's a really, really good.

And it's good in the. It's good in the moment, but it's also good for reflection. Like, whoa, that was.

That.

Why did I get in a fight with that person? Or what was. You know, and to reflect back, like, oh, that's what was going on.

Yeah.

You know, so it's a good reflection tool for later, you know, after something's happened and you're kind of wondering what. Ooh, I don't feel good about that. I. Something happened there. Let's unpack us. And, you know, God, you and I, we need to unpack this and see what was really going on below the surface. What was that vortex about?

Yeah, Marilyn, we've mentioned it already a number of times. Your new book, beyond the Enneagram, an invitation to experience a more centered life with God. Why don't you just tell us about it? Where can our listeners find it? Preorder it. Why should they buy it? Just take you know, take the shot here.

Yeah, no, I'm really excited about it coming out. It will be released in October of 2022 this year. So. But it is on, you know, you could pre order it on any place, I think, especially, you know, I know it's on Amazon.

Got it.

So it developed out of me seeing the limitations of the Enneagram. And also in my first book, I mentioned the spiritual center that I. Nobody else has really placed anything in the middle, that middle space of the Enneagram. So I thought, well, it feels like the spirit belongs there. And then the more I've thought about a centered life with God. And so I just really developed that and explain this new drawing. But I also. The second half of the book is so. So much of this. Well, the spiritual life is movement towards being drawn to God. It's a movement. It's not, okay, I'm here now. I'm here. It's like our pilgrimage is our life journey. And so I break down some of the movements we can experience. Like moving from what I am to who I am. Moving from reactive to responsive. Moving from bondage to freedom. I mean, these are all scriptural content. And from shakeable to unshakable, from burden to rested. The Glory to glory is the last one, which is my favorite. And this is where God is moving us from something to something. And so I just fell out and I fill it in with lots of stories of people I meet with my own life. It really is. I use the metaphor as soup. This book is. And it's really bringing in all the ingredients that have been meaningful to me and stories of other people and just putting it in a pot and it simmers and hopefully it's a nourishing meal for the soul.

Yeah, that's awesome. Well, we will have absolutely the link in the show notes for you to pre order that we do suggest it. And you know, as I'm just thinking of, you know, listeners, you've made it through this episode, just understanding what we've already said, that the Enneagram is a tool. If it's one that doesn't resonate with you or you don't feel like you have a deep connection to it, find other tools on your recovery and healing journey. But we know here personally, just even Nick and I, and obviously Marilyn, it has been a helpful tool for us as we've developed holistically, not just with our sexuality, but also understanding where we're at spiritually, emotionally, physically, all of that. So we do recommend you check out her books. Beyond the Enneagram and Self to Lose self defined. We'll make sure both of those links are in the show notes. Marilyn, thank you for what you do. Thanks for we love the integration using tools to help apply what God has done for us and the love he has for us. And so we just appreciate you, your work and your time with us today.

Well, it's an honor to be here and thank you for what you're doing as well.

Thank you. And wherever you're at on your journey, pure desire is here to help create a road map for your healing. If you or someone you know is impacted by sexual brokenness or betrayal trauma, go to PureDesire.org and let's start the healing journey today. Don't forget to subscribe to the podcast. Each week we put out new content to help you on the road to healing and freedom. And lastly, never stop being healthy.