266 - Polygraphs & The Disclosure Process

Welcome to the Pure Desire Podcast, helping you take back your life from unwanted sexual behavior and betrayal trauma.

What's up?

What's up? I'm your host, Trevor Windsor, and you're listening to episode 266 of the Pure Desire podcast. Here joining me, as always, is my co host, Nicholas J. Stumbo.

I'm a real boy.

It needs to be higher. Can you do it higher?

I'm a real boy.

Listeners, you're welcome that I asked that question. Okay, so we'll get into it because I'm interested to see the tie in, as always. And also, let me just say this. I've gone back recently because after we record, I review, like, Justin edits them, makes them magical. I review them. I've been listening. You've been singing a lot. It's not just me. Like, you have been singing a lot.

That was not singing.

It was.

That's what I'm saying.

I'm saying, like, we've turned a page somewhere and maybe, you know, we're recording another episode today. You might actually sing. I don't know. I don't want to deter you, but today we had Tyler Chinson on. He's our clinical director and one of our clinicians. And we had him on to talk about kind of a weird, like, sticking point in the disclosure process. And we talked about polygraphs and how they fit into the full disclosure process.

Yeah, a really important conversation because I think for couples in particular that are working with Pure Desire or another csat, the full disclosure and polygraph is probably something that will come up. And most of us, quite frankly, just have never experienced a polygraph. It's like, wait a minute, this is usually for, like, drug testing or, you know, court cases. I've seen them on movies. Why would I do that? And so I hope in this podcast that we just kind of demystify the process and help a couple or a struggling spouse understand why it can be so crucial in the healing process. And related to the intro, you know, obviously that's Pinocchio and talking about becoming a real boy. And the story of Pinocchio is so applicable because every time he lied, his nose grew. There was no way to hide it. And I think for a lot of betrayed spouses, there's probably a part of them that wishes there was something like that, that anytime their struggling or addicted spouse lied, it was just obvious. But the truth is, we don't have that as human beings. And so many couples have lived in a very difficult situation where lies have been occurring. Deception has been going on Hidden behaviors, which leaves that betrayed spouse wondering, what can I trust? Because there's no Pinocchio nose growing. The polygraph in a way can become one of those signposts, one of those markers say, oh, I have the truth. I actually have something I can hold onto and see. And a professional person that does this for a living saying, no, there's honesty here and we can verify it by the results. So super important. I thought the conversation today was so good and just really glad that people can check it out. Even if you are not in a disclosure process or planning to do a polygraph. I think for every listener, there's just a ton of insight in this episode about honesty and how to create honesty in our relationships. And I think we all need that whether we end up doing a polygraph or not.

Yep, absolutely. And kind of an extension of that. One of the things we wanted to let people know is that we do offer a full disclosure counseling process and correct me if I'm wrong, a six session time where you go through the full disclosure process with a clinical couple that helps you through this, clinicians that we have on staff that walk a couple through this really difficult process. And yeah, maybe a polygraph will be a part of it, but it is something where you have those guides to walk you through that process.

Yeah, the typical pure desire counseling process is a 12 month engagement, a very specific pathway that we walk couples through. But we know that there are many reasons why couples may not be doing that with pure Desire. Maybe they've got a local counselor that they trust and they're going to. Maybe they're working with a CSAT from somewhere else or maybe finances have prevented them from doing the year long engagement. So the full disclosure process gives a couple an option to engage with the professionalism of our pure desire counseling team to go through this part of the process that for many is the most difficult piece and really have our expertise to walk you through it, to do disclosure, to do polygraph. And so even if you're working with another counselor or someone that this isn't really part of what they do. You could engage with pure desire for those six sessions. It's some work helping lead up to full disclosure and then a couple of sessions after the full disclosure so that you can really walk through what do we do now and then hopefully equipping you to go back to your local counselor or go back into your groups, having done that process and done it well and be equipped to move towards ongoing healing.

Yeah. And it is a very, very powerful process. If Done well and done with, you know, qualified people who can help you. So if you're interested in going through the disclosure process, counseling, you can go to PureDesire.orgstart-culling that start-culling and you can start that process through our website. A few other things before we get into the episode. Subscribe to the podcast. We're on all the major platforms and write us a review. Honestly, I see them, I love them, they mean a lot to us and it helps other people find the podcast. You can also follow us on social media, earedesirepdmi on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, LinkedIn, and then you also can find full episodes of our podcast up on YouTube. Just search Pure Desire Ministries. All right, here's our conversation with our clinical director, Tyler Chinson on polygraphs and the disclosure process. Tyler Chinson, welcome back to the podcast, man. It has been a while. We're glad to have you with us.

Thanks so much, Trevor. Nick, Good to be here.

We had you in like, in person in the office the last couple of days. I know. And then, and then you're now back in super hot Arizona and, you know, some of us are jealous. I don't know. I just don't feel like my skin is ready to get that crispy. But whatever. It's like a hundred something there today and it's like 58 here and raining, but whatever. That's not why we're here. But Tyler, as our clinical director, we wanted to have you speak into this. Cause today we're talking about really how the polygraph fits into, helps support, moves people through the disclosure process. And so with your expertise and going through this process with so many couples, we felt like you obviously have an inside look and some expertise as well. So let's just kind of jump in right away and just ask, can you walk us through what we mean? Because we've talked about this a lot. But when we say full disclosure, what do we mean? And then what does that full disclosure process look like with a Pure Desire clinician or another certified sex addiction? Sure.

What that means, Trevor, is an individual will map out his entire sexual history, usually a male, but the person struggling, and that's all exposure to sexualized images or sexualized behavior. So that's what a full disclosure means. And what does it look like with the PD clinician? The clinicians provide support both to the individual who struggles and also to the betrayed spouse. They're on a little bit of a parallel path, but they're both entering into this full disclosure process and they're well supported.

Nice.

Yeah. The full disclosure process is really getting beyond what is maybe the fundamental operating perspective of those who struggle. It's just secrecy, isolation, and the thought what they don't know won't hurt them. But so important in terms of that healing journey to really face and own up to what's gone on so that we can really work on healing it. Not an easy part of the process by any means. And something I think, frankly, Tyler, when we have people in groups or even when they're approaching pure desire, we kind of get that sentiment of like, why should I do this? Isn't it better that they don't know what they don't know won't hurt them? We hear some of those things even culturally. So I'm sure you get this question as you deal with couples and someone's maybe wide eyed thinking, I have to tell them what, everything. So from your perspective, why is the disclosure process so crucial for couples to walk through? Why is it worth facing that pain and the difficulty of acknowledging all those behaviors?

It is so important for the betrayed spouse to clear the deck of uncertainty. It is not fair to allow her to move forward with questions in her mind, questions in her heart. What can I truly believe? What about our past? You know, I thought we were good, but now I'm hearing that there's been secrecy in her marriage. So we just want to clear the deck of any uncertainty. For the betrayed spouse, it's only fair to her.

Yeah.

For the person who struggles, it's really important to come to grips with their story. And oftentimes through writing out the full disclosure story, they begin to connect some of the dots that led them to the behavior that's been so deeply entrenched for so long.

Yeah, I feel like one of the things with this, especially for the betrayed spouse, is if a couple is going to start getting into recovery and healing, the betrayed spouse specifically needs to know all the information in order to make those decisions moving forward. Like, if they're operating off of only knowing half the story, well, they may get six months, a year down the road, and then more of that story comes out and they're gonna feel like another, like another wave of betrayal trauma is gonna hit them again. And so this is a way to make sure that both parties have all the information that they need to make those decisions moving forward. Because there may be some, you know, this is obviously never our hope, but there may be some couples that get to the point where a betrayed spouse is, this is, this is too much. I cannot do this. And so withholding that information actually hurts the couple and prolongs and actually makes it worse when the rest of that information comes out. So I think both spouses need to have this information, primarily the betrayed spouse, in order to make the right decisions for their safety and for the future of their relationship.

Well, yeah, I think we should point out, as we have on, I think every podcast where we've talked about disclosure that we have seen so many couples. I mean, Pure Desire has worked with thousands of couples now. And the disclosure process is just a standard part of that recovery. And what we have found over and over so consistently, it is not what the addict or struggler has done that ends the relationship. If, if and when relationships don't make it. I mean, that's a tiny percentage of them. What will more often than not cause the deterioration or the end of the relationship is the ongoing deceit and honesty and lack of truth in the relationship. And so when the struggler or the addict sees that, like, that honesty will actually help me, no matter what I have to be honest about. And ending the deceit and the lies, their marriage, their relationship has a great shot at making it. But when they continue to operate in that shadow zone of, nope, I'm not going to be real, I'm not going to be truthful, I'm going to withhold information. That's where a spouse, like you were saying to Tyler, just feels like, I don't have all the information. I don't even know what to do to move forward. I can't keep doing this. And so just take that maybe from the voice of experience and wisdom that says, yeah, honesty sounds like a painful thing to do and that it could ruin your relationship, but it's actually the lack of honesty that has the greatest potential threat to harm your relationship long term.

Yeah, very true.

Yeah. I think one other just quick thing is that when an addict is able to get everything out, there's also a diminishing of shame that happens there. Like, now it's all out, I no longer have to keep any secrets. There is something that can be unlocked in that moment or in that pocket for an addict, for sure.

Can I share? One thing that's really important about this process is once that information is shared with the betrayed spouse, suddenly the guy who struggles, who has just shared his entire story, he feels like he's unburdened himself to some degree.

Yeah.

Whereas the betrayed spouse feels like, okay, what he is carrying.

Yeah, that's right.

Dump truck.

The dump truck is backed up and.

Unloaded it all, and there she is. She has to sort through it. Which speaks to the value and importance of support.

Yes.

Of having those folks around you who can help walk through that process.

Yeah. And to your point earlier, that's why having a clinician or a csat someone to walk alongside you is so important that not just having a group, but also someone who can guide you through that process to make sure both spouses are supported. For sure.

Yeah. Well, and it's why we don't recommend the kind of traditional church approach of go home and tell your spouse everything tonight.

That's right.

Because not only are you probably not ready to be fully honest with yourself and your spouse, but your spouse is not ready to hear it in a way that they can then be supported and be able to handle what has just come out. So what we try to say is, yes, you do need to tell your spouse everything. But the way, the timing, the approach is really, really important, both for your ability to be fully honest and their ability, as Tyler was saying, to handle that information and know what to do about it.

Totally. So let's get into the polygraph then, because, you know, for me, I have not ever taken one before, so this is a good question from me anyway. But like, we see polygraphs in movies or hear about it in stories, and so there's kind of this, like, vague understanding. But what Tyler is a polygraph, and how does it work?

A polygraph, from pure desire's perspective, is a third party validating the level of truthfulness. That's what we just want to validate that he's being truthful. Again, I'll say he with his story. And what that typically looks like is after the man, the person who struggles, writes out his entire sexual history with the clinician's help, there's often multiple drafts of that document. And then the betrayed spouse will have an opportunity to integrate three questions into that polygraph exam. And so pure desire often communicates with the polygrapher to give them a sense for what we're looking for. This is not about a gotcha moment. This is about marital fidelity and identifying level of truthfulness. So once that polygraph exam is scheduled, the person who struggles goes to the exam appointment with a copy of his full disclosure statement and with the three questions from the betrayed spouse. And so the polygrapher often reads through that history, and he'll integrate some questions within the polygraph exam. And usually that exam takes about an hour and a half. And there's the same questions in different ways that are presented. And there's no bright light yeah, there's no right.

Robert De Niro is not in the room.

Yeah. It's not pitch black with a white light shining in your eyes. Okay, Good to know.

Yeah, yeah. So at a high level, that's what an exam looks like. Typically, it takes about a day for the polygrapher to write up his report. And at Pure Desire, we ask that he share with the examinee what the results are. Was there deception indicated or was truthfulness brought forward? And so we'll ask that the polygrapher share that with the individual before he leaves the office, and then he's got that information. But as far as the details, his answers to the questions, that's contained in the report. So again, we ask that the report is sent to Pure Desire, and then typically, the clinicians will meet with that couple very soon after the polygraph, and we'll walk through that report, and at that time, the struggler will read his full disclosure statement. The polygraph essentially helps verify that document is true.

Yeah, yeah.

I have been through the polygraph process and would just affirm that. That's a lot of what I experienced that as I went into it. My counselors encouraging this is to create some backup for you, because when you say to Michelle, your wife, when you say to her, I've told you everything, you will actually even have a polygraph to say, and he's telling the truth. And I think a lot of strugglers or addicts have maybe been in that place where they, in an effort to defend themselves or try to create stability in the relationship, have said, I've told you everything, I promise. And then there maybe have been other, like, oh, yeah, or I forgot about, or, well, I didn't really mean it that way, or I said it wrong. And. And that creates for the betrayed spouse that sense of what can be trusted. And so in this healing journey where we're really trying to say we want to get everything out, we want to deal with all of it, so that this is like an end all journey, that you really will be in a different place. That confirmation of when you tell your spouse, I've told you everything. There's a counselor and a polygraph going, yeah, this is everything. And so my experience as well was going to this third party polygrapher that I'd never met sitting in his office. That was just very normal, well lit. And he asked me an hour and a half of very uncomfortable questions, both just from a general sexual acting out perspective, but also from my own story. And none of it for that was I hooked up to a machine There was no little needles bouncing around. It was just a conversation. So he had all the information collected into the file. And then at the end of that, I was hooked up to a machine with little sensors on my fingertips. And I was asked about 10 questions. Ten very straightforward, yes, no questions related to my story and the things that I had shared. And questions like, have you been fully honest about everything you've told me today? Is there anything that you've lied about in the conversation we had today? Is there anything that you've withheld? And so just those kind of questions, all based on the conversation we've had. And I was able, you know, the polygraph itself was simple because I was like, well, yes, I've told you everything. Well, no, there's nothing else. And, yeah. And. And so then having passed that polygraph. But I would say to people, my experience, it was a horrendous experience in the sense of everything I had ever done was kind of all in front of me and this stranger. And it was kind of looking at the pile of garbage in my life going, man, that is. It's rough. But at the same time, it was a new level of self awareness. Say, oh, this is the level of what I've done. Because I think I'd been so stuck in rationalizing, minimizing, and denying my behavior. Like, oh, it's not that bad. It's not that big of a deal. All guys do this. I'm working on it. It's getting better. When I had to see it all at once like that, there was a new gravity, a new weight. Like, wow, I can see why my wife is on the brink of leaving. I can see what a big deal this is. And then the coolest moment. I don't know if this is the right place to share it. But as I walked away from it and feeling that weight of holy cow, I have really, really hurt my wife. And I have really gotten myself into a real pit here. There was a moment there where I felt like the Holy Spirit said to me, and that's what I've forgiven you of. That's my grace for you. And it gave me a new appreciation of God's forgiveness. Because I think in my rationalizing and denying, oh, it's not that big of a deal. It's not that bad. I didn't need that much grace, right? It's like, oh, it's not that big a deal. Yeah, God forgave me. But I saw it all at once and then heard God say, and I have forgiven you. There's Just like this new appreciation for grace that I hadn't had before. So I think that's my encouragement to anyone out there that maybe is in this process saying, is it worth it? It's going to be rough, it's going to be hard. But it also can be one of the most healing moments in your entire recovery journey.

Yeah. It feels like you experienced two realities. The reality of your situation, and then the reality of God's grace for you.

That's.

Yeah, super cool.

So, Tyler, I shared a little bit of that from my personal experience. But as you walk with couples through this journey, what are the benefits of using a polygraph in the full disclosure process that you share with couples? How do you try to help them see the benefits of doing this process that might be very foreign or unusual for them to consider?

It is so important to verify truth. And when an individual knows that his level of truthfulness will be verified, it can be sobering knowing that he'll share his entire story. And that's a wake up call for a lot of guys. It's like, okay, I have one opportunity to do this and to do it well. Otherwise I don't want to revisit. And that's what I tell a lot of guys. We do not want to go down this road again. Will there be a polygraph in the future? Perhaps. But right now, we have to get this right.

Yeah.

Because if we don't get the polygraph exam right, your story's not right.

Yeah.

You know, the level of truthfulness is not there. And we absolutely have to have that in order for your spouse to begin to relax and to understand she's got the whole story, and then she can make an informed decision on how she wants to move forward.

Yeah, absolutely. I've talked to people and described it a little bit like getting a cancer diagnosis, that if you go to your doctor and he's like, we found some cancer. You know, let's say in your lungs, you would never say to the doctor, well, could we just get like 65% of it out? Or maybe 80? I'm good with 80%. Let's leave 20% in. No, we have this mindset of, like, this could kill me, it could destroy my life. And even a little bit of it left could grow back into a problem. So whatever you need to do, doctor, radiation, chemo pills, like, I'm in until it is all gone. And I think that's the approach we want to have to healing. And why we talk about full disclosure and polygraph, it's like, if you're in this season where you're addressing sexual brokenness and the issues that it's caused in your marriage. You don't want to get 65% out. You don't want to get 80% out, because that little bit that's left, it'll grow and it'll come back. And so it's like, let's get every single bit of it. And I feel like that was the polygraph experience of, like, all right, we're all in on this. Like, we're going to do this believing that if we did, it would actually lead to a new place, it would lead to a better relationship that, you know, in 10 years of trying, prior to this, we had. I just continued to stumble my way through, and it's why we were at the point we were at. So I think that mindset, like you say, if we've got to get all of it out there, the way that then we can grow from it is really significant.

Yeah. Well, it's funny, too, because if you go, I just feel like this creates that foundation. I've heard you refer it to, you know, to it this way, Nick, where for you and Michelle, it was like you finally knew where the bottom was of everything. And what's interesting is if, like, you don't go all the way to the bottom and you start rebuilding your relationship, like, you still have that really rotted foundation underneath of that piece. And this is maybe not the right. The visual, but, like, if you still have that 20% that wasn't disclosed, that will rot and over time become really damaging to this new relationship you're building on top of what you thought the foundation was. And so you really need to go all the way to the bottom, because then you have that stable place to start rebuilding your relationship. And that's only where trust can happen, is if it's built on. We know exactly what has happened. We have all the information.

We absolutely do not want the betrayed spouse questioning. What about this? What about that?

Yeah.

And I think one of the themes that is coming to the surface here is the staggered disclosure, only. Only giving 80%.

Yeah.

Not addressing the 100%.

Yep.

And that is incredibly damaging, as a lot of folks know.

Well, and we've talked about that, too, just to give perspective and correct me if I'm wrong, Tyler, but if there is a staggered disclosure, if you look at the trauma profile of that betrayed spouse, it's the same as a rape victim if you look at the impact that it's had. And so that's something that we also need to take into consideration we're causing more damage over time if we don't give it all in that full disclosure.

Absolutely true, for sure.

Today's episode is sponsored by Bethesda Workshops, one of our 2022 Pure Desire Summit sponsors. Bethesda Workshops provides a place for healing for people affected by sexual addiction. They're located in Nashville, Tennessee. Christian based and clinical short term workshops provide an intensive jump start or boost to the healing process. They offer a combination of effective clinical strategies and grace based spirituality that gives enormous progress in only four days. Separate workshops are available for male and female sex addicts, partners of sex addicts, couples and teens struggling with the problematic sexual behavior who are accompanied by their parents. The workshop fee includes all lodging and meals as well as transportation to and from the airport and the conference hotel. Payment plans and limited scholarships are available. Founded and directed by Marnie Faree. All clinical staff are at least master's level and are all certified sexual addiction therapists, which is the highest designation in the field. For more information, visit Bethesda Workshops. That's B E T H E s d a workshops.org okay, so this can kind of be a no brainer. The struggling spouse could and often might react negatively to the idea of a polygraph. Right? Like it's a gotcha moment or you're just trying to punish me or hurt.

Or we've seen too many movies, right? But like, what's this going to be like?

Yeah, you can take this question either way, I guess. Like maybe from the struggling spouse's perspective though, like how do we navigate that scenario, that feeling? So let's say we're the struggling spouse, we're in the situation. A polygraph is thrown out as an option and for me, I react this way negatively to it. How do I personally navigate that and get to a point where I see the benefit of the polygraph?

It's our hope that those folks working with a PD clinician will have trust in that clinician and trust in the process. They may not understand why or how and it just makes sense as natural seeing it in the movies. I don't want to go there. I don't want to be under the bright light, the electricity, all that. Yeah, no, but if the individual is trusting in the process, and this is part of the process, the most difficult part for a lot of couples, the full disclosure component, they trust the process and know it can get that individual and his betrayed spouse to the other side where that foundation of trust can be established. It's gotta be done.

Yeah.

But it has to be done.

Yeah. I feel like it is one of those things where, like, are you willing to do what it takes to accomplish the goals that you have? You know, like, you know, you can apply it to any other situation, but if you know that you have to have surgery in order to live a healthy life moving forward, like, the longer you put it off, the worse it's gonna get. And is that surgery gonna hurt? Absolutely. You know, enter in any four, you know, four letter expletive you want. Like, yes, it's going to. Like, that's not gonna be fun. The recovery process is not gonna be fun. But it's absolutely necessary to have the life and really the well being that you're after. And the same thing's true here, that if you want to have a healthy marriage and a healthy family, and not only healthy, but thriving and moving forward and getting better, then this is a painful potential thing that you have to go through in order to get there.

Yeah. What I might say to that person who's really struggling with the idea of a polygraph, is that the goal of recovery, or maybe the foundation of recovery is reestablishing trust in the relationship. And that's what a polygraph can help do, is create a trust level of, I know everything. We've got it all out in the open, and now we're rebuilding something new and different. And. And if that's the goal is to rebuild trust, then I think you can be open to saying, if a polygraph helps me do that, like you said, Trevor, I'm willing to go all in. I'm willing to make it work. And on the flip side, if the reason we're really struggling is because we've got something to hide and we don't want it to come out well, then we're in a really difficult place anyway. It's like that hidden thing is going to destroy your marriage anyway. Or you can get it out there and brace yourself for the impact that might come. But like I said earlier, we have watched so many couples navigate horrendous things. You're like, man, how could any marriage survive that? But it's amazing when truth is out there and there is a sincere desire for that struggling spouse to make amends and to grow and change. Couples survive, and it's amazing. So I know if you're hiding that thing like, well, this is a deal breaker, just know that couples have had a lot of deal breakers that are now saying, we have a better marriage than we've ever had, and I can't promise you that because there's no guarantees in life. But just to say, from the experience of so many couples, the things they thought would be deal breakers actually become the foundation of the new marriage. And it's amazing to watch the word. That's the next question. Tyler, we want to hear from you on is there are some really heavy or difficult truths that might come out through the full disclosure process and in particular related to the polygraph. So how would you answer this question? Can a polygraph do irreparable damage or can couples survive the full truth being told?

I would qualify irreparable damage. If an individual is unsupported and does it poorly. Yes, it has that potential.

Sure.

Can a couple survive the full truth being told? Oftentimes they do. Oftentimes they do. The percentage of marriages that have ended through this process that I've been aware of is minuscule. As hard as this is, as difficult as the truth is to hear.

The.

Couple endures, and they do so in a. In a healthy way. There's a paradigm shift in the relationship that often occurs.

Yeah.

So, yes, they can absolutely survive full disclosure. I've heard some gnarly, gnarly stories.

Yeah.

And the spouse has just stayed in there, and it's so difficult for. For her, the betrayed spouse. Extremely difficult, but well supported, encouraged, guided through this process.

Yeah.

Most marriages survive this.

I don't want to assume that this is maybe true for everybody, but I would guess, I would take an educated guess that most of the couples who go through the polygraph and the full disclosure process are doing it in order to save the relationship they have. There is a positive outcome we are pursuing, and that's why we're doing this hard thing. And so that needs to be taken into account as well. Whether you're on the addict or the betrayed side, like, there is a motivation to get all the information out there so that we can move forward. It's not just so we can get all this garbage out and finally know what's true. It's actually so that we can get through all of that information and all of that, quote, garbage, whatever you want to call it, to get to that relationship we both want to have. And honestly, if people didn't believe they could have that relationship, I highly doubt they would go through the full disclosure process.

Truly a good point. Let me also say when there is a legal proceeding underway, pure desire just won't enter those waters, because we don't. It's just not fair to that couple to equip one. Perhaps against the other in perhaps a divorce. So we navigate that carefully.

Yeah, yeah. We're talking about a polygraph, full disclosure in the midst of a couple that's really committed to making the relationship work. We also want to point out we don't want the polygraph to become the scapegoat for our blame. Like, well, the polygraph ended my marriage. Like, no, what you did ended the marriage. The polygraph just exposed it or brought it into the light. And so I think we can look at things like that and say, well, it's that. That person's fault or that counselor's fault. Like, well, no, that's part of recovery is taking responsibility. Say, I have. I've already done the things I've done.

Right.

The polygraph is just a method to help bring that into the light and deal with it. And if it leads to damage, it's not the polygraph's fault. No, it's what we've done. And so that's part of, I think, the internal reconciling we have to do in going into the polygraphs. Like, well, the reason. And this is something I tell myself, like, I caused this.

Right.

The reason I need this polygraph is because of choices I've made over the last couple of decades. And now this is me taking responsibility for those things. But it wasn't pure desire's fault that I had to do it. It wasn't the, you know, the polygrapher or the test. It was. It was what I'd done. It wasn't my wife's fault. This is things I needed to own. And I think that was helpful for me, even as I looked at, like, well, could this end our relationships? Like, you know, if. If it did, that may be part of the responsibility I need to take for the things I've done. Because if I'm going to be an honest man, a man of integrity, I have to face these things. And it's no one else's fault. It's. And we don't mean that in a shaming or blaming way, but just to own responsibility, because that's how healing comes. And that's also what, again, gives the marriage the best chance to make it is spouses taking responsibility for their action and responsibility for their change.

Yep, totally. So is this a one and done type of thing, Tyler?

Or.

I mean, how many times should a couple or do couples tend to go through a polygraph? Is it one and done, or can it happen multiple times? What do you see? More often than not, we like to.

Give the choice to the Betrayed spouse. And we also like to see at least six months after that initial polygraph, he's passed the polygraph, his behavior is beginning to change. And we'll check the temperature in six months. And if she is still in that trauma space, like, yeah, back to the polygrapher, you know, or some. Some things are tingling within her. And oftentimes wives feel that back to the polygrapher. Do we have an established number of times? No, but typically, you know, it may be one in six months and another one in six months. Maybe another one in six months. Yeah. Until the betrayed spouse feels a level of comfort that he is being truthful with her. Sometimes it's one and done and then they build from there. Other times it requires more polygraph.

Yeah, I appreciate the perspective there, Tyler, that it's really being led in that regard by the comfort level, the trust level of the betrayed spouse. And I think it's a way that if we are the offending spouse, the struggling spouse, the addicted spouse, that we're able to put our money where our mouth is. You said it earlier, Trevor, I will do whatever it takes. And many of us said that to our spouse in recovery. And then they maybe come back, back and say, this is what it's going to take. Because I'm still really struggling with trust. I need for the next year, every six month polygraph to know that what you say is happening is happening because there's been such a history of lies. And it's a way then that that spouse can step forward and say, okay, if this is what it takes for me to help you build trust, I said it, I will do whatever it takes. And in our situation, my wife needed the one and the groups we were in, the work we were doing was enough for her to re establish trust. But we've talked to a number of couples that maybe did two or three over a one or two year period and that's what created the trust. So allowing that betrayed spouse to guide the need for it, I think there's a lot of wisdom in that. On the flip side, Tyler, would you say is a polygraph always encouraged or in what scenarios have you seen that a polygraph might not be recommended or necessary?

Again, oftentimes the betrayed spouse will help drive that decision. If the trauma impact has not necessarily been severe. He has been following through on his recovery process and he feels confident and comfortable. A polygraph is not always required when working with a clinical team. Please also take into consideration the clinician's perspective.

Yeah.

Because the wife may, the betrayed spouse may Say, you know, we're fine. I believe him.

Yeah.

And if something is going off within the clinician, please listen to that. And the clinician will say, I think this will serve you well in the long run if he goes through this process.

Yeah, I mean, this is my story. Like, you know, and I've said this a couple of times on the podcast where I got to the point of full disclosure in group and asked my wife, do you want a full disclosure? And she said, no, I don't feel like I need it. I see who you are. I see how group is helping, and I know the man that you are, and I trust you. And, you know, at the time was just like, okay, you know, like, whew, okay, don't have to, you know, do that. But, you know, over time, I started to feel like a nudge, like, I need to check in again and just make sure that she's still there. And so I think it was a year or two later I asked again, like, hey, I'm just checking in. Do you feel like this is something that you want? And she said, no, I still feel the same way I did when you asked the first time. So for me, we didn't need a polygraph. Now my story's a little different. I started to get healthy before we got married, and we didn't experience that huge betrayal. But there are situations like that where a spouse has already seen that traction and is comfortable. Trust is built and. Or rebuilt in that sense. And, you know, I don't know, Tyler, I guess this is kind of an off the cuff question, but could you ever see an addicted spouse, a struggling spouse say, like, I would like to do this. Have you ever had that experience where the betrayed spouse is like, no, I think I'm fine. But the struggling spouse is like, I don't know. That might be a silly question, but I just wonder, has there ever been a situation where that happens?

I think what you're talking about, Trevor, is just the struggling spouse is wanting all the proof, all the evidence on the table that he is flying straight and true. Have I seen it? I haven't seen it.

Yeah. Okay, moving on.

I think the scenario you're describing, we want to make sure that a betrayed spouse saying, I don't need a polygraph, we don't need to go there, is a byproduct of health in a relationship, not a byproduct of avoidance. And that's back to what Tyler, you said. If a counselor, a certified sex addiction therapist is saying, I think this would be really Helpful for your relationship. And here's why. To listen to them. Because there are times where a spouse's way of dealing with trauma is avoidance or blocking. And part of their recovery may be, you need to face this or you'll be stuck in the same place. And that's again, where timing is really important. We don't want to rush someone into the process. We don't want to force them. And so if a betrayed spouse is needing a little more time to be prepared or to feel ready, that's great. We need to let them guide that process with the assistance of counselors, clinicians that can help guide the process.

Yeah, for sure. So while the polygraph, like we've already established, might not necessarily be a part of the process, that it's a huge need, what other steps can the recovering spouse take to re establish trust? Because I think this question identifies that you can get a polygraph, and that doesn't automatically equal trust that everything I did washed my hands forever. Yep. That is not the case. So what are some additional things? Maybe in addition, or if there isn't a polygraph, things that spouses can proactively do to rebuild that trust with their betrayed spouse.

It is so important that one's actions support trustworthiness. And the words are fine, but the betrayed spouse will know when the actions are changing. The words are one thing. She's heard words all along. It's got to be actions that drive that establishment of trust. Also adhering to the safety plan that will continue to be a part of the health of the relationship moving forward, at least in the short or midterm safety plan. And just is so important not to backslide, not to believe that. Okay, I've got beyond the full disclosure process. We're good. Let's tap out here.

Yeah.

We all know that this is a two to five year process. And the polygraph exam, the full disclosure is just one snapshot in time of that two to five year process.

Yeah. The word durability, I think, is one we've used often in that sense that over time, someone is continuing to model health, is continuing to make that progression. And I mean, I can say even just even outside of the recovery journey, for me, when I have had those conversations with my wife where she says, I've seen this growth. I've seen you change, I've seen this progression. Those moments are so empowering to me personally, and I feel so much more invested in that relationship. Like, you know, she does see that I'm growing. She does see that I'm Working. And that can go a really long way, even with your own confidence. As you're rebuilding that trust, those little moments, those little tiny conversations that might not seem huge in the moment, but over time, it's like, no, that's a signpost I can point back to and say, that was a huge moment in my growth.

Yeah. What you're talking about is kind of the progression of health for the betrayed spouse. That first they have to see sincerity. They have to see that their spouse wants to change. Then they need to see ability, that their spouse actually has the tools or some capability of changing, and then the durability. They need to see that it's going to last, that this wasn't just, well, you know, for one point in time, he did better. But now we're right back where we started, that durability being super important. And I, you know, I know for us, the change that had to happen beyond the polygraph was I was being honest with my wife after I would struggle, you know, in our pattern of disclosure or me coming to her and doing the staggered disclosure, like, hey, I'm sorry, I messed up again, and it's never going to happen again. I promise. And of course, those became very empty to my wife.

Yeah.

But she was only hearing me be vulnerable after the fact. And so for us, the transformation had a lot to do with learning to have conversations before there would become another relapse. And so for us, using the faster scale was a huge part of that. And I don't advocate that means we're sharing every little lust or temptation with our spouse. There's a level there that is. That's what's meant for your group and for your counselor. What your spouse needs to know is more about behaviors and actions and decisions. But through the faster scale, I could share about my boundaries because we had established those together. That I wouldn't use my cell phone in a private room. I wouldn't be using the Internet for entertainment while at work. Some things like that, that weekly, as part of going through my faster scale, I could also pull out my guardrails and say, here's how I'm doing on this one. Here's how I followed this one. And if there was an area I strayed, while that might be a little bit of an uncomfortable conversation, I. I tell you, it was way easier than the hey, I've relapsed again conversation for sure, that I'd been having for 10 years. So if I said, hey, I. I was in our bedroom, and I picked up my phone and looked up this fact, and I forgot that I've committed to not using the phone in the bedroom. And so when I remembered, I took it out of the room. I. I didn't linger. To be able to be honest about that was part of rebuilding trust for my wife that even if I had to confess to.

Right.

Breaking a boundary. That's why the boundaries existed, because they were there long before I was getting into a relapse. And so she could say, oh, I'm glad you took that step, and she could ask any questions. That was. I think what really helped us rebuild that trust is learning to have conversations along the way and not just saying, well, if I relapse, I'll talk to you again. But until then, just trust that I'm doing better. Because she needed to see more of what was happening in this journey and not just kind of brace herself for, are there going to be more relapse? Yeah.

That's good.

It's interesting, Nick. The rebuilding of trust is also the rebuilding of neural pathways within the individual who has struggled. Like, this is a new way to navigate life and to do it more healthily.

Yeah, guys, I feel like this conversation has been super good. I think, you know, my. I was talking, you know, offline with Tyler before we even started. My hope was that this would encourage couples to understand that the polygraph is not this hurdle to be, you know, jumped over. It's just a step in the process of rebuilding trust and moving toward that relationship. You know you want and you know you can have. And so I hope that this conversation has helped maybe clarify and maybe bring a lot more just clarity to what polygraphs are, what role they play, and also to reinforce the full disclosure process is so absolutely necessary. When betrayal has happened, when crisis is going on in your marriage, it is such an important, important part. And know that this is something you need to do with trusted people around you. A csat, Pure Desire clinician. Making sure you're in groups, you have those support systems. But yeah, Ty, we appreciate your time. We appreciate the expertise that you have, the role you play here. And thanks for coming back on. It's been a while. We're glad to have you.

It's always a privilege. Thank you guys very much.

Yep. And wherever you're at on your journey, Pure Desire is here to help create a roadmap for your healing. If you or someone you know is impacted by sexual brokenness or betrayal trauma, go to PureDesire.org and start the healing journey today. Don't forget to subscribe to the podcast Each week, we put out new content to help you on the road to healing and freedom. And lastly, never stop being healthy.