273 - Running Effective Groups: Seven Pillars Of Freedom

Welcome to the Pure Desire Podcast, helping you take back your life from unwanted sexual behavior and betrayal trauma. Happy day to you, listener. I am your host, Trevor Windsor, and you're listening to episode 273 of the Pure Desire podcast. Here joining me as always, is my co host, Nick Stumbo.

Why was six afraid of seven? Because seven, eight, nine.

I feel like. I mean, dad joke, right? Yeah.

Little dad joke moment.

100 dad joke. But it was probably. I feel like that is such an old saying that it's probably pre, like, dad joke. Like, no one would have called it that back.

We didn't really have a category. I think the Internet created dad jokes because they just proliferated around the world at that point.

That's a good one.

Became a genre at that point.

Yeah. And honestly, I'm here for that genre. Let's be real. Okay. So today we are in week two of our Running Effective Groups series, and today we're looking at running effective seven Pillars of Freedom groups. And we had our operations director, Mike Maxwell on to talk about it.

Yeah.

And sometimes the reality for people when we're talking about seven Pillars of Freedom groups is people are a little afraid of seven Pillars groups because it's like, what are they going to make me do? Is it going to be, you know, like, there's some extreme stories out there, like, confess everything right now and go home and tell her everything right now, and we're gonna cast out this demon in you.

Like, oh, my gosh.

And some of those things in the right time and place may be appropriate. But there's just. I think there's scary stories out there when it comes to our sexuality and recovery. And it's like when we're trying to start or lead seven Pillars of Freedom groups, often we are up against some very unrealistic experiences that people have had that cause them to be hesitant. And so I think in this episode, we just walk through, how can we normalize it? How can we start these groups effectively? How do we help people see the heart behind them? And all of these are great ideas and tips to help people enter into groups with confidence and a real sense of safety around joining a group.

Absolutely. And before we get to the episode, one of the best ways to really initiate effective groups being run is our group leader training video course. Nick, what's in this course? What can people expect and why did we create it?

A better question might be, what's not in this course? Because it is the beginning to end. Soup to nuts. Everything you need to know to launch groups lead Groups. End groups. Well, promote groups. Like, we just tried to take a lot of our best training and tips that we've been working with churches on for decades and put it into a comprehensive tool that is still a doable timeframe because it's eight different modules that are about a total of five to six hours. So it's something you could watch at home on your own. You could go through a group of leaders together, but the idea just being that it will equip you with everything you need to know that before the proliferation of the Internet, we didn't have this capability. But now you can be trained as a group leader even from the privacy of your own home and feel equipped to lead these groups well. And so we just recommend for everyone, if you're leading a group, go through the group leader training, even if you've been leading groups for 10 years. I've heard even this week from group leaders who led for a long time and said, I thought I knew how to do groups, but I watched the training and I learned so much that I wasn't doing very well and we weren't trying to highlight their mistakes, but just that heart where they say, I still had a lot to learn and I'm thankful for this training. That's why we recommend it. So the group leader training is a valuable tool for group leaders.

So to go through this course, go to PureDesire.org GLT subscribe to the podcast. Look, I say it every single time. I know it probably just won't, right? Like, I get it, but do it, please, and write us a review. It helps other people find the show. Follow us on social mediauredesirepdmi and this episode will be up on YouTube. The full episode just search Pure Desire Ministries. And with that, here's our conversation with our operations director, Mike Maxwell about running effective seven Pillars of Freedom groups. Mike Maxwell, welcome back to the podcast, man. Thanks for being here.

Yeah, super excited, bud.

Yeah. So Pure Desire offers groups and group resources for men who struggle with sexual brokenness or unwanted sexual behavior. And the material and groups are called seven Pillars of Freedom. And Mike, with your experience as a group leader and really you were the main contact at your previous church for Pure Desire groups for a long time. Wanted to bring in your experience to this conversation. This is week two of our Running Effective Groups series. And so we're just looking at specifically seven Pillars of Freedom today. So let's just start with this. So many people who struggle with sexual brokenness carry shame. I mean, we know that all three of us have had that as a part of our story. And this keeps them silent and isolated. So what are ways that we can diminish shame or the stigma in our churches? And how do we create a culture, particularly for men, where it's okay to ask for help in this area?

Yeah, that's a big question and something we deal with all the time. I would say initially, on an individual level, just being able to share your story, being a person who's willing to engage with someone else appropriately. Of course, when the time is right, share your story. And oftentimes you'll know it resonates. They'll open up to you or they'll run away, typically. But for me, I kind of became known as the porn guy at my church.

Put that on a resume.

Yeah. So guys knew that they could come talk to me if they wanted to. I did notice that some kind of never came too close that kind of circled me all the time. And then later you find out they're going through divorce, porn's an issue, adultery, those kinds of things. So I would say individually, just being a safe place for them to tell the story and that means you tell yours corporately, is a little more difficult because it extends beyond my ability to make those things happen. So I think initially, if you can get the pastor, or preferably the lead pastor on your side and he's willing to talk about those things from the pulpit, he's not shy and is open, then educating the staff and the volunteers in some way that might be SI101 or something along those lines, at least getting the conversation going and then creating a group or groups education, honest discussions that might be in the men's ministry cr, just places where guys can actually start to talk about those things. And then I would say the other thing that is so important is when a man does become transparent or vulnerable, applauding him for doing that and rewarding him and letting him know that you're proud of him. I think from my journey, that's been a big piece, and I try to do that with other guys because this is a scary thing to divulge. And so when a guy does it, I want him to know that I'm safe and that I'm proud of him for being so courageous.

Yeah, I really love what you said first there about sharing your story, because I think whether we're just attending a church, we're new at a church, we've been there a long time, or we're on staff, we're going to have opportunities, whether in a public setting. Or not to be able to open up about our life and talk about what God is doing. And for so many listeners to the podcast, I think they're starting to see they have a story. And whether that's in a car ride where you're going with another guy to some kind of event, or it's an appropriate small group setting, or you're at a men's retreat, or they're just opportunities where, you know, here's a discussion where I could open up and say, you know, I've had a long time struggle with pornography and here's something God is doing in my life. Here's an experience I've been through that just kind of normalizes healing for other men. They go, oh, and so even if your church isn't doing something, I think that's a way to just begin bringing in that topic to celebrate what God is doing in your life. And we've, we brought that up that if your healing is at a place that you're not yet telling anyone else other than maybe the men that were in your online group or just you and your spouse know, there are seasons where that's totally okay and even preferred. But as we get towards more healing and more traction, I think that's really a sign of health that we realize, I'm comfortable owning a part of my story that I maybe haven't told others before. And when we start owning that part of our story and celebrating what God is doing, I think it really gives other people a picture of, oh, that could happen for me too. And so no matter what our role is in a church or if we think we can start groups or not, we can tell our story and that can begin to make a difference in the lives of others who hear and go, oh, maybe that could happen for me too.

Yeah.

And it's such a natural thing because if God is in something miraculous in your life, you're naturally going to want to share that.

Yeah, for sure.

It's just an outcome of healing.

Yeah. I think my perspective is more on the corporate stuff. I think using inclusive language is always super helpful. Us and we, rather than, like they or them. I think that that's always super, super helpful. I also think that sharing statistics can be a really, like, kind of, here are the cold hard facts about this problem, making it really clear that this is something that gets struggled with, you know, across the board. It's not just that one person. I think it's Dr. Ted, who's said it a number of times. But this is the one area where Satan convinces you you're the only person in the world who struggles with it while simultaneously impacting thousands and thousands and probably millions of people with it. So I think sharing stats is another thing. But then also corporately, if you can get a man and a woman or a woman and a man or just even an individual on stage sharing their story of healing and recovery, I think that that's really helpful too because then that is like, oh, there's someone else out there who's a real person, not just on a video, someone who's standing on stage who's been through this, who. Their marriage has been healed. I think that that can go a long way too.

You know, John and I were talking about this yesterday and I said, beguman. Beguman, yeah, John Beguman. John Beguman. He's great. You guys will love him. But I was talking about how I felt when I went to my first church. They were very accepting. Open groups got started right away, took off. We had the ministry behind us. When I went to my second church after I married Heidi, I was kind of a new commodity to the church. Here I am a guy who's a self admitted porn addict. I've been divorced and I felt kind of like a missionary going into, you know. And John actually brought up the point. He said, you're kind of like a prophetic ministry in the sense that the prophet calls the unseen to be seen. And I remember feeling that way is like your church is filled with guys like me. I know this, but you don't acknowledge it. And so how do you go do that and call the church, the pastor, the ministry staff, to see what's actually happening and to address it or allow us to help them address it.

I like that you're using prophets as an illustration because it feels like if you look at the Bible like prophets lives were not awesome. Their ministry was not awesome. Could you even say that they were successful most of the time?

No.

But I feel like that puts language to the experience for so many of us who want to get these groups going in church for sure.

So if a church is launching a seven pillars of freedom group for the first time, how could they do that in a way that just creates safety that makes it a doable step for guys to sign up, especially if they've never really had this before in their church.

Yeah, this is where I think there's two steps approach. But corporately I think having the lead pastor involved and you guys know Alan Hlovka, who was the lead pastor at Good shepherd for a while. He Was so good about saying, hey, we're going to be running this program, this video series. We want to invite every man to go, Every man should go. And I'm going to be the first one to sign up.

Yeah, I remember that story.

He came out and he signed up, and everybody, I mean, every wife in the place elbowed their husband, saying, alan's going, you got to go. And so we had a really great kickoff at that point. There were some hurdles getting to that point, but that was really huge. And then I think, you know, there's the leader demeanor when you get in those groups that can help facilitate that safety as well. But initially, for the church as a whole, it really helps if the pastor is just not afraid to address it.

Totally. I feel like in that too, emphasizing confidentiality is really, really important. I think a lot of people assume people will know that I've gone to this group or people will know I've signed up. And so emphasizing confidentiality in the signup process, but then also in the attendance of that group. And then I think from a leader's perspective, if you want to run an effective group, especially starting, you going first and sharing, vulnerably sharing your story and even going through and we'll get into what the resource covers. But you're in pillar one, lesson one. You're the one who's answering the questions first, and you're leading the way saying, look, this is okay to admit these things, it's okay to say these things. It's okay to really reveal my struggle to other people, to know that I've, you know, I'm in process and I'm in recovery. I think that those two things can be really, really helpful in both settings. Emphasizing confidentiality and sharing your story from stage can be powerful, but those are also extremely essential for those group meetings as well.

Yeah, to your point, we've used the phrase that who is in your groups should be absolutely confidential, but the fact that you have groups should not be confidential. Unfortunately, too many communities and churches kind of do both confidential. Like you have to be a private investigator to find where the groups are and how I sign up, which only kind of can further the stigma or the shame of joining one versus when churches do it. Well, what we see is those groups are celebrated. They're put on their groups finder, they're put on the website. There's very clear pathway how I get in touch with someone. The groups themselves are really normalized. But then the entry point is just very, very confidential. And to speak, very, very practical. You need to have a way that a guy can express interest in the group when he's alone, away from the presence of friends or family or a spouse. Because if a church does, you know the typical. If you're interested in this group, fill out the connection card and drop your hand or leave it at the back.

Scan this QR code.

What we have found is that for probably half of the men that enter group, their spouse isn't aware to the level to which they need group. That is just a common situation in a relationship, that he's not being totally transparent at home. Sometimes he just doesn't know how to be. Or he thinks it's even better that the wife doesn't know. And so if he's sitting there going, I'd like to join seven pillars of freedom. And the wife is sitting next to him going, why is he saying he needs to join seven pillars of freedom? So having a way that confidentially, a guy could text a phone number, could send an email when they're at work the next day, that's going to be much, much better. And then in addition to that, also make sure it's clear who will know that they're expressing interest to say, if Mike was our group leader, I'd say, here's Mike's telephone number. You can text or call him anytime and get information about where the group meets and when. And he is the only one that will know you're reaching out to him. That's not being shared with the staff, that there's not a list that we'll keep in the office. He is the only one that will know because we want to keep your participation confidential. And that just. That may seem like overkill to some, but it gives a person the ability to take that first step. Because, as I say all the time, the first step is the biggest. That first step is the biggest. So do whatever you can to try to make it a little bit smaller for someone to confidentially raise their hand and say, I need this group.

You know, it's interesting you bring that up, because when we. When we finally got buying it, Good shepherd, we initially ran a video series. About 200 guys signed up to see it.

It's a lot.

But then when the video series is, well, here's what's interesting about that. We had tables of 10, and I had my group leaders that were collecting information. And so I said to them, I said, based on the guys at your table, what percentage would you say have admitted that they struggle? And they said about eight out of 10. So out of 200 guys, you got eight out of 10 that are struggling. But when we finished the video series in time to go into seven Pillars, the transition was very low. And it was exactly what you were talking about, Nick, is if I'm, it's okay here, but if I move into seven Pillars, my wife will know what I'm doing. And so it just was a much lower participation, which was a little frustrating. But I totally understand because there's a lot of pain that comes with that revelation.

Yeah. And I know sometimes churches can be kind of numerically driven of like, well, if it's successful, 200 guys, then we should have 180 that are in these seven pillars groups. And if it's only 20 or 15, they can look at it and feel like, well, that was unsuccessful. I try to share with leaders. That's very normal. It's like a funnel. You want to have a really big top that as many people come in as possible. And it's going to go down to a much smaller entry point, especially if you're just starting these groups, because there is a lot of unknowns, there's a lot of fear, there's a lot of mystery. But if you have a few groups that are run well, where men are experiencing freedom and they start sharing their story, then even those groups will begin to grow because people see that, oh, this really is safe. Our church really does want to help. I really could join in. And so I had a similar experience at our church where we had like 50 some guys do the video series, and only five to 10 of those signed up to do the ongoing groups. But I watched over the next couple of years how it ended up being closer to 20 to 25 of them. It just took some guys longer to get to that point of taking that step. But it was the safe entry point, I think, that gave them the thought that maybe one day I could do this.

Yeah. The other side of that is when you have too many that transition too quickly, you don't have the quality of leadership to lead the groups. So by having that smaller group that does come through, you can build a better quality team.

It's not a terrible byproduct.

Leadership snowball, so to speak, for sure.

So kind of related to that. For many men and even for many churches, there can be an assumption that seven Pillars of Freedom groups are kind of separate from other discipleship approaches. But why is this not the case? How are these groups a vital part of spiritual growth for men?

I'll get there, but I'm going to get there Roundabout, probably. When I first was early in my recovery, I read the book the Cure. And I don't remember a lot about the book, but I do remember one super impactful thing, at least to me. And what he said was, as disciples, we are meant to love others as Jesus loves us. However, when we have hidden sin in our lives, we can't receive that love because the people that are loving us, whether we acknowledge this consciously or subconsciously, are uninformed of who we really are. And so we know that we. And we believe we aren't lovable. If they knew who we were, they wouldn't love us. So that love can't actually go through us. It blocks there, and we can't receive it. So with that in mind, if you think about trying to disciple someone that can't receive love because they have unresolved trauma or addiction in their life, it's not going to be effective. So the way I look @ this is seven pillars is that process of going through and cleaning out that sin confession, and then that love of Jesus can actually flow through you and you can actually receive discipleship. The extreme I always ask, is, if I was to tell you 7 out of 10 men in your church were addicted to meth, how effective would your discipleship program be? Well, you'd go, the first thing I got to do is get them off meth.

Yeah.

So that they can become disciples.

Right, Right. Because that's such a hindrance, for sure. And even understanding, too, like the motive, because the more you understand about sexual brokenness, you understand it's not actually about sex. That has far more to do with the wounds and the trauma that we've experienced in our past, also our family of origin, all of that. And so I think in that way, you're taking much more of a. Not just saying, like, the past is the past, but looking at how a person got to where they are. And discipleship has to incorporate that. Like, I have to know where I've been in order to know how to get to where I want to get to. I think that's a really important piece. And I mentioned this on the previous episode, too, and I feel like it's going to come up in every single one of these episodes in this series, is that our discipleship has to be holistic. It cannot be. We're only going to give you basically all this brain knowledge about what the Bible says about theology, about what it means to be a disciple, but not talk to you about how to treat your body or not, how to take care of yourself, mentally. And sexuality is something we're born with. It is part. It's literally built into us from the day we were born, as God is forming us in our mother's womb. Sexuality is a part of that formation. And so if we want our discipleship to actually be something that people are growing and becoming better versions of themselves, becoming more like Jesus, becoming better husbands and wives, our discipleship has to incorporate sexuality because it is a part of the holistic being we are.

It seems like a big part of spiritual growth is removing the barriers that keep us from growth 100%. I mean, if you've got a garden and you've got really terrible soil, it doesn't matter how much time and work you put into the seeds and water and fertilizer, the soil is going to keep the growth from happening. Or if we were doing. To your point, Mike, if there's some secret, undiagnosed battle with pornography or sexual sin, other things are just going to bounce off. It'd be like if you were doing a financial stewardship class and someone never revealed that they have a hidden secret credit card and a $20,000 bill that's hanging over their head. It doesn't matter. All the other budgeting techniques and, you know, tracking software, like, it's not going to help unless you know that we've got to deal with this unaddressed part of your life. And I think the same is true in our sexuality, that it may not seem like on the same level as Bible study and prayer and some of the typical spiritual disciplines, but I guarantee you, if someone has this issue unresolved in their life, it is a constant block for them. And so to free them of that hindrance is to free them for greater growth. And I think when we see that, it just impacts every area of our discipleship.

Yeah, I know when this term. I don't know if I don't think I developed this, but I remember feeling when I was in my addiction, I was doing all the right things at church. I was volunteering. I was involved in parachurch ministries and youth ministry and those kinds of things. But I look back now, and I was spiritually neutered, so to speak. I looked good, and no one could tell that I had an issue. But inside, I just was stunted. I couldn't grow. And there was some frustration there. And in some respects, I think when you try and disciple someone who has that blockage, it just increases their shame because on some level, they go, if I was a real Christian, I would be growing. I would Be feeling the presence of Jesus. I would be doing all these things, and I'm not. And I've got this hidden sin that I can't get past in my mind. The lie I always believed was, if you were a real man, you could overcome this on your own. Right. And so here I was, hidden in this kind of stunted spiritual growth stage. Looked all the part. I attended church every week. I was there on Wednesdays, very involved, but I wasn't living the life that God had called me to live, and I couldn't.

Yeah, a couple different things are coming to mind, but I just feel like if you have cancer in your body and you're expecting to function properly, like, that's just silly to think about. But sexual addiction, sexual brokenness, can be so cancerous in your soul, in your body, that you're not able to function properly. And so assuming that I can just tell someone who has cancer, like, well, just get up, go for a run every day. It'll be good for you. It's like, well, I can't. I physically am not capable of actually doing that. And so I feel like that's a. Maybe just another illustration to use because this is something that is so deeply seated and rooted to who we are as people, the way God created us, and is the one area we feel most shame about. My opinion, but I think that it's the most shameful area or topic that we have in the church. And yeah, I just. Again, echoing everything that we said, it should be a part of the discipleship process. Absolutely. Okay, so let's kind of pivot a little bit here to what is covered in the seven Pillars of Freedom material. So what topics, what themes do we process through as we go through the material? And then what are the weekly meetings and weekly time commitments look like as well?

Well, the Pillars is a comprehensive course that, you know, they say it takes 10 months. Sometimes it takes as much as 12. Just because there's a lot of information to process. And if you want everybody to participate, sometimes it's going to go a little longer. You know, they want you to have homework for 30 minutes a day and two hours a week is a commitment. You know, we have structures to how the meetings are run. There is a lot of stuff you learn. I was kind of processing this question, and I remember. Well, I had been through about. I would say I've had about five years of counseling in total, in fits and spurts. I remember when I finished Pillars for the first time, I told somebody that was worth three years of counseling. That I had spent 15 grand on. And so I accomplished that in one year where I'd been going to weekly sessions.

The kit is 80 bucks.

Yeah, 80 bucks.

15.

Exactly. And so there is a lot in it. And I think the piece that was so valuable for me was the trauma piece. Nobody, I don't know, most people go, I don't have any trauma. And then as you work through that, you go, holy moly. I have a lot of lies that I believe based on the things that have happened to me. And those lies are affecting the way I view life and navigate my relationships with other people.

Yeah. The weekly commitment, you know, that we talk about, especially when you're early in the journey, is just making a plan that every day I'm going to do a little bit of work. And I think the way that that keeps our brain and our mind engaged in our healing is really, really important. And we say if you had 20 to 30 minutes a day, you can cover it. I think most men find if they are spending 20 to 30 minutes a day, they get all the work done probably within the first three to four days most weeks. Some lessons are a little longer, but. But the invitation every week is to do some. Some self assessment to interact with the material. Because, you know, Mike says it's a lot of information, and it is, but we're not just trying to gain information. We're actually trying to apply it. We're actually trying to understand what's happened in our story and how to relate to it and then to bring that to the group so we have something to share. And so you've got usually some of that kind of self assessment within each lesson, but then we also do a weekly evaluation of just where am I at in terms of an emotional relapse kind of scale that we call the faster scale and the commitment to change, which we've talked about those on other episodes, but there's some weekly tools that you use that are part of that work between groups and then interacting with the lessons. So I've told guys 20 to 30 minutes a day, you'll probably get that done in three, four days every week if you're doing that. So I think it's doable when a guy says to me, oh, I just didn't have time for the work. It's like, well, let's talk about your week. Like, how many hours did you work? And then you find out that, well, they actually were able to get in 12 episodes their favorite television show, or that they spent Friday, Saturday on an overnight fishing trip. And it's like, hey, great. And I try to not ever say you shouldn't do those things, but to bring it up as kind of a question of priority. Like, if this truly is something you want out of your life, we have to make healing a priority. And if we are able to spend 12 hours watching our favorite TV show, but we didn't get around to the work, is it a question of time or is it a question of our commitment level? And so when you bring it up that way and you say to a guy, do you have 20 to 30 minutes a day to work on your healing? It's like, well, yeah, I could do that. It's like, okay, then you've got more than enough time to do the group work. And then the weekly commitment to the group itself is a two hour group commitment. Yeah.

And even with the weekly recovery work, it's not necessarily because I think it's not just, oh, I have to be in my workbook or I have to be in my journal. It could be listening to podcasts, it could be making your weekly phone calls. It could be there are other aspects to it that make it much more of an experience. It's not just writing stuff down in a book, for sure. And I wanted to mention that the weekly meetings are the 40, 60, 20 plan we talk about. 40 minutes is going through your faster scale, your commitment to change, recapping what the week was. 60 Minutes, going through the material that you worked through in the workbook, and then 20 minutes looking at your commitment to change in the meeting. And so it really is something where you're evaluating where you were that week, you're sharing and experiencing. And one of my favorite parts of group in that when you're going through the weekly work that you have done in the workbook is you're getting to hear other guys experience and you're making connections in your mind. Like, oh, I didn't think about that. Oh yeah, I've had a similar experience. And okay, I'm gonna write that down. And there's so many moments of self discovery that can happen both when you're doing it during the week, doing your actual work, but then when you're actually listening to other guys share and having those conversations, that is just a beautiful time. But then the last 20 minutes is really just looking at what can I do this week to continue stepping forward in recovery? And so it's very like, to me, that's just a great model in general. I mean, if every Bible study was set up that way, that'd Be great. But I really do think that it's important to just understand that there's a plan going into it. It's not just everybody's going in and we're just going to share. How'd you do this week? And then maybe someone cried, maybe someone didn't share. No, everyone gets in. Everyone shares. Everyone is invested in this 40, 60, 20 plan.

Some of the biggest aha's I've had are listening to what someone else said, and something clicked in my mind.

Well, and your brain is looking for that connection that I'm not alone. Other people understand. It's not just an insight thing. I mean, it is insight, but it's the way that it creates shared experience with others that invites us into community rather than staying in isolation. Smike, I know you've had this experience a couple of times where churches have never had a group, never run groups. How could someone within a church approach their leadership about possibly running these groups for the first time?

Well, it's interesting because like I said, the second church I went to.

I.

Had a few advocates on the inside, but the leadership wasn't, and I don't blame them. I was a new commodity to the church. I was on fire for Jesus wanting to help other guys. And I came in like a wrecking ball, so to speak. And they were hesitant, of course. They didn't deny the problem because they knew it was there. So they kind of gave us a modular way off in the corner, which.

Is at least something.

It was something. It was a place to start, and I was grateful for that. The thing that I was lacking was credibility. In all honesty, it wasn't until Nick and I made connection and he came to the church with his degrees and seminary degrees as a pastor, executive director, his role, and spoke. And all of a sudden, it was like the doors opened, opened wide. So part of the challenge is when we go to a church, depending on the church, you might not have the degrees that they want you to have. They're not going to allow you to. I think one of the biggest lies is the devil will tell you you are not qualified for ministry because of what you've done. And he told me that, and I believed it. I was like, please, God, do not let me be done. But what I realize now is what God has allowed me to go through. And my healing qualifies me for ministry in a way that some of these pastors cannot. They cannot do. And so that's such a beautiful thing. And so if anybody is listening to this that believes that it's a lie. This actually may be the greatest thing that's ever happened to you as far as ministry, you know, with that, too.

And, you know, we've talked about this, that when you experience recovery and healing and you really start to make some traction, it's like you've just won the lottery. It's like, I've been looking for this. I've been trying. I've been buying lottery cards every single week my entire life. And finally something has worked. Something's happened to me. And we wanted to share with everybody about it. I think that there needs to be tact and patience in the way you develop relationships with your leaders. You know, we talked about it last episode. We talked about it a lot on the podcast. That, like, you can't just come in and say, you're doing this wrong. There's a problem. Here's how we fix it. Run with it. You can't do that. You have to understand that relationship needs to be built. Because for you, the known commodity piece is you just probably didn't have the rapport that people have with the leaders there who've been there for maybe 10 years, right? And again, you have to understand there's this balance where you're not manipulating, but you are getting to know your leaders. You're starting to share your story. You're starting to become familiar with what the church does, the systems and structures that they have, their discipleship models, all of that. But be patient. You know, it may take a year to finally get that first group to launch. But I'm gonna tell you what, the healing that's gonna come after that first group is worth that year of work that you put in. And so pace yourself, be patient, and don't feel like you have to come in and change the game out the gate. Cause that's. Honestly, you're just gonna be discouraged and probably walk away or try to find another church. And maybe you were the advocate God wanted at that church for that time to build those relationships, to start groups.

I wish I'd had the Group Pathway, honestly, because it would have given me some credibility that I didn't have. And so we've got this tool called the Group Pathway. And it's an introduction video by Nick. There's an invitation video from him, a testimonial video of Josh Putnam and his wife, who is an amazing worship leader.

Yes, he is.

We love him.

We've got Nick and Michelle's Focus on the Family interview. Lots of tools that are catered to a pastor to give credibility to what you're wanting to present to them. And it also has some email templates that you can customize. Make it personal. And I think one of the greatest things is it connects that minister to a ministry where you've received healing. It's kind of a triangle thing where it connects all three of us together, where we are there to help you take whatever steps are necessary. We'll even actually have our staff meet with your pastor to help you start groups. So there's a lot of hindrances, but this tool is a big help.

Yeah, yeah. The group pathway will be in the show notes, too, so check that out, because we're really excited to kind of have that together that volunteers can take and have something to offer. And I tell people all the time, I say, you know, when you're talking to a pastor or leader, invite skepticism. Like, welcome it. Don't. Don't be turned off or bothered by that, because the truth is, you may know pure desire way better than they do. And they've heard about a lot of stuff that's out there, a lot of approaches. I mean, maybe they've even heard things about pure desire that aren't entirely accurate, but that put us in a negative light. Or they think certain things about it, like, oh, they're just that. Or they're just into psychology. Or it's like, invite skepticism to say, hey, would you check it out? Because I think there's more to it. I've got a video you could watch. We give pastors and leaders access to watch the whole first session of Sexual Integrity 101, which really does give an overview, I think, of our healing process. And so whatever you can do, don't be turned off by that. Say, would you check it out? Would you look into it? And then just making yourself available to say, I'm here to help. And depending where you're at, as you brought up Mike in how long have you been at that church? How well are you known? And maybe your healing is pretty fresh, and leaders may have an understandable level of, are you really ready to be taking part in this? That skepticism is fair. And so I think just making yourself available to the level the church is willing to let you be involved. It's good. And then trusting, like Trevor said, trusting God to lead that process and that if it takes some time, that's okay. But in that patient, just continuing to gently bring up the opportunities, believing that God will open the door when the time is right.

Yep. Yeah.

Yep. So what does leadership training look like specifically for leading Seven Pillars of Freedom for men.

In the past, I mean, we have had kind of a stepping stone. Participate in a group, co. Lead a group, lead a group. And that has worked. I mean, it's discipleship taking place totally. However, one of the downsides to that is you find that it's kind of like telephone, where the structure and everything kind of gets. You know, they might be playing beer pong at the end of the group. Who knows?

That would be a new one. How did you, like.

I didn't know that you knew that. My groups did that at the end of every basket.

Yeah. But recently we came up with a group leader training process. And it's a video course.

Right.

It was meant to kind of create some structure and consistency over what the group leaders are learning. And it also provides a connection back to us and our group's team so that we become a resource for those group leaders. So it's. I think it's got eight videos, there's probably 50 modules, five to seven minutes.

Yeah.

Six hours of content, very structured. And you will learn things from this that you would never have learned from your leader. Because things do come up.

Yeah.

You know, how do I handle somebody who's looking at child porn? Right. How do I handle these things? And so this is going to give us much more consistency across the leadership, the group leaders. And it is just a great resource.

Yeah. And we like to tell people that the person who is most qualified to lead a group is someone who has been through a group and experienced healing for themselves. And kind of like you said, because of our story, we may feel like we're disqualified and maybe we're permanently disqualified, even if we're healthier. When the truth is these groups are not led by experts. They're not meant to be led by teachers or counselors. They're meant to be led by someone who is in the fray with all the other guys. Like, I'm in this for myself and hopefully I'm a little bit down the road and I'm experiencing some healing. But that is just what we said earlier. That is what qualifies you. And so if your church is ready to have you serve, and I think that's an important part of it at the local church level, we always want to do it in conjunction with church leadership. So they have a role to play in vetting their leaders. And if they feel comfortable with you leading, you don't need to have gone to some master's degree program. If you've been through group and you're experiencing healing, you can lead and Then the group leader training is just to help add to your tool chest so that you're more equipped and more familiar with the process. But it is your experience that equips you. So don't ever undersell that.

You know, it's interesting as you go through group, I'm always looking for the guys in the group that are going to be group leaders because that's my goal is to replicate myself and have some kind of legacy related to this ministry. And there are guys that will, they're type A, they're going to go, I got it, I'm going to take off, just give me the books. I'm going to round up 12 guys and pull them in a group. But then you also have the guys that are like, I've got sobriety, I'm living well, but I'm just not sure I'm qualified or I have the confidence. And I think this is just one more really comprehensive tool that can give them the confidence to go, I know how to run a group.

Yeah, I think just some supplemental things for me, my experience, the group leader training wasn't around when I first started leading groups and there was no one at my church who had led groups before. So I just went for it. And I think that happens from time to time. The group leader training is obviously where we want you to start, like go there first. But you also have like our weekly podcast, our blogs, our groups team that we have here. Also we have church group advisors which are also regional people that oversee and offer support to leaders. And so just know that those are also really there are aspects to development and growing. I mean they're things that we can leverage for sure for our benefit.

That is such a good point because the podcast has kind of backfilled in that respect because we've got stuff on the faster scale, the double bind, some of these really difficult things to try and understand initially. There's some great podcasts on that. And so I have seen a lot of guys that are just self starters will go, okay, I'm just going to start listening to all the podcasts on leadership.

You know, something that we haven't mentioned yet too is with this new update to seven pillars that we've made, we have a video component to it. There's a video companion where Nick, you're teaching that. And that's really good for group leaders too as they're getting into it to watch ahead maybe a week so that you know what's coming.

Well, it's really for the whole group.

It is for the Whole group absolutely.

Answers a lot of the questions about how do I answer these questions? What's the purpose of this lesson? Yep.

But I think as a leader watching, like, if you know that you're getting into pillar one, lesson two, maybe before that, group watch video three, because that will give you some prompts as to some. Because this is really in. This was created to help people have clarity and really clear the deck so you know exactly what we're getting into this week and what to focus on. And so as a leader, that can be just a really practical thing, too.

To set you up.

And I think I wear this same shirt in one of those videos.

100%.

That's kind of funny. 100%. So, Mike, let's talk about another issue that churches face. You know, especially when they're launching groups. A concern might be, if we open the door to this, we actually will have too many men. And, you know, we talk about the ideal group size being, you know, six or seven men max with their leader. What if a church has more than that? What can they do to handle a situation where there are too many guys and not enough leaders for a group?

This is a challenge. I've had this happen a couple times.

It's not a bad problem to have.

No, but it is too full.

Right. A good problem.

In one of those situations, I had a co leader, and so we would kind of debrief before and split. But in many cases, that's not a solution because you only have one leader and you can't split. So a couple of tactics I have used is right at the beginning, when you do your check in, that's where a lot of groups lose control. And I'm kind of a rule follower, so I like to try and stick to that 40 minutes kind of. So I've often used a timer on my phone and just say, guys, there's eight of us in this group. We got 40 minutes. You got five minutes a piece. Start by reading what you wrote. We'll ask questions if we have them. Because if you don't set those parameters, some guy will be telling you about his fence project and going on and on sometimes. So you just have to. That seems to be the place where people get stuck. Yeah. Then as you get into the homework section, you can kind of have them stick to the writing, too. And because they can really get off there. But the intro is usually where guys lose it. I mean, I've talked to group leaders who go, like, how do you guys get through the homework? It takes us an hour and A half to get through check in. And I'm like, well, you need to get some control on the check in.

That's why you should watch the group leader training.

Right.

For sure. Yeah. I think you can split off. I think that again, this was my experience. My first group, I probably had two or three guys who could have led a group. Even though they'd never been through it, they could at least facilitate it. And there is that kind of approach that historically at Pure Desire was like, if you have a pulse and you can push play, then you can lead a conquer group. Or if you can show up every week and share first, then you can lead a seven pillars group. And so I think at some level you may get to that point where that's kind of like a half measure, at least a step to offer more things. But I think this is a great. To me, this emphasizes the need to offer multiple groups throughout the year or group starts. That if you can sort of cast that out where maybe you start a group in January and then in May you start another group and then three months later you start another group. I think that that can help with this. It's not a perfect solution, but at least offers like, we're full right now. We got 10 guys and we're having a hard enough. Like Mike is giving us five minutes to share every week. We cannot add another person. But knowing in two months, in one month and three months, there's going to be another group started. Sign up for that right now. That can at least give people hope that I am going to get into a group if we have too many guys. Yeah.

There's definitely an idea though, if you want to strike while the iron is hot. I mean, if you've got 14 guys that are ready to jump into group, you don't want to tell half of them. Well, sorry, it'll be six months. Because what I've seen happen over and over is in six months they've decided, I don't really need this, I'm not ready or the divorce. So figure out. Yeah. What you can do. So that might mean like, oh, we have more than we thought. We're actually going to start with Sexual Integrity 101. We're going to go through all of this together because you can do that with a larger group and break into discussions. And while you're doing that, if you're the one leader you're looking for. Okay. Who else could take a group and starting to work with them during SI101 and getting them to go through the group Leader training, so that by the time you're at the end of that, you could launch two groups. So that's a possibility. That's great. Another thing that you could recommend is Pure Desires. Online groups could be a place that several guys could jump in on while there's maybe no room in the local church. One other thing I've seen, if you're kind of in that borderline zone, you've got eight to 10 guys, I will usually start because I've seen there's typically an attrition, especially in the local church, where people are coming, you know, other than buying the workbooks, they haven't had to commit, or there's some voluntary participation. It's not uncommon to have, you know, 10 to 20% drop out in the first few weeks. And I will almost try to, you know, not in a mean way, but I'll emphasize this has got to be your priority. You have got to be here every week. You've got to do the work. You've got to be committed to it. And I'll just find even maybe after that first meeting, some of the guys that said they were in are like, actually, you know, my work schedule or, you know, they. They come up with reasons, and I'm fine with that. It's like, okay, they're not ready, and I'll end up with seven guys. So if you're in that borderline, eight to 10 guys, just emphasize all of the commitments, and you'll probably end up with seven or eight, and you can make it work.

Another just. I'm just kind of spitballing. There may be other churches in your area that are offering groups too. And it's not the worst to say, you know what, we're full. But I know a church right down the street who runs groups, and they're starting one in a few weeks, or they have one going right now and help make that connection, like as the leader, help facilitate that connection to that group leader at that other church. But I think that that's just another option. I know there are local churches around here that if we ran into that at the church you and I attend, or used to attend, sorry, we don't go to the same church anymore. No confusion there. But if you have that happen, just knowing, like, oh, hey, there's this church down the road, I think that can be helpful and hopeful for guys.

I've actually done that quite a bit because when we first started groups, like you show the SI101, you have three groups, start all at the same time, and then Slowly, you have three or four guys that contact you and want to get in a group. So our goal was eventually to try to have groups that were starting quarterly. And I love the idea of showing SI101 quarterly as well, because then it can get them in the process so that they're feeling like they're doing something until their group can fill. The other thing I was going to bring up at this point was having relationships with key people in your church, like your family pastor, the men's ministry, you know, that can refer guys to use, because what will happen is sometimes you'll get two guys, and you're like, oh, we're just waiting for two more.

Yeah.

And so if you can get some referrals from the men's ministry, the family pastor, I would. I would also say you have your guys get involved. Encourage them to be involved in men's ministry and cr, if that's applicable, so that they can share their story. And through sharing their story, other people will want to join, too, so you can get kind of that momentum.

Yeah, yeah.

We've kind of answered the next question. I think that's what I saw in the church that I led, where if we had a group starting about every three to four months, it was good timing because we were sharing people's stories, we were highlighting the groups. I think in some church contexts, there is a mindset that September, October is just when all of our groups start. And so you definitely want to have a group that launches then. And if in your context, that's the only time they're allowed to start, you need to work with that. You need to be under your leadership and do the best you can. But I think to cast the vision of boy, if we could launch group in September, there is kind of a, hey, we're coming back into routines. It's a good time to start. But what I also found is, and we talked about it on this podcast a lot, that holidays can be rough for patterns and relapses. And if you have a group starting in January, there is kind of a, okay, start off, fresh start, new year. That can be a great launching point. And then I found again that shortly after Easter or spring break was a good launching time because there was just more people who maybe came to Easter services and were looking to reengage with church and taking their journey seriously. And so just that became a pattern for us. About every September, January, and April, we'd have at least a group starting, which gave people an entry point at any given time. Yeah.

Because the question we're asking or we're answering at this point is how many times should we start seven pillars groups every year? And I think what's cool, kind of facilitated from this conversation is using Sexual Integrity 101. That video course strategically can help kickstart some of those. So if you have that already in place, where there's a rhythm to it every year, there are multiple times you can have that set up that on the back end of that eight week course, you have seven pillars groups started there and then you have leaders already lined up. And so you can, man, it's just funny like you're building this recovery ministry as you go. It's not that you have to build it all out and that, you know, it's not a build it and they will come and everyone will come to this. Like it's not Field of Dreams, which is a great movie, but it is something where if you can start and grow organically over time, like it's that flywheel kind of idea. Like over time it's going to create momentum for itself.

Yeah, I was going to say if everyone, if anyone is hearing our answers and is starting to get overwhelmed, like, oh my gosh, we can't do all this. Just like if you're looking at your first group, that's all you need to worry about. Don't worry about some of this. Like when you get there, God will lead you and show you the path. Right now, just focus on starting where you're at and trust that these further stages will come. But for others that are at that place, hopefully this gives them some insight into how to start multiple groups and handle men that are coming. So Mike, we know that full recovery can be a two to five year process in terms of lasting change in our brain and relationships. But these groups are typically nine or 10 months long, meaning that at the end of group there's still more time. So what is next? What can we do to motivate men to continue in their recovery journey after their first time through seven pillars of Freedom?

Well, I am a firm believer that every guy that goes through recovery should reach back and help other guys. So I'm always looking for leaders and co leaders and those kinds of things. So if the guy's been sober for six months in his first group, I would encourage him to be a co leader in another group. If a guy is still struggling, then I would encourage him to go through group again just for that process. Like I said, I'm always thinking about these leaders and so I want all the guys in my group, regardless of where they're at in the process, to start thinking, how can I give back? And it might be that they. Like, I've had guys that go, we don't want to go through pillars again. We're all sober, doing well, but we want to stay together. So some of them will do a book, book study, stay together. But I still even try and stay in touch with those guys and say, hey, really, how can you pay that back to some other guys outside your group? Because I know this is comfortable. I know it's comfortable to be in your group, but the reality is God's called you to something bigger because he's healed you in this process, and he wants to help you pay that forward well.

And what's so cool about seven pillars? And this is not the reason that it was created. Like, the first time through, I found sobriety. The second time through, I started to realize, like, I'm addicted to food and, like, this is an issue in my life. And I started to see that some of the same wounds that were motivating my unwanted sexual behavior were also motivating other areas of unwanted behavior. And for me, you know, we talk about the onion and the layers. Like, that's what happens when you go through seven pillars multiple times. And I've been through it, I think, three times, no, four times now. And each time is different. And there's a new layer that I'm finding. And there are times when you think about it like, man, I've already been through this. How many times do I have to go through my top 10 worst moments? But you get there again, you're like, I don't remember thinking that in my previous groups. I don't know if I made that connection with my dad growing up. I don't know if I made that connection with how painful that emotional moment was on the baseball field. You start to really make these connections more and more. And what's great is that is just. That's fresh ground, that maybe you've been over these themes and these topics before, but you're experiencing it afresh. And I think that that's another next step is going through it. I know Mike, and I don't want to steal your thunder, but I know you are committed to being in group for the rest of your life, and there are guys who are going to do that, and you're going to experience healing new every single time you go through that new season. It's going to be good.

You brought up that point. There's two reasons why I will be in group one is because I just want to stay committed to it. It gives my wife confidence that I'm on the straight and narrow, and it gives me confidence that I'm on the straight and narrow. But it also is the most rewarding thing I've ever done in my life. When guys first come in a group, oftentimes their lives are hanging by a thread. You don't know if their marriages are going to survive. They're often really squirrely. They have no confidence because they know that they're struggling with something that they view as super shameful. And just to watch the process as they begin to resolve the trauma and open up to their identity of who they are in Jesus Christ and then become a leader, it is phenomenal. Just last week, a guy that I had led through group, probably in 2014, he had been a missionary to China. He'd gotten somehow locked up in porn and he was paralyzed, couldn't do his job. They pulled him off the field and he got into group. We went through group together. He got sober. He's been leading groups ever since. He called me or texted me two weeks ago and said, I just graduated with my counseling degree, would you be able to come and celebrate with me? You know, and those kind of things feed my soul.

Absolutely.

I love knowing that, not that I did anything, but that I was part of a process that God initiated in someone's life.

Yeah. In this question on next steps, I think you've got to be attentive to what is God doing in your life? What's his purpose for you? For many men, it is going through group again. And there is, there is no shame in going through group twice if you still need additional healing. It's like if two people have a shoulder injury and one recovery takes six months and 12 years, we wouldn't look at the two year guy and go, well, shame on you. What's wrong with you? It's like, well, the injury was different or it required more extensive treatment. And that may just be the nature of one guy's struggle versus another. And at the same time, using that physical therapy analogy, if the shoulder is not healing and the doctor says, well, are. Are you doing all of the at home exercise that I've assigned you? And the guy's like, well, no, then what's the doctor gonna say? They're saying, okay, well, we need to get you on this regimen of doing these exercises to rebuild strength. And so if you went through the first time, and maybe because I've heard this from guys, they just kind of blunder their way through, they don't really commit, they do the bare minimum and they get to the end going, well, dang, I'm not making progress. It is kind of a wake up call. Like, well, did you do all the exercises? Did you do the work? And if they say, well, no, then it's an opportunity to say, I'm not healing like I want, I need to do all the work. And so just again, there's no shame in going through twice for yourself. The other thing I would mention is if you're in a much healthier place, it's an opportunity to re engage with the ministries of your church, particularly your men's ministry. I mean, I look at the local church and say men's ministries need men who are there fully alive, aware of their brokenness, not trapped in shame, able to talk about their, their sexual brokenness and recovery. Because that's going to funnel more men back into recovery groups than almost anything I can think of. And so if you feel like man, God used this, it accomplished a great work in my life. And now in a way going back to like that missionary word, I'm a missionary to the other men in my church because as we know, there's a lot of them struggling and maybe they do show up at the men's breakfast or the men's game night or whatever your church has because it's safe, it's acceptable. But if you're there also going, man, listen to what God did in my life, it's just going to create that opportunity for other men. So if that's what God has for you, pursue that. And that doesn't mean you've left pure desire. That means you've been sent out to continue using your story in another venue.

That's good. Okay, so how do we handle, and we see this from time to time in churches, how do we handle the situation where a pastor or a leader in the church needs the seven Pillars? Pastors are people too. They need recovery as well. But in this context they need a seven Pillars of Freedom group in their church. Is it appropriate for them to be in the same group as guys from their church? And maybe what are some things if it is okay to be aware of in that situation?

This is a really good question. And I think in some levels it's above my pay grade. I have had pastors in my groups, but they've never been my pastor. So I think that's different because in, in that context, to me they're just like any other Guy, they're not disclosing anything to me that's going to get back to their congregation. I do, however, know Nick. That's part of his story, and so I'd kind of defer to him on this.

The two things I would say, if you are the lead pastor, if it's the lead pastor we're talking about, I do not think their first healing group should be in their church. It just so challenging to be leading yourself through this while other men and detaching your role as pastor from your need for recovery. So I led groups as the lead pastor in my church, but it was after I'd been through a full year of groups and counseling with pure desire somewhere else and with the support of my elders. And so then when I launched it in the church, it was kind of a, hey, I continue to need these groups, but I had some traction, and it was a different place to be in. And I think if your lead pastor. The other thing, I'd say the second thing, if your lead pastor is supportive, they embrace healing groups. They see that we don't want this to be an issue that disqualifies you. We want to help you get healthy, then that can free associate pastors in that church, male or female, to be in groups. And so if you're in that situation where you know the pastors above you encourage this, then I think there's great participation opportunities. But I know in many, many environments, there are associate pastors that feel like, I'm legitimately fearful that if my senior pastor knew I was facing this issue, I would lose my job. And that's just a really hard decision to have to make about. Like, do I want to be vulnerable to the point of losing my only source of income? And so in that regard, a pastor joining an online group, going to a group somewhere else can really be a healthy pathway for them. So I think there are situations where it can work, but there are also situations where I don't think it's wise.

Yeah, like, for me, I was a pastor at a church and was leading my first group with guys that I was their pastor. I wasn't their lead pastor, which there is a distinction there to be made. I was also a lot younger than most of the guys in my group, and so there were some dynamics where it made it just more doable. And I had the full support of my lead pastor and our elders. So sometimes that can happen. But just. I mean, the answer to the question is depends. Depends on the dynamic, depends on what the structure is of your church. Depends on who's in your group, all of that. But also know that we have online groups specifically for pastors for this exact reason is because we want something where you can sort of be anonymous. People know you like in these groups you're gonna be known. The people are gonna know your name and the ministry that you have. But it's a way that's done in this safe place of other lead pastors or other pastors that are in ministry that can really create that safety for you to be real and own your recovery and healing with the hopes then that you would bring it back to your church. And maybe you are leading some of those groups or you're at least encouraging people to lead those groups in your church.

Yeah. As you brought that up, I do remember a situation where I did have a pastor from my church in my group now, not the lead pastor. And he did confess that he was worried about what the lead executive pastors would think about him being in group initially. And over time they did find out and they were very supportive. I don't know if that's always the case. You just don't know. I think it's right. It depends.

Well, guys, this has been awesome. I hope for everyone, whether they're a first time group member or a long timer, that there's been some new fresh ideas for them. I know there has been for me. But let's wrap up as we often do. What are some of your final tips as how do we run effective seven Pillars of Freedom groups in our church?

I would say, if possible, work hand in hand with your pastors, particularly men's ministry. Be involved in men's ministry yourself because that's our demographic. Encourage the guys in your groups to do so as well. I would meet with your group leaders regularly to pray. When I was overseeing these as a volunteer at my church, we would get together 20 minutes before groups just to kind of talk through any issues that were happening and just to kind of encourage each other and pray for each other. I think that's really important, you know, and like you said, I don't want to overwhelm people because it will grow and you'll come up with ideas. We tried things that worked really well. I mean, we started in that modular and before COVID hit, we had 70, 80 guys in groups. We were doing quarterly potlucks. We'd have guest speakers like Nick and Alan, and people come in and talk. We'd have people share their testimonies of healing. One of the things that if you're looking at A men's, like a group ministry for men. One of the things I think is super important is building a culture. And one of the things I tried to do was when we'd have the potlucks, I would say, how many of you have been leading a group for more than one year? Raise their hand, and I would ask everybody to give them applause. Two years, three years, four years, five years. Then the very end, I would say, how many of you are in your group for the first time? And then I would say, can we give these guys applause for their courage to take this step? And what I was trying to do was to build this culture where we were applauded for one, being vulnerable, transparent, courageous and a leader, and giving back to the guys in the group. And. And I think that's so important. And like Nick said, men's ministry struggles at churches. And this is an area where you can get guys who are real and transparent to be leaders in their church.

Yeah. My encouragement is to just trust and believe in organic growth. I know that you want to help everybody all at the same time and all at once, but don't be discouraged by small numbers. Be encouraged that those three, five, seven men who are joining your group right now, maybe you're hoping for 50 and you only got seven. Those seven men's lives have a really, really good shot at being changed forever because they're in that group. And so focus on what's in front of you. Don't look at all what you're missing out. Trust that God's bringing the right people at the right time to create the right organic growth over time for ministry.

Yeah. I think that's what came to mind for me is the phrase stay the course. Because there's going to be high moments and low moments. There's going to be guys that flake out and guys that commit. There's. There's going to be groups that are just home runs and groups that for a lot of reasons can just kind of flounder. And I think in those low moments, there can be discouragement or be like, ah, this is so hard. Why do I bother? And I think we can stay the course and just be committed to it. And I would encourage you as a listener. When I've seen churches that have seven pillars groups and then they don't, it's because no one really continued to carry the ball. They didn't stay the course. Everyone's like, oh, that was great. We did that. And then they move on. But if God's put this on your heart, Stay the course, be the one at your church. That's like every time an opportunity comes to saying, yeah, I'll lead another group, I'll help. And obviously you need to be aware of your own limits and not burn yourself out. But if you're willing to take that role, it'll make a huge difference. And you'll go through seasons where maybe there's just a few and few guys and other seasons, like, it really flourishes, but it takes someone and then hopefully a team of people that just say, come hell or high water, we're going to keep doing this because we know the effectiveness it has in changing men's lives.

This seems like I hadn't planned on this, but this seems like a really good place to share something that God showed me when I was believing that lie that you're not meant for ministry anymore, that you've been defiled, that no one will accept you. I was leading a group at that time, and I was praying. And God being an analytic, he gave me this kind of picture. And I created a spreadsheet of year one, if I would help one guy to become a leader and lead a group. Year two, that guy and I lead groups. If you carry that out for 20 years, you think about all the guys that are in those groups. I think it came to over a million men would be helped just by being faithful and leading one group a year. And I went. There are a lot of pastors who never have that kind of influence, knowing me, ever know my name, but just by being faithful and showing up. And so I always look at that as God. My job is just to show up, love and see these guys, encourage them, and develop a leader to duplicate myself. And when I get to heaven, hopefully there's a trail of guys that walk past that say, thanks, Mike, for your faithfulness.

Yeah, so cool. Well, as you can tell from our conversation, Pure Desire groups, specifically seven Pillars of Freedom groups, are a large need for churches and a necessary resource in the discipleship of our men. Whether you're already running seven Pillars of Freedom groups or are working to get them going in your church, we hope our conversation today really gave you a clear direction on how to run effective seven Pillars groups. For sure, Mike. That was a really cool way to end the episode too, man. I appreciate all the work that you've done and you being here today with us. Appreciate it.

I'm just so blessed to work with you guys. God is so good. It's awesome.

And wherever you're at on your journey, pure desire is here to help create a roadmap for your healing. If you were someone you know is impacted by sexual brokenness or betrayal trauma, go to PureDesire.org and begin the healing journey today. If this podcast is helpful on your journey, please share it with others. Make sure you subscribe to the podcast. Drop us a review. It helps others find the podcast. Each week we're putting out new content to help you on the road to healing and freedom. And lastly, never stop being helpful.

Sa.