274 - Running Effective Groups: Unraveled

Welcome to the Pure Desire Podcast, helping you take back your life from unwanted sexual behavior and betrayal trauma. Hello.

Hello.

I am your host, Trevor Windsor, and you're listening to episode 274 of the Pure Desire Podcast. Here joining me, as always, is my co host, Nick Stumbo.

Red Robin. Yum.

Oh, my gosh. Do you. Okay, can we talk about this for a minute?

It sounds like we're going to.

We're going to different than the Dave Ramsey thing. For those that listen to a recent episode, Red Robin is, and has been for a very long time my favorite restaurant in the entire world. And some of my friends, my very, very close friends, shame me for it. As if it's like, that's like saying Applebee's is your favorite restaurant. And it's like, so I don't like. Do you like Red Robin?

Yeah. I mean, it's funny how, like, anytime a restaurant is up and coming, it's okay that it's popular, but then, like, if we still like it after it, like, crests the peak of popularity, then it's no longer like Applebee's. I think there was a time, like, when I was in college, man, Applebee's was kind of a cool place to. But now it's like, you like Applebee's, and I think Red Robin suffers from that, like, its own popularity. But why I use that intro is because it is. It's familiar. It's always a good choice. And my wife and I on a date night or my family and I will end up at Red Robin a lot because we know. And obviously not everyone will disagree based on your experiences in your particular part of the country. But it's a safe choice in terms of, we know we'll like the food. We know there'll be options. There's fundraising. Yeah. And I think that's the connection to today's episode. As we talk about launching unraveled groups. Groups for women who need their own recovery is just how unsafe it feels for most women. Like, this isn't the kind of problem I'm supposed to have, and if I do have it, where do I go with it? And so I just kind of had this thought of, like, what if the women's recovery groups felt like Red Robin in terms of they felt safe, they felt approachable, women knew what they could expect. How many more women would show up? Because in the church, we know this is a real issue.

I'll just continue the illustration. Once you finish grouping, you've gotten healing. You get the mountain high mud pie, and you're living in health for the rest of your life. Yes. We had Ashley Jameson. We had Ashley Jameson, who's our associate director of women's groups on. And she not only helped create this resource of Unraveled, but is also leading these groups and helping women lead these groups all over the world. And so we talked to her about that and yeah, it was great. I mean, this is week three of our Running Effective Groups series. And we had to cover Unraveled because as we talk about in the episode, women struggle too. This is not just a man's problem. This is a people problem. Before we get to it, a few things, four things to be specific. First, we just want to highlight this every once in a while. We talk about it a little bit in the episode today, but Pure Desire offers online groups. Let's talk about that for a minute.

Yeah. You know, our mission is to help catalyze groups in the local church because we know long term this is how churches change, culture changes, when in our own communities we can find hope and healing. But we also know that for most people, that's not possible. There's nothing around them, their church isn't doing anything, or for their particular situation, the groups available to them are not safe options. And so we said we need to have an alternative where people can find a group, they can go through the process and as they find healing, hopefully be equipped to go back into their local church as change agents and start groups there. And so that's why we have online groups for men and for women, meet at different times during the week. That what works for someone, and what I always like to remind people is when they hear this, they might go onto our website and think, oh, they have all these groups. Because we do have about a hundred groups that are meeting. They're gonna look at the website, though, and there might be one. They're like, where are all these groups? Well, that's one of the distinctives about our groups is that once they fill, that becomes a closed group. Because we want people to have an experience together. We want them to get to know one another, go deep with one another, learn to trust one another. And that can't happen if they're open revolving groups. And so that's why if a group is on the. Because there are a couple of seats open, and if you need a group, I want to encourage you, jump in if you can make that time work and fill one of those seats. Because in all likelihood, in another day or two, that group will be gone. Now, hopefully in short order, more groups will come open. And that's every time a group opens, it goes up on the website. But I always just like to remind people that because they might go to the website and think, where are all these groups? Well, the truth is they're meeting. And so if you find a group that works for you, get in on it because then you're going to get that community with the other people that start at the same time you do.

And a unique aspect is that we have vetted and certified Pure Desire group leaders that are leading this. So you're getting the top level type of leadership of people who've been through this process. And so that we know is also going to help people bring groups back to their church. They're going to see what group leadership looks like and what a group experience should really look like. So if you're interested in an online group, we offer Unraveled Betrayal and Beyond seven Pillars. We even have some living free groups, maybe a Hope for Men a couple times. So if you want to look those up, just go to PureDesire.org groups a few more things. Subscribe to the podcast. I know I say it every single week and I'm thinking of our live in studio audience right here, the three people from out of town. You guys know I say it every single week. And I mean it. It means a lot. You subscribe to the podcast and leave us a review. It helps other people find the podcast. I know I say that every week, but I mean it. It does. When you leave a review, it helps people get exposed to it. You can follow us on social mediauredesirepdmi and you can see this full episode up on YouTube. Just search Pure Desire Ministries. Alright, with all that, here is our time with our associate director of women's groups, Ashley Jamieson on running effective unraveled groups. Ashley Jamison, welcome back to the podcast. Thanks for being with us.

Hi. I'm really glad to be here.

Oh my gosh.

It's like every time it's like, tell your face.

She thinks you're going to say more and then you stop and she's just like, she always says, oh, it's me. And then she responds, I'm going to be awkward. It's like the awkward pause.

Nick and I were just talking though that we're recording this the week after the summit and we got to see you for like four or five straight days and so we almost expected you to come in office, but no, you're backing Coeur d'. Alene. Oh, sorry, you don't want People to know where you live. You're somewhere around Idaho, the Upper Northwest.

That's right.

There might be dangerous people out there.

That's true for sure. But if they heard your session, they probably love you. All right, we're in week three of our running Effective Groups series. Today we're gonna look at unraveled groups, which are recovery groups for women. So let's just jump right in, Ashley. And we've talked about this already for the episodes beforehand in the series. But people who struggle with sexual brokenness carry tons of shame. We know that, but women even more so. This struggle is typically identified as a man's issue. This reality we know keeps women who struggle silent and they feel isolated. So what can we do as churches to diminish shame or the stigma for women who struggle? And then how do we create a culture, particularly for women, where it's okay to ask for help in this area?

Well, I feel like the answers are always difficult, but they're really simple. And it's just a really simple answer that we have to be talking about it, and you have to have people talking about it that look and sound like the people you're trying to reach. So to bring in female speakers, if you. If you're a predominantly male church, you know, on staff, bring. Have a female volunteer or somebody who's been through a group or bring in a speaker. We do that pretty well here at Pure Desire. But you have to have somebody who looks and sounds like the person you're trying to reach. And so until you get women up there on the stage, you're going to have a hard time. It's. It's great to hear it from the lead pastor, but women also need to see other women being brave and bold. And I would say, too, that you don't have to just let somebody loose to share their whole testimony and be scared of unleashing all of that. If you can do it interview style and just ask a few questions or. Or just give a little snippet to say, this is what this group is about. I've been there, I've used it. It's worked for me. It's been part of my life. If you want to find out more, then you can meet me on this day and time for an orientation. So you don't have to give your whole thing up there on the stage. Just say what the resource is about and that you used it for yourself.

When we've talked a lot on the podcast, how important the pronouns that we use are and how we talk about this area of struggle, that if it's those people with that problem, and maybe more specifically, if it's those men with that men's problem, well, we've immediately eliminated women in the room from being able to consider that because they don't. They don't fit. And so if you're a part of announcing it, if you're in leadership or if you're just part of a congregation, that anytime you talk about this subject, I think it's important to use those terms, we and us. And as a pastor, I would say all of us have been created by God as sexual beings. That's part of God's design in all of our lives. And all of us have been born into a broken, sinful world. And so that means every single one of us, male and female, has the image of God in our sexuality, but has been broken, born into a broken world that has impacted our ability to live out God's design. And so men and women, we all need help. And then it's great if you're able to promote. So for men, we've had these groups, and for women, we have these groups. And whether you're a male or female, you're going to get a very distinct approach that's been designed with you in mind. But our church is here to help all of us go after this issue together. And when you use that kind of inclusive language, I think it really does lift the shame of being. Well, it's just those people with that problem. So that's a big key.

Yeah. And another practical thing I think to consider is when you see a biblical example of a woman who struggles with sexual brokenness, to pull that out, to identify that, and not necessarily trying to make a big thing out of maybe what the text isn't trying to say, but, like, there are a lot of women in scriptures that had sexual brokenness. It's very, very clear. And so don't just breeze past that. But then also, too, I think about this a lot. When pastors and people from the stage are giving illustrations or examples, think about what examples you're giving. Like, if you're going to talk about someone who's struggling with sexual brokenness, like an application of a passage that you're preaching, identify a woman in that arena. Identify a woman who might be struggling with pornography. Identify a woman who might have unwanted sexual behavior. And I think that that's a really small kind of thing, but it tends to get overlooked. But people listen to that. When I'm listening to a sermon and someone says an illustration that Hits me, oh, yeah, that's me. He's talking about me. She's talking about me. That draws me in and helps me know I'm not alone. So even that small practical thing can be super helpful from the stage.

Yeah. So as we mentioned there, Ashley, there's that double shame that women can feel when they're struggling. Both the shame of the behavior and the shame of maybe the perception that I have a man's problem that I'm supposed to have. And so if we're trying to launch unraveled groups, particularly for the first time in our church or community, how could we launch them in a way that really creates safety for women who are struggling?

I think the examples you guys just gave are huge to reduce the shame for women. Because normally when women hear about any kind of help for this, it's going to be geared toward men. You know, even us here, we work really hard to try to use language that. That talks on both sides of betrayed spouses and people that are struggling. There's just so much shame because, you know, it's. It's interesting. The women that I've taken through group and even my own experience, when you find yourself sexually aroused by pornography that is created for men and it has women in it, there's this layer of shame that's like, what does this mean? That I'm not only looking at porn, but I'm aroused by females on porn. And so that just creates a lot of confusion. And I think the only way to break that down is for women to have the understanding. So it is going to be talks from the stage. And also including exactly what you guys said, including using female pronouns, having women speak, and then just creating that environment when women do come, whether it's to the orientation or first group that the leader or whoever's running all of this really sets the tone for a safe environment where everything is safe to share, that nothing is going to be mocked or laughed at or anything like that in a group, that we have to be a safe place for those women.

And we talk about this too, and this is 101 as far as our groups is concerned. But confidentiality is at the top of the list of the group guidelines. Like, you have to understand this is something we take very seriously, to the point where we may even remove group members if they break confidentiality. And so expressing that up front, I think is really helpful. But then we talked about this too, and this is just a natural good approach for starting groups in general is having one person who is the contact who that information is distributed to the church that if you are a woman and you struggle in this area, you're not alone. And here is the specific person, the specific phone number and email that you can reach this person so that it's not something specific woman.

Right?

Yeah, exactly. Yes, thank you. Pronouns are important.

You shouldn't have to say that, but we should make it clear. Like you should not have a man in the church be the primary contact for these groups. Even if he's the pastor. Even if he's the pastor over small groups. You need another woman who's a high level volunteer, doesn't have to be paid, but women need to reach out to women, especially in this area.

Right. And what this does when you have this one person is it helps protect that confidentiality and create safety for women when they're reaching out. And so it's not like, oh, my name is going to show up on an email thread or on a list out in the lobby. It's going to be this, this one person is the only person who's going to know that I struggle and then give me my next steps from there.

Yeah, don't put poor Julie in the back of the church and say, so if you've got questions about women's sexuality, talk to Julie in the back. And you know, poor Julie's already they're feeling alone and then no one comes to her because that would be very embarrassing and just an unwise environment. So, yeah, that confidential way to say, if you've got questions, here's how you reach out. They're the only person that will know. And it's also great if you want to direct them to the Pure Desire website. Say, hey, if you'd like to check out the material, here's the product page. You know, we've had a couple of podcasts on Unraveled. You could learn more about what you're going to experience. Because I think there is a natural question people have of like, what will this group be like? And what, what are they going to make me share? And if you don't really have a way that people can get some of those questions answered, that's just going to really create more hesitancy for people to do the group. And that's what I'd also say. When people reach out, a woman expresses interest in the group, I think the first invite should not be, do you want to join the group? But it should be, hey, we're going to do an informational meeting. And the time and date of that informational meeting is not Public because that does give women just like we recommend with men. It gives them the ability to get the information and still feel kind of confidential that, that if everyone knows well, and the women's sexuality informational meeting is Tuesday night at 7pm in the Fellowship hall.

I see Sarah's car there.

Anyone pulling in that night feels like everyone knows why I'm here.

Right.

So an informational meeting is great, but that's the kind of information that your contact person can share is hey, we're going to have a meeting, you know, next Thursday night. Here's where it is and I hope to see you there to answer all your questions.

Yeah, absolutely.

So Ashley, in thinking about announcing these groups for the first time, how have you seen Unraveled groups fitting into the overall discipleship model for women in churches? How can they make this part of their approach to disciple women?

Oh gosh. I mean, I feel so strongly about this and I feel like it's a little hard to explain unless you've experienced it. You hear people that work in a recovery type circle all the time say that people who are, have worked actively on their recovery are some of their favorite people to be hanging out with and be doing ministry with because they're so self aware and safe in a lot of aspects because they understand what's theirs to own and what's not. And, and I think with, with Unraveled, I, I, I can't think of a better discipleship opportunity because if we're carrying shame around our sexuality, it makes us inauthentic, it makes us want to hide. We talk about that with Adam and Eve like their, their sin covered caused them to cover their nakedness and somehow there's this connection there. And when we're doing something sexual, it's such a deep, shameful part of us if we, if we're out of line with what God wants for us and what we know to be true, that it can cause us to put on masks so people don't get too close, so that people don't discover the real us. It causes us to be insecure. Because I'm thinking as I'm serving in Awana at 17 years old, if people knew that I've had sex before, they wouldn't even want me near their children. And so there was this fear that I had in church because of my past. There was shame because, because when I, you know, applied to be a nursery worker, I, I figured it was because I marked divorced on my card that I never got a call. I'm like, they're Desperate for nursery workers. Why didn't they call me? It's probably because I'm divorced, where now I have more confidence in myself. And so if I go to a church and they end up discovering one of my secrets, I'm like, yes, the whole nation knows about that already. All the time. I work for it. It was a mistake. God fixed me. You know, we worked through that. And so you just have a different confidence. And I think the other thing it does is it when you work through curriculum like this, where you've learned unhealthy attachment, you learn to cope in different ways that are not good for you. And you're digging to the bottom of why you do all these things that you do. It brings the dross up to the top so you can wipe it away and see what purities you really have, just in spirit, not sexuality, and what you were really created to do. And so before I found healing, I would say, I really need to take these classes on being more patient with my kids. I really want to help in this area. Or I want to go to Bible school so I can learn how to be a disciple and be a minister. Because you hear about going out and spreading the good news, but I don't really know what that looks like. So I need to go to school to do this. And what I discovered was fighting my own healing. It's. It's so freeing. And you learn what it means to be set free by the truth, and you learn what it means to be covered in the blood and use your story as your testimony, just like the woman at the well. And you have so much joy in you that it just naturally comes out. I want to share this with people. I want to run back to the village and tell people what Jesus told me and all the healing I have in my life, and it just becomes a natural, organic ministry, rather than trying to search for something that looks good and plugging yourself into it and having shame because it's still not the right fit for you.

As you were talking, I was thinking about how important it is in our own healing to give back to people, and how important that is even in our discipleship process of as we grow in our spiritual formation, we're looking to help other people grow. And I thought of 2 Corinthians, one that talks about, as God comforts us in our struggles, we can comfort other people. And for me, I've always thought of that as like, that's our unique ministry that we've been given. Now a lot of people in this area have this ministry of helping with sexual brokenness, but it gives you a specific understanding and experience and knowledge that you can help other people in this area. And it's interesting just I'm making this connection now that if you do start groups specifically for women on sexuality, this creates ministry opportunities. And the whole point of the church is to equip the saints for the work of ministry. Ephesians there it like it's right there. That's the whole point. And this does that. This opens the floodgates for people to be able to step into ministry maybe for the first time. And what's really cool is that it's the one area they felt like disqualified them for so many years for stepping into ministry. So I feel like this is not just a discipleship process thing. This is actually opening the floodgates for ministry opportunities in your church.

Well, and the truth is that unaddressed sexual brokenness will hinder all other discipleship. And I know that sounds maybe kind of extreme, but if you thought about like, we're teaching on generosity and tithing, but you never help someone deal with their negative financial baggage and spending habits and credit card debt. You're just teaching them to give more and be more generous. You're never going to get them there because there's something in the way of that progress. And I think what we've talked about here, even just the level of shame women can be feeling, the level of I'm the only one. Like, you can work all day, all week, all month on developing their prayer habits and their tithing and their marriages. But if there's still unaddressed shame and brokenness that no one will talk about, it will hinder everything else. And so if we truly want to disciple people to become more like Christians, that has to be in every area of their life. And we have to be free to go into those places that are currently not like Christ. And I think that is the role of churches and why we try to encourage this isn't just a peripheral ministry. That's a nice thing if churches can do. It may be the very thing that unlocks women and men to go into the kind of ministry God's called them to when they get help addressing this area.

Yeah, absolutely. So, Ashley, what is covered? And this may be, I'm thinking too, someone listening. This may be the first time they ever listened to an episode. This may be be, you know, their first exposure to unraveled. So what is covered in the unraveled material kind of give some of the bigger points of what Gets covered. And then what are weekly meetings and weekly time commitments like for a woman in unraveled?

Yes. So two hours a week just like our other groups. You spend about 40 minutes ish in the weekly tools which is our more holistic self care. For those of you that were at the summit, I used my little marathon like pretending I know what that's like analogy where we just need to make sure all parts of us are being addressed and, and healthy and, and equipped so that we can focus on the things that are more under the surface. And so we, we focus on sleep, eating, our thoughts and feelings, our communication style, anything that can contribute to us having a healthier lifestyle and, and benefit us in all the digging that we're doing to try to understand who we are. And then in the workbook we're doing all the deep dives. So our attachment style, boundaries, sobriety plans, learning about our identity, learning about the way, the way we learned to love as a child and how that could impact how we love and attach as an adult. Patterns, behaviors. We have all of our basic wonderful tools, our core tools like the recovery action plan and the three circles. And so it's, it's, it's just an all around really great resource. It covers in my opinion, most aspects of what you need to have a good chance at healing and understanding yourself and being confident in knowing not just what you do, but why you do it and being able to shift the trajectory earlier on when you have control and you're not deep into your rutted thinking.

And for those reasons, we really encourage group members that decide to join the group, make this a top priority commitment, that it's not a come when you want, show up when you can. It's like we need you to commit to being at the group every time unless there's, you know, an absolute emergency family sickness, you know, unavoidable kind of things because otherwise the group doesn't get traction and the individual doesn't get traction. And so yeah, the weekly two hour meetings are important, but it's also important that they get strung together week after week after week. And so that's also the importance of why to have that introductory meeting because you can kind of talk through that with women of like here's why this has to be a high, high priority and if you're not ready for that, great. It's probably not the right time to start because if they're not going to make a commitment, the group just won't function well. So that's another thing to keep in mind. About the commitment. It's not only the weekly commitment, but saying, I'm committed to seeing this through to the end.

Yeah. And the consistency that you have with people also helps with that relationship. Those people start to feel safe, you start to be able to be real. And then one of my favorite things to highlight every time we talk about group is just that your sharing helps other people make connections in their story. That helps their healing progress. And so if you're not consistent and you're not showing up and doing your work each week, you're not the only one losing out. Like, your group members are also losing out on some potential connections that they're able to make in their own story.

So, Ashley, let's maybe back up just a little bit because we're talking about churches launching groups and how to start the first one. And maybe many people listening are like, well, my church isn't doing that, or we're a long ways away from starting our first group. What can someone do? Because many churches are still kind of stuck in the sexual brokenness as a man's issue kind of problem. How could we present unraveled groups for women to our church leadership or to a pastor that we really want their permission and blessing to start the group? So how. How could we do that?

Well, yeah, well, I think if there's a woman who's feeling called and, and ready to bring this to her pastor, starting by sharing her story, just a little bit of her story, asking for time to meet. I mean, again, for those that were at the summit, you heard Rodney say, well, I was just praying for a woman to walk through my door and offer to launch these. And so, not that it's that easy all the time, but sometimes the hang up with leadership is that they don't have anybody to lead it. And so if you're, if you're feeling called to lead a group, you can be equipped to lead a group. We have great tools through the group leader training. Training. We now have the group pathway page on our website that has all these links you can, you can go to. There's a video, there's even an email template for you to use to email your pastor or your leadership staff. And it, and it may not be the senior pastor, it may be the care pastor, it may be the women's ministry leader. So whoever it is that you think would be the one to help you launch these group, that's the person you want to be reaching out to and, and asking them if you can share some more, share a little bit about your Story set up a time to talk, avoid, you know, meeting them in the hallway to talk, but really sit down and walk through. Because I think once, once pastors and leadership understand that we have this whole holistic support, support system for them, it might be easier for them to give the blessing to, to launch the groups because we do have the training, we do have the ongoing support. I am always very, very happy to meet with a pastor or a ministry leader to answer questions, to talk about how we support the leader, to talk about how our, our stuff comes in this nice little package and, and women can take it and they can facilitate a group and they have all the tools they need. But I think hands down, always saying that this is something that you needed and this is something you went through, whether it was an online group or you found it, and that you want to be the one to help launch these group for women is a great.

Way to start, just to highlight the group pathway just for people. Again, this is something that has that email template that's basically something that you can customize and make your own. When you send to a church leader, ministry leader, a pastor in your church to help kind of start that conversation. We have an invitation video from you, Nick, on there that also includes a testimony, a powerful testimony of a young couple that's been through this recovery process. You and Michelle were on focus. This is a lot of you stuff, but it's great. You and Michelle were on focus on the families radio broadcast and a two part interview. We have links, you know, and again, Focus on the Family is a very trusted organization in the church. And so that tends to be an easier sell in some ways, which is why we've included that. And then we have a how we help brochure and a developing Purity ministry PDF. And so it really is just a good foundation to start from when trying to kickstart this stuff and start that conversation in your church. And the reason that we've set it up that way and this is all free resources is because you know your church, you know your leaders, you know where the temperature is when it comes to this topic. And so we want to kind of. I remember you saying this when we created it, Nick. It's almost like a choose your own adventure kind of style where you get to kind of decide the direction you take. But at least creating this bundle of resources for people to use.

Yeah, yeah. Depending on your context, different pieces will work better for others. The thing I always say too is to encourage skepticism because if your church has never used Pure desire or Never heard of Pure Desire. It's totally normal that they're like, who is this group and what do they believe? And so encourage skepticism. Direct them to our website. Direct them to our statement of faith. Because I believe that what we do can stand their test of. I need to check this group out and say, yeah, look into what they do. Because there's a ton of stuff they have to offer. And even having them watch. One of the things that we can set up is they could watch the first session of Sexual Integrity 101, our introductory video series. So if they have. If they have no knowledge of what Pure Desire even does, that's something you can offer your pastor and say, you could watch this whole first session and get a good feel for who they are. And then Unraveled is just a group that we're ready to start for some women who need it.

Yeah. I feel like I have to say this because we have some people from out of town who are sitting here, and Craig and Carla are from Australia. And Craig told me this story the other day. You can wave. No one's going to see you, Craig. But, hi, Craig. You're sitting over there. Great accent, by the way. Gosh, I want to do it so bad, but it'd be so disrespectful if I tried. But he told me that, you know, he found Pure Desire online. They were introduced, I believe, from that Focus on the Family interview. And which is great. That just the legs on that thing, man, it has done some work for us, which has been amazing. But he actually was think. He said that Pure Desire is this international organization, doesn't know anything about it. And so he Googled it, could find very little information about our offices. Said it looked sketchy. So he called seven churches around the area of our offices. So the skepticism that's doing homework. That's doing your homework.

That's really doing your homework.

He said he got ahold of four churches, and all four of them gave great reports about it. So those four churches, you'll have a check in the mail. We'll send that over shortly. Just kidding. But that's doing your homework. That's what you're talking about, that skepticism that don't just trust us, like, look into it. Like, we believe that this stuff can stand on its own two legs for sure. And that skepticism, like, Craig knows, as soon as you got those four, you were like, all right, I'm bought in. Let's go for it. And that can go a long way.

I will say our offices do look A little shady from the outside. Shady?

Yeah.

Google view it.

Yeah, she said shady. By the way, it doesn't sound like audio break there. Yeah, she's over zoom. She said shady. No explicit. No explicit tag on this episode. Okay, so, Ashley, with this being. Because, again, it's typically a man's issue is what is taught or at least informed, inferred from the stage or from leadership in church. So for women going through groups like this, what does group leadership look like for Unraveled groups? And is it unique, the leadership of these groups? Is it unique compared to the other groups that we offer?

It's not really that unique in how it differs. I actually find, for those of you who need to be encouraged, I actually find it's easier to lead Unraveled than Betrayal and beyond. I lead both, and I usually just do one after the other. And the thing I like about Unraveled is women are showing up because so a lot of times something is done to them, like betrayed spouses. But women are showing up because they're at this point in their life where they're ready for change. And they're saying, I need to commit to this group because there's something off in my life that I want to fix. There's something unwanted that I want to change. And that's. That's nice because now you're working with a group of ladies who aren't, you know, victims that had to come there for a group for support and healing because of something done. But you're. You're working with women who are kind of ready at the point where they're sometimes at their rock bottom and they're ready to roll up their sleeves and get in. And so I think that's encouraging. If you are considering leading a group that you're really going to be sitting with this group of ladies that are ready to do the hard work. And so, you know, just go in there as a facilitator. One thing I would say that's unique is that a lot of times, the majority of times the women are the ones at home. And so a challenge can be child care. Those are all extra things that can be huge stumbling blocks for a women. A woman. So if you have the capacity to figure out how to organize that, whether you're the leader or if you're the church staff member, to provide childcare, it will be well worth its money to provide childcare for this group. So these women can come. And you just have to get creative with that. Sometimes we would pool money together for a babysitter if it was like a private group I was doing. Other times we would do it on a night that their church had other child care. Sometimes we just had to pay the child care worker to come in at the church on a different day. And I think that's the biggest difference I've seen between any group my husband's been a part of and my group is we always are the ones that end up dealing with the childcare. And so that's the biggest thing. Other than that the guidelines are the same is pure to, you know, as seven pillars where you, you know, you have your standard group guidelines and your best practices. The group leader training course is going to work equally for all the groups. So that part is all the same.

Yeah. We'd highly recommend people use the group leader training series because it really, as we've said on other podcasts, it's kind of our soup to nuts. How do you do this from, how do you talk about groups, launch groups, run groups, troubleshoot the difficult things that come up if legal issues. It's everything you need to know. And in a lot of ways that can be the encouragement a church staff might need. If you're offering to say, hey, I'll help lead the first one. And I've walked through this eight module training session that Pure Desire has online. In fact, here's my certificate because we give a completion certificate to show you've been through it. That can really build confidence that, oh, this is a real serious effort. It's not just some gal who has a random idea to do some random unfounded groups like, no, this has been well studied. And if you as a group leader have taken the time to be trained, I think that says a ton to the church. Or if the church is willing to say, man, we'd like to help train leaders and the church is partnering with the training, that can be great too.

Yeah. Only thing I would add is just when you're in the group understanding that there's this double shame that women feel, like how you respond when someone is sharing means a lot. You know, sometimes, I know in groups I've been a part of, sometimes someone says, you know, a word describing a physical part of your body and someone chuckles or like mumbles to themselves and they're, they're not taking it seriously. I think if those things happen in group, that can actually cause more damage and more shame, especially to women because there's this double amount of shame. And so taking seriously that like we're adults, we're talking about an aspect of our Life that's very real. And I guess not to be playful or kind of flippant in the language that we use while we're meeting would just be something to consider.

So, Ashley, what would you do in a situation if a church does take all these steps and they're ready to launch their first group, and they list a gal's contact information and what if she has more women who want to start an unraveled group than there are leaders? Like, let's say she's the only leader and there's 10, 12 women ready to start. What do you recommend churches might do in a situation like that? A good problem to have have.

Yep.

But still definitely a problem.

This is such a hard question, but it's. It's so common. You know, it's. It's really. A lot of times the situation that churches are facing is that there's just not enough leaders for the people that are wanting to sign up for group. So there's a couple options in that case, and a lot of times I would want to talk with this leader. And so that's why when I. When leaders call and they say, I want to start groups, what's the first step? I give them the first step. But then I say, once you know exactly how many people you're working with, because we never know. And that's part of what holds churches back from talking about it. They're afraid they're going to do a conference. They're going to run a series, SI101 or something like that, or do a sermon series. And then all these people are going to come forward and they've opened Pandora's box and there's not enough help for them. That is like the number one thing I hear keeping people back from doing it. And so I. So I'll say, just go ahead and do it. Let's open Pandora's box, See how many people we're working with once you're there, and then call me back. And so that relieves a little bit of fear for new leaders that you can call me once you got your numbers and then we'll brainstorm from there. Because I really believe it looks a little different for everybody, depending on what kind of leaders do you have available? Are they. Do you have qualified leaders who maybe run a Celebrate recovery group or a women's ministry leader that can be equipped to lead groups? We have great leaders who don't have betrayal or unraveled type issues as part of their story, and they do a great job. So you may have other qualified leaders in your church that can start the first few groups. And then as you develop groups, you're going to identify more leaders, co leaders who then can go on and maybe take over for, for those initial leaders that help launch. Another idea would be to let all the people come up. And for some, the group time that you choose is going to be great. Others, an online option is going to be great for them. And so we have churches that say we're running a Tuesday group because that's when child care is. But this lady needs, you know, six o' clock on Friday mornings. And so then they may end up in my group and they can go through my group and sometimes they end up taking the group back to church right after they've gone through an online group. And then we've had churches that have had success with, with starting the group together, starting check in together and then going through the workbook answers separately in two small groups of five. But we just don't recommend you switch people around from group to group. That whatever group they're in, they stay in that group. So yeah, it depends on where the church is because each church has a unique scenario.

Totally.

You could have a church of 30 people or 500 people, two leaders, 10 leaders, don't know. So call me and we'll work through the options.

Personally, I think another option too, and this, I know this sounds kind of weird, but there may be a church in the area that's also running groups and it wouldn't be the worst idea to have some of your ladies go over there and join that group. And I know that a pastor might be listening to this and be like, well, what if they decide they want to go to that church and then want to leave our church? Like that's not what it's about. It's about trying to get women into this group to facilitate the healing that they need. And so I think that's something I know in my experience, I've had that happen where someone went to another church and another group and then eventually brought that group back to another church. So I think looking at it that way, that you guys are all on the same team. And what's great is we have a search feature on our website that you can search and if there are other churches around your area, that might be a good resource to use.

We've also seen scenarios where groups of 10 or 15 will come together the same night and you've got another woman in these groups, groups who's maybe equipped enough that she can kind of facilitate a check in time. So that you'll do two groups for the weekly check ins and then come together as one group with the leader taking everyone through the lesson and then break back into separate groups to make your weekly commitment to change or kind of do the wrap up stuff. And that way everyone is still participating, everyone still has time to share. But there's also the feeling like for that co leader or the other woman that is helping facilitate half of it, that she's still under your kind of guidance as the primary leader. So you can do some things like that where two groups are kind of meeting as one but on the same night so that everyone still has support. Yeah.

So as groups gain momentum, there can be, and we see this often organically, there's just more interest in groups. With this in mind, how many times per year do we recommend that churches should start unraveled groups?

52.

Once a week.

Once per week? No, I mean there's no like magic number. But if you, you are growing and you're having more and more groups, I would strongly encourage you not to start them all in September and end in June, which a lot of small groups do because this is recovery type work. And so we want a woman to be able to call in January and not have to tell her, oh, you have nine months until the next group starts. And so as you grow, if you can stagger them so that it's only a month or two away from a woman being able to join a group group, that's ideal. And then at that same time you can be using something that's more of like an open share on ramp like sexual integrity 101 that could be going so they have a place to plug in for women and they can get plugged in right away. And then they only have, you know, X amount of weeks until the next group starts. We don't want it to be too long. If it's going to be too long for a woman to join group, then they should really be encouraged, like Trevor said, to look at another church in the area or come to one of the online groups because if they're ready to start group, we don't want them waiting too long. So I mean in my perfect world there would always be a group starting within a month of a woman calling. But and that does happen in some of the churches that have bigger groups going. We have one locally here where I live that has a really thriving pure desire ministry and there's always something for women to plug into which is nice.

Well, and that's where it's important to really make sure the groups are prevalent and can be seen on the website. Now, who's in the group and maybe even when they meet should be confidential so that people in the group groups feel that level of privacy. But the fact that you have groups as a church needs to be very, very seen. And I think that's a pitfall churches can have if they're only starting them once a year. It's like they talk about group leading up September, and then that group launches, and then it disappears for nine months. And you wouldn't even know that church has a group because it's nowhere to be found. And even if right now you only have one group starting, still have that information present on the website, because if you're wording it well, that's the place people in your church are going to go to find information. They're going to be like, well, does our church have anything for that? And they google your church and they look up women's ministry. And if. If you have just a nice little paragraph or page that says, we have a very active ministry for women who are dealing with unwanted sexual behaviors or past patterns in their life and want help, here's the number to contact.

Yeah.

And then throughout the year, you start to have a pipeline of women that will reach out, because when they're ready for group may not coincide with when your next group is meeting. But that's where having the information really prevalent, you can start to collect those women and then, as Ashley said, run them through Sexual Integrity 101, or start with a smaller group of women doing a book study until the next group can begin. And just over time, I think you'll see that you can have multiple groups that are starting at different points during the year.

Another practical consideration with that too, is that a lot of churches, in my experience, the churches that I've been a part of will have this big push on one weekend and think that that's enough as far as announcing. But it's like at some point, half your congregation isn't there for a Sunday. Like, we've been in ministry before.

People come half the time. And that was before COVID Before COVID like, yeah.

And so I think that it's important to have the consistency of announcing something from the front because, like, no offense to my church, I think they have a great website. I'm never on their website, like, but I go to services. And so what you say up front is what gets highlighted for me. They send out an E news and I've been publicly shamed actually from the stage for not reading the E News email. But. But whatever, it's fine. I'll get over it. But I think it is important to keep that consistency.

I don't read your emails either, Trevor.

Wow. Some trauma we're gonna have to work through with you guys, man.

I didn't have anything for my therapist on Monday, but now I do. Thank you.

He's making a list.

But Trevor, you guys make good points because the other thing I would say is don't tuck this stuff away in the counseling resources. There's been many churches I've worked with where this falls under their counseling care and a lot of women I, they're not at the point where they think they need counseling. So you're trying to reach the women who are just sitting in the pew wondering why they keep doing what they're doing. They don't feel that their issue is a counseling worthy issue. And so you're missing a lot of women by tucking them away in the counseling resources.

Yep, good point.

Yep.

So Ashley, we know that recovery is seen as being a two to five year process for someone to really reach that place of full health and recovery unraveled. Being about an eight or nine month group, what is, what do the next steps look like for a woman who has maybe completed unraveled and is wondering what now?

So it could. Ideally it would be that they've gained so much traction and the group that they were part of was so wonderful and supportive and eye opening and gave them tools they need that they're ready to go share it with somebody else and continue their healing through co leading or leading the next group, whether that's in their church or online that we want them to pass on and do for other women what somebody did for them. Because you get a layer of healing out of leading others that you absolutely cannot get by just being a group member. I can't emphasize that enough and I don't think people really believe you until they do it. Yeah, but leading other people through this curriculum enhances your healing and your own awareness and your own drive to keep going. I would have, I would have liked like quit so many times if I didn't have other women to keep me going in that second, third, fourth year where you think you're okay and fine. For other women, it might be, they might need counseling. This might have been the on ramp to say, you know what, I've got some other things here or some things that haven't quite been worked out and I need to have my next step Be something more one on one with a clinical, with a clinician, or maybe it's a deep issue that group really doesn't touch on Y For other people, it could be betrayal and Beyond. I have women that come out of Unraveled and because they're there for their issues, but then they realize there was a huge betrayal or is a current betrayal that they need to address. And maybe that's playing into why they're acting out the way that they're acting out. And so Betrayal and Beyond is a very realistic next step for women as well. And then I've had women say, I'm not ready to commit to leading Unraveled. But Sexual Integrity 101 is a great next step for me because it's eight weeks. There's a video series, I can share my testimony, but there's not a lot of. There's not as much commitment there. And so just going into something next is the biggest thing that you cannot be done after this. It's just, you just can't be done. So in some way or another, you have to continue on your healing. And it's just like you guys said before, like, choose your own ending, like which ones, which one's the good fit for you?

Yeah. And that because. And I'm just going to echo exactly what you said. It's just that you keep doing something. If you go through Unraveled again, if you lead a group, if you go through group leader training 101, you start counseling, whatever it is. It's just that the recovery work doesn't stop. And you know something, and I'll just, I'll bring it up because it connects. But in my breakout session at the summit that was, I explored that this first year is really the idea of focusing on your center circle and your middle circle with identifying relapse and developing your guardrails. And then after that, after year one is you're really looking out towards your outer circle of the three circles, which is the healthy habits that keep you in restoration, that keep you in recovery, that keep you in health. And so really that's the shift is looking for what are things that help me be a better version of myself? What is better self care? What does it look like to care for myself mentally, emotionally, physically, physically, spiritually, sexually? So looking at it holistically, so whatever you're doing, you just want something that's going to push you deeper into that.

Yeah, yeah. As we say often, we're not here to stop a behavior. We're here to change the way you do life. And so if you look at life after that first group and see there are ways that I can live out my healthy three circles, that I can stay in authentic, open, humble relationships, that I can have deep connections with other women. If a gal is seeing that opportunity and it's not in another unraveled group, but she sees how all these changes will continue to happen, then that's what you're looking for. Now, I think many women and then men on the men's side feel like, well, I don't think I'm going to keep doing these things unless I'm still in a group for a while. And so that's normal to need another round or to help lead a group. And one other resource that we have seen a lot of churches use is the genesis process that implements a lot of similar brain tools, faith components from Michael Dye, that churches have been able to kind of do a back and forth that both for men and women, women do unraveled and then can do a time through the genesis process and then come back and lead unraveled because they've had more time. And we've seen the same with the men on the seven Pillars site. So I think there are a lot of options. But it's just like you said, Trevor, really asking the question, how can I best live out my health and then taking that next step.

Yeah, for sure. So, Ashley, how do we handle the situation where maybe we have a pastor on staff or a church leader and she has her own struggle, she has her own healing that she needs to pursue? Is it appropriate for her to be a part of, maybe even lead unravel groups in her church? Or does she need to look for groups maybe somewhere else?

I think it's best to not be leading a group if they have their own struggles, but just be part of a group. A lot of pastors, I would say most pastors, if they're actively struggling, are going to feel more comfortable in another group, whether it's an online group with us or another group in another city. Because for me, it feel like going through a group with my children, you know, like you're trying to shepherd these people and also work through your stuff. But I will say, if pastors are in a certain place, you know, like we hear Pastor Rodney was my pastor, Rodney Wright, and he had dealt with the behaviors and the sobriety years prior, but he still had a lot of shame. And so he found leading a group at our church that my husband was a part of really healing for him because he was starting to open up to people in his own community about something he had addressed and conquered many years ago, but still had shame. And he says it was the group that broke the shame. I've led pastors wives groups at my church and they were actually really successful, but I was the leader. They were still just the group member. And so I would avoid leading a group. And then if you do put a group together, it's. It can be safer to be part of a pastor's wives group. So in my group, it was all pastors wives or ministry leaders that were in my group. So go to another church, go online. Definitely don't lead it. Unless like with Rodney, your years past, you know, and into your sobriety, and you just want to work through opening up to your own community. That's a great baby step. Because you heard Nick that after he found healing, he opened up to his church on stage and it was very healing for him. Maybe a pastor's not ready for that stuff. Maybe. Maybe it is just leading a group where it's that baby step. And that worked for Rodney really well. And then he was able to go on stage and share.

Yeah. The question you want to ask for, you know, if you're a female who's on staff at a church, is to say, can I lead this group and be authentic and real, or will I have my leader hat on, my pastor hat, on my staff hat and feel like I can't share that, I can't be real about that. That because I'm the leader or the staff member. Because if you're feeling that the group's not going to be as effective, you're not going to be real to the point you need for transformation. I think there are so not to disagree with Ashley. I think there are some scenarios with female staff members, female pastors who would feel like, no, the group I'm thinking of gathering with, there is nothing I would hold back. I have the freedom with this group of women. I could be as real with them as a group of strangers. And so if they truly feel that I'm not going to be wearing my pastor or leader hat and hide behind it, then it can work. But I think that's what we're really looking at is if in any way you're gonna put on a little bit of a protective mask because, well, that can't share that, then it defeats the whole purpose of you doing group. So that's why what Ashley said, go wherever that is to get your healing. And then as God brings healing into your life, it may Be easier to bring back to your church.

So what I'm hearing is depends is basically the answer.

Every scenario is different. Every group is different.

But to be aware, that's the biggest thing. As a leader, you need to be aware because it's not just, are you comfortable in group, But I know for me, when I first started groups, I was a youth pastor, and so I wasn't like the top leader or anything like that. So there wasn't that dynamic in group. But if you're lead, if you're on the leadership team and you're a woman leading group, some of your group members may hold back as well. You have to consider that, like, I don't really know if I want my pastor to know this stuff about me. And so it's not just a consideration of my own healing. It's also, am I holding people back back by leading this group or being a part of this group? Which I think makes sense. I think people can wrap their heads around that.

Yeah, yeah. And I would say get, you know, get the workbook and look through it. You know, as Nick saying, ask yourself these questions, get to some of those pages and say, can I share this honestly and vulnerability, because maybe you think you can. And then you look at chapter five and you're like, nevermind, private group, you know, so just really.

Yeah, great point.

Yeah. It just depends.

Yeah. Well, Ashley, this has been awesome. Great insight. Appreciate your openness for people to reach out to you that have more questions. But as we wrap up today, what would you leave as kind of some final tips for running effective, unraveled groups in our churches?

I would say this is always like that question where you feel like you have to have this really poetic, like, beach acceptance, you know, statement. I would just say that there is a starting place. I think I say that with every group episode. We do that wherever you're at, there is a starting place. And so it may be if you're feeling called to lead, it may be the group leader training. It may be just having a phone call or a zoom appointment to ask questions and learn more. I can't tell you the number of women that I talk to that say, I was feeling so hesitant and I wasn't even sure if I wanted to lead. But now that I'm talking to you and I know I can call you at the next phase to get the next step, I feel so much more confident. And so there is a step, and it may just be calling to. To have a discussion to see if that feels like it's the Right step for you. It may be talking to your pastor and. And going to that group pathway page and. And looking at the options and saying, is. Is one of these fitting for my situation and can I take the next step with my church to bring this here? So just take a next step and know that you have support in doing that. And then just follow the model, follow the book, and follow the guidelines and the best practices, and you should do okay. And reach out if you get to a place where you need help.

Yeah. I think with this specific type of group, we need to just stay really, really realistic that you may have two women who start in your first group, and that's it. And it's okay that it organically grows over time. It's not something that. Especially in this. Like, if you build it, they will come. It's like, well, maybe not the first time. You know, I think letting. Giving yourself grace and understanding that this is something that will grow over time if you offer it, but being discouraged that maybe only one lady stepped forward, and it's like, you know what? I guess we can't really start this process, so you just shut it down completely. I think that that is a no. No. I think we need to trust that there are women in our churches who struggle with this area and need these groups and that we need to be committed to them, even though we may not get the results we want right away. And we say this a lot about our groups, but especially this one. This is not an area that women feel super confident to say, hey, I have a problem. I need help. And so we need to just play the long game and allow the time and space and the Lord to really bring the growth in the group, because he will. If you offer it, God will bless that.

Yeah. Yeah. I think my final tip. I would speak directly to the men who are listening. First of all, thank you for listening to a whole podcast on women's groups. That says a lot. But I would just say to you, if the stats are true, that only 7% of churches have a plan to help people who are struggling with pornography. Most of those churches that do have a plan or a plan for men. So the churches that have a plan for women who are struggling with unwanted sexual behavior, pornography is probably less than 1%. It's probably like 0.7%. What could you do as a man in your church to be an advocate for women's groups? Because it's one thing for women to be saying, well, women struggle, too, and we need a group for women, and it's Another thing, if men in the church say, you know, women struggle too, and our church needs to do something to help women, that just goes a long way towards creating the kind of environment where those groups can start, they can start well, and they can change culture. Because again, back to some of our initial questions. Now it's not just a men's problem, it's a people problem. There's stuff for men, there's stuff for women. And so I think we need to step forward as men and be a part of that and not just be content that, well, we're doing something for the men, we're good to go. If. And, well, we'll let the women figure it out themselves. You know, good luck. You know, I hope something happens like, well, no, how could I help make it happen? And if I'm a leader or a pastor, how could I make sure we provide childcare for that? How could I provide funds so that those who can't afford the childcare or the workbook, we cover it for? Like, what could we do to set up a church system that makes all the hurdles, as many as we can, makes those hurdles go away? Because to start group for a woman or for a man who's struggling with these kind of behaviors, the hurdles feel like they're 10ft tall. And anything we can do to bring them down to a manageable height so that women can say, you know what? I think I'm going to try that. I think that's something we need to do. So thanks again, men, for listening and do what you can to open those doors for the women in your church.

Yeah. And it just. We know this is true. We see it. Even statistically, the number of young women who are consuming pornography is the highest growing rate right now in the world. And. And women struggle, too. It's very clear. I don't think that there's like, we need to take the goggles off when you take the blinders off. It's very clear. And so it's important to offer these because it communicates that you care about your people holistically and ultimately you can run effective groups. We see this done all over the world, that you can run effective, unraveled groups and that women are stepping into it and experiencing healing and they're finding ways to manage love, sex, and relationships in the healthiest of ways. So we hope that this conversation, this episode, was helpful as you think through how to not just start them, but maintain unravel groups over time. And Ashley, you're a pro at leading these groups. You are a contributor to the resource, and so we just appreciate your time and energy. Thank you.

Yeah, thanks for having me.

And wherever you're at on your journey, Pure Desire is here to help create a roadmap for your healing. If you or someone you know is impacted by sexual brokenness or betrayal trauma, go to PureDesire.org and begin the healing journey today. If this podcast is helpful on your journey, please share it with others. Make sure to subscribe to the podcast, drop us a review. It helps others find it, and each week we're putting out new content to help you on the road to healing and freedom. And lastly, never stop being healthy.