275 - Running Effective Groups: Betrayal & Beyond

Welcome to the Pure Desire podcast, helping you take back your life from unwanted sexual behavior and betrayal trauma. What is up, people? I'm your host, Trevor Windsor, and you're listening to episode 275 of the Pure Desire podcast. Here joining me as always, is my co host, Nick Stumbo.

Your quest stands on the edge of a knife. Stray but a little and it will fail.

No idea. Not a single clue.

Oh, man, it's a movie quote. Actually, more than a movie quote. It's a book reference. Favorite movie for me.

Do you know thank you for publicly shaming me? I don't know.

Well, maybe it's a little role reversal. From what I've heard from other people.

That's true.

That is from the Lord of the Rings. That is the elf queen Galadriel telling the quest of the Fellowship of the Rings that they're in a precarious place.

Yeah, I deserve the public shaming for that. But in my def. I will only defend myself this way by saying that all of those movies are three hours plus. And to not remember a line from almost 10 hours of content.

Well, you, like, just haven't watched them enough.

It's true. That is true. That is true.

I just don't have three kids. Like, I've got the extended editions in the box set, and I treat them kind of like the Holy Grail. Like, if they want to watch one, they're in a special place in my room.

Daddy handles.

Yeah. I bring them off the shelf. It's like this ceremony. Oh, we're opening one up.

You have, like, a sound machine that when you pick it up, that makes the.

Yeah. And like a light comes on. I should work on that. That's a great idea.

Yeah, that's good. The things that your kids will remember. Okay, so tie it in, because today we had our content manager, Heather Kolb on and the heavy contributor to our new Betrayal and Beyond that, we have now updated and new, which is up for pre order. We had her on to talk about this resource and really how to run effective Betrayal and Beyond groups.

Yeah. And I was, you know, thinking about for a woman or for a man in that regard, who is in a place of betrayal, trauma, wondering what they did wrong, what's going on in their marriage. Just so many emotions and things they're dealing with.

It.

It feels like their. Their life is in that precarious place. They're on the edge of a knife. They don't know which way to turn.

Yeah.

And I think the Betrayal and Beyond groups create a safe spot where they can really lean into healing. And the other thing that made me think of it is that's from the Lord of the Rings. And right now my boys and I are watching the Rings of Power on Amazon. And as you may know, they're being kind of poorly reviewed by a lot of people. And as I've kind of looked into it, I'm enjoying them a lot. But I think what people feel is it's different. It's not the Lord of the Rings. It's not the same story, it's not the same characters. It's not meant to be one movie or a set of movies. It's a series that's, from what I can tell, gonna be pretty lengthy. Cause there is kind of a really slower pacing to it.

Ye.

And so because of that, it's getting a lot of negative reviews. And I think one of the things we talk about in this episode is this is a new version of Betrayal and Beyond. And it's different, it's not the same. But what we feel is really is a better pacing for women in betrayal recovery, helping them address issues sooner that really need to be addressed for their own sense of well being, for what's going on in their brain and their body. And we talk about that quite a bit today. So, um, I'm not trying to weigh in on whether Lord of the Rings or Rings of Power is better, but just to emphasize that new material for some that were in love with the old, yep, it feels different totally. But we really see value and good in having a little bit of a different arrangement. And we're excited for women to hear about it today from Heather.

Absolutely, absolutely. Before we get to that conversation, a few things. Nick. First, we talk about this every once in a while. We just want people to continue to be exposed to this fact that we have something called Team 58 here at Pure Desire. Why don't you tell people about this team?

Yeah. For a long, long time. Our founder, Ted Roberts, talked about that we're to pay forward our healing. That really one of the ways that we continue to heal is to help others. And so one of the ways that people can do that with Pure Desire is through our monthly donor program, which is rooted in the scripture passage Isaiah chapter 58, where God promises the Israelites that if they'll honor him in the way they were fasting, that their salvation would come quickly. It would break forth like the dawn, and that some of them would be known as the rebuilder of walls and the restorer of homes. And we really took that concept that my healing as it breaks forth in my life, I can be a part of rebuilding and restoring the lives and marriages of others. And through a financial contribution, you're on that team with us. You're opening the doors for us to take on bigger projects, things that otherwise we cannot do. And it truly is a team. We do a lot to try to emphasize that, to send some team swag. And we'd just be honored. For anyone listening to step forward and say, you know what, I want to be a part of seeing others healed because of what's happened in my life. And if that's you, you're a Team 58 member. Just make it official.

That's right. So if you want to join team 58, go to PureDesire.org give a few more things, subscribe to the podcast. We're on all the major platforms. You can follow us on social media. And then also know that this full episode will be up on YouTube. And with that, here is our time with Heather Kolb on week four of our Running Effective Groups series. Today we talk about running effective Betrayal and Beyond groups. Heather, welcome back. Thanks for being here.

Thank you for having me back.

We are in week four of our Running Effective Groups series. Today we're looking specifically at Betrayal and Beyond, and we'll get into it a little bit. Why we've done this one last just with some things that are coming here at Pure Desire. We wanted to be strategic in that. But let's just jump in. For many people in churches, especially men who struggle with the shame of their sexual brokenness, I think churches tend to know that that's maybe more of a thing. And I think that that's maybe the problem that's mostly on top of people's minds. But alongside these men are women who are married to them. And so if these men are feeling shame about their sexual brokenness, how much more might a woman be struggling with the shame of this is my reality, this is who I marry. This is what's going on. How can we as churches raise awareness of the impact of sexual betrayal and the trauma that that causes? And then how can we give women courage to really step out and admit this is what's going on and then also pursue healing? Lots of questions in there, but your thoughts?

Yeah, and this is a great question because I think that historically there's been some confusion about really how impactful this is to partners and really how much it's hurting them. Not just you mentioned the shame or the emotional piece of it, but even just physiologically what happens to women when they experience betrayal. And I think that recent research has done a lot to support that. There are some serious things happening with women physically in their brain, the way that they are responding to what's happening in their environment. And I think that for churches specifically, just raising that awareness that we understand this, this is real, we hear you, really helps women to come forward and recognize that this is not something that I have to do on my own, Because I think that even in the church, that's been something that women feel, that everything that's happening in my marriage is ours. We don't talk about it, we don't tell anybody else. And then when the husband goes to get help, it's like, oh, that's great. He's getting help for his brokenness. We're supporting him. But yet the women are still left on the sidelines thinking that, okay, they're going to fix him and then our marriage is going to be fine. When they're at the same time carrying all of this stress and anxiety and not even knowing why, they keep thinking back to the day of discovery or disclosure and why they can't seem to move forward in their healing, and they seem to just be spinning in motion. And I think that that talks a lot about the physiology of what's happening with women when they experience betrayal.

Yeah, you mentioned the word shame, Trevor. And I think we're running up against a paradigm that still exists in a lot of churches that we know to be untrue. But the paradigm is that if a man is in a good marriage with a wife who is sexually responsive to meeting his needs, he won't stray. And because of that paradigm, if a man is found to be dealing with pornography or affairs or other unwanted sexual issues, there is still, I think, a church perspective or maybe even an internal voice that says this is in some way for that. For that wife or that betrayed spouse, that voice that says, this is somehow my fault. And I think it's interesting to note that really the enemy of our souls, I think, plagues men and women with the same thought pattern that if I was just enough, if I was just good enough. So for the one who's struggling, they feel like, well, if I was just good enough, holy enough, whatever, enough, then I wouldn't struggle with these things. And the betrayed spouse feels like, well, if I was just whatever, enough for my spouse, they wouldn't need these things. And really, we know there's just not truth to that, because the way that we get hooked into patterns of sin has nothing to do with the other person, it's all about the patterns we've learned. The way those chemicals create pleasure, and we use that to escape or medicate pain. And it's very disconnected from the spouse causing it, although the spouse is the one who's deeply or most impacted by it. And so I think when we're talking about running effective groups for betrayed spouses, there are some starting places like that where we have to really confront those paradigms to say there is no woman or man in that same sense who's good enough to fix their partner. And we wouldn't do that with other struggles. Like, well, if you would only be better with money, then I wouldn't overspend. Yeah, we'd look at someone like that and go, well, that's ridiculous. You're the one spending the money. Don't blame it on your spouse. And yet somehow, in this area of sexual intimacy in the marriage, we've perpetuated some of those lies. And so I think running these effective groups for women really helps create that new paradigm that says no. His or her struggles are what they need to face and confront, but it's deeply impacting you. And let's figure out how we can move you to a healthy, safe place where you can work on your own healing.

Yeah, I think this is something that we, as an organization, would encourage churches to continue to educate themselves on the impact of trauma on both those who struggle with sexual brokenness, those who are impacted by betrayal, trauma, and really any other area of struggle. I think being informed is really helpful. And the beauty of understanding. You know, I think of Bessel Van der Kolk's book the Body Keeps the Score, which is, if you have not read that book, it is big and it is dense, but it is amazing. And it really shows you the physical manifestations that trauma has on our bodies. And really, it's something that gets in the way in a lot of ways of our growth, spiritually, physically, emotionally, mentally, all of that. And so I think that's something that churches can do to raise awareness and also help give courage to those in their church to step out and ask for help by being educated on trauma and the impact that it has on their people. Because I know for me, in church, as I grew up, I did not hear the word trauma ever. I was taught what the Bible says, which we're never going to stray from that. But also God's the one who created our bodies to respond the way that it does when we experience trauma. And so to assume just because the word trauma isn't in the Bible. It's somehow not some topic we should talk about and talk about from the front of stage at our big gatherings, I think is silly. And so I think that that's definitely one of the best ways you can is just become more educated.

So, Heather, if a group or church is looking to launch betrayal and beyond groups, how can they create safety for women when they're starting one of those groups for the first time?

This is a good question, because I think that when we look at safety, it really is, I don't know, has a foundation of a person feeling protected from risk or danger or anything that could potentially harm them. And so specifically in a church building, it's nice if they can have their BNB groups that are away from distraction, away from other people that could hear possibly what is being discussed. Also, just not having them next to, like, where childcare is being provided, you know, just really having an environment that feels calm and secure and so that people are willing to share that they feel comfortable sharing. And I think that that is also part of this safe environment, is that for a lot of women who initially join a BNB group, their world has been shattered by something that they don't even understand. And so. And trust has been broken in a way that they've never experienced. And so to have them show up to group and be like, okay, so what did you write for this answer? What did you. You know, I think that that makes a person feel unsafe, but just allowing people to share where they're at and share if they want to, and not giving advice, you know, and we have all of this in the group guidelines, and yet sometimes we feel like, well, you're in the group, and I see on your paper that you've written all these answers, but yet you're not saying anything out loud. And I think that that's okay. I think that just giving women the time and space to become comfortable with the group, that they start to feel safe sharing, I think that all of that takes a little bit of time and we should just let that happen. Does that make sense?

Yeah.

Another way, you know, and I'm thinking about safety again, even with this. For women from this stage, if you see someone on stage who has your same experience or looks like you or, you know, obviously is the same gender and has had the same experience, that can go a long way for creating safety. That, okay, this is a church where it's okay to have this story. And I'm not alone, because that is a huge part of safety is if you Feel like you're alone. It doesn't feel safe because there's risks in every direction or there's danger. And so I think that that's one way. But another thing, to your point, and I've heard this Heather a number of times, even from friends whose spouse is struggling with something, is that protection, like I have to protect their reputation, and somehow me sharing my experience, my trauma that I've experienced because I'm married to this person is somehow bashing them or somehow like non Christian or unlike Jesus to do that. I think that we need to make sure that we're communicating from the front and in all of our communications. This is not a for bnb. It's not a let's bash our husbands group. It's not a come and just commiserate around how much I dislike my spouse right now. It is a come and share your story and share your experience and make sense of it. And so thinking through just the language that we use to communicate these groups can maybe help invite women into that and feel safe that this is an okay place to say something that my husband's done that's really hurt me and that that's okay. That doesn't make you a bad Christian or a bad wife.

Yeah. I think if we can normalize healing, I mean, there's throughout the New Testament, Jesus came to heal, to bind up the brokenhearted and the wounded and the sick and the lame. And if we can just ground these groups in Scripture, in that idea that we all need healing. And if you've suffered betrayal in a relationship, that's a deep kind of wounding and healing is what Christ has for you. And we can use scriptures like Galatians 6 to bear 1 another's burdens. That's what the group is about. So that women feel like if I opt into this group, I'm not going off into some basement, closet, dark corner group that they don't want me in. I'm actually taking a step that my church is encouraging, is celebrating me to be a part of, for my health, for my growth, for my healing in Christ. And that mindset, I think can just really make a difference for women entering the group. And I would also say, as we've said about so many of these groups, it needs to be anonymous. Women need to have that opportunity to join anonymously. You need to promote that. You have groups and make it public. There are groups and make it clear who to reach out to or what that confidential, safe next step is. But where the groups meet, when the groups meet and who is in the groups really should not be in the publications of your church because that does create. It doesn't feel as safe or anonymous. Because if everybody knows Tuesday nights at 7pm in the Fellowship room is the women's betrayal study, then it's like there's kind of this awareness of who's at the church on Tuesday nights and why. And boy, I didn't know their husband. And yeah, maybe if a woman is in year, you know, two or three, she would not care. But for a gal. And it's similar for, I think men who are acknowledging addiction if they're in week one or two, this is maybe the hardest step they've ever taken. It maybe feels like the biggest jump. Like, I don't want to do this, I don't want to have to do it, I don't want to be known for it, but I'm going to go. And so just making that as safe as possible by making sure the group is anonymous.

Yep, absolutely. And I mean, it's one of those things where this group is unique in who it helps and how it helps. But as far as our approach to creating safety, it falls in line with so many of our other groups. Like, it's just the same kind of guidelines, the same kind of messaging. We're just going to take that same approach. And that in some ways for churches and actually makes this more doable, that it doesn't have to have always this unique spin or it has to be done in a super specific way to just this group. It can be something that's more general to pure desire guidelines.

So for many churches, and maybe for many women in general, healing from betrayal trauma doesn't really fit into their typical model of discipleship. So why is this an issue? And why would we say that healing from betrayal trauma really is central to discipleship and someone growing in their faith?

So I thought that this was an interesting question because so often in the church it's all about, we're Christians, we're saved, we've been commanded to go and spread the gospel. And yet then you hear about all of these situations that happen because people are not dealing with their sexual brokenness and they're not dealing with the trauma and they're not dealing with things first. Which as a Christian, I know that God can use everyone and he does, and he can use anyone where they're at. And yet at the same time, it just seems to make sense to me that why wouldn't you step out of that for a little while and focus on your own Healing and your own health. Because I think that that right there contributes more to discipleship than anything else. Because I think that as we grow in our relationship with God and others, that we mature in these ways and we heal in ways that not only benefit us, but it benefits others. And I think that that is the core of what we're trying to do with these groups, and especially when it comes to healing our trauma. Because one thing that we do know for sure about trauma is that it affects our brain, it affects our body, it affects our behaviors. And if we don't deal with things that are kind of below the surface, if I can use that language, they're going to show up. And we don't want them to show up in these places where it's going to cause far more harm than good. And I think that that happens when we push the idea of what it's supposed to look like for Christians, that you're supposed to go out and spread the gospel instead of saying, you know what, that's great, and we all do that, but let's work on our own healing first so that then we can be far more effective in really displaying what God has done in our life and through our healing. That, to me, just makes sense. But I know that it's not a common model.

No, I think of the illustration we've used before when it comes to betrayal, like the car accident. So the betrayed spouse is the passenger that's in the car. And in that illustration, the addict is the one driving the car, and they get into this massive car accident. Both are injured, both need healing, both need recovery from what's happened. And again, the typical model is you just look at who is driving, you know, and I've heard you use this illustration, Nick, and maybe you can flesh it out in a minute. But I think for this, if a woman is injured in this, like, there's going to be physical limitations on it that she's going to need to heal, she's going to need to do recovery work. She's going to need physical therapy in order to function properly again. And I think the same is exactly true when it comes to spirituality, that betrayal, trauma. In our relationship with the Lord, we are wounded. And maybe it's not a wounding with our relationship with the Lord, but it's something that impacts our relationship with Him. And to think that, you know, this woman, if she doesn't do any physical therapy or has the surgery she need, is going to actually thrive physically for the rest of her life is silly. And I think the same thing is true with this, I think we have to understand that this is going to be a hindrance or a hurdle. And I'm just seeing like a betrayed partner having to crawl over the hurdle to take that next step in their spiritual development or formation. So I think if we can look at it that way, it helps us understand that this is stuff that can absolutely get in the way of our relationship with the Lord and our spiritual growth.

Yeah. Our co founder, Diane Roberts has been using that illustration for decades, that ignoring betrayal trauma is like someone calling for an ambulance. And the ambulance comes and it takes away the person who made the phone call, leaving the one that just got ran over, lying in the street bleeding. And that's a graphic illustration, but it's what we're talking about, that if, if you've experienced that betrayal, you're emotionally, relationally bleeding in a lot of ways and, and experiencing tremendous pain. And we need to offer help. I mean, I, I see it as a way that the church cares for its members. If someone is hurt and wounded, we help bind them up and heal them so that they can follow Christ more effectively and fully. And to me, I also think of, in terms of discipleship. This is just one of the already not yet kind of situations of the church. And our faith is full of these ideas that I am already whole in Christ and yet I also know that my reality is I'm not yet whole in Christ. I've got work to. I'm being sanctified and made like Christ, even though I already know I'm whole in Christ. And so for a betrayed spouse, maybe they know that forgiveness is part of following Christ and they're going to need to forgive their spouse at some point. But churches can tend to be like, well, you just need to forgive and move on because we're called to forgive. It's like, I already know there's the already part of forgiveness, but the not yet of I actually have to also get my heart to a place that, that forgiveness is meaningful and real. And so I think it's just a way that we acknowledge, yes, we've been made whole in Christ in our relationships as Christian men and women. We've been united in Christ, and yet there's a whole lot of not yet situations that in this life we're working towards what we've already been given. And so I think the betrayal and beyond groups are just giving women space to work out those places that they're not yet whole, and it's because of something that happened to them. So it just Makes sense to me that we would want to help in any area where people feel wounded and unable to really pursue Christ because of stuff that happened to them. And why wouldn't we do that in this area as well?

Exactly. Yep. Okay. So as I alluded to it toward the beginning, there's a reason why we're doing this one last in the series, and it's because we are getting closer and closer to a new updated Betrayal and Beyond resource coming out. And with that, you know, some of our listeners are very familiar with the older versions of Betrayal and Beyond. So what is new in this version? What is the material cover? Weekly meetings, time commitments, what does all that look like as well?

So the time commitment is generally the same. So it's set up like all pure desire groups that you're going to meet, weekly two hour meeting, you're going to have homework, there's going to be a journal. So all of those are the same. The amount of weeks is a little bit less. So this new version is 30 weeks instead of 36 weeks. Even though with the way that it hits holidays, you still might have a few extra weeks, but it's a little bit shorter in the content. And then a lot of it follows the partner trauma model, which then just the arrangement of how partners deal with what they're going through has changed. And so we start with just really establishing safety and even explaining safety, because a lot of times we naturally think that I need to feel safe in my environment, I need to feel safe in my home, but also, are you feeling safe in your relationship and are you feeling financially safe and are you feeling spiritually safe? And so we really take some time to explain what safety looks like and then have women go through and identify those different areas. And then we look more at emotional health. And we've talked about this, about how for partners, when discovery or disclosure happens, their brain just goes into survival mode. And in a lot of ways they describe it as it goes offline, but really what's happening is that your brain is responding to a perceived danger and it's going to continue to respond to that perceived danger because it was designed to keep you safe and something right now is not safe in your environment. And that, I mean, I would love to think that that's not a long process. But for a lot of women, it's a long process because their husband, who they totally trusted and thought was their safe person, has hurt them. And so every time that they walk in the room, then the partner's brain is just an alarm, is going off like danger, danger, danger, danger. And so it really is just that emotional stability that we work on for quite a while, actually, of just being able to help women understand when this is happening. When you're feeling this way, this is what's happening in your brain and body. And so to calm yourself or to bring yourself back to a stable place, what can we do? How can we help? And then, of course, we spend a lot of time on boundaries, of setting boundaries and helping women understand that boundaries are for me, they're for us, so that we feel safe and that boundaries will impact our husband, but they're not meant for our husband. They're not to say, well, you can't do this, and you can't do this, and you can't do this. It's more about for me to feel safe, I need for you to do this, or for me to feel safe. And it's kind of helping them to understand that language. And then, of course, there is some psychoeducation, because we found that it does benefit partners at some point to help them understand why their husband is the way that he is. What happened to him? Why does he pursue addictive behaviors? What's. What's happened to him? What's gonna happen with his recovery? What does that look like?

Not in a way that minimizes what he's done, but in a way to just bring information and give you a fuller picture of what's happening.

Right. Because we want for partners to be informed, and it benefits them to have this information. And I'm glad that you brought that up, Trevor, because a lot of times in explaining the behavior, partners will feel like, well, now you're justifying. Now you're minimizing the pain that he's caused.

And.

And that's not the intent at all. It's for the partner so that you have the information that you need to make decisions for your future. And that's really an important piece of this new curriculum.

Yeah, I think it's good to remember that when a woman is in trauma and her brain is in that alert system and always on. I think we just have seen deeper healing is going to be difficult to ever achieve because it's going through this grid of alert and danger and so helping her be at that place that she can be. I guess maybe the way I describe it is like to be at peace. And I don't mean a way that everything's fixed and better, but like, within herself, knowing I'm going to be okay here. Steps I can take for my healing and being able to do that whether her spouse is on the same road or not. Because that's one of the uniquenesses we see is that the women who come into Betrayal and Beyond groups are in such totally different places that some do thankfully have spouses that are all in on their own healing, are working hard to change their behaviors and understand what it's done to their wife. And yet there are other women who come whose husbands have left or are totally uninterested in healing. And I think what we've seen is that actually the kind of stability that their brain and their soul needs with things like boundaries and understanding the trauma is actually very, very similar. And so whether a woman ends up in a marriage that is kind of both walking together in healing or a marriage that is very disjointed, the experience for her of safety and having a plan and knowing how to remain connected to Christ and others can, I think, be very similar. And I think that's more the goal of this material, where I think in the previous edition, it was more maybe rooted in this idea that you and your spouse are working on these things together, which in some cases was great and was true, but in many cases was not. And so it just allows all women to focus on their part of the story so that they can then move towards the relationship in their life that needs healing.

Yep. And I think that it's just important to say that the biggest shift, you know, because Heather, and we'll just say this now, Heather and then Ashley Jameson are two of the biggest contributors now to this new one. It's built on the foundation that we had with the older version, but it's really a resequencing thing in this model, mostly because we're trying to create that safety. We're trying to get a betrayed partner to a place where they can see their reality, they can look at it and understand what's true, and then make decisions on their future. And the heart of peer desire has been and will always be restoration of marriages. That's what we're after. And so this resequencing, we just want to make sure that that is very clear, that that's where we are still as an organization, is just. We're trying to set up both partners to be in a place where healing is possible. And if we. Some sequences can get us in a place where we're processing things that maybe we're not ready for. And so that's really the heart, is to try to set up both spouses to be at a place where they're healthy and can make the decision. And we encourage the decision to restore marriages and families.

Well, that's the point of this episode, to say to churches and communities, you need healing groups for women who've been betrayed. And so, Heather, if someone is in a church or community where they're trying to promote the idea of these betrayal groups, but maybe those in leadership or those that would be needed to be on board to start the groups don't seem super interested or really understand even the purpose of it. What could a person do to help promote the idea of these groups to their church?

Well, I think we kind of talked about this a little bit at the beginning, but it really is to educate yourself around the symptoms of betrayal trauma. Because a lot of women, I think that disclosure or discovery happens, and there's a little bit of denial that says, okay, if he just goes to get fixed, then I'm going to be fine. But they don't recognize that how now they're trying to keep the peace with their spouse, but then they're yelling at their kids all the time that that is a symptom of trauma. That is, there's something wrong with that. And I think the more that churches can have that education and really have the idea that you've been hurt, that his sexual brokenness has impacted you in ways that you don't even understand. And really, you need healing. And I think just to stress that to women, because I think a lot of women initially, they don't want to do this. You know, they don't. They feel not only are they hurt and feeling all the things that they felt before this, you know, connected to the betrayal, but also it's kind of like, well, now why do I have to do this? Because. And it makes him angry. This was his thing. He brought it into our marriage. It's all him. And yet now I'm having to sacrifice my time and I'm having to do homework, and we now have to get childcare every week. And, you know, and so I think to just help women understand that this will benefit you. This will bring healing into your life. It'll heal areas of your life that you didn't even know were impacted by this brokenness. So I think that's helpful.

Well, and I think of the way to promote healthy marriages, which we know in so many ways is a foundation of a healthy church. You need to offer something for both spouses that are impacted by sexual brokenness. So the one who's struggling with it and the one who is impacted and it Creates trauma for. And so I think, you know, even just at a base level of what a church is made up of, it's made up of families, it's made up of individuals that create families and then create this community. And I really think that that's a way to prioritize marriages and is by offering this. And so I think that could be a creative angle to take when talking to church leadership. I think a couple of, maybe they're easier sells in some ways to church leadership. But I think of Sexual Integrity 101, our video course is something that, you know, we have even available right now, is that if a church wants to check it out, we can give them a 30 day free license just to check it out. And that's eight sessions that a leader can, can walk through and watch through. Also we have a free ebook on our website, the 7 Keys to Understanding Betrayal Trauma. That's a really easy thing to do. And then we have tons of podcasts on betrayal. You know, so I think that's those are just some, some things that you can do for free that maybe get that hurdle of pricing out of the way for people and it's less investment that they have to make in order to explore.

You can always take the Ashley Jameson route too to go to your pastor and say, I'm hurt. We need these groups. What are you going to do about it? And if the leader turns and says, well, could you help lead it? You know, maybe be open to that. But I do think it's letting our voice be heard. And I said this in the episode to men last time. It's like if you are a man listening to this episode, don't just think, oh well, that's nothing really I can do. The women need to figure that out. No, you can be a voice on behalf of your spouse that goes to your pastor and says, I've wounded my wife. I'm taking steps to work on healing. And maybe in your church you have a Seven Pillars group or you've Running Conqueror or Sexual Integrity 101. You can say, I'm, I'm so thankful I have these tools to work on my issues. But right now we don't have any tools for my wife. How could we help the women start a group for those that need to bear one another's burdens to come together for healing and just being a voice and an advocate. And then if possible, if it's the burden that's on your heart as a woman, I think offering to say I'd be a part of helping Facilitate it. If you'll give us some space and permission to do this.

Yeah. And we need to make sure we highlight the group pathway that we have and we'll have that link in the show notes for this. But that's something that has all of these. It starts with the email template on how to communicate the need to leaders. It has an interview with Nick and Michelle, a couple episodes that they did part one and two with Focus on the Family. It has brochures and really a 30,000 foot view of how to create a purity, how to create purity groups, and then really start launching a ministry. So all those resources are free. And again, we'll put that in the show notes for you. What does leadership training look like? It's funny because funny is not the right word. But betrayal trauma is not something that you can get really amped up to get in and lead people through. And so specifically for Betrayal and Beyond, for women, what does group leadership training or development look like as they enter this really, really difficult time in these women's lives?

So for sure, any of the leaders who have led the old Betrayal and beyond, they could easily lead this new content. It's different, but it still has the foundational tools and a lot of the same foundation that the original had. I think that for women who want to lead, going through the group leader training is going to give them all the information that they need to facilitate a BNB group. And even though it is focused more on trauma and the aspects of trauma, of betrayal trauma specifically, you don't have to be clinically trained, you do not have to have any special licensing or degrees or whatever, because we always hope that a leader is going through their own healing alongside the women in their group. And so again, it just is something that should be relatively easy. And the curriculum is going to kind of facilitate the pathway to healing.

Yeah, like in so many of these groups, we feel like the greatest teacher is experience. And so if you are a woman in your church, you are the only one that you are aware of that is pursuing, doing this, you could perhaps join an online group with pure desire or find another church in your community that might be running these groups and you could lean in for your healing. And as you're experiencing a new layer of growth and health, then you're able to turn and say, I simply want to offer to others what God's doing in my life. That my experience, I think could be replicated. And like we said, not because you're a counselor or a professional, but you're experiencing something new and beautiful. And you want to just share your journey. That's really what leadership is about. So if we could help facilitate getting you into a group for your healing, then you could be positioned, you know, nine, ten months down the road to really launch that first group in your own church.

Yeah. And if you haven't had that time for development. One of the things in my experience when I started groups, I had zero experience. The group leader training didn't exist at the time is just consistency. If you're willing to go first and share and be open and vulnerable and be consistent, you can lead a group. It might be, you know, challenging. And I mean, leading these groups is challenging definitely in different seasons and situations, but you are capable of leading groups. But just know that even your consistency in showing up and being present and being vulnerable can go a long way too, if you haven't had all that time for development.

So the recommended group size is around six or we say a range like five to eight women at most. What would you recommend someone does if they launch these groups? Promote them. And more women than that are interested, but not enough leaders. How could a church or a person handle that situation?

This is probably why we always recommend having a co leader or somebody else who could help facilitate the group or cover when somebody's out of town or something. But that's where it really does become important to have a co leader. Because if the group gets too big, it's recommended that you split the group. And so then the group leader would take half and the co leader would take half and then they basically branch off and start their own groups. But it really is designed that way so that all the women have time and space to share. And so if you get too many women in the group and the lessons are only a certain amount length of time, then it seems like you run out of time. You run out of time. Allowing women to share what needs to be shared in the group.

And I think that that's. We want to emphasize that on this question is that this is not a arbitrary thing. It's that it do more damage if there are so many people in the group and they're unable to actually experience what the group is for. They can't share, they can't hear everyone else's story. A couple other creative ways we've talked about in this series is, you know, maybe there's a church down the street or in your area that is also running betrayal and beyond groups. It's okay to send people to other churches. That doesn't mean they're leaving your church or their tithe is gone. Like, don't worry about that. We just want women to get healing. Online groups we've already mentioned is another way. But then even in some of our previous conversations in this series talking about that, if you have a large group, maybe you do the check in with the large group and then split off and do the homework covering the homework. You do those in smaller groups and you just tap somebody who can help facilitate that, who maybe isn't the quote unquote official leader of the group. But they're just creative ways to still replicate the environment that is so important to this. Even though you may have 10, 15 women.

Yeah. And I think one of the most important things is that in that situation you don't allow group to become a revolving door of like, well, come when you can. It's kind of a big group. And I think that's a danger if you've got, let's say 15 women and it's like, well, only 10 made. But that's fine because we really don't have time if all 15 come anyway. Well, what's going to happen in that scenario is women really aren't going to develop the level of trust in one another. And that feeling of safety that those who know my story respond to it. Well, I feel confident to share other things. If women are coming in and out, joining at different times, it's just, it's not going to develop that safety that they need to really be able to share openly. So whatever you do do guard against just kind of creating an open forum of come when you want feel. Because it really won't benefit anyone if you do that.

No. So as these groups gain momentum, interest can increase. Definitely as you're seeing women healing and sharing with other women in their lives. With that in mind, how many times do we suggest a church might start betrayal and beyond groups? And then two, thinking about those wives whose spouses also have. They have sexual brokenness, how should that work? The conjunction with seven Pillars groups starting, like, should there be coordination between the two?

It seems like in most churches that are starting a purity ministry that they will start the seven pillars groups because they seem to have more need. And then within a few months they'll start BNB groups. I think that historically we always recommend that they just start with the school year in September whenever kids are in school, and then they run the groups that long. I think that for a lot of people, especially as the need grows, that's not enough groups. I mean, to run only a few Groups in September. I've heard of some churches who will start them in September and then start them in January, too, Even though the January groups will run into the summer a little bit. But because there is often a need and the need. It's like the more groups you have, the more groups you need. And so because the word gets out and people see transformation happening and healing. And so I think that there are, like you've said, Trevor, a lot of creative ways for people to offer groups. And even if it is overseen by a church, it might even be that you have some groups at the church, but then some people want to run the groups in their home just because it feels safer. And I think there's a lot of variation that can happen in those other types of groups.

And I think as often as possible, if you can launch them along with seven pillars of freedom groups, it makes a lot of sense because it presents to your church. This is for men and women. We need healing on both sides. And if you're already promoting the one you've. You've kind of created the space in your. Whether in your service or your bulletin on your webpage. And it just makes sense to kind of pair them together. And even if there maybe are staggered by a couple of months of the starting points, still mentioning them together, talking to men who you contact, women who you contact, I think it just raises the overall awareness of your church, of what's happening and how to join, and can really be as important as, when does it actually start? It's that people know who to contact and that there is something to do, and so that's important. The other thing for women's groups on the betrayal side, to keep in mind, you know, for an addiction recovery group, we always recommend they meet through the summer, through holidays. Like, our addiction doesn't take a break, so neither should recovery. But on the betrayal side, there is more flexibility. I know a lot of women's groups may take the summer off, but still look for opportunities to connect with one another and support. Because betrayal recovery kind of has its own pacing. And I don't think it's as contingent on, boy, if I miss a week, I'm gonna go backwards. Which really, I think is a much more present threat for the recovering addict. There is just a little more flexibility in the scheduling or how churches run groups, which might help them actually start them more often. Because I think sometimes with the recovery groups the church looks at, man, we don't want to make them run through the summer, so we only start in fall. So that it ends by the summer, which I get. But on the women's recovery side, they can take that break. So even we had groups at my church that would start mid spring and they would meet for three, four months. They'd take a couple months off and jump back in in the fall. So that really can work, especially on the betrayal side.

Just this last weekend, my church is running Sexual Integrity 101 groups, but they're doing one specifically for men and one specifically for women and thinking through strategically how to maybe stagger those where you start a Betrayal and beyond group, and then maybe a few months later you start a sexual integrity 101 group. And you can do that specifically for women just to kind of get them going in this, you know, starting the conversation. But then you may identify someone in that group who does have leadership capability that could then step in and facilitate the Betrayal and beyond after. And so just thinking through how to use that video course in a way strategically that can help you stagger those group starts for Betrayal and Beyond. And again, that you may find that there are people from other churches that come to that Sexual Integrity 101 and then start helping with your groups.

So, yeah. So, Heather, a big question, we've talked about it in a lot of our resources is that healing is a three to five year process that to get to that place of real full stability in relationships and as individuals creating our new normal. It's. It's a long game. It's something we want to have that long view in mind. So with that in mind, you've said there's 30 lessons that could be done in, you know, roughly seven and a half, eight months. If people do a lesson a week, what do they do at month eight when it's like, group's over? But these women are thinking, I thought this was a two to five, three to five year process. What now? So what additional steps might women take to continue their healing journey?

So a lot of times we recommend that depending on where they're at, and this is, I mean, there's a lot of. It all depends to this question.

Every story's different.

Totally. Yes. Yeah. But if people, if women still feel like they're a little bit stuck in their betrayal trauma, then we would recommend that they go through betrayal and beyond again. And this is a great opportunity for them to even go through it as a co leader with the anticipation that they would then lead in their third year. And again, depending on if they're in a perfect world, if their husband's been in seven pillars and they've done betrayal and beyond. And then they wanted to, after that first year, do something like connected, do something which is a marriage resource. Yes, exactly. And something that's working on them instead of a his and hers approach. That is also a good thing. And I also think that there's. Honestly, there's a lot of really good resources out there on betrayal trauma that would really just help to raise awareness of the why, of why it's so important that we find healing in this area. Because healing from betrayal is only the beginning. It would be naive to say that. That all of our trauma that we've experienced comes from that marriage relationship. And even though that is a huge piece of what they're dealing with now, when they find healing from that, then they might discover that, you know what? I have some other woundedness in my life that really happened in my childhood or that has to do with my family or with other relationships that I should work through that. Then we would hope that then they would follow through with some other kind of recovery for healing lifelong trauma, you know, not just betrayal trauma.

Yeah, we've seen a lot of women that get to that point and will go into unraveled groups. Maybe not because they've got a sexual addiction, but they might see a dependency on relationships that they realize is rooted in. This is where I find my value. Or I know a lot of churches will utilize the genesis process so that the women can just unpack. Boy, this unearthed a lot of stuff. Now what do I do with it? And, of course, always considering the healing that's brought into your life, how can that be? From 2nd Corinthians 1, how can I use the comfort God has given me to comfort others? And if you're a woman who's found healing, you know, there are women stuck in this whirlwind of, what did I do wrong? Why can't I fix him? Why isn't my love, my body, my whatever enough for him? And you can be that voice to encourage them. So I. I think what we've said too, on this podcast many times is helping others in the process is actually going to continue your healing. There's something about when we process the journey and the group through the lens of I'm going to help others and how do I explain it? That actually takes it even deeper in our own story. So if that's where you're at, a place of, boy, I've got some healing, and I want to go deeper, consider leading, because as you lead, it's going to take you deeper than you Expect so I think there's a lot of options there.

The only thing I would add is just, you know, depending on where you're at, going through counseling, you know, and we would recommend Pure Desire counseling if you're still feeling stuck or your relationship still needs a lot of growth in these areas. That's always beneficial. I know that, you know, part of that process too, is the diving into what's going on in me in my past, with my family, and so maybe prioritizing that too, as a next step. For sure. And this one, I mean, in my experience here at Pure Desire, I don't hear this quite as often, but I do realize with so many leaders and pastors that are in the church that this can be a possibility where maybe there is a woman on staff at a church or a pastor's wife who experiences betrayal trauma and wants to enter into these groups. Do we recommend that she does this group with women who are in her church or community or how else would we handle that situation?

This is another one of those it depends totally type questions. Yeah, this is. I think for a lot of women in that situation, the online group would be a good first step because it's something that they basically will be anonymous. Nobody would know. Nobody from their church would know that it's going on. Because it can be a little bit tricky because especially if it's a pastor's wife, then the implication is that you're struggling. And that's why I've experienced betrayal. And I just think that to guard that, I think is a lot is important for the couple, and especially how the church is going to handle the other piece to this. But being involved in an online group or if there's another church half an hour away that you can go to, even with that, you still need to.

Be careful, but still it can be better than your own community.

Right. And so that's why. I don't know. My first suggestion would be to join an online group and so that then you'd have that healing with people who are not connected with your church community and start with that.

Yeah, I think we said the same thing on the Seven Pillars episode. That probably not for your first group, your first experience, but as you're developing healing, it can be powerful. If a staff lady, a gallon, staff pastor, the pastor's wife is one of the women running these groups because it just. It legitimizes it for everyone else. It's like, well, if she's in the group, I could be in the. Like, it's. It must be Safe for me to do too. In terms of that first group, I think especially the question would be if. If it's a pastor's wife, it would be, is the pastor's story known? Because if there's been a circumstance where it's kind of public knowledge or it was a part of a story of redemption in his life, it's going to be a much easier step then for that female pastor or pastor's wife to be in group versus if their spouse's story is not known and they're in group. Even for those women, I'm not saying they're going to break confidentiality and spread rumors around the church, but even for those women in groups, if they know the pastor's wife is there and suddenly that's going to impact the way they see one of their pastors or one of the men in leadership. And it just, I think, will create a difficult dynamic in a church. So as Heather said, it depends. I think there's times and ways it's worked and a lot of places there's just wisdom. It's why we created online groups. It's why we've created those opportunities so that in a really confidential, anonymous place outside of your local context, a woman in ministry or a pastor's wife could find healing.

Yeah, I think discernment, obviously, as we touched on. But I think this is a great opportunity to reach out to us and maybe give us some information on the situation and we can help give you some direction on where we would go. Because this is just a really messy situation you find yourself in, for sure.

Heather, this has been really good and we're so excited about the new material and really taking healing for women, I think, to a whole new level, reaching a lot more women. So as women consider, should I be in a group? Should I lead a group? Should we do this at my church? What would be some final advice or encouragement you would give to women today?

I think that probably the first thing is to just recognize that healing from betrayal trauma is a slow process and just to allow yourself to, I don't know, get into a group knowing that you're going to have a different type of encouragement and support than what you've had before, especially if you are familiar with the old material. But then for, well, for everyone, just to know that we are taking a partner sensitive approach. We're looking specifically at the impact of betrayal trauma and how that's impacting all areas of your life and how healing is possible, but just also recognizing that it's going to take time that three to five year process can seem a little bit daunting, but just to recognize that your first step is just to get into a safe group, that you're going to find a specific level of healing initially and see what happens from there.

Yeah. My only encouragement is just do not overlook the importance of this group. Like, this is something that prioritizes. This allows you to prioritize both sides of a marriage, both spouses that are involved, and that communicates a lot to a church. If you offer these groups that communicates to women who walk in, that you see them, that you care about them, that you understand this experience happens and that can go a long, long way in the culture that you create in your church. And yeah, it's just, it's easy to see the problem and think of just the addict that's causing the problem, but you have to think about those who've impacted by those decisions.

Yeah. And I just want to say again to every man who is listening, whether you are young and single or old and married or somewhere in between, that you have a role to play in encouraging these groups and if you are married, encouraging the women in your life to make this happen. Now, you don't want to push her into group. You don't want to tell her you need group. It really needs to come from her. I think there are ways you can say, hey, there's an option at our church and I would love for you to do that if you're ready, if you want, and then back it up by make sure to say, I've got the kids that night, don't worry about it. Or if it's the same night as your group, we'll cover childcare, we'll hire someone to be proactive and not dragging your feet of like, well, I guess if you want to, or are you really that hurt? I mean, sometimes maybe in our own defensiveness, as we're kind of feeling shameful about our own behaviors and what it's led to in our marriage, we may make comments that inadvertently undermine our spouse feeling they can do that group. And I just say guard against that. Be the champion and cheerleader for your wife to do this. Because as we've said as well, the greatest hope for a future marriage that's restored and thriving is that both husband and wife feel healthy, secure, and at peace in Christ and who they are. And then they bring two holes to a marriage that can thrive. So whatever you can do as a man to help the women in your church experience that, go for it. And I think It'll really make a difference long term in the culture in your church.

Obviously you can tell from this episode Betrayal and Beyond groups are very central to Pure Desire's approach to creating that holistic, healthy family. And this is again, this is such an area that gets overlooked and its impact of our relationship with the Lord, with people around us and even with ourselves. So obviously we prioritize this. And as we've mentioned, the new Betrayal and Beyond is available for pre order right now. We'll have the link in the show Notes. You can go to PureDesire.org BB pre order one word, pre order and you can pre order that and get that going in your church. Absolutely. Heather, thank you for the conversation, but you've put tons of work into this resource, you and Ashley both, and we just want to thank you for that effort. And I know that it's been a labor of love in some way ways for sure, but we appreciate the hard work and we just want to make sure you get the recognition for that. So thank you so much.

Oh, it's been my pleasure to work on it and again, just excited to see the changes that happen for women.

Absolutely. And wherever you're at on your journey, Pure Desire is here to help create a roadmap for your healing. If you or someone you know is impacted by sexual brokenness or betrayal trauma, go to PureDesire.org and begin the healing journey today. If this podcast is helpful on your journey, please share it with others. Make sure to subscribe. Subscribe to the podcast and drop us a review. It helps others find the podcast. Each week we are putting out new content to help you on the road to healing and freedom. And lastly, never stop being healthy.