276 - A Partner Sensitive Approach To Healing From Betrayal w/ Dr. Barbara Steffens

Welcome to the Pure Desire Podcast, helping you take back your life from unwanted sexual behavior and betrayal trauma. Hey, hey, hey. I am your host, Trevor Windsor, and you're listening to episode 276 of the Pure Desire podcast. Here joining me, as always, is my.

Co host, Nick Stumbo, live from Troutdale, Oregon. It's Saturday night.

Okay. Have you ever watch the show Comedians in Cars getting coffee with Jerry Seinfeld?

No, I just listen to other people talk about it and then the problem is I think it can't possibly be funnier than what people are describing. So I'm just happy to let other people describe it.

Well, let's just continue that trend. Let's continue that trend. Jerry Seinfeld had Jimmy Fallon on, and I can't remember the guy's name, but the announcer for Saturday Night Live says he talks that way, like, all the time. It's not just when he announces it. He said he walks down the hallway and he's like, jimmy, how's the family? So it makes me so happy that there's someone out there who sounds like that, because clearly that's Saturday Night Live. Do you know his name?

It's like, well, no, not really. It's like the Marv Albert of Saturday Night Live. Huh? Because I wonder that about Marv Albert. Like, when he's at home, is he like, and we're going to have some cereal for breakfast every game. You know, I was watching Marv Albert this weekend, and every NFL game, it's like the super bowl to him. He's just so excited, lots of energy.

I wonder if his wife's just like, shut up already. Gosh, not everything has to be so dramatic. Okay, so I'm interested to see how you tie that in because we had a super good episode today. We had Dr. Barbara Steffens, who is the founding president of an organization called appsats, which is really an organization that prioritizes being partner sensitive to those who've experienced sexual betrayal. And we had her on to talk about just that. A partner sensitive approach to healing from betrayal.

Yeah, you know, Saturday Night Live has quite a history, and not everybody gets it or would say it's their cup of tea. And I would even say in my viewing years, some of the sketches I thought were hilarious and others were just like, I don't really understand what's going on here or why is this funny? And I think when it comes to betrayal, there is just so much history. There's a lot of misunderstanding about what do spouses need? What's actually helpful is it their fault. And I think betrayed spouses can wonder if I just did certain things better, could I have we avoided this? And because of all the maybe misconceptions, people don't really know what to make of it. And Saturday Night Live is going through a real rebranding or is it even going to continue? And so that's what made me think of, I think if everyone understands what we talk about today, if there's some light that's shed on what's really happening in betrayal and what does a betrayed spouse need for healing, we can really move forward. So I don't know that Saturday Night Live as a show has that pathway forward, but I feel like God is bringing to churches and to leaders a pathway to say we can help both the struggling or addicted spouse and the betrayed spouse heal. And we just need to be equipped and informed to know what do those pathways look like so that in the end they do meet as a restored marriage.

And as a part of our conversation, we highlight that Dr. Barbara Steffens actually helped give us some feedback on our updated new Betrayal and Beyond resource. And with that too, just want to make sure that people know that we do offer online groups for Betrayal and Beyond. For seven Pillars, we have living Free groups, unravel groups for women. But yeah, I mean, and it's just something to highlight again that we have online groups for those that maybe don't have groups in their area.

Yeah, we talk about it at several places in this episode, how valuable it is that we have a community around us and in particular, community that gets what we're going through. It's not just that we have people around us, but that we're in a specific community to what it is that we're facing. And we've highlighted it over and over for the struggling or addicted person. Like, you need to walk with others that are also looking for healing. And we want to say the same for betrayed spouses, that you need a community around you as well. And sometimes the reality is just that's hard to find in a local church. We're thankful that there's a growing number of churches that have understood, hey, we can do this. We don't have to send someone somewhere else to get healed. But honestly, percentage wise, those numbers of churches are still few and far between. And so if you are a betrayed spouse or a struggling spouse, that's saying, I need a community of people that are walking a road to healing. That's why we started online groups and would really, really encourage you to reach out and consider Jumping into that, it really is a commitment. You know, these are eight to ten months every week being engaged with a group. But that's a big part of what makes it life changing is this isn't just a casual check in, see how it's going. This is like take a journey together and by the end, be really close to these people that eight to ten months ago, you didn't even know them. And that's just what we found over and over changes lives. It's not the material itself. It's processing the material with other people that are on that journey with you. So, yeah, I can't say enough about the value of being in one of these online groups.

Yeah, absolutely. So if you want more information on them or if you'd like to join an online group, go to PureDesire.org groups. All right, subscribe to the podcast. We're on all the major platforms. Follow us on social media. Your DesirePDMI. And this full episode will be up on YouTube. And with that, here's our conversation with Dr. Barbara Steffens about a partner sensitive approach to healing from betrayal. Dr. Barbara Steffens, thank you so much for coming again on the Pure Desire podcast. We appreciate you being here.

Oh, you're welcome. I'm so excited to have a conversation with you guys.

Yeah. And just listener, like, she's being tough, like she's getting over a sickness, but she's still like, you know what? I care about the podcast. I care about the listeners. So I'm gonna be here. I'm tough it out. So if you hear her cough, we'll do our best to cut it out. But listen, it may happen and that's gonna be okay. So thank you for toughing it out with us too. We appreciate that a lot.

Sure. Yeah, glad to.

Okay, so we're having a conversation about the partner sensitive approach to healing from sexual betrayal. And as the founder of appsats, maybe give a little bit of background too, before we even get into question one, will you kind of let people know? I know they might have heard you on the podc, but just a quick background on what appsats is this organization that you were part of.

Okay. Appsats is the association for partners of sex addicts, trauma specialists. It was formed, gosh, I think 2011. We started doing trainings in 2012 and I was the founding president. I never thought I would be part of a nonprofit. It was never on my list of fun things to do. And then because I was already known in the field, having done research and published a book, I Think that's why I got tapped to be president. I retired from that role, I don't know, maybe about three years ago. But apsats trains and certifies clinicians and coaches, trained coaches to provide excellent care and support to partners of people who are struggling with their sexual behaviors, or what we call sex addicts. So, yeah, we're doing great work. People have been trained from all over the world. I've been the primary trainer since we began. I'm getting ready to start to retire out of that role since now we have a lot of people behind me ready to take over, and they're doing great work.

That's awesome.

So now I'm just kind of a volunteer. I'm board member emeritus, where I don't have to do anything, but they want to hear what I think.

That's awesome.

Well, coming up in about two weeks from this recording, Dr. Steffens will be a part of training almost 30 of our staff and key volunteers, people who are leading peer desire groups all over the country that have said, man, we want to take this training. And so we had so much interest in it that we're like, well, we've just got to host our own and let's do that and get the appsats team. And so I know a lot of folks around Pure Desire are really excited, and by the time people are listening to this, we'll have done that. So we will be. Well, we won't be experts, but at least we'll be moving in the right direction of understanding and just deepening our knowledge in this area.

That's right. Absat's trained.

Yeah. And that's a whole new area of training that we're providing, is for people who work in church or other kind of religious organizations who want more information on how to be helpful.

Yeah, that's cool. Okay, so let's get into it then. What, from your experience, what are some historical approaches to healing from sexual betrayal? And really just looking at what damage have those approaches caused and thinking more inside the church with these, I think.

I want to start kind of how I entered into this whole arena. It wasn't anything I really chose. What I say is it's a specialty that chose me. And so when I needed some information, some help, I was already a trained, licensed counselor. I had just left working for a large church in my area where I was directing programs. So this happened, and I started to recognize what I was feeling, and I recognized some of my symptoms, and I went to people that I knew in the area who might understand Sex addiction and asked them what's there for me? And they gave me some books to read. And in those books it was describing me as if they knew me and with some assumptions about who I was, what my history was. And the model was more of a, more of a, an addiction model where a partner was automatically assumed to be co addicted, so addicted to the person with the addiction and with behaviors that were symptoms of that addiction. And so that got me thinking, this doesn't sound right. It doesn't fit with my experience or my history. And I just started making myself available to help other people because I couldn't find help for myself. I said, I'll just sit and join. So I started a group where I just was safe space. And as I was listening to their stories, that's where I started really hearing and understanding the trauma of it. But the original models were addiction related, that there was something within the partner, you know, their own history, their own prior, maybe abuse in their relationships that led them to find and be in relationship with someone with sex addiction. So it was called the two heat seeking missiles approach. And so it's like you're destined. And so how that felt for the partner was there's something wrong with you or you would not have married someone who would betray you this way. And again, from a mental health perspective, that didn't make any sense to me. So that led me then on the road to do research and went back to get my doctorate, do some research. And that's where I found trauma. And when I started teaching about the, on that, and around 2005, that's when the field started to change.

Wow.

Yeah. As I was thinking about this question, Trevor, I think the way I would phrase it, and this is what I hear, you know, Dr. Steffen saying, is the approach that a lot of churches and honestly pastors and leaders have taken is to say to the spouse, you're part of the problem. Whether it was because of your, your nature and your wounds from the past that caused you to marry that person or even within the relationship of if you were, how often are you having sex and how are you treating him or how are you treating her? And if, if you only did this, then you help them. And I hope to believe that from a lot of these leaders, it was well intentioned, they thought they were helping, but it was actually communicating very, very negative messages to people that were reeling from things of just, I just found out about my spouse's behaviors and I'm supposed to be part of the problem. I think we just have to be aware that even if we can all acknowledge that none of us are perfect. And I think maybe that's why it happens in a lot of churches, because we do see in every marriage, yeah, both people have things they can work on and ways they can contribute to a healthier marriage. But when we're talking about this kind of addiction recovery, to then apply that same thinking to, well, you're part of the problem, too, just sets the couple off on, I think a very, very challenging path that we've seen leads to a lot of pain and disillusionment from that betrayed spouse. And the other method I was going to mention, and I don't know if you want to speak to this as well, Barbara, but for a lot of churches, I think the historical approach has been nothing like what, you know, do something for the betrayed spouse. We don't do that. Like, we just work with the one who has the problem or is the addict or the struggler. And there's kind of an assumption of the spouse, I guess, just figures it out. I don't know. I'm not sure what our strategy was there, but I think a lot of churches, including the kind of churches I grew up in, would have just said, we don't really help that person. We just help the one with the problem, the struggler or the addict.

Yeah, I would agree. The silence approach for the partner. I heard so many women say I would see people rally around my spouse and pray for him and offer him support and accountability. And it was like I was standing there. And now I have kind of like the Scarlet A so or the Scarlet S. Spouse of the Attic. But no one wants to talk to me. Everyone's afraid of my emotion. They don't know what to do with me. And so they're just left hanging there. So I think that's a real experience still today in a lot of churches.

Yeah.

And again, it's because they don't know what. They don't know exactly how to provide assistance.

Yeah.

And I think that it's easy in this conversation to villainize the church, that somehow this is negligent, which I think in a lot of churches, you can make that statement based on what they do, how they handle situations. But a lot of this, too, is just a call for churches to be more informed, for church leaders, for counselors inside the church to be informed with the trauma that is experienced with sexual betrayal so that we know how to. And that's the whole reason we're having this conversation, is to better understand this so that we can help people who are in this situation.

Yeah. So, Dr. Steffens, when we say a partner sensitive approach, what does that mean? And how is that different than maybe approaches that a lot of people or churches have taken historically?

Well, historically, I think the approach was kind of what we were just talking about. All the focus was on the person with the problem, the person with the behaviors that were out of control and certainly outside of God's will for them. And then if the partner, if the betrayed spouse was brought in, it was in support of the person with the addictive behaviors. Again, a lot like chemical dependency and other programs, it's, how can we help you so that your loved one doesn't relapse? And so that put a lot of burden on the partner then to be responsible, responsible for the sobriety. So what we're saying is be sensitive to the need of the struggler, but also be sensitive to the real needs of the person who's been betrayed and now we understand is likely traumatized as a result. So care and support is being aware of both person's needs as well as the relationship and the larger system or the family.

When we were talking about even the first question I thought of when someone. I'm just thinking of a leader, a counselor, a pastor who's sitting in the room and a betrayed partner comes in and explains the situation that we want to give them something to do. It's almost like we're allergic to just sitting there and saying, I'm so sorry, and just sitting in that space. There needs to be this actionable thing that's happening. What can I give this person to walk out, to feel empowered? And as long as I've been in recovery and as long as I've worked here at Pure Desire and been a part of these conversations, there is time and space to just sit and say, I am so sorry, and just sit in that weight and that difficulty and that trauma. And I think, you know, and I've talked about this a number of times on the podcast, that we're uncomfortable just sitting in that tension. We're uncomfortable sitting in that pain. And so we just. We just want to get in there and solve it. We just want to take care of it so that you can hurry up and heal, so we can move on with ministry. You can move on with your life. I think that that's what I see is so different with this approach, is that it's something that gives the time and space for a partner to feel the feelings that's going on and to be given Time and space for that, but then also time to process that without having to think through, you know, as I've understood it, to think through. Like, is there a future with my spouse right now? Do I feel safe? Like there's some time to have those things develop through conversation. And that's why I think it's been different from what I've witnessed, at least in the church.

Yeah. And I would want to say that being with sitting and listening and absorbing and offering just compassion in your eyes, that's action. And so think of it as action, not inaction. I know we want to give like a script, like do this and everything will be better. Yeah, but, but we know and Jesus taught us that being with. He came to be with us.

Yeah.

And to experience what we can, what he experiences, what we experience. And we need to do that with each other. So it's the most important action that you can take.

Yeah.

So good.

So a follow up question to that. What I hear you describing is that in the past we saw the addict has a journey and the spouse supports it. In the partner sensitive approach, we're recognizing they both have a journey, they both have needs. And would it be accurate to say it's okay that those journeys look very different, have very different timing, different tools, different needs? Because I think the churches have maybe we've always tried. Not always, but we often try to make something that, well, here's what the couple needs to do together. And yet I think what I hear about the partner sensitive approach, it's really appropriate that for a time their needs to focus on versus addiction versus the betrayed spouse might be a pretty different pathway. And we need to allow there to be space for there to be differences. Is that a good way of describing it or what would you say to that?

Yeah, I would say that the journey, especially initially, might look very, very different. There's a lot of similarities too. Both people are shocked, they're traumatized. I believe the person who's just been discovered or exposed is traumatized as well. So they're both really hurting people. I think where a lot of us, and perhaps in the church, because we value marriage so highly that we see this as a marriage issue or a marriage problem rather than something that has happened that now has impacted the marriage as well as impacting two individuals within that relationship.

Gosh. I'm just so.

Yeah.

Seeing these things as different paths because there's different needs, but both are traumatized, both are in great pain. And it's not a reflection of the marriage, but the marriage is Impacted by what's happened.

I'm just thinking of a pastoral approach. You want marriages to be restored, and it's almost like that's how you keep score. And honestly, that's a lot easier to keep track of than if both spouses are in a healthy place or feel safe or okay in their relationship. And so I think it's easy to get caught up with what can be seen or what can be measured. And I think, I mean, I can totally see how it's very easy to slip into that mindset. Well, let's just restore the marriage. Let's make sure that you guys stay together, don't get divorced, don't do this. But even in that, that can cause even more damage is what I'm understanding from our conversation already.

Well, certainly because a marriage can survive but not be healed, we can stay together because we're supposed to stay together, and that's what God wants for us. But if both individuals aren't getting the care and the support and the healing that they need, what kind of marriage is that going to be? And we find that when people get the kind of support that they need individually, longer term, when that marriage does survive, it thrives because they're stronger. They've really gone through horrible things together. There's a deeper bond. They have more skills now to bring into the marriage. So it deepens it. So just surviving is not adequate.

Yeah, that's a good word. Yeah.

Okay, so continuing on, why? And this, for some people who are listening, this may seem like a silly question, but in this context, I think it's important to draw it out. Why is understanding trauma so important to our approach to healing from betrayal?

Well, I think mostly because the initial symptoms that show up when someone is traumatized can look very confusing and very messy and be misunderstood. When I was starting this work and I read a list of what they called the symptoms of co addiction, which were signs of that individual's addiction, is one way of conceptualizing what you're seeing. This person is shut down. They're not talking or they're angry, or they're hypervigilant. They're checking things all the time. And that was called symptoms of co addiction. But if you look at symptoms of trauma, it's being hyper vigilant, it's being on guard, it's perhaps being really angry. It's perhaps numbing and shutting down. It's doing things that kind of feel like they don't make any sense at the time. But for the individual doing them, it's attempts of Trying to find out what's real, am I safe or not? So understanding the source, you know where that's coming from. It's coming from not feeling safe any longer. It's coming from a place of, oh, my goodness, something horrible just happened, and I don't understand it. And I'm going to try to figure it out either by getting really angry at you so that I make sure that you know that this can't happen again, or being really quiet. So just being confused about what shows up when someone is traumatized. So if we understand what trauma looks like, both short term and long term, it can help us respond appropriately to the individual rather than saying, oh, well, you're a mess, or you're just raging and so kind of dismissing that individual, rather than helping them find what they need so that they can calm and soothe and find safety.

Yeah, we've talked about it a lot. How powerful. I mean, we've talked about it on both sides of addiction, but also betrayal, how powerful the limbic brain is in order to find safety, to seek out survival behaviors in the addict can be pursuing that in one way, but I think in the same vein for that betrayed spouse, when they recognize I'm doing a lot of things just because I don't feel safe and my brain is in this, either hyperactive or hypoactive, either shutting down or acting out. And when you put it together, it makes sense on both sides of the equation that it's our limbic brain taking over and shutting down, our thinking brain shutting down the parts of us that are maybe rational, but for very different reasons for the addicted spouse or the betrayed spouse. And I think when we can help churches, what we've seen is when church leaders, staff members kind of see this process happening, then it's not just, well, we need to manage the behavior of the betrayed spouse, but we need to really help them figure out a way to move to a place where there is that safety, there is that security, so that then any further work actually has a foundation to build on. Because otherwise it's like that limbic brain is just still in overdrive. And any new information, it's like, nope, nope, nope, we're just shutting the doors on it. And I think when we see that as someone who's a pastor, when we say, like, oh, I actually can't really help this person if their brain is stuck in those places until I meet them right where their brain is at, that starts to make a lot of sense, I think. And then we can move towards the person with the care they need.

Absolutely. And I think it impacts the way we care for people, too, because, you know, I think of books like the Body Keeps a Score, van der Kolk's book on trauma, that trauma plays out and manifests in multiple domains of life. It's not just mental health. It could be physical health. Your body starts to shut down, things happen. And I think if we understand trauma and the effects it can have, it also helps inform the care that we can offer, that if someone's having a physical response to trauma, that there are things we can do to physically make them feel safe that then can impact them holistically. So I think understanding it has implications not just for knowing what's going on, but also the extension of care for that person.

And I think there's another piece of this, too, and why it's important to be trauma informed is if the trauma is not identified and is not helped to heal, then that's just going to be prolonged, and that's going to cause further problems further down the line for that individual who is traumatized. So now if another trauma occurs in their life and they haven't, you know, worked through this one or gained new skills, then they're going to be at a deficit for the next time something bad happens. So it's really important long term as well. And I just want to remind us that God is the one who created our brain to respond this way, to protect ourselves.

Yeah, it's a good word.

Yeah.

Well, it's like you said earlier, that we can have marriages that survive, but that doesn't mean they're healed. And shouldn't healing be our goal? And I think that's what we're after here. So for us at pure desire, Dr. Steffens, it feels like over the last few years, the voice of the betrayed spouse is becoming more prevalent, is growing louder, and I'm wondering if you're seeing that as well. And why do you think that is? Why is it just that as a society, we're hearing it more and listening more? Or is there something happening where on that side of betrayal, spouses have been able to speak out more and they're giving voice to what they're feeling? What. What are you seeing in that regard?

I think that, yes, their voices are being heard more, and that's encouraging. There's more places for partners to go now, too, to be able to gather information and to join with other people, and that gives them strength and courage to use their voice. Back in the day, when I was doing this, there was nothing There was nothing for a partner to go to other than a program who is treating their spouse, but nothing really related to, specific to what he or she needed. The partner, the betrayed person. But now, with groups in churches like you all provide, as well as on social media and podcasts like this and other resources, there's so much more information now that I think it's less likely a partner is going to feel so isolated that she's afraid to use her voice. And so the more people are sharing their journey and their stories and out there with it, it's much, much easier than for them to join. I was just at a retreat just this last weekend, and watching this group of about 50 women come together and to hear each other's story and champion each other. I think that's what we're seeing right now is women are especially. Women are champing each other. And when we get together, we can get mighty strong and mighty loud. So I think there's more information, much more research now than when I started. Much more, many more resources, especially within faith communities and at large. And there's this growing use of virtual formats to be able to provide supports like groups and individual support. All that just adds to it totally.

Yeah. I think it's from my experience managing social media, being on that side of what we do at Pure Desire, I see that a lot more. And it's not just a louder voice, it's a much more informed voice. And I think that, to me, I'm encouraged by it, because if we want healthy marriages, we need to have healthy people. And the more information that you can have out there, and from what I understand from women who've been through betrayal and beyond our resource and who are becoming or really are finding healing from sexual betrayal, they find their voice sometimes for the first time in their relationship where they're able to voice their needs, what makes them feel safe, what makes them feel cared for, and the things that don't make them feel safe or cared for. And I think that in order for a marriage to be healthy, you have to have both spouses knowing those things and communicating those things across. And so for me, I'm encouraged by it. And I think I'm just going to press in and ask this just off the cuff, stay with me here. But, like, I'm curious. There's some concern from, and I think it's maybe some of the, like, maybe from the churches and from the traditional standpoints too, of like, is this just becoming really loud husband bashing? How do we avoid that? I mean, that's kind of something that we have a heart for restoration of marriages, not just for giving both spouses a place to heal. We want that marriage to survive. So I don't know, any thoughts on that, how we maybe avoid that or how to counteract that if we see it happening?

I have not experienced, especially a group of women becoming husband bashing. I have heard that in terms of a concern or even a critique, totally. Because it's a safe place for women to share how they're feeling. And that does not necessarily mean husband bashing. Now, if something like that is occurring, it's usually because if it's within a group, it's. It's not being led appropriately to be able to bring them back to themselves and what they need. So I think the importance of group availability and trained group leaders to keep the group productive for everyone. I think that's the. That's the protection for that. But I think, I think too, that I want to be really careful about how I say this. I think, too, there is a fear of women getting together sometimes and getting strong and saying no to things or saying they want some change in how things are going in the relationship. That's a little scary. And they're shaking things up and saying, you know what? I'm not going to stay quiet anymore. That's not a bad thing. But that's also not husband bashing. So we just have to be careful on what's really going on. But trained leaders who know how to run a productive, healthy support group, I think are really helpful there.

I wonder, too, if when women gather and in these safe environments can speak the truth sometimes. The truth, when we're not used to hearing it, maybe we perceive it as, well, you're just bashing your husband. No, I'm speaking the truth of how his actions made me feel. I'm speaking the truth of how I was felt belittled in our marriage. And it's. It may come across to the untrained ear of, like, oh, you're just anti marriage or your husband. Like, no, I'm. I'm trying to talk about my experience so that I can actually work on it. And sometimes truth is hard. I mean, I know as a recovering addict myself that in my first year, especially the truths my wife shared, they were hard. And it felt like. It felt like being bashed or hit sometimes.

Yeah.

But, you know, more often than not, not even more often than not, like 99% of the time, it was totally fair. Yeah, I just wasn't used to hearing it or ready to hear it because I was so stuck in that fog of denial or rationalization or whatever it is. And so I might just encourage the person who's listening and fears that or feels that to ask the question, are we really afraid of the husband bashing, or do we just need to adjust to hearing truth so that we can change? So that people can change and marriages can change?

That's good. I love that point. I think that is so good. Nick.

So what challenges do you think partners face when seeking help from sexual betrayal? Specifically in churches or faith communities?

There's a lot. One is certainly they're afraid. So it takes a lot of courage to go into their faith community and start to speak about something that happened. They're very fearful. Most women, very fearful of saying anything that would soil the reputation of their loved one. So that's a challenge. So if they're not sure that their church, church leader, is a safe place, they may be afraid that all this information is going to get out there in the public. I have heard stories of women who went to talk to their faith leader, and then the next Sunday in a sermon, the person said, and there's another family that is just being really rocked by sexual misconduct. And so they felt exposed. And so how the church responds, it's really important. Partners, if they don't hear this issue talked about in their church, they're going to get the message, this isn't the safe place for me to come. So a church has to show, we want to be safe. We can hold your confidences, and we know how to help you. So that's one challenge. The next challenge is then the leaders or leadership or whoever, they're going to not understanding what this is, not understanding problematic sexual behavior, let alone what is betrayal and what does trauma look like? And so then responding poorly or not responding at all. So there's a whole lot of fear that a partner carries. And the fear sometimes is born to be true in terms of how they're responded to. So that's a challenge. Lack of support, lack of resources, all of those things can be a huge barrier. But most partners who are believers, who are, you know, in their faith communities, committed to their faith, they want to be able to go there to get support. That's. That's one of their first draws. But there's also that real fear of, I'm going to be not helped or totally misunderstood or blamed. So many partners will get these messages, what did you do or what have you not been doing that your husband would do this? And that's unfair. It's not true, it's not real. But it happens often enough that women are afraid of that.

Yeah, I was thinking in that regard, this is an area where both the betrayed spouse and the struggling or addicted spouse can be battling some of the same internal dialogue where they're saying to themselves, if only I was better, this wouldn't happen. And so for the person struggling, male or female, if you're the one struggling with unwanted sexual behavior, you're probably listening to an inner critic that says, well, if you were just a stronger Christian, if you just believed God enough, if you just just quoted in a scripture, you wouldn't make those bad choices. And so if that's what I'm dealing with, then going to my pastor and acknowledging I'm struggling with it is like admitting I'm not good at faith. My faith isn't strong enough, and that's why I'm having this problem. And I think in the same regard, a betrayed spouse can hear that they can feel like if I was just a good enough spouse in fill in the blank way, this wouldn't happen or this wouldn't have happened in my marriage. And if they're already kind of hearing that voice internally, I think there is a fear either, like you said, Dr. Steffens, that the staff member or pastor might say the same thing back to me, like, what did you do wrong? Or that by going to them, I am admitting it's because I wasn't good enough. And maybe that's coming more from, you know, I'm an enneagram3 and achiever and, you know, performer is kind of my go to in a lot of ways. But I think we can be in that performance mindset, even as a betrayed spouse of. I don't want to admit that I wasn't a good enough spouse. Even if that's, you know, we know from research and the way relationships work, that's not what drives addictive behavior. That can still be the voice that the betrayed spouse is listening to. And then maybe fears that in going to their pastor or church, it'll just be confirmed.

Part of trauma is trying to figure out what could I have done so that this bad thing wouldn't have happened. So they're already going to assume that I had some role to play in how this occurred to me. That's just a common trauma response. Well, if I hadn't been at that place at that time of day, I would not have been mugged. So it was my fault for. So we're trying to find a way to undo what has happened to begin with.

Yeah.

But then if they come in and they get those kinds of messages or subtle questions or how long have you guys not been doing well sexually together? Or something like that, that just, again, keeps more of that responsibility onto the partner.

Yeah.

Why would a partner go back to get help if that's the kind of response. Response she gets? But for some, they believe this is the only place I'm supposed to go.

Yeah.

And so sometimes they tolerate that for a longer period than I wish they would have to.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I think of, you know, some examples of. Some friends know when they're going through a hard time, that the wife feels like she can't come forward and say something because of the fear of the husband bashing or the. It's my job to. And I know it can be tied in some ways that, like, if my husband looks bad, then that makes us look bad as parents or as. But there is this fear of, like, I'm supposed to respect my spouse. I'm supposed to upkeep their reputation. And I've seen that play out where they just become a doormat. They make excuses to not say something, and yet they're getting railroaded emotionally when trauma is just getting dumped all over. So I think that that's one of the challenges I've seen is just that there's this. We work so hard to put on this face, if you will, of a marriage and what it looks like and how I love. And especially for wives, like, respect your husbands. That is so heavily pushed in the church. And obviously it's a biblical thing, but that gets distorted to think, like, I can't ever say something negative or say we're struggling or something like that. So I feel like that in some ways, even as simple as that, can trip up so many betrayed spouses.

And I would say, too, again, the church culture. Do you talk about pain? Do you talk about struggles? Do you give pictures of what that can look like and how God can redeem those situations rather than just showing the bright, shiny stories. Share stories of struggle because life is struggle.

Yep.

Yeah, true. Yeah. So on the flip side of that, Dr. Steffens, because we love the church, we believe in the church. We want the church to thrive and help as many people as possible around their community and around the world. So. So what encouragement would you give? What could faith communities, churches, leaders, what could they do to help betrayed spouses in maybe ways that they're not right now?

Get educated, you know, read a few books, talk to us again. I said that we're doing a training now at appsets to help people, specifically in religious faith communities. So there's resources out here. Sometimes I think church communities kind of get isolated and they think that we have to be do everything and do it all and take care of it just in house, you know, be find out who's doing this kind of work in your community.

Right.

Make relationships with them, find out that they're good people, trustworthy people that you can refer to. I think sometimes again, church leaders hang on and think that they need to be the one to counsel when perhaps that's certainly not their expertise. So know who's out there to refer to. Offer space for partners to come together and to share. Having trained group leaders like you guys do, pure desire, that's an excellent way of providing a safe space for partners to come and to get help and get good solid support. So just being willing to open up the possibility that they can be a safe place for healing to occur and refer out. Don't try to take on something you don't have the experience education to do know around you who's doing this and form relationships and let them help you.

Yeah. So, and just to be clear, if I understand this correctly, like what you're going to be doing with our staff on the religious leader, the betrayal trauma for religious leaders side, that's a couple of days of training and anyone who's interested could get those couple of days of training. And the goal being, not that we become experts like we joked about already, but really the goal of if someone comes to you in betrayal trauma, you have a framework to know what next steps to help them start on their journey. Is that accurate that that's the goal of it and that anyone could take that kind of training from appsats?

Yeah, that's accurate. If you are in church leadership and can demonstrate that you're at a level where you're providing leadership. Absolutely. They can go to the appsets website under Trainings, the trainings tab, and find out more information. But we really want to get that information out. We think that non clinicians can still understand what trauma is and to know how to be a first responder. Because churches are first responders. We're the place that people want to come when they're hurting. So just get a little extra training to help prepare you when that comes into your mind.

I love that idea that we're first responders for like relational and emotional damage. Like we're there on the scene and then just like a first responder does Their goal is to get them to the facility, to the care place. They're not gonna do it all. Like, they hand them off and that's what we want to do.

That's exactly what the church needs to do.

Yeah, it's funny. There's this. It's not funny. It's actually sad. But I think in leadership specific, really, at any level, but definitely in the church, that there's somehow, like, I'm not a good enough leader if I say I don't know or if I'm not the one offering that. And what's coming to mind. We had a medical emergency recently at a big event that we had. And, like, I'm not a first responder, you know, in the technical term, like, I'm not a doctor.

You've not been trained.

Not been trained. And like, it happened during worship at this event. I ran out and I was like, hey, we need a doctor. There happened to be a doctor standing right there in the middle of the lobby. I was like, oh, hey, man, come on up. Like, we need you. You know, and we get in and he's able to come in and start caring for this individual. And no one around me was like, why didn't you do something, Trevor? Why weren't you in there? Like, everyone was so grateful that there was someone who was trained in that situation and that's what they remembered. And I think that the same thing's true. I think of. Actually there's another example. Our friend Rodney Wright, who's on staff, says, I love Jesus, but I still take my car to a mechanic. Like, we don't bring the car into the middle of the sanctuary and lay hands on it. And then all of a sudden the oil gets changed and. Or something gets fixed. That it's okay to have trusted resources, as you're saying, and to not know you're admitting defeat if you need help from those trusted resources or those people who are more trained. Actually, people are going to be more grateful for you handing them off than they will be if you tried really hard and it didn't go well and things just blew up afterwards. So I think there has to be a humility that's mixed in there, which is really difficult for leaders. I know it. I'm in a leadership position. I feel that. But. But just overall, people are going to be more grateful if we can hand those people off to those who are trained. Okay. So, Barbara, you generously, and we really mean that, you generously reviewed and gave helpful feedback on our new betrayal and beyond resource that is Coming out. And again, we have greatly appreciated your time and your energy just looking over that, giving us feedback. In your opinion, just what you've observed in reading. What are some of the differences you've seen with the older version of Betrayal and Beyond? And then this new update. What have you observed?

Well, I think the first observation is the material was really, really good to begin with. There's good solid stuff there. What I'm seeing now is that the material is now partner sensitive and trauma informed. And so it starts with the trauma. It starts with what's just happened to the partner rather than why is he doing what he's doing and what is sex addiction? Because again, that's kind of more of the focus being on the person with the addiction. And then the partner has to learn all about that. And then, oh yeah, by the way, you're probably really hurting. So it starts with, man, you're here, woman, you're here because something horrible just happened to you. So here's some ways of starting to start feeling safe again, to start understanding that you're not crazy. Trauma has happened to you. This isn't something you did, it's something that happened to you. So giving them a way of understanding their own experience and then moving on into what is this thing that my husband, my loved ones been engaged in? Why is that there? What's my role in all of this? So giving that kind of information quicker to the partner I think is much more partner sensitive and trauma informed. And I am just so excited. I just want to say that Pure Desire has done an amazing job in providing support both for the person with the addiction and for the partner. And I have just been so grateful for the openness to allow it to add to what you've already been doing. That's been really good. So, yeah, much more partner sensitive early on.

So as a follow up question to that, you know, some of the pushback I anticipate we may get. I mean, the title already had it Betrayal and Beyond. You have the spouses that there's been some sort of discovery day, They've found something on his phone, came across web history, you know, whatever it was. And some spouses will just say, well, I don't feel betrayed, I don't feel like I'm in trauma. And now especially the workbook will be so, you know, for several months really focused in on your trauma, your pain. So what do you say to the spouse that feels like, well, this is his issue. I just want them to deal with it. Is it possible that some spouses do not find this to be a traumatic event, or is sometimes that actually a trauma response to just try to deflect and not feel? Or is it both? How would you speak to that? To the spouse who says, well, I don't feel betrayed. I'm not in trauma. I don't want that.

I would say it could be both. It could be a trauma response of, I just want to have this fixed. And that's how I know to respond to hard things. You take care of it. And this is your issue, not mine. Not all partners are traumatized, but I know in my study and other people who have done research with partners, you know, mine was 70%. I've seen as high as like 74% meet the criteria for post traumatic stress. So we know that the trauma is there. It just shows up different. But some, maybe because of other things that have happened in their life, they know how to manage these things and they don't experience the level of trauma symptoms as someone else. So I think a group leader is going to be flexible with some people and say, I understand that you may not be at this intensive a place, but there may still be some good information here that will be helpful for you as you are taking good care of yourself because this is something that happened to you. And yes, we want your loved one to get well, and that's his job. But we want to make sure too that you're getting everything you need so that you can be just as strong and healthy as you can be walking through this. But yes, it can show up either way.

Yeah, for sure.

Yeah. It sounds a little bit like the reply I would have to give to men who maybe felt like, well, I'm not an addict. Because that word addiction, I think, used to be more prevalent in our material. And now we, we still see addiction, but we try to broaden to say, if you struggle with an unwanted behavior. And I've had guys say, well, I don't think it's that big of a deal in my life. Should I do group? And I'll say, why not go through and just see, and if you're right that it's not that big of a struggle for you, we'll all praise God with you that it wasn't that big of a deal. And wouldn't you like to know? But it could be that in walking through it, you'll find it was deeper than you thought and there was maybe more things that you had conveniently hidden or hadn't really processed. And this group will help you deal with that. And if that's there, wouldn't you be thankful for the opportunity to deal with that as well? And I think that's what I hear you saying to the betrayed spouse is, hey, maybe you're not in much trauma. Why not walk through with a group of women and just listen and learn? And if at the end you find out you're not that traumatized, we'll all be glad with you. But if in going through it, you realize it's hitting you at some deeper places that you aren't even aware of, wouldn't you like to know and have people that could support you in dealing with that? So I just think that's great because I feel like I've said that on the, the struggler side for a long time, like, hey, give it a shot, because you're not going to lose in the long run. You're either going to find out, yeah, it wasn't that big of a deal, or you're going to get to deal with some good stuff in a very safe group. And either way, it's a positive for you in the long run.

Yeah. And I would say too, that the information is excellent and it's important, but in a group, the group is the primary place. It's that place of safety and being understood. And even if you're not experiencing things the same way, someone else, they're still going to get you. It's still going to be a safe place for you to process what it is like for you. So they don't have to be traumatized, but they will be heard, they will be cared for. They will have a community of people that they don't have to explain this to. And to me, that's priceless. When you're going through any kind of life challenge, if it's traumatic, then you're getting a lot more information that's going to help you. But you now have a community. At this retreat I was at, we were saying, we have our tribe, we don't have to explain things. We understand each other because we've been there.

Yeah.

And I mean, for someone who grew up without the language trauma, that wasn't something that was very clear to me or taught to me very early on. So when I was able to hear someone describe trauma in their own story, that made sense to me. It's like, oh, maybe I have experienced. Okay. Like, I didn't realize that. And so in some ways, just exposing yourself to that context of other people sharing their story may unlock some things in your own story where it's like, oh, I didn't realize that I had also experienced trauma like that or I've had experiences like that in my past. And so I think that can always be helpful. And I love that, that it's the community itself, not just the actual resource that actually brings the healing.

Yeah.

Well, in our podcast here, we've been talking a lot about faith communities and pastors and church leaders, but most of our listeners are not running churches or running faith organizations. So for them, what would you say? Dr. Steffens, why is it important to properly understand the impact of sexual betrayal and how to facilitate healing for betrayed partners? If someone's not on a church staff of some kind, why is it still helpful for them to know these things?

Because it can be your best friend. It could be the people who live next door. It can be a family member, it can be someone that you just encounter and have a relationship with, someone supportive, relationship with. So it's important that you can recognize the pain and not do the kinds of things we've talked about, where you're looking at, what did you do wrong or didn't do so that you're not giving pat answers and you can just sit and be a safe place for that person to start to talk about what just happened to them. We're all in relationships. And so being that that person who can sit and bear witness and to sit with, if you're trauma informed or your partner sensitive, you'll know how to do that, know how to just be with. You can't fix it, you can't undo it. But understanding what trauma looks like or what addiction can look like or betrayal, what that experience is, you can provide a sense of safety and encouragement and love that someone else might not be able to. They might just throw a quick answer, well, just do this and then you will miss the opportunity to be there and love on that individual. I think we all need to be trauma informed across the board, but especially in this area, especially for believers.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

It's helped me be a better friend. Even recently had an experience with a friend of mine who experienced, you know, some level of betrayal. And just even conversations around the new betrayal and beyond resource were helpful for me because thinking about how I can just sit in this space and not be afraid of emotion that's being perceived as negative that I don't have to run away or try to fix. I can just sit there and allow it to be because it's by itself the emotion is not bad. The emotion is because something bad has happened and it's okay. To be there. And so I found myself being less quick to rush in and give perspective or help or advice or whatever. Yeah, but just sit there and just be a friend. And honestly, I walked away, and I was like, I handled that okay. Like, that was all right, you know? And so I think even just on a friendship level, it can be helpful.

Absolutely.

Yeah. I think there are any number of topics that if. If we feel like we're clueless and someone comes to us with it, we can just kind of feel like a deer in the headlights of, oh, my word. Like, I. I don't even know what to say or do. And I think. Think any kind of sexual betrayal, sexual trauma, or on the other side, sexual addiction, acting out can feel a little foreign. And so if we're in that place, like, I don't know how I would respond if a friend came to me and said, I just found my husband's in an affair. What do I do? If we want to feel like I could provide compassion, I could listen. Well, I could guide. I think that's what we're after here. And I think the more the faith community just becomes comfortable with these responses and doing it in a way that does facilitate healing, it's just going to be better for everybody, not only for betrayed spouses, but for those that are struggling with unwanted sexual behavior. Because if. If we're giving people the care they need and kind of the right community and environment to move forward in their healing, then like we said towards the beginning, that's going to lead to marriages getting healed and actually coming back together because we're informed enough to help people take those steps. And if we just stay kind of in the dark, like, well, that's beyond me. I don't want to know anything, then we're not going to be able to help much when that situation comes up. And so just with the numbers of people that we know struggle with unwanted sexual behavior. I always say when I'm talking to pastors, if this percentage of men in your church struggle, then that same percent of women in your church who are married to these men are dealing with the effects of that and probably don't know what to do about it. I think the more we're just informed and know how to respond, we can help so many more people and. And really make the church the healing place that we all want it to be.

Amen. Absolutely. Dr. Steffens, we have really enjoyed this conversation. We really appreciate it. We appreciate the work that you do. And honestly, you were so generous in reviewing this material. And giving us feedback and input on it. It was so helpful in the conversation because, as I'm sure you do, we just want to help reach and help betrayed partners as best as we can in the most effective way that makes them feel safe and really gives them an opportunity to restore their marriage because they understand what has happened to them. And so thank you so much for your time, for your energy, both with the resource and with us today. Thanks for being here.

Oh, you're welcome. Thank thanks to you guys for your diligence and your care and your willingness to go into the hard places to do this kind of work with individuals.

Thank you. And wherever you're at on your journey, pure desire is here to help create a roadmap for your healing. If you or someone you know is impacted by sexual brokenness or betrayal trauma, go to PureDesire.org and begin the healing journey today. If this podcast is helpful on your journey, please share it with others. Make sure to subscribe to the podcast and drop us a review. It helps others find the podcast. Each week we're putting out new content to help you on the road to healing and freedom. And lastly, never stop being healthy.

Sam.