277 - FAQ #14: Singles & Unmarried

Welcome to the Pure Desire Podcast, helping you take back your life from unwanted sexual behavior and betrayal trauma.

Hello. Hello.

I am your host, Trevor Windsor, and you're listening to episode 277 of the Pure Desire Podcast. Here joining me as always, is my co host, Nick Stembo.

They're magically delicious.

Is that.

Is that Lucky Charms?

Yeah, Lucky Charms. That was kind of my best elf. I got it. What are those called? What is that what that is? No, the Lucky Charm guy is a.

Is he a leprechaun?

He's not an elf. Leprechaun. There we go.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Couldn't come up with the word leprechaun. That was my best leprechaun.

Hot take. Question. So Lucky Charm is really good. They also made a just a marshmallow version of that. Which one do you like more?

The other one. It's just a bowl of sugar, like I have to have.

They're both just a bowl of sugar.

Well, the cereal pieces will at least make you feel like you're getting some gravity brain, you know, something semi healthy, even though it's still coated in sugar. So.

Okay. Okay.

Well, I'm interested to see how this ties in. We had John Beguman, our donor development manager on, and he helped us talk through frequently asked questions, specifically to singles and those unmarried.

Yes. And the idea of like a sexually healthy, mature, abstaining from sexual activity, single, and he mentions it in the podcast, feels like a unicorn in today's sex saturated culture that we live in. And you know, Lucky Charms leprechauns are unique. They one time they did have unicorn hooves, were one of the marshmallows that it seems. It's just very unique and magical and that's Lucky Charms. But I think when it comes to healthy sexuality and singleness, it can feel like this isn't even real. Like just the world we live in. It's just we can almost accept that this is just the way it's going to be. But I think today that's the message we really try to emphasize is that there can be health in singleness. There can be some beautiful things about singleness. And if we're working on our recovery in singleness, there's some great things about that. And we don't have to feel like we're alone or the only one.

No. And I feel like one of the things that came through is that it really, your value is not lesser because you are single. And John is definitely a good ambassador for that. Before we get to today's episode, Nick, we want to make sure people are aware. It's more of one of the newer things we're doing and it's the church and individual membership. Let's talk about that for just a.

Yeah, I think what we're really trying to do is make it easy for churches to launch groups and to really catalyze raising up leaders. You know, having this be a part of your church system. And so that's the emphasis here. If you're getting to that point. You know, if your church just buys one book here and there or starts a group real sporadically, like membership may not be for you, but if, if you're seeing like man, every year we've got some leaders we want to train, we got resources we're using. Well, at that point membership becomes a no brainer because you're utilizing all of these tools and, and under the umbrella of membership we can get them to you more efficiently, more cost effectively and help you equip your leaders year in and year out in a way that really becomes just part of your training system. And so what we've tried to say is if you'll open the door, we'll do the heavy lifting, we'll provide the tools and membership really allows us to do that for your church.

Yep. So if you want to either sign up for an individual membership or get a church membership, you can just go to PureDesire.org membership subscribe to the podcast. We're on all the major platforms. Follow us on social media and this full episode will be up on YouTube. And with that, here's our conversation with John Beguman on frequently asked questions specific to singles and those unmarried. John Beguman AKA Johnny B. Around the office. Welcome.

I'm Officer Johnny. That's true.

Welcome back to the show man. Thanks for being here.

Thanks so much. It's a pleasure to be a part of truly.

Today we're answering some frequently asked questions that but they're specific to singles and those that are unmarried and as someone who's been through our clinical program is in recovery, has been in our groups who wanted to glean from your experience.

Yeah.

All the things but as a single guy too want to just press into that what it looks like for you. And we even talked about pre show that you're not this single recovery expert. You're just a guy who's on the journey. And so that's what we're tapping into today is just your experience.

So let's jump right into it. Maybe the question that's on the mind of a lot of singles in Our world. Like, can you be single and sexually healthy? Is that even a thing?

It's a great question. And honestly, I want to just start by saying is, are they unicorns? Like, are they out there? I'm not quite for sure. Seriously, it was definitely a huge question as I entered into a group with a bunch of other single dudes of like, whoa. Like, we're not having sex. And that's okay. So what is sexual health from the lens of a single person? And so I just say this. Like, yes, it does exist. Yes, it is out there. No, I do not need sex. And unlike my friends in high school told me I'm not going to explode if I don't masturbate. Like, that's crazy. A lot of really radical lies that exist in our culture regarding singleness and sexuality, desire and need, pleasure versus purpose. So, yes, it does exist.

Yeah. Well, I mean, let's just press into your experience. Like, what has that been like for you? I mean, you've been through that group. You've been through the clinical program. Like, just give people maybe a picture of what that looks like for you right now.

Yeah. I think one of the biggest lies that I believed was that simply masturbation, lust, fantasy, all these things would be a part of my life moving forward. And, like, they were just my thorn in my flesh. And I'm a single dude. And, you know, the. I would say the secondary lie. I think the first lie is that we're alone in addiction. And then the secondary lie is, and marriage will solve it, at least from a single perspective for sure. Of, like, once I'm having sex, I'll be fine. Like, sex is all I need. But the reality is going. I mean, we talk about here on the podcast, like, what happens for the sexless marriage or when sex is painful or all these other things exist. Like, just because you're in marriage doesn't mean you're having sex. So how do we begin to practice, like, this idea of healthy abstinence, this idea of healthy celibacy, and not that God's trying to rip us off. He's not. Right. He's trying to set us free. And yeah, God is good, and his design for sex is also good. But at the same time, like, the fire should be in the fireplace, and he's designed the fireplace of marriage to house sex. And so it's going, how do I not let sex burn down the house outside of the fireplace? It's a huge question.

Yeah. And I think whether someone is single or married, it's really confronting the same paradigm that really our culture gives us, that your sexual desire is stronger than you are, that your desires, your needs, your wants, whatever, it's just. It's greater than your ability to say no to it. And really, as Christ following people, we need to confront that lie and say no. We truly believe God has created us as people who can rise above temptation of any kind. But then in addition to that, Christ lives in us. And we don't say that in a trite way, just like, well, just trust Jesus more and it'll go away. We know there's more to it than that in terms of the process of overcoming those desires or overcoming maybe patterns that we've gotten stuck in. But I think we have to confront one of those fundamental lies that just says, this desire is greater than my ability to control it. And married people can have that lie plaguing them, but I think singles as well. And so that's where I think that question even comes from, is single people saying, well, I just. I don't even think it's possible. And we're here to say it is possible totally. That there are pathways to freedom. And we're talking about that today.

Yeah. I just want to say I am not defined by my sexuality totally. Like, that is not where my worth and value come from. But in a culture that says definition and identity of that are from your sexuality, that is a really hard thing to put aside and say, no, no, no. What if. What if that doesn't define me? What if, like, I would be wanted even if I'm not having sex? Like, that was a lie in high school. Like, man, no girl will ever want you if you're not willing to have sex with her.

Yeah.

And because you're not having sex, there's probably a good chance you're homosexual. Like, these are just constant narratives that I'm battling.

Yeah.

Then we're fear driven.

Absolutely. Absolutely.

Another thing, too, with the aspect of that is, you know, you talk about. You were talking about how when you get married, things get solved. Like, I've been married for seven years, and if my wife doesn't want to have sex with me, I feel the exact same way. Where it's like, oh, that lie can still seep in even when you're married. So again, it's not that marriage is like this magical gateway that once you enter, everything is all beautiful. It's like there are still struggles. Your brokenness follows you into it for sure. Okay, this is a question that was sent in from Raquel, and this is what she Said I've had two groups of ladies so far who have all been single of ages 26 to 60, which. That's amazing. That right there, that's an awesome group. And it's been hard to find and show how a single woman can live a full life. The expectation to find a guy and get married is big. But what if you don't get married? Did you fail in life? And I think John is a single guy who wants to get married. This is a real thing for men and women. So just from your experience, thoughts on that?

Yeah, first, I just want to empathize with the women in this group that she's addressing because, oh, my word, the pressures of culture, the pressures from the church, and the pressures from our own families can be overwhelming. I mean, I'm home, literally, this is two months ago. And my grandpa goes, so you're gonna let your two brothers beat you, huh? And I'm like, what are you talking about? And he. He literally motions over to their fiance's.

Yeah.

And basically saying, you're losing. Oh, my goodness. I'm like, the competition. All these things that are getting a wife right now. It's just like, you gotta be kidding me. But, like, it is those little comments. And I know that I'm not alone. And I also just want to say, because this title is also about the unmarried of, like, man, whether that's widows, there's a lot of different places that people might find themselves in singleness. And it's not just the before marriage, but could also be after or the loss of a marriage. So there's a lot of different factors that come into play. But I would say to those people, like, you are not lesser than. You are not second class. You are not cast out. In fact, Jesus and Paul, who I don't know, they did kind of incredible things in the Bible. They had single lives, and they were living fulfilled lives. So I wouldn't say that marriage is the ultimate. I think we're supposed to pursue a. What Jesus has for us and also, like, how to pursue lives that are fulfilled and joyful. And it might not be through sex, but what if it was through service? What if without the worries of marriage, like Paul talks about, like, I have more freedom to do the things that others don't and not to be abused or to give myself to everything. Like, Pete Cesaro talks about leading out of your singleness and protecting that and help having healthy boundaries. But it's just like, man, we can lead out of our singleness. I want. I want people to hear that. Because I don't believe that at times because I'm like, man, the pastor always stands on stage and says, and I want to shout out my super hot wife in the front row. And honestly, that's been.

We should do.

We should do an episode on that. And what we think is wrong with.

That, that's been so ingrained in me that honestly, there are times where I believe I won't be a leader until. And I hate that. But that is a real thing.

Well, I think even too, there's some stuff pushed in churches where, like, that makes you, like, you're on the JV team if you're single in your varsity, if, you know, if you get married, or like, and it even lies like, God will bring me my spouse when I'm ready, when I've done enough performance based. Which is so funny to me because I don't know about you guys, but I know a lot of people who are super unhealthy and terrible people that got married way longer before I did. Just because you got married doesn't mean you're like a relationship expert or that you're a great person. Like, that is not the qualifier. And so I think that paradigm has to shift. And I think that, you know, that's one of the things, too. As church leaders, we have to evaluate what sort of illustrations, what sort of voices and faces are we putting on the stage, and are we representing what it looks like to be a Christian individual, not just people who are married.

And it's an area where I think the church and culture kind of back up the same message of marriage being the goal, or at least a significant relationship being the goal. I mean, how many movies is the main character in some kind of love pursuit totally to capture the girl or the guy, vice versa. You know, it just, It's. It's a message we hear so much that I do think we can devalue anything that isn't that. And yet the truth is, in every group I've led where they're single and married guys, the married guys are envying the single guys because they're not going through the pain of the betrayal and the wife being so mad. And the single guys are envying the married guys, going, if only I was married, and I'd fix it. And the truth is, they're both right. Like, there's both advantages to that season. And that's what I would say to singles. Like, you have advantages and lean into those. And yeah, there's maybe things you don't have. But, like, in Any area of life. If we're sitting around focusing on what we don't have, it's not going to lead to good things for us. But if we do focus in on, what are those advantages I do have? I mean, I think of my single friends and it's like, you know, if I think of traveling to something, I'm immediately multiplying it by 6 because of my family, like, I gotta go place. But if I'm a single guy, it's like, hey, I want to go visit this person. Go to that thing, go serve at my church, just like you do it. And I'd say to that single man or woman, like, lean into those opportunities. Celebrate what you have in life and in the right time or way, if God leads you in a marriage, you'll celebrate that too. And then when you're married, you'll look at things that, man, I wish I was single in those ways. But when you're married, you'll lean into the advantages of married life. So just celebrate the season you're in and trust that God knows how long that season will be.

My therapist said something to me recently that, that if you focus only on the area of life, you don't have control. You'll actually lose control in the areas of life where you have it. And I think that that applies to the situation too, that if you're so focused on relationships and what you don't have, you lose sight of what God's given you and blessed you with.

I just want to bring people into just a moment from a single perspective that I wrestle with. Saturday morning comes and I don't have the kids games or the kids sports to go to or.

Which means you got to sleep.

I got to sleep in. I'm not waking up to somebody else in my bed. I'm not waking up and making coffee or receiving whatever. I'm just waking up and getting to spend time with God. And there are those moments where I'm going, God, what are you doing? Because I feel so alone here. Yeah, like, God, I want and I desire not just sex and marriage, but marriage itself and deep relationship, full of intimacy. And yet it's funny because from a married perspective, they're going, wait, you had time alone?

You slept until 10:30?

What's that?

Life. And so it's been really healthy for me.

You drank your coffee while it was hot.

It's been really healthy for me to be in community with those who are married with kids. And then I'm going, man, I need to cherish this moment. Because These moments won't last forever, but it's a tension. Right.

It doesn't make it bad to want to be married, you know, And I think that that, to Raquel's question, like, you're not failing, but it's also not bad to want a desire to have that.

Yeah, so true. Well, let's lean into another area of tension that I think many single people face, especially if they've battled unwanted sexual behav behaviors, pornography, lust, whatever, that they're wondering, how healthy do I need to be before I should pursue relationship. And so, John, in your opinion, what do you think? Is it 90 days sobriety, six months, a year? Decades? What kind of framework do you think about? And when is someone emotionally, relationally, spiritually ready to date in a healthy way?

Such a big question. And I think this is a question that has a lot of ambiguity to it. So again, I just want to acknowledge that I don't hold deep the perfect answer, but I'd love to share some of my experience and then just where I'm at today. Stepping into group. I think this was the greatest question that me and the three other single guys who were all pursuing ministry were asking of how healthy is healthy enough? The organization that they were with, which I won't mention by name, had said six months. They had literally put six months. I remember going, that's ridiculous. I'm like, there is Nobody in the U.S. if 68% of men are struggling, that could say that they've gone six months, months without masturbation, relapse to pornography, fantasy, all. I'm like, that's ridiculous. That's not possible. And now, of course, that was a place where I'm like, is freedom really possible? So their idea was six months. I know that for a lot of people there's this idea of 90 days and the brain changing in and around 90 days and new neuropathways, which, again, I'm not here to back up or to deny, but just to say that's also out there. And so that was kind of the tension of, is it 90 days? Is it six months? But I just say this. I think something that I've learned while working here at Pure Desire is that recovery in general is not a destination. It is simply a direction. That destination is one day fully glory as we step into the presence of Christ and we're being made completely new. But until then, we are in the direction. And so I would ask single guys or gals a lot of questions regarding what do you have in place for yourself personally, regarding Group accountability, relationships with others, healthy routines and patterns that would allow you to continue in the direction and then begin to ask the questions. What would it look like to bring somebody else into that process? To what level do you share? To what level is safe? And I know we're going to talk about that a little bit later. And so I don't know if there's a magic number, and I'm not here to put a magic number on it, but I would be asking a lot of questions. So instead of a number, let's ask some questions about where you're at.

And we've talked about that a lot, like internally at events on the podcast, that ultimately it's probably not a bad idea to have some level of sobriety under your belt. I mean, that goes without saying. But again, if you're in recovery or you're in group and you're pursuing healing or you're in counseling, that's a great starting place. And so I think that focused on where you're headed, because I think even when you're married and you're in, let's say, a seven pillars or unraveled group and you're looking at relapse, you do keep track of how many days it's been, but the number of days isn't necessarily what is the indicator of health? The indicator, at least in my experience, the indicator of health is if a lapse or relapse happens, how do I respond in that moment? And then what action steps do I take to better beef out my three circles and my relapse prevention? Who am I being honest with? I think that's more of an indication than a number is.

Yeah. To combine what you guys said, I think it's not destination, but trajectory. And I do think in that regard, six months is a healthy number to look at. In terms of do I have six months of consistent trajectory towards a healthier me that I'm regularly in group, I'm doing work on myself, I'm exploring my patterns, I'm establishing healthier boundaries. And if you're in that kind of place, like, okay, there's momentum here versus if you lean into that for a month and then you flake out for a month and come back for a couple, like, if you're still just in this continual binge purge cycle, you're probably not really ready to engage with someone else in that kind of a pattern. So I do talk about six months more from that trajectory. And also I would add, I think there is something significance about being six months free of pornography. Especially because of the way that it shapes our brain for comparison. For sexualizing relationships, we may still be battling some old patterns of acting out with masturbation or even battling some fantasy. I think those things may take a while, but if we can have a six month timeframe where there hasn't been those binges back into porn, I think we're going to be able to interact with another person being less likely. Now, it's not. There's no perfect line here or, you know, no, again, there's no destination like, oh, I'm never going to be tempted to sexualize a relationship, but I at least think you'll be at a healthier place of navigating. Are the desires I'm feeling because I truly like this person and I'm feeling drawn to them, or is it just a potential outlet of these desires I've been battling? So prior to six months that that's just a timeframe I think can create enough brain health that you'll be moving towards relationship for the right reasons.

Yeah, so, and this is even my own story before I got married. But how do you process through a relationship ending because of negative sexual history or even current negative sexual brokenness, you know, behaviors. How do we process that and the shame that tends to come with that?

It's a great question. And I mean, I've got a couple thoughts. I just want to say personally that I have never experienced this. Yeah, I've never looked at somebody and said, hey, I'm struggling with pornography or masturbation. And they go, oh yeah, I'm out, I'm out. But I do want to share a friend's story. Not by name, but a friend's story. He mentioned that as he was sharing, they were soon to be engaged. They weren't engaged currently. So in the dating process, he was sharing some of his story, his struggle with pornography, his struggle with masturbation, his struggle with fantasy. And she looked at him and said, is there anything else? She said, no. She said, wow, thank you so much for sharing. She goes, it is so cool to watch the man in whom you're becoming and I'm so grateful that you would share that with me. And he goes, it was in that moment that encountering the radical grace that she gave, he's like, this is it. But again, that's not everybody's story.

Yeah, that's a rare story. Right.

For some people, or maybe most people, it's usually the opposite. And I think the question is really whether that's for the single gal or the single guy. That's now finding out that the pornography is being used in the relationship of like, what do I do? And Nick, I'd like to default to you. Like, what would happen if, let's say your daughter begins dating somebody and they tell her that they're watching porn? Like, what would you advise your own daughter to do?

Nick wasn't ready for this question. Let's go.

I think in those situations, it does depend on where the relationship is at. And. And again, what trajectory do you see in that person's life of if. If it comes out and my daughter was dating someone and they're just casual about it, like, yeah, you know, I do. Who doesn't? It's not a big deal. And if it bugs you, I'll not tell you or not show you. That'd be like red flag danger, you know, when she and I have had conversations just about what it does to the brain and relationships. And I think she's pretty educated in that. Versus, if they're in a serious relationship, they're engaged and someone shares just what your friend did to. Really, obviously we need to navigate how we feel about that, what steps we want to take together, what kind of commitments we would ask for to feel safe in the relationship. But every story is unique. And I would say to that situation, better to have it come out pre marriage than after marriage. I mean, if it did lead to the end of the relationship, it's better that that happened pre marriage. Trust me, the complications added post marriage, if that comes out and it ends and some people have felt that pain and. And I think there's a likelihood if we could deal with it pre marriage, it may be really messy, but there may also be opportunities to work on growth and healing together. And when the marriage, if that marriage still happens, and we've heard a lot of these stories, how beautiful it can be because it's truly based on knowledge of truth of one another and not just I presented my best self and fooled them into marrying me. But there's all this junk they don't know that comes out later. So on the flip side, I just say, if you're in that place where it's ended the relationship, obviously we want to be aware of shame and not letting shame drive us, that that becomes our identity or we find our worth in I'm worthless because I did this. But on the other hand, I do think it's appropriate to allow the magnitude of that to convince us of our need for healing and growth. If we realize like, wow, something I've minimized or Just said, ah, it's not a big deal. It'll get better later in life. Actually ended a relationship I valued. That ought to communicate to my brain, my body, like, I need to face this and not let it be something that undermines a relationship. So every situation is different, but I think there are just things like that. You look at, where's the relationship at, how much do they know? And where could God use that redemptively to bring authenticity and true intimacy, not just sexual intimacy, but true intimacy into a relationship? Because that's what ultimately marriage is all about.

Yeah. And, I mean, I like looking back the relationship for me, that ended because of this. Like, I can't blame her for that decision. Like, she didn't want to spend her future with me. Like, that's okay. Like, it saved her from a lot of pain. And I totally get that. You know, for me, it was something that helped kickstart that motivation a little bit more, though it took a couple more iterations in my story. But I also. Do I see it that the Lord down the road, I realized it was a gift to me that my life is in a different place now because of, you know, that decision that she had made. But I think. And we'd say this all the time, like, you have to feel your emotions. You have to. You cannot stuff this or run away from it. Or, like, I remember when that happened. I lost £20 in two weeks. And I just laid in bed for two weeks and cried the whole time. Like, and that was really, really hard. But I was grateful that I had even had that space to just grieve, because that's what was happening. And so don't put on a brave face and try to pretend like nothing, you know, happened. Like, you got a feel to heal is one of the things we say here.

So that's a huge asset, I was gonna say. And let it. Yeah. Truly be that potentially motivation or just a driver to real change. Like, as you're seeing your brokenness from a new perspective, like, don't just push it away, because I think I'm quick just again, to disassociate, to deny, to numb. But, like, man, see it for what it is. Like, if this is helping you define the problem and what you have, like, that's a good step. That's a big step towards then finding a way in which to solve it. So that's good.

Yeah. Amen. We know that you don't have to be married to experience betrayal, trauma. So if someone who is single feels they've been Betrayed in a relationship, should they still work on healing that, or is that only something to worry about for married couples?

Oh, man. I just. I've watched singles and dating people go through this, and the betrayal element of a dating relationship is radically different because there isn't this bedrock of commitment regarding marriage. It's like, do I stay or do I go? Do I stick it out, or do I just bail right now? And I can just say this personally, from one relationship in which I'm thinking of the courage she took to say yes to. Watching him continue to walk through healing is radically blessing their relationship now. But that doesn't have to be your story. And I just want to say, for the single gal or single guy who's experienced this, like, you don't have to be the hero that says, I'm sticking it out and I'm seeing it through. Like, man, there are all different kinds of paths. And I would just say, man, lean in, ask God, where should I be? And give me discernment, give me wisdom. Am I to walk this out? Am I to leave? Am I to maybe take some time off and allow them to pursue healing and then come back when that trajectory or, you know, direction is maybe more established? I would say this. You don't have to be their solution. I think we want to help. And maybe there's elements of codependency, of just, like, I can solve them and I can fix them and all of these different things, but just know that it is their journey, and they first and foremost need to pursue God, and you, first and foremost, need to pursue God, and in doing that, then come to this decision of, can we do this together? And so, yeah, I would say this. I've seen couples who have walked through that be really blessed, but also, please don't have to be the hero.

Well, and regardless of if you stay in that relationship or not, if you've experienced sexual betrayal, healing is necessary for you. Like, whether you stay in that relationship or not, your future will be impacted and in a lot of ways directed by your decision to get healing or not, whether it's now or later, like, eventually you're gonna have to heal from that. And I think that that's just something as we grow in our development and health in general, as we start to see what are those traumatic events or those painful moments we experience in life, what they taught us, whether we, you know, whether they're true or not, I think it's really important. So if you're single and you've experienced sexual betrayal, I think the Answer is absolutely yes. Prioritize your own healing, whether you stay in that relationship or not.

Yeah. I think of the two words, fear or wisdom. I think anytime we experience a kind of trauma and betrayal as a kind of trauma, it can create for us a lot of fear. And that's not to say, well, you shouldn't, that's a normal response. But if we're always bringing that fear into the next relationship, we're actually going to be incapacitated from having the depth of relationship that we really want to have. And so in dealing with maybe what's created all this fear, and it again, may be totally normal, logical fear, fear of being hurt, fear of being betrayed, fear of being tricked, fear of being duped. All those fears are normal. But if I'm. It's like I've got these landmines in my soul, if I've just left them there in that fear zone. We want to, through healing, see those translated into wisdom. That there does come wisdom of, Boy, I need to be self aware of my reactions. I need to be able to ask honest questions if I'm seeing something that seems inconsistent in that person or, or that causes me concern and not just in the past. Maybe they just ignored that or kind of this blissful like, oh, no, he's perfect and wonderful. Now there's wisdom of. I needed wisdom to ask that question and not let fear keep us from having those conversations. So if you're single and find that you're entering into relationships with kind of this fear bent of I don't want to be hurt again, that's, again, that's normal to feel. But if you could work through some healing, then you might be entering into those relationships with wisdom of. I'm aware of what hurt me in the past, but also it's not driving me in the present and I'm able to maybe enter into a better relationship in the future.

Yeah.

So good, Nick.

So we've talked about this a little bit, but I want to press in even deeper. What does sexual health look like for someone who is not having sex? So single, unmarried, engaged. If our sexuality really is part of our holistic self, how do we express that aspect of our sexuality in a healthy way as a single huge question?

Nick, I was so blessed by a conversation we had recently. Sorry, I'm not pinning this.

I thought you were going to ask. I'm like, oh, I wasn't ready.

You first.

You first.

No, I was blessed by a conversation that Nick and I had regarding the idea of substance versus process addictions. This Idea of, I think as a single, I was just like, I just need to get away from sex. I need to like, stop doing sexual things. But it's just like men. And no, this is a process addiction. We can't remove our sexuality. We can't just pull it out of us. Like, it is a part of being whole and healthy.

Yeah.

And so, I don't know, I just had this analogy recently of like this idea of a river that's flowing. Like you're not trying to stop the water, you're not trying to drain the river. And in fact, oftentimes this river looks like it's been flooded. As our healthy, our healthy sexuality isn't healthy and it's killing and destroying things on the bank. And a river that's flooded literally destroys. But a river that is put back in its banks nourishes everything. Everything flourishes. And we're not trying to dam the river.

Such an image, guy. I love it. Just, I'm here for it.

We're not trying to dam the river. We're allowing this river to flow. And so it's going, how does that flow healthily and what does that look like? And so I think that's the question.

Yeah.

I love Jay Stringer's push for sensuality over sexuality because I think as a single, that's something I can enjoy. I remember taking a walk probably last fall in Portland and walking alongside and going, wow, like, like the flowers, like the flowers are incredible. And just sitting on a bench and feeling like the mist of the rain like, hit my skin and just enjoying the present moment and watching a dad and his son ride bikes in the park and just enjoying it. How do I live the most fulfilled and the most joy filled life right now? I don't want to live like, I'm waiting. Like, that's another Pete Scazaro quote. Don't live like you're waiting. Get out there and enjoy the life in which you've been given. And I would say this, as my waters that were flooded have come back into the river, I've now began to not just get freedom from, but freedom for. And in my singleness, I now get to lead other groups of single young adults saying, this could be the greatest gift you give your wife before marriage, that you would get your mess figured out and bless her and bless the marriage and bless your family and bless generations to come again. Can you see it? And oftentimes these guys are like, I do. But again, healthy sexuality from a single seems like a paradox. It's going, how Can I have healthy sexuality if I'm not having sex? It's just like you can, but there are different and other ways in which it's expressed.

Yeah, you referenced Jay Stringer and I think he's the one that has said so. Well, that desire is not the enemy. We could say misplaced desire is an enemy, but desire is God given. Desire is often connected to legitimate, true, deep needs. And so if we're realizing like, man, I've got this desire for masturbation and to feel pleasure, it's basically the desire for pleasure is not wrong. What are other healthy ways I could experience pleasure? Or maybe I'm feeling tempted to reach out for porn or to go to those old sites like we see the desires maybe for connection or for being soothed or comforted over something difficult that I can't really deal with. And just being able to recognize like, I've got a good desire here. How can I take it in a proper way? In some ways that is experiencing, I think a male sexual being and a female sexual being may have different outcomes of where they would go with those desires in a God honoring way, but it would still be connected to how God wired the male brain to work and how testosterone impacts us. And one of the things we're clear to say in God's design, there are differences between men and women. And so the way that you express and live out those desires in a healthy way might be very unique to your maleness or your femaleness. And in a sense that is our sexuality being expressed. And so looking at the desire and then just I think with the help of God and others saying, what are the healthy outlets or places to take that desire?

Yeah, it's so good. I mean, I think about the three circles tool and just like, what does health look like? Literally, we're going back through it. And just last night I wrote down taking a hike. Man, that so engages so much of my senses as well as just my ability to pursue silence and solitude and time alone with God. I remember taking a hike last fall. I'm just like, I'm the only one on this trail, like, what is this? And just going, but like, God, you're here with me. And those are hard moments again, Trevor, like you said, like, there are tensions to hold because I'm like, oh my gosh, I wish I had this girlfriend or my wife to be like taking photos in this beautiful place. And yet here I am alone and. But at the same time, like, but I'm not alone. And there are so many times in My aloneness where I literally find myself saying out loud, God, I trust you, because I don't believe it. But man, as I say it again, I'm going heart, believe this, believe that he's trustworthy, believe that his timing is good, believe that his timing is perfect. Because I know what I want and desire. And I loved your thought of, like, how do we put those in right place? Like, I have desires and all of a sudden my desire for connection looks like me making a ton of phone calls. If you ask any of my friends, like, John's always on the phone because I desire intimacy. And it doesn't have to look like sexual and physical intimacy, but it can look like emotional and spiritual intimacy with close friends. So how do you pursue community? How do you create moments of hospitality where you're giving of yourself away and creating real intimacy that's not just sexual?

And I think you're tapping into it. I'll just, I'll say this quickly. Our friend Ben Bennett talks. Longings that we all have. And so for you, like, you know, you wake up in the morning sometimes and you feel lonely. That's a longing to feel connected or to belong. And so how do you have those me, those needs met is I think, a part of expressing that. Even though it can manifest into unhealthy sexual behaviors, that is still a true longing that we've been given. So finding other ways to pursue it.

I think it's good to remember whether you're married or single, we all have to understand desires and what they lead us to. Like, that's a process. What you were saying of, of telling yourself the truth, knowing what you need to believe. Like, we all have to go through that process. So if you're engaging in that as a single person, it's like, good for you because that's just a process you'll continue the rest of your life, single or married. So it's not exclusive to singles. There another million dollar question. I feel like that we hear a lot. This is from Aidan, who wrote and said, if you're dating someone and you relapse, do you tell them?

Yeah, I would just say this. I've had to instruct a lot of guys in this and oftentimes I think we're looking for some mark of sobriety, some mark of health before inviting somebody else in so that they can trust. If we're just bringing them into any and every moment, oh my gosh. It's not staggered disclosure, but it probably feels like it. For those who are in dating relationships of just Like, I'm getting hit again and again and again. And one of the swords that is just so impactful to me that I think has helped shape this is. A friend one time called me, and she said, john, I just sat in a car for five hours as I was the first person he's ever told about his struggle with pornography.

Wow.

Oh, my goodness, the trauma. She's like, am I enough? I don't understand. Like, is our relationship five hours after church, is our relationship gonna make it? And I felt so bad for her and for him. He's probably, again, feeling this idea of freedom, but, man, he is literally destroying his relationship, whether he knows it or not. It's just, like, because he didn't have guys and he wasn't in process and he wasn't working through things. He was basically looking at her and saying, help me. And so if you're trying to share a relapse from the lens of wanting her to meet or be your solution, no, please do not share that.

For sure. Yeah, yeah, I think. I mean, my. This is my perspective feel, please. If you guys disagree, but I would say, yes, you should share that. And I think a lot of us, I disagree. Okay, good. This is great. But, like, I think, well, the parameters.

For me are depends.

Like, and I guess it could depend for sure. I think overall, they do. They do need to know. Like, it's not something that you should keep from them. And again, they're making decisions every day about their future. Do they want to stay with you? Do they not? And if you're not telling them about. About this, about this struggle, and again, this is maybe where we could differ on, like, how often you share or when you share what you share. But I really do think they need to know, because if you get to a point where you're asking this person to marry you and then you get married and then it comes out later, that's gonna cause even more damage. So, yeah, that's maybe more where I come from.

Yeah. Yeah. To me, it's a big. It depends. And I'm jotting down all these notes as John is talking, because I totally agree. Like, in terms of that dating relationship, this should not be your counselor. This person is not your healer. This person is not even your accountability partner. And they also should not be the first person you tell. And I would say even the same about a relapse. They shouldn't be the first person you tell about a relapse. And this also shouldn't be the first thing you tell them about your struggle. Like, hey, by the way, last night, this happened. If that comes without context or prior conversation, I think that's more traumatic or damaging. And so the principle I kind of have, like, where do we have those conversations where I start to reveal my past brokenness and steps I'm taking towards healing? A lot of that is gauging the seriousness of the relationship. How quickly is it moving? How likely is this going to be a person I might consider committing my life to? And I always say kind of jokingly, like, the first date's too soon and the wedding night's too late, but in between, there. Somewhere in there, there's a lot of gray area depending on just what kind of connection is developing. And so that's my encouragement that at some point, as you're moving towards a potential marriage commitment, there needs to be an honest conversation. Again, it shouldn't be the first person you've you talked to. Hopefully you've already been in group, you've been processing your story, you've been making progress. But to open that door to say, I feel like you need to know my story, that's totally appropriate in a dating relationship. And then based on that reaction in that conversation, they may have some things they feel like, well, if you're struggling, I would like to know. I feel like I need to know how often this is happening. Where others might say, you know what? If you. I'm proud of you for this journey, but until we're like to engagement or until we're married, like, that's. I don't think I'm the person you should be telling. You need to honor that. But every relationship will be different. I think the goal should be intimacy, connection, honesty. But the timing, the pacing of that will be different in every relationship.

I would say interpret just to echo what you said. I mean, as I get to walk with single guys and they're like, can I pursue her? Can I not? Or I am, and what do I do? Yeah, I mean, there's definitely a. Have you had the conversation with her regarding where you've been and where you currently are at? So I agree. I think whether that's a gal or a guy, they deserve to know where you are. They deserve to know what they're pursuing. They shouldn't be led blindly, and they shouldn't then be surprised later on. But at the same time, regarding the idea of, like, do you share the relapse? That's another conversation. And I think you give them the freedom of choice. Do they want to know?

But again, this question by itself emphasizes the Importance of being in recovery and having that trajectory in place. Because I can tell you what, if you do end up having that conversation where you're sharing a relapse, if you're in group, that conversation will go different than if you're not in group and not pursuing recovery. For sure. Extension of this question in recovery. We obviously talked about it even just a second ago. Honesty is important. Is there such a thing? And I love that I'm asking John Beguman this question because John Beguman is the too much sharing guy. But is there such a thing as too much sharing? And not just necessarily with a boyfriend or a girlfriend or a fiance, but even with our community people around us? What does honesty look like? And is there too much sharing?

Is it obvious that I'm uncomfortable in my seat? I don't know. Well, first I wanted to highlight a conversation we had because I think this was really helpful and something I'm currently in process of. This isn't something I have figured out, but this is something I'm moving towards is how do you create similarly, almost like a three circle tool of who on the outside can know that I work for Pure Desire? And I've had this story. Who in the middle section has a deeper understanding of my story? And then who is that center where they know everything. They know the fantasies, the deep sexual secrets, the top 10 worst painful moments. And I'm willing to bring them in. And so that's a process I'm currently moving in. So I would say yes, I think there is too much sharing. In fact, I've done it all the time. And even my roommate recently is just like, John, when you share your story, it's like you're blowing past. There's this road that's just north of my house and there's literally speed bumps along the way. And basically I'm just like 60 miles an hour over every single speed bump. And like, hey, I hope the car makes it at the end of the road. I hope it's still intact and people are like, what just happened? How did we get here? And so this is something I'm currently learning of man, how do I go 25 miles an hour? Slow down, hey, is this okay? And basically taking a survey of this person in this situation, in this moment, in this context. So I've definitely been the guy of like. Because part of my pain was nobody said anything. I grew up in a Christian home where pornography was never mentioned until I was 18.

It always.

The only thing it took was God and a lot of other things. But somebody sharing their story. And so in my mind, if I share my story, God could move that people might get free. And that can be. But at the same time, like I'm learning in grace to move in healthy ways. Not just that 60 mile an hour car down the road over speed bumps.

I think of what our friends Dan and Jen Howey said in talking to their children about their adult kids about their story. They said, read the room, read the room. Be aware of like, how are they reacting, how are they responding? And I think as you're talking about those circles of friendship, of relationship, it is a question of how much trust has been built with this person. Do I feel they are a trustworthy person? And maybe we open that door and share a little bit of our story and if they're like, oh cool, thanks for sharing and they kind of change the subject like, okay, that's cool, maybe there's too much too soon, that's great. But if they lean into like wow and they maybe reveal a little bit of their story and now we're able to take those steps. I think we just, we have to be aware of just what is a relationship ready to handle and that we, you know, we not try to drive a 6 ton Mack truck over a little straw bridge if it's not ready for that. We've got to know that the relationship can handle the level of honesty.

Absolutely.

Since you're referencing a conversation we had, I'll reference another one we had when John first started at Pure Desire. He hadn't even moved here yet. And we get on a zoom call and you're just like, tell me your story. And I'm like, no, I'm not gonna tell you my story. I don't know you. I'm excited you're on staff, but like we're not there yet. Like our relationship will develop and I'll share as it, you know, as I get comfortable. And that for me is whether people believe me or not is proof that I have developed and grown because I used to just share it like, you know, and that's where you and I think have so many connections is. Cause I have the same sort of struggle with that where everyone's in the inner circle, you know, and knows everything. But what I've even learned, that's the story end of that story. In extension of that, what I've learned is I even have some of my closest friends are not necessarily my safest friends that I have some friends like Justin, our producer, knows everything about my life, but I have other friends Who I would consider maybe if they're not in the inner circle of my friends, they're on like the outskirts of that. Even though I talk to them all the time, I still, they're just not safe. And that's okay. Like, I've learned that sometimes I share emotional things and those get dismissed or bypassed or whatever. It's like, well, okay, I'll stop sharing that with you. And that's okay.

And they're great people. Absolutely.

And I think just wisdom and discernment on that is okay. But yeah, absolutely, too much sharing is possible.

You know, John, one of the questions we get a lot from singles is about a tool that we use in almost all of our groups called the recovery action plan or for betrayed spouses, a safety plan, which often is contingent on a commitment we're making to a spouse about if I relapse or if I go back to that place. Here are pre agreed upon steps I'm going to take for my recovery to help you find safety. And a lot of the language, though, can be about relationships. So how does a single person who doesn't have a spouse use this tool of a recovery action plan? What are ways that they could implement it in their life?

Yeah, First, I just want to thank Jason, my counselor, because I think he led us really well through the recovery clinician. J.C. carson. Yeah, PD clinician. I think he led us really well through this process as singles. Is he kind of mapped out what that could be like? Level 1, Level 2, Level 3, Level 4, and just some of the consequences, whether that was sleeping on the floor or a cold shower or running a mile and not necessarily things out of punishment. Again, I know this tool can get some bad raps of, oh my gosh, you're just whipping yourself for your negative behavior. But it's just like, no, no. I'm trying to build new neurological pathways that when I do X, Y happens and I don't want Y to happen, and so I'm not going to do X. Yeah. And this was such a hard but good tool for me. I mean, in the first 10 months of counseling, I didn't have a relapse, but there was a lot of lapses. There was nights where I was spending a night or two on the floor because I had gone back to a behavior and those guardrails that I didn't want to go to and I was being honest. But I will say this, this tool is ridiculously hard to implement for singles because the level of accountability just isn't there. I mean, whether you're meeting potentially once a week. And if that's online, it's just like, well, how do we know if you slept on the floor? And so often we'll ask guys to send in a photo. Just send in a photo of, like, you know, like, where you're sleeping. But there again, like, they don't really have anybody holding them accountable. There isn't this wife who's looking over their shoulder or this parent. And so I've really wrestled with this in leading single groups because I'm like, man, we can implement it, but what does it look like to follow through? And how do you get that guy over the hurdle? I just feel like I'm punishing myself. But I would say the first couple of weeks of them implementing it and beginning to use it, which is a new thing, is really beautiful of like, whoa. Like, my choices do have tangible consequences, not just spiritual, that are unseen.

And I think that that's the point of using this as a single is Maybe it's not as clean of a process as someone who has a spouse and who experiences those consequences firsthand, but it's the training ourselves to feel that when I do this, there are negative consequences, and there are things or steps I need to take toward restoration or toward rebuilding trust with my community. So in and of itself, even though it may be really challenging, it's the exercising of it that I think really brings that new. As you were talking about the rewiring.

Yeah. I think some of the pushback I've heard from single group members will be like, you know, this whole recovery action plan and all my consequences, like, it makes the relapse such a big deal. And all these things I have to do. And my response is to say, yeah, because in our struggle, one of the things our brain has been doing so that we can live with ourselves is telling us over and over, it's not that big of a deal. No one's being hurt. You're just single. And if we're gonna make changes, we actually have to change that thought pattern to say it's a big deal. Because believe me, if you reveal a relapse in marriage, it's a pretty big deal. It's gonna be a couple of weeks at least of some intense stuff. It's maybe gonna be months of working through recovery on that. It's a big deal. And so for a single guy to let yourself feel it of like, I have to do all this stuff that I committed to my group to do. I have to take all these actions. It's just. It's a ton. Yeah. And it's like letting yourself kind of feel the magnitude of what happened, that it's a big deal because in marriage, like I said, we naturally get some of that. And a married gal say, yeah, it's a really big deal and we don't want it to happen. So some of it's just, I think having that conversation together and, and what I was saying in there, make those commitments to your group and you make them ahead of time. You say, I want this to matter. And so if I relapse, here are my plans. And it's not going to be easy for me. It's probably going to take me a couple of weeks to do these. Well, that's then big enough that your brain will go, okay, this matters. You know, I think about too, when I talk to group members about like, are you tempted to use illegal drugs? And they're like, well, no, not really. I'm like, well, why not? Like, well, I've never really done that. But it's illegal. I could get arrested. It's like, yeah, it's because you know what a big consequence. There could be a price to pay. You're not even that tempted by it now. Our sexual struggles are more difficult because we have entered into them. There is a taste that we've gotten that we know we like it.

And hiddenness.

Yeah. But there also hasn't been any real fear of consequence. Like, yeah, well, you know, I feel bad. I tell my group, I move on. If that's all that ever happened with, like cocaine. And we're seeing, ironically seeing this in Oregon right now with the way we've decriminalized drugs, like a lot more people do drugs because there's no real consequences. So in some ways our brain works that way. And letting it be a big deal, as hard as that is, actually is what can change your brain.

Yep.

So I just wanted to share this. I know a friend who, in disclosing to what was then a fiance, one of the lies that he had believed within the group was, this doesn't hurt anybody. This doesn't hurt anybody. It's not a big deal.

To your point here, minimize.

And it was in a two and a half hour conversation as she sobbed on the floor, that the lie was shattered, hopefully forever. As he said, I will never again believe that this doesn't impact anybody. And I think singles, whether in relationship or out of relationship, that lie applies to us, man. We believe it doesn't impact anybody. This is just me in my room at night, or this is Just me pursuing isolation in a bathroom. Like, nobody's impacted. But of course, people on the other side of the screen are impacted. Our futures are being impacted, who we're becoming. Because that so matters of spending time with Jesus and becoming like him and then doing what he did. And, man, this is being deformed into the image of the world because we are becoming somebody. And we are either becoming in. More into the image of the world or more into the image of Jesus. It does matter and it does impact people. Even as a single person. I would say this even my own family, because of course, I don't have my own family. But my parents and my siblings, like, man, they get less of me because I'm pursuing isolation. I'm not pursuing intentionality or creating anything beautiful with them, even if that's just taking the time to have a phone call. They get less of me when I'm pursuing addiction. That's true.

Let's pray. That was good. Okay, so last question. And I think this is a good one, too. And I know per conversations we've had, this is why we had you on. Cause this is a great question even for you right now. If we're single, have been through recovery and desire a relationship, should we try to find someone who also is in healing or in recovery, has had some of that experience? Is that a necessity or a requirement for someone who wants to live a healthy life and marriage?

I think flat out, no. But my experience would wrestle otherwise because I so desperately want somebody who's owning their story and has unpacked their pain and knows their secrets.

Runs over the speed bump says 60 miles an hour.

I want somebody like that. But I think something I'm realizing as a single is, like, shoot, am I just looking for, like, the perfected version of me? And in some ways, potentially, and I don't know if that's what God would have. I think that's what my flesh and what I desire. And again, I'm not trying to put those desires as bad because they're not. They're good desires. But just going, God, what do you want from me? God, do I really trust you? Do I really trust that maybe her background isn't in addiction or recovery or sexuality or ministry? Like. Like, what if she was a nurse that was incredible at her job, working downtown, not aware at all of pure desire. Like, that's hard for me because I'm like, man, I want to be seen, I want to be known, and I want to be loved. And I feel like if she can't see Me or know me, then how could she ever love me? And, like, that could take time. And I think she could get there for sure. Yeah. But there's a part of me that's just like, oh, man, she better have gone through and done her own work. I think maybe also just a fear of, like, I don't want to have to, like, push her there or do that for her. So definitely, I think there's a lot of fears that can rise up in me of, like, man, I hope that she's really healthy. And I think as she's pursuing God, and I think the woman in whom I will end up pursuing and then Mary will be pursuing God. Like, I need to trust him. Like, again, like you said earlier, Nick, I'm not her healer and I'm not her savior. I want to be. I want to fix it. I want to be the hero. I want to be the knight in shining armor. As you wish. I want to be that dude, but I'm not. I'm not that guy. But he is. And so do I trust God enough? And I would say that again, Please hear me not saying I trust God, man. That is a current battle, a current wrestle of God. Make me to trust you.

Yeah, I think that's a great answer. And I just think we have to be open to both that for sure. As we lean into healing, we're kind of learning a language that we're speaking more and more often. And if someone else speaks that same language, we'll find affinity, we'll find connection. But in our world, people go to foreign countries and fall in love all the time. And sometimes it's their uniquenesses and the different backgrounds that draws them together. And so it's like, whatever God leads you into, I think we need to be open to. And if it's someone that speaks our language, lean into that. And if it's someone that's exploring this part with us because it's new to them, but we find they're interested in it, they're celebrating the progress. There can be a lot of good in that, too. So I think just being open to what God has and what. What we're leading to and not trying to control the outcome. Like, it has to be this way. God, where he's maybe saying, well, no, just come to me with open hands and trust me to fill it with the right thing.

Yeah, that's what I'm saying, man. I have tried so many times to control things, and it has left me more broken every single time. And so, truly, again, man, the cry of my heart is truly that God. My hands are open. I'm sick of trying to control this. I'm sick of trying to make things work. Like, make me to trust you and show me the joy and fulfillment you have for me right now. Don't let me live waiting. Like, let me live in the present pursuing what the purposes he's put in my life.

Well, and I think a lie so many people assume is that that's just a one time decision. It's not. It's a daily thing. Like it's the, you know, laying down it all at the feet of Jesus for sure. So look, it is, as you've heard through these FAQs, like, it is possible to be single and sexually healthy. And there is a ton of dynamic and variable that is involved in being single, wanting to get married, being unmarried. There's just a lot to this. But we hope our conversation today has just helped, maybe beef up some of your perspectives. And just know that, listen, if you want to get married, we're rooting for you. Like, marriage is great. And if God's given you the gift of singleness for the rest of your life, you are not a lesser version than anybody else who's married. You are just as valuable. So we want you to hear that. John, we appreciate you being here, the work you do, but just your transparency, like being open and letting us into your process, man. Appreciate it.

Yeah, thanks for having me.

And wherever you're at on your journey, Pure desire is here to help create a road map for your healing. If you or someone you know is impacted by sexual brokenness or betrayal trauma, go to PureDesire.org and begin the healing journey today. If this podcast is helpful on your journey, just share it with others. Just do it. Make sure to subscribe to the podcast. Drop us a review helps us find the podcast. You can tell I want you to do this. It means a lot to me. Each week we are putting out new content to help you on the road to healing and freedom. And lastly, never stop being healthy.