279 - How To Support Pure Desire Groups At Your Church

Welcome to the Pure Desire Podcast, helping you take back your life from unwanted sexual behavior and betrayal trauma. Hello. Hello. I'm your host, Trevor Windsor, and you're listening to episode 279 of the Pure Desire podcast. Here joining me as always, is my co host, Nick Stumbo.

You like that? You like that?

Oh, no.

How do you like me now?

Our producer Justin was like, the last time we recorded, you guys were yelling, stop yelling. And then you just yelled.

I apologized, Trevor, for my loud intro, but do you know what it's from?

I have no idea.

I don't know.

I don't know.

I'm sure it's a poor imitation. The intonation could have been a lot better, but that was one. Kirk D. Cousins after a football game with the Washington, formerly known as the Redskins.

Now the.

Now the Commanders. Yep, Commandeer. I forget commanders. I think the Commandeers. Buccaneers. No, we already used that one. The Commanders. Yeah, but it was after one, like one of his first big wins as a starting quarterback. And he, you know, as he was coming up through the tunnel, he's like yelling at the reporters, you like that? You like that? Because they'd all been giving him a hard time and that was kind of his. His moment in the sun. So.

Yeah, and he's a quarterback now for.

Your Minnesota Knights now. And a very well paid quarterback. And you know, in the.

Not as well performing as.

Yeah, I mean, he's definitely a well established starting quarterback. I mean, his stats and wins. He just hasn't had post season success, so people rip on him for that. But yeah, he's turned out to be a really successful quarterback. And that's kind of the tie in to today's episode.

Oh, so today we had a brand new guest. You've never met him before. Maybe you have, but if you're a listener of the show, you've never heard him before or seen him. One of our newest employees, Emmanuel Garraway, who's our church relations specialist, and he came on to really talk us through how to support Pure Desire groups running at our church.

Yeah, and that's the reality, is that when things are new to us, it can just strike us as odd or funny. And I think that's why that moment with Kirk Cousins has been memorialized or it's been remembered in all these gifs and Internet memes. And it's because it's like he was this unknown and people are like, what is he talking about? Like, he's going off, but now he's a household name. Like, and now people know him and know of him. And I think there's some similarities there. When you're starting groups that you hear about, like pure desire or how groups run or maybe something about the structure. And it's like, what, what is this? We don't feel totally comfortable or confident, but there really is a process that as we learn, as we grow and this becomes familiar, it's like, oh, that makes sense. It all fits now. And I think that's what we're talking about with Emmanuel today is just how do we make this kind of part of our leadership skill set? How do we support these groups and whether we feel personally led to be engaged with them ourselves or not, that we can still play a significant role in how groups function at our church.

Yeah. And I mean, speaking of groups, we do have a new resource out, and it's with the same name everyone knows, Betrayal and Beyond, for betrayed women to go through and get their healing from betrayal trauma. But we now have updated the content and it's new and fresh. Let's talk about that for a minute.

Yeah, we're excited to be releasing a new and updated version, you know, built on the great ideas and foundations that Diane Roberts had and her use of scripture in the healing journey and just understanding how God meets us in that place. And we grow through the betrayal and. And go beyond to what does it look like to re. Establish healthy relationships where possible or where does it. Where do we establish health on our own? Because in as we know, in some of those cases, the marriage doesn't make it or the partner is not interested working on their issues. And so just looking at a fresh new take on that that's really been informed by trauma, what does it mean that when someone discovers their husband's porn use or unwanted sexual behaviors, like it's traumatic and the brain and body do some weird things in trauma. And I think this resource really helps women in a group setting walk through healing in a really, really effective way. And we just think it's a dynamic resource for every church. And I am not overstating that when I say every church because the number of men who struggle, we know percentage wise is high. So that means the percentage of women that feel betrayed is right there with them. And we need a safe place for them to experience community, process their story, and move into the future that God has for them and hopefully for their husband in their marriage as well.

Yeah, absolutely. So if you want to check out this new resource, this updated resource, go to PureDesire.org betrayal and beyond.

All right.

A few Things. Subscribe to the podcast. Follow us on social media earedesirepdmi and this episode will be up on YouTube to search Pure Desire Ministries. All right, and with that, here's our time with Emmanuel Garraway on how to support pure desire groups at your church. Emmanuel Garraway, welcome to the Pure Desire podcast, man. Thanks for being here.

What's going on? Thank you guys for having me.

Yeah. So for those of you who are watching and listening, this is a new face, new voice we have not seen, we have not heard. Today we're gonna get to know you a little bit. You're new on staff, and today we're gonna look at what churches, pastors, leaders, what we can do to best support pure desire groups running at our church. We want to discuss ways to help these groups really run the smoothest they can and be the most effective. And as a guy who has pastoral experience and has led groups in his church, wanted to tap into that experience today. So just to start being. This your first time, can you give some background, like life, family ministry, let people know about you?

Yeah. Well, he said, my name is Emmanuel. I know my wife will be watching this and she will make sure to tell you all that I was born in Canada and don't look at the camera.

We already had someone look at the camera.

Don't do that.

Born in British Columbia, Canada.

Don't break the fourth wall. Don't do it.

Raised in Lacey Washing. Married this. Gosh. Couple weeks ago. Celebrating nine years of marriage.

Congrats.

Nice.

Yeah. And we've been through a lot of life, but we have three children, Ava, Naomi, and Trinity. So think aunt. Eight, seven and soon to be six.

Busy.

Yeah. Pray for us. We have a little boy in heaven named Emmanuel junior, but moved to the state of Oregon to pastor young adults at East Hill Church. And my first day on the job was when the whole world shut down.

Congrats.

So that's been my experience. But now we're here in the state of Oregon. We live in Sandy on the Pure Desire team, and I'm absolutely loving it.

What do you do here? Yeah.

So I'm the church relations specialist, which is a brand new position. And as I'm learning and as we're learning together, my role is primarily to connect with pastors, partner with pastors locally and centrally, globally on how can we run effective groups in the churches, what's needed, what's not needed, and ultimately just to be a resource.

That's awesome.

Yeah.

Very cool.

So for you, getting to be at East Hill Church, obviously, that's where Dr. Ted Roberts was. And knowing the senior pastors that have followed him, that's continued to be, in our opinion, a very effective healing church healing groups. And so from that experience and just other church experiences you've had, on the flip side, what would you say are things that we do or say from the front of the room, from the stage that might actually work against healing and recovery groups or make it hard for people to feel safe about going to them?

Yeah, that's a great question. And honestly, just to off the jump, it is saying words like, if you're the ones that struggle with this issue or this is your struggle, we have something for you. Kind of like, what's that one Christmas movie? The Toys Island. That one?

Oh, the. Yeah, the island of island of Mitsubishi.

But like, making it seem like it's that, like, I'm gonna shame you, even though I'm doing my part and saying this is something that we do have, but it's for those people.

Yeah.

And that's definitely one negative thing that if we're not careful, we can communicate that, like, this is an isolated issue for a certain group of people that also invites more shame. And like, you know, I'm really not sure if I wanted to open up or even say this is a struggle of mine.

Yeah, we've talked about a lot on the show that the pronouns we use are really important. Like if it's they and them, that's one thing. But if it's us and we, that's something that is much more inclusive. And I even think using, like, if you're always talking about examples with sexual brokenness or even betrayal, and you're using only one gender for each one, like, you know, so for the men out there, you know, or he's always saying he, he, he. When it comes to sexual, you know, brokenness, that can create some difficulty too in the same side on betrayal. But then sometimes you can just tell when you're listening to someone preach or you're listening to someone give examples from the stage, whether it's announcements and they use kind of a throwaway illustration just to kind of throw it in there. But they're not actually being specific about what the group is, who it's for. It's just making sure we cover it. Feel like that communicates a lot too. It's like, oh, okay, so that's not really something the church is super excited about. It's kind of a hush hush, but we have it from the front. Like, that just perpetuates that Shame and that issue, too.

Yeah. I think there are also ways that we preach and teach that can work against people feeling safe. That. And we might not immediately think of this, but we can kind of teach a message of, if you love God enough, if you're following Jesus enough, you won't make bad choices. And I wish that were true. But as far as I can tell, every Christ follower still is imperfect and makes mistakes. And there has to be room in our theology, even for sanctification, for growth, to recognize we're all in process. And if we preach like man, a man of integrity, just always says no to temptation. Like, well, I hope he does. I hope she does. But it's not always. And so if we do struggle not feeling like, just like you said that, then there's something wrong with us. And now we got to go to the group for people that can't figure out their faith versus that message of, hey, we're all trying to be more like Christ, and we're all doing it imperfectly. And so here's some of the ways our church helps us follow Christ better and making that just a normal step to take versus admitting defeat. Feeling shameful. What's wrong with me? Even by signing up for the group.

Yeah.

Yeah. And then another thing, too, is like, telling people, you need more Jesus, more Bible, more scripture. Which, yes, we need scripture, sure. But, like, there's something about being in community that brings transformation. But there's also the layer to dealing with sexual brokenness or any type of issue is going beneath the surface and getting to the root causes of what is causing these behaviors. Because if we just say more Scripture, now we're attaching performance to, okay, my recovery is attached to what I can do. If I can love Jesus more, if I can remember the whole book of Galatians and Revelation, and the first one, I'm okay with.

Revelation's tough. You throw Ezekiel in there.

If I can remember more scripture, then I'm. I've made it. I'm healthy, which isn't the case.

Yeah. I think another thing, too, is just like, we've talked about this a ton on the show, but if you talk about, go to the back and sign up or pull out your phone, scan this QR code, it's like, come on. If you're looking at launching a ministry or launching groups in this area, the best way to eliminate the high number of people who need this and they're not gonna show up and you're gonna have very small groups is to make the signup process not confidential. To make it something that's just gonna cause crisis right there and then in your service. It's not helpful.

Yeah, great question.

Okay, so on the flip side, and again, I'm curious, too, with the recent experience you had at East Hill, because you had Jason and then you had Keith. Now who's there, the lead guy. What are things we can do and say in our church that help those healing and recovery groups? What have you seen and experienced?

Yeah, one thing that if any of you guys know Keith or pk, he's.

Been on the show.

Yeah.

Yep.

Spiritual father. And he always, like, he shares his story, like, from the pulpit.

Yeah.

And I think that's one of the biggest ways of including and inviting people in and even, like, diminishing or minimizing. I won't say minimizing, but easing the shame factor is like, hey, this is something that I've journeyed through, and I've experienced healing and restoration through what God does, through Pure Desire. And so from the. From the pulpit or from announcements is regularly keeping at the front, as you would say, tithes and offerings. Right. Like talking about sexual integrity as a part of discipleship.

Yeah.

And sharing your story is definitely one thing that I. That Keith and all the other pastors, Jason, Ted, founder of Pure Desire, have done is sharing their story, which invites other people to explore, get connected. And it's like, wow. My stories essentially, like something I felt unredeemable. Setting people free through the. Through Jesus.

Yeah, it's cool.

Yeah. It's so powerful when we share stories. And I think if a pastor or leader feels like, well, that's not my story, what do I do? I mean, there are so many other ways that you can champion people's stories, lives being changed. Because I think people may have a natural fear of, well, boy, if. If I join this group, will others in the church or the church staff look down on me? Will they think less of me in my faith? And if a pastor or leader can bring someone else on staff and say, hey, we want you to hear from Joe. Because Joe's been through a group experience, and his life's been changed. Joe, tell us a little bit about it. And it's evident that the church really supports Joe and his family and that Joe is still being given leadership opportunities that just in a maybe kind of subconscious way communicates to everyone else, like, oh, I can take this step and still be part of the church. Church. It's not like I get relegated to something quiet or, you know, because it's one thing if the pastor Shares it, and then everybody's like, yeah, but you're the pastor. Like, what about me? So if you can bring others up and share their story as they're ready, that can make a huge difference as well.

Another thing, too, and I think this is maybe something we could do a better job at in churches. And sometimes we just say, hey, we have sexual integrity groups or betrayal groups. You know, join if you're interested. And that for a lot of people who have tried breaking free or tried finding healing from those things before, that's just like, well, been there, done that. This isn't different or unique. So maybe explaining a little bit more, like, explaining, like, if you've experienced sexual betrayal because you're married to someone who has unwanted sexual behavior or sexual brokenness, this is something where you get to come into this group, you get around other people who have the same experience you do, and you get to unpack how this is impacting your life now. Make sense of your story, understand how trauma impacts you, and then work toward restoring that relationship and healing and getting safety. And so if you were able to do that and use some really intentional language, that paints a picture for, like, oh, I want safety. I want healing. I want belonging. So I think if we can do a better job of unpacking it. Yeah, that could be helpful too.

Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely.

We've also seen how helpful it is when you encourage people to do it for someone else, because it's harder to admit that I have the need. But it's like, hey, if you're a parent of a kid, you need to understand what's happening in our world and what happens to their brain. And then, you know, husbands and wives can look at each other like, oh, we should go to that, because we're parents, and they don't have to admit anything about their own story. So if you can invite people like, hey, let's be a part of helping others, that can often get the door open. So we were talking about this a little bit, Emmanuel, but is it essential that a pastor be leading these groups? Do they have to be actively involved in the ministry? Or what does that look like for pastors and leaders that probably already feel super busy and, like, there's a lot on their plate?

Yeah. I don't say, you don't have to. And I'm not gonna say. But I will say at the same time, I encourage you to go through it too, because it's something about, like, leading first and getting an understanding of, like, okay, I want this for my church, but I don't even know what this is. So being able to go through it and just to say, like, hey, like, I've experienced God here, and you can, like, clearly testify of what happens when you go through any type of group in pure desire. And so leading first gives you more. A more credibility. And two gives, like, a clear, definitive statement to say, hey, this works like this. I believe in this. My stamp of approval is on this. And it bridges the gap from, say, someone who's experienced healing, freedom, restoration. It gives them the support. It's like, oh, my pastor's got my back.

Yeah.

Like, he's championing me. Like, I know this works because my pastor believes in this and he believes in me.

Yeah. And so twofold and with the pastors, you know, and this is an encouragement we've made in some other episodes too. You don't have to be in the groups in your church if you're gonna do that. It could be an online group, it could be a group at another church, whatever it may be. But definitely, you know, stepping into that, being informed is super helpful. Super helpful. But I think too, just understanding that your support goes a really, really long way. And so even though you might not be leading the groups or overseeing the groups, depending on your staff size, just knowing that you have their back and you're open to more conversations, to learning more, to having meetings with these group leaders, to finding better ways to communicate them, invite people into it, I think goes a long way. And that's really. That's what we want. Because, you know, if you look at Ephesians 4, the idea of equipping the saints for the work of ministry, that's part of your job as a pastor. That is. I mean, in my opinion, that is the number one job as a pastor or leader in a church. And this is a way that you can do that by giving them that encouragement and that open line of communication so you don't have to be in, but you can be for those ministries.

And one of the beautiful things about Pure Desire and me being a part of the group's team is like, the conversations I'm having with pastors. As soon as I say, like, hey, we have a team to support you, they're like, oh, I don't have to launch another ministry.

Yeah, for sure.

Wow. Like, we have Ashley and Rich and all the other groups team, like, here for training, like the group leadership training, sexual integrity, one on one. Like, all of its stuff is packaged in position to where you don't even have to reinvent the wheel. Like, hey, we got your support, we got regular meetings, trainings for your leaders. Like, we're here. This, you're not alone in this. And they're like, oh, wow, like, how do I sign up for the church membership?

Yeah.

And so that part is really awesome. Just to see pastors go, I'm not alone.

Yeah, you're not alone. We're here to help. I think there's a reality too, in a lot of churches, and whether this is right or wrong, that could be the topic of another podcast. But in a lot of churches, unless people hear it from up front and sometimes unless they hear it from the pastor, until then, it doesn't really matter. It's not really a big deal in the church. And I think we get that that's true. Because when something does matter to the church, it's like every service, all the people on stage are talking about, hey, don't forget, coming up, this new discipline discipleship thing, or this new class or this new opportunity. And everyone goes, oh, this really matters. And if the only time we hear about like sexual integrity type things or pure desire groups is kind of these hush tones or really small little blurbs in the bottom of the bulletin that says something. And so as a pastor leader, you don't have to be leading the groups themselves, but I think it really matters that you feel comfortable enough with what's happening that you can champion it, that you can talk with support about. Man, I believe these are life changing. And I'm so supportive that our church has these and that will just open doors for other people. And so I'd say if you're not there, you know, my other suggestion would be to talk to other pastors that have these groups in their churches. And we'd be glad to provide some phone numbers and contacts, say, hey, talk to some leaders. We'll even find some in your denomination that are doing this and ask what impact it's having on their people, on their culture. Because I think I know for me, until I heard it from another pastor, I had a hard time really seeing how could it work in my church, right? So it's one thing if a church member is like, oh, we need these groups, we should do it. And I remember a couple of times with ministries I didn't really know about, I would go talk to a pastor friend and say, hey, have you ever worked with so and so? Have you ever done this ministry? And if they said, oh yeah, we loved it, it was so good for us. Well, man, all of a sudden I'm thinking about it like, oh, maybe we should do that. And if that's where you're at as a leader, I think that's great. We trust peers for recommendations. So talk to another pastor. And like I said, if you need a phone number, we'll connect you with some that you could talk to and just say, what impact did this have at your church?

Yeah, I'm envisioning the guy on stage who's announcing and we have a potluck next week, and then we have sexual integrity next weekend. Okay. And then back to the sermon.

Let's all really fast voice at the end of radio commercials when they have to share the legal stuff, like small.

Print, the fine print stuff. Absolutely.

That's what we do with the integrity.

Oh, my gosh. Another thing I would say on that too, you know, if you look at the statistics, it's between one and two times every month that people on average go to church. And so, you know, you may say it from this stage on one weekend, but you might be missing three quarters of the people who are normally there.

Yeah.

Like at any given Sunday. And so I think that we need to make sure that we're doing that in a consistent basis, that it's like, okay, week one and week three, we're going to say something, and then next month it's week two and week four. We're trying to make sure we're catching people. Because if it is that important from the front, you have to consider not everyone's there.

Yeah, I know. As a pastor, if it mattered to us, we said it three weeks in a row.

Yeah.

Because we're like, that will catch at least a majority of our people three weeks in a row. Yep.

Yep. That's good.

It's a lot to ask for. So think about what would it take to get you to that point.

Absolutely. Okay, so press into this a little bit from a pastor, church leader perspective. What does healthy oversight of these groups look like? So what are we encouraging pastors and leaders to do when trying to help these groups going?

Yeah, well, definitely having a plan, number one, like not only with launching the group, but when you're gonna end. What's next? Yeah, like having that on the front end is, I would say, essential and crucial because the last thing you want to do is take people on, on a journey and say, okay, what's what now?

Yeah.

And so being able to have a game plan, a pathway is huge. Also making sure that people are equipped, like, again, not to plug it, but like the group leadership training, like making sure leaders understand what they're walking into what the commitment is, what it entails, like what it means to be healthy, to lead a group. Having healthy boundaries, all of those things are crucial within doing all of that, because you want to set people up for success, not only the leader, but those that you're leading. And so just being able to be clear, setting people up, giving them a clear direction and pathway, I would say is very, very important.

Yeah, yeah. I was just thinking of the metaphor as you were talking about having a plan that sometimes we're like a mountain guide that leads people to the top of the mountain. And it's, man, the view is amazing and isn't this great? And then the group looks at you like, okay, how do we get down? And if you're the guide and you're like, I don't know, I just got you up here, good luck. It's like a long ways down. And it's scary to kind of know, well, here's some next steps. Here's some ways you can use this in incorporating in another group, or we can help you lead or start another one. I'm just. There are a lot of different plans, and that's part of what Emmanuel does. And our groups team like, hey, we'll help you think through it. You don't have to come up with the plan. But I think having a plan is crucial. A couple other things I think about in terms of overseeing these groups. It some ways sounds trite, but it's so true. Like, be praying for these leaders. This is a tough kind of front edge, pushing back the darkness kind of ministry. And so really letting those leaders know, like, hey, we're praying for you, or when our staff meets, we pray for you. Whether that's once a month or once a week, you know, whatever your rhythm is just really covering those leaders in prayer. And then I think it means the world if you're checking in. It doesn't have to be the lead pastor, but I think someone on staff that just once a month calls up and says, hey, how's your group going? Anything you need? How can I support you? Because this is also a ministry that, I mean, let's face it, at most churches, if there's a couple of groups running at a time, that's great. But that means there's only a couple leaders that feel like, man, I'm carrying this burden for this group and to just communicate to them, hey, I know you're doing something that's maybe not as widespread in our church, but I got your back, I'm here for you. Just reminds them they're not alone. And I think that's a huge role that we can play as leaders.

Yeah, I think a couple other just maybe smaller things is like thinking through the budget and giving some resources to this could be helpful. I even think how cool it is if a leader gets a call from a pastor and is like, hey, I want you to take your group out to coffee this week and here's a coffee card or, hey, I got you some pizza. Maybe you feed this, you know, you feed your group. And I'm not saying, you know, if your church is running 50 groups, like, that's going to be tough, but you probably got a big budget if you.

Got 50 groups going.

Right, Right.

It's not the worst. The worst use. But I think that sort of thing may be small but can really communicate, I have your back. I'm for you. I see the work that you're doing and this is important ministry, you know. And two, I think something as simple as, like, you can use this room at our church. Like, it's okay if you use the facilities. Absolutely. Like, I think some churches might be afraid of confidentiality or some other issues that might come up. But just saying, like, hey, when do you want to run your groups? Okay, great. Tuesday nights at 7, we have this room open. Why don't you guys take this room this week or, you know, for the next few months? And I think just things like that, small things, thinking through the needs that a group might have and even understanding how emotionally weighty these can be, thinking, how can I serve these people? And it's interesting too, because just as I'm talking about that, we think about that as pastors and leaders all the time. Like, I know this family's hurting. What are some ways we can use some of the funds that we have just to be a blessing to them and think through that way too, with your group leaders could go a long way.

For sure.

Yeah.

So when we're in church leadership, you know, we want the ministries that we run to be successful. And maybe we don't use the word success. Maybe we think effective or fruitful.

Yeah.

Life giving. So how do we measure in that sense if these kind of sexual integrity and recovery groups are working, working if they're being effective and if, if we feel like they're not, what steps can we take to help maybe move the groups towards greater effectiveness?

Yeah, great question. A couple things I would say. One, continued progress, like somebody completes or goes through sexual integrity 1, 101. And if, like, you're a Young adult shout out to young adults out there.

Hey, hey.

Going into, like, a living free or seven pillars, like, continuing the journey is definitely a way to measure, like, effectiveness or fruitfulness. But another thing, and this is, like, more so, I guess you could say, on the pastoral end is seeing, like, other leaders being raised up, like, wanting to measure, like, okay, is this actually working? And the whole discipleship or multiplication is like, I see other leaders being raised up, encouraging and leading other groups and that are encouraging others to then be leaders, who are encouraging others to be leaders. So being able to see that, like, at our church, like, there's several people, like, Dave Marlowe is attached to several people. Like, one of my young adults, Noah Guyer. I love you, man.

Yeah.

But, like, just seeing that, spending time with each other.

Yeah.

And then he's like, you know what? You're ready to lead. Like, you got this. Like, I believe in you. Like, that's. That's always huge. Especially as a pastor, we're able to delegate the words we like to use, like, delegate responsibility and champion. Empower people.

Yeah.

I think that's definitely one way to see. And then in other ways, just seeing families healthy.

Totally.

Like, yep. You see and hear stories of couples like, oh, man, we want a date this week. Like, date nights on the calendar every week.

Yeah.

Or my kids are like, they love me, and we're spending more time with each other. We're going on vacations. Like, just being able to see families healthy is definitely another way.

You're talking about fruit is what you're talking about. And I think of people who. I'm thinking of someone specifically in this context who's getting healing from sexual brokenness. Their shame is starting to go down. They're starting to feel better about themselves. They may start stepping up and serving. They may be raising their hands during worship. They may be more engaged on a spiritual level, on a relational level, community level. And I think that that's the kind of stuff we should pay attention to, because that's real transformation. It's not just someone that's getting better with a bad behavior. It's someone who's growing as a person and an individual holistically. And so it's not just like, are you treating your wife good? It's like, are you showing up to church a little bit earlier than maybe you used to? Maybe you're serving coffee instead of just taking it. You know, things like that, I think, can add measurables to this journey.

Yeah.

Yeah. I think we're really looking for life transformation. Are There changed lives. And even if there's a few, that. That matters. I. I know sometimes as churches, we can be guilty of just measuring things by numbers and how big is it and how many people went. And maybe you get a lot of people to go. But on the other hand, if you're working to start this, if you're working to shift the culture of your church and making it safe to deal with our broken sexuality and find help in that area, you may only have a few people initially. One or two groups is common to start with. And yet if you see boy in those one or two groups, we had these five men walk through and four out of five got to the end of the group and were doing awesome, really went to the next level in their faith and started plugging. I mean, that's huge. If it's developed for men or conversely for women who are really freed up, healthier and able to serve God, then you say, man, this is effective. I think one of the things on the flip side, then I would look at if groups aren't effective is if you're routinely seeing groups start and don't finish, groups get going, but most of the people drop out, then you're probably encountering some issues of either poor leadership or inconsistent leadership that you want to address. And sometimes you might have to go to the people who stopped coming to group, maybe not to the leader, because it could be that the leader has a blind spot, that they're maybe shaming people and don't realize it, or they're dominating all the time and no one gets to talk. And so I think you do want to watch for that. If you're in pastoral oversight, if groups just are always fizzling out, go to some of the people like, hey, I'm curious. Tell me a bit about your group experience. And could you be honest and just tell me why didn't you keep going? And if you learn some things, you might actually find, oh, it's not that the material wasn't good. It's that the way we structured the group, or maybe something about the style of the leadership wasn't creating the kind of environment. Because that is what we have seen is when groups are led well and there's that environment of grace and there's consistency in the group structure, people thrive. People that are looking for healing find it, and the groups thrive. And so if. If you just feel like, man, our groups are not thriving, there's probably something going on and we'd love, as a team, our groups team would love to help. Like, let's open up the hood on the car and find out what's going on in the engine. Because if we can get the engine running, it's going to produce life change.

Absolutely, absolutely.

So what resources. And we've talked about some already, but just again, what resources do we offer that help pastors and church leaders create and really sustain for the long term? Healthy recovery and support groups.

Yeah. One of them that I've been bringing up a lot in conversation is our church membership. Like, especially for those that have other people that they've identified or come to them. Like, I'm really passionate about. Like, you got three people already saying, like, I believe in this. Like, you already have four slots taken.

Yeah.

For $49 a month.

Yeah.

That you would have access to the group leader training that would get them trained up. Like, it's amazing content, too. Like, you're learning how to launch effective groups, what it means to set, like, create a culture of grace. Like, being able to go through that before launching groups is essential. And then sexual integrity 101. Like, I. I like to use that as, like, let's bring awareness. Let's. Let's begin the conversation.

Yeah.

Especially for a pastor who may be new to pure desire and what we do and all the resources that we have. That's one way to say, like, oh, wow, like, dang, 7%. Like, I want. I want to increase. I want to be a part of changing the number.

Yeah.

Like, I want to see God move in this area. So, like, it creates more curiosity and it's an invitation. And then also, like, you got the podcast. Like, just being able to hear this all the time. Like, I, like when I found I get to work with you guys that I listen, like, oh, my gosh, like, these guys are so cool.

I know him.

I know him. We have ample resources available to say, hey, I'm curious, how do I help my church grow and heal in this area, many pathways begin.

Well, and I'll say it this way, Emmanuel, you are a resource. And Rich Moore is a resource. And Ashley Jamison and Kelly Johnson and Sarah, like our groups team. That's why you're here. And I know so for any pastor or church leader or even just a lay volunteer who's like, maybe you listen to the podcast because you're the only one at your church and you feel like your staff has kind of said, yeah, if you could bring us some ideas, maybe we'll start it. Reach out to Emmanuel and just say, what could we do? Explain where you're at. Let us be Part of that journey. Because that's why we bring on quality guys like Emmanuel, so that we can be your advocates, we can be your guide and coach, and we can't do the work for you. It's your church. It's your context. We want to empower and equip you, but we have people that. That's their job. So I know he wouldn't say it because he's a humble dude, but Emmanuel's a resource. And if you're listening, going, man, what could we do? I know he would love nothing more than to spend a half an hour or an hour on the phone just talking about your situation, what you're facing, and then strategizing, what could your next steps be? Cause that's why he's here. So utilize him.

Yeah, like, know that you have not just myself, but a whole team of people here at Pure Desire. Like, we believe in you. You're called. God has got you man or woman in your church, in your context, leading a flock of people. And you have people that believe in you and are here to support you. And I'm one of them. So, like, please reach out, like, send me an email. Love to have a zoom conversation. Or if you're local, I love coffee.

Hey, another thing, too, just to plug the membership again, is that, you know, a couple of those additional benefits is that you do get a discount on the resources. And so that's nice when you're trying to create, sustain a ministry. Then also you get access to free trainings with the group's team. So it's not just, hey, can I get on a manual schedule? Or, hey, can I meet with Rich or Ashley? It's actually, like, you get invited to these trainings where there's Q and A where they talk through. Yeah. Every month. So you're getting a lot of exposure to the group leader. The group leaders that we have here on staff and that are willing to just pour in. So it's not just something like, okay, that sounds great, but I'll just try to get on their calendar three months from now. It's like, no, no, no. You get pretty instant access in a lot of ways.

Yeah, they're amazing.

I would just chime in and say, if you're a leader or pastor that's listening to this particular episode because someone in your church begged, they said, would you please listen to this?

Buy that person coffee first?

Realize that there's something that's happened in their life that has made them passionate enough to recommend this to you and then hear from us. Like, we're here to help, that it isn't a heavy burden on your shoulders. And I know when I was a pastor, when someone came to me with, we need to start this group. We need to start this ministry. We need to have our whole church read this book. We need to have everybody watch this movie. Whatever it was, if it was somebody else telling me what we needed to do, I just, as a pastor, would feel like, you know, I've got 14 other things that I already feel like we need to do. I'll add this to the list. And if you're feeling that way, just know we're here for you so that you don't have to do the heavy lifting. If we can help you answer a few of your questions, and I. I get that up front, you may have some concerns. You may be like, who is this group? Can we trust them? What are they going to try to do to my church? Like, yeah, honestly, we're not trying to do anything to your church other than help you help your people find healing.

Yeah.

We don't want to change you or your denomination or your beliefs.

Like, that's good.

We just want people to find healing, and we can do the heavy lifting in terms of the resourcing, the training, the support. So just keep that in mind, that if you were directed to this podcast, it's because someone cared, and we care about you and want to help take that next step in the process.

Yeah.

Yes. All right. So on that note, Emmanuel, what does your role at Pure Desire do to help people who are in that place that we've just described? It's a pastor, a church leader, a staff member who's like, okay, what do we need to do? How can you help them take steps towards running effective groups?

Yeah, absolutely. So kind of back to what I. I said briefly. Like, my role is to partner with you, like, as a pastor, as a leader in your church. Like, my role is to support and partner with you, like, kind of pastor, pastor kind of role. So if you have, like, any questions or unsure of, like, either a. I'm whole new. I'm new to Pure Desire. I'm curious about getting groups, like, let's have the conversation. So then I can connect you with Rich and Ashley, since they're the ones that are, like, they got. They're ready, locked and loaded to train up leaders and to launch groups with you. But also, too, to know, like, I see you and I understand, like, I was a young adult's pastor. I understand the pressure that comes with overseeing multiple ministries and oh, by the way, like, hey, we'd like to launch a group. And then having to do that too, and just understanding, like, I know what it feels like.

Totally.

And then having in the back of your mind, oh, I got my quarterly budget due. So, like, I understand the pressure that comes with all the different things that you. That you're navigating and just know that you have a peer that is there with you to support you along the journey, and then you have a continued supporter. Like, if you have any questions or like, hey, I'm. I'm seeing some groups having some challenges, or I'm not sure how we can do things better, or I like to see more groups come, like, can you help me? Like, you. You have me and you have the groups team ready and available to. To support you along. Along the way.

Yeah. I feel like that's something that, like, you can't overvalue, is someone who's been in the shoes that you're in and can offer some expertise in a specific area that, I mean, let's be honest, not a lot of pastors have experience or education. You know, like, seminaries aren't teaching sexual discipleship and how to do that in the church. And so that's what I love. And you're a cool dude, man. Like, you get to, you know, just hang out and chat and be friends, but then also just, like, know that you're working toward bettering your church and your community. Absolutely.

You know, and I would. I would add, too, I think a value of reaching out to Emmanuel and our team is we get that we're not the only ministry in this area, and it'd be unrealistic for us to think that we can be all things to all people. I mean, even though, you know, I believe we could help anyone and we could help any church, I just get that in your context, there may be resources or groups that are a better fit. And as we hear about your context, we can help navigate, like, hey, here's a group we'd recommend, or here's a ministry. Here's an approach. Because if Pure Desire is not the right fit for you, we would rather see you do something than doing nothing. And we can, because we're a part of this industry. If you're listening to this podcast, you might feel like, well, I haven't heard of anybody that does this, and Pure Desire is the first one. Well, the truth is, there's dozens of others, fortunately. I mean, unfortunately, it's only dozens, not hundreds. But we know a lot of them. We know the people, we know the strategies, we know the theologies. And if we're not the right fit, we'll help you find the one that is, because we're just passionate about changing the number that Emmanuel said earlier that most churches don't have any plan. And if we can help you get a plan, even if it's not pd, we're here for it. And so we won't know that until we get to know you. So call Emanuel and reach out and say, hey, here's where we're a good fit, and hopefully we are. But if we're not, you know, we'll. We'll find. We'll find you the right group, that is.

Yeah, yeah. And we'll put Emanuel's contact information, email, phone number, the whole thing in the show notes.

Absolutely.

Emmanuel, we're excited that you're on the team.

Welcome.

We're so pumped to have you. And then, man, you did it. First episode in the book.

Yeah.

Thanks, guys for having me.

Yeah.

Hopefully I can come back again. Yeah.

I mean, we'll listen to it and then get back down.

Just kidding. Absolutely. That was a very, very thorough evaluation process. Process. Yeah, that's right.

That's right. Okay. So wherever you're at on your journey, Pure Desire is here to help create a roadmap for your healing. If you or someone you know is impacted by sexual brokenness or betrayal trauma, go to PureDesire.org and begin the healing journey today. If this podcast is helpful on your journey, please share it with others. Make sure to subscribe. Drop us a review. It helps others find the show. Each week, we're putting out new content to help you on the road to healing and freedom. And lastly, never stop being healthy.

Sam.