280 - Stories Of Healing: Nate & Maggie Blaylock

Welcome to the Pure Desire podcast, helping you take back your life from unwanted sexual behavior and betrayal trauma. What is up, listener? I am your host, Trevor Windsor, and you're listening to episode 280 of the Pure Desire podcast. Here joining me as always, is my co host, Nick Stumbo.

I'm your huckleberry.

Oh, my gosh. Yes. Honestly, I can say this with 150% confidence. That is my favorite intro you've had.

Wow.

And honestly, I don't even wanna tell the listeners. I wanna know who the real people are out there who know what that quote is. And I want you to email podcasturedesire. I'm just kidding. You can tell us.

How am I gonna talk about it more if you don't say where it's from? I can change up my intro.

So Val Kilmer's best role of his entire career. Doc Holliday in the movie Tombstone.

Yeah, I think the moment when he does the gunslinging with his teacup.

Oh, my gosh. It's a shot glass, basically. Oh, gosh. Just so many. I like, I like. It's just his line of like, I'm sorry, Johnny, I forgot you with Theo. You may go now. Like, that's just. He such a great movie. I need to watch that movie again.

Yeah, it's been a while.

It has been.

It may say something that you think his best role, he basically plays a drunk the whole movie. And that's your favorite role? Hey, I don't know. I mean, he's really good at it.

I feel like if you can play a good drunk, that means something, right? Like, I don't know. Anyways, let's not unpack that too much.

Not the point.

Today we had another stories of Healing episode and we had a really cool couple from South Dakota, Nate and Maggie Blaylock, to really come on and just share a really, really cool story and how God is continuing to use them from their healing.

Yeah. And for those who are podcast fans and have listened to a number of these stories of healing, I think what you pick up on is how there's some common qualities or threads in every story, but always uniqueness and how God unpacked it in that couple's life. And I just. I felt that way again. It's like, man, there's. There's some real consistency that when you surrender to the process, when you let go of control, when you just let God take you through this journey, there are things that happen that we consistently see. And I. I take that as encouragement. Like, there's. There's something here that works in a way that God uses our stories. And you're going to hear that today. And you know, the connection to the intro, I was thinking it's other than our co worker, John Beguman, the first people we've had on the podcast from South Dakota. So I was trying to think of a South Dakota connection, and one of my connections to South Dakota is visiting as a kid the Mount Rushmore area, which is actually on the other side of the state from where Nate and Maggie are at, but over by Mount Rushmore is also Deadwood, South Dakota, where there actually were, like, actual shootouts. And there's an old saloon there where Wild Bill Hickok was shot in a poke game and killed. So I know that has nothing to do with Doc Holliday and Tomb Tombstone, but it's as close as I could get to, like, the Wild west and it's in South Dakota. So a little bit of a stretch for the connection today, but that's my South Dakota connection.

And honestly, if anything you hear from this intro is go watch Tombstone if you haven't Kurt Russell, Sam Elliott, or.

Visit Deadwood and Mount Rushmore because it's a fun family.

Okay, there you go. All right, before we get to.

And you could go to Wall Drug, like I talked about.

Sexual integrity 101. All right, good to know. Lots of connections today. Before we get into the episode, we want to let people know that we're starting to have this conversation a little early this year, but really just want to make people aware about Giving Tuesday. And Giving Tuesday is really, it's a national day where people give specifically to things they believe in, helping other people and really paying their healing. Or in our case, that's what it is, paying their healing forward. But we have an opportunity that's a pretty cool one this year for Giving Tuesday. Why don't we talk to the people about it?

Yeah, well, and I love the way that I think thematically, Giving Tuesday is meant to be connected to Thanksgiving the Thursday before. And this idea that when we're celebrating gratitude and all the things that God has done in our life, many of us can look around and realize I'm in a very stable country financially. My personal, you know, level of wealth, I might not think of myself as rich, but compared to so much in the world, God has blessed a lot of us. And I think on Giving Tuesday is a way that we can just celebrate that and give towards something special that's out of our ordinary. Maybe tithes to our local church, which we Always encourage that first. But this year for Giving Tuesday, we're highlighting our counseling scholarship, which really does help for couples or individuals, make the counseling process a little more affordable. Because at Pure Desire, our typical pathway is a one year plan. And so it's not just we'll come a few times and we'll try to help you out. It's a very coordinated 12 month approach approach to healing, which means a couple is really making a significant investment in their healing. And for some families, quite frankly, it's beyond their means. But the counseling scholarship is a way that people can consider what maybe otherwise they couldn't. Well, where does that scholarship comes from? Where does it come from people like you and me that have it on our heart to say, I want to pay forward my healing and what God has done in my story, I want to make sure it happens in someone else's story too. And it's a great connection to the story today because as you'll hear from the Blalocks, the counseling journey, not necessarily with pure desire for them, but that was a huge part of their story and it is for a lot of people. And so when we are a part of this Giving Tuesday, we're just opening that door of access to other people to have a similar journey.

Yeah. So if you want to pay your healing forward, go to PureDesire.org give and give with us for Giving Tuesday. All right, subscribe to the podcast if you haven't. We're on all the major platforms. Write us a review. It helps other people find the show. You can also follow us on social mediauredesirepdmi and this full episode will be up on YouTube. Just search Pure Desire Ministries. And with that, here is Nate and Maggie Blaylock's story of healing. Nate and Maggie, welcome to the Pure Desire podcast. I know that you guys are listeners and have partaken with Pure Desire resources, but it's cool to have you on the show for the first time. Thanks for being here.

Thanks for having us. We are really, really grateful and excited to be here.

Yeah, we're pumped.

That's awesome. Okay, so we're excited to have you on to share your story of healing and listeners. You guys know, these are stories that are real people who have been through the process of recovery and healing and are really just sharing their story in the hopes that really you'd understand that there are people out there who are struggling as well, who've been through this process as well and who are living in healing. And this is our first introduction. It sounds like we've been to an event that you guys were at, but really this is our first time getting to meet you guys and getting to hear your story. So we're excited. But as we get going, will you just describe family of origin? What was that like? Well, actually, even before that, why don't we back up, introduce yourselves. How long you've been married? What's your family situation look like? What do you guys do right now?

I'm Maggie.

I'm Nate.

And we have been married for. I'll test you.

Oh, wow.

Hot seat. 17.

17 years. Yep, 17 years. And we have three kids. We have a 12 year old, a 10 year old and a six year old.

Yeah.

And we reside in Sioux Falls, South Dakota.

Great state of South Dakota.

That's right.

Go Jackrabbits.

Go Jackrabbits. That's right. Well done.

So educated, Nick. Well done.

I'm very up on my, you know, North Dakota State. South Dakota State rivalry.

Yeah. Which you know. Cause our mutual friend who works here, John Beguman, is a South Dakota guy. So.

Yeah.

Okay, let's not spend too much time on South Dakota. I'm sure our listeners are just riveted by. Let's just go into some of the backstory. So what was family of origin? Like, what kind of culture did you guys both grow up in with how sex and sexuality was addressed? What was that like for both of you?

Yeah, so I was, I grew up as a pastor's kid. My dad was a pastor at a Southern Baptist church growing up. So I had two loving parents who cared for me really well. At the same time, there just wasn't a lot of space to talk about hard things. And certainly sex and sexuality and porn. And struggling with any of those things was just not on the table. It's not what we did at home. It's not what we talked about in church. I can remember vaguely going through some books and maybe having some one off conversations. But largely I just grew up around a culture of really always trying to have it all together and feeling like because no one was talking about the hard things. You look to the left and to the right and you're like, well, I guess I must be the only one struggling. One of our favorite Christian pastors named Ted Cunningham talks about sex and describes it as like, sex is dirty, nasty and ugly, so save it for the one you love. And like, that's kind of the message that I got about in sex. And we joke about that, but it's kind of like this taboo. It's bad. So don't do it. So just because of all those reasons, I wasn't prepared really well for how to struggle.

Yeah, I grew up about as opposite of that as could be. I grew up here in the Midwest in South Dakota, in a pretty stereotypical Catholic home. It wasn't until I went to college to play golf, where I found myself in the Southern Baptist world and met Nate. And so our stories were, like, completely different. And it was in college when I really realized that I was missing, like, I had knowledge of God, but I was missing the relational aspect of a deep personal relationship. My parents were awesome. They always came to everything. They were super supportive. But the Midwest is like a work hard and be quiet about your emotions kind of feel. And so I certainly had that in my life. We didn't really as well have much space to talk deep emotions, but we were hard workers. Man, that's cool.

Now I know who to text, by the way, for swing tips with my golf game. That's good to know.

Maggie's gonna help out.

Great connection.

I get beat by my wife at golf, which has been humbling, for sure. Yeah.

Well, it's really interesting that you guys came from very different backgrounds in terms of some of the faith structure, but had very similar experiences when it came to discussing sexuality and some of those deeper things. And so moving forward in your story, you guys get married, and where in your story together did sexual brokenness come up? Where did this kind of break into becoming part of a conversation that Nate and Maggie had to have together?

Yeah, I mean, I remember conversations about it throughout dating. I mean, we dated all four years of college, and Nate would, like, share with me every once in a while that he was trying accountability and he was working to avoid the use of pornography. So I would get, like, little snippets in dating.

Super vague, super high level conversation.

Yeah. And I think that was the advice you were given at the time, too, by the people in our church that were mentoring you through that. They obviously just didn't know what they didn't know and were doing the best that they could. But you were told to let me know a little bit, but by the most part, I couldn't handle it and to keep it from me. When we were engaged and close to being married, I had found inappropriate content on his computer, but he was able to explain to me that it surely was a roommate's and not his. And so I believed that. Right. And then the first year that we were married, I'd found it on our computer when we lived alone now, and there was no way to explain. Explain that to anybody else. And so that was the first time that we dabbled in the. The, like, what do we do? How do we handle this? And we actually did get a counselor, but our counselor was not a certified sexual addictions therapist. And so we just kind of talked about it. We did talk therapy. And I felt better getting my feelings off my chest. And I really felt conflicted because I felt like I couldn't tell our Christian friends who would judge him. And then I really felt like if I told my friends back home who weren't believers, they would minimize it and make it, like, no big deal. Everybody does this. And so we really honestly just felt, like, stuck with no place to go, and our therapist just wasn't able to give us the help that we needed.

And I think in hindsight, because I was able to get part of the way there during that process, that was not helpful for me at all. Right. What I likely learned through that, looking back, is why I definitely can't let it all out. Right. And so that was kind of a catalyst for me, unfortunately, for just going further underground, you know, and to take a step back to kind of step forward. I mean, certain from the time I was 13 on, I remember having a struggle to some degree with porn since I was first exposed to it. And I think it was this weird combination of feeling like it wasn't that big of a deal and it was normal, but also paired with knowing that it was absolutely wrong and wanting to change it and wanting to not do it, yet finding myself going back to those. Those negative coping mechanisms, and that played out for a really long time. And I think when we first. When it first came up, I learned, unfortunately, just to hide it more, and it would stop for a period of time, and then it didn't. And, you know, for me, that area of my life in marriage continued to grow. And I think kind of a turning point for me in a really negative way, around 2009, you know, my dad passed away. And looking back, I was certainly hurting after that. And my coping mechanism of choice, you know, to. To feel some relief was porn and other unwanted sexual behavior. And so that really progressed during that time. And for me, eventually, porn wasn't enough, and I began to look for pleasures wherever I could get them and wherever I could find them. That included going outside the marriage, that. Including acting out a number of ways that Maggie had no idea about. And in 2012, we had a knock on our door, and somebody had some information for Maggie that began and really started the process of completely unraveling kind of this secret part of me.

Wow.

And I couldn't hide from it anymore. Although I tried for a period of time, I couldn't run from it anymore. And I remember that night saying, if, if I really tell you everything, you're going to leave. There's just too much there. And thankfully we had a pastor that came along and supported us and came over and was able very quickly to get us in touch with the CSAT at the time. And that really began process.

Not all pastors know how to do. Like, they don't. That's big time.

We were so grateful and so thankful for that. And that started the process for us of really looking at it and what are we up against? Yeah.

I think, like, it's like when we really knew was when life became. It, like blew up so much that we just knew that we could not deal with this on our own anymore because it was such a mess.

Yeah. So, I mean, and I think we want you to both answer this, because I think there are some ways that we try to find healing and also try to find sobriety that don't work. It's not just those who struggle. What was that like for you guys? What are, you know, in my mind, this visual of, like, there's a graveyard of all these, like, failed attempts that we had tried. Like, for both of you, what are those graveyards look like? Like, what were some of the things that you tried that didn't work?

I mean, I. If I could tell you the amount of books and like, pray for your husband, prayers to pray over your husband, and books I had read about how men are created and wired and books about what it's like to be a praying wife. And even if I. Even when. When we finally hit big D day, and I would flip back through my prayer journal early on and be like, why weren't these prayers answered? So I think, like, praying and becoming more religious was certainly attempt that I made. And you made it too, like praying, reading books, going to counseling. But that wasn't, you know, like, for the treatment purpose that we needed. Just like talking about our feelings and talking about. I think empty promises were made. We used filters, like, we tried really hard to foolproof our tech in our home and do all of these things. And the bottom line was there. It wasn't what we needed. We needed some real thorough treatment that was in this arena.

What's interesting is I, as I hear Maggie describe that is all those things are helpful, right?

Absolutely.

They're not bad things.

No.

Right.

All those things are and were and still are helpful, but only when the full work is done. And that's kind of probably how I would answer the question, is, like, what didn't work was being 95% honest. And it didn't work to say, like, I'm going to feel better about what's going on, but I'm never going back there. Or like, hey, the past can be a secret, but I'll be honest this time going forward. And I can't tell you how many times I'd convinced myself that that's what I needed, because, okay, like, here's the reset. I'm never going back there. I can leave it there, and I'm just going to get it right going forward. And what we found out, and I think you guys know as well, is that that doesn't work because I wasn't willing to look at it holistically and say, I'm willing to do whatever it takes to get healthy here. And that included leaning into some really major hurt that I didn't know that we could recover from.

Well, and I think, like, what you were trying to do was still control the narrative and control the situation and not give yourself completely over to the recovery process.

Well, there's protection there. I'm able to protect myself. If I'm not. If I'm not sharing everything, then there is a semblance of control and protection that then I'm shielding myself from whatever's coming. Right. If I'm completely honest, and I would.

Say on my part, too, I prayed my heart out, but I didn't know the word boundary. So, yeah, that's there.

That is a good word. That's a. That's like a. I don't know. I don't know. We need to come up with some, like, here are the top 10 words we need to put. Come up with some category or something. Here are the words in recovery and healing that are essential. And boundaries is at the top of the list.

Sounds like a really terrible family feud episode.

Boundaries, trauma, coping, addictive cycles.

Oh, my gosh.

Things that I know in my own story is like, well, that's for other people with real problems. But, you know, I've just got this kind of little Christian problem with lust and pornography and other things, but not wanting to embrace that. That's all needed. And that's kind of leads into the next question. You guys have mentioned a couple of these, but I think really going all in on recovery does require facing some big hurdles or things that we don't want to do. And so you talked, Nate, about having to go 100% in on honesty and not leaving any stone unturned. And that idea of surrendering control to not controlling the process or the narrative. Can you think of other, you know, big hurdles that you two had to face as you moved into your journey towards healing and freedom?

Yeah. I think there's a real cultural hurdle and I don't intend to throw shade on the church as a whole because we love the church and they helped us and help us in so many ways and we need that. But that culture of no deep vulnerability or the culture of we're going to only talk about what's going well, which in turn piles weight on everyone who's not doing well, which, by the way, is all of us. I think that was a real hurdle. And that shame led to a lack of honest community. And I mean, I grew up being really awesome at being all things to all people. And I remember one of the first times I sat with my csat, she looked at me and said, you've built up all these little compartments. And you know, you know how to be Nate at work and you know how to be Nate at home, and you know how to be Nate on stage leading worship and Nate the FCA leader and Nate the basketball coacher, all the things. But I just didn't know how to be real and honest and vulnerable because everybody got a different part of me.

Yeah.

And I just, I didn't have the tools to be able to know how to do that. And I didn't know that it was safe enough because I think those were the things that led me to hide, was feeling like, you know, believe in the lies of the enemy that no one will accept and no one will love if I let those parts out. When in reality, I think the majority of us are there and we need to know that there's places that we can go, be authentic and real and find, find true healing there.

Yeah.

Yeah. I think for me, like, some of the biggest stumbles, stumbling blocks for us were. Well, it was. There was just so much there Right when we went through and started therapy and really started getting honest and doing the disclosure process with a trained csat, it just ensued so much of our relationship. We had been married 10 years. We at the time had a one and a half year old and a four week old when I found out everything the behavior had spanned from engagement on. And so there was just like. It just felt like there was nothing left that was sacred or special or. And I was still on maternity leave. Like, we ended up eventually moving back and relocating. So it's like we had to make new community, we had to find a new jobs. We. It was just like everything. But at the same time, when I look back, that also probably did in some ways help us start fresh and really build and carve out a new life together as we were getting healthier. So there's, like, beauty in it now, but at the time, it was just. It just was so much. It just covered all spans of our life.

Yeah. I mean, I'm trying to think of how that would, you know, because you have these relationships that are already existing with all these people that think you live life a certain way or you have some sort of reputation, and that reputation is just destroyed. Like, obliterated. When stuff like this happens, and we've heard it, like, story after story that when couples are honest about what's been going on, that friendships are lost, like, relationships are lost. Community, like, whether it's being kicked out of the church or being strongly encouraged to go to another community. Something like that. Like, it's not just your identity and your marriage. It's also like, who you do life with is completely shattered.

And I think what was the Both a blessing and a curse about that is now you just hinted at this. We couldn't run from it. And it. Because of how much was there and the way it unraveled in our life, we were kind of public figures in our community and we couldn't run from. It was everywhere. Right. I mean, and it was out there. And I'm super thankful for that. As difficult as that was, I wouldn't wish that on anyone. But I. I'm so thankful that it helped me be able to face reality at all costs and say, like, there's no hiding this. There's no stuffing it back in a compartment. It's out. And that led to. Yeah. Not knowing if we were going to make it and separating for a time period while we work through this process. It wasn't just like, okay, let's do some. Let's work with the CSAT and things are better. It was. It was a process of months.

Yeah.

If not years of not being sure if the damage was enough or was damage was too much to be able to recover from. It was just a lot. But at the same time, really thankful for that.

Yeah.

And I'm guessing that the CSAT is a part of the answer to this question, but when did everything finally click? And it's like, oh, okay. I've been thinking about this and viewing this problem completely wrong. And now things start to make sense almost in those moments too where you kind of get a glimpse of like, oh, okay, it's a brand new approach. Maybe there's some hope here. What was that moment for you guys?

I think for me you're right, it did happen. I remember my first appointment with my csat. Now, I mean, sadly, this came after two failed attempts with other local therapists locally. So things blew up. And that first week I had two different appointments with other therapists where I told them our story. And I just got met with these massively big eyes and they were speechless. And I'm a therapist now and so I just know, like, that's not therapeutic. You can't see someone wide eyed, speechless, shaking your face. Like neither one of them knew what to say or how to respond and were shocked. And I walked out of there just being like hopeless. And it was after one of those that I called my pastor's wife crying. And she was like, I don't know why I didn't think of this. My friend in Colorado is a CSAT and does just this. Let me see if she could talk to you. Because we were living in it in a different state at the time. And so that night I got on like an emergency phone call with her. She made time for me and just said like, yes, this is a thing. Yes, it sounds exactly like what I treat. And she said like, I want you to get this book, I want you to read and educate yourself and I want you to know that eventually we'll do a disclosure and you need to quit asking him questions, quit investigating, start writing things down. And then she was like, and you need to go self care, you need to, are you showering? Are you eating? Are you doing the things to take care of yourself? And so she just started like educating me. And then as I got educated, for me, that's when it started to make a little more sense. I mean, it was this weird dichotomy because the pain was so intense and it was still there. Yet it really did help me to be like, okay, if this is a brain thing and there's a reason behind, might not be that I'm, it's my fault. It might not be because I did something wrong or I wasn't good enough. And I'm not trying to say I don't at times still wrestle with that or get back in that negative lie that, that right that is there for many betrayed wives. But as I started educating myself and learning like what this is what it could be. What could be some of the factors in Nate's life that led to this. Once they started realizing, like, oh, there's recovery, there's steps we can take, there's things we can do, I just started to feel, like some safety in that, I guess, and some hope. That's when I started to be like, okay, once we had a plan, then I felt a sense of hope.

What she said. No, I mean, I think you said csat. And I mean, it was both the boundaries that our CSAT helped Maggie put in for me that helped me see that I couldn't control things anymore. I mean, I remember when, very early on, I think it was after that initial meeting, Maggie saying, probably gonna need you to take a polygraph test. And I remember that was the first night for me. I got a panic attack because I couldn't control everything that I'd been trying to control for years. And that began the process. And, like, going through that disclosure process and seeing the mess that I had made and not being able to control it was what helped that start to click. And I remember. I mean, it still took time. I remember two or three weeks into that process for me, of just still trying to control and manage bits and pieces of information. I remember mowing my backyard, and a David Crowder song came on. And again, I'm a pastor's kid that grew up in the church, was there every time it opened that, you know, walked down the aisle when I was 6. I had all the head knowledge. But I remember in that moment literally hitting my knees and in my backyard, probably with my lawnmower going, and just saying, like, God, I can't. I'm done. I'm done trying to control this. I can't do this anymore. And there has to be another way. And I feel like in a lot of ways, that was the first time that my relationship with Christ became real, because it wasn't just something that made my life better. Yeah, it was. Christ was somebody that I needed in my life, and that was kind of a moment that things began to click for me.

That's so cool.

Yeah. I think it's amazing when we do get in an environment where people understand what we're going through or they can relate. They've walked a pathway and seen something that actually works. Versus, you described the other outcome where someone just really has no clue other than to hopefully create some space for empathy. Like, wow, I'm really sorry that happened to you. I have no idea what to tell you. That's not nearly as healing as when you feel like, oh, I'm around people who get it. And I think we hear that even from a lot of people who listen to this podcast. They say that's what it is. For me, it's a place where those are my people. They know the journey I'm on or that I've been on. And obviously everyone's story is different and beautiful, but those elements of connection where people go, oh, I remember what that feels like. And there's steps that we took together. It just makes such a difference knowing that we're not alone in that journey.

Yeah, absolutely. I think later on we were like, community played a huge role in our level of achieving some health. And we couldn't live today healthily without the community that we both have around recovery, even just work, life, kids. We just couldn't live life without the in depth community we have now. People who get us and know us on a deep level.

Yeah. So talk a little bit more about that. You guys start meeting with the csat, there starts to be maybe a little bit of hope and traction. So what were some of the key elements that you found in that first, you know, first year or two towards finding freedom?

Yeah, I think for me, I mean, one of the big themes that I remember my CSAT continually talking to me about that I look back and see was so important, was just like truth and honesty at all costs. And I didn't know how to be a truth teller. I knew really well how to be all things to all people and really working to be honest no matter the cost and having some really deep accountability. I mean, early on, I think it looked like telling my friend, I need him to call me and ask me these eight questions every day for a while and just to have that.

That.

Authentic community in that way early on. And then as we began to find we knew we needed community, it was, it was difficult to find at that stage in life because I remember shortly after that we had moved and, you know, we knew we needed community, but we were, we were separated. We were trying to work on it. It was ugly. And I remember walking into like a new church, like married life, group going, hey, my wife and I, we're separated. Things are a mess right now. Like, it was, it was so we're so glad to be here. Yeah, here we go. So much that we needed that. Yeah. And we didn't know how to navigate through that. But man, we are really thankful for some really authentic people who just said, you're, you're. Come, come along with us while you're working to get healthy wherever you're at.

Yeah.

And. And we needed that. So I think the other thing that comes to mind to your question is just, I think regular self assessment, learning how to do that was a key of just how to. How to continually look at myself and have tools to be able to do that. To say, like, how am I doing today? Am I off track?

Is that a shout out to the faster scale?

Yeah, it feels like it to me. Yeah.

One of the best tools out there. PureDesire.org resources.

There you go. There you go.

Yeah, so. But, yeah, I mean, I think that was it. That was a key too, and still is today. And as we're working to try to stay and be the healthiest versions of ourselves, to be able to kind of have that self intimacy. Work is really important too.

Yeah. I would say it was like a super slow. The first couple years, man, they just feel like. I felt like it was 10 years and two, it just slow and long and not sure where, you know, that, like, if you could just see the end, you could endure it. But we're just not sure what would happen. And so it's just a ton of work. And we didn't have a local csat, so we would have to travel out to Colorado to meet with ours because there wasn't one in our state. And then because our story was a fairly public fall, one of the things, like Nate said, we just didn't hide when we moved. We didn't hide who we were or what we were dealing with or what we'd been through. And so much of our life was radically changed. We were living under such incredible tight boundaries anyways, that Nate, you know, like, we would have to tell people, like, just we had to be real about it.

And so I've got to hear, Nate, how do you unpack that? Because I've, you know, I've moved a few times, and people are like, oh, you know, you're new in town. Why'd you guys move? And I'm curious, like, Nate, how did you learn to answer that question when people say, why did you move in.

Front of the mirror? Right. Every day just like, okay, here's. Yeah.

And I think to your point, I mean, really figuring out how to be authentic but also be boundaried a little bit? I mean. Yeah, to that question, I remember, like, we would kind of joke about. I think I had like three distinct answers. One, just like, oh, life is pretty crazy. We had to, you know, we. We moved to get.

Right. That's like the grocery Store answer.

Yeah.

Right. And then to be closer to kind of the deeper.

The deeper of just like, yeah, things. Things were really hard. I made a lot of mistakes and really working on our marriage, you know, and then. Then there's kind of the. The inner circle people that you get to let into that really differently. But it was a challenge, for sure of, because the old me wanted to take over and just, you know, smile and be like, oh, these are great things.

Oh, we got a job for a job. Which is not the case.

That wasn't true.

Yeah.

Yeah. I think there's a lot of wisdom.

There, those things to say. And to what level of intimacy do we want to have with people? Where they fall and who gets to know what information.

Gosh. Something that you said that I feel like is important. And there's this fear, I think, that we carry when being honest about what's going on, that we just assume people are going to be like, oh, my. Almost like the two therapists you saw at the beginning, eyes wide, like, oh, my gosh. Okay. And then they're just going to, like, awkward, awkwardly walk out of the room and not be like. In my experience, when you're honest about stuff, even people who haven't been through this big recovery journey or, you know, have major addictions or struggles that maybe they've dealt with recently, like, people don't respond that way. Typically, like, people are off, especially in the church, like, oh, gosh, come on in. Like, sit down. Like, this is totally. And I think it's something that we. It's an unwarranted fear. I believe in a lot of situations where there are far more people who are willing to say, thank you for being honest. Come sit down. You are welcome here. Like, process, figure out your marriage, but do it here with us. We're happy to help you and be that for you, but there's this fear and this twist in our mind where it's like, they're just gonna shun us and push us away. And I think it's important to understand that. I mean, to be those people, for sure. But then also to know that, like, the church may be a scary place, but it's also not the worst place to seek out community. Being honest. Right?

I agree. And I think you can do that. And I think we've really worked and learned how to, like, be completely open and vulnerable, but with some boundaries where I don't have to give you all the details. But if someone's like, you know, how's marriage? You know, I might say, like, It's a really hard week this week. Sometimes marriage is really hard, where it's like, I'm giving authentic account, but maybe not giving, like the gore of detail that I would maybe only reserve for like a handful of very few people.

Right. Yeah. It's funny too, because there's that somehow I'm doing something wrong because I'm not sharing everything. It's like, no, no, no, there's tons of wisdom there. Like, stay there. That's a happy place to be.

Yeah, find that middle. I mean, you don't want to dump all of your information on people who maybe aren't safe. I mean, we've certainly learned that.

Yeah, I think a lot of us have been there for sure. Okay, so I guess the answer to some of this, you might have answered this being such a public thing that happened to you guys, but this is still not something that we wake up and we're like, I'm really excited to share about my sexual brokenness and how it blew up my marriage. I had a podcast for thousands of people to hear. What was that shift for you guys? How did you find the courage initially to start sharing your story and then maybe even too what's it looked like now that you've been sharing it as often as you have, how has it changed as well?

When we moved, like Nate said, we found a church. We found a life group. In our life group, we openly shared, like, yeah, we're sitting here. Yes, we have like a three month old and a one and a half year old and we sleep in separate bedrooms. We are completely separated, but trying to figure this out. So we were open and honest with that group. And in our group was a worship pastor at our church. And so we just, I think you had talked, met with our, even our head pastor. We just were like going to be really open with that. And so that led a year later to our pastor doing a series where he was like, would you ever just record a snippet of forgiveness? Right. And so we did. We prayed about that and we were in a pretty good headspace. And so I had just really read the book Prodigal God by Timothy Keller. And it really, like, for me, kind of was a huge part of my religious restoration, really. And just like, oh my gosh, I. Nate has been the prodigal son, but I've been the big brother, just standing there mad at God and missing out on the feast that now Nate was having with the Lord because as he talked about, he had like this great. The Lord was like moving in his Life. But I was really having a opposite religious experience. Like, lord, what about all those prayers early on in marriage that I was praying over my husband? And what about all this journal full of prayers that, like, how could this possibly have happened? And so we were kind of having an opposite religious experience. But that book really helped me just kind of open my eyes and see, like, I'm actually missing out on communion and connection with God because of my anger, because of my hurt here, and because of not understanding the why that God had. And so that was kind of a perfect timing to really share that. So we shared. And then that led to, like, a year later, would you share again, but this time on the stage? And then at the time, we were also. By then, we were, like, four years into recovery. And so then we started slowly becoming our pastor's, like, back pocket. When someone would call in the church with this, and he's like, I don't know what to do.

I know who to send these people to.

That's right. So then we slowly started being like, hey, if we send a babysitter to your house, would you go show up at their house and just minister to these people? And so we did that for a long period of time.

That's cool.

And we were both working different jobs, and so we just slowly started sharing more and more from the stage. We slowly started sharing more and more with other couples. We slowly got asked to lead the establishment of. Of, like, a sexual addiction recovery program in our church. And so we got another pastor in our church to get PSAT trained. And he. A group of us came to one of the Pure Desire universities and learned about groups, and we started having groups meet at our church. And so we just started doing this mentoring and. And work in that arena. But I. I say it's a fluke, but the Lord knew what he was doing. I had gotten my master's in counseling right out of college. I got asked to stay on and coach our golf program and get, like, an assistant grad and get my master's paid for. And so I was like, well, I'll do counseling.

That's great. Yeah, for sure.

And then I did not love the experience I had. And so then I went back to education and taught. And so then once we were about maybe seven years into our own recovery, RCSAT finally said to me, like, you're. You're showing up at people's house, you're mentoring them. You're telling them, hey, go find a csat. You're bringing up all these resources, and there's Not a resource in your state. Why are you not, like, why aren't you doing this?

Yeah.

And so then we started just really praying about that. And eventually we're able to just take the step to get licensed in our state.

Wow.

And then immediately I went on and got trained as a CSOT as well, so that we could start helping professionally cool people in our state.

That's so cool.

Yeah. God works. It's awesome.

And there was a lot in there. I mean, I think I would answer your question is maybe a little bit differently. What. What made it easier, I think, was be still trying to be healthy myself and still trying to do work with no matter how much I felt like I was making improvement. Like, you hit. You said it, Trevor. Vulnerability is always hard. It's always challenging to share. And so I think to continue to have people around me, accountability around me, continue to work with a csat, to work with a coach, just to stay healthy myself, help keep me grounded enough where when the opportunities arose to be able to share authentically our story, we tried, if we were in an okay place and in a healthy place, to be able to step into that and do that. And it was. I mean, Maggie gave some highlights there, but it's really crazy to see God continue to open doors as we begin to do that.

I just think, like, at first for us, it was like, we must be the only people on the planet who are in this level of crisis and experiencing this level of insanity that we felt like it had created. Right. And then we did support groups ourselves, and it was like, okay, a breath of fresh air. We're not alone. Other people get it, and there's resources and there's help, and that felt really great. But then the first time that we sat and talked with another couple and we were able to help them, and the feeling of walking away and feeling like, you know what? God is using the garbage in our life and the pain for his glory, it just, like, lit a different level of, like, okay. I think that also probably helped my healing because it made sense of the, like, why God questions that I had it. So I started to be like, okay, God, maybe you can use this. Maybe you have a plan that's bigger than me that I can make sense of. And so that was a huge part of the healing process for us, too. That just totally has brought our heart to where we're at now to just wanting to help people.

Yeah. Yeah. I can so relate to that, because I think the first times you tell your story, you do kind of take this Deep breath. And like, okay, here we go. And how are they going to respond? And just the fear of kind of having that be known by someone else. And then when they not only respond positively with like, oh, thank you for sharing, but they go to that next level of because me too, because that's our story. And you start to have somebody. In my story, it was having men come to my office that they would share their story, and when they would get to the end and say, and I never felt safe to tell anyone until you shared your story. And that moment of like, wow, Lord, thank you. That out of fear, I almost chose not to share it and just try to ignore it and go on with my life and be thankful for my healing but not share it. But in that choice of sharing, I gave someone else that same space that they never had. And you do kind of go to that 180of like, wow, this is amazing that my brokenness allows someone else to face theirs. And together now we're experiencing new grace and freedom, and it just changes everything.

Yeah, it does.

It really does. Yeah.

My buddy. My buddy Luke describes it as like giving people the gift of going second and what. Like, what a gift that is. And people did that for us. There were couples early on that people put us in touch with who had been through a similar experience. And it was such a gift to say there's hope and thankful for pure desire in a massive way to connect to resources and groups right where they can find hope in a time that seems really, really, really hopeless.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I know there's a lot of ways and many, many things you could say. As you know, you're now at 10 years in your healing journey, but when someone asks about how this has changed your marriage or your parenting or just relationships in general, what are the main things you'd say? How has this changed your relationship?

I mean, that's such a loaded question, right? I mean, I think related to marriage, like, I never thought that a marriage was possible where there was, I mean, just a deep level of intimacy, and there's nothing like it. And it's really hard and really awesome just to be able to be. To fight, to be known inside of a relationship. I think it's what we all long for, and it's why we don't share when we're hiding is because we don't believe that we're going to be accepted. And so I think just that that's what comes to mind. First for me, that deep level of just intimacy and the joy that can Come with that inside a relationship where you're known and loved and accepted. And I think also just think about parenting and how different. It enables us to be able to parent with grace and to say things like, we make mistakes all the time, but, like, we can. Hopefully we try to own that with our kids and say, like, we're not perfect. You don't have to be either. There's grace, and that's changed those relationships in a massive way. I don't know. What would you add there?

Yeah, I mean, I would say the same thing. Like, it's just changed how we do relationship in general. Like, my friendships are so much deeper. There's certainly, like, a smaller pool of people. Right. But they're super deep. And, like, nothing in those deep friendships is off limits. We can challenge each other, we can talk. We can have different opinions. Marriage is the same way. Like, it's just such a deeper level of knowing each other, of vulnerability, empathy. I think without years of empathy and understanding and validation from Nate, I probably couldn't be as healed as I feel I am. Right. And all of that has changed. Parenting, just this. I very much grew from a, like, you're fine. Quit crying or we'll give you something to cry about narrative.

Right?

And so, like, I was a tough cookie, and I would have raised my kids to be tough cookies as well, but to realize, like, wait, that maybe isn't it. Maybe it's okay to say, hey, you're crying. What are you crying about? Let's talk about it and let's assess. Is this something that, you know is worth crying about or, you know, like, really just, like, empathy and love and validation. Those were not on the topic of. They just weren't. They don't come natural for me. Even now, I still have to really work for, like, genuine validation. You know, I joke and say, like, when his fantasy football team loses that week, I have to really dig deep to be like, I'm really sorry. I know that's hard for you. Instead of just, like, a general, oh, that's so hard.

Just get over it.

Who cares, right?

Everything in me wants to be like, okay, moving on.

Appreciate you bringing up my losing team on the podcast. I really appreciate it.

Yeah, bro, we can, like, let's unpack.

We're not.

Right.

I'm not this week.

Lecture about pediatric cancer is devastating. Football is not. But I'm learning how to go. You know what? If it's a big deal to you, I get it. Yeah, it's a big deal.

Then, yeah, the emotions are indicators. Of something real going on, whether we think it's important from RC or not. For sure. For sure. It's funny, as I'm about to ask this question, I'm thinking like, maybe that is some of the ministry God's given you. You can empathize with your husband losing in fantasy football. But beyond that, beyond that. And you guys have already talked and I think that's one of my favorite things about just getting to hear your story is it's so clear all of these ways that God has used you and continues to use you guys. But just highlight it for some people. What are maybe some of the things you're most excited about right now that you get to do in ministry because of your story, because of this experience you guys had.

Man, there's so much there too. I mean, Maggie laid out just a lot of the things that just the doors that God's open. You know, a couple years ago, I walked out of the business world and we launched a private practice. And now Maggie csat, and I'm a certified life and recovery coach. And we get to do this work full time together, which is beautiful and hard at times and awesome all the time. But to just yet to get to sit and to see, to get to help out of that space that we were also in and to be reminded on a daily basis to get to sit and talk about the things that keep us healthy on a regular basis. It is such a gift and we are so grateful for that opportunity and that God's allowed us to be able to do that. I remember so many times I felt like ministry was done. Ministry was over. There's too much, it's too heavy. And God's been so faithful to continue to open up doors and to give opportunities for us to do that. And so, yeah, I mean, I think getting to work together. Maggie's one of two CSATs here in the state of South Dakota still, there's only two. And just the gift to be able to help people out of our brokenness. It's pretty awesome.

Yeah, I would say, like, my favorite thing in ministry is just helping people when they come in in that crisis period. Like I talked about, where it feels like we feel like we've tried everything or we don't know where to turn and we got your name and to be like, okay, to give people direction, to say, I want you to do this this week and next week we're going to do this. And one of my favorite things is when we get chances to do some intensive work with couples who are in crisis and help them kind of walk through the disc. Or we even do some family of origin intensives, like when we get to sit for a handful of days in a room with a couple and really help them make bigger steps than what stereotypical one hour of therapy every week or every two weeks allows. That's when I think we're just really working out of an area that we just feel the most passionate about.

That's awesome. So cool.

Yeah. Getting to pay it forward to see our story help other people's stories is so much, I think what it's about. And you guys mentioned this at the beginning of the podcast before we came on the air, but I think it's a good place to end. You mentioned this being a real full circle moment for you guys of kind of coming around and now being sharing your story on the podcast. But think for a moment about those that may be closer to the beginning of their journey and their story. As you look back, what kind of encouragement would you like to give to anyone listening? And I think particularly for those that are earlier in their journey, what comes to mind when you say, man, seeing where we are now, here's the thing we'd want you to remember or keep in mind as you work on your healing journey and recovery.

I just remember myself feeling so, like I said before, we are the only ones and no one's safe to talk about this with. And so I just think that I would just tell people that like, you don't have to be alone, right? There's so many resources. If you're listening to this, you are already connected to one of the best resources. You don't have to be alone. So reach out and find a coach or a counselor or a support group or people who are trained in this arena of addiction or of betrayal, trauma. Even if it's not addiction, if you've just been betrayed, that creates a trauma. And like, don't assess that on your own. Just reach out and don't be stuck. Don't stay there. Because you know, I tell clients all the time, like, you can keep doing what you're doing and do nothing and stay stuck. You can leave the relationship, but the problems you have right now will follow you and show up in the next ones you have. Like it or not, it's just reality. Or you can take the hard road of doing self work and reaching out and getting help. And it's hard, but I just haven't met anyone who's done it, who's truly done the work, who's regretted it.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

I mean, hope is such the word that comes to mind. I mean, there's just. If you're listening and it feels scary to walk through this road or you're walking the road and you feel alone, and it feels like, is this ever going to end? It's hopeless. Is there any hope on the other side that there's hope? There's hope. And not just hope to, like, survive and just be in this, like, surviving cycle for the rest of your life, but, like, hope to find freedom. Freedom from the things that have kept us stuck our entire lives, and freedom to be able to find authentic community and that there's hope for a marriage that was completely broken and devastated. They can turn into something really, really beautiful on the other side that there's hope. I. Nick, I remember you talking about Trevor. It might have been you talking about kind of the surgery concept of, like, it's never fun to walk through surgery. I blew out my knee a few years ago and had to have reconstructive surgery. Like, that was. That was a really painful experience. But there's health on the other side, and it's so hard to step into that where there's fear, but there's so much more on the other side of going through that. And if you're just in the early stages of that or feeling the hurt or terrified to walk into surgery.

Yeah.

Yeah. Just take it from us. There's. There's beautiful. There can be really beautiful hope on the other side.

Yeah.

Don't do it alone. Yeah.

Yeah. Well said.

And that, like, so. And this is what. I freaking love therapists. They're just my favorite. Like, I just can't. The world needs to know. I just love therapists. You guys are amazing. And I, like, feel like an honorary therapist. I'm not, but I just feel like. Because I love them so much. But anyways, I like. The whole point of these episodes is to give. What you guys are describing is to give people that sense of hope and vision for a future, to give a sense of belonging, like, oh, I'm not alone. And so it means a lot to us that you guys would. Come on. I know that it was cool for you guys, and that's sweet, but, like, it's also really cool for us just to have you guys on and share your story and know that it's gonna help people and reach people. And I mean, my favorite part is that you didn't just stop at just sharing your story in church. Like, you went and got, like, licensed and certified and are now doing this professionally, which. Man, that's a lot of commitment, time, money, energy, all that, and you guys are doing it. And so we're grateful for you guys. Grateful for your story. Thanks for being with us. Yeah.

I can't say it enough. We are thankful for pd. And if you're listening to this and trying to say, like, what is Pure Desire all about? Like, you're at the right place with the right resources, and you guys have been instrumental in our journey, and we're just. We're really grateful.

Hey, and shout out to the state of South Dakota. We are looking for CSAT number three. Who's going to step up and be number three so that the next time Maggie shares a story, she'll be like, and I'm. I'm two of three.

That's right. That's right. There's an up curve happening. Yeah. Trajectory, for sure.

Yes.

All right. So wherever you're at on your journey, Pure Desire is here to help create a roadmap for your healing. If you or someone you know is impacted by sexual brokenness or betrayal trauma, go to PureDesire.org and begin the healing journey today. If this podcast is helpful on your journey, please share it with others. Make sure to subscribe to the podcast. Drop us a review. It helps others find the show, and each week we are putting out new content to help you on the road to healing and freedom. And lastly, never stop being healthy.