282 - Recognizing & Changing Our Digital Patterns w/ Jason Mathew

Welcome to the Pure Desire Podcast, helping you take back your life from unwanted sexual behavior and betrayal trauma. What is up, people? I am your host, Trevor Windsor, and you're listening to episode 282 of the Pure Desire Podcast. You're joining me, as always, is my co host, Nick Stumbo. Bing, Bing, Bing Crosby. That was funny. Because some people will get that notification is my guess.

Yeah, just trying to mimic, you know, cell phone notifications. I have a question for you, Trevor. What is the longest cell phone notification sound that you've ever heard someone have on their cell phone?

It might be my. If I have my sound on, I have the minions, the B do, B do, B do for every text message. It might be that one, but I don't know. I'm actually not sure.

Yeah, because we poke a little fun at my mom because when her cell phone's on, she has this guitar thing and it goes. It's literally seven. So every time she gets a message like this, you're like, mom, seriously, you need to change your notification. Because that is so long. She's like, I know. I can't figure out how to change it. So.

Oh, my gosh. I think I wanna. I just. I want to, because it's so funny. This is literally. Can you hear that in there? That's.

That's what it is every time you get a text when you're.

But I never have my sound because I'm not.

My mom always does. Love you.

Okay, so the reason why we're talking about notifications and I awkwardly showed you the Beado notification on my phone.

That was a neat insight we had.

On Jason Matthew, who is leading an organization called Lead Me not, that really is trying to push for digital wellness, specifically when it comes to understanding also our unwanted sexual behavior. And we talked to him about recognizing our digital patterns and then taking steps to changing them.

Yeah, and just like those notification noises or the buzz when it's sitting on our table or desk, we have in many ways become so ingrained in our thinking to just go to our smartphone, go to our computer, go to our tablet, check something, look something up. And I think as we bring up today, many of us have drifted into areas where we'd say, I'm less than healthy. Without even realizing it. We just little by little kind of made that part of our thinking. And there's a lot of research out there that does show how disruptive even those text message alerts can be to our things like productivity and creativity and sleep and relationships. And so this is, I think, one component of recovery, but something that increasingly in today's technological world is something we really have to be aware of, is what impact is my technology having on me and how do I make sure that I'm using it in a healthy way. And I, I think today's conversation was awesome. Jason gave a ton of great ideas and I, I think their, you know, their platform, they're, the app that they're using is really going to be revolutionary for people that choose to use it.

Yep, absolutely. It really was a good conversation. We're really excited for you to hear it. But before we get there, I just want people to know, today is Giving Tuesday, the release of this episode. It is Giving Tuesday and Nick, we have a really cool opportunity for people to participate and join with us and helping paying our healing forward.

Yeah. And some people may not know what Giving Tuesday is, and that's okay. It's kind of something that's been created online by a lot of nonprofits for a lot of years now to just say this is a day, the Tuesday after Thanksgiving, where we can do something tangible with the things that God has blessed us with to then pay it forward to bless others. And for us at Pure Desire, one of those areas has become the counseling scholarship. Because the year long journey of counseling at Pure Desire, we know is transformational. But because it's year long, that also means it's quite expensive. And for many couples or individuals that truly, desperately need it, they're also in a season where they can least afford it. And so the counseling scholarship enables us to provide help and care to people that otherwise would have to say no because of the cost associated with it. So we know many, many people listen to this podcast. Their lives have been touched or changed because of something we do that's brought them healing and wellness. And if they're at a stable place in their finances, maybe they could pay it forward a little bit and help others that are looking to make this journey work for them. And that's what this Giving Tuesday is all about for us.

Yep.

And we're trying to raise $10,000 for the counseling scholarship. And if you'd like to participate with us in that, please go to PureDesire. Or a few more things. Subscribe to the podcast. We're on all the major platforms. Follow us on social media earedesirepdmi and we do have this episode up on YouTube. Just search pure Desire Ministries. And with that, here is our conversation with Jason Matthew on recognizing and changing our unhealthy digital patterns. Jason Matthew, welcome to the Pure Desire podcast man. Thanks for being with us for the first time.

Thanks guys. It's an honor to be here. Thanks for having me.

Yeah, you and I have got to spend a little bit of time on the phone chatting it up a little bit. We nerded out a little bit on marketing and some business stuff. We'll get into the organization that you're a part of, but kind of in conjunction with that, we wanted to look at our digital patterns and how specifically those connect to unwanted sexual behaviors. And I'm really excited about this conversation. This is not a conversation we've had yet, at least for a full episode, so I'm excited to get into it. But as you're new on the podcast, can you just introduce yourself to our listeners, give some background on your story and your organization? Lead Me Not.

Yeah, absolutely. So, Jason Matthew, I'm a product manager at IBM, so that's my full time job. I work with engineers and designers to create automation software and technologies. But I was also founded, I'm the CEO of Lead Me not, which is a digital wellness platform that we created to help the world overcome unstructured or unhealthy and destructive digital habits. And you know, we've talked about it and I'm very vocal and open about my story regarding kind of what was the impetus to create Lead Me Not. And you know, as, as I look at my, my walk as a Christian growing up in the church and kind of my understanding of not just what is sin or kind of what does it mean to, to honor God in everything that I'm doing in life and being discipled and discipling others. That was kind of my road towards conviction of certain behaviors. And the way I was living grew over time. And it was whether it's first was with drinking or second was with the music I listened to and as it related to my experiences with sexuality and dating, that was probably the last thing but the biggest right? Where in, in 2018, I just moved to Austin, Texas and the Lord just really convicted me of having. I've been using dating apps and technology which I get into, to act out physically with women and through that process started with recovery through my church in Austin and through that process of sitting and walking with guys and having a sponsor starting using software to try and curb my behavior and realize like, hey, this isn't really fitting my use case and ask the question like is there and as a technologist, like hey, is there a better way of doing this right? And like, where did this come from? How did this stuff Start and how do I now make this work for me? But then is there actually other people out there where they need something, quote, unquote, better, more effective? And that kind of started down the journey of where lead me not came from. The vision.

Yeah. Is it weird that, like, he says he works for IBM and I just immediately think he's a big deal? I'm just like, oh, my gosh, so much smarter than everyone else, for some reason knows how to do things no one else does. It's like a magic trick. I don't know, is it spiritual gifting? I'm not sure.

Well, he is developing a digital platform, so that already puts him in a sphere of understanding beyond what I comprehend. So, yeah, I think, Jason, we're really excited to have this conversation because it is an area that feels like whether inside the church or outside the church, pretty much every single person in our culture is impacted by social media and apps and the web, all the different websites people visit. And it's an area where I've always heard it said, we tend to be asking, can we do this? And not enough people are asking, should we do this? And so things just develop in the digital world at a faster and faster pace, like, oh, look what we can do, look what we can do. And then all of us have developed these habits or patterns of how we interact with social media and apps and our cell phones and all of that. And it seems like what you're talking about here is how do we use those in a way that's healthy? So define what. What do you mean by digital wellness? Can you define that a little bit more for us?

Yeah, absolutely. And I initially tried defining that by myself, and then I had to kind of lean on different resources of like, hey, what's a. What's a smart way of defining this?

There we go.

This is less smart and more just. I think it's right to the point. It's how do I. How do I interact with technology in a intentional and healthy way? Right. And what is the pursuit of that healthy behavior and intentionality look like? And, you know, probably in the broadest sense, that's what we could define. And then when you. When you drill down deeper, there was a diagram that I saw that really articulates well, kind of what I've been trying to verbalize, not just to myself and even to those I that I talk to about digital wellness and even to especially to our users is, man, like, hey, what are these areas that digital wellness affects and impacts? And it's the spiritual, the mental, the physical, the social, the intellectual. And then you have this idea of, like, safety and privacy as well. Right. And each of those things are really different. But if my goal is to optimize all six of these or maybe one or a combination of some of these, then, you know, I think that's. That's really the goal is, hey, how do we. How do we intentionally interact with technology? And what does the pursuit of that look like? But also in the context of these kind of six core areas of our life, and probably what we're. What you hear most frequently is kind of the. The mental, the emotional, and the spiritual. Yeah, but I like this kind of more. More holistic approach of looking right at all.

That's something that I've spent a lot of time thinking about, reading about, and exercising just in my life over the last few years. And it's funny too, because I think about technology. Like, this morning I woke up and I worked out and I used the Apple Fitness plus platform, which is a technology platform that's on my phone, and I screen share it to my tv and I watch it and can do it. So for me, that is an area where digital wellness is taking place. I'm using it. Something that. Because I love what you're saying, it's a holistic view of who I am as a person. Are the ways I'm using technology, enhancing or bettering myself in all of these ways that make up a holistic human being. And I think that that's really what I mean. As I was thinking about this question in general, that's just something I've experienced. So I love where you're coming from with that holistic thing.

Yeah. I think a lot of us view our technology as being kind of neutral. And I think the reality is that we either serve our technology or the technology serves us. And that's where I feel like we're not asking the is this helping me? Is this something I should be doing versus something I can do? And so I love your definition there. What is intentional and what is healthy? So that at the end of the day, we do feel like technology really serves me. It helps me live the kind of life I want to live with, the people I want to live it with, and doesn't end up sucking kind of a part of my life out. And now I'm serving the technology in a way that is unhealthy. And I think what we're here to really try to highlight today is for many of us, if. If it stays in that sphere of kind of being we think of it as neutral. We tend to engage in patterns before we've even thought about is this healthy or not. And then by the time we figure out that it is unhealthy, we're so deep into it, it's really hard to imagine our life without it. I mean, I even think of guys as, as I do group with them and we're talking about our need to establish healthy guardrails and, and the thought of like, hey, maybe you need to get rid of your smartphone for a while. And it's like, I can't even comprehend a life without that because it's so integrated into my life that now I'm at a point I can't even imagine how to do life without it. And I think that's maybe an extreme example of a lot of the ways we use technology is we can get so deep into it that we just don't know how to live differently. But sometimes we need to. If it's really creating a lot of unhealth and a lack of intentionality.

Yeah, exactly, exactly. And I think even that point about, you know, I know we're going to get into this, but it's like, hey, like, are we. What is that even? What are the questions we're asking ourselves and what are the things where that we need to be super aware of? And again, intentional and asking ourselves and maybe asking others or being asked around, really poking and prodding at figuring out is this truly an unhealthy behavior? And I think that, I mean, we'd all agree that's true for anything if it's offline or online. Yeah. Because there's clearly ways where you can use, like you said, your Apple Smart watch. You're optimizing your physical health. Hopefully not to the point of idolizing or like obsessing over every metric and data point.

Yeah, yeah, I try not to. Anyways, I'm working on it. But let's kind of get into that because we're already kind of answering this question a little bit. But we all have these patterns, specifically digital patterns. What is it that makes a digital pattern healthy or unhealthy? Like, where's that line? How do we distinguish between the two?

Yeah, yeah. So, you know, the bat. When I, When I was going through recovery at the Austin Stone in, In Austin, Texas, we. There was one of our, one of our large groups. We, we had dedicated towards an assessment of determining, like, how does someone know if they're addicted to alcohol? And I went back and I couldn't find the original assessment, but Reached out and I got it. I just want to read, I just want to read some of these questions. It's like 100 question screener. So I have used alcohol or it's actually alcohol, drugs. I've used alcohol or drugs to a degree that impaired my judgment or self control when using alcohol or drugs. I've embarrassed myself or damaged my reputation. I've been a poor steward of my time due to my consumption of alcohol or drugs or managing difficult motions has become a reason I used alcohol or drugs. You probably see where I'm going with this. I went back to that because I said, man, you could replace alcohol or drugs with any technology and you'll get almost exactly the same response, right? For me, managing difficult emotions has become a reason I used Tinder or online dating. I've become a poor short of my time due to my consumption of Facebook, Instagram, I mean insert anything. And I think that's the part that, I mean, there's guys, a lot of guys I hold accountable through lead me, not that have taken me up on my offer to be a partner. And guys will ask me like, hey, is this a healthy or unhealthy thing? Someone, someone just messaged me over the weekend saying, hey, I think I want to listen to music while I go to sleep. Over the six to seven hours that I'm asleep, like, is this, is that okay? And I was, I was thinking, I was like, at first I thought it was a little silly of like, oh, of course it's okay. Like, why? But then I thought about it and said, well, the way he described his story and kind of even his questioning of, hey, should I be listening to music as I'm going to sleep? It's. Yeah, there's a. Absolutely a world where that kind of, where that consumption could be seen as unhealthy if it impaired your judgment, if you're embarrassing, I mean, you know, whatever, whatever those are, right? There's n number of ways that could be true. But I think to truly understand if something's healthy or unhealthy, you have to really ask yourself of, is this hindering me, me and those around me in some way? And I think sometimes it can be a really obvious answer, like, hey, I'm, I've spent. And this is not an exaggeration, right? We, like I've, I've spent two hours on YouTube when I should have been working on some assignment for work or for school. And you know, we see kind of the domino effect of that. And I think some things are more subtle of Hey, I, you know, the 10 minutes I check my phone in the morning is actually before I get up and started is actually throwing me off completely. And so you have to, again, you have to be super intentional. You're trying to figure out the right questions and even just being open about.

Yeah.

What you're doing and the implications of that too.

Yeah. I think what you're pointing out is that a lot of these questions, you know, these patterns are unique to us. And I think that's what makes what you're doing so powerful. You're trying to put in someone's hands that ability to start to discern in their story, in their pattern, in the kind of life they want to live. Is something healthy for you or not? Because for what one, I mean, and I think there are definitely areas that we'd all generally agree, like, okay, if you're doing these certain behaviors, just like with drugs and alcohol, we'd all say, if you're ever getting into a vehicle and operating it while impaired, that's a really unhealthy, scary behavior. And everyone would say you need to change. But in another question, like you said, well, if I'm at a social context and I have two beers, is that unhealthy? Well, one person might say, absolutely yes. And another person would say, for me, no. And I think that with technology, we're in kind of that same place that there are apps that I know because of my story, the things that trigger me and even ways that I've acted out in the past, I have to stay off those apps. I just, I can't. But another person will say, oh, that's not an issue for me at all. And they'll bring up another app. And I'm like, I've never even thought of struggling. Like, that's not a part of my story. And it seems odd because maybe even, you know, for two people like that, we have similar stories of, like, what is a trigger. But just because of where we've gone to in the past to find, whether it's pornography or unhealthy things, our pathways just look different. And I think having that healthy self awareness of what is it for me, what defines health or unhealth is going to be some individual responses. And I think we're just wise to start looking at our life through that grid.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think two things that came to mind when talking about healthy or unhealthy is how do you tend to feel about yourself after you've partaken? You know, if it's something that you do, you know, and maybe it is have two beers at an outing, or maybe it is scroll Facebook or Instagram for 30 minutes. If @ the end you find yourself beating yourself up and feeling shame, I think that's worth exploring. Like, why do you feel that way? Do you. Is it that you're procrastinating and that, you know, you're trying to escape? Like, you know, I think that there's something to be said about how I feel about myself in that situation. But then the other thing is, is this thing that I'm doing, is it pushing me toward connection with other people, like living vulnerably with others around me, or is it isolating me from those relationships? And I think that that in my mind is the biggest indicator if something is healthy or unhealthy. Because, you know, you look at pornography, that is not a habit that tends to push us into deeper connection with other people. That's something that pulls us away and isolates us out of fear and shame and guilt and whatever. And so I think that where we're at on the scale, or at least the like, is this pushing me, you know, toward connection or away from connection? And how we answer that question, I think helps evaluate. Is a digital pattern healthy or unhealthy?

Right. I love it. You guys are right.

So this might seem kind of obvious to some, but let's talk a little bit more about this side of it is how do our digital patterns connect specifically to unwanted sexual behavior? How do you describe those connections?

Yeah, so similar to the. As you put it in this last one is like, in a way, it really depends on the individual. And, you know, we all have patterns that can be unhealthy or healthy. And then similarly, we all have different triggers of what could lead to unwanted sexual behavior. And I started I. When I. When I came, when I was. When the Lord put this vision lead me not on my heart. A lot of the. A lot of the motivation outside of me saying, you know, I didn't. I didn't feel like there was some. This could fit my use case was I. That was paired with me sitting in an open share group, number of open share groups with guys. Right? And I was, again, I was not there for research. I was there for myself. But hearing the same, like, I'm not kid, I'm not even kidding. Like, guy after guy, week after week, like, hey, I was on YouTube. I was just innocently scrolling. And then, you know, I was just, like, I was watching some not so innocent videos. And then, you know, I found Myself on pornhub. And then someone else was like, you know, I was on Reddit, I was looking up this answer to this question. Like, I was really on my mind. And then I saw this ad, and then I saw this not safe for work thread. And then like, oh, I was on like, Red Tube. And it's like, that's when I started, like, man, we all, like, we all have these patterns, and how do we start to understand what those patterns are, but then figure out the why of, of where all this is happening? And then I was like, trying to find, like, man, I wonder if anyone's done research on this. I couldn't find anything. And then, then I started reading Unwanted by Jay Stringer, which, you know, you all know very well. And within the first chapter or probably the first few pages, Jay talks about how sexual brokenness is not random. Right. And he, He. There's this example of one of his clients that was really into, I think it was like domination pornography. And when he dug deeper, realized or determined that this particular client had a very domineering and abusive mother. Right. And I forget the exact language, but like, making these connections and. Right. So like, you know, Jay then talks about our family roots and a lot like the, the different types. But I think the, the point there though is that, hey, we, if sexual brokenness is not random, given our past. Yeah. Right. Then similarly, what we're doing online and how we are in engaging with digital unwanted sexual behavior is also not random. Because even these things that are leading us towards it, even if they are so evident or so obvious of like, yeah, well, you're on Reddit and you're like, of course you're gonna eventually run into some stuff. Right. That even the fact that you're on Reddit that late at night on YouTube can be for things that you may think are random that aren't. Right. Because like, hey, this is your coping mechanism or this is a way, some form of escapism and.

Right.

And then, you know, that's when we get into ideas of triggers and hey, are we being introspective?

Yeah.

And can you even in your mind even predict of like, hey, this is a rabbit hole that if I know I go down here, it's a. I could high chance I'm eventually going to end up in a place I don't want to be.

Yeah. I don't know why, but the child's game Chutes and Ladders is just coming to my head right now that, like, Instagram for me was that place on the board that Was like a shoot. Like, as soon as I hit it, I was down. And it just. Same thing with Twitter. And it is. And I think that that's how it connects is, you know, one of the ways that we describe it. The language we use is the matrix of addiction and seven pillars of freedom for men. But this idea that I have a pattern that I tend to go back to time and time again, and if we can identify that pattern, and that's the whole premise of what we're talking about today, if we can identify that, then I know where to start. Like, I know what to pay attention to. And I think that that's how it connects. And I know we'll get into it even more so in the next couple of questions, how to start making changes. But I really do think that, number one, I would just say start with this. The digital sphere or the Internet or however you want to view it in so many ways, is like the playground where brokenness just can run havoc. And it's accessible all the time from anywhere, any device, any of that. And so I think we have to approach that even before we get to our patterns. We have to approach that with a level of. Honestly, it's kind of this, like, I'm not Superman. I can't get online and not have any guardrails in place and plan to succeed. Like, it's just not gonna go well. So I think we need to understand what we're getting into. But then our patterns. It's funny, I didn't think this until I got into group, but it was the same every single time. It might have been one of two different apps, but it was social media. Like, that was. Something would happen, I would feel bad, I would end up scrolling, and then within a week, I would end up on a pornography site. And so I just think that that's what's so important about identifying it, is if we were to actually map it out, we'd see that the pattern is very similar every time.

Yeah, undoubtedly.

Yeah. And we've talked about it on the podcast that it is always better to do work at the beginning of our pattern, not at the end. And I think maybe especially in churches, we do still focus on fighting at the end of your pattern of when you're at that step right before whatever it is you've promised God, yourself, or others you wouldn't do. Like, boy, that's the moment to be a man or to be a person of integrity, or to have character and just get up and walk away or say no. And I mean, I Think it's good that we try to encourage that. But as we've pointed out, like from the brain science side and this pattern side and all the learning that every time we repeat a pattern, our brain learns from it and cements it and it's easier to repeat the next time. So that by the time we get to that point, like we're fighting the runaway freight train, we're fighting the boulders that are already rolling downhill. And the chances of success are just so minimal. And it's not a way that we can go, oh, well, I'm not responsible. I couldn't help it. But to say, man, that is not the place to start fighting is when the avalanche is already coming downhill. It's like, figure out what's that first rock that got tossed that hit all the other ones and then don't throw that first rock or don't start the engine of that train. And as we think about those things and we move in healthy directions instead. I know for some guys and women it can almost feel like, well, this isn't even fighting because I don't even, I don't feel like I'm having to battle temptation. It's like, well, yeah, that's the point. We're trying to not have you get to that point where you're now in this intense physical, emotional, spiritual battle to say no to something. You're just realizing, I don't ever even want to get to that place. And so I think it is all in going to the starting point of saying, where am I at? What are the places I go to? What are the feelings I have to be aware of? And then starting to construct a different pattern that in a similar way can also be repeated by our brain and get stronger and stronger over time.

Yeah, absolutely. So, Jason, in your work, how do we recognize these patterns? I mean, what tools or what assessments or what wisdom have you kind of gathered on your journey in starting lead me not. And where you're at now, what are some ways that people can start to recognize these digital patterns they have?

Yeah. So, you know, outside of. So, you know, first and foremost is as we, as we've been talking about and even I think Nick, as you were saying. Right. Gotta ask yourself, the question just starts with like, hey, what am I using pretty on, like just practically speaking, where am I spending most of my time? And you have, you know, on iOS we have screen time that like we'll literally just list out for you. And then Android has some built in functionality as well, just to show you. This is where you are. But I think like, I would like to think the, even the average person is not that unaware of what websites they spend the most time on and which apps they're consuming the most of. Right. And you know, we're not there yet with lead me not. But a big part of this vision and mission is leveraging technology in a way to enhance like we want to help people get to the why and the root as part of that overcoming and fighting what's under, what's destructive and unhealthy. And I think one really powerful and cool way to do that is using AI, right, artificial intelligence to like make sense out of all this data. Jay in his book also talks about in the first chapter about like hey, our Internet search history and our browser activity is like, yeah, can be very telling of what we're doing and I'm not going to suggest someone like we'll go analyze the last one week and you know, and look through the, you know, thousands of entries. You could do that and I'm sure you could find some really cool trends. But there again the obvious things are going to be obvious of like I spend a lot of time on Facebook or TikTok or Insta or LinkedIn and yeah, I mean it's funny for me I talk more about this shortly but you know, as I've cut out more and more stuff out of my life, the oldest people. Are you on social media? Like man, the only social media I'm on now is LinkedIn. And what's funny about LinkedIn is like it's just a few minutes a day. It's not satisfying the same desires or urges of what Facebook did and which I think is good. But it's funny because I'll still go to LinkedIn I think just to like, hey, what's new? What's out there?

Right?

Like yeah, you know, the intentions are different but yeah, so I think you, you got to do the work internally and ask yourself and it's not, you're not going to be that. I think the obvious stuff's going to be obvious, the non obvious things. I don't have an answer yet as to like hey, what technologies? I would, I pray that believe me and I will be able to bring the non obvious things to light.

Yeah.

And then also assessment wise, I also, you know, I, I haven't found any particular assessments that I thought were like really dead on. And that's actually something we've even been thinking about of like how do we start building out this type of assessment to just to again show trends and kind of high level things. But if it's not, if, if, if you struggle with figuring that out yourself, I think there's also a lot of power in asking those you do life with and those around you. That's because. Yeah, I mean, if you're. For example, I've. There were times where I'd be on my phone during these lull or dull moments, kind of in group settings and you know, my friends calling me out on, on being on my device, even if I wasn't, even if I was just kind of doom scrolling on something. And yeah, I think depending on how immersed others are in your life, there's a lot of wisdom through that community and fellowship, even outside of accountability of just like asking like, hey, what are y' all seeing in me? Yep.

Yeah. And I think of a couple of things that can make us more aware. Maybe not completely answer the question, but make us more aware of our patterns. One thing I encourage group members is like, turn off any and all notifications. I mean, maybe other than text messages or phone calls, but if you turn off all notifications, one of the things you'll start to pay attention to is what are the things that actually root or begin in my own thinking, in my own brain that I'm the one going, oh, I want to, I'm really curious, I want to see, I want to do. Because if your notifications are on, you're not even sure is this actually coming from me or just because I constantly get messages from, you know, Facebook or Twitter that someone has liked my post or so. And so. And now I'm going to those places because I'm seeing something given to me. So if you turn all those off, you can start to pay attention to, oh, I find myself, you know, for me, one of my things. And Trevor will laugh because he knows this. But like fantasy football, I can check my team like five, six times a day and nothing has happened. Like no teams have played, nothing new has occurred. But it's just, it's part of like, oh, I'm thinking about this and I realize, like, oh, I'm using that as a way to just kind of fill up dead time or to take a break. And I can easily be aware of it because I'm not getting notifications to go do that. And so I think everyone could use that. Or one of the things we've talked about is the practice of Sabbath where you try to set down your phone and not use it for a day. The same kind of thing I think will happen where you Will find yourself throughout the day going, oh, I wish I could check this or see that. And those are the things we can pay attention to because they really reveal our pattern in terms of what have we relied on for. Like you were saying, Jason, for just seeing what's out there, something that meets a need, that makes me feel a certain way. Because if I can take it away, even for a day, I'll start to see that pattern more clearly. So I think those are a couple things we can do to. To start to see what our patterns are.

Yeah. Another tool we have is called the Tech Action Plan. And just like, real quick, we've done episodes on this, but the questions are, what are your 3 to 5, your top 3 to 5 goals for recovery? What devices do you use? Where do you use those devices? What websites and apps have been detrimental to your health? What websites and apps have supported your recovery? What filters? What accountability apps? Who are your accountability partners? And then my favorite question is, what loopholes are you planning to take advantage of in this plan? Right. That's just. It's so good. But that's a really practical tool where if we're willing to be ruthlessly honest with ourselves, we can map out our patterns really clearly. It becomes like 3D. There it is. Wow. Okay.

Well.

Yep. So I bring my phone into the bathroom. Then after I do that, I end up looking at pornography because I was on this site, this site, and this site while I was in the bathroom. And then later, that's what happens. And so I think that's another practical tool to help us evaluate. What I love about the tool is it's not just putting yourself kind of on blast. It's also, what are things that I use for my health and what are things I can start pursuing with technology as well?

Man, you got. Those are great ideas. And I love that, that action plan, too, and surprised I didn't. I missed that. But those are really powerful.

Yeah, well, that kind of leads into the million dollar question, Jason. So if we've started to identify our digital patterns, what does it look like to begin changing them? And maybe for some people, they feel like, can I even change them? These things have become so instinctual. I mean, some people, they've used Facebook or Instagram for years, for over a decade. It's like, I mean, I'm unhealthy. Can I even change? What do you think? What does that look like?

Yeah. So, you know, there's two kind of camps, not camps. There's two major areas that we want to focus on. And you know, when I started my own recovery journey, I think I was really focused on the behavioral change. I think I was really focused on like, man, I just, if I, if I cut out Tinder and Hinge or any way to use dating apps, I think that I'll make significant change. And then as I went through the 12 step process and taking inventory and all these things, it's like, man, like there's a lot here. More than it's never. It wasn't the dating app. There was, there was truly something there. So I, I look at the behavioral change, I look at the hard change. We leave me not believe both are important and necessary. Right. As like if we're talking about truly living a God honoring life in, you know, not even relation to our sexuality, but in relationship in all these areas, spiritually, mentally, emotionally. And it really does start with asking yourself kind of what changes are you are. Are you trying to make? And there when just on the behavioral piece, I, as of today, and even with what we've built out in our app is focused around friction. Right. Add. If we're just talking about behavioral change, I think a lot of that, there's a lot of good that can be done from friction. And I think that goes back to the proverbial. It's the proverbial cutting off of our flesh, cutting off of our hand if it causes you to sin. And I look at it as like, you can limit and reduce or you can eliminate. So for limit and reduce, that's where you get things like people using screen time. Right. For iOS, that's where for us we have the tracking of time and then notifications to the user, but also to their accountability partner. So one more friction is the idea that, hey, it's not just me who's going to be seeing this, but it's Jack and man, Jack is committed to my journey, so on and so forth. Right. So you're adding friction in a way based on, at least right now, based on time. But you can do that more of like, hey, we're going to lock you and block you if you exceed your limit. But then the, the other piece is like the elimination. Right? Okay, how does that work? So, I mean, those are gonna be things like, I'm just gonna delete this thing once and for all. I'm gonna get rid of my Facebook profile, I'm gonna shut down Twitter. I'm gonna, I mean, what the techless guys. I know it's kind of a different positioning when we think about children, but I know there's people out there who use or look to the wise phone as a way of like, talk about friction. I'm just not even gonna have anything on my phone other than Maps or Spotify or whatever they have right now.

And.

Like, I, you know, just practically for me, when I, maybe two, three years ago, I initially thought, hey, I, you know, leave me not just on Android right now. So I said, hey, if I use this browser app to track when I go to Facebook, that'll help make a shift in my behavior. And it was working, but it wasn't as effective. And then I was like, man, what if I just get rid of Facebook? And then I deactivated Facebook, but then I found myself reactivating Facebook and then I said, you know what? I'm just going to give my Facebook password to my best friend who's one of my accountability partners. I'm going to have him change the password and the number associated with the pass with that account so I can never get in. And if I want to get in, he has to give me the password and he has to go change it again. So that's just on the behavioral side, right? It's like, and I think those, those go a long ways. How can I add friction in what makes it harder for me to do something or makes it easier for me to do something else that is hopefully harder for the bad and better for the good. And then you have, of course there's, I think this is kind of more abstract, but the hard change, right, of like, if we're truly getting to the root of our brokenness and as we dig deeper and deeper and further and, and understand the why behind what we're doing, I think you're gonna see there's, there's kind of more long lasting change in and understanding and recognizing what we're not just what we're turning to, but like, hey, I'm choosing this moment to not be on this application because I understand the why is man, I just, I'm seeking the approval of, of women that ultimately will be never be satisfying. Right, right. And like, that has a completely different impact on someone than just saying, yep, man, why don't want to hook up with anyone. So just going to cut out these apps. I mean, what do you guys think?

Well, I think, you know, one of my favorite authors, Daniel Coyle, and his book called the Talent Code, like literally maps out how we get into patterns, like what happens in the brain, the process of myelination. And he says that statistically, scientifically, it's impossible to unlearn a Habit that you've learned the only way to do that is to replace it with a new habit. And we know that here at Pure Desire, it's a part of the recovery process. And so I think to use some of the language you were using earlier, Nick, I think if we understand our pattern, we can go back to the beginning of that pattern, identify what are the things that start this cycle for me, and then choose to do something intentionally different. Like instead of going to Instagram or Twitter or Facebook, YouTube, whatever, maybe it's LinkedIn, who knows? Do something else. Like, okay, when this happens, maybe it's, I walk out of a. I've identified that every time I have a meeting with my boss, I start to feel this way. And this is what starts the pattern. Okay, so you have a plan that after your meeting with your boss next week, you're gonna reach out to a friend instead of go onto your phone. You may still be using your device, your technology, but to reach out and connect with somebody else. And so I think that that's how we start to rewire our brain, is replacing old patterns with new ones. And I think that that's when we're going to start to see real change happen.

Yeah, I think for us, a lot of people come and they're kind of stuck in that binge purge cycle and the binge. So I really appreciate what you said about those differences between limiting and reducing versus eliminating, because I think a lot of us, when we were in the binge purge, all we knew was eliminate and kind of that scorched earth policy, like, all right, never again, and none of this stuff, and I'll never use it. And then, you know, we have a good stretch, whether that's a couple of days or weeks or months or whatever we defined as being a good stretch. And we're like, oh, I'm doing better. And then, like, we just let all the stuff back in and we find ourselves right back into the. Into the binge cycle. So we. We purge by I'll use nothing ever again. And then we binge because we just let it all back. And we haven't really learned a healthy balance of what are the distinctions between things that probably do need to be eliminated and other things I would benefit from limiting and reducing and actually having it be a game plan that I'm walking in versus a forever kind of decision. Because I think when we see it as a forever decision, a lot of us don't keep to those because a month later we feel differently, and so we change it. But that's why I also like so much what we do with the three Circles tool and having people identify that as kind of a living, breathing tool that every couple of months you want to look over it and with an accountability partner or with a spouse, if you're married, to just ask, how is this plan working for me? Are there things that I thought of as guardrails that I'm now realizing really need to go into my inner circle and be, you know, off limits, that those are relapses and vice versa? Are there things I used to think of as relapses that now could be guardrails and I might have a better relationship with them. And if every few months I've kind of got that ability to look at where am I at? Then we're kind of, our plan is growing along with us versus just assuming I'm gonna make some choices today and never do it again and I'll be better. Cause the other thing I try to encourage group members is you don't need to have a forever plan. You need to have a for now plan. That for now, if I'm in, you know, if I'm in month one of recovery, my plan might look very different than if I'm in year five of recovery. And so just having that mindset of what do I need to do in this season for now, is it eliminate or is it limit and reduce? And I think those are just really powerful conversations to have with people that are close enough to us and care about us to help us really make wise decisions.

And I think it's important to make the distinction that just because it's not a forever plan, but a for now plan, that doesn't mean that the stuff for now doesn't actually become a forever thing. Like, I'm convinced Instagram and Twitter will not be something that I can. That it's good for me. It's just not good patterns for me. And I know that. Cause I've tried to kind of dip my toe back in. Like, nah, this is. No, no, it's not. Nope, nope, nope. Like, go back, go back, go back. And so I think that just to make sure that people know that sometimes some of the for now things can be a for forever thing. But that's something that you've processed with people and that you know are gonna set you up for health.

Yeah. And just to add to that is just before this podcast, someone was asking me, like, man, do you think you'll ever go back to dating apps? And that. That's exactly that had Turned in, that had turned from a. For now. Right. A season of like, of let me not date and especially not use technology to enhance that process to now, like, I don't, I, I don't see a world where that would ever make sense again. But you know, it's. It's possible, but it's, it's not my motivation or desire, praise the Lord, that.

People can still date and meet and connect offline and get married and start families.

Right?

Yes. For my sake.

Yeah, absolutely. Right. So, okay, how do we know, and this is a good kind of like looking back, mile marker type of question. How do we know we've taken steps into digital wellness and how does life look different when we've established some of those healthy digital patterns?

Yeah, you know, I think, man, hopefully this is not too simple of an initial question or kind of thing to ask yourself, but. Well, are we doing more of what's life giving and good and are we doing less of what takes life away? Right. Of what's hurting us or damaging us and those around us? And I think that when we, when we are moving towards a state of being more digitally well. Right. Or, or interacting intentionally and with. With technology in a healthier sense, then I do think that we'll start to see a shift in a lot of our, like those six pillars, right. Those areas where I think we'll. We'll start to see certain emotion shift.

Right.

Of if, you know, even things like lethargy to like hook have actually more time and energy and, and mind space to. To be productive or to interact with others. We will start seeing, I think even ourselves doing less of. Of course, the less of the things that we know are impacting us and, and hurting us. Right. Like, okay, I'm spending less time on YouTube before I go to bed and that's actually allowing me to sleep better. And I hear and I feel more revived and energized in, in the morning. So I, Yeah, I think so. A lot of it has to again, be kind of what are we seeing in ourselves and what are those. What are those patterns and habits that we have created through technology that we have now replaced or that we've started to adjust and I think even celebrating those small things of, hey, I don't spend an hour anymore on Facebook or sorry, let's say someone said I don't spend five hours a day on Facebook anymore. I spend four hours and I don't spend four hours now. I just spend an hour like, man, I as maybe and more inclined as I've been In the past to chuckle at that. I think there's. I think you could. There's victory there, and there's things to celebrate of, like, hey, I'm, Like, I'm. I'm reducing the thing. Things that are taking life away from me as I've identified that. And, you know, how does. How do we see a different life when we see these healthier digital patterns? I think it goes back to, well, how was technology hurting you to begin with? Right. Of, like, was it affecting your relationship with your spouse? Was it affecting how you were interacting with work? Right. With your employer, with productivity, with. How was it. How was it shifting the bitterness and resentment you felt towards those around you because you were constantly engaged in your Facebook feed or debates. Right. With others over posts? I mean, there's. I just think there's a lot of nuance there, but the core is the same of, like, what are. What are we seeing that is shifting and changing? And I think it does go back to. I don't. I don't think there's an objective definition necessarily for I am digitally. Well, I think you have to, again, ask yourself. And don't ask yourself that question in a vacuum. Right. It's like, all. I think all three of us understand the beauty of accountability and community and constantly ensuring that those around you can be speaking life and truth into that, too.

Totally.

Yeah. I always think back to a story I remember from my childhood of, you know, maybe my teenage years that my mom would always go through these periods where she would not drink coffee. And I remember asking her about that once. Like, you know, I've noticed sometimes you drink coffee, and then other times it's like you go a week or two and you don't. And she said, I'm just trying to make sure that I'm not, like, addicted to it, that I don't require it to be healthy and awake, but that I can enjoy it. And as I look back at that, I think how remarkable it is because I'm a long, long ways from that on on coffee. But. But in that regard, maybe someday, mom, maybe I'll work on my coffee addiction. But I do think there's something to be said, particularly, like, for social media and technology is if we find that we can lay it down for a few days, a week, or even a month and really not have this gapping, gaping hole in our life. Like, oh, my goodness, I need that. That's a really positive sign of health. And I would even encourage that if you're looking at, okay, I need to get Off Twitter for a week, because maybe you've figured out a way that you limit and reduce? And you're like, is this something that I have a healthy relationship with now? And you go off Twitter for a week? Are you every day just thinking about, I gotta go on. I gotta check. It's like, okay, that's probably an indication there's still some significant hooks there versus not really missing it. You know, these guys know a little bit. And I don't know if I've ever said it on this podcast, but I used to have. I don't know if it'd be a. I had a compulsion that I really liked to play Clash of Clans on my phone. And I would. In spare time, I'd be playing this game, and I kind of had that moment of like, has this game taken a little bit too much of my life and control? And so can I lay it down and will I miss it or not? And I think that was encouraging to me, is that after, you know, the first day, I kept thinking about, oh, I should go check. I'm like, no, no, I'm taking a break. And then after that first day, it was like, I didn't really think about it. It wasn't connected to my life. It wasn't something I needed. And I've been encouraged by that in a lot of areas. Just to see, like, do I need this to survive? And to be clear, I'm saying this specifically about things that we wouldn't identify in and of themselves of being harmful. Because that is the kind of language, like, of someone who's looked at porn a lot or been a drug addict or alcoholic. They're like, hey, I've gone two weeks without alcohol or two weeks without porn. I'm good. And then we think we're safe. So I'm not talking those categories because in those categories, our goal is that never again will I go back to them. We're more looking at what are the possible trigger points or entry points. And if it's something that we can't lay down without totally missing it and wanting to go back, then I think we're realizing there's still some unhealth there. So just some ideas and practices to say, hey, go without it for a while. And if you realize, like, wow, my life is just as full. I have activities that I do, things that I occupy my time with. I'm not missing anything, then really take that encouragement to say, man, I've arrived at a much healthier place. Totally with how I'm using this technology.

I Remember when I first got off of social media, I felt kind of like I was missing out. Not kind of. I felt like I was missing out. It's like, I don't know what's going on in all of my friends lives and whatever. And whatever. It's like, you know, you have 1500 friends or whatever on Facebook. It's like, trev, you don't have that many friends, man. But like, what I found is I would ask updates like, you know, I'd see my friend Justin or I'd see my friend Chris or Bob or whatever, and I'd be like, hey, how's life going? And for me, I found that I wasn't, like, finding all that information on their feeds. I was asking them face to face, like, what's going on? What's up? Talk to me, you know, and knowing that, and I didn't set out for that to take place, I just found myself, like, I'm just as curious as I was before about what's going on in their life. But now I have to, like, do that intentional step of texting or calling or going out to coffee or meeting or whatever. I think for me, that was an indicator. It's like, okay, like, I actually don't need that in my life. Like, I still have the friends I want to have. And if I, heaven forbid, I need to know what happened on Facebook, I can be like, Amy, my wife. Any updates on this person's life? She'll be like, no, great, okay, cool. And I can just keep going on with my day. So I think things like that. I love what you're saying about identifying small victories or small wins because it's not gonna be right in your face. You are digitally well. I think that you need to just evaluate consistently.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And again, just. I didn't plan this. Right before this podcast, another buddy was. One friend was. Walked in the bathroom. He was playing Clash of Clans on the toilet here in the office.

So.

And then another friend asked me about, man, you should be. He just asked me, he's like, dude, you need to go on TikTok. And I was like, I don't see any world where TikTok is ever going to help me. I think I thank God I've come to a place where hearing that I scoff at Versus, I think maybe even a few years ago, similar idea of, I'm missing out. I need to be a part of this for sure.

Yeah, yeah. Really good stuff. And I'm sure now I'm going to get razzed on for claiming I liked Clash of Clans, dude, everybody did. It's.

Gosh, it was a good game.

I'm talking like a year ago, so not like a long time back when it was really popular. So, Jason, we've talked a lot about it and you've mentioned what you're doing with Lead Me not, but share a little bit more about your organization. How do you help in this whole area of digital health? What does Lead Me not do? And maybe in particular for our listeners because so many of them are accustomed to accountability software like Covenant Eyes, Accountable 2. You, you know, all those programs, how does LeadMeNot compare to those? And is this like a both and like where someone might use both or is it something that they could use in place of? How do you view that?

Yeah, so Lead Me Not. We want to help the world understand the why behind their digital behavior and by understanding that why eliminate what is unhealthy or destructive through technology. And we use, we use radical transparency, accountability and, and introspection to, to guide that process. So, you know, right now if you go on Google Play and you search Lead Me Not I, we're positioning ourselves specifically for the. There's two use cases, right? We have the unwanted sexual behavior and then we have unhealthy digital usage. If you go through, you download the app, you go through onboarding, you're going to be asked, are you one of the two? Are you both? And right now we're positioning more for the first, right? For the unwanted sexual behavior. And the way that we're helping guys and girls attract this is by really trying to take a super personalized approach and holistic approach to digital wellness, but focused on the areas that are problematic or that you want to find freedom from. So for, for the first use case or how we initially interact with, you do need to have an accountability that partner that you can add to the platform. You, you said like, hey, what is the why behind my journey, right? What am I doing this? And then we ask, hey, what are your trigger points, right? What are areas that you've already identified as being triggering, Right? You select certain websites, certain apps, or certain, even certain emotions. And you know, similar to some of these accountability solutions we run in the background right now, we're monitoring your behavior, we're alerting the accountability partner, but we're also every evening prompting the user to reflect and introspect and how was your day? Did you act out in some regard? And if you did, what triggered you, right? And what led you down that path? And so at the end of the day, we are still pointing back to relationship, right? We're pointing back to community. But we're also trying to use technology to aid in our fight on the behavioral side, right? Which is you could say the monitoring, the alerting and then we also have the, the hard change and what does that look like to replace? So we have a lot of users right now who are using Lead Me not as their sole wellness platform just for Android, but then you also have guys and girls who are using us in addition to solutions like Covenant Eyes are accountable to you because we can't run on other devices yet. And then you also have people. I also, I know of users who use Fortify. Right, that's another one in addition to us because Fortify is asking them more questions beyond what we're asking or they have specific content that you can go through. And again, my, my vision, our vision is to have Lead Me not become this kind of one stop shop and platform where you're not just doing all these friction things of making it hard to do stuff, but you're actually being prompted and taking steps towards replacing that with life giving behavior. And yeah, are we asking the right questions? What kind of content? Pushing out the right content to our users. And then also as I've talked about before, being more AI driven, right? Where it's like, hey, now we're starting when we talk about helping users understand their why, how can we aid technology in a, how can we use technology in a redemptive way? And I think data is a big way you can do that to say man, here, look at all these patterns and trends we've identified that probably open up a whole new way of thinking of how you think about your digital behavior.

Yeah, IBM guy, remember IBM guy.

Data, not an engineer.

They're all the same to me. Like, no offense to engineers out there. They're all the same to me. Jason, where can people. Because obviously they're gonna love this content. They love what you got to say and Leave Me not is such a great platform for this. Where can people find more information on you on Lead Me Not. Where can they get all that?

Yeah, so first is our app, right? So the Android folks out there download, install, create an account and if it's not through the app, then our website, right. Leadmenot.org I have an Instagram that we've done some really cool IG lives with folks that have, I think even a few that have maybe one or two that have been a part of or interacted with the Pure desire ministries. But between the app, website and Instagram, kind of. This is where you're going to get kind of the major updates and hopefully even using. Using Lead Me not as well.

Yeah, that's awesome. I'm just waiting for the iOS, man. That's all I'm gonna say. I'm waiting for the iOS. Get on there, man. Let's do it. Jason, it's been great, man, to get to know you a little bit more, hear your heart, and I think this is a good conversation. Though some of this stuff may not feel directly tied to recovery from sexual addiction or healing from betrayal trauma, our digital patterns do impact it. Absolutely. That's such a significant way. So thanks for your time. Thanks for the work that you do. Thanks for being with us. Appreciate it.

Yeah. Thank you so much.

See ya. And wherever you're at on your journey, Pure Desire is here to help create a roadmap for your healing. If you or someone you know is impacted by sexual brokenness or betrayal trauma, go to PureDesire.org and begin the healing journey today. If this podcast is helpful on your journey, please share it with others. Make sure to subscribe to the podcast. Drop us a review. It helps others find the show. Each week we are putting out new content to help you on the road to healing and freedom. And lastly, never stop being helpful. Sa.