284 - Health For The Holidays: Managing Emotions

Welcome to the Pure Desire podcast, helping you take back your life from unwanted sexual behavior and betrayal trauma. Happy cold winter day to you, listener. Unless you live somewhere tropical. I am your host, Trevor Windsor, and you're listening to episode 284 of the Pure Desire podcast. Here joining me as always is my co host, Nick Stumbo.

Harry, your hands are freezing.

I don't know. I don't know, truly.

Would it help you if you knew? That's what Lloyd said to Harry.

Oh, yeah. Okay, okay, okay, okay.

Yes. Lloyd and Harry from Dumb and Dumber traveling in the Rocky Mountains.

That's right.

Gosh. They get into a fight and he says, harry, your hands are freezing.

Gosh.

Which I'll tie in in a second. Why he said that.

There are. I don't know if you know this. Did I tell you that when you did the intro from Lord of the Rings that I got pub like by a friend in a group thread got shamed for not knowing you said that?

Yeah.

They're like, I feel like I'm gonna get another one because of this one. That didn't catch it right away, but that's okay. We talked about a lot on the episode today. Preparing for negative emotions that come up. I'll just prepare for that.

I'm giving you an opportunity.

We had Robert Vandermeer. Bob Vandermeer, he's one of our clinicians on Today for week two of our Health for the Holidays series. And we talked about managing our emotions.

Yes. A very appropriate conversation as we're in the holiday season and in the movie Dumb and Dumber, they go to the Rockies and it's found discovered that Lloyd had two pair of gloves. And Harry's very, very angry. Like you had two pair of gloves because he's been freezing. And he says, yeah, it's the Rockies. And so there was a self awareness there that Lloyd had. He was prepared. And because he was prepared, he didn't experience something negative that Harry did, who was not aware and was unprepared. And in a. That's what we're talking about with emotions. Like you can't in a sense prevent going to the Rockies in this illustration. You can't prevent emotions from coming. But there can be some steps we take to be prepared to handle them well or to kind of let them hit us and handle them poorly, which we've all seen examples of, whether it's us or someone else reacting in anger, stuffing emotions and disappearing, ending up doing something where they're relapsing into their addiction, whether it's sexual or drugs and alcohol or eating addiction. Like, there's just all kinds of negative things that can happen if we're not prepared. And so I think today's episode is a way for us to process what are things we do to be prepared. Because the other theme that came out really well in the episode is we're all humans and we're going to experience emotions good and negative. And if we're prepared and know that's coming, then I think we can handle them well and hopefully still have good relationships when it's all said and done.

Totally.

Listeners are gonna realize how excellent of an intro that you just gave was once they hear the episode. I'm excited for that. They're gonna be like, ah, okay. Yep, yep, yep, yep. Okay. Before we get into our time with Bob Nick, we are running a campaign that's called Access Granted. And we really are trying to find better ways. And it's each year, specifically this year, we are pushing to give more people access to healing and freedom. And we're raising $250,000. Why don't we tell people what we're raising it for?

Yeah. Have you ever been on a website where things just aren't working? Like you're trying to check out or you're trying to use their product and just if it's clunky, if it's malfunctioning, you're like, even if you really know the product is good, you may end up not going there or visiting. I remember in college, my seminary degree, a lot of it was online, and the initial program we had to use, I just hated it. It was so hard to navigate. I was like, I love the program and the professors. I don't know if I can do this because it's so obnoxious. And, you know, thankfully, where we're at with our website is not that bad. But we know that more and more people are coming to us as a resource for their healing. And that can include online groups, streaming video series that we use, different digital tools. And if those don't work well, there's a possibility people will miss out on healing simply because the functionality of the vessel that's being offered to them didn't work right or didn't scale with the needs. And so that's what we're really preparing for, is a future. As we're seeing every year, the growth, in many ways is exponential. People coming to our website, people joining online groups, people listening to this podcast. And we need a web vehicle that can handle that and expand into the things that are coming, like more languages and even more resources. And that's why we're overhauling our website. We're not just redesigning it to make it look prettier, we're actually rebuilding the engine that runs it. And that's a pretty daunting process that I think a lot of ministries our size just don't take on because it's too expensive to do. But we're following a game plan that we think is doable for us, and that's where the $250,000 will go to, is that overhaul. And we're already into phase one from last year's fundraising. But phase two is the biggie, and it's the expensive one, and that's what we're raising funds for, is because we believe this will make that front door to healing at Pure Desire larger than it's ever been and more sustainable than it's ever been as we continue to help more people.

Yeah. So if you would like to be part of the Access Granted campaign, go to PureDesire.org give a few more things before we get to our time with Bob. Subscribe to the podcast, follow us on social media and this full episode will be up on YouTube. And with that, here is week two of our health for the Holiday series with Robert Vandermeer on Managing Emotions. Bob Vandermeer, long time no podcast friend. Welcome back.

Hey, thanks, guys. Thanks for having me.

We, if I'm being honest, are used to having you come into office and do these podcasts. And so there's a little like, you know, I don't know, maybe it's just in connection, what we're going to talk about, but there's some motion that's coming up because of that. So anyways, glad that you could at least join us via Zoom. You are one of our clinicians and a busy one, so we appreciate you making time for it. And we're in week two of our Health for the Holidays series, and today we're talking about managing our emotions. And this is obviously a big part of recovery and healing and is absolutely a big part of the holiday season. So with that, let's just jump in. Bob, we are often told that the holidays are the most wonderful time of the year.

Right.

And now everyone has that song stuck in their head for the rest of the week, and it's this joyful season, but there can be tons of emotions that we experience. So why is it important during the holiday season to be aware of all these emotions going on?

Yeah, no, that song is Stuck. It was actually stuck in my head before we. Before you just said it. When I was getting done with my last session, I was like, oh, yeah, we're going to talk about the holidays. And then I started singing that and I started making up alternate lyrics. Okay. Yeah. About why it's not the most wonderful time of the year. And then, and then I was like, no, I can't. I know I can't sing some of those things. You don't want me to sing. There we go. Yeah. So why is it important to dial in and even just be aware of what our emotions are? I think because we have. We got the intersection, like in the holidays. Like, there's this. This confluence of so much stuff happening. Right. Like, we've got a break in schedule. And we're also, for a lot of people, transitioning to, like, winter time where our, like, our physical activity habits are different, our eating habits are different. Like, we maybe have money, extra money that we're having to spend, or there's the expectation that we're going to spend extra money.

Yeah, right.

There's like, there's just the confluence of all this stuff. There's travel, there's family, there's time off. Like, we're also still just getting over all of the fall colds that our kids get at the beginning of school.

True.

So, I mean, there's just like this. This confluence of so much stuff happening that it's easy to get overwhelmed, but also just ignore our emotions. And so there's so many there, so much emotion there that it seems pretty pertinent that we would try to figure out what's going on.

Emotional awareness is important at any time of the year, but I think particularly in the holiday season and with Christmas, it matter because of that feeling that we're supposed to be happy. You know, it's supposed to be the most wonderful time of year. And whether it is or not, I think what we might do to ourselves is almost. We've talked about spiritual bypass on the podcast, and this is in some ways, maybe not spiritual bypass, but just human or emotional bypass of, like, oh, I'm not supposed to feel that way because it's Christmas or because it's this or because we're with family. I'm supposed to be joyful and. And if I'm not, we might be tempted to just try to ignore it and move on and get through it. And that often leads people to pretty unhealthy places. And so I think just recognizing the pressure that we maybe put on ourselves or that other People put on us like, you're supposed to be happy. It's Christmas. And it's like, if I'm not and I just ignore it, that's only gonna lead me to unhealthy places.

Yeah. And I think being around the holidays, we spend a lot of time around our family. And being around our family brings up a lot of stuff, like, brings up all our family of origin, the brokenness, maybe some of the. I know for me personally, about five years ago, maybe a little less, we had a really big family thing happen. And to me, every time the holidays come around, it's just a reminder of that. Now that moment, that big experience we had didn't happen around the holidays, but when it gets, I guess, like rubbed up against, it's like an open wound that when you, like, walk by someone and someone rubs up against it, it like hurts, it stings. It's just a reminder of like, oh, yeah, things aren't the way they used to be. And that isn't always necessarily bad, but it just can bring up a lot of stuff, a lot of the negative emotion or what we perceive to be negative emotion that we're just actually numbing out on. And for, you know, for whatever reason, the holidays create the situation where they just bubble to the surface and we can't avoid them anymore.

Yeah, Yeah. I think that the question, like, why is it so important? I think part of it for me too is because I want to be ultimately present with my family.

Right.

I want to be engaged. I want to be like, like not just physically present, but emotionally present. Yeah. And in what, in what is also a very memory building time of the year. Right. Like, so it's, it's, it's. I've got all my own memories from it, but for my kids and my family, like, we're creating our own new memories of this. And so it's important for me to kind of be aware of my emotions so that I can be present with them.

Yep, absolutely.

So let's drill down a little deeper in that. I mean, awareness of emotions and processing them is important for everyone and at the holidays especially. So. But particularly, why are emotions and our management of them so important for those of us that are on recovery, A recovery or a healing journey?

Yeah, I mean, I think that's what we're, that's what we're doing in our groups. That's what we're doing in counseling.

Right. That guy.

I think that, like, the emotional awareness is what we spend so much of our time doing. That's what we do in the faster scale. Right. Like that's what we do in our check ins. I mean that's, that, that that's so much of what all this is about. But I think that one of the challenges that comes up in the holidays and why this is important is that there's the break in schedule. So chances are our seven pillars are a betrayal. And beyond group might not be meeting because we got Thanksgiving and then we have Christmas and then we have New Year's. Right. Like we might be traveling so we might not be meeting as often. We might be less available for check ins. And so like there's also this break in our recovery patterns and you know, which. That in and of itself creates a vulnerability.

Yeah, I think it's, it's important to know because, and we talked about this a little bit in the first episode last week of this series, that we have these expectations of what the season is going to be like. And then when we experience disappointment, it's very easy for us to find ways to medicate that pain that we feel and that disappointment. And that's what drove us to the situation we're in in recovery. You know, like, it's the ouch that hurts. I don't know how to deal with it. Oh, porn, masturbation, sexual brokenness. This is a way to numb out from it and to medicate that pain. And so it just in a lot of ways, the holiday season can set us up to meet disappointment often. And if we don't learn how to identify our emotions and manage it well, then we could end up going to old behaviors that we don't want to do anymore or even new unwanted behaviors in order to medicate that pain.

Yeah. What I jotted down is that unprocessed emotions lead to unwanted behaviors. You could write that down. Unprocessed emotions lead to unwanted behaviors. So if we're being triggered by anger in a family setting and we're not processing what, what's going on, why am I feeling this, what's getting triggered here? And we just stay in that moment, we're probably going to end up in having some kind of lashing out saying something we regret getting angry. So it definitely applies to our sexual behaviors as well because many have that in their story of boy. I disengaged, I numbed out, I ended up places I didn't mean to go. I relapsed. But I think it can happen in overeating. It can happen in emotional outbursts, it can happen in drinking too much. The regrets that we have in life, I think usually we could tie back to. They start out with emotions we didn't process well. And because we didn't process them, they led us into ways to try to artificially deal with how it was making us feel. That in the end just made it all worse. And the emotion still was kind of sitting there waiting to be dealt with. So the more we can be aware of not only what we're feeling, but then as we've talked about a lot when we've done podcasts and emotions, is that the emotion is just an indicator. It's just letting us know something's going on and we've got to have the space or ability to process why, what's, what's driving this, where is this coming from? And we might realize what I'm feeling, oh, it's not that big of a deal. And I process it and I let it go. Or it might be a moment we realize, wow, this is actually tapped into something pretty deep and I need to think through what's going on. I need to get with my spouse or group member and kind of share what I'm feeling. Either could be true, but if we just try to ignore those emotions, it's going to lead to places we'll later regret.

Yep.

Yeah. I mean, the last thing we want to do during the most wonderful time of the year is relapse. Right, Right. Like, like we don't like to relapse during that time, whether it's sexually or with any of the other things that you mentioned, Nick. Like we're going to end up feeling shame about that stuff. And if it is a sexual relapse and now we have to disclose that to our spouse, you know, on Christmas Eve, well, you know, that's going to be a wonderful Christmas morning in our pajamas. Right. Like we're gonna, like, we don't want to do that. We don't want to self sabotage to these times. That really can be like a wonderful time for reflection and connection and all of this. And I have some friends that, that he's in recovery and his wife told him when you, when you choose to not participate in self care, you're choosing to neglect our family. Right. And I think that's kind of a similar thing here that if, that if we are choosing to not pay attention to our emotions, we are choosing in essence to be less available, to be less emotionally present and to put ourselves into a vulnerable spot for relapse.

Yep.

And, and then there's also the thing where if we get into these cycles during the Holidays. And we do end up in some unhealthy patterns. Whether it's relapse or not, A lot of people think, well, I don't want to bring it up right now because we're, you know, it's the holidays. And so they end up maintaining a secret. Yeah. Like throughout the holidays. And then when they do finally disclose, it's like, well, all right, now we just tainted the entire. So there's just like, there's no good way around that other than work hard to stay healthy. Yeah.

I mean, that takes us really into the next question. And the reality is that emotional awareness does not come easy. It doesn't even come natural for any of us. So what does it look like to become more aware of our emotions or be able to identify them?

I think the three circles exercise, right. We call it the relapse prevention tool. I like to call it the intentionally healthy living tool. Really, that's what we're trying to do with it. But. But holidays and family time almost always fits into the middle circle of that tool. In other words, areas that create vulnerability for us. And. And so just being able to acknowledge, okay, yeah, this, this is what it is. Like, I know this is putting me in an emotionally vulnerable spot, not pretending like, well, this year it's going to be different. You know, this year is not going to be challenging like it was before. But no, okay, this is like, this is what it is. And when we do that, then we can build some structure around it. Like, okay, do I need to have more check in phone calls? Right. Do I need to have more honest conversations with my wife? Like, do I need to set an alarm in the middle of Christmas dinner on my phone that goes off and I go in the other room and I do some deep breathing and I pull my wife aside and I say, yeah, you know what? I'm feeling really insecure about this and this and this. But I think what I really just need is a hug. Right. Like, we're just, we acknowledge, no, this is going to be challenging. And so let's just approach it in that way. Not as if it's a failure to admit that.

Yeah. What came to mind for me is I think with emotions, a lot of us, and maybe it's stereotyping a little bit, but I think especially for men, we need to learn to get more specific with what we're feeling, go deeper with those thoughts. A lot of us just categorize, you know, the glad, sad, mad, or as I've heard someone on our team say, happy, sappy, Crappy. That I'm either angry and mad, I'm feeling happy, or I'm sad about something. But really, if we go deeper to say, oh, it's not just that I'm feeling anger, I'm feeling disrespected. Where did that come from? Or I'm feeling embarrassed, I'm feeling foolish, I'm feeling like a failure. Because the more specific we can get, the easier it is then to take that connection to, well, where did this come from? And it may be the way someone told a joke at the family dinner that really made us feel embarrassed. And we don't appreciate that. If all we think is, I'm mad at them, I'm angry at them, we may not get to that connection. Point of, what about my story? Is this a trigger for embarrassment? And we might process it and realize, boy, that was more of a me issue because it connects to my past. And I really do trust this person, and I know their heart. I know they were not intentionally doing that. I might be able to process it and let it go. Or maybe I realized, like, wow, this is an issue I have in a family dynamic that I've continually felt embarrassed by them or put down by them, and I've never had the courage to address it. And maybe in an appropriate way, you could lovingly address something that you realize is part of a wound that you've carried. So I think when we can put language to it, even happiness, it's not just that I'm happy. I feel thankful, I feel appreciated, I feel seen. That can even make us more aware of what are the good emotions I'm feeling versus just, oh, I love Christmas. It makes me feel so good. Like, well, why? What is it contributing? And the more specific we are, I think the more actionable it becomes for us.

Yeah, I think the faster scale is obviously a tool that we would highly recommend in this arena, knowing that, you know, it's. It is a relapse tool to understand what gets us there. But it has a lot to do with emotion and emotional awareness. You guys know, this is a. That's just, you know, the same old record for me. But journaling is just something that facilitates internal exploration. Like, exploration for me. I'm able to put words down and really dig into, like, how am I feeling in this moment? And as I write, this is how I'm feeling. How does that make me feel? And what is it connected to? But I even. I think it was yesterday. I recently had two people in my life who almost verbatim said the exact Same thing with, you know, some of the recovery my wife's going through right now. At the time that you're listening to this, you know, people wanting to support. And two people said the exact same thing, but one really irritated me and annoyed the crap out of me and one felt super loving and great. And I just turned to Amy and I was like, why do I feel this way? Why is it that when this person does this, it makes me upset? And when this person does the exact same thing, I'm totally fine with it and love them for it. And that's that giving. That's creating that space to give language to it, but then also inviting other people into that process where at the time she was just like, I don't know, let's keep talking about it. So we'll circle back and she'll have thoughts. And inviting other people into that process can also help me identify my emotions and start to figure out what's going on.

Yeah. Yeah, that's great. I'm wondering, as I'm sure are the viewers, why you gestured towards me, Trevor, when you said someone made you feel happy and then you gestured towards Nick when. But I mean, that's cool.

Okay, well, I mean, that's good, I guess.

Sounds like a you issue, Bob.

Circle back to that.

Yeah.

If you're not watching this on YouTube, then you'll have no idea what he's talking about. So thanks for calling that out, Bob. Appreciate it.

Love you. Well, in light of that trigger that Bob's feeling, let's go deeper with some of the examples or situations that we might specifically share. What are unhealthy ways that we, or maybe people in general, often express emotions while around family or during the holidays. How do these emotions tend to come out?

Yeah, I can picture my own manic expression on my face, like in the, in the depths of the holidays. Yeah, it comes like I. The. The moment that I picture this the most is going to a U cut Christmas tree farm. So, you know, here in the Pacific Northwest, a lot of people will go to a place to cut down their own Christmas tree. And like, we want to make it a family event. There's usually hot cocoa and, you know, on a fire and whatever. But also there's this other thing in the Pacific Northwest in the wintertime called rain. And so usually rainy at the Christmas tree lot, and it's muddy and it's wet and my kids are whining. And I always get to this point. Well, not always, historically, I get to this point where like a Clark Griswold quote is running through my mind where he says, this is going to be the hap, hap, happiest Christmas since Bing Crosby tap dance with Danny Bleepin K. Right. And he's got this like raised look on his face like, this is going to be a happy Christmas. That's right. Right. And so I think, I think for me there's like, there's so much expectation.

Yeah.

That it's going to be good. Right. There's so much expectation that I'm, I'm going to be a good dad this Christmas. Right. That we're going to connect perfectly as a family. And I have the expectations mixed with the pain from my past of family and you know, like my broken family and Christmas is being at different places. Like I have all that mixed in and if I'm not processing it, then it's going to erupt on my kids, you know, in a moment where it's like, you know, I'm getting upset about them trying to find the perfect Christmas tree.

Yeah, right.

As opposed to me that day earlier understanding, oh, Bob, you're feeling stressed out, like, make sure that you're just like taking some deep breaths and checking in and giving your kids the space for this to be like an adventure instead of you being so task oriented that you're not there to participate in this.

Yeah. And I think the two things that come up as you're saying that, Bob, are anger and control. Control meaning when I get uncomfortable or I'm feeling emotions, I don't want to. A great way to manage that is to manage other people or to manage my context. And a lot of the times that comes out with being very, very critical and being very, very angry and, and when people look at you and say, why are you so angry right now? You know, like, that's probably a good indicator that there are some other emotional things going on under the surface. And that's maybe that eruption that Bob was talking about, but I think another one that I see often and try to not do is just passive aggressive like that. Oh man, the holidays. I just feel like that's the super bowl for passive aggressive people every year. You know, it's just, it's an ability to be around people, to say what you actually feel or are thinking in a way that sounds nice or lovely or whatever. But I think that those are really just masks. I know for anger it can be a secondary emotion. I know passive aggressive is usually an indicator of something much deeper going on. And so I think that at least in my experience, those Are the things that tend to come out.

Yeah. For me, I realized in my story that SA not only stood for sexual addiction, it also stood for my primary method of dealing with these emotions. And that's to stuff and avoid. And especially at Christmas, that's my temptation or in some ways, my pattern. You know, I don't want to make waves. I don't want to make a big deal of it right now. If it's with my spouse, I don't want to make her feel bad. It's Christmas, we're all supposed to be happy. Or if we're on a trip, it can feel like, well, I'll deal with it later. And certainly there are moments like it's not the right moment to bring it up. If you're in the middle of trying to take a family picture, it's not the time to be like, we need to talk about this. But I think I can take that attitude just like the whole Christmas season and like, I'm just. I don't want to deal with it. I'll be fine. You know, overall, things are good. But what I look back on is to see how unhealthy that was for me because it did lead me. I've had in my story parts where Christmas and relapse did go together. And I think it's because of that pattern of stuff and avoid that I didn't deal with things in a healthy way. And I wouldn't even realize that was driving me into more isolation, more ways of numbing out, whether, you know, on my phone or TV or just kind of avoiding relationships because I hadn't dealt with a lot of little things. And I think of our family story like, none of these were major, big. Like, we have an overall relatively healthy family. But that doesn't mean it's easy. There were still lots and lots of little things I needed to deal with and often wouldn't. So I think that's for me, when I realize I'm just avoiding. I know I'm feeling something, but I'm just stuffing it. That for me, has become that red flag. Oh, this is a danger zone and I need to go through what's happening. And then, like I said, maybe sometimes it is just self awareness that I can let it go, but other times, like, you know what? I've really got to approach a family member. There's something I need to say because this is not healthy and it's not good for me. So if you don't process it, though, you never get to that point.

Yeah, Trevor, you said the word masks, like, with anger, irritability, control. I think if we're talking about people going and spending Christmas or holidays with their family of origin versus, like, with, you know, their. Their spouse and kids. I think there's this other part that comes out in us with family of origin, too, where I know, like, for us, Rebecca, the first time. First Christmas she spent with my family, she was like, wow, you were, like, just really sarcastic. And, like, May is like, you guys are just making jokes the entire time. Right. And I realized, like, from her pointing this out that, yeah, when I go home with my family of origin, like, I kind of shift into some of the roles that I played that I perceive myself playing or. Right. That are. Or that were maybe spoken to me. And so when I'm with my family of origin, if I'm not really intentional about my emotions and how I'm feeling, I will easily shift into wearing these other masks of being, like, the funny one.

Yeah, right.

Or being the antagonistic one or the spiritual one or, you know, whatever it is is. And, you know, fortunately, my wife, you know, she'll be like, dude, quit. Quit doing that. Right? Oh, yeah.

Okay.

Sorry. But, you know, I know that if she hadn't pointed that out that it probably would have taken a lot longer for me to realize, oh, oh, no. Like, I'm not dealing with my. My stress, my shame, my emotions, how I feel like I do or don't fit in with my family. Instead, I'm just, like, acting out all of these other roles to try and feel safe.

Yeah. I think that is one that people need to be aware of, you know, in the. In the older I get, the more I'm convinced. Sarcasm is a spiritual gift, but it's also one that can be really damaging. Like, it is one where you actually can be passive aggressive and can be angry and can be acting out or really lashing out at other people through it. And it. Yeah, I mean, I know for me, sarcasm, like, truly growing up, it was part of the DNA of my family. Like, it was almost like a love language where if I love you, I'll show you affectionately through sarcasm beating you up. And the older I get, the more I realize that it actually is just. It's an outward manifestation of discomfort I feel inside, and so I have to be aware of that. I think a lot of us need to make sure that we're paying attention to how often we're being sarcastic, too. In the holidays, definitely.

Yeah.

Thanks for really walking us through sarcasm, Trevor.

You're welcome. My dissertation's coming out in a month. Okay, so let's look at how we do this. What does it look like to manage our emotions in a healthy way? We've already talked about some ways that it doesn't work out in unhealthy ways. What does it look like to do it healthy?

Yeah, I think we've been kind of throwing some bits and pieces in there as we've been going through this, but I think it looks like being present. So managing our emotions and being present just means, like, what are you feeling? Are you, like, physically and emotionally in the room? So if you're starting to feel triggered, you're starting to feel, like, insecure, or you're starting to feel, like, irritated, like, oh, wait a second. Okay, that's how I'm feeling. So to give yourself the practice and the space to just, like, feel what you're feeling and. But also to have some. Some planned moments where you can, like, interject or I'm sorry, intersect with other people to talk about it, because otherwise we just get swept in. We get swept into the holidays. Like, and so, like, I feel like for us, you know, that's. For us, that starts in at the end of September because that's when Rebecca's birthday is. So I. So just for us, we've got my wife's birthday, and then a week later, I have both of my kids birthdays. And then whether or not you do Halloween, we got Halloween, and then we got Thanksgiving and Christmas and New Year's, and it's like we get sucked into the holidays and then we get spit out in February. Right. Just in time for. Just in time to be romantic with your spouse.

Sure, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

And, and, and so if we're like, if we're pausing to say, how am I feeling right now? And have I set up structure to work through that? We're just going to get sucked in and spit out. Yeah, yeah.

I think about how often emotions are a byproduct of everything else going on in my life. And so if I'm making healthy choices elsewhere, then having healthy responses to emotions is far, far easier versus if I'm ignoring guardrails, not choosing to have margin, then negative emotions and expressing them poorly is probably going to be par for the course. And so specifically related to, like, Christmas and holidays, if I'm at a family gathering and I choose to stay up too late and eat too much and drink too much, then the next day, if I'm grumpy and lashing out at my kids, it's like, well, is it because I haven't managed my emotions as a parent? Or was it because mentally and emotionally and physically I was just in a place like I could not respond to anything well. And so I think it's being honest with ourselves about our limits and being able to say, well, you know, I might be able to stay up late for an event and have that for one night in a week, but that means the next day has got to be low key or I've got to be able to get extra rest. And I'm probably not going to do that two nights in a row or whatever the case might be. I mean, you need to know yourself. But looking ahead at your holiday commitments, your Christmas trips, whatever family stuff you're doing, and just saying where. Where will I be tempted to lose sight of my. My healthy margins in life?

Yeah.

Because that's going to lead to unhealthy emotional responses. And so the two, I think just tying together healthy choices is gonna lead us into dealing with emotions in a healthy way.

Yeah. I think we need to recognize, accept, and then plan for and around our limitations. I think we expect a lot of ourselves. And for that point, we're not these young men anymore. When I was 18, I could be up till 3am, get up at 7 and be like, let's go, let's conquer the world. I got this. I can't do that.

At 18, your negative emotions didn't impact people near as when you're totally in your 30s and you have a wife and you have kids and like 18, you can get away with being grumpy in the morning. He's 18. Whatever.

Just give me some bacon and some coffee and I'll be fine. But I think that we need to definitely understand our limitations and plan around that. But I think you talked about earlier, Nick, like emotions being indicators of things going on. If I see some. An indicator, a bad indicator show up on the dashboard of my car, it's like, oh, okay, this needs some work. And I think that we need to like, a good way to manage it is not just be like, oh, I'll eventually get to it, or oh, that's not actually a big deal, because if you don't address that, it is gonna be a big deal. Your car's gonna break down, you're not gonna have anywhere to go, and then guess what? Negative emotion's gonna show up. Just FYI. But I think that we need to give space for that, honor that, and then we need to like, take action steps. You know, I was thinking about maybe we're at a Christmas party or something like that and a negative emotion or again, there's no negative emotions. When an emotion comes that we don't like or we feel is negative in that moment, we could just like tap our spouse and be like, I just, I feel like I need you to share really quick. I'm not, I don't need to unpack it now, maybe we can get to it later. But I'm feeling really triggered. I'm feeling really sad or I'm feeling really angry and just giving it space quickly and then knowing you're gonna come back to it later. I think even that can go a long way where it's just like, I'm angry, I'm not gonna tell anybody. I'm angry, I'm not gonna tell anybody. It's like that, you know, finding pockets, you know, I think Bob, you'd even talked about it too. An alarm going off, going out of the room, doing some deep breathing things like that can be so helpful because you're giving it that space, honoring the emotion that's really there, but then knowing, okay, I've identified it, I don't have to address it in this moment, but I do need to come back to it. And then making plans to come back to it.

Yeah.

I think along with that, even just owning what we need to own. Right. Like we're so, we're going to be interacting with people and like, did we say something? Do we do something? Right? Do we, like, how can we, how can we circle back? Right? So for instance, like when you were talking about sarcasm and I made a sarcastic joke at the end of that, right. Like, right afterwards I noticed that my, like, literally my face got like, I felt like flushed in my face. I was like, crap. I don't know if Trevor, like, I don't know if that landed as the joke. Right.

Yeah.

Or if that was like, if that came across as rude. So for me, like in a relational, and this is a relational environment, right. So I would come back and I would say, hey, Trevor, like, I didn't mean for that to sound like rude or minimizing of what you said. Right. So I'm actually saying that right now. Hey, Trevor, I didn't mean that to sound rude or minimizing of what he said. That probably wasn't the time for me to make a sarcastic joke, right? Yeah. So I think like we get to come back and own totally what we need to own. Because that's like in holidays, that's part of it is there's either all of this relational stuff happening, and we have anxiety from that, or there's a. Like, maybe there's a lack of relational stuff happening, because that's. That's part of it, too, is it's like, well, how are. How are we dealing with whatever it is that's in front of us? And so, hey, Trevor, I'm sorry if that's not. If that felt minimizing to what you were saying.

Yeah. I mean, I hate you. We're done being friends, but it's fine. Whatever.

Wow. Dark turn.

But, like, I think that there's something to be said, though, that, like, there is a fear that when even in this space and, you know, full transparency, like, that means a lot to me, I didn't take it that way. But in those moments where we own our stuff, there is a fear where I can't control how that person's gonna respond. I can't control if they're gonna be angry or upset or dismiss it or just be like, you're being dumb, whatever. And so there's that fear. And I think that fear is what keeps us from owning some of that stuff, because there may be some relational difficulty that happens. If I say, hey, I was being sarcastic. I'm sorry. And if, you know, if it's your spouse, if it's a family member, it's just like, I hate it when you do that and then walks away. It's like, well, then, crap, why'd I even say anything?

You know? Well, on the other hand, then, you know, definitely know. That's what I love about what you guys are saying, is that I think we need to walk into the holidays and Christmas with an awareness that I'm probably not going to do it perfectly, and I shouldn't expect myself to. If you've got a large family and there's Christmas stuff or Christmas pictures or visiting the Christmas tree farm, I mean, those are good things to do. But they're going to be hard. Like, not everyone's going to be in a good mood. The weather's not. There's just things that happen that are normal human stuff. And we're going to get angry, we're going to get sad, we're going to get a little out of sorts. And if we give ourselves permission not just to, you know, act poorly, but to be like, you know what? I'm human. I'm going to get angry. But then have that commitment to following through, following up, going back, you know, being the first to own our stuff, being the first to apologize, that's, I think, the gift of emotional self awareness we bring to others is to say, you know, when we were getting ready for the family picture, I realized I got really triggered and angry because I felt like others didn't care about getting ready the way I did. And I took that out rather than expressing how I was feeling. I just took it out on you and the kids and I'm sorry. And I think when we bring an apology to someone that isn't just, hey, I'm sorry I did something, but is also rooted in what we understood was going on in us and it gives them an insight into us that can mean a lot to people. And so in line with that, as we're thinking about regulating our own emotions, realize that we go into the holidays around a lot of other people that aren't necessarily going to regulate their emotions perfectly. So how do we maintain healthy management of our emotions when we're around others, usually due to the stress of the holiday season, who aren't managing their emotions well?

Yeah, I think we can anticipate it. Right. So back to the three circles. Like we can look at our middle circle and if you're not familiar with that tool, it's in some of our resources, maybe we can give a plug for that later, I don't know. But you know, the middle circle that we listen to people, places, things, times a day, whatever, that create vulnerability for us. And so if we know that, if we've already listed time with our family as a vulnerable spot. Okay, then let's prepare for that. Yeah, and so by prepare, by prepare for that, I mean, like let's plan on making a check in phone call or text message before the time with our family and after the time with our family. Right. Like if we know that going back to the house we grew up in is triggering because that's where we were either you know, emotionally or physically abused, experienced trauma, or maybe that's where we did a majority of our acting out sexually as a kid. Right. We know we're going to be back into a space that is triggering for us. Let's prepare for that. Like, let's make sure that we are creating kind of bookending maybe self care around this event. Right. But, but to go in naively, I don't know, maybe that's not a fair word. They're going with the expectation like, like you guys were saying that. Okay, no, this is going to be good.

Yeah, right.

This is like to go into that expectation for ourself just like we're setting ourselves up for failure. Yeah, let's go in with the. Okay, no, I know this is going to be challenging because I already listed out these people. Right. I love these people. I want to be around these people and these people bring some things up for me. And so to create structure, whether it's self care, doing things that are refreshing, deep breathing, personal promises, or just making check in phone calls and texts.

Yeah, yeah. I think boundaries and making a plan were two things that came up. And sometimes those can be the same thing. Honestly, like, okay, we're gonna go into, we know the next three days. We have three Christmas parties. Okay, got it. So party number one, we're gonna stay until 6:30. Party number two, we're only gonna stay for an hour. Party number three, we're gonna. This one maybe can be a little bit more open ended. We don't have anything. Day 4 or we may show up a little later, giving ourselves some more time and space to relax the day of that third party. Something like that. I think those can be boundaries that you put in place that help you to manage your emotions, to help you kind of come down from those. Cause those parties, especially if they're with family, can be emotionally taxing whether we want them to be or not. But you know, as I was thinking about what you were saying, Bob, about planning for stuff, I think of my youngest brother who I love, adore, and I don't get to see him very often. When we do family stuff, I get to see him, but he's also like, he just likes to, he gets worn out and likes to go into his room and like check out while people are still there. It's like, Chad, don't you know I want to see you. Like, why do you always do? And so for me, even going into these holidays, understanding that if I am gonna see him, I already know what he's gonna do. And so just plan for that. Just plan when I see him, take advantage of it, hang out with him, you know, like give him a hug, tell him I love him. And then when he goes into his room, it's like, trev, we planned for this. You knew that Chad was gonna go into his room and it's gonna be okay. And then even talking to Amy about it, my wife beforehand or processing it with a group member, something like that. I think that that helps us get us into the right mindset when we enter those spaces that we know have been and we know can be challenging.

Yeah. The phrase that comes to mind, and I think you're both talking about it would be the phrase self differentiation. And that's a long word, but it just simply means knowing where you end and I begin and that there's a difference there. So that what you're feeling doesn't have to be what I'm feeling, how you're reacting doesn't have to be how I'm reacting. And I think especially in family of origin situations, people we've known a long, long time, there tends to be cycles of, well, he gets mad and then I get mad, or she gets negative and I get negative, he becomes critical and I respond. And just if we can see those patterns, I think it's healthy to go into it saying when they experience emotion X, I can still be authentic to me because in self differentiation it's really a self awareness that I can control me, I can control my responses, my reactions, but I can't control you. And especially if we're a people pleaser, especially if we're the person hosting an event, especially if we tend to be service minded, that can be part of our M.O. like why part of me feeling good is that I've helped you feel good. And so if you're not feeling good, then I'm also not feeling good. And that just can set a lot of people in an unhealthy direction. So I think it's okay to want to serve others, it's okay to want to host a fun party, it's okay to want people to enjoy an experience. But you can't get to that place of feeling that you're responsible for their emotions and that if they get angry now it's your fault and now you're angry. This just gets really unhealthy. So having that plan and communicating along the lines of I can control me and I know what emotions I can bring to the table and how I can help. I think that that's a mindset that just can really make a big difference in those gatherings.

Yeah.

In that question that we have, we said how do we maintain a healthy management of our emotions? And I think that like Nick and that self differentiation, it's like how do we pursue a healthy participation in our emotions? Right? Like we can't mean we can't maintain, like it's a static. All right, we got good emotions and we're okay, Right? Yeah. And I don't even know we're trying to manage our emotions by saying like these ones are good and these ones are bad. Right. Like you were saying, Trevor, there aren't bad emotions, there's emotions. So how do we pursue this, like ongoing participation? Like because we're not like we want to participate. We don't want to just shut them down. Say, okay, what am I feeling? Why am I feeling that? Right. But, Nick, I loved what you said that. It's like, those are mine, though.

Yeah.

Like, those don't have to be dictated by how other people are acting, feeling, whatever. Right, sure. You said in the boundaries. Yeah. It's like, these are my emotions. I'm responsible for these. Let me, like, participate in them, find out why they're there. Because there can also be some healing that happens in that. Right. If we're. If we're at dinner and we realize that we get triggered every time, I don't know, somebody cuts into the turkey.

Right.

And then. Because for us, that reminds us of how we were a kid and we always wanted to help carve the turkey, but, you know, dad always told us just to stay the hell out of the way because we're messing things up. You know what I mean? Like, for us, it's like someone's cuts into the turkey and we're just reminded of how. And then I never thought of that until we just cut into the turkey right now. And, like, we can actually have some healing in there. And so we're not trying to, I don't think, dismiss them or manage, but maybe, like, participate.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, That's. That is good. I think an only a small addition to that is that I know for me, I feel pressure that if I'm feeling sad or if I'm feeling upset or disappointed, I somehow don't want to show that because I don't want to disappoint people or let them down. Where if you go to a Christmas party and you're feeling sad, that's okay. Like, it's okay if you're feeling sad. You know when someone says, like, hey, are you doing okay? And you're like, yeah, I'm totally fine. Yeah, yeah. You know, and if you're. If you're not, like, it's okay to be honest. And knowing that their reaction is not our responsibility. Our responsibility is to own where we are at. Okay, as we wrap this up, week two of this Health for the Holidays series, what final tips or advice can we give to both men and women who are in the recovery or the healing journey and they want to manage their emotions in a healthy way during the holidays? What would we say?

I think we keep coming back to, like, have grace for yourself. Right? I mean, what. What are you feeling? It's not bad. It's not right or wrong, but just have grace for yourself. I mean, the expectations that you have for the holidays, the expectations that you have for doing it better this year, you know, whatever. I think like God's expectation is that he just wants to, like, cherish us in this moment and that we can participate in this relationship and that. I mean, ideally, that's the goal. Right. Like, even in our recovery, what we're doing, the opposite of addiction is connection. And I think even as we're working through trauma, like, what we want is we want to be able to have healthy, safe relationships with people. And so, you know, wherever you're at, like for this particular holiday season, just to have the grace for yourself to be where you're at. Right. That doesn't mean to stay isolated. That doesn't mean to stay maybe angry or bitter. But yeah, just be honest with yourself and have grace for it. And God's expectations for you are just that you are present and in relationship as best you can and that you're being honest and working through things.

Yeah. What came to mind for me is the Stockdale Principle, which is not usually applied to this sort of thing, but it's what Stockdale thought of when they were in imprisonment camps in World War II. And looking at who are the people that didn't make it or survive were often the people that were optimists who were saying, we're going to be out by Easter and now we're going to be out by Labor Day, we're going to be out by Christmas. And they lost hope and they died. But it was those who had a hope of freedom that held onto that future oriented goal, but also really accepted the reality of their situation, that this may last. We don't know how long it will last, but we will endure. And I think when it comes to holidays, if we have those two things in place, that we accept the reality of our situation, both where we're at, maybe in our own recovery, where our marriage is at, where we're at with our kids, where our family's at, and when we don't give in to those unrealistic expectations of being the perfect family, if we know, like, you know, this is going to be rocky, my relationship with my parents, when we go is not great. Things are going to probably at some point not be perfect. And that's okay. I'm just going to embrace and accept that reality. And yet if I'm looking towards something that is a goal or future oriented, that really helps. And so that's what I would encourage everyone to do is clarify, what do you hope to get out of this holiday season and not something unrealistic like, well, it's going to be the best Christmas ever or else. But if we had a goal, like my goal is to have three meaningful connections with this family member, even though I know a lot of other things around that are going to be rocky and unstable, then I'm focusing on that goal. And if at the end that happened, we had those three good connections, or if I'm thinking I want to create three good experiences where we do something as a family, you know, if that's happening. While I'm also maintaining a realistic view of my relationships and how things are, I think I'm able to handle a lot of negative stuff that comes, whether it's things I'm feeling or others are doing. It's like, you know, I kind of expected this, this is the reality of where we're at. But I'm still going to be able to move towards the things that I'm really hoping come out of this holiday season. And I would share those goals or those future oriented thoughts with a friend or family member, your spouse, to find out is this a realistic hope? Is this something that we could work towards? And if it is, then I think keeping that in mind, like I said, it allows you to weather the storm of a lot of other things because you still see that the things you were hoping for are coming to pass.

Yeah.

My only question tip is just to remember that your emotions are not bad. Emotions were given to us by God when he designed us. It's part of who we are holistically and to give them space. I really, you know, I think of using a tool like the feelings wheel where you're able to identify and point to. Here's what I'm feeling. I'm not just feeling angry. I'm actually feeling rejected or what like whatever it may be. But I really think that that's something we need to really ingrain in ourselves, is that our emotions are not bad. The fact that I feel them is not bad. The fact that these feelings make me want to do things is not bad. That's the way it's set up. And so we need to give space for and honor our emotions because they're part of what make us who we are.

Yeah. I thought of one more thing if I can throw it in, please. Yeah.

The final, final tip.

Is to create some, some traditions like for yourself. Right. Because that, because the, like the rhythm of Hol. It is tradition in the sense that this is when the holidays are right. There's a rhythm to it. And I think maybe to create some traditions that are for you or for your family. Some traditions that do bring rest, some traditions that do bring joy and meaning to what you're doing. Like, I know. You know, for us, like, we listen to a lot of vinyl records, and so, like, the first record that I put on on the day after Thanksgiving is the Vince Guaraldi Trio, you know, Charlie Brown Christmas.

Nice.

And it's like. It's this emerald green vinyl, and, like, I put it on and, like, we play that and there's like. And it's like, we've created this tradition for us that I look forward to. And it brings, like, as soon as, like, the record starts, like, there's just this kind of peace and joy and, you know, and so, like, we. It's different. I didn't have that. That wasn't a tradition I grew up with, but that's a tradition that we started. And it helps. It helps us to. Like, it helps me, but it just, you know, it helps us to kind of connect in a way. And, like, there's some. Some food that we make that is traditional for. For Rebecca from Venezuela. And so there's stuff that we do that it's like, no, this is our tradition, and this does bring a new meaning and a new connection and a new tradition for us.

Yeah, that.

That doesn't carry some maybe of the baggage from old stuff.

Definitely. That's good. Very practical.

Yeah.

Clearly from our conversation, health for the holidays is very possible, specifically with managing your emotions. It. It is possible. You just have to give it space. You have to process it. You need to invite other people into it. And we hope, wherever you're at on your journey, that this is helpful for you, because believe it or not, we have to manage our emotions every other season of the year, too. It's just. This is one. You know, as I mentioned earlier, they just bubble to the surface so much easier in this season. So just know that your emotions are important. They should be on and that you can manage and process them in a healthy way. And, Bob, you have helped us understand how to do that better today. And we obviously love and appreciate you. Thanks for being with us today.

Yeah, love and appreciate you guys, too.

And wherever you're at on your journey, pure desire is here to help create a roadmap for your healing. If you or someone you know is impacted by sexual brokenness or betrayal trauma, go to PureDesire.org and begin the healing journey today. If this podcast is helpful on your journey, Please share it with others. Make sure to subscribe subscribe to it Drop us a review. It helps other people find the show and each week we are putting out new content to help you on the road to healing and freedom. And lastly, never stop being healthy.