287 - Pure Desire Foundations: Biblically Based

Welcome to the Pure Desire Podcast, helping you take back your life from unwanted sexual behavior and betrayal trauma.

Happy New Year.

I am your host, Trevor Windsor, and you're listening to episode 287 of the Pure Desire Podcast. Here joining me, as always, is my co host, Nick Stumbo.

I declare bankruptcies.

I'm so sorry, everyone who's listening on their headphones or in their car, they just had to turn it down. Maybe you swerved a little bit in traffic.

Justin's over there giving me the stink eye in his headphones. Oh, my gosh.

Good thing we changed insurance, pal. Yeah. Okay.

Get those ears checked out.

All right, so we are in the new year. We're starting January 2023. And we thought, you know what? We haven't done a series focused on the foundations of what Pure Desire is built on. We've talked about it in and around it on a lot of episodes, but we're going to dedicate the next four weeks to the Pure Desire foundations. And the foundation of foundations is that we're biblically based. And today we had one of our clinicians, Harry Flanagan, on to talk about this biblically based foundation we have.

Yeah. And just to put any of our listeners at ease who are worried, like, oh, man, there's four weeks, they're just going to be talking about pure Desire in the ministry. I think you'll be surprised how little we actually talk about, like, pure desire. We're really focusing on the foundations of healing that have made pure desire what it is. And so these episodes really are for you, the listener, to be able to look at your own story and say, is my recovery really through the lens of scripture in coming weeks, am I utilizing the best of tools that I can to understand my journey? And how are we as a couple walking through this from a family systems perspective? So this is not meant to be, like, let us tell you about all the ins and outs of Pure Desire, because I think other than outside of some of our most, you know, our most passionate fans, to most people, that would be pretty boring. But no, today is all about, like, how. How is scripture deeply embedded in everything we do? As people know who've done pure Desire, these aren't Bible studies. It's a different approach to healing. But what I think we try to make clear today is it's no less foundational than what you might find in a Bible study. And like Michael Scott in the office, you can't just declare something and make it true. You actually have to put it into practice. And I think there's Actually something to that that a lot of groups claim, oh, this is biblical, but. But in practice, it's really not. And I think in some ways we're almost the opposite, that some of the biblical stuff isn't as overt, like our titles of chapters or some of the things you do don't feel as overtly biblical. But when you really get into the practice of what we're trying to put people in touch with, it's like, oh, this is thoroughly biblical. It's all about understanding who I am in Christ, who God has made me to be, and what are the lies that I've learned to listen to that keep me away from that. So I hope that's clear to the listener that this is so much more than just a declaration that then we're not living out, that it truly is the heartbeat of everything we do.

Start in 2023 with a great intro. Nice work.

I like that.

That was a banger. Well done. Before we get into it, you know, I think this is a really good time, especially as we're starting this new year and we're thinking through our own healing, helping other people. How do we get this more integrated into our churches? And one of the ways that we're helping people do that is through our individual and church memberships.

Yes, we are. Membership, as listeners know, is a newer idea for us. And we're really trying to look at if someone is consuming a lot of our resources, how can we make it advantageous to them? How can we kind of package it, bundle it together in a way that you get a lot for, you know, one subscription? Kind of like many of us do with whether it's Amazon or Netflix. That doesn't mean we use everything they have, although I think sometimes my family must be trying to purchase one of everything at Amazon, now that I look at my December bills. But just like that, you know, that doesn't mean you have to use every product Pure Desire has. But if you're in that place that you're in a group and you've been going through SI101 and you're thinking about going through the group leader training, and you come to an event like, if that's kind of on your radar, then being a member is going to make a lot of sense for you, because not only do those resources get packaged for you in a more affordable way, it also gives you access to some things that we're doing just for members to try to honor. This is a group that's more deeply connected, and so the level of content we want to give offer them is tailored to their desires. So there's more trainings, there's more webinars, there's monthly times that I just kind of do a devotional for our members, kind of a pastoral moment. So it makes a lot of sense. If you're into what we do. And if you're listening to this podcast for the very first time because you're starting the new year off right and you want to die, you're kind of an all or none kind of person. Hey, you can try membership too. But I also just want to say, like, no pressure. We're here to do as much as we can for you and for the church that's free to just create those avenues for healing. So if that's not something you're ready for, you're never going to be pressured about it. But just want to make sure people know that that's an opportunity that's there for them.

Yeah, and you can get an individual membership as a yearly subscription. And then also we do have different levels for church memberships with the number of seats in it. And so if you want more information or you want to get either of these memberships, just go to PureDesire.org membership with that. Make sure to subscribe to the podcast. Follow us on social media and this full episode will be up on YouTube. And with here is week one of our Pure Desire foundation series with Harry Flanagan discussing the biblical foundation of our ministry, the one and only Father Flanagan. Thanks for being back with us, Harry. It's good to see you.

Glad to be here. I'm excited for our conversation today.

We are too. And you know, as we're starting this new year, we really wanted to look at the foundations that make up Pure Desire and our approach to recovery and healing. And this is going to be part one of a four part series we'll have in January. And specifically today, we're looking at the biblical foundation of what we do. And as we are Christians and work with many different denominations, like tons of different denominations and even theological camps, we want to emphasize that this is the most important aspect to what we do. And for that reason, we are starting here with the biblical foundation that Pure Desire takes in its approach and with your pastoral background and you know, even like you are, we've talked about it a number of times having you on the podcast. You're like the OG staff member at Pure Desire. So with both your pastoral background and your experience on staff for as long as you've been here, we want to glean from that. And so let's just jump in with the first question. When we say pure desire is biblically based, what do we actually mean? Like, flesh that out for us?

Well, that's a great lob of a question to begin with. I appreciate it. I appreciate that, Trevor. But. But the, the foundational truth or the core of the truth that we're talking about is found scripturally. That's. That. That's literally all that biblically based means. The. The truth can be supported with the Bible.

Yep. And that's our episode. We'll see you next week. Now, let's. Let's keep riff. Like, what do you. What do you think, Nick, when you hear biblically based and from your role, what do we mean?

Well, I think it really illustrates what our starting point is. You know, it's not only the foundation, but it's like, what. What do we launch off from? And if we know that this is rooted in the word of God and that ultimately our goal is to bring people back to a deep, right, meaningful relationship with God and with others, then how does that happen? And so everything has to go through that grid of Scripture. Does it align? Is it consistent? You know, and what I would say with that is this is really meant to be building on the mission of the church. And so we are not a church. We're not here to evangelize. We're not here to disciple in the way that a church is. I think we have discipleship material, but that's something I encourage as a lot of churches look at the material. If they want this to be like a holistic teaching on the Christian life, it's like, well, that's really not the intent of the material, because you already are building that in your local church. You're building a foundation of faith and prayer and worship. And so there are a lot of topics like that we don't delve into because we're. We're basing this off of what a church is already doing, building on the word of God, and then from that, helping people have a tool and resources and group material to do discipleship along these lines. So I think it just speaks to what everything is built on, that it's our starting point. And so when we've had a few people say, well, I don't see this in your material, or I don't see that it's. We've said, well, we feel like people hear a lot of that, probably at their weekend services as they read the Bible, that we're trying to fill a niche. If you will of something that is missing that people don't have as part of their faith experience. So it's important that we express. This is where we start. And it's then the grid that everything has to go through to really say, does this fit into our approach or not?

Yeah, when I hear biblically based, I mean, first and foremost, it's just completely founded on the work that Christ did on the cross and like giving us that salvation. But then also God not only set us free from the penalty, but he also is setting us free now from the power of sin, specifically sexual sin and the impact of betrayal, trauma. And so I think it also fits into just an understanding. This is part of a sanctification process, which we know is a biblical model. And so I think it's just important to say that everything we do is founded on what Christ did for us and what he's continuing to do in us.

I, I want to say that, that, that we are a multicultural ministry. That, that when we deal with, you know, I have clients in, in South Africa, I have clients in Nigeria, Dominican Republic, Luxembourg, Belgium. And when I come into a counseling, I have to be able to discern where they're coming from because I don't know their cultures as well as they do. I'm always the, the, the, the outsider in terms of their culture. That also applies theologically. You know, that I've got to discern where they are at. You know, there, there are four in, in terms of major groupings. There are four different theological frameworks that, that different denominations and associations use in how they perceive God. You know, we have some people who, who come through our counseling who are involved with Eastern Orthodox, Russian Orthodox, Greek Orthodox, and they believe that God is a mystery and they carry no, no, no biblical or systematic theology perspective in how they view life. And we have some people who are fundamentalists who are just strictly biblical theologians in the sense that, for example, they won't use Trinity because Trinity is not explicitly found in Scripture. It's implied, but it's not explicitly taught in Scripture. So, and then you have systematic theology that involves the incorporation of both, both biblical theology. It can include the mysteries, because systematic theology also includes reasoning and logic, but it also involves nature, which is the fourth category. So, and we serve people with all of those different backgrounds and we have to figure out how to connect with them, to speak a language they are going to understand. And there are some people who are, who are involved with natural theology and they love science because they think science is going to give them new exposure to, to, to, to creation, to understanding how God made the universe that he's made for us to live in. And you have people who are on varying degrees with systematic theology, but for us to be able to communicate with them, we've got to be able to figure out where that, where's their starting point and speak a language they can understand.

Yeah, yeah. That's such a good perspective that as people come, if we're looking for our Pure Desire group material to align perfectly with everything we believe theologically, we're probably all going to be disappointed at some point because it's, you know, the work of Dr. Ted Roberts and then of Harry Flanagan and others that have added to it. And everyone has a unique personality and way of saying things. And so there's just, there are distinctives that we all bring. But I think when we say we're biblically based, that's the heart of this. It's to say we want to go back to the word of God and say, what do we understand about the world, about ourselves and about who God is? And how then do we apply that to this topic of sexual addiction? Which is what we're going to do more here in this episode. So, Harry, as we'll talk about more in this series, our approach at Pure Desire includes using clinical tools, different exercises, therapeutic practices alongside of the teachings of Christ and the word of God. And so over the years, I think because of that, our ministry has received some pushback from people that feel, well, those aren't biblical enough, or that we don't approach sinful habits in a traditional Christian manner of just, you know, repent and renounce it, some of those things. I mean, we certainly believe in the power of repentance and the need for repentance. But I think you hear what I'm saying that for some the pushback is we're just, we're not traditional enough because we incorporate some of these other, other tools. So why do you think some people can have a strong pushback on that when it comes to our approach to healing?

Well, again, this is why, Nick, I call this cross cultural ministry. For people to have that kind of pushback. It means we haven't set up the counseling well enough for them to be able to understand, to find that commonality, that common language that's going to help us to explore. And when you're talking about not biblically based, well then now you're talking about biblical theology. And biblical theology really across this spectrum of Christianity is not used very much because it is so limiting to just the actual language of scripture. You know, most denominations, most associations that we deal with have some form of a systematic theology. So we have to discover in our interactions with them, we certainly have tools. We have some fantastic tools to help people heal. But at the very beginning, you know, part of this is the. Is Nick, the historic perspective. Back in the 1730s, 30 ishes, you have the beginning of what we now call the holiness movement. And it was never a well organized movement. There was no leader, there was no organizational structure. But there was this, especially out of England, this great propensity to want to be pure. And so their formula for discipleship was changed from the out, outside in. Start doing the right behaviors and everything else will take care of itself. But I believe the model that Paul expounded on is closer to what health looks like. And that is change from the inside out. And that change from the inside out, we use tools to help with that. But all those tools I can only tell you from, as a clinician here at Pure Desire, that I could. Any tool that we use with. With somebody, I can show them the. The biblical basis by which we use that tool.

Right.

You know. You know, it says in Psalm 178 versus. I mean, one, I'm gonna get it wrong. I always get it wrong. Verse 178 of Psalm 1:19 says that David led the people of Israel with skilled hands and a heart of integrity. And I probably butchered that verse in coming up with the chapter and verse of it. But it. But in that is this. I want someone who's doing brain surgery. I mean, not to be able to just quote scriptures with me, but actually have the skill to be able to go inside my head and I come out alive. I kind of like that. I kind of like that.

So.

So we want change to be from the inside out. You know, Paul said in both Ephesians, chapter four and Colossians three, take off the old man, put on the new right. Romans 12:2, I think, is the core verse for my work at pure Desire. Do not be conformed to the images of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of the mind. It is that renewing of the mind process that all of our tools are geared towards. And it's not just memorizing Bible verses because we have to deal with the entirety of the mind that God's given us, both a conscious brain and that which is happening underneath the conscious brain in what we simplified call the limbic system.

Yep. Yeah. It's funny, as I was thinking about this question, I thought of why strong reactions tend to happen. And I remember years ago I read a book by Jack Dear called Surprised by the power of the Holy Spirit. And one of his lines in there is that so often we dismiss what we've never experienced before. And so for me, I grew up in a Baptist, more non denominational church culture and I was in a relationship with someone from a very Pentecostal, more leaning vineyard church background. And bro, when I got into the church I was like, I couldn't even sing the songs. I was watching the people dance in the front row and I just was like, what is this? What's happening? I remember the first prophetic word someone told me. To me it felt wrong because I'd never experienced it before. And so this book challenged my perspectives to really figure out, does the Bible support this? Does it not support this? Not does this fit my model or paradigm? And there's also this wrinkle in there that if we are exposed to maybe a new way of thinking or a new way of understanding Scripture and how really the Lord has created things to work, to work out, there's a fear that we might be wrong. Like all of this training, all of this background, all of this history in this camp or this denomination or whatever, somehow when we're exposed to something new, it's like, oh no, was I wrong this whole time or had I been duped before? And that fear, at least in my experience, has brought really strong reactions against hearing things that didn't fit my paradigm. Case in point, I remember I went to a Pure Desire University, is what the conference used to be called. And Ted Roberts map out very clearly that I was an addict. I was listening to him from the stage and my thought was, I'm not an addict, I'm a Christian, Ted's a moron. And I walked out the room like literally those were my thoughts. I know better now that I was an addict and that Ted is absolutely the opposite of a moron. But for me it was the fear that I had been wrong which brought about the strong reaction. I think that's the case for a lot of people when it comes to this conversation.

And Trevor, I really appreciate that perspective and I want to add to it. Do you know, I have always struggled with that desire to fully comprehend the nature of God until I was exposed to the reality that we are finite and God is infinite. And we may be able to conceptualize what his perfect love looks like, but we have not fully experienced the width and the breadth and the depth of that love. You know, it's like, you know, we can come up with a mathematical figure for what a, how large a light year is, how long. But, but there's never been a human being who's existed who has ever experienced traveling a light year. And we have galaxy clusters that are 100 million light years wide. I can't comprehend that. I can tell you that that's what the scientists are saying, but for me that's mind boggling, you know, and so, so we are on a journey of transformation. And I, and I think that some people we work with, the people who struggle the hardest are the people who aren't necessarily turning to God, they're turning to their theology and looking what their theology tells them is tr Instead of saying, God, expose me to more of who you are, help me to grow.

Yeah, that's what I was thinking about. That if our perspective on sin is that we sin because we don't know the Bible well enough or that people don't know the Bible well enough, then the answer or the solution always becomes, well, we need to understand the Bible better, we need to teach the Bible better. And I think there are, there are streams throughout the church, you know, going all the way back to the first century where we talk about kind of this knowledge based faith in that. Yet Paul says in First Corinthians 8 that knowledge puffs up, but it's love that builds up. And I think there is a tendency to kind of move towards that knowledge based approach to faith that if I just know the right things or if I just teach people the right things, they won't sin. And if that's our perspective, then yes, pure desire or a multitude of other approaches to health and recovery aren't going to be biblical enough for that person. And that's something, I've had that conversation a lot with people to say this isn't a Bible study. And if what you're expecting is a Bible study, I think you'll be disappointed. Even though in practically every lesson, like in the Seven Pillars of Freedom, men are going to be studying a portion of Scripture, but it will be in connection to their journey and to their story and the sharing that they're doing. So it's again, it's the foundation, but it's not. Everything we do has to be, okay, let's come and sit and understand this passage better. Because if we understand it, then we won't sin because we've recognized there's a whole lot more to our behavior than just a lack of knowledge. In fact, I would say most men and women that would raise their hand and say, I'm battling with some kind of unwanted sexual behavior. Who would call themselves Christians, know the right scripture passages, They've read their bibles, they understand what it says. They have an inability to know how to apply it and to live it out. And it's not a knowledge problem. It's a life and experience and an application problem.

Yep, absolutely.

I'm convinced that a section of scripture that's not taught all that much is Romans 14, where Paul tells us that who are you to be convinced in your own mind as to what you believe? But who are you to judge the servant of another? For by his master he stands or falls, and if his master is Christ Jesus, then he will stand. You know, there is an element where we as a staff have to be gracious to people who have a different perspective of Christianity than what we have. And frankly, there are going to be some people who, in the niche that they're in, won't trust what we have to offer folks. And that's okay. I mean, let's put this into perspective. Jesus, I think the two of you would agree with me. Jesus not only led a sinless life, he led a perfect life. And at one point in time, almost every single person that was close to him was disappointed in him because they had expectations of him that. That weren't the expectations of the Father.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's a good point.

Yeah, it's absolutely true. I think too. Just real quick, I would say, you know, seeing that there are arguments and dissension even among people who are highly respected in the Bible. I mean, Peter and Paul had some arguments and some problems with how they were approaching ministry, how they were preaching the gospel. And I think that, listen, if the apostle Peter and Paul both had some issues with each other, were bound to have some issues with each other today. Harry, specifically, and I love this question for you because you are a clinician, One of the biggest pushbacks that we get as a ministry is around the topic or reality of addiction. Where do we see addiction in scripture? And how can we back up the reality of addiction by looking at the Bible?

Trevor, that's a great question. You would be surprised how little that that shows up in the counseling office. This is pre counseling that those kind of questions come up mostly. But some people will turn to their interpretation of Romans chapter 7, verse 15, where Paul is declaring, I find the members of my body doing the very thing I don't want to do. And I think that may be a great starting place for this. But I think that there is a bigger biblical foundation and you're going to have among the clinical people of the world all kinds of definitions for addiction. But I am an avowed reductionist. So with all my clients, I define addiction as a compulsive, destructive, self coping behavior. Well, in a self coping behavior I'm turning to someone or something to meet my needs. And the issue is what the Bible calls idolatry. I'm looking to someone or something else other than God to meet my needs. John Wesley was debating in Piccadilly Square, a fellow about the nature of God and someone asked him to define the world because he was quoting a section of scripture where Jesus talked about the world. And his response, Wesley's response was wonderful. He said, anything that makes my heart grow cold to Christ. So we addictions can be over anything. It has to do with how we prioritize that object or that behavior or that person and we turn to them looking for solutions instead of our ability to turn to God for solutions.

Yeah, yeah.

I think we see a number of examples in scripture. You know, when I've heard Dr. Ted preach on addiction, you know, he'll talk about the lost son story that Jesus tells in Luke 15, that a young man who goes away into a foreign country and wastes all this money, it didn't happen all at once. It would have been a period of, you know, weeks or months or even years in order to spend this fortune. And I think Jesus gives that as an example of someone that is lost in their sin even though they know the father. And I think of the kings of Israel that all show tendencies to what Harry said. That's great by the way. A destructive, compulsive, self coping behavior. You know, the first King Saul is on a couple of occasions offering sacrifices that were illegal for him to make because he wasn't a priest. But he was doing it in order to try to appease his troops or to try to build their confidence. And so I think we see in there he has some very kind of self driven needs to be a people pleaser or to have some semblance of control. Then obviously throughout King David's life we see him engaging in the number of wives that he has and his sin with Bathsheba, you know, obviously the most well known example. And then you see the way that that's passed into the life of Solomon, who ends up with hundreds of wives and hundreds of concubines. And you can't tell me that that was all just cultural. You know, there were, there were things that he wrote about in Proverbs and Song of Solomon, that would suggest he knew and understood the truth. He understood relationships and the need for commitment and being devoted to someone. And yet his heart, and this is, you know, explained in his story in Kings that his heart continued to go after these other women and that they're. That they led him astray. His heart was led astray from God, really, because I think of his addiction to. I mean, I don't know if it was to sex or to marriage or to in laws, what he had this insatiable thirst to get more of, but it was never satisfied. And Scripture says it took his heart away from God. And so I think we see in a number of places. And then of course, the one that Dr. Ted would use the most in his preaching was Hosea. That in that story, if we could see ourselves as the gomer, as someone who has experienced the goodness of God, has been given a name and safety and protection, and yet still will run back to our former lovers because there's. There's a hook there or something that will draw us back.

Yeah.

And I think a lot of us, when we really let. Let ourselves be put into the. That story, it's like, oh, yeah, I. I've been there. I. I know what that feels like to have all the reasons to stay and find my contentment in Christ alone. And yet, yeah. Find myself doing what Romans 7 says, doing the very things I hate and don't want to do.

Yeah. I think just as you guys have been talking, just thinking about the active language that constantly we see throughout Scripture. It's not a, you know, believe this once and then just sit on your hands and everything gets taken care of. It's a constant active language of taking off and putting on, renewing our mind, pursuing the Lord, being in community, praying, fasting. Like there are actionable things that we are called to on a consistent basis, regular rhythms that bring about it. And I think that, that, in my opinion, that's part of. Because we have a tendency to find ourselves in destructive, compulsive behaviors that are coping. Right. And so these are ways to actively move the other direction toward the Lord. And I think that that caters to this conversation around this topic.

Yeah. Yeah. So we're already starting to get into it, Harry. So let me lob the question back because I have a feeling you're going to go deeper with it. But what does scripture teach us then? You know, if we feel like we can see some elements or stories of addiction in Scripture, what does Scripture Teach us about finding recovery. How do we apply these biblical principles in our approach to healing and recovery?

Yeah, that, that could be the, the off the next four sessions that two of you do, plus the rest of the year, 2023 can be devoted to that. But, but I, you know, again, being the reductionist Nick that I am, I come back to the renewing of the mind. And a great example is that Ted gets saved. Ted decides to go to a Bible college in, in, I think it was in West Virginia. And he's walking across campus one of the very first days, and the noon town siren goes off. And Ted reacts limbically to that and jumps into a dumpster. Everyone else is just kind of walking around ignoring the, the, the siren and Ted's, Ted's thinking Vietnam. Yeah, exactly. There is incoming. You protect yourself. And, and so the renewing of the mind is digging into the belief systems that we have in place. Because remember here, here is at the very core of what I do when, when we're down to the nitty gritty with, with a husband and wife or where one of them are addicted or individuals is, is being able to connect them to replacing old core beliefs with the truth. The difference is the core beliefs, most of those are actually subconscious. And we now have tools to bring those to conscious awareness so that we can challenge them and replace them with biblical truth. And that's where those tools that you were asking me about, Nick, come in handy. Most of our counselors are actively using Genesis process, Michael Dye's great work helping us to limbically change. Because the limbic system only can be changed experientially, can't be changed just by memorizing or memorizing or sharing information. That information has to be put into practice. And that's where the deep changes take place. When people come to these aha moments in their life and they realize that this new pattern of behavior is better than the old pattern and that they can survive life without turning to whatever they are using for their idolatry or addiction to cope with life.

You know, I did some studying recently on the pattern of sin entering the world and how that continues to play out even today. So if you go back to Genesis, you see that, you know, Adam and Eve were given this opportunity to obey the Lord by not eating a certain fruit from a tree. And then a snake appears. So something happens. And when something happens in our lives, this pattern will play out. I'll walk that through in just a second. But a lie takes place. Then we start to doubt who the Lord Is we take things into our own hands and then things go poorly. Like that pattern is littered across scripture. And we see it even today where something difficult happens. Like for Ted, that example, he went through something super traumatic in Vietnam. And in those moments, and if we see it like Satan is called the father of lies, like, it's what he does, it's his primary tactic. And so when those difficult, painful, wounding things happen in life, that's when he is at his best because he creeps in and plants a lie that sounds sort of like the truth and makes sense to us. And then because of that, we lose trust in God, we take things in our own hands and things go poorly. And so I think you can see a pattern of trauma and pain being an open door to unwanted behaviors. So I think that's. That's one aspect that I would address with this question. But then another is, I think, and this is, you know, to your point earlier about systematic theology thinking through reason, I think you need to go Back to Genesis 1. 1. In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. And you see Genesis 1 and 2, that God created us man and woman, in his image with the brain and with the body. And science is uncovering things in the last few decades about our brain and about our bodies. And that's stuff that was already there from the beginning that God created into us. Having a limbic system, having trauma impact us both at a neurological level, but then also our physical bodies reacting trauma, and then even how addiction plays out in the brain. And so sometimes when we get pushback on when it comes to battling addiction by looking at trauma and the effect it has or the brain science behind it, I think it's shortsighted because in reality, it's God who designed our brains that way, and it's God who designed us to have a holistic being where what happens to our body impacts our spirit and vice versa. And what happens to our brain impacts what we do and the choices that we make. And so I think you can make a case, and some people may argue and that's okay, but I think you can make a case from Genesis 1 that the way God has designed us, we are just now coming to understand really the far reaching reality of all that.

Well, that's a really good point of how we understand recovery, because really we're taking people back to understand the original intent of who God designed and made you to be. When he gave you sexual organs and brain chemistry and all these desires and things that create pleasure. I mean, all those that are God given, but have been tainted and twisted by Satan and by sin for evil purposes. That is what addiction recovery is, is to say, let us see all the ways that this has been twisted. And how do we get back to what God intended? Because that's the heart. As you brought up about Jesus, Harry, it's not just that Jesus was sinless. He didn't just go around avoiding sin. He actually lived a perfect life because he was one with the Father. He didn't say anything except what God told him to say. He didn't do anything except what God. You know, there's a great passage in John where Jesus says, I don't say anything except for what God tells me to say and how he tells me to say it. You know, this implication that, like, Jesus doesn't even ask a question or emphasize a syllable unless God told him to do it. That's. That's how united he was. So that's a perfect life of being united with God. And so for us, kind of that same idea, how do we be in a place where we're in unison with God and others? And I thought of other Scripture pass. I thought of other scripture passages like Romans 12:1 and 2, as Harry already mentioned. But even the 12:1 part about offering your body to God as a living sacrifice, that part of my worship is bringing my physical self, who I am, to God and saying, lord, it's yours. And then with his help and the help of others, exposing the pattern of this world that I've become pressed into so that I can renew my mind. And then I was thinking of Galatians 6:1:5, where we're called to bear one another's burdens, to go to those that are trapped in sin and help restore those gently, even while at the same time we're told to bear our own burdens, to carry our own responsibility, so to speak. And that's something I think we're actively doing in groups and in counseling. And then the other one I thought of was throughout Scripture, whether we're talking Proverbs 7, the illustration there, Colossians 3, 2nd Timothy 2, 22, this repeated admonition in Scripture that we're to avoid, to run away from, to flee sexual idolatry and temptation. And so I think that's a big part of what we do. When we talk about guardrails, when we talk about your arousal template and understanding your trigger, yes, those are, in a sense, extra biblical tools and resources. But we're really just trying to help people understand, how do I flee? Because fleeing doesn't always mean I get up and run out of the room. Because that could be really awkward in some situations if you were just always running out of the room. Room. But. But fleeing might mean, how do I have healthy guardrails? How do I understand my three circles? How do I have awareness of my arousal template so I can make a phone call when I need to? That, that. That is in a much more holistic way, the. The encouragement of scripture to flee and have nothing to do with because I'm being very proactive about the steps that I take. So those were just a number of other scripture passages I thought of that really involve how we apply this truth of overcoming addiction through a biblical lens.

Yeah. The very first pastor of Pure Desire, back when it was actually called in the local church, it was called for men Only. He and I were talking church history, and he said to me, harry, since the holiness movement, we have, we have taught our people, sex is dirty. Save it for the one you love. Yeah. And I think that we have this false concept of Christian, of morality. You know, when Paul tells us that we are a new creation, it's not because our personalities change. It is the revelation that God actually is residing in us. And you know, Colossians chapter one, I think it's verse 27 where Paul says, it's a mystery to the Gentiles. God in us, the hope of glory. You know, Galatians 2, 20, it's not I who live, but Christ who lives in me. Philippians, chapter 1, verse 21, that declares, to live as Christ and to die is to gain. There is a transformation in our lives because residing within us is the Holy Spirit. God is living in us, and we are righteous because we have God in us. You know, because, for example, Isaiah 64, 6, the prophet is prophet. Isaiah is saying, hey, listen, our attempts at righteousness are but filthy rags. And I won't go into the detail of what he meant by that, but it's kind of gruesome. And then you have Paul being even more powerful and saying, listen to writing to the church. We are all sinners who fall short of the glory of God. Our flesh, in our flesh. We can't obtain righteousness. It comes from that encounter with Christ himself. And I would tell you that in our counseling, I believe all of our counselors, there are opportunities to graciously take people deeper in their walk with Christ. That is totally in line with their healing. But we just want to make sure that we're not proselyting from their church. We have to again speak A language that they're going to be able to understand and apply back to that part of the church family that they belong to. So by taking them to a deeper place in their relationship, their encounter with Christ.

Yeah, I feel like you're already getting into the next question, because this is something that I love about our resources and, you know, is both in our group resources and in our clinical program as well. But obviously from this, you can tell that we believe Christ is absolutely central to the work of recovery and healing. And so how does that show up in our work? How do we. How does that play out? Christ being central to it in the clinical program in our group resources?

Trevor, you know, I love that question because I can give you the intellectual answer, but I want to take you into to the actual counseling. I was talking with a young man, single guy, and he introduced himself as Paul. And every time I went to say his name, I started stuttering because I kept wanting to call him Don. No clue why I wanted to do that. And. And finally, it was so disruptive to me that I asked Paul the question, does the name Don mean something to you? And it was like I put a cobra on the desk. He literally jumped up, grabbed a chair, and kept it between him and me because I used the word don't. And it turns out that as he began to, he was angry, he was upset. But what came out was that his father, he was named after his father. His father's name was Don. And when he was seven years old, his dad abandoned the family, and he chose to become Paul because he didn't want to be associated with Don. Well, that was the beginning of his healing. And I believe it was because there was an intervention in me, because I had no reason in the natural realm to be calling him Don for any reason. The. The. All the documents, everyone else called him Paul. And then this happened, and he had to work through the trauma and the pain of what he had been experiencing. I don't believe that. That. That healing happens in a vacuum. And if Jesus said, I will never leave you or forsake you, I will be with you always. I am going into the counseling appointment with the belief that. That. That God is with me and that at times is going to redirect me to do what. What he wants me to do. So sometimes I come in with my own agenda, and I discover that my own agenda is not going to be used. I have to set it aside because God has other intentions.

Yeah.

Yeah. I would say from my perspective, that was very much the experience. I had walking through pure desire as a pastor. And I mean, I knew all the theology. I knew the theology of God's love. I knew all the verses about God's love. But the way I would describe it is that because of my past trauma and wounds and how I was convinced that my worth and value came from performance and success and getting people to like me, all those words about God's unconditional love really couldn't penetrate into the depth of my heart and soul the way they needed to, to actually mean something. And I think walking through pure desire, that first group really exposed what the lies were. And then at a deeper level, where they came from, what were the stories from my past that were driving those lies. And then as those were exposed, having a new and fresh way to invite God's love and the cross of Christ into my life in ways that actually made sense. Because now the lies and the trauma weren't blocking me from experiencing all that Christ had done. And I think that's functionally the way many Christians are living is they know all the right stuff, but there's all this blockage of their pain and their wounds and the limbic lies and the stuff that Satan has gotten them to believe because it sounds like their own voice from the experiences they've had along the way that they're not able to really internalize the true depth of Christ's love. And I think that's. Harry just said it beautifully. That's what we do in counseling and in groups is we help people get in touch with how God really feels about them because they're able to have their whole story known and then experience God's love in a way. You know, I said it about my first group and I've heard a lot of other people say it. Like, I've never felt God's love until everybody knew the depth of my sin. And then his love became real to me. And I think that's what happens in a group and in counseling.

A couple of the ways it's showed up for me personally is I remember going through the lesson in Seven Pillars that talks about developing personal promises or in older versions. And this is where we work with multiple denominations. We could call it prophetic promises or personal promises, whichever you are okay with. But tying scripture, a reality of scripture, to an experience. And I remember being at Young Life Camp. We were had some students from another country who were in town who'd never heard the gospel before. They had just had, you know, a teaching on sin and what Jesus had done for them. And would go outside for this reflection time and there was sheet lightning. And I'd never seen sheet lightning in my entire life. But it looks like big flashbulbs in the sky. And I remember feeling so small and thinking how big God was and then tying that to the reality that he is in control and he is sovereign. And you know, even some of the things, specifically what came to mind is in Job when God says, where were you? When I put all this stuff together, where were you? And I remember how meaningful it was to write that out and tie that, that scripture to that reality. And I think that's one of the ways that Christ is absolutely central using scripture in our experience. And then another. And we've. I think, I don't know if you remember this, but we did an episode with Dr. Ted long time ago, probably hundreds of episodes ago, where he actually walked us through the sword drill and made us experience it with him during the episode. It was one of the most uncomfortable episodes I've been a part of. But the sword drill is just a tool that helps you experience scripture at a much deeper level. It's not just reading for information. It's thinking through experientially what was going on. And even so, I think that tool. I had a seminary professor talk about how we need to read more sympathetically to when we read about the Israelites, when we read about the Pharisees, that we're not the hero in those stories, we're the ones who are struggling. And I think the sword drill is something that helps us unpack the deeper riches and reality of scripture. And I think that those are a couple of the big tools that have helped me that are very Christ centered tools that play out in a group experience.

Thank you, Trevor. Is. It's an amazing experience because most of the people, the clients, including pastors who come into our counseling program, confuse their theology with a personal relationship with God. And a part of this healing process is God's consistently gracious to intervene in their lives in such a way that they're discovering his personal love and care for them that goes beyond their knowledge base. Yeah, yeah. And. And yet when people come in and they are so focused on their theology, they have this theological template that they turn to instead of turning to God.

Yep.

You know, that, that, that diminishes their ability to comprehend what's happening, because this is just me. And I'm not speaking for pure desire for those of you who are listening, but I think every single form of theology is a lot like Swiss cheese. There's a lot of holes in it because, because there's more to learn. There's always more to learn. Amen. Yeah, there's always more to learn about God and, and that's only going to happen in a personal encounter and helping people to learn. For example, there are a lot of methods that, where you can learn how to be still and know that he is God. You know, learning some of those tools, those discipleship tools, is important because, you know, we actually, especially in the American church, we have a lot of people who are not well discipled in their own local churches. You know, there's the growing, you know, there's a growing movement, movements, I should say, in the body of Christ, where we're getting back to a deeper concept of discipleship.

Yep.

Yeah. Well, that tool that Trevor just mentioned, and as you're talking about, Harry, are very biblical, but as we've also discussed in this other episode, we have a lot of tools and exercises we use that are not based on scripture at all. They're very clinical in nature. They come from other areas and disciplines of science like brain science and cognitive behavioral therapy. And so for some people, they would describe that as being extra biblical or outside the Bible. So how do you explain to people our use of tools or exercises like that that we would see as being traditionally outside of Scripture?

Nick, you know, I'm. The danger for me is I'm a storyteller. But every church I've ever spoken, I.

Think by this point in the episode, most people have figured that out.

Well, the people in counseling have figured it out real quickly too. So in my poor wife have heard these stories before. But, but you know, in, in Genesis 3 and you talked about this a little bit earlier, Trevor, in Genesis 3, when God shows up in the cool of the evening, I ask congregations when I'm talking about shame, and I say, what was Adam and Eve's first response to God showing up? And almost always the congregation says in unison, they hid. But that's not what Adam tells God. You know, he says to God in Genesis 3, I was afraid. Some translations use the word I was ashamed. And the word in the original language means the fear of exposure. You know, and so undealt with sin leads to shame, which leads to secrecy, the hiding, which leads to separation. You know, the, the, the, the tools that we use are simply used to bring truth to light. And, and, and, and, and honestly speaking, there's not a tool that I use that I can't show you where it matches in the word of God. All the tools that we use are there, but. But I believe I have a systematic theology. So a part of systematic theology is the belief in natural theology, which would be equivalent to scientists. And you have to go back to Bishop usher, I think, 5th, 16th or 17th century, who decided that he, without actual healthy knowledge of the genealogies, thought he could pick the. Get the exact date of creation based on going back in the genealogies. And that became the point where there became a rift between natural theology and biblical theology.

You know, darn genealogies. Yeah, they trip us all up.

Yeah, they do. But. But there's an astrophysicist that I have appreciated over the years who, who says to. Who says in his writings. The book that really touched me was called the Fingerprint of God by Hugh Ross. And in that book, Hugh says there are two testaments to the nature of God, the Bible and creation. And when the Bible and creation are in disagreement, we're misinterpreting one manifestation of God or of the other. But the truth is, if God created the universe and if, and if the Bible is the inspired word of God, then they are going to be in unison if they're properly interpreted. And so a part of the people who usually are in opposition have a form of biblical theology saying, well, if you can't name chapter and verse, then this can't be true. And I think that I personally disagree with that. But again, every single tool, when someone has questions, and our job is to build trust with people in the clinical community. They call it a therapeutic alliance, but basically it means I have emotionally learned to trust this other person that I'm talking to. And that's at the core of what we do. And so that's why, when, when someone brings up questions, why are we doing this? Or why are we doing that? I have biblical verses I go to to help them understand why we're doing what we're doing. Yeah, because I want them to understand what's taking place and what's happening. Because without, without learning to trust somebody. And frankly, the people that come into office, whether it is the offended spouse or the person with the addictive personality, they both have learned to not trust. So helping them to build trust by being patient with them, to help them understand why. And sometimes we'll have to postpone using a certain tool until they're at a better place and where they're willing to openly risk with us in doing those tools. But it's actually a, a great way to build relationships and maintain those relationships. You know, Trevor, when we had the Smoke. Last year, I had some clients from eight, nine years ago calling to check on, make sure I was all right, you know, but that's because we don't. We're just not clinical talking heads in the appointment. We're. We're. We're believers who are walking with another believer down the road. It's kind of like Cleopas on the road to Emmaus. You know, all of a sudden, there's this dawning revelation that God is with me here in a unique and mighty way that I didn't even recognize it. Well, that's what happens for people when they go through the deeper healing processes we have. God shows up in unique ways that surprises all of us. Yeah.

I think just before we move on to the next question, just to kind of wrap up what you're saying, you said earlier in the episode that if you have something going on with your brain, you want a brain surgeon that has very specific skill sets to help you stay alive. And I don't see anywhere in scripture someone going to a brain surgeon. And so I think it's okay to make some implications there, that it's okay to use tools that help. You know, I'm thinking, I don't want to go too long on this, but I just. I think if I don't take my car to a shop and it doesn't work, I can't keep my job. If I can't keep my job, then I can't provide for my family. If I can't provide for my family, that adds stress and difficulty and then on and on and on. And so I think even though no one has taken their car to a mechanic in scripture doesn't mean I shouldn't take mine for the health of me and my family.

Yeah. Similar to that, I was thinking about a lot of the things we use in church that aren't in scripture. Scripture does not specifically talk about the pastor having an office with a desk and books on the shelves. Scripture doesn't talk about a pulpit or a baptismal font or a dunk tub or whatever you have at your church. The Bible doesn't talk about computers or cell phones, and yet we all use them. And I think most every pastor would say, oh, yeah, those are just tools that help us do the work of ministry better to reach people more effectively. To which I would say, absolutely. And that's what's happening in a peer desire group or counseling setting. These are just tools that we're using to help minister the gospel more effectively so that people understand what God is doing. In the midst of their sexual addiction. And if it's consistent with scripture, and the purpose is clearly to take people into a healthier relationship with God and others, then it's a tool that we want to use because it's there to help in the process.

So, you know, I have to admit that I was thinking that this December and January that we were going to have maybe a little drop off in counseling, which isn't true. We're actually ramping up. One week last, in December, I had eight evaluations in one week. And I wasn't. Debbie, my wife Debbie and I weren't the only counselors who were having that experience. Because we offer something that most clinicians around the world can't offer, and that is, I tell people, sure, you can be healed from an addiction without. Without pure desire. You don't have to go to pure desire, but it's like kind of like putting band aid on a cancer. You know, you can. They're still. They're still heading towards hell if they don't come to the saving knowledge of Christ. We present the healing path as a part of our walk with Christ. And when people can take these tools and recognize they're being used within the concept of a relationship with a living God, then it enhances everything. And we get to see people's lives transformed and changed. And that's the privilege, the greatest privilege at pure desire is getting to watch God sitting in the front row and watching God change lives.

Okay, so, Harry, pure desire here. We often say that reading your Bible, praying more, is more of like a trying harder approach to finding freedom from sexual addiction or even betrayal trauma. What do we mean by this? And how does our approach to recovery and healing differ from just a try harder approach?

Well, the try harder approach is based on the fact that we bring the American culture into our churches. And I can't tell you how many times people says, but it's so unproductive to slow down they want to do because they think that they have to earn their salvation, you know, and. And so it's bringing truth to, to the scripture about grace. There's a great book out now called Paul and the power of grace that is a slow read, but a delightfully rich read in scripture. But, but I would, you know, I would. I would tell people that the words that I would say have been the most powerful. What I would call, Trevor, the prophetic word of God. And that is that my pastor, when I was a young Christian, he said to me, harry, you do the possible and you let God do the impossible. And the possible was when someone comes into the counseling office and we take them through a curriculum, we have them doing these exercises. And then there is a transformation that goes well beyond their hopes and dreams of what is going to happen. Life is changing, the relationship with their spouse is changing. All of these things are falling into place. And it's. And they're beginning to recognize that it's direct, in direct relationship to the intervention of God in their lives. Not their base, not their tool of being able to perform. So we, we probably need to do more teachings on grace and mercy as it is taught in scripture instead of being focused on, I'm going to, I'm going to reveal how good I am by my works. Because as I quoted earlier, Isaiah says they're but filthy rags to God, right?

Yep.

So, Harry, you thought of this through kind of the, you know, grace and slowing down versus work and productivity. I kind of thought of it through just the lens of doing what I've always done. And if someone comes to us battling sexual addiction, yes, there's a change that needs to happen. But they're also battling some self blindness to the patterns they're stuck in, to what triggers them to what are the danger zones they get into that lead them back to relapse. The patterns of isolation they have, the shame they might be stuck in. And if all we do is teach them to read their Bible and pray more, all those other things could continue to happen. And I thought of it. It's a little bit like if someone is driving in the wrong direction, but we teach them how to brake more efficiently, you know, how to turn by, you know, steering high and make better cornering. We teach them how to use, you know, fuel more efficiently. Like all that is great, but if they're still headed in the wrong direction, it's not going to do them a whole any good.

Yeah.

And I think that's what can happen in our Christian faith. We've got all these people that are trying harder. They're reading their Bible and they're praying more, but they're continuing to slam into the same triggers and danger zones and isolation that have tripped them up a thousand times before.

That is great insight. I love that, Nick.

People need to read their Bible and they need to pray and they need an understanding of their triggers and shame and what patterns of isolation they're stuck in. So that as they read their Bible and pray more, it's into those areas where God really wants to invite change. And I just think all of that is so difficult to do if we're still stuck in isolation and trying to do it by ourself.

Yeah, I think of the it's looking at the why, not just the what. Because I think a lot of times we look at the what is going on and we address that and don't ever dive into why we're even doing it in the first place. And that's one of my favorite reasons. It's one of my favorite things, aspects, whatever you want to call it to what we do here at Pure Desire is we help people dive into the why this is going on, why you're making, making these decisions, why you feel this way and not just what you're doing.

Trevor in the addiction, in the addiction, people are really honed in to their five senses. And I believe in Second Corinthians 5, where Paul says that we live by faith and not by sight. The word sight there is not a reference to just vision, but it's a reference to the five senses. Because none of the five senses help us to detect the presence of God. And it's in the counseling office is one of the ways God uses us at Pure Desire to begin to help people begin to exercise their faith in the invisible God who doesn't speak their language. He doesn't speak language verbally. You know, I have not ever experienced an audible voice of God that someone else can verify. Yeah, I heard the voice too, Harry. Never had that experience happen. But I have had, you know, in the ways that only God can do, he does speak to us, he does communicate with us and helping people to not be so reliant on their ability to cope again. Going back to the very definition of an addiction, a compulsive, destructive, self coping behavior. We have to help them to begin to encounter that God is offering them another way. And that comes in the renewing of the mind, the transformation being changed from glory to glory into his image, which is only done by the Holy Spirit changing us into his image. Okay, sermon, that's over with.

Okay. So clearly the work of recovery is at least the way that we approach it here is first and foremost founded on the work of Christ on the cross and the empowerment of the Holy Spirit. And Harry, I think you've done an excellent job of helping us see that even in your stories in the counseling office, the Holy Spirit shows up there and gives you promptings and gives you specific information to help people. And this is the truly the exact center of our approach to helping men and women struggling with unwanted sexual behavior and betrayal trauma. Because without the work of Christ and without the empowerment of the Holy Spirit all the effort that we do means nothing. And so Harry man, a number of reasons we love you but we're just so thankful for your time, your experience and the expertise that you bring to this and just your continued work with our clients helping them really experience Christ in the counseling office. So thank you so much for what you do and for your time.

Thank you guys. Love you both.

Love you too. And wherever you're at on your journey, pure desire is here to help you take back your life from unwanted sexual behavior and betrayal trauma. If you or someone you know needs recovery and healing, go to PureDesire.org and begin the journey today. If you like this episode or are a fan of the podcast please share it with others. Make sure to check out the full episode on YouTube as well and thanks for joining us on this recovery and healing journey. And lastly, never stop being healthy.